The Dark side of Football + A Harrowing Tale of Survival Featuring True Crime BnB

• As season two winds down, we've had a lot of guests on Dying to be Found. Today, Beth, with True Crime BnB turns the tables and brings Deb onto her own podcast. Get ready to listen to a web of tales True Crime BnB style, where Deb is the bad guy, and Beth lightens things up with a story of strength, hope, and survival.

The Dark Side of Aaron Hernandez

First up, Deb exposes the chilling truth about Aaron Hernandez, the once-praised football star of the New England Patriots. Dive into the darkness that lurked beneath his fame and fortune, leading to his untimely demise while awaiting trial for murder charges. As always, there are valuable lessons to be learned here, especially regarding the sacrifices one may make for success in the world of sports.

Laurie Melanson's Harrowing Tale of Survival

Next, Beth takes us on a bittersweet journey through the life of Laurie Melanson, a young woman from a small town in upstate New York. Her encounter with a charismatic man named John Brown seemed like a fairytale romance. However, as their relationship came to an end, Laurie discovered that John's obsession with her was far from over. Brace yourself as we explore Laurie's courageous battle against imminent danger. Prepare to be inspired by her resilience and determination to move forward, leaving behind the haunting terrors of her past.

Listen to new episodes every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts! Find us on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Pinterest @dying2bfound or visit our website at www.dyingtobefound.com. Find us all in one spot at https://linktr.ee/dying2bfound.

If you like what you hear, please share and give a 5-star review! Consider supporting us by buying us a coffee at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/dyingtobefound.

Intro & Extro Music: Undersea World by Dragonov

REFERENCES:

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

Aaron Hernandez timeline: From murders and trials to prison suicide | Sporting News

Complete Timeline of the Rise and Fall of Aaron Hernandez

Timeline of events the night Odin Lloyd was murdered

Aaron Hernandez timeline: From murders and trials to prison suicide | Sporting News

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi guys, throughout season 2 I've talked to family members, indie podcasters, and even

(00:11):
went solo for a couple of episodes.
Well, today's episode is going to be a little bit different.
You all know I'm used to being in the driver's seat, which I still get to do in today's
episode, but I also wanted to get on the opposite side of the mic with Beth from True Crime
B&B who invited me to be one of her guests on her own indie podcast.

(00:34):
So get ready to listen to some amazing storytelling where I tell the story of a bad guy and Beth
lifts us up to tell a tale of strength and survival.
And if you're not already listening to True Crime B&B, be sure to head on over there.
But in the meantime, enjoy.
Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.

(00:54):
Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions
on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this
podcast.
So listener discretion is strongly advised.

(01:25):
Hello everybody, welcome back.
This is episode 82 at the True Crime B&B.
This is Beth and today I have a wonderful podcaster joining me.
This is Deb from Dying to be Found.
Deb is probably already on your playlist, but if not, you're going to want to after
you hear her tell her story today.
So Deb, please tell us a little bit about yourself and your podcast.

(01:47):
Hi Beth, I am so excited to be here.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Dying to be Found is what I like to say open to the interpretation of our listeners because
we are a true crime podcast, but it's not always about the high profile with an exception
today because I am doing a high profile today, but it's really true crime.

(02:09):
It can be anything from poachers.
I've talked about other things that are true crime related, but not necessarily what you
expect to hear.
So if you guys get a chance, check it out, but you will certainly get to learn my style
today as we talk because I'm probably going to be going along the lines of how I usually
do my podcast.

(02:29):
So yeah, check it out.
Well, that's the hope because I want people to hear who you are so that then they can
go get more of you.
Awesome.
Thanks so much.
So that's kind of the goal.
And I think we're similar in that I also like to normally pick low profile cases that haven't
gotten a lot of attention or maybe they happened 30 or 40 years ago and really people have

(02:50):
kind of forgotten about them and I don't want those people to be forgotten.
So when I find them, I like to bring them back for a little while.
So people are thinking about them.
Absolutely.
I actually have two podcasts, one is called Dying to be Found and the other one is Dying
to be Found the Dash.
And on the dash, I find those older cases where DNA has been able to pick up on something
that went cold for quite a long period of time.

(03:12):
And I love those endings where we finally have the answers.
Yeah.
And it's been very satisfying the last few years, old maddening cases.
It must have been agony for these families for decades to not know what happened to their
loved one or their husband or their child.
I can't even imagine.
Yes.

(03:32):
You offered to be our bad guy today.
So what are you bringing to us today?
Okay, so this is an interesting one.
When you asked me to come on and I wanted to be the bad guy, I was really thinking what
direction did I want to go here?
What I like to do is I start off with a question.
So I want to ask you, Beth, what do you know about fantasy football?

(03:55):
I was in a fantasy football league for a few years, but that was probably 20 years ago.
So I don't really know that much about it anymore.
I know it was fun.
It made it a lot more interesting to follow the football stats and it made some games
that I normally wouldn't watch because I didn't have any vested interest in that team.
It made those games more interesting for me to watch.
That's about all I know.

(04:15):
Okay.
I don't know much, but over the Labor Day weekend, I had gone to go visit my family
in Mississippi and they said, hey, we need an extra person on our fantasy football league.
Yeah, I jumped in, don't know anything about it.
I let the fantasy football league draft everybody for me and truly Beth, I did nothing for three
weeks and right now I'm five in one.

(04:38):
I'm doing really good.
I think I have beginner's luck.
Did you pick players or just teams?
I let ESPN do all the picking for me.
Okay.
But it's fun.
It actually is a nice little pastime.
Yeah.
It makes it more fun to watch the football games.
Yeah, for sure.
I bring this up because we are going to be talking about an NFL player today.

(04:59):
Okay.
That is Aaron Joseph Hernandez.
Oh yeah.
I don't know if you've heard of him.
Oh, I have.
Yeah.
Okay.
Aaron rose to fame back in 2013 when he landed a $40 million contract to play for the New
England Patriots as a tight end.
We're talking about Aaron today.
I want to start by giving a brief history of Aaron's high school years.

(05:24):
Back in 2006, he was a very talented local football player at Bristol Central High School
located in Bristol, Connecticut.
Unfortunately, Aaron had lost his father while he was in high school and he did not take
that death very well because according to family members, he immediately began showing

(05:44):
disturbing signs of a troubled youth.
And I get that Beth.
I mean, that's a tough age as it is, but losing a father when you're that young, I know it's
going to be devastating.
Yeah.
I would think that that's true, especially, I don't know, I think a lot of high school
football players, a lot of that is dad driven.
You know, their dad wants them to do this.

(06:05):
They want to make their dad proud.
It's a dad and son thing they do together.
Yes.
So yeah, that had to be really rough.
Absolutely.
Well, simply put, although Aaron was that shining star in the public eye and on the
football field, he was beginning to be very angry on the inside.
He began acting out when he wasn't on the playing field.

(06:28):
Aaron began doing illegal drugs and associated himself with the rough crowd around town.
And some say that he was associating himself with gang members.
Okay.
Although he was struggling with personal issues, Aaron managed to get accepted into the University
of Florida after graduating high school.
That's awesome.

(06:49):
So he moved from Connecticut down south, which I think he was hoping to start things off
with a clean slate.
You know, he's getting in trouble in his town.
He wants to go somewhere new.
I understand that.
Absolutely.
Sure.
But that was not the case because in 2007, shortly after Aaron settled into Gainesville,

(07:10):
Florida, he was arrested during a bar room brawl.
And I think this had something as simple to do, Beth, with a spill drink.
Of course, he's angry, he's acting out, there's alcohol involved.
Do you think that he was the one who started the brawl or was he like kind of looped into
it by somebody else?
Pretty sure that he was the one that started it.
I can't say for sure from the articles that I read.

(07:33):
I don't think he was looped into anything.
Okay.
I just wasn't sure if he spilled the drink on somebody or somebody spilled it on him.
That's a great question.
Regardless.
Anyway.
Well, Aaron was also questioned in a double shooting that same year, but he never faced
charges for that.
And this is where I say, Beth, new place, same face.

(07:56):
And for those of you who don't know, I'm a teacher for a living.
I see students that, you know, again, that's a tough year, but I always tell them when
you guys move to a new town, you will always seek out who you know, you are who you associate
with.
So I'm feeling like this is the direction that Aaron had gone.
He was just seeking out the same people in a different place.

(08:18):
Yeah.
He probably wasn't going down there thinking that he was going to be a whole new guy.
He was probably thinking that his past sense will be forgotten and he could just start
over again.
Yeah.
And nobody be watching him too hard yet.
Oh yes.
So true.
Well, although Aaron started out with a rough beginning, he seemed to settle down and lay
low after those couple of run ins with the law.

(08:41):
No other occurrences took place that we know of after that for probably the next year or
two.
Aaron received a suspension from the Florida Gators because he failed a drug screen.
But other than that, he seemed to have put his temper into check and he eventually tried
out for the NFL draft in 2010.

(09:02):
So I think that he skipped his senior year of university and went on to the NFL after
that.
I think that's amazing.
Yeah.
He was probably just hoping to get out of there before he got really busted though.
Yes, probably so.
And this is where things get a little tricky.
Aaron seemed to have talent, but again, his reputation did not get past the NFL teams.

(09:25):
So sort of like you say, things are starting to catch up with him.
Many of the NFL owners voiced reservations on drafting Aaron, partly because of those
failed drug screens, but also because there was talk that Aaron had been linked to gang
activity back in his hometown of Bristol, Connecticut.
Wow.

(09:45):
Okay.
So his actions are definitely following him.
Things did work out in Aaron's favor because at the age of 20, the New England Patriots
drafted him as a tight end in the fourth round.
So he's playing an astounding first season with all sorts of stats that make no sense
to me, but you get the point because he is on the Patriots team and they had made it

(10:10):
to the Superbowl that year, earning Aaron a five year, $40 million contract that I spoke
about at the beginning of our episode.
Right.
So seems like things are on the up and up, right?
Or at least on their way up.
Yeah.
Maybe not the up and up.
Yes.
Yeah.
Between 2010 and 2013, Aaron seemed to have everything going for him, but this is really

(10:33):
where his life seems to take a dark turn.
Is this bad guy enough for you by the way?
It's getting to be pretty bad guy.
On June 13th, 2013, Aaron had a personal injury lawsuit filed against him.
Apparently he had gotten into another argument with a man outside of strip club in Florida.

(10:54):
Aaron had pulled out a gun and whether he intentionally pulled the trigger or not, the
gun went off.
Oh boy.
Mm-hmm.
Luckily though, the victim did live, but he was shot in the face and he lost an eye in
this incident.
So that is why he filed a personal injury lawsuit against Aaron.
Wow.
I don't think I knew that that was what the injury was.

(11:15):
I sort of vaguely remembered that he had all kinds of people coming after him to get back
at him for things that he had done to them, but oh my God.
Yeah.
To lose an eye over a fight outside of strip club is just, that's just grotesque.
Yeah, it is, but fortunately I say he lived, thank goodness.
Well a few days later on June 16th, 2013, Aaron was in North Attleboro, Massachusetts

(11:41):
where apparently he had an off season home.
So you know, football players tend to have different houses, different states.
Aaron had texted one of his acquaintances, a man named Odin Lloyd, a former semi-professional
football player.
He wanted to just meet up with him.
I believe Aaron's girlfriend at the time and Odin's girlfriend were sisters.

(12:03):
So this is probably how they knew each other.
And Aaron didn't get a response from his text for at least 30 minutes.
And that's actually going to come into play in just a moment because Aaron didn't like
that it took so long to receive a text reply.
I mean, this is where I say, come on now, can you not just pick up the phone?

(12:24):
What's up with that?
If I won't respond to your text, I'm not going to answer your call either.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, honestly today when you texted me, it took me 10 minutes because I don't always
go to my phone.
My phone's in the other room.
I mean, things happen, you get busy.
I'm not one of those people who expects an immediate response when I text somebody because
I don't want people to think I'm going to immediately respond if they text to me.

(12:48):
Life does not mean I'm sitting here staring at my phone all day waiting for it to go ding.
True.
We're not the right generation for that.
No.
Well, I did see the context of the texts and truly to me, Beth, they were a little sketchy.
Let's just say they were not meeting up for beers.
Maybe something a little harder.

(13:10):
Was there a transaction involved or was this just a communal activity they were going to
do together?
Yeah.
It sounded to me that there might be some transactions involved.
Yes.
All right.
So, early morning hours of July 17th, Aaron and Odin agreed on a meeting spot, but everything
else after that is pretty questionable because later that day, Odin Lloyd was found dead

(13:35):
in an industrial park located about one mile from Aaron's Massachusetts home.
Oh, Aaron.
Yeah.
Investigators spent the next 10 days investigating Odin's death, getting search warrants and
reviewing CCTV.
Around 2.30 AM on June 17th, Aaron was seen on surveillance cameras leaving his home armed

(13:57):
with a gun.
Oh, geez.
To me, I don't know.
It's 2.30 AM.
Maybe he just wanted it for protection?
I've left my house at 2.30 AM and I didn't go back in heat.
Yeah.
Understandable.
Absolutely.
Well, before he left, Aaron told someone inside the house that he simply couldn't trust anyone

(14:17):
anymore.
So, I'm just kind of telling you this because this sets Aaron's mood before he takes off
for the night.
Yeah.
But I do want to backtrack for just a moment because I had mentioned that 30 minute time
frame of not receiving that text.
According to witnesses, this delay seemed to agitate Aaron a little bit.

(14:39):
It was not just annoying him, it agitated him.
So by the time he had left the house to meet up with Odin, I think he was probably still
recruiting over how long it took to receive that text because he wanted his merchandise
quickly.
Okay.
Yeah.
So he was already grouchy and he was getting grouchier by the minute.

(14:59):
Things may have taken a turning point when Aaron and Odin finally did meet up because
prosecutors would later say that Aaron indeed was not agitated with that time delay.
He was rather upset that Odin had been talking to the guy that Aaron had shot in the face
at the nightclub just a few nights earlier.

(15:20):
They were both at the nightclub talking and Aaron found out that Odin was talking to the
guy who got shot at the nightclub?
I feel like what happened here is obviously this man gets shot in the face.
Only three days went by between the time that that occurred and then when Odin and Aaron
meet up.
So in that three day period, apparently they were in the same circle so they may have known

(15:44):
each other.
Okay.
They were talking to the victim in that timeframe and then Aaron got wind of that.
Okay.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
He's like, stay out of my business.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
So nothing is really clear after that.
Only Aaron knows what occurred between Odin and himself before Odin was killed.
Okay.

(16:05):
By June 26th, 2013, police seemed to have enough evidence that they needed on Aaron
Hernandez and he was arrested that day for Odin's murder.
So this is where I say, once you're a high profile athlete, you know it's going to go
straight to the news sources.
It's going to be all over the media.

(16:25):
So what do you think the NFL is going to do?
They pretty much made up their mind that during this high profile investigation, if Aaron
would be arrested for the murder of Odin Lloyd, they would release him from the roster and
that's pretty much what happened.
Okay.
The NFL doesn't have a great track record with dealing with its athletes who have been

(16:48):
violent towards strangers or their wives or their families or whatever.
So true.
So I'm glad they actually made a hard line in the sand and said, okay, if they think
you killed somebody, that's got to stop.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I'm sure there's something in the contract as far as behavior.
You know, they're a public figure, so they have an image they're supposed to be portraying

(17:10):
in the public's eye, I suppose.
So I mean, who knows?
I don't see why they should have done anything different.
Dropping him like a hot potato was probably the right choice.
No, I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it with him.
I'm saying that there are probably a lot of other athletes that also should have been
sanctioned in some way, but weren't.
Yes, absolutely.
And I agree with you there.

(17:31):
Absolutely.
Well, Aaron was charged with five gun charges and first degree murder.
He remained in jail close to a year awaiting his trial for the murder of Odin Lloyd.
However, on May 15th, 2014, two more charges were brought up against him.
Apparently police had been working on two more homicide cases from 2012, and that was

(17:55):
around the time that Aaron had been said to be hanging out with the wrong crowd.
I don't think that he ever stopped hanging out with the wrong crowd, but...
I think Aaron was the wrong crowd.
I think so.
Yeah.
If he's going to be a leader, it's going to be with the wrong people, right?
So, back in 2012, Daniel DeAbró and Sefirro Furtado were killed outside a nightclub in

(18:21):
South Boston.
Aaron Hernandez happened to be in town when these murders occurred.
Obviously, investigators did their homework here just as well, and they believe that none
of the parties really knew each other.
Everything happens in the nightclubs, Beth.
What police do know is that Daniel and Sefirro had left the club and were driving down the

(18:44):
streets of Boston when a car pulled up at a red light and opened fire.
Aaron Hernandez was in that car, and both men died on the scene.
Oh, wow.
Now, when you first said that these two men were shot outside of a nightclub and Aaron
Hernandez happened to be in town, I thought, well, that's a little bit dodgy to make that
connection.

(19:05):
Okay, if he was actually in that car, okay, now that connection is becoming pretty solid.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, Aaron has three murder charges stacked up against him at this point.
First he went to trial on the drive-by shootings in Boston, but on April 14th, 2017, he was
found not guilty by the jury of his peers.

(19:27):
How about that?
Were they all three tried at the same time?
No, I think that they went ahead and tried him for the first two in Boston, and then
because he was still behind bars.
Okay.
So his trial for Odin would be coming up.
Now, it's interesting though, to me, because of a high profile person such as this, you
know, a football player making $40 million, I'm really kind of surprised, or am I though,

(19:54):
that he was still sitting behind bars.
Maybe he couldn't make bond because obviously he's got a violent track record.
So there was a bond available?
Oh.
I'm asking if they offered him a bond, because sometimes they just say, no, there's no bond
available.
You cannot bond out of jail.
You are staying until your trial.
Oh, yeah.
I didn't see anything that they offered him one.

(20:17):
Why was he still remaining behind bars?
I'm thinking that if you have that much in your history and you are being held for three
murders, I think that there's a good chance they said no bail.
Yeah, absolutely.
Then that was probably a good choice.
Yes.
He did not need to be out running around causing more mayhem.
No, absolutely not.

(20:37):
Well, while he's behind bars waiting to go to trial for Odin Lloyd's murder, he was discovered
dead in his jail cell where he had just completed suicide by hanging himself with his bed sheet.
He was found just shortly after 3 a.m. on April 19th, 2017, where he was taken to the

(21:00):
hospital and pronounced dead at 4.07 a.m.
Wow.
Aaron had left two suicide notes inside his cell, one for his family and one for his fiancee.
I mean, it's a definite deal that that is what occurred.
Nobody came in and did anything to him.
He just completed suicide.
That part to me, as violent and angry as he is, you'll understand why I am.

(21:26):
It's a sad ending.
It is.
Where was his life going to go?
He had destroyed his own life in every possible way.
He had an entire golden future ahead of him and he just could not walk the straight and
narrow long enough to enjoy that.
But on the other hand, you talk about these professional football players and when they've

(21:48):
played football since they were little kids, basically, a lot of them become extra violent
because they've had head injuries over the years.
Yes.
That's funny you say that.
I was wondering if you were going to go there.
I am going there.
Well I shut my mouth.
Did you read my script?
I didn't, but I'm shutting my mouth and I'm going to let you talk now.

(22:10):
Okay, no problem.
No, actually, I love that because you're on the same wavelengths as me and I did kind
of want to end this story.
I'm done talking about Aaron being the bad guy here, but I do want to talk about something
that's really important and that's why I'm saying like it's a sad ending, but you'll
understand why I said that in just a moment.

(22:31):
Because what you just said, Beth, football, any contact sports, they're all dangerous.
I've had my nephews had a concussion from playing soccer.
Football players get concussions all the time.
And what you said too is that these kids don't just take up football in high school.
They've been playing since they were small kids and Aaron was playing football since

(22:53):
he was eight.
So where's the documentation on if they did get a head injury?
Aaron had two documented concussions in his life, but how many hard hits did he actually
get on his head throughout all of those years that he played?
Aaron was only 27 when he passed away, but during his autopsy, the medical examiner had

(23:18):
determined that there was something called, I'm going to try to say this.
I practiced it a few times before coming on today is called chronic traumatic encephalopathy.
Encephalopathy?
Yeah, there you go.
Or CTE.
In short form, I can pronounce this.
It's called CTE.
I can say that one too.
Yeah, CTE is contributed not only to Aaron's violent behavior, but his ultimate decision

(23:45):
to complete suicide.
And I've read, I don't know much about CTE or its effects, but I do recall seeing a lot
of articles in the newspaper online, wherever, where football players have agreed that upon
their death, they donate their brains to science, especially if they've had a concussion.

(24:05):
So we're learning a lot more about it, which is good.
And I had mentioned that Aaron's medical history, he did have only two documented concussions,
but when his brain was autopsied, they discovered that his brain had deteriorated to that of
a 60 year old and he was only 27.
Holy cow.

(24:26):
I know.
You know, when you talk about the violence that you see from a lot of these players,
and we kind of mentioned it earlier in your story, I mean, it's a perfect storm, right?
Because one, there's the injuries to their brains that are over the years and they accumulate
and it just causes so much damage over time.
And two, it's the encouragement of these players to go out and be as violent as possible in

(24:52):
order to be good at what they're supposed to do during the game.
You can't be a nose guard and not be a violent guy.
You have to go out there and smash as hard as you can smash.
Right.
And obviously, you know, the NFL has, they have the players out there for a reason.
They want to make money for the team and everything else.

(25:14):
So I mean, that part of it, it will never end, ever.
Yeah.
Well, and then there's the third component of giving high school football players a pass
for every wrong thing they do because they're so invaluable to the team.
Yeah.
It's like, oh, you got caught drinking.
Okay, well, no big deal.
We'll let it slide.
Yes.
Because they're the stars of the school and nobody wants to get them in trouble.

(25:36):
Right.
So it's like a three component perfect storm that allows these guys to turn into these
crazed monsters who do this kind of stuff.
It is.
And I'll go one step further than that.
I mentioned I'm a teacher and several years ago, I was assaulted in the classroom by a
football player.
Oh God.
Now, did he get taken off the field?

(25:59):
No.
Did he get taken out of school?
No.
So exactly what you were saying, it really does build up.
So of course, you know, those are the years of being invincible.
Yeah.
And infallible.
So if I'm going to get away with this, then what else can I get away with?
Yeah.
Well, that is...
Wow.
It's an important story that you brought up because it's something that I think a lot of

(26:22):
people know is a problem.
Absolutely.
And some ways they're trying to address some of the components that are affecting this,
but it's a big deal and it's not just Aaron Hernandez.
It's a lot of football players.
It's a lot of athletes in general who think they're...
That is so true.
Not infallible, but bulletproof.
Yes, absolutely.
And I will say this, on Dying to be Found, I usually end it with a teachable moment.

(26:47):
And that's something I really want to give you all today is a teachable moment.
I don't usually talk about data and statistics, but you know, this is technically a scientific
problem that does need to be addressed because, Beth, according to the National Institute
of Health, 83.5% of football players who have had at least one documented concussion, they

(27:11):
return to the field within only seven days.
And how long does a concussion typically take to heal?
That's a great question because I have a coworker who got a concussion several weeks ago.
We were in a meeting this week and he is still clearly suffering from that.
And that was a couple of weeks ago.

(27:32):
Wow.
So they're going back and they may be re-injuring something that hasn't even had a chance to
heal yet.
Correct.
Absolutely.
Now, I will also say this, according to Boston University's CTE Center, a case study was
performed where 345 out of 376 former athletes had CTE at the time of their death.

(27:56):
Oh my God.
And that is 91% of these former athletes.
That is an incredibly high number.
It is an incredibly high number.
And they've changed rules in football to try and alleviate the level of damage that these
young men are causing to their brains.
You know, the targeting rules and the way that if your helmet falls off, you have to

(28:19):
sit out the next play so they can check you out, et cetera, et cetera.
But it's just, it's devastating what's happening to these young men who otherwise have such
a bright future ahead of them.
Yeah.
And you know what?
When I was doing the research for this, I did see a picture online of Aaron in one of
his plays where his helmet was removed and he was in the middle of that play.

(28:43):
Yeah.
And you know, it got knocked off of him.
And this is where my teachable moment comes in.
Beth, if we can send a rocket into outer space, why can't we come up with better safety equipment
for contact sports players of any sport out there?
I mean, obviously we have got to do something because there's got to be better protective

(29:05):
equipment and better guidelines, like you said, to keep them out of the game for a certain
period of time.
And that's truly a teachable moment.
I know that there's a lot of research going on.
There's a lot of product engineers out there trying to figure out better ways to protect
the head during sports.
But I think part of it is that it's like a person inside of a car.

(29:28):
If you are driving your car 80 miles an hour and you smash it into a tree, no matter how
much damage there is on the outside of the car, it's you slamming into the car when you
stop suddenly, that's what's actually causing the damage to your body.
There's not the damage to the car that's causing the problem.
And your head is the car and your brain is you.

(29:49):
And your brain smashes into your skull, that's what's causing the concussion.
So I think that's part of the problem.
I don't know if there's a good way to alleviate that damage.
I don't know.
Maybe if our listeners can tell us, somebody out there that's working on safety equipment,
we'd love to hear from you on Beth's podcast here.
And I'm not going to tell Deb what you said.

(30:11):
Well, that is my bad guy story.
Well, that was really interesting.
I knew about Aaron Hernandez.
I remembered when he died in jail.
I did not remember all of the things that led up to that.
So it was a really good summary of the downfall of his life.

(30:31):
Yeah, so sad because CTE is not even diagnosed until after someone dies.
They won't know until they actually examine the brain.
Can it not be seen with an MRI or anything like that?
It cannot.
Oh, wow.
That's crazy.
Well, I can only hope that people out there are trying their best to take care of themselves

(30:54):
because don't think it can't happen to you.
So true.
Yeah.
You know, there's a lot of moms that won't let their sons play football because of this.
And while the sons are mad as hell because they're like, I love this game.
All my friends are playing this game.
I play this game.
The mom is like, because I don't want you to turn into Aaron Hernandez.
They don't understand that though.

(31:14):
They're just in the moment.
So yeah, they think they're indestructible.
All right.
So I'm going to tell you a story.
I can't wait.
I'm going to preface this by saying this is a survivor story.
And a lot of the time with the survivor story, some information will not be available because
they don't want everyone in the world to have every bit of information about their life.

(31:35):
And we'll just go from there.
Lori E. Melanson was a lovely young woman.
She was pretty, but she didn't flaunt it.
She was shy, quiet, and she kept to herself.
She had a kind heart and always held a soft spot for people facing challenges.
And at the age of 26, she had been working with intellectually challenged children at
the intermediate care facility in Speculator, New York.

(31:59):
In January of 1986, Lori started dating a man named John Richard Brown.
John was five years older than Lori and had been born in Lowville, New York, but was now
living 90 miles east in Indian Lake.
At first, Lori enjoyed the new relationship, but she started to detect red flags in his
behavior.

(32:19):
He started to become erratic and unpredictable.
Lori started to feel nervous about how he would react to things.
His volatility was starting to make her feel afraid of him.
After a very few months, John had decided he wanted to marry Lori.
Marriage to this chaotic man wasn't what Lori wanted.
She didn't want marriage.
She didn't want John.

(32:40):
Lori decided to end the relationship because it was clear that she and John wanted very
different things.
And there's really no way to go back to a fun new relationship when one party has decided
they want to make it permanent.
And even though Lori had been clear that the relationship was over, he wouldn't let it
go.
He chided, berated, argued.

(33:01):
He was depressed, negative, and angry.
Lori's family worried about her because he had been so unpredictable.
So first of all, how old is Lori?
She's 26.
Okay.
So she told her family about some of the behaviors that she was encountering with him?
She had.
Okay, that's good.
I had told them about the relationship and that he had asked her to marry him and then

(33:24):
he was not letting it go.
And she said no and said, let's stop this.
You go find someone that wants you back, John, and I'm going to go off on my merry way.
And so she told them all that and they were a little concerned because he was not letting
it go.
Oh yeah.
I'd be a concerned parent myself, sure.
Absolutely.
So over time, John began terrorizing Lori, interfering in her daily life.

(33:47):
He had even gone and stolen her mail.
Oh wow.
Yeah.
More than once he confronted her and put his hands on her, trying to plead his case, threatening
her if she didn't acquiesce to what he wanted to marry him.
He had even bought rings a few months after meeting Lori, even though she had never given
him any validation towards that idea.
She felt responsible for the awful things that were happening.

(34:09):
In Lori's words, she told herself, quote, I made this baby.
I'd better rock it.
I'd never heard that phrase before, but I think that's a pretty good phrase.
She knew it wasn't her fault for how he was acting, but by saying she'd made that baby,
she meant that she had willingly gotten involved with him and now she couldn't get rid of him.
She feared even worse retribution for the breakup.

(34:31):
He threatened harm to her family.
He had told her many times that if she wouldn't stay with him, no one else was going to have
her either.
And how many times do we hear that in relationships where the controlling partner says, well,
you don't want to be with me?
Well, then you aren't going to be with anybody.
Yes, absolutely.
In June 1986, John was arrested for stalking and harassing Lori.

(34:52):
He was taken to court where he was directed to stay away from Lori.
Lori feared that the charges would just aggravate him and wouldn't protect her if he got a light
sentence.
He dropped the charges and he was released.
A month later, he was again arrested for harassing Lori because in the 1980s, it was uncommon
for non-harm charges to amount to any kind of sentence that would actually protect her.

(35:13):
Lori knew even if he were convicted, he would be out soon and then even more upset with
her, making him even more dangerous.
So again, she dropped the charges.
Her mother, Frances, feeling the tension of what Lori was going through, wanted to be
near to Lori.
Frances was planning a move from Albany so she could be there to support her daughter
through this tumultuous time with John.

(35:36):
Her plan was to arrive in Indian Lake the week of August the 16th.
On August the 8th, a week before her mom was supposed to move there, Lori had returned
home to her apartment about 1130 PM.
John was in her apartment.
He attacked her and slapped her very hard and then he handed her a cup of tea, which
he told her to drink.

(35:57):
Yeah.
The following morning, August 9th, Lori awoke to the sound of her sister knocking on her
door.
Lori found herself naked and had no memory of anything after John had made her drink
the tea.
So he came out and just slapped her and here honey, have some tea, make yourself feel better.
He came out, he slapped her and said, drink this.
Okay.

(36:17):
So a little forceful.
Or I'll slap you more.
Okay.
Okay.
I got you.
Yeah.
It was a coercion.
He was not trying to make nice with the tea.
Okay.
I didn't know because you know, these personalities, they go hot and cold in a hot second, you
know?
That's a very good point.
Yeah.
That's valid.
So real quick, sorry to interrupt this story.
It's really good.

(36:37):
It's okay.
I like interaction.
Did John know that Lori's mom was coming to move to be closer?
I don't know because I don't think that Lori would have told him that.
Okay.
I think Lori was trying not to interact with him at all if possible, but he just wouldn't
go away.
Right.
I see.
Okay.
So, later that night, and remember in the morning she had awakened and had been drugged

(37:01):
the night before.
Later that night, Lori was in her bed sleeping, but was awakened by what sounded like the
window being opened.
Because of what had happened the previous night, Lori's sister was there staying with
her, and Lori called out to her sister that someone was opening the window.
As soon as she called for her sister, the person opening the window, which Lori assumed

(37:22):
and believed was John, ran away.
Lori called the state police to report that someone had been attempting to get through
her second story window.
The police arrived to investigate, but no one was found, and there was no evidence of
whom it might have been.
She was told by the police officer that she couldn't file a complaint about the attempted
entry because neither of the women had actually seen John.

(37:45):
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
With everything she's been through.
Okay.
They're telling her no.
So, obviously they didn't have CCTV either?
No.
In 1986, so I don't think that they probably had any CCTV.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
That was uncommon back then.
No, you're right.
Back in the old days.

(38:05):
She was told she could file a complaint about the apparent drugging of her the previous
night, but she couldn't file that complaint at the time because it was 11 o'clock PM,
and it was too late to awaken the judge.
Oh, wow.
So, the state police officer said that he would stay outside her apartment until the
morning, kind of guarding over her, and then he would send someone to see her in the morning

(38:25):
so she could get the complaint filed.
But in the morning, she could not find the officer who had said he would stand guard,
and no one had come to take her complaint.
I assume that he got called away on another call and just never returned.
Lori and her sister tried to call the police, but there was no answer.
Then they drove to the Indian Lake substation, but there was no personnel there to take her

(38:47):
complaint.
So, I don't know what's going on with the police in Indian Lake, but there aren't any,
apparently.
There's like one guy and he disappears.
Right.
Lori's sister eventually had to leave to go home, and Lori went to a friend's house for
dinner.
While at dinner, she saw John Brown speed past her location in his car.
So he's following her.

(39:08):
He may have been following her.
Okay.
Like, where you going, Lori?
I'm going to go there, too.
Oh, wow.
Around this time, early evening of August the 10th, John Brown had been sitting with
Edith Matthews in her home.
He sped past Lori at dinner, and then he went to Edith Matthews' home.
At Edith's house, he was very sullen and morose, and Edith was the mother of a longtime

(39:31):
friend of John's, so she had known him very well for a long time, and she was concerned
about him.
He sat with his knees pulled up to his chest and rested his chin on his knees in this juvenile
gesture of fear, sadness, and withdrawal, like he's in the fetal position.
Edith said John was acting very depressed, but that he was being a perfect gentleman.
She had known him over the years to have down periods and mood swings, but said that she

(39:54):
had never seen him become angry, and she had never seen a hint of violence from him.
Okay.
John left Mildred's home, and his next stop, naturally, for a stalker, was Lori's home.
Lori's second-floor apartment was located above a little store called the Cricket's
Gifts Shop.
In the early moments of August 11th, John climbed up to the second-story window and

(40:15):
slipped through into her apartment.
A neighbor later reported seeing him climbing through the window at about 1230 a.m.
Did they call the police?
Yeah, I wondered that too, but apparently that neighbor did not call the police, or
they did and nobody answered, because apparently nobody answers the phone at the police station.
Right.
John hid in Lori's shower, holding a.32 caliber revolver that he had stolen from a

(40:38):
co-worker's truck earlier the same day.
He stood there with his arms folded across his chest.
His face was like stone.
There was nothing in his expression that indicated any feeling at all.
Lori returned from the night with her friends and stepped into the bathroom just after 1230
a.m. to find John standing there in her shower.

(40:58):
Her blood ran cold with dread seeing him, and she turned to run.
As she frantically scrambled to escape the room, Brown raised the gun and shot at her.
The bullet hitting her in the back of her head.
In the process of trying to escape, being shot, falling to the floor, Lori knocked over
a lamp, hit an arrangement of records and knickknacks, and they all went flying.

(41:21):
Lori herself had fallen to the floor behind a lounge chair, unable to even break her own
fall.
In a final gesture of control and disrespect towards Lori, John raped her while she was
semi-conscious and unable to do anything at all to fight back.
John Brown then shot himself in the head.
Only two bullets were needed to cause all this harm, and he thought he'd accomplish

(41:44):
what he came there to do, to kill Lori and to kill himself.
If he couldn't have her, she wouldn't be with anyone at all, and he had told her that
many times before.
It just amazes me with domestic violence, and even if it progresses to what's happening
here in this scenario, I mean, there's so many red flags.

(42:04):
The police were called, somebody was seen trying to get into the window.
Did the owners, whoever owned the building, did they not come behind and try to secure
the, obviously they didn't, the window that he had gotten in a second time?
That's nuts.
Yeah.
I mean, it's August, so it's possible she was leaving the windows open.
Yeah, true.

(42:25):
It's 1984, a lot of places didn't have air conditioning.
Yeah, so true.
So it's either be in this stifling heat or open the window and let some fresh air in.
So, but at the second floor, you probably think it's pretty safe on the second floor,
right?
So yeah, you know, the weather's beautiful right now.
So the windows are open.

(42:45):
I don't leave the ones outside maybe my bedroom.
I'm going to close those.
Yeah.
But yeah, I sleep with my window open when I can.
It's not right there at first level.
It's probably like a one and a half levels up.
Yeah.
Yeah, I get it.
But you're right.
At some point, somebody must be thinking, well, maybe we should do something even if
the window has to be open.
Maybe we need to secure it somehow with bars or something.

(43:09):
But anyway, Lori's head wound was bleeding profusely and the blood from both of their
wounds was pooling.
It seeped through the floor, down through the floor structure, and then through the
ceiling of the first floor below her.
Oh my.
It took more than 12 hours though before Naomi Steele went into that room on the first floor
and saw the blood dripping from the ceiling.

(43:30):
Oh my goodness.
Can you imagine?
No.
Horrified, Naomi called police at around 1 30 in the afternoon on Monday, August the 11th.
John was dead lying face down on the floor by the time a state trooper who was in the
area, oddly enough, kicked down the door of the apartment.
Shortly afterward, the Indian Lake Rescue Squad arrived.

(43:53):
Lori was discovered in a semi conscious state still.
She was semi conscious when he shot her and she was still semi conscious.
Oh my gosh.
12 hours later, this girl's a fighter.
She is.
That's amazing.
She was taken to the Glens Falls Hospital and medical intervention there saved her life.
She was in critical condition after surgery to repair as much damage as could be repaired.

(44:19):
But doctors were not able to remove all of the bullet fragments in her brain.
Pieces of metal still impacted the portion of her brain that control her vision.
She was left blind from the attack.
Not partially, but completely.
Her eyes were okay, but it was the signals that couldn't get to her brain.
Okay.
So at that time she was completely blind.

(44:39):
Oh gosh.
While Lori was fighting for her life, an anonymous woman who felt that John had been a kind man
who was misunderstood and treated unfairly, donated $1,000 in a set of books entitled
Understanding Human Behavior to the Indian Lake Public Library with the stated intent
that the library would start a collection of books on human psychology.

(45:02):
And while on the surface it seems distasteful to make a contribution memorializing a man
who did such a horrific thing, I think it comes down to this donor not being able to
reconcile the John Brown that they knew with his horrible final acts and his obsessive
and cruel actions in the last few months of his life.
I have a question.
Was this person related to him or they just knew him?

(45:24):
They were anonymous, so they never said who it was, but I sort of wondered if it might
have been that mother of the friend who was talking about what a kind gentleman he always
was.
Okay.
So.
I see.
Well then too, I mean, Lori cannot have been the first person who suffered the abuse by

(45:44):
John.
He's had to have had a track record, don't you think?
It's possible.
Yeah.
There's a lot of adults that came forward and said that.
But by the time he's 31, this is not the first time he's tried to be coercing and controlling
someone in a relationship.
Right.
It doesn't happen overnight.
No.
I mean, it starts small.
It starts with things like, you know, where are you going?

(46:07):
Where are you going to be?
Call me when you get there.
Call me when you get home.
It's that kind of stuff.
And then it just grows to this over time.
So there probably were other red flags, but Lori had no way to know what those were.
She didn't have any way to know if he had done this to other people before.
No.
And you're not going to, when you're in a relationship, you are going to be that perfect

(46:28):
person at all times.
And you would not share something like that anyway.
No, of course not.
Because the people that do this sort of stuff never think they're doing anything wrong.
Right.
They think they're absolutely justified to be this way.
Right.
Narcissist at its finest.
Exactly.
It's not me.
It's you.
Mm hmm.
But Lori was still trying to heal and fighting every day for many days after the attempt

(46:52):
on her life, still in the intensive care unit while this donation showed up at the library
to memorialize John Brown, who had done this to her.
As her body and brain struggled to heal from the damage from the bullet, she was set back
in her recovery when she had a heart attack as a result of the stress on her body.
Oh no.
She also suffered two separate strokes.

(47:14):
Oh my gosh.
She also later contracted bacterial meningitis as a complication of what had happened to
her.
Oh wow.
Lori's friends visited her in the hospital and they feared the worst.
They thought she didn't look as if she could recover.
They thought they would be attending her funeral in the near future.
But Lori was a fighter and she worked hard to regain her health.

(47:37):
As she went through the first years of recovery, her brain was unable to receive the signals
that her eyes were trying to send it.
A doctor in the hospital after her injury had told her she would never be able to see
again.
She suddenly couldn't drive anymore, she had lost a lot of her independence, she had
to rely on friends or family to get her to places that she needed to go or wanted to

(47:57):
go or just felt like going.
She lived with her blindness and while she thought how much she wanted to prove that
doctor wrong, she still had to live in the dark.
But her blindness didn't prevent Lori from living her life.
Lori filed a lawsuit against the state of New York for not protecting her from John.
After all the calls and attempts to reach them in the preceding days and just hours

(48:18):
before the final attack.
Good for her.
The court ruled that while the state police undertook an affirmative duty to act on Lori's
behalf, they weren't convinced that she had justifiably relied on the state police's
acting on her behalf.
In other words, although the police had promised to help her get a report filed and hopefully
to arrest John when Lori had seen him at 5 o'clock p.m. that day, she knew he had not

(48:43):
been arrested so she should not have relied on the state police by that point to protect
her from John.
So Lori lost her case and on appeal the judgment against her was confirmed.
That's frustrating.
That's just wrong.
It's frustrating because she tried so hard.
Yeah, yes.
You know, she had dropped the charges twice before, but he hadn't raped her.

(49:08):
He hadn't drugged her at that point.
By the time he's drugged you, raped you, left you naked in your apartment, that's such a
violation.
That's just beyond obscene.
And at this point she had such a reason to have him arrested.
Yes.
And the unfortunate part here is that's so common for victims to drop charges is so common.

(49:31):
Yeah.
Because at that point, if all he's done is confront you and steal your mail, yeah, mail
theft is a federal offense, but...
Yeah, but that's not harming anybody, you know.
Yeah.
So it's not going to get him immediately out of your orbit.
Right.
That would, to me, be...
Okay.
Is it just a simple act of violation there?

(49:54):
Yes.
You know, just from all the stories that we hear that it does build up and, you know,
the victims, they're caught between the rock and the hard place.
If I try to leave, what's going to happen?
So a lot of them stay just because of that.
Yeah.

(50:14):
Well, we've talked about it probably on 40% of the cases that we've covered.
As soon as the victim tries to leave, the perpetrator has nothing left to lose at this
point because all they want is to control that person.
And if they've completely lost control, they don't care what happens now.
They're going to get their revenge.

(50:35):
So leaving is such a dangerous time.
And that's what's going on here.
Lori said, see you.
And he lost it.
Going through this terrifying and painful experience could have hardened Lori and made
her cynical towards other people's needs.
It's like, I don't care what you're going through.
Look what happened to me.
So Lori already had worked in the Center for Intellectually Challenged Children.

(50:57):
And after this horrific event that she had survived, she decided she had something to
offer other people who might experience things that challenge them physically or mentally.
She began volunteering at the Wisswall Center for Independent Living, where people with
special needs were able to go for resources, classes, help, and encouragement.
Her empathy provided a common chord with people who have physical or mobility challenges.

(51:21):
The Wisswall Center is now known as the Southern Adirondack Independent Living Center.
Lori said in a 1999 interview, quote, I tell them that they can succeed.
I'm living proof of that.
We are not disabled.
We are physically challenged.
And there is a big difference.
Lori knew that sighted people tend to take their vision for granted.
They forget what a gift it is to be able to see.

(51:43):
She made a point that when she's walking down the street and needs help in locating something
she's trying to find, she doesn't hesitate to ask someone to assist her.
Given that she walks with a white cane, they can easily determine that she is not able
to see.
But still, every time she asks for this kind of assistance, the person mindlessly turns
and points in the direction that Lori needs to go.

(52:04):
She could see the motion, but she can't see where they're telling her to go.
And she has to say, I know they're pointing, but I have to ask, where are you pointing?
Over the years, Lori was featured in quite a few newspaper articles pointing out a commendation
that were being developed to make it easier or possible for the blind to participate in
normal everyday activities.
She was in an article about the drive to add narration to movies on the big screen to make

(52:29):
it possible for a sightless person to follow the action.
Because if you have sight, you never may have considered that.
Oh, wow.
What's it like to go to a movie when you hear noise, you hear music, you hear talking?
Yes.
But what if there's a big action sequence?
You have no idea what's going on.
But we take so much for granted until it's not there.

(52:51):
Yeah, we do.
And I've noticed the last, well, I can't remember the last time I went to a movie theater.
Well, me neither.
But things happen there.
Yeah.
Do you need help?
Action narration is now a common thing that's available for sightless people.
So I think that's awesome.

(53:12):
She was also featured in an article where the Bureau of Elections in New York was testing
out accessible voting equipment that allowed her to choose and vote for candidates as guided
by voice narration through a pair of headphones.
Before this development, Lori had always had to share her voting choices with someone else
who she trusted to fill out her absentee voting card for her.

(53:32):
And imagine that your votes are not your private business.
Now you have to share them with someone who's going to transcribe them and you just have
to trust that person's not going to, oh, well, I don't agree with that one.
So I will overrule this and I will vote for the other candidate.
I mean, hopefully you've got trustworthy people that aren't going to do that, but you don't
know.
Right.

(53:53):
Because we know we shouldn't be talking politics because everybody has that opinion and I hope
she did have somebody that she could try.
I'm sure she did.
You know?
Absolutely.
I hope so too.
But she shouldn't have to do that.
She should have the ability to vote privately like everybody else.
Absolutely.
Over time, Lori's brain healed enough that she began to be able to see some changes in

(54:14):
light.
She could raise objects or books to within a few inches of her eyes and see them enough
to identify them or to read if the font was big enough.
She could also follow a TV show if she sat within about four feet of the screen.
So her vision didn't completely come back, but it did heal enough that she was able to

(54:35):
function a little bit better than before.
I did not realize too, cause you were talking about pointing in what directions.
So she had a little bit of sight, but that's amazing.
Four feet is actually a long way.
Yeah.
And there was all text on the screen.
She would probably have to get closer.
You know, like a computer monitor, she would have to be closer.

(54:55):
But for watching a soap opera, you know, I think she could sit far enough and she could
just see the people moving around.
She could see if they embraced.
Right.
Yeah.
That was a really good development in her life.
Oh, good for her.
So while Lori was handed a really crappy hand to play, although she had done nothing to
deserve what happened to her, she went forward in her life with grace.

(55:19):
Lori struggled with accepting how different her life had become, how much her independence
was disrupted, and how much of her life overall had been changed by one person's selfish
choice in 1986.
But throughout the daily struggle to keep moving forward and being a positive force
in the world, every time she worked with people at the Independent Living Center, she knew

(55:39):
she'd helped someone, been a positive influence in their lives.
And she was reminded of that every time she walked out that door.
And that's about all that's available about our good-hearted survivor Lori Melanson, who
was one of the unfortunate people who just get latched onto by unhealthy stalker types
who will not let them go and live their life.

(56:00):
As far as I can tell, Lori is still living.
And I have to believe that means she's still making positive impacts on those around her.
So that is the story of Lori Melanson, our hero of the day.
Oh, I'm sure she is.
I love that she survived.
And she's so strong.
What a great, independent, influential person.

(56:21):
I have goosebumps, Beth.
This is amazing.
Good for her.
I had read an article that just made a quick mention, like a one sentence mention that
John Brown had also burned down her parents' retirement home.
But I couldn't find that validated anyplace, so I didn't really include it in here.
Right.
But that just goes to show you the terror he was inflicting on this family.

(56:45):
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
And it was extended not... That's crazy.
It was extended not just to her, but her family members.
There's nothing right about that.
No.
Oh, that was good.
The thing is though, like you mentioned earlier, these domestic violence and assault cases
that are so... You see it coming.

(57:08):
You can see it coming because we've seen so many of these cases.
We know he's going to turn the corner and drop that shoe that can't be undropped.
You can't unring the bell.
And this guy was going to do something violent to Lori.
But Lori hadn't had this relationship before.
She didn't know as much about domestic violence cases as you and I do.

(57:31):
She didn't know.
She had no way to predict this.
No.
But when she asked for help, nobody helped her.
Yeah, that's crazy.
I don't know about you, Beth, but I have witnessed people in those types of relationships.
It's really hard as an outsider looking in, like how involved are you supposed to get

(57:57):
in, what direction do I need to go?
It's very difficult even for those people that are not in that situation.
Yeah, it is.
And I did a case a few episodes ago and Rachel from Australia, the survivor in that case
actually said, if you see that your friends are in a bad situation, don't just let it

(58:19):
go.
Don't say they know what they're doing.
They'll be okay.
Because they may not have any idea how to get out of it.
Right.
Help them find resources and offer help, offer to let them have a place to stay.
Yes.
But yes, absolutely everything that you were saying 100%.
However, we're going to go back to the victim who does not see that leaving or taking action

(58:46):
is going to benefit them in any way.
There's so many people, we already said it once, but so many people stay for the wrong
reasons.
But in some places, there just aren't any local resources for people to get up, pick
up their bag and go.
True.
If you don't have a safe place to land when you leave that house, that's going to make
it extra hard for you to get up and go.

(59:09):
Sure.
Yeah.
A lot of women's shelters, and I know it's not only women who are abused and threatened
by their partners, but a lot of women's shelters don't even have published addresses because
they want the survivor to go and have a place where there's no possible way for someone
to find them.
They have to individually get that address from someone.

(59:29):
Yes.
And then how do you do that?
It can take a long time.
Yes.
I think there are more resources available now, a lot more resources available now than
there were in 1986.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it wasn't as publicly known how these relationships devolve.
That devolution of relationships is terrifying.

(59:52):
Well, I'm glad that she survived.
I'm glad that Lori's...
Oh my gosh.
I'm just thrilled that her sight came back enough.
And her spirit, she seems nothing stopped her from doing what she had to do to move
on with her life and that.
Oh my gosh.
Is she doing public speaking anywhere?
I don't think so.
I didn't find anything.

(01:00:12):
I would have thought if she was doing something like that, she would have had a website.
And I couldn't find any update on what she's doing now, like today.
So she's just living her life.
I think she's just living a private life because they said at the beginning that she was very
quiet, kind of kept to herself.
She didn't really want to go out there and beat the big drum.

(01:00:34):
She just wanted to live her life.
Well good for you, Lori.
That was a great story, Beth.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for bringing us the story of Erin Hernandez because I really did learn a lot
in your telling of that.
Thanks.
Do you have any last things that you want to tell people about how to find your podcast
or where you can be found on social media?

(01:00:56):
Absolutely.
You can find me on hashtag dying to be found and that's dying the number two, the letter
B found.
I'm actually doing a little bit more on TikTok these days, but I would say Instagram is probably
the number one.
I do have Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, TikTok.
Instagram is probably my number one.

(01:01:17):
I do have a website dying to be found.com.
Then if you go to any of my podcasts, you'll see a link tree and you can basically see
everything there.
And basically if you do any search on any of the podcast sites on Spotify, Apple, Amazon
Music, dying to be found, you'll find me.
Google me, you'll find me.

(01:01:37):
Okay.
Awesome.
Thank you for being here.
I really enjoyed having you Deb and I hope everybody will go find you.
Thanks so much for having me today.
That was such a great story and I appreciate you having me as a guest.
Thank you Deb.
It was great having you and everybody please come back in two more weeks.
I don't know what I'll have for you then, but I'll have something.

(01:01:59):
All right.
Thank you.
Have a great day everybody.
Bye.
So what are you going to do to prove it?
See here we go.
Scratch that.
My daughter Shelby, she helped me along the way because my nephew whom I'm neck and neck

(01:02:21):
with, I think he's a little competitive.
You know, look, I can't read out loud just so you know.
So you're going to have a little bit of an headache if your head falls off.
You were trying to read and I cut you off.
Oh no, no, no, no.
I am not reading, but I'll do it again.
Hit really hard.
Sorry.
I'm going to have to edit that smack out.

(01:02:42):
See I couldn't even say it.
I worked in the medical field for 15 years.
There you go.
Okay.
Something is going bumpy bumpy on your end.
Really?
Stop thumping.
Thumping.
Okay.
Sorry.
I was trying to like take notes, but I won't do that.
You don't have to do that.
It's because I'm on the bed.
That's the only place that I can get good sound.

(01:03:04):
It's wiggly.
Is it okay if I ask you questions?
First of all, how old is Lori?
Yes.
So we sped past where Lori was at dinner and then he went to Edith Matthew.
Oops.
I just whacked my microphone.
Whoops.
John had in Lori's staff in Lori's stower, taking his tower could be done as could.

(01:03:26):
That doesn't make any sense.
As much damage as I'll fix that later.
Neither of those makes any sense.
Okay.
There's my cat.
Oh yes.
Bailey, can you come save me?
Let me text her real quick.
She's upstairs.
Or you can just bring puts into the screen.

(01:03:49):
I've locked her out of this room.
Oh, she's outside.
Yes.
She's that loud.
I just texted.
Help, help, help.
Are you out there?
Yeah.
Thank you.
Saved from the big black bear monster.
Did she get her sight back?

(01:04:10):
Let's just keep going.
What?
13 years after, then is it possible?
So anyway, we'll get there, but that's why I asked the question.
Well, I know why you asked the question, but you still have to wait because I have another
paragraph before I get there.
Narration.
All right.
I'm getting to the end of this and I'm starting to lose my focus.

(01:04:33):
I don't know.
I was not even prepared to look that up, but I'll look that up real fast.
You have to say bye too.
Nobody ever wants to say bye.
When you asked me to... Hold on.
I'm sorry.
You're going to have to clip this out.
Don't put it at the end of your podcast now.
I might.
Everything's open for the bloopers.
That's okay.

(01:04:53):
Thanks for listening to Dying to be Failed.
True Crime podcast and our Dash mini series.
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(01:05:14):
Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found, or visit
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Better yet, click on our Linktree account found in the show notes, where you'll find
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(01:05:38):
get together with some of my family members.
Thanks again everyone, and we'll talk to you soon.