June 6, 2021 • 43 mins
This is the second of my back-to-back double-author interviews in celebration of Women's Fiction Day. We are focusing on the diversity of stories that make up Women’s Fiction. A reminder that Women’s Fiction Day is June 8, 2021.
The Women’s Fiction Writer’s Association is planning an entire day of events, getting to know authors, some great deals on books and some nice giveaway prizes. To learn more, check out the link to the WFWA. I also have a full page of information on my website at: https://maggielynch.com/wfday2021.
Let me introduce you to the two women I’ll be talking with today.
LISA BRAXTON is an essayist, short story writer, and novelist. Her debut novel, The Talking Drum, was released in May 2020. Barely out a year, it has been racking up awards as well. In 2020 she won the Shelf Unbound Best Indie Book Award and the National Association of Black Journalists Outstanding Literary Award. Already in 2021 she has been awarded the Independent Publishers Gold Medal for Urban Fiction. You can learn more about Lisa and her books at https://lisabraxton.com/
LESLIE LEHR is a seasoned writer and essayists. Her women’s fiction includes both fiction and nonfiction. Her critically acclaimed non-fiction book, A Boob’s Life, is currently being developed for a comedy series on HBO. Her novels include: What A Mother Knows, Life Goes On, and 66 Laps. Leslie has also worked in film production and has taught for ten years at the Writers Program at UCLA. You can learn more about Leslie's career and her books at https://leslielehr.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maggie Lynch (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Dust Jackets
with Authors. Today is a seconddouble author show focusing on
the diversity of stories thatmake up women's fiction. A
reminder to you that women'sfiction day is June 8, and the
Women's Fiction WritersAssociation is planning an
entire day of events (00:23):
getting to know authors, some great deals
on books, and some nice giveawayprizes. So be sure to check the
show notes to learn all aboutthis and how to participate.
Let me introduce you to the twowomen we're talking with today.
Lisa Braxton is an essayist,short story writer and novelist.
Her debut novel The Talking Drumwas released in May 2020. Barely
(00:47):
out a year, it has been rackingup awards. In 2020, she won the
Shelf Unbound Best Indie BookAward and the National
Association of Black journalistsOutstanding Literary Award.
Already in 2021, she's beenawarded the Independent
Publishers Gold Medal for UrbanFiction. Our other guests is
(01:08):
Leslie Lehr. She is a seasonedwriter and essayist. Her women's
fiction includes both fictionand nonfiction. Her critically
acclaimed nonfiction book, ABoob's Life, is currently being
developed for a comedy series onHBO. Her novels include: What A
Mother Knows; Wife Goes On; and66 Laps. Leslie has also worked
(01:30):
in film production and hastaught for 10 years for the
Writers Program at UCLA. As youcan see, once again, we have two
powerhouse women with us.
I haven't had the chance to readany of these books. So I'm
flying a little blind based onblurbs and reviews and things
that I've researched. So please,both Leslie and Lisa, feel free
(01:53):
to correct me if I ask a sillyquestion. Or I say something
wrong. So my first question foreach of you is: When you started
writing, did you know you wantedto write women's fiction? Or did
you write and then realize itwas women's fiction? Why don't
we start with you, Leslie?
Leslie Lehr (02:13):
I still am not sure about the label of women's
fiction. I feel like when Istarted writing, I wrote things
for me that interested me. Andthat was about contemporary
women. And I do remember a guysaying, when am I going to pick
a major? Because he was writingthrillers, you know, and my
first novel was a drama. Mysecond one was more of a comedy,
(02:36):
you know about and for women.
And my third one is a thriller.
And I thought, but my major iswomen. That is my genre, I write
about women.
But I kind of feel like women'sfiction is a new title. That was
That makes total sense.
Evidently, the women's fictiona more mature outgrowth of the
old name of Chick-Lit, which wasreally condescending. And yet wh
n men write about women, it'sust fiction, you know. And to h
(02:57):
ve women's fiction on the shlf... It doesn't make me happy
And yet, to be in this organizawriters Association really
defines it as the emotionalion of women who are writing f
r each other and really undertand the quality of literature
and the quality of stories thacome out, makes me very prou
to be a writer of women's ficton. So I feel like I'm naturally
a writer of women's fictionecause I am a woman, and I wri
(03:18):
e about women. So that for mes how that works.
journey. It doesn't evennecessarily have to be a woman.
It can be a man. But I hear youon the, you know, the
(03:43):
distinction between fiction formen who write about women and
calling it women's fiction whena woman writes it. That
certainly is a vestige of secondclass citizenship. So Lisa, how
about you?
Lisa Braxton (03:57):
Well, my background is journalism. And so
I when I was decided to go aheadand finally begin writing that
novel that I've been wanting towrite since childhood, I felt I
needed to go back to grad schooland learn the nuts and bolts of
writing a novel. So while I wasat Southern New Hampshire
University, in their lowresidency program, my mentor
professors mentioned how womenare the biggest readers in the
(04:21):
country. They read much morethan men do. And if you're going
to write fiction, keep that inmind as you're writing your
story. So I did a little bit ofresearch.
There was an Associated Pressstudy that says that typically
women read nine books a year,whereas men read about five
books a year. And women in allcategories, except for history
(04:43):
and biography, are the biggestreaders. Men only read 20% of
fiction. And that goes for us,the UK, and Canada. And so it
would make sense, from amarketing standpoint, to target
women in my writing. Thinkingback, when I was a child reading
my novels, I felt that theauthors were writing to me.
(05:07):
They're writing to me, from agirl's point of view, from a
woman's point of view. And as Iwas began to write The Talking
Drum, in the back of my mind, Iwould see women in the audience,
as I'm writing this story. So Ifelt that I was writing to
women. So I knew before Istarted the first page that I
was writing to women readers.
Maggie Lynch (05:28):
Very good. I'm so glad to hear those two different
approaches, because I think itreally is representative of the
way that novelists approachthat. You know, some people just
dive in and they start writingwhat they want. And then they
figure out later, you know, whatcategory does this fit into .And
other people, like you, take avery studied approach, which is
(05:51):
one that usually works very wellfor people. That means you're a
business woman and you're awareof the market. So that's, that's
a really great approach.
So you both write from reallydifferent experiences. And so
I'd like to start with you,Lisa. From what I've read about
your story, The Talking Drum,it's set against the backdrop of
(06:13):
an urban development project andall the politics and realities
of how that is undertaken.
Usually, in my opinion, nothelpful things. But beneath it
all, what you really explain isthe theme of what it means to be
community. Can you talk a bitabout that? The politics and
realities of Urban Developmentand Community and how you
(06:34):
explore that in your book?
Lisa Braxton (06:39):
Yes, I get a lot of inspiration from my parents,
actually. They opened up aclothing store in an urban area
of Bridgeport, Connecticut, in1969. And, as a child watching
them alter clothes and sizepeople, and wait on customers, I
saw where there was more thanjust a sales transaction there.
(07:01):
There was their relationshipsforming. In fact, my parents
became friends with some oftheir customers. They became,
you know, social friends. Andsome would come into the store,
and it wasn't just to buysomething, it was to really talk
about the issues of the day,like what's going on at City
Hall,. They're tearing down thisbuilding, or, you know, how do I
get my my son into college, andthose kinds of things. So I saw
(07:22):
that community building rightbefore my eyes as a child.
And, as time went on, thefactories in Bridgeport began to
move away, shut down. And a lotof the, the workers didn't have
any place to work anymore. Andthere was a lot of increase in
crime, and also drug problems.
And people either moved away orthey got sucked into drugs. I
(07:42):
saw where the fabric of thecommunity was beginning to fray.
Partially also, because of urbanredevelopment. The city leaders
decided that the waterfront areawas to be developed, where there
used to be two and three familyhouses. The working class people
who lived there who can work inthe factories. They took those
homes by eminent domain, to usethe waterfront to attract the
(08:05):
people outside of Bridgeport andFairfield County and
Westchester, New York. Thoseareas that had money to come to
the oyster bar, or put yourtheir boat there at the Marina,
or come up to some of the sportsgames and spend ytheir money.
So it's becoming upscale in thatway. And it was very hard to see
(08:26):
that happen and see how theBridgeport my parents came to,
as African Americans from thesouth during segregation to the
promised land, to see how thepromised land was becoming
frayed. And then I also feltthat, in my 40s, when I was
finally writing this novel, Ididn't want to just write
something that was entertainingto people. I want to write
something that would make peoplethink. So people who have
(08:49):
experienced urban redevelopment,who've lost their neighborhoods,
for them to think about thesethings and talk about these
things. And for people to justnot walk away from the book and
say (08:58):
Well, that was an interesting read, but to
actually think about and talkabout the issues that we're
facing all over the countrythese days.
Maggie Lynch (09:06):
Yes. And how does does that kind of formation of
community play--again because Ihaven't been able to read your
book--in terms of how peopledeal with this situation?
Lisa Braxton (09:20):
Well, in my novel, The Talking Drum, Omar is an
African drummer. He's come tothe US on a Rotary scholarship,
and he lives in petite Africa.
It's a fictional neighborhood,in the fictional city in my in
my book. At the time, there's athreat of some of the properties
being taken by eminent domain inan immigrant neighborhood, with
(09:40):
people from different parts ofWest Africa, as well as the
Caribbean, and some LatinXindividuals as well. And he is
married to an African Americanwoman, he's from Senegal, and
she says (09:52):
Well, we need to move because they're going to take
our building. We're renting this
apartment. A he was like (09:58):
No, the US has been very good to me.
I came here on a scholarship.
And I know that Uncle Sam willnot do us wrong. So they're
having these marital problemslargely caused by the power
structure. And then his uncle,Uncle Mustafa, is like the the
mayor of petite Africa. He's theperson who's championing the
cause of let's all go down toCity Hall and protest, and storm
(10:20):
these meetings, and get thesepeople to understand that we
need to save our neighborhood.
So that's how it plays out.
And as the story goes on, yousee where there are people in
petite Africa who ended upreally suffering because of the
eminent domain. And I did a lotof research. I read a lot of
books about what happened duringthe 70s iand the 80s, with
(10:42):
eminent domain. There werepeople who didn't survive that,
who actually passed away becausethey were uprooted, pulled out
of their neighborhood. They losttheir friendships, their family,
all those; and so they justcouldn't go on. And those are
the things within the fabric ofthe neighborhood and community
that I want to express, that Idid express in my book.
Maggie Lynch (11:05):
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Leslie, I'd like to
switch to you. At least two ofyour novels appear to have more
of a suburban environment thatyour characters are in. Correct
me if I'm wrong. Again, Ihaven't been able to read any of
these books. But still,friendships and and community
(11:28):
play a big role. Can you justkind of tell me a little bit
about those? I'm particularlythinking of the descriptions for
66 laps. And I've alreadyforgotten the name of the other
one,
Leslie Lehr (11:40):
Wife Goes On. And then my most recent one was What
A Mother Knows.
Maggie Lynch (11:46):
The one, What A Mother Knows seems to be more of
a thriller or suspense. But ifyou can just kind of, you know,
talk about it, if that's, urbanor suburban and about community.
Leslie Lehr (11:56):
They're definitely more suburban, because that's
where I'm from. And for me,writing was not, I mean I always
wrote, but I never reallyintended to be a writer until
motherhood made it verydifficult to do my chosen
profession, which wasfilmmaking. And so I was always
writing on the side and homewith my first child. And so the
things that really made mestruggle, the identity issues as
(12:18):
a woman in America and clearlyan entitled middle class white
woman. I was still strugglingwith basic identity issues of
Who am I? Where do I fit in thecommunity? How do I fit in? Whe
e's the power, not with the moter? And so my questions of, y
u know, all these things realy would drive me to write essa
(12:41):
s. So I would like kind of rnt through my first couple b
oks, which were like parentingbooks. My first book was called
elcome to Club Mom, the end ofife as you know it. My edit
r c (12:51):
the adventure begins. Becau e they thought, the end of life
s you know, it was too negati e.
But I've always been challengedby motherhood and trying to live
the best life. And our countrydoes not support it as a
community, you know, parenting.
We're like, 29th in regards toparental leave, and childcare.
We have no childcare. And youknow, all this stuff that
(13:14):
relates to us as being definedby our bodies in this way. And
so, for me, I would startventing to my community. I'm in
this community of mothers thathas kind of held back as women
are not part of the overallpower community. And so I would
generally start with an essay,
and then end up thinking (13:33):
No, okay, this is expanding into a
book. And my New York Timesessay for Modern Love was
similar in terms of what's love.
It was about my breast cancerexperience, but it expanded into
kind of, I mean, weirdly, itexpanded into this book, A
Boob's Life, which is not aboutbreast cancer, but that's
certainly part of life as awoman with breasts over a period
(13:55):
of life. So for me, thecommunity, it wasn't that I
chose (13:58):
Oh, I'm gonna write about this or that. I always am
struggling with questions to mepersonally. And I grew up in a
suburb in the Midwest. And sothat's where my origin story is.
And that's, for me, that's theeasiest place to really dig down
deep into the emotional journey,as you say, that women's fiction
specializes in.
Maggie Lynch (14:21):
And I agree, and I think that's one of the reasons
that women's fiction appeals toso many people. It is that women
are speaking from a place thatthey're very familiar within
themselves. So you actually madea great segue into your
nonfiction book of Boobs Life.
And I understand that, althoughit has a humorous tone, that it
(14:44):
is not just pure humor, youknow, it's certainly a very
serious topic. And as you justsaid, you've survived breast
cancer. I have also. So thatmakes me immediately read your
book.
Lisa Braxton (14:58):
Me, too.
Leslie Lehr (14:58):
So, there you go all three of us.
Maggie Lynch (15:02):
And just the title drew me in, because breasts are
such a visible part of our bod. Breasts just kind of stand
out more, and people judge you hving to do with that. So can
ou just talk about, you know, witing that book and what you're
rying to say and also why you chse a humorous tone as as oppose
(15:23):
to more of a lament.
Leslie Lehr (15:29):
It's a memoir first, and I think that we can
relate to a personal experienceas a bonding experience for
readers. Then, from there, Iexpand into the cultural
analysis. And so the reader cankind of go on that journey and,
you hit on an exact biologicalfact that, you know, the
(15:51):
identifying body part of womenis breasts. It's the first thing
that enters a room. A man's eyesare drawn to women's breasts
within 200 milliseconds. Andthat's a biological imperative
for mating. And yet, the size ofbreasts is not relative to our
ability to how much milk youknow, our breasts make. I have
so many fun, scientific facts,but essentially, I got out of
(16:11):
the shower one night, and hadrecovered from breast cancer and
was ready for date night and hadgone through, you know, the hell
of treatment. I was finallystarting to be back and looked
in the mirror and my breastswere not...they were, they
didn't, they weren't, theydidn't match. And I was so upset
that my husband accused me ofbeing obsessed and I was like, I
(16:33):
am obsessed with breasts.
I'm a woman, howcould that be? You know, and I
think we all take us forgranted. And so I shut up, and
started watching TV with him.
It's supposed to be date night,our first night together in our
first home. We'd just beenmarried a year when I got breast
cancer. This was DavidLetterman's swan song. He's a
famous intellectual comedian andhe did a boob joke right at the
(16:53):
top of his routine. And it waslike, okay, it's not just me.
Why are they laughing? Why areboobs funny? You know, and my
husband. First I wanted toprove, do I really need to fix
them? Are they broken? Why am Iso obsessed. And I realized that
every decade of my life frombeing a little girl, right after
TV was invented, and Playboy,and training bras, and infant
(17:14):
formula was used instead ofbreast milk to feed your young.
And advertising attractingeyeballs for bigger breasts.
And then you know, breastimplants, and all this stuff,
parallelled my life exactly fromas a little girl wanting to have
breasts and be Miss America.
Then seeing the protest thing,you know, on TV. My mom is a
feminist, but it didn't reallywork for her. And then being a
(17:35):
teenager, and finally gettingbreasts and hiding them to work,
you know, and showing them todate, and using them as a
mother, and then having themsaggy and gross. And then after
divorce, my mother talking meinto getting a boob job. And
then, you know, having breastcancer. So I could define my
whole life in these stages thatmany women go through. And so I
had to see why we were obsessed.
(17:58):
And I realized by tracking mylife and using it as this
baseline, I could then expandout with the cultural analysis
of how we got, as a nation,obsessed with breasts, and we
take breasts for granted. Like,yeah, so what everyone has
boobs, sorry.
I had to change agents. It was ahard book to sell. I mean, but
yeah, we all every morning, getup and have to decide what kind
(18:21):
of bra to put on what we'regoing to do with our breasts,
Well, thank you so much forexplaining all of that. It makes
you know. And breast feed ourchildren. And breasts can kill
us. So it kind of rides thiswhole wave of what it's like to
live in a woman's body, howpolitical our bodies are in
terms of how we rate in society,and ends up being about
inclusionary feminism, which isreally equality for everyone.
And how our bodies, like yousaid, we judge ourselves. We
(18:44):
judge other people, and that wecan't really change the culture
of wanting to be beautiful. Itis part of the deal. But I think
awareness of how we're treatedbecause of our breasts,
awareness of how we jude ourselves, and also issues li
e self care, that can really hep us prevent breast cancer and h
w to help other people. So for m, I had to explore why I w
me want to read it even more.
And I think there are plenty ofs obsessed with breasts and and
then it became a why is our naton obsessed? So it's a cultu
(19:08):
al memoir, really, with pop hitory.
women who would be interested.
There are obviously a lot ofwomen who have survived breast
cancer. And those who agree withyour analysis. So I really
(19:33):
appreciate that. So, I'd like tokind of segue, both of you are
essayists. And I know, Lisa,that you've written short
stories, I'm not sure, Leslie,whether you have. So Lisa, let's
start with you. Having been ajournalist you obviously are
(19:54):
used to doing research andwriting about topics. Can you
tell me, do your essays informyour stories? Or do your stories
inform your essays? Or are theykind of two different parts of
your brain?
Lisa Braxton (20:09):
They're t really two different parts of my brain
because I my essays, some ofthem are somewhat political
about racism, discrimination. Iwrote an essay not long after
the COVID shutdown, about socialdistancing. And the headline
was (20:27):
Social Distancing is Nothing New for Black Americans.
And that was published in apublication called Cognoscenti,
which is part of a public radiostation. Its a type of you are
there online blog. And it'sthat's the way it's been. I was
thinking when social distancingcame into the vernacular, I was
thinking (20:48):
well, gee, we've been doing that for years. My husband
is African American, he alwayskeeps a distance,. If he sees a
white woman walking in front ofhim, he keeps the distance or
goes a different way. Because ifhe gets too close, then she's
going to hold on to her purse ortry to rush away from him. And
that's even happening here atour condo complex. We've been
(21:08):
here for seven years. And I dothe same thing. I sometimes I'm
well, okay, I see thiswhite person walking, they're
gonna think I'm up to something.
So I'm going to slow down or gothe other way.
Right now I live outside ofBoston. And just taking a walk,
taking a walk on the campus ofthe condo complex and hearing
(21:29):
the car doors go click clickclick like a symphony. Because
here's a black person, she'sgoing to try to break into our
car. And then I look back intothe past when my parents and I,
my sister was a toddler at thetime, were house hunting. We
(21:50):
lived in Bridgeport,Connecticut, and my parents were
interested in moving to a housein the suburbs. And I was maybe
seven or eight years old. And wetoured this house in Fairfield,
Connecticut, nice home. Andafterwards, we walked out the
front door and the entireneighborhood up and down the
street, all white, they'restanding on their lawns, all the
(22:10):
way up and down the streetstaring at us. And I said,
Mommy, why are they standingthere. And she bristled. And
then I remember the real estateagent was like, just flustered.
I don't know why this ishappening. I was too young to
really get it. And so then wegot in the car. And I noticed
(22:32):
that my mother said to my fatherin very low voice, they don't
want to us here, do they? Hesaid, No, they don't. And my
parents never moved to anotherhouse. They stayed in the same
Cape Cod style house, you know,like, never, never moved. So
those are the kinds of essaysthat I've written.
I haven't done a short story inquite some time. But to compare
(22:57):
it to The Talking Drum and thenew novel that I'm writing,
they're totally different.
They're really, reallydifferent. And I think what it
is, is that I enjoy the mentalgymnastics, of going from
something that's literallylooking at the issues of the
day, and looking at a story ofhistorical fiction. And I think
I enjoy making that leap intosomething totally different one
(23:19):
from the other. And so I wouldsay one does not feed the other.
Maggie Lynch (23:25):
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I used to do short
stories a lot. I don't anymore,but it's the same thing between
nonfiction essays and shortstories. They are very different
parts of my mind. So, Leslie,you have written, I know, quite
a few essays. I've read a coupleof them. And they do seem to be,
(23:46):
at least the ones I read, were,were in researching about women
and women's shapes and, youknow, feminist types of issues.
So there would seem to be atleast in terms of A Boob's Life,
a little more of a connectionthere. But how about in terms of
your fiction and your essays?
Leslie Lehr (24:05):
There's definitely a connection for me. I wasn't
even conscious of it until Ilooked. Actually, I was at a
conference once after breastcancer and this woman from the
Library of Congress, had all mybooks and somebody didn't show
up. So it was just about mywriting. And I, she had read all
my stuff and like connected allthese dots that I hadn't
(24:26):
noticed, which was very cool.
Except then I realized that shethought I was gonna die. And it
was like a eulogy of everythingI'd written cuz I was still, you
know, my hair was just comingback. And it was kind of creepy.
But she had pointed out thatwhen I write essays, they really
do seed. It's a nonfictionversion of what then seeds my
novel. So they are definitelysomething working out.
(24:50):
That said, the Modern Love NewYork Times article that I wrote
about, you know, thinking myhusband thought I was sexy, and
that's what attracted me andthat he still loved me when I
was bald kind of thing. Thatwas the only thing I ever
intended to write about breastcancer. I did not want to write
a book about breast cancer. Ididn't want to think about it. I
didn't take notes, didn't take ajournal, took no pictures. So it
(25:13):
was kind of ironic when I wasworking on this book that my
agent was like, oh, now you needto write more about that. That
is part of the experience ofwomen with breasts. So that's
the only time I've noticed thatconnection. All my other essays
are just stuff that bothers me.
And so then I turn it into afictional way where I can work
out that question.
(25:34):
My next book I'm working on is anovel, but it's also research
based. And so I really do likemixing, you know, the emotions
with what's going in theculture. And this book, this
memoir, was tricky, because Ihad to, you know, kind of curate
the experiences to form mythesis. It Boob's Life was
(25:56):
originally thought of as aseries of essays, a series of
chapters that could be liftedand published. And then it
seemed like it would be just abetter story to really have them
connect over my whole lifetime.
But there are like fact pages inbetween, like the history of
Playboy, the history ofpolitics. And one of the good
things about the fact that itdidn't get published
immediately, because peopledidn't know where to put it in
(26:17):
memoir or nonfiction, right.
It's hard to market. It didn'tget, you know, a publishing
deal. It had TV interest longago, oddly, but it didn't get a
publishing deal until a yearago, right before the lockdown.
And so I was able to include andexpand experiences that both of
(26:37):
my grown daughters had thatechoed mine, and also the Me,
too movement, and Time's Up, andBlack Lives Matter and the
election in the fall. I said,I'm not turning in my last my
new last chapter until December15. And I was able to really
make it a whole story.
So it is kind of short story-ishin terms of there are pretty
(26:58):
entertaining set pieces ofthings that happened to me. But
then I go into the culturalanalysis with the research part.
And then, you know, go back intoit. There's probably one in
between page that's pure littleessay, but it's just a one page
explanation of exactly why we'reobsessed. And then everything
else relates. But for me, it'svery different. I really respect
(27:18):
people into short stories. I'vetried my hand at it, and I am
just a long form story writer.
It's either essay, which ispersonal essay, or it's a novel
that's a much bigger story. So Ican make things up. Because as
you know, real life is random.
And in fiction, you get to makethings up for a reason, or you
have to write. It's definitelyfor me a working ground of my
(27:42):
next project.
Maggie Lynch (27:43):
And I agree, I know one of the things I love
about writing novels is that Iget to control the world and I
get to make things turn out howI want. In the real world it
doesn't always turn out thatway, or rarely does . One of the
things you talked about, Leslie,is identity. And how that is a
big thing for you. And Lisa, Iwould suspect in The Talking
(28:07):
Drum, that identity, at leastidentity of place, which also
has impact on our own identity,is important. So I wonder if
each of you could just talk alittle bit about identity and
searching for identity, and howthat works out in your books.
Why don't we start with you,Lisa?
Lisa Braxton (28:26):
Well, when you bring up identity, I think about
my main character, Sidney who istrying to find her place in the
world. She was in college, beganlaw school, and married the
professor. When they met he wasnot a professor in her
department, so there was noconflict there. But then he
decides that, because of racism,he did not get tenure. And so he
(28:50):
decides that he's going to quitacademia and move back to his
hometown in the urban area, portcity, and open up this
bookstore. So she marries himand she decides to go ahead and
put her law school on hold andcome back there. They were in
western Massachusetts, they moveto Eastern Massachusetts, to
start this business. So she'strying to find her way as a
(29:12):
young bride. Someone who has leda pampered life and spoiled by
her parents; and his life ismuch more gritty. So in the
meantime, as the storyprogresses, she begins to find
her voice in the marriage. Forsome time early on, he was able
to bulldoze her in somedecisions, which actually played
(29:33):
out in my mind when my parentsoperated in the clothing store.
My father would make decisionsand my mother was saying that's
not a good business decision.
And he would say, I'm the bossso what I say goes. It's like,
we're working together but we'remarried. What do we do? So my
character, Sydney, was dealingwith that at some point. She
begins to find her voice andfind where she wants to go
career wise. So in that respect,identity did play in important
(29:57):
part. I'm just thinking about myother characters. My immigrant
characters, also had identity.
Omar had to find where he wassupposed to be. He wants to be
the ambassador, the drummingAmbassador of the world. He
introduces African drumming tothat community, because
historically at that time, therewere not very many African
(30:18):
drummers in the US. And the onesthat came over sometimes they
did very well. But sometimes,for the African American
community, they were notaccepted. Because some African
Americans would say it wasjungle music, we want nothing to
do with it. So it was duringthat era. So Omar's trying to
find his place and where he fitsin, and where he could be
(30:41):
successful. So I would say inthose respects, and there are
other characters, too, who wereon their journeys, as well. But
those are a couple of examples.
Maggie Lynch (30:49):
Great! And can you, Leslie, kind of talk about,
particularly in your fiction,you know, how that journey of
identities important?
Leslie Lehr (30:58):
Yes,. Well, obviously, my first nonfiction
book was about kind of what thef*ck is... What is it like to be
a mom when I was a career woman?
And where am I? What'shappening? I wrote a movie that
came out about the same time, anindependent film about a young
sheltered woman who wonderedwhat would it be like to be a
worldly, wealthy woman. That wasactually a murder mystery. And
then my first novel, 66 Laps,the premise was about a young
new mom at home thinking (31:22):
who am I without my career? This wasn't
what I planned. Is my husbandcheating on me? I don't know.
And then the other one was WifeGoes On. It is about a woman who
makes three friends with otherwomen who are getting a divorce.
It asks who are you if you'renot married, when your identity
was I'm this mother or marriedwoman. And suddenly, you know,
(31:44):
this drastic change in yourlife. And then What A Mother
Knows was a similar search ofthis woman who was actually a
busy career woman, but a motherfirst. And when her daughter
disappears, and she's in his caraccident, and accused of murder,
and can't find her daughter, whoknows what happened, and what
did she do? And, you know, it'slike, Who am I without my
(32:07):
daughter? And how do I matter?
What did I do to be a goodmother? You know, all those kind
of questions of identity. Andthen my boobs book, seriously,
is about how breasts definewomen in so many ways, through
so many parts of our lives inways that the whole culture
takes for granted. So for me,it's all about gender identity,
(32:30):
and sexual roles, and you know,how the female is treated
because of this, this oneparticular body part that
represents us and, you know, byour gender. So it's a, it's all
about who am I? And why am Ijere? What's my purpose?
Maggie Lynch (32:47):
I think for many women, that is an ongoing
question throughout their life,(cough) just because also of the
roles. But we change throughoutlife, you know. Who we are as a
young woman and who we are as amother is different, or in
middle age, or in retirementlike I am.
Leslie Lehr (33:11):
And our bodies are, exactly, but also how the
culture likes to see us. Whetherit's racial, or gender, or just
our identity. Women are kind ofthe old Freudian, Madonna whore,
our bodies make us mothers andsweet, or sexy and tacky, or you
know. But for real women we'revery complex. And we have so
(33:32):
many other roles. And I thinkthat's part of why there's so
many issues of Who am I now? Andthen and, you know, what is the
stage of my life means to me asa person, you know. How's my
womanhood defined?
Maggie Lynch (33:45):
Oh, really wonderful. I have one final
question before we close today.
And that is what's coming upnext for each of you. Are you
writing another book? Working ona movie? What can we expect over
the next year or so? Lisa, howabout you?
Lisa Braxton (34:03):
I have been working for several years now on
a second novel. This one goesfurther back in history to the
1850s in Boston, the Beacon Hillarea. Boston, where you have
some fugitive slaves who nowhave been given the right to be
free people of color. Some ofthem are, were in hiding, but
(34:23):
they they kind of put that asideand they're they're working as
entrepreneurs and, you know,working nine to five jobs, then
you have some people who areslave catchers coming through
who are trying to find theseslaves, and you have
abolitionists, and there was alot of activity going on and
Beacon Hill, and there was ablack neighborhood there at one
(34:45):
time. And that hasn't beenexplored very much in fiction.
So that's something I'm workingon. I'm really enjoying the
process of digging back inhistory to see what it was like
back then.
Maggie Lynch (34:55):
Now that sounds very, very interesting. And I
also will be interested to seehow history informs people's
journey even into the present.
Lisa Braxton (35:11):
Yeah, I need to make it relatable to
contemporary audiences.
Definitely.
Maggie Lynch (35:15):
And, Leslie, what's coming up next for you?
Leslie Lehr (35:18):
Well, the audio book just came out two weeks
ago, and I narrated it. So nextI gotta listen to it, see how it
is to hear the story, when I wascrying or laughing or whatever.
And then I'm starting to speakto universities, hoping the book
is used as a text for GenderStudies. And the, you know,
television show is indevelopment, or in the pilot
stage. And that's a long ordeal.
You know, hopefully, that willreally happen. And I'll be
(35:42):
executive producer. So I'll getto have a role in who plays me
and what my boobs say. And thenthe paperback comes out next
year. But honestly, right now,I'm doing so much promotion from
this book. It's very weird tohave a COVID book. I mean, the
whole thing came out, andeverything I've done is online.
But I'm very eager to get backto what I was working on. I am
(36:05):
working on another novel. And ithas a lot of the same themes of
identity. It has to do with bothrace and gender and
relationships in the late 60s.
And it's a book that I've beenwanting to write forever. And
finally, enough people are dyingthat I can write it. I can
fictionalize it to actually haveall their points of view and
really explore the dynamicsfurther. So I'm eager to get
(36:28):
back to that. And I think theboobs obsession is my piece out
there, my mission in the worldfor women to stop being so
judgmental of ourselves andpractice better self care, and,
you know, love our bodies, evenwhen they're not prepubescent.
And to be more empowered and,you know, fight for legislation
that's going to help us. I feellike this is a book that I'm
(36:50):
going to always be promoting andtrying to get the message out.
And every woman needs to get amammogram. It is going to be one
woman every day, good for me. Iwork with stand up to cancer and
breast disease. So it's kind ofmy evergreen mission book.
And then the next book will be alot of fun exploring this
period, and same dynamics. Andas you were saying, Lisa, I
(37:12):
think the issues--and I'mexploring the late 60s, and a
lot of it is based on real stuffthat happened--are still exactly
what's still happening today,We're still talking about
reparations. We're still havingissues of political, you know,
who's in charge and who's notand how, you know, where the
power lies. And the love and thebetrayal of relationships. And I
(37:34):
do think that as much as we'vemade progress in women's
fiction, for the basis of thestories, we're all still back in
Sense and Sensibility, And allthe these same themes are still
relevant. So by going backwards,we're just giving people another
another angle to see what'shappening today in our lives. We
are still people who have thesame emotions and needs for
(37:57):
independence and liberation andpower. And, you know, love.
Lisa Braxton (38:01):
So let me let me ask you, Leslie, really quickly,
how does a writer get a dealwith HBO? How does that happen?
Leslie Lehr (38:07):
That was total luck! You know, I've been a
screenwriter before. I'm in theGuild. But I haven't written
screenplays for a long time.
Because I found, as a woman, itwas incredibly difficult. I was
in production for a long time.
Nobody wanted my stories. Andthen I thought, oh, write books
and maybe they'll get picked up.
I did sell a couple ofscreenplays. But this was
(38:27):
somebody who I knew by firstname ain a parenting group. I
was actually helping her withher writing. I'm a writing
consultant. I work with TrilbyWriters Studio, and I help
people write pitch letters and,and proposals. And I was reading
her book for free, and just gaveher some notes, because she was
a friend that I knew. And so she
said (38:49):
Let me read what you're writing. And I gave her his
book. It did not sell in theproposal. And so finally I was
frustrated. And I just wrote thewhole book. And so I gave her
draft even before I sent it tomy agent. And she loved it and
said, You know, I know somepeople that I can shop it around
to. And my agent was like, No,don't do that! And I was like,
(39:10):
what I got to lose, you know.
Usually it's a best seller thatgets this treatment. I've never
had a best seller. I always getpublished, you know, but I'd
love to have a best seller. Butmeanwhile, she did know some
people and got it to Salma Hayekwho loved it. So Salma Hayek and
Dolly Parton, for me, are theboob heroes of the world. These
are major feminists working forthe greater good and use their
(39:31):
boobs for power. So yeah, it wasjust you know, great.
Everything I've really sold haskind of been that way, where
it's just a matter of talking topeople and building
relationships and takingchances. So it was just a lucky
thing and she believed in it.
Aand honestly, when I thought isthis a stupid book to write you
know, in the throes ofrejections, her belief in it
kept me going. And like she'sbeen working for free still,
(39:54):
unless it happens, you know,unless it actually gets made and
is on the air. So it gave me alot of faith. And so it was just
one of those weird, Luckythings, you know. This whole
book was neem like that night.
This book has been a very oddjourney. And so I want to just
believe that it was meant to beand hopefully will help some
(40:15):
people. But um, there's, I mean,I would say your book has won a
bunch of awards. So you couldprobably have your agent or your
publisher, right now get it inthe pipeline. They want a lot of
products, and you could do theformal away and get a film agent
for it. And I'd be happy torefer you to mine. So I got them
after the fact, though. I neverdid anything the right way. But
(40:38):
now I do have a lawyer in mycorner and things like that. And
it's just.. there's so much luckinvolved, really. So I'm just
this one. So far, I've beenlucky. We'll see. We'll see if
it sells the works. I don'tknow, my baby is the book.
Whatever else happens is gravy,you know,
Lisa Braxton (40:54):
So just having the right connections, and just
timing and luck.
Leslie Lehr (40:56):
And not even having correct connections. But making
connections, talking about it,trying to be out there. And
believing in yourself, for me,is really hard. And like, Who
cares? Nobody's wanting to hearabout boobs. And suddenly,
everyone was caring about boobs.
And it's so it's like, yeah,see, I thought so. But your,
your book is fantastic. And I'msure that, you know, if you just
(41:16):
keep making the phone calls andconnecting with people, it's,
you know, you'll be there too.
And, and then then the next bookwill be easier.
Maggie Lynch (41:29):
Lisa, that's an invitation from Leslie for you
to take advantage of her and herconnections. You have to do
that. Because there really is alot of need for content because
there's so much cable now. Soit's not just you know, for
network television, it's notjust the big studios. And, for
(41:51):
that matter, I mean, you know,you have Netflix, and everyone's
now coming up with originalcontent like Netflix, Amazon,
Apple TV. So there's a lot ofplaces to sell. And you just
need to find some people whoknow where all those places are.
Leslie Lehr (42:04):
Somebody who loves your project.
Maggie Lynch (42:08):
So, we've run out of time for today. So let me
thank both of you, truly, forparticipating in this special
conversation in celebration ofwomen's fiction. It's been a
pleasure getting to know you andyour books.
Leslie Lehr (42:22):
No, thank you so much. It's really an honor. I
remember when the first foundersof the women's fiction
Association, you know, foundedit, and it's been just wonderful
to see it grow and be a part ofit. So thank you.
Maggie Lynch (42:35):
Thank you. You're quite welcome. And to my
listening audience, thank youfor listening to Dust Jackets:
Conversations with Authors.
Don't forget to check the shownotes for everything happening
on Women's Fiction Day, June8th. And also in the notes will
be things about how to contactboth of these authors, learn
more about their books, andwhat's going on in their lives.
See you next time.
Hello, and welcome to Dust Jackets
with Authors. Today is a seconddouble author show focusing on
the diversity of stories thatmake up women's fiction. A
reminder to you that women'sfiction day is June 8, and the
Women's Fiction WritersAssociation is planning an
entire day of events (00:23):
getting to know authors, some great deals
on books, and some nice giveawayprizes. So be sure to check the
show notes to learn all aboutthis and how to participate.
Let me introduce you to the twowomen we're talking with today.
Lisa Braxton is an essayist,short story writer and novelist.
Her debut novel The Talking Drumwas released in May 2020. Barely
(00:47):
out a year, it has been rackingup awards. In 2020, she won the
Shelf Unbound Best Indie BookAward and the National
Association of Black journalistsOutstanding Literary Award.
Already in 2021, she's beenawarded the Independent
Publishers Gold Medal for UrbanFiction. Our other guests is
(01:08):
Leslie Lehr. She is a seasonedwriter and essayist. Her women's
fiction includes both fictionand nonfiction. Her critically
acclaimed nonfiction book, ABoob's Life, is currently being
developed for a comedy series onHBO. Her novels include: What A
Mother Knows; Wife Goes On; and66 Laps. Leslie has also worked
(01:30):
in film production and hastaught for 10 years for the
Writers Program at UCLA. As youcan see, once again, we have two
powerhouse women with us.
I haven't had the chance to readany of these books. So I'm
flying a little blind based onblurbs and reviews and things
that I've researched. So please,both Leslie and Lisa, feel free
(01:53):
to correct me if I ask a sillyquestion. Or I say something
wrong. So my first question foreach of you is: When you started
writing, did you know you wantedto write women's fiction? Or did
you write and then realize itwas women's fiction? Why don't
we start with you, Leslie?
Leslie Lehr (02:13):
I still am not sure about the label of women's
fiction. I feel like when Istarted writing, I wrote things
for me that interested me. Andthat was about contemporary
women. And I do remember a guysaying, when am I going to pick
a major? Because he was writingthrillers, you know, and my
first novel was a drama. Mysecond one was more of a comedy,
(02:36):
you know about and for women.
And my third one is a thriller.
And I thought, but my major iswomen. That is my genre, I write
about women.
But I kind of feel like women'sfiction is a new title. That was
That makes total sense.
Evidently, the women's fictiona more mature outgrowth of the
old name of Chick-Lit, which wasreally condescending. And yet wh
n men write about women, it'sust fiction, you know. And to h
(02:57):
ve women's fiction on the shlf... It doesn't make me happy
And yet, to be in this organizawriters Association really
defines it as the emotionalion of women who are writing f
r each other and really undertand the quality of literature
and the quality of stories thacome out, makes me very prou
to be a writer of women's ficton. So I feel like I'm naturally
a writer of women's fictionecause I am a woman, and I wri
(03:18):
e about women. So that for mes how that works.
journey. It doesn't evennecessarily have to be a woman.
It can be a man. But I hear youon the, you know, the
(03:43):
distinction between fiction formen who write about women and
calling it women's fiction whena woman writes it. That
certainly is a vestige of secondclass citizenship. So Lisa, how
about you?
Lisa Braxton (03:57):
Well, my background is journalism. And so
I when I was decided to go aheadand finally begin writing that
novel that I've been wanting towrite since childhood, I felt I
needed to go back to grad schooland learn the nuts and bolts of
writing a novel. So while I wasat Southern New Hampshire
University, in their lowresidency program, my mentor
professors mentioned how womenare the biggest readers in the
(04:21):
country. They read much morethan men do. And if you're going
to write fiction, keep that inmind as you're writing your
story. So I did a little bit ofresearch.
There was an Associated Pressstudy that says that typically
women read nine books a year,whereas men read about five
books a year. And women in allcategories, except for history
(04:43):
and biography, are the biggestreaders. Men only read 20% of
fiction. And that goes for us,the UK, and Canada. And so it
would make sense, from amarketing standpoint, to target
women in my writing. Thinkingback, when I was a child reading
my novels, I felt that theauthors were writing to me.
(05:07):
They're writing to me, from agirl's point of view, from a
woman's point of view. And as Iwas began to write The Talking
Drum, in the back of my mind, Iwould see women in the audience,
as I'm writing this story. So Ifelt that I was writing to
women. So I knew before Istarted the first page that I
was writing to women readers.
Maggie Lynch (05:28):
Very good. I'm so glad to hear those two different
approaches, because I think itreally is representative of the
way that novelists approachthat. You know, some people just
dive in and they start writingwhat they want. And then they
figure out later, you know, whatcategory does this fit into .And
other people, like you, take avery studied approach, which is
(05:51):
one that usually works very wellfor people. That means you're a
business woman and you're awareof the market. So that's, that's
a really great approach.
So you both write from reallydifferent experiences. And so
I'd like to start with you,Lisa. From what I've read about
your story, The Talking Drum,it's set against the backdrop of
(06:13):
an urban development project andall the politics and realities
of how that is undertaken.
Usually, in my opinion, nothelpful things. But beneath it
all, what you really explain isthe theme of what it means to be
community. Can you talk a bitabout that? The politics and
realities of Urban Developmentand Community and how you
(06:34):
explore that in your book?
Lisa Braxton (06:39):
Yes, I get a lot of inspiration from my parents,
actually. They opened up aclothing store in an urban area
of Bridgeport, Connecticut, in1969. And, as a child watching
them alter clothes and sizepeople, and wait on customers, I
saw where there was more thanjust a sales transaction there.
(07:01):
There was their relationshipsforming. In fact, my parents
became friends with some oftheir customers. They became,
you know, social friends. Andsome would come into the store,
and it wasn't just to buysomething, it was to really talk
about the issues of the day,like what's going on at City
Hall,. They're tearing down thisbuilding, or, you know, how do I
get my my son into college, andthose kinds of things. So I saw
(07:22):
that community building rightbefore my eyes as a child.
And, as time went on, thefactories in Bridgeport began to
move away, shut down. And a lotof the, the workers didn't have
any place to work anymore. Andthere was a lot of increase in
crime, and also drug problems.
And people either moved away orthey got sucked into drugs. I
(07:42):
saw where the fabric of thecommunity was beginning to fray.
Partially also, because of urbanredevelopment. The city leaders
decided that the waterfront areawas to be developed, where there
used to be two and three familyhouses. The working class people
who lived there who can work inthe factories. They took those
homes by eminent domain, to usethe waterfront to attract the
(08:05):
people outside of Bridgeport andFairfield County and
Westchester, New York. Thoseareas that had money to come to
the oyster bar, or put yourtheir boat there at the Marina,
or come up to some of the sportsgames and spend ytheir money.
So it's becoming upscale in thatway. And it was very hard to see
(08:26):
that happen and see how theBridgeport my parents came to,
as African Americans from thesouth during segregation to the
promised land, to see how thepromised land was becoming
frayed. And then I also feltthat, in my 40s, when I was
finally writing this novel, Ididn't want to just write
something that was entertainingto people. I want to write
something that would make peoplethink. So people who have
(08:49):
experienced urban redevelopment,who've lost their neighborhoods,
for them to think about thesethings and talk about these
things. And for people to justnot walk away from the book and
say (08:58):
Well, that was an interesting read, but to
actually think about and talkabout the issues that we're
facing all over the countrythese days.
Maggie Lynch (09:06):
Yes. And how does does that kind of formation of
community play--again because Ihaven't been able to read your
book--in terms of how peopledeal with this situation?
Lisa Braxton (09:20):
Well, in my novel, The Talking Drum, Omar is an
African drummer. He's come tothe US on a Rotary scholarship,
and he lives in petite Africa.
It's a fictional neighborhood,in the fictional city in my in
my book. At the time, there's athreat of some of the properties
being taken by eminent domain inan immigrant neighborhood, with
(09:40):
people from different parts ofWest Africa, as well as the
Caribbean, and some LatinXindividuals as well. And he is
married to an African Americanwoman, he's from Senegal, and
she says (09:52):
Well, we need to move because they're going to take
our building. We're renting this
apartment. A he was like (09:58):
No, the US has been very good to me.
I came here on a scholarship.
And I know that Uncle Sam willnot do us wrong. So they're
having these marital problemslargely caused by the power
structure. And then his uncle,Uncle Mustafa, is like the the
mayor of petite Africa. He's theperson who's championing the
cause of let's all go down toCity Hall and protest, and storm
(10:20):
these meetings, and get thesepeople to understand that we
need to save our neighborhood.
So that's how it plays out.
And as the story goes on, yousee where there are people in
petite Africa who ended upreally suffering because of the
eminent domain. And I did a lotof research. I read a lot of
books about what happened duringthe 70s iand the 80s, with
(10:42):
eminent domain. There werepeople who didn't survive that,
who actually passed away becausethey were uprooted, pulled out
of their neighborhood. They losttheir friendships, their family,
all those; and so they justcouldn't go on. And those are
the things within the fabric ofthe neighborhood and community
that I want to express, that Idid express in my book.
Maggie Lynch (11:05):
Wonderful. Thank you so much. Leslie, I'd like to
switch to you. At least two ofyour novels appear to have more
of a suburban environment thatyour characters are in. Correct
me if I'm wrong. Again, Ihaven't been able to read any of
these books. But still,friendships and and community
(11:28):
play a big role. Can you justkind of tell me a little bit
about those? I'm particularlythinking of the descriptions for
66 laps. And I've alreadyforgotten the name of the other
one,
Leslie Lehr (11:40):
Wife Goes On. And then my most recent one was What
A Mother Knows.
Maggie Lynch (11:46):
The one, What A Mother Knows seems to be more of
a thriller or suspense. But ifyou can just kind of, you know,
talk about it, if that's, urbanor suburban and about community.
Leslie Lehr (11:56):
They're definitely more suburban, because that's
where I'm from. And for me,writing was not, I mean I always
wrote, but I never reallyintended to be a writer until
motherhood made it verydifficult to do my chosen
profession, which wasfilmmaking. And so I was always
writing on the side and homewith my first child. And so the
things that really made mestruggle, the identity issues as
(12:18):
a woman in America and clearlyan entitled middle class white
woman. I was still strugglingwith basic identity issues of
Who am I? Where do I fit in thecommunity? How do I fit in? Whe
e's the power, not with the moter? And so my questions of, y
u know, all these things realy would drive me to write essa
(12:41):
s. So I would like kind of rnt through my first couple b
oks, which were like parentingbooks. My first book was called
elcome to Club Mom, the end ofife as you know it. My edit
r c (12:51):
the adventure begins. Becau e they thought, the end of life
s you know, it was too negati e.
But I've always been challengedby motherhood and trying to live
the best life. And our countrydoes not support it as a
community, you know, parenting.
We're like, 29th in regards toparental leave, and childcare.
We have no childcare. And youknow, all this stuff that
(13:14):
relates to us as being definedby our bodies in this way. And
so, for me, I would startventing to my community. I'm in
this community of mothers thathas kind of held back as women
are not part of the overallpower community. And so I would
generally start with an essay,
and then end up thinking (13:33):
No, okay, this is expanding into a
book. And my New York Timesessay for Modern Love was
similar in terms of what's love.
It was about my breast cancerexperience, but it expanded into
kind of, I mean, weirdly, itexpanded into this book, A
Boob's Life, which is not aboutbreast cancer, but that's
certainly part of life as awoman with breasts over a period
(13:55):
of life. So for me, thecommunity, it wasn't that I
chose (13:58):
Oh, I'm gonna write about this or that. I always am
struggling with questions to mepersonally. And I grew up in a
suburb in the Midwest. And sothat's where my origin story is.
And that's, for me, that's theeasiest place to really dig down
deep into the emotional journey,as you say, that women's fiction
specializes in.
Maggie Lynch (14:21):
And I agree, and I think that's one of the reasons
that women's fiction appeals toso many people. It is that women
are speaking from a place thatthey're very familiar within
themselves. So you actually madea great segue into your
nonfiction book of Boobs Life.
And I understand that, althoughit has a humorous tone, that it
(14:44):
is not just pure humor, youknow, it's certainly a very
serious topic. And as you justsaid, you've survived breast
cancer. I have also. So thatmakes me immediately read your
book.
Lisa Braxton (14:58):
Me, too.
Leslie Lehr (14:58):
So, there you go all three of us.
Maggie Lynch (15:02):
And just the title drew me in, because breasts are
such a visible part of our bod. Breasts just kind of stand
out more, and people judge you hving to do with that. So can
ou just talk about, you know, witing that book and what you're
rying to say and also why you chse a humorous tone as as oppose
(15:23):
to more of a lament.
Leslie Lehr (15:29):
It's a memoir first, and I think that we can
relate to a personal experienceas a bonding experience for
readers. Then, from there, Iexpand into the cultural
analysis. And so the reader cankind of go on that journey and,
you hit on an exact biologicalfact that, you know, the
(15:51):
identifying body part of womenis breasts. It's the first thing
that enters a room. A man's eyesare drawn to women's breasts
within 200 milliseconds. Andthat's a biological imperative
for mating. And yet, the size ofbreasts is not relative to our
ability to how much milk youknow, our breasts make. I have
so many fun, scientific facts,but essentially, I got out of
(16:11):
the shower one night, and hadrecovered from breast cancer and
was ready for date night and hadgone through, you know, the hell
of treatment. I was finallystarting to be back and looked
in the mirror and my breastswere not...they were, they
didn't, they weren't, theydidn't match. And I was so upset
that my husband accused me ofbeing obsessed and I was like, I
(16:33):
am obsessed with breasts.
I'm a woman, howcould that be? You know, and I
think we all take us forgranted. And so I shut up, and
started watching TV with him.
It's supposed to be date night,our first night together in our
first home. We'd just beenmarried a year when I got breast
cancer. This was DavidLetterman's swan song. He's a
famous intellectual comedian andhe did a boob joke right at the
(16:53):
top of his routine. And it waslike, okay, it's not just me.
Why are they laughing? Why areboobs funny? You know, and my
husband. First I wanted toprove, do I really need to fix
them? Are they broken? Why am Iso obsessed. And I realized that
every decade of my life frombeing a little girl, right after
TV was invented, and Playboy,and training bras, and infant
(17:14):
formula was used instead ofbreast milk to feed your young.
And advertising attractingeyeballs for bigger breasts.
And then you know, breastimplants, and all this stuff,
parallelled my life exactly fromas a little girl wanting to have
breasts and be Miss America.
Then seeing the protest thing,you know, on TV. My mom is a
feminist, but it didn't reallywork for her. And then being a
(17:35):
teenager, and finally gettingbreasts and hiding them to work,
you know, and showing them todate, and using them as a
mother, and then having themsaggy and gross. And then after
divorce, my mother talking meinto getting a boob job. And
then, you know, having breastcancer. So I could define my
whole life in these stages thatmany women go through. And so I
had to see why we were obsessed.
(17:58):
And I realized by tracking mylife and using it as this
baseline, I could then expandout with the cultural analysis
of how we got, as a nation,obsessed with breasts, and we
take breasts for granted. Like,yeah, so what everyone has
boobs, sorry.
I had to change agents. It was ahard book to sell. I mean, but
yeah, we all every morning, getup and have to decide what kind
(18:21):
of bra to put on what we'regoing to do with our breasts,
Well, thank you so much forexplaining all of that. It makes
you know. And breast feed ourchildren. And breasts can kill
us. So it kind of rides thiswhole wave of what it's like to
live in a woman's body, howpolitical our bodies are in
terms of how we rate in society,and ends up being about
inclusionary feminism, which isreally equality for everyone.
And how our bodies, like yousaid, we judge ourselves. We
(18:44):
judge other people, and that wecan't really change the culture
of wanting to be beautiful. Itis part of the deal. But I think
awareness of how we're treatedbecause of our breasts,
awareness of how we jude ourselves, and also issues li
e self care, that can really hep us prevent breast cancer and h
w to help other people. So for m, I had to explore why I w
me want to read it even more.
And I think there are plenty ofs obsessed with breasts and and
then it became a why is our naton obsessed? So it's a cultu
(19:08):
al memoir, really, with pop hitory.
women who would be interested.
There are obviously a lot ofwomen who have survived breast
cancer. And those who agree withyour analysis. So I really
(19:33):
appreciate that. So, I'd like tokind of segue, both of you are
essayists. And I know, Lisa,that you've written short
stories, I'm not sure, Leslie,whether you have. So Lisa, let's
start with you. Having been ajournalist you obviously are
(19:54):
used to doing research andwriting about topics. Can you
tell me, do your essays informyour stories? Or do your stories
inform your essays? Or are theykind of two different parts of
your brain?
Lisa Braxton (20:09):
They're t really two different parts of my brain
because I my essays, some ofthem are somewhat political
about racism, discrimination. Iwrote an essay not long after
the COVID shutdown, about socialdistancing. And the headline
was (20:27):
Social Distancing is Nothing New for Black Americans.
And that was published in apublication called Cognoscenti,
which is part of a public radiostation. Its a type of you are
there online blog. And it'sthat's the way it's been. I was
thinking when social distancingcame into the vernacular, I was
thinking (20:48):
well, gee, we've been doing that for years. My husband
is African American, he alwayskeeps a distance,. If he sees a
white woman walking in front ofhim, he keeps the distance or
goes a different way. Because ifhe gets too close, then she's
going to hold on to her purse ortry to rush away from him. And
that's even happening here atour condo complex. We've been
(21:08):
here for seven years. And I dothe same thing. I sometimes I'm
well, okay, I see thiswhite person walking, they're
gonna think I'm up to something.
So I'm going to slow down or gothe other way.
Right now I live outside ofBoston. And just taking a walk,
taking a walk on the campus ofthe condo complex and hearing
(21:29):
the car doors go click clickclick like a symphony. Because
here's a black person, she'sgoing to try to break into our
car. And then I look back intothe past when my parents and I,
my sister was a toddler at thetime, were house hunting. We
(21:50):
lived in Bridgeport,Connecticut, and my parents were
interested in moving to a housein the suburbs. And I was maybe
seven or eight years old. And wetoured this house in Fairfield,
Connecticut, nice home. Andafterwards, we walked out the
front door and the entireneighborhood up and down the
street, all white, they'restanding on their lawns, all the
(22:10):
way up and down the streetstaring at us. And I said,
Mommy, why are they standingthere. And she bristled. And
then I remember the real estateagent was like, just flustered.
I don't know why this ishappening. I was too young to
really get it. And so then wegot in the car. And I noticed
(22:32):
that my mother said to my fatherin very low voice, they don't
want to us here, do they? Hesaid, No, they don't. And my
parents never moved to anotherhouse. They stayed in the same
Cape Cod style house, you know,like, never, never moved. So
those are the kinds of essaysthat I've written.
I haven't done a short story inquite some time. But to compare
(22:57):
it to The Talking Drum and thenew novel that I'm writing,
they're totally different.
They're really, reallydifferent. And I think what it
is, is that I enjoy the mentalgymnastics, of going from
something that's literallylooking at the issues of the
day, and looking at a story ofhistorical fiction. And I think
I enjoy making that leap intosomething totally different one
(23:19):
from the other. And so I wouldsay one does not feed the other.
Maggie Lynch (23:25):
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I used to do short
stories a lot. I don't anymore,but it's the same thing between
nonfiction essays and shortstories. They are very different
parts of my mind. So, Leslie,you have written, I know, quite
a few essays. I've read a coupleof them. And they do seem to be,
(23:46):
at least the ones I read, were,were in researching about women
and women's shapes and, youknow, feminist types of issues.
So there would seem to be atleast in terms of A Boob's Life,
a little more of a connectionthere. But how about in terms of
your fiction and your essays?
Leslie Lehr (24:05):
There's definitely a connection for me. I wasn't
even conscious of it until Ilooked. Actually, I was at a
conference once after breastcancer and this woman from the
Library of Congress, had all mybooks and somebody didn't show
up. So it was just about mywriting. And I, she had read all
my stuff and like connected allthese dots that I hadn't
(24:26):
noticed, which was very cool.
Except then I realized that shethought I was gonna die. And it
was like a eulogy of everythingI'd written cuz I was still, you
know, my hair was just comingback. And it was kind of creepy.
But she had pointed out thatwhen I write essays, they really
do seed. It's a nonfictionversion of what then seeds my
novel. So they are definitelysomething working out.
(24:50):
That said, the Modern Love NewYork Times article that I wrote
about, you know, thinking myhusband thought I was sexy, and
that's what attracted me andthat he still loved me when I
was bald kind of thing. Thatwas the only thing I ever
intended to write about breastcancer. I did not want to write
a book about breast cancer. Ididn't want to think about it. I
didn't take notes, didn't take ajournal, took no pictures. So it
(25:13):
was kind of ironic when I wasworking on this book that my
agent was like, oh, now you needto write more about that. That
is part of the experience ofwomen with breasts. So that's
the only time I've noticed thatconnection. All my other essays
are just stuff that bothers me.
And so then I turn it into afictional way where I can work
out that question.
(25:34):
My next book I'm working on is anovel, but it's also research
based. And so I really do likemixing, you know, the emotions
with what's going in theculture. And this book, this
memoir, was tricky, because Ihad to, you know, kind of curate
the experiences to form mythesis. It Boob's Life was
(25:56):
originally thought of as aseries of essays, a series of
chapters that could be liftedand published. And then it
seemed like it would be just abetter story to really have them
connect over my whole lifetime.
But there are like fact pages inbetween, like the history of
Playboy, the history ofpolitics. And one of the good
things about the fact that itdidn't get published
immediately, because peopledidn't know where to put it in
(26:17):
memoir or nonfiction, right.
It's hard to market. It didn'tget, you know, a publishing
deal. It had TV interest longago, oddly, but it didn't get a
publishing deal until a yearago, right before the lockdown.
And so I was able to include andexpand experiences that both of
(26:37):
my grown daughters had thatechoed mine, and also the Me,
too movement, and Time's Up, andBlack Lives Matter and the
election in the fall. I said,I'm not turning in my last my
new last chapter until December15. And I was able to really
make it a whole story.
So it is kind of short story-ishin terms of there are pretty
(26:58):
entertaining set pieces ofthings that happened to me. But
then I go into the culturalanalysis with the research part.
And then, you know, go back intoit. There's probably one in
between page that's pure littleessay, but it's just a one page
explanation of exactly why we'reobsessed. And then everything
else relates. But for me, it'svery different. I really respect
(27:18):
people into short stories. I'vetried my hand at it, and I am
just a long form story writer.
It's either essay, which ispersonal essay, or it's a novel
that's a much bigger story. So Ican make things up. Because as
you know, real life is random.
And in fiction, you get to makethings up for a reason, or you
have to write. It's definitelyfor me a working ground of my
(27:42):
next project.
Maggie Lynch (27:43):
And I agree, I know one of the things I love
about writing novels is that Iget to control the world and I
get to make things turn out howI want. In the real world it
doesn't always turn out thatway, or rarely does . One of the
things you talked about, Leslie,is identity. And how that is a
big thing for you. And Lisa, Iwould suspect in The Talking
(28:07):
Drum, that identity, at leastidentity of place, which also
has impact on our own identity,is important. So I wonder if
each of you could just talk alittle bit about identity and
searching for identity, and howthat works out in your books.
Why don't we start with you,Lisa?
Lisa Braxton (28:26):
Well, when you bring up identity, I think about
my main character, Sidney who istrying to find her place in the
world. She was in college, beganlaw school, and married the
professor. When they met he wasnot a professor in her
department, so there was noconflict there. But then he
decides that, because of racism,he did not get tenure. And so he
(28:50):
decides that he's going to quitacademia and move back to his
hometown in the urban area, portcity, and open up this
bookstore. So she marries himand she decides to go ahead and
put her law school on hold andcome back there. They were in
western Massachusetts, they moveto Eastern Massachusetts, to
start this business. So she'strying to find her way as a
(29:12):
young bride. Someone who has leda pampered life and spoiled by
her parents; and his life ismuch more gritty. So in the
meantime, as the storyprogresses, she begins to find
her voice in the marriage. Forsome time early on, he was able
to bulldoze her in somedecisions, which actually played
(29:33):
out in my mind when my parentsoperated in the clothing store.
My father would make decisionsand my mother was saying that's
not a good business decision.
And he would say, I'm the bossso what I say goes. It's like,
we're working together but we'remarried. What do we do? So my
character, Sydney, was dealingwith that at some point. She
begins to find her voice andfind where she wants to go
career wise. So in that respect,identity did play in important
(29:57):
part. I'm just thinking about myother characters. My immigrant
characters, also had identity.
Omar had to find where he wassupposed to be. He wants to be
the ambassador, the drummingAmbassador of the world. He
introduces African drumming tothat community, because
historically at that time, therewere not very many African
(30:18):
drummers in the US. And the onesthat came over sometimes they
did very well. But sometimes,for the African American
community, they were notaccepted. Because some African
Americans would say it wasjungle music, we want nothing to
do with it. So it was duringthat era. So Omar's trying to
find his place and where he fitsin, and where he could be
(30:41):
successful. So I would say inthose respects, and there are
other characters, too, who wereon their journeys, as well. But
those are a couple of examples.
Maggie Lynch (30:49):
Great! And can you, Leslie, kind of talk about,
particularly in your fiction,you know, how that journey of
identities important?
Leslie Lehr (30:58):
Yes,. Well, obviously, my first nonfiction
book was about kind of what thef*ck is... What is it like to be
a mom when I was a career woman?
And where am I? What'shappening? I wrote a movie that
came out about the same time, anindependent film about a young
sheltered woman who wonderedwhat would it be like to be a
worldly, wealthy woman. That wasactually a murder mystery. And
then my first novel, 66 Laps,the premise was about a young
new mom at home thinking (31:22):
who am I without my career? This wasn't
what I planned. Is my husbandcheating on me? I don't know.
And then the other one was WifeGoes On. It is about a woman who
makes three friends with otherwomen who are getting a divorce.
It asks who are you if you'renot married, when your identity
was I'm this mother or marriedwoman. And suddenly, you know,
(31:44):
this drastic change in yourlife. And then What A Mother
Knows was a similar search ofthis woman who was actually a
busy career woman, but a motherfirst. And when her daughter
disappears, and she's in his caraccident, and accused of murder,
and can't find her daughter, whoknows what happened, and what
did she do? And, you know, it'slike, Who am I without my
(32:07):
daughter? And how do I matter?
What did I do to be a goodmother? You know, all those kind
of questions of identity. Andthen my boobs book, seriously,
is about how breasts definewomen in so many ways, through
so many parts of our lives inways that the whole culture
takes for granted. So for me,it's all about gender identity,
(32:30):
and sexual roles, and you know,how the female is treated
because of this, this oneparticular body part that
represents us and, you know, byour gender. So it's a, it's all
about who am I? And why am Ijere? What's my purpose?
Maggie Lynch (32:47):
I think for many women, that is an ongoing
question throughout their life,(cough) just because also of the
roles. But we change throughoutlife, you know. Who we are as a
young woman and who we are as amother is different, or in
middle age, or in retirementlike I am.
Leslie Lehr (33:11):
And our bodies are, exactly, but also how the
culture likes to see us. Whetherit's racial, or gender, or just
our identity. Women are kind ofthe old Freudian, Madonna whore,
our bodies make us mothers andsweet, or sexy and tacky, or you
know. But for real women we'revery complex. And we have so
(33:32):
many other roles. And I thinkthat's part of why there's so
many issues of Who am I now? Andthen and, you know, what is the
stage of my life means to me asa person, you know. How's my
womanhood defined?
Maggie Lynch (33:45):
Oh, really wonderful. I have one final
question before we close today.
And that is what's coming upnext for each of you. Are you
writing another book? Working ona movie? What can we expect over
the next year or so? Lisa, howabout you?
Lisa Braxton (34:03):
I have been working for several years now on
a second novel. This one goesfurther back in history to the
1850s in Boston, the Beacon Hillarea. Boston, where you have
some fugitive slaves who nowhave been given the right to be
free people of color. Some ofthem are, were in hiding, but
(34:23):
they they kind of put that asideand they're they're working as
entrepreneurs and, you know,working nine to five jobs, then
you have some people who areslave catchers coming through
who are trying to find theseslaves, and you have
abolitionists, and there was alot of activity going on and
Beacon Hill, and there was ablack neighborhood there at one
(34:45):
time. And that hasn't beenexplored very much in fiction.
So that's something I'm workingon. I'm really enjoying the
process of digging back inhistory to see what it was like
back then.
Maggie Lynch (34:55):
Now that sounds very, very interesting. And I
also will be interested to seehow history informs people's
journey even into the present.
Lisa Braxton (35:11):
Yeah, I need to make it relatable to
contemporary audiences.
Definitely.
Maggie Lynch (35:15):
And, Leslie, what's coming up next for you?
Leslie Lehr (35:18):
Well, the audio book just came out two weeks
ago, and I narrated it. So nextI gotta listen to it, see how it
is to hear the story, when I wascrying or laughing or whatever.
And then I'm starting to speakto universities, hoping the book
is used as a text for GenderStudies. And the, you know,
television show is indevelopment, or in the pilot
stage. And that's a long ordeal.
You know, hopefully, that willreally happen. And I'll be
(35:42):
executive producer. So I'll getto have a role in who plays me
and what my boobs say. And thenthe paperback comes out next
year. But honestly, right now,I'm doing so much promotion from
this book. It's very weird tohave a COVID book. I mean, the
whole thing came out, andeverything I've done is online.
But I'm very eager to get backto what I was working on. I am
(36:05):
working on another novel. And ithas a lot of the same themes of
identity. It has to do with bothrace and gender and
relationships in the late 60s.
And it's a book that I've beenwanting to write forever. And
finally, enough people are dyingthat I can write it. I can
fictionalize it to actually haveall their points of view and
really explore the dynamicsfurther. So I'm eager to get
(36:28):
back to that. And I think theboobs obsession is my piece out
there, my mission in the worldfor women to stop being so
judgmental of ourselves andpractice better self care, and,
you know, love our bodies, evenwhen they're not prepubescent.
And to be more empowered and,you know, fight for legislation
that's going to help us. I feellike this is a book that I'm
(36:50):
going to always be promoting andtrying to get the message out.
And every woman needs to get amammogram. It is going to be one
woman every day, good for me. Iwork with stand up to cancer and
breast disease. So it's kind ofmy evergreen mission book.
And then the next book will be alot of fun exploring this
period, and same dynamics. Andas you were saying, Lisa, I
(37:12):
think the issues--and I'mexploring the late 60s, and a
lot of it is based on real stuffthat happened--are still exactly
what's still happening today,We're still talking about
reparations. We're still havingissues of political, you know,
who's in charge and who's notand how, you know, where the
power lies. And the love and thebetrayal of relationships. And I
(37:34):
do think that as much as we'vemade progress in women's
fiction, for the basis of thestories, we're all still back in
Sense and Sensibility, And allthe these same themes are still
relevant. So by going backwards,we're just giving people another
another angle to see what'shappening today in our lives. We
are still people who have thesame emotions and needs for
(37:57):
independence and liberation andpower. And, you know, love.
Lisa Braxton (38:01):
So let me let me ask you, Leslie, really quickly,
how does a writer get a dealwith HBO? How does that happen?
Leslie Lehr (38:07):
That was total luck! You know, I've been a
screenwriter before. I'm in theGuild. But I haven't written
screenplays for a long time.
Because I found, as a woman, itwas incredibly difficult. I was
in production for a long time.
Nobody wanted my stories. Andthen I thought, oh, write books
and maybe they'll get picked up.
I did sell a couple ofscreenplays. But this was
(38:27):
somebody who I knew by firstname ain a parenting group. I
was actually helping her withher writing. I'm a writing
consultant. I work with TrilbyWriters Studio, and I help
people write pitch letters and,and proposals. And I was reading
her book for free, and just gaveher some notes, because she was
a friend that I knew. And so she
said (38:49):
Let me read what you're writing. And I gave her his
book. It did not sell in theproposal. And so finally I was
frustrated. And I just wrote thewhole book. And so I gave her
draft even before I sent it tomy agent. And she loved it and
said, You know, I know somepeople that I can shop it around
to. And my agent was like, No,don't do that! And I was like,
(39:10):
what I got to lose, you know.
Usually it's a best seller thatgets this treatment. I've never
had a best seller. I always getpublished, you know, but I'd
love to have a best seller. Butmeanwhile, she did know some
people and got it to Salma Hayekwho loved it. So Salma Hayek and
Dolly Parton, for me, are theboob heroes of the world. These
are major feminists working forthe greater good and use their
(39:31):
boobs for power. So yeah, it wasjust you know, great.
Everything I've really sold haskind of been that way, where
it's just a matter of talking topeople and building
relationships and takingchances. So it was just a lucky
thing and she believed in it.
Aand honestly, when I thought isthis a stupid book to write you
know, in the throes ofrejections, her belief in it
kept me going. And like she'sbeen working for free still,
(39:54):
unless it happens, you know,unless it actually gets made and
is on the air. So it gave me alot of faith. And so it was just
one of those weird, Luckythings, you know. This whole
book was neem like that night.
This book has been a very oddjourney. And so I want to just
believe that it was meant to beand hopefully will help some
(40:15):
people. But um, there's, I mean,I would say your book has won a
bunch of awards. So you couldprobably have your agent or your
publisher, right now get it inthe pipeline. They want a lot of
products, and you could do theformal away and get a film agent
for it. And I'd be happy torefer you to mine. So I got them
after the fact, though. I neverdid anything the right way. But
(40:38):
now I do have a lawyer in mycorner and things like that. And
it's just.. there's so much luckinvolved, really. So I'm just
this one. So far, I've beenlucky. We'll see. We'll see if
it sells the works. I don'tknow, my baby is the book.
Whatever else happens is gravy,you know,
Lisa Braxton (40:54):
So just having the right connections, and just
timing and luck.
Leslie Lehr (40:56):
And not even having correct connections. But making
connections, talking about it,trying to be out there. And
believing in yourself, for me,is really hard. And like, Who
cares? Nobody's wanting to hearabout boobs. And suddenly,
everyone was caring about boobs.
And it's so it's like, yeah,see, I thought so. But your,
your book is fantastic. And I'msure that, you know, if you just
(41:16):
keep making the phone calls andconnecting with people, it's,
you know, you'll be there too.
And, and then then the next bookwill be easier.
Maggie Lynch (41:29):
Lisa, that's an invitation from Leslie for you
to take advantage of her and herconnections. You have to do
that. Because there really is alot of need for content because
there's so much cable now. Soit's not just you know, for
network television, it's notjust the big studios. And, for
(41:51):
that matter, I mean, you know,you have Netflix, and everyone's
now coming up with originalcontent like Netflix, Amazon,
Apple TV. So there's a lot ofplaces to sell. And you just
need to find some people whoknow where all those places are.
Leslie Lehr (42:04):
Somebody who loves your project.
Maggie Lynch (42:08):
So, we've run out of time for today. So let me
thank both of you, truly, forparticipating in this special
conversation in celebration ofwomen's fiction. It's been a
pleasure getting to know you andyour books.
Leslie Lehr (42:22):
No, thank you so much. It's really an honor. I
remember when the first foundersof the women's fiction
Association, you know, foundedit, and it's been just wonderful
to see it grow and be a part ofit. So thank you.
Maggie Lynch (42:35):
Thank you. You're quite welcome. And to my
listening audience, thank youfor listening to Dust Jackets:
Conversations with Authors.
Don't forget to check the shownotes for everything happening
on Women's Fiction Day, June8th. And also in the notes will
be things about how to contactboth of these authors, learn
more about their books, andwhat's going on in their lives.
See you next time.
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