Episode 352: In the Dynamics Corner Chair: The Importance of Asking 'Why' in ERP Implementations

🍗🍂🏈 Which is better -- Canadian Thanksgiving or American Thanksgiving? Join hosts Brad Prendergast and Kristoffer Ruyeras in this latest episode of the Dynamics Corner as they sit down with Jenn Claridge to settle this debate, once and for all!

But that's not all we talked about. We tackled the real challenges of ERP implementations, covering the critical need for effective communication, understanding client requirements, and collaboration. We also highlight the importance of clear terminology to avoid requirement misunderstandings as you plan and execute an implementation.  

Jenn also shares her expert insights on:

🔑 Understanding current business processes for ERP success.

💡 Why subject matter experts are key to identifying essential features.

🔄 Carefully considering modifications to prevent ERP complications.

🔁 The role of feedback loops in successful implementations.

🕒 Involving the right people at the right time.

🌱 Not overwhelming users with too many options.

🤝 Using collaborative workshops and managing change from the start of a project.

🏫 The key difference between training and consulting. 

Watch here and see who won the Thanksgiving debate: 🇺🇸 or 🇨🇦?

Send us a text

#MSDyn365BC #BusinessCentral #BC #DynamicsCorner

Follow Kris and Brad for more content:
https://matalino.io/bio
https://bprendergast.bio.link/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Dynamics
Corner.
Who do you need?
Who do I need forimplementations?
I'm your co-host, Chris.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
This is Brad.
This episode was recorded on12-2, december 2nd 2024.
Like how I did that, chris,here we are just finished up the
Thanksgiving holiday.
I am still full of cheer andfood, and now we're coming into
the Christmas holiday season,which is another cheerful and

(00:34):
festive holiday season with lotsof food.
And before we venture into themonth of December, we had the
opportunity today to speak withthis great guest about ERP
implementations, what goes intoan ERP implementation and how
much information you should putinto an ERP implementation.
With us today, we had theopportunity to speak with Jen
Clarich.
Hello, Good afternoon.

(01:03):
Hello, how are you doing?
Good afternoon.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
Good, how are you?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Very well, very well, I'm full still from
Thanksgiving.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
I can imagine.
How was it?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
It was amazing.
All I did was eat, eat and eat.
I know you don't have theopportunity to celebrate that up
there.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
We do, we just do it much much earlier.
I'm usually doing it it well.
The last two years I've beendoing it with my closest friends
and family at summit, so it'shappened over the summit weekend
.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
So oh yeah, but but next year you can do that yeah
yeah, next year it won't be waita minute so I didn't have the
opportunity to participate inthe Canadian Thanksgiving with
you.

Speaker 4 (01:46):
That's right.
That's right.
We have to cancel thisdiscussion now I was excluded
from the celebration.
I didn't send out the invites.
Let's just be real clear onthat.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
What's the staple food for Thanksgiving or
Canadian Thanksgiving?

Speaker 4 (02:02):
Turkey, same turkey.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Oh, turkey yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
All the same stuff, are you?

Speaker 2 (02:08):
You haven't learned.
Canada wants to be the UnitedStates.
So they said, oh, let's just ohI don't.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
I don't think, so that I am not so sure of.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
I think we are quite happy where we are especially
lately yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
In the cold.
Yeah, yeah especially lately.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, in the cold, yeah, yeah, we'll leave you guys
in the cold, it's three degreescelsius.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
It's not that bad.
We have to do the translation.
Three degrees celsius is 32yeah, you do the math that it's
like 60 almost almost freezing.
No, 30, zero is freezing.
So then I think you like doubleit and add 32, so so that's 36,
and 32 is 38 degrees.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
There you go.
You figured out, I was justgoing to take a look and see
what is it what?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
is it Was I correct.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
Let me see if I can change it quickly on my computer
to Fahrenheit.
I don't know how to change it.
I just got a new computer sogoogle it, chris.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Did you get it yet, chris?

Speaker 4 (03:11):
you gotta bing it.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Oh wait, google see now she's trying to do like you
gotta bing it.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
Where's this any anything that?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
we say she'll, she'll do the opposite just to keep it
interesting.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Keep you on your toes that's it so.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Three right 37.4 38 degrees.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
You were the one caught in a snowstorm.
Last time you were caught in astorm or something me or Chris.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Chris was caught in a storm.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
I was caught in a storm we had well recently.
We had a power outage and wedidn't have power for five days.
Oh, that's crazy, so that'syeah, that's pretty crazy,
because they're not used tohaving cyclones come through.
We get windy weather, but notcycloneone, which is equivalent

(04:05):
to a hurricane.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
I don't I don't think it's a matter of them getting
used to it or not.
I think when you havedestruction, a natural disaster,
whether it be a cyclone,tornado or hurricane, I think
we're just not used to pickingup trees off of power lines fair
enough.
I think fair enough it's notwhat caused it, it's how much

(04:26):
damage was caused and what ittakes to pick it up, but
thankfully we're able to catchup again and I'm looking forward
to it.
And so just to go back to theCanadian Thanksgiving, because I
never I see it on the calendarhere and there or.
I hear about oh, it's CanadianThanksgiving, it happens, it
does happen, it happens.
What is the celebration forCanadian Thanksgiving if they're

(04:50):
not copying in the UnitedStates?

Speaker 4 (04:52):
So you guys go above and beyond, like with the
parades and the football andeverything.
Like it's similar but not thesame, like we're not as big on
it, I would say.
But we do the traditional thing.
Like you get together with yourfamily, you know there's turkey
, there's ham, there's stuffing,there's mashed potatoes.
Like you go around the tableand you say what you've you're

(05:13):
thankful for, right?
So, of course, because I was atsummit, I was thankful for
co-pilot and sales agents andall the things.
But normally it might be likemy health or beautiful weather
or whatever.
But yeah, it's the same idea.
You just get together with yourfamily, you eat a ton of food.
You have pumpkin pie withwhipped cream oh, I love pie.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
I had some good stuff green bean casserole, sweet
potatoes I don't think I had.
We had mashed potatoes.
I don't think I ate them.
I had turkey, I had ham, I hadapple pie, I had apple crisp, I
had cheesecake.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Oh, apple crisp is the go-to I had macaroni and
cheese.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
So you have everything I ate so much.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
That's why he's still full, Chris.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, you got leftovers.
My stomach is sticking outstill and if you press it it's
hard.
So that's how much food I have.
But let's go back to it.
Why do you celebrateThanksgiving?
And I'm still don't talk aboutbeing at Summit, because I'm
still mad, because Chris and Iwould have crashed the party.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
We're just thankful Is it Well, because Thanksgiving
here has a history right.
Yes, so what's the history ofThanksgiving for Canada?
Like why Thanksgiving?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
I honestly don't know .

Speaker 4 (06:33):
I just show up to my mom because I don't like cooking
.
I don't know.
The history is.
My mother told me we had tocelebrate.
Yeah, you show up, you say whatyou're thankful for, you get
along with your brothers.
That's how it's always beenthat's funny that's funny.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
That is that is funny .
Well, you know what I skippedturkey this year did you
actually went with.
Just yeah, I skipped turkey.
Turkey, it's a little tough tocook, uh, if you don't have an
oven.
I don't have an oven right nowbecause just right now the
kitchen, okay yeah, but andafter this maybe we'll we won't
do turkey we typically do hambut we did brisket this year and

(07:05):
it's much better than turkey,because turkey gets pretty dry
if you don't do it right.
Smoke a turkey.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
You can smoke a turkey.
I've done smoked turkey beforePeople.
That was a big thing, right,deep fried turkey.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
I saw those deep fried videos.
I'm not deep frying anything.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Dangerous.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, so you don't normally.
So what did you guys both do?
You got together with yourfamily, I assume.
Yes, yes, yep, I got togetherwith family.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Usually there's a lot of eating, a lot of drinking.
I did not partake in thedrinking because it affects my
sleep and I'm focusing on mysleep.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
And it retains food in your system longer.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yes, it impacts you in many ways, but that's what
yeah, same thing that you hadmentioned, but we do it because
we have a historical reason forit.
Um, and depending upon how youlook at the story.
You know some, some, some lookat it differently than others,
but it's a historical reason forit.

(08:09):
But it's the same thing, justeat.
It is my favorite holiday ofthe year because there is no
pressure.
The only pressure is what do Ibring, and what I mean by what
do I bring?
It's not like.
Christmas, Christmas a lot ofpeople get anxious about because
it's you know, do I buy a gift,Do I go to this person?
Do I like a gift and you knowthere's getting together

(08:30):
differently.
This is the one holiday whereit's just to eat and be married
Get together.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Unless you're hosting .
When you're hosting, it'spretty.
It's a lot of pressure andstress because now you're going
to set the table, depending onhow many people you have.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Okay, now we're setting rules on it, okay.
If you're hosting it's, it'snot as fun, but if you're a
participant, that's true butBrad doesn't host it, so he
keeps it easy.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
He's like I'm a guest .

Speaker 4 (08:57):
I'm a guest only.
I host enough podcasts that Idon't need to host Thanksgiving
as well.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Okay, I've done my part.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
jen is my new best friend and I'm almost going to
forgive you for not.
Well, maybe by the end of thiswe can get there I'm not going
to.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
I still won't get over not being invited to summit
thanksgiving because I didn'teven know there was a community
summit thanksgiving this year no, this isn't a real thing.
Thanksgiving this is.
I just went to summit in texas,that's it.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
There was no, like I said, so you do you see how
quickly things get started?
I was at summit wow, well thenyou came.
Thanks for saying hi.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Actually, now I'm mad at you wait, but you said you
had thanksgiving while you wereat summit no, I, I just
considered that my Thanksgiving.
Oh, I misunderstood what youwere saying.
I thought that you had gottogether with friends or
counterparts while you were atSummit.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
Everyone in Canada Canada side, my family, like
they got together.
I don't even know if they didactually, because we're kind of
spread out now.
But then I considered, becauseI didn't have any kind, I had to
travel for Summit, so I justcalled that my Thanksgiving.
So whoever I sat with for lunchthat day, I said thanks.
You know, what are you guysgrateful for?
And we made it our thing and Ithink they were actually all

(10:19):
comedians.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
So Thanksgiving in Canada is second Monday in
October.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah, it's much earlier than that.
Well, we do it Thursday.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
We do it the third Thursday or the last Thursday of
the month.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
It's always the Monday for us.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
See, they're always trying, but why, chris?
You know why?
Because we need a.
We know what you do, we knowwhen it is, but why is it there?
Well, I want to know why youguys, we know when it is.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
But why is it there?
Well, I want to know why youguys do it on a Thursday.
Is it just so you can get theFriday off too?
Justify the Friday off.
Is this what I see?
What's happening here?

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Chris, you can look that up.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
So I have to look this up why Canadians celebrate
Thanksgiving.
There's really no reason.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
That's why you couldn't tell us.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Because there's no reason.
That's what I figured.
As far as I know, it saysyou're just giving thanks for
the harvest and good fortunethey've experienced in the past
year.
Right Now there are datesdating back in 1578.
Someone landed in the bay inRobert Wolf Hall.
Okay, Bobby.
And they just had Hall.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
Okay, bobby.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
And they just had dinner.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Perfect.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
That's so nice.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
That's it All right.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
In 1879, they officially name it as a national
holiday.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
When did the United States name Thanksgiving a
national holiday, Chris.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Let's see.
Well, let me finish.
Canadians did 1879.
The first Thanksgiving Day forCanadians is 1872.
So yeah, so United States, I'vegot to look it up.
Thanksgiving, let's take a look.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
You should have had this prepared, Chris.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
You had to know I know he's usually rather quick
with the google or the chat gpt.
That's where he has the namechris 1621 oh well, it's linked
back.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
So the see canadia, canadia, canadian was 1872 1879
so maybe, maybe that was like,hey, we could get a couple extra
days off.
Let's, let's have one of thesethanksgivings, you know make it
a national.
On a monday, just so that theydon't catch on to us well, you

(12:39):
get a long weekend well, that'sexactly it, but you guys get an
extra long weekend because youdo not.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Everybody has the friday off after thanksgiving.
Most people will give floatholidays and most people will
take the day off, but it's not aa holiday the day after
thanksgiving some places okay,let me take it back first.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Thanksgiving was thursday, november 26, 17.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yes, that's why it's on Thursday.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
Okay.
So then you kept that traditionof keeping it as a Thursday.
Correct, perfect.
And because we just made oursup, we said hey, let's always
get a long weekend, we'll do iton Monday, Perfect.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
No, they said hey, the United States is doing it we
should do the same thing.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
The US is doing it.
We should do the same thing.
The us is doing it on thursday.
They may or may not get fridayoff for a four-day weekend.
Let us happen on monday.
We really don't have a reasonfor it.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
But if the us can pull off a long weekend, we can
and it's worked out for clearlya very long time yes so as long
as I've been around and I'm sure, a lot longer 21 years after
you, you're only 21.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
No, I didn't know that.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
But the fact that you questioned that.
Really, I'm gonna carry.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I'm thankful for that you should be thankful to that,
and we're also thankful tospeak with you today, because I
had a lot of questions or topicsor points in my mind that I
wanted to speak with you.
But before we do that, now thatwe have Thanksgiving out of the
way and we know that you're 21,would you mind telling us a
little bit about yourself?

Speaker 4 (14:13):
Yeah, so my name is Jen Claridge.
I'm the vice president of theERP practice at Sabre.
So we're a manufacturingvertical focus partner that
focuses on the ERPimplementations Business Central
out of Canada.
So we do mostly remote but wedo all fixed fee in the
manufacturing space.
So I've been with Sabre since2008.

(14:33):
So you know close to my wholelife.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's what I was going to say, I mean you you
must've been about.
You know five.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
You started working there I'm really I'm an
overachiever.
So, yeah, I've been here since2008.
So I started as a consultant wewere actually doing a different
ERP at the time and then I'vejust kind of through the jigs
and the reels, worked my waythrough now.
So, yeah, Excellent, excellent.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Which part of Canada are you in?

Speaker 4 (15:04):
So I'm in the Niagara region but we actually, through
COVID, we got rid of all of ouroffices.
So we've got people in Guelph,we've got people in Kitchener,
we've got people in Europe.
We've got people kind of spreadout all over.
We're mostly in Canada like ourconsultants or Europe, but we
do.
A lot of our stuff is remote,so we've got partners in both
Canada and the US.

(15:24):
We're actually split prettynicely now, but I'm in the
Niagara region, close to NiagaraFalls.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
I was going to say, is that near Toronto?
So it's about an hour and 15from Toronto, niagara, but you
can go right over the border toBuffalo.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, it's perfect because I'm in the middle of the
Buffalo airport and the Torontoairport.
So when I'm looking to fly outI just look at the best flights
and I do try and avoid Torontojust because of the traffic.
But yeah, it's pretty central.
It works out really really well.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
So Sabre is a fully remote organization with
consultants in the United States, canada and Europe and you
focus on manufacturingimplementations for Business
Central.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
Right, so we do only manufacturing.
We don't really do the foodprocessing but everything else.
So we're really focused inengineer to order, repetitive
production, really all the othermodes.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Excellent.
It's nice.
And that fully remote, it canbe challenging in a sense for,
you know, sometimes for thetalent that you have working at
an organization, I think to tofeel included.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
So I'm sure you so we do different things.
Like on Tuesday we do like abig meeting and it's really just
like a water cooler, like wereally spend about an hour and
we just sort of talk about likelife and what's going on.
And we do a little bit ofbusiness stuff.
So we'll talk a little bitabout sales and marketing and
things that are coming up, but alot of it is just to feel like
that collegial, feel connected,learn about each other, kind of

(16:54):
try and keep that relationship.
And we do some things together,like so for Christmas we'll get
together locally if we can andthen we'll try and put up like a
team's meeting or something sothat people can call in and have
a chat.
But we do a little bit on site.
But I would say it's like veryrare Customers don't really need
it anymore and they don't wantto pay for it, they don't want
to commit to a full day of aconsultant being on site.

(17:17):
So you know, we were starting todo that quite a while ago and
it just works out really wellfor us.
And then we started, we and itjust works out really well for
us.
And then we started we would goto the office, but then half
the time people weren't there.
So when our lease went up wejust kind of said, let's not
renew it.
And it's actually worked outsuper well.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think that does work out well and thankfully
with technology, as you hit on acouple of points with the
customers the full day on siteor even if you have a full
travel day on either end for aconsultant.
That's a little wear and tearon them.
There's also an additionalexpense, but when you're on site
with a customer if you're thereall day, then they're disrupted

(17:55):
for an entire day.
So, not going into the officegives you the opportunity to
have half day sessions or one ortwo hour sessions, without the
travel, the burden around it.
That's great.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
And then also even dealing with traffic too.
I mean just going into theoffice, the amount of time that
you waste just sitting intraffic and if you total that
your career 15 years ago it wasall you're on site, right, like
it was customers wanted youthere.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
So it was the same thing.
Like three, four days I'mdriving to Toronto.
I'm getting speeding tickets attimes you know what I mean but
you're going, it's exhausting.
Then you're running back.
It's a lot to balance.
You would show up and half thetime you're waiting around for
the first hour anyway becausethey're rolling in and they've
got to check their email andthey've got to touch base with
Bill before they can come overKaren or whoever it is.

(18:43):
So I found a lot of the timesyou're having actually a
constructive like four, five,six hours because the time that
they can commit to you is less.
So when you do the remote itallows you to see three, four
customers in a day and they getfatigued, right Like they can
only handle an hour, an hour anda half.
We have some customers this istheir first ERP implementation

(19:05):
so it's very overwhelming forthem.
So once they hit that hour markthey're starting to glaze over,
they're starting to feeloverwhelmed.
There's the whole changemanagement side of things.
You've got to kind of wean themin.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
So it's been nice because there isn't that added
pressure to try and make themost of the mileage or the
travel, because you you knowthat you've only got that hour
yeah, I I agree that hittingthat 90 minute even discovery
sessions, it's tough because uminformation details falls apart

(19:39):
as you get to 90 minutes, a goodhour, and giving yourself 30
minutes after, even if you haveto need that extra 30 minutes to
collect your notes with copilot, makes it easy.
Now, but 90 minutes I mean.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
I've seen people just like yeah, they're thinking
about something else now they'resurfing the internet and if
their cameras are on, you canalmost see the moment right
where you've just they'restarting to kind of.
You can see that they're on asecond screen or whatever.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, no, it's.
It's those short directmeetings, which also is the one
we wanted to talk about, whichgets me why people book back to
back to back to back meetings.
Because there is, if you put me, three meetings for an hour in
a row by the time I finished thethird one, I don't even
remember the first one.
Right, it's, it's, it's the samething when you go to have the
meetings with customers or withanybody.

(20:25):
You both made valid points thatthere is a certain point where
you lose them and then theystart worrying about oh, I'm
missing the emails from this.
Oh there's a shipping problemthat I need to address, but I
have to focus on this for anhour or so.
It gives them the opportunityto do so.
So good, I'm learning a lot andI like that.

(20:45):
So you work with ERPimplementations and you said
that you have a customer workingwith the first time for an ERP
implementation.
You've worked with ERPimplementations and, chris, this
kind of goes to you.
I haven't had a chance to speakwith you about this yet, either
believe it or not.
In all the times that we talkto you, I haven't had a chance
to speak with you about this yet, either believe it or not.

(21:06):
In all the times that we talk,how much detail should go into
an ERP system?
This is a blanket question.
But when someone's goingthrough an ERP implementation
and they're working on eithermigrating from an external
system into it and that externalsystem could be a piece of
paper, right?
So somebody's tracking thebusiness somewhere.
But if you take a look atBusiness Central, you have
something with items, right?
We're talking aboutmanufacturing.

(21:27):
You have items.
Items have categories, itemshave attributes, right?
There's a lot of opportunity toenter data into the system.
How do you work through with acustomer to determine what level
of detail or data that they putinto the system.
It's a very vague and broadquestion.

Speaker 4 (21:46):
I know it's like such a vague question, but it's like
it's so opportunistic, I wouldsay right, and I think
throughout, kind of twice a year, we hear about all the new
releases and we hear aboutCopilot and AI and sales agents
and all the things that peoplecan do, and it can be
overwhelming, and I think whathappens is that we can sometimes
get so lost in the setups andthe features and everything that

(22:08):
we can do.
I think one of the big thingswe need to focus on is the
information and the questions.
What are your current businessprocesses?
What is working well?
What information are youcollecting today?
What can't you do becauseyou're not collecting a certain
piece of information?
And look more at what are yourcustomers asking you for, what

(22:29):
are your vendors asking you for,your managers asking you for?
Try and make it.
There's a saying make it assimple as you possibly can
without making it any simpler,and that's really what you want
to do is start with what is itthat you currently collect?
What is it that you're you?
Fundamentally, your business issuffering.
Maybe this is why you'regetting the ERP system what are

(22:50):
you missing?
And then sort of just startthere and then, from there, have
users pilot, have users giveyou feedback on what more you
need.
Right, like oh, I need morecategorizations in the
attributes or in the data, butdon't turn something on or ask

(23:11):
someone to collect something,just in case somebody might need
to analyze it later, and Ithink that's a mistake that gets
made.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
I see that a lot and that's where this question comes
to mind is I've talked withindividuals through
implementations and you explainitem categories.
For example, because it's ait's, I've used items one
because you work with me,specialize in manufacturing
implementations, and two itemsare one area where it can really
get draining because you haveitem categories.

(23:41):
How do you categories youritems?
And I've seen someimplementations where they have
so many categories that it'soverwhelming and I don't even
know how they analyze it becauseit's overwhelming.
And then you add the attributesto it and they get hung up on
the implementation becausethey're trying to figure out a
way to categorize.
I've even had a conversationwith someone something as simple

(24:02):
as a customer posting group.
And they wanted to go throughand put as much detail as
possible into a customer postinggroup and it became
overwhelming.
And it seems to add to the youmentioned change management but
the comfortableness of moving toa new system or a different
system or upgrading it.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
And those are one of the things that I always ask
about is the adoptabilitystandpoint right?
The more detail, the more setup, the more configuration you're
turning on, just in case we'llcall it it's are your users
going to adopt that?
Like?
There's the change management.
Like we talk a lot about theintegration of the system, but
we forget sometimes that we'realso integrating people into
this and we want to make surethat it's easy enough that they

(24:46):
get the data that they need, butnot so complex and so much data
entry and administrativenightmare that they'll just
start to circumvent the process.
So an idea, too, is that.
So I see it.
A lot in manufacturing.
Back in the day, there used tobe the most intelligent part
numbers going right, likeengineers could look at a part
number and tell you everythingabout it the material, the gauge

(25:08):
, the thickness, like everysingle thing in life.
But now, as you kind of maturein these ERP systems, it becomes
so important to understand,like what are the fields, what
are the opportunities, what'sthe functionality do?
And now you're moving towards asemi-intelligent part number or
even a dummy part number,because you have so many other

(25:29):
fields that you can leverage toget the data in that you need
right.
So that's the thing I would belooking at is just what is it do
you actually need?
And do you need it to all comefrom one source?
Because with Power BI andanalytics analytics sometimes
you can pull data from otherplaces.
The user thinks it's all comingfrom one, but really it's just

(25:50):
housed in its appropriate place.
Now, that's specific for thatyeah, you need a.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
You need a really good subject matter expert when,
when, especially when you'regoing through a discovery
component, because one of thekey things like you both
mentioned that everybody wantsthis feature, that they may or
may not need it because theythink someone may want it, and
where subject matter experts iswhere it becomes important is

(26:20):
that they need to be able toarticulate what they need to do.
What do they need to know on aday-to-day basis.
Then we can worry aboutanything else because you know,
if you look at it from thataspect, that's typically 80% of
your day of what you do Like.
If you focus of what do you do,80% of the time it's the bigger

(26:42):
focus when you're implementingBusiness Central, the 20%.
You'll identify that becausesomeone may need something like
a report that they want to seeonce a week, or they do a
process every two weeks, once amonth.
Yes, it's a big deal, but is itreally where you should be
focusing on, or should you befocusing on the ones that you do

(27:02):
day to day?
And a lot of people forget thatwhen they find a new ERP and
it's like, oh, these are coolthings, but you got to look at
your day to day stuff.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
They get so excited about the features and you'll
have that forever, right?
So think about yes, you cangrow into it, don't paint
yourself into a corner, and Ithink that's where it's super
important too.
First of all, you touched on afew things like an SME.
So we do a fixed feeimplementation.
So we're very prescriptive inwhat we want to cover, what we

(27:33):
want to do for the first coupleof phases.
The first phase is the theoryphase, where we're not worried
about how you're going to usethe software.
What I want to do is I want tointroduce you to opportunities,
features in the software,explain what they are, but I
need a subject matter expert,someone who does the job in that
session, because A then I'm notexplaining 101 theories like

(27:55):
what is a sales order?
What is a purchase order?
Why would you use it?
Right, because that becomesconfusing, because then they'll
tell you they need somethingthey don't really need, and not
because they're dumb, but theyjust don't use it every day,
right?
So you need someone who doesthe job that can answer the
questions as to, to your point,what do we need?
What data do we collect in inour current system right now?

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, and that sorry Brad that data that you collect
has to be data that that youneed to be able to decide, to do
a business decision right.
You don't just want to put databecause you just want that data
.
If it's, if it's not going tohelp, you do have a better
decision making.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
These are great points because you hit on the
feature right.
So Business Central has manyfeatures and they'll continue to
have many features.
But just because it has afeature doesn't mean that you
need to use it, and I often seeindividuals get excited and they
want to use as many of thesefeatures as possible, which can

(28:59):
add also to the overwhelmingnature of an ERP implementation.
So, to go back to the questionof how detailed do you get
within an ERP system, so itseems to be a matter of and I
have another question that I'vebeen asking because I'm hung up
on this this year.
I'm hung up on two points thisyear, one of them I'll talk with
you about today.

(29:21):
You ask the subject matterexpert or the person doing the
job what they do to performtheir duty and what do they need
to perform their duty.
But at which point do you maybepull in someone from the
management point of view?
Because the subject matterexpert or where, or would you?
I guess I could say not wheredo you?
Would you pull in?

(29:42):
Say, say, I'm a business ownerand I sell product and Chris
ships it and picks it, packs it,does everything for me, he
knows what he needs to do, but Imay have a different view of,
one, what gets done and two, Imay want to now start doing
something differently, which ismaybe a contributing factor to

(30:02):
me moving to Business Central,because it has a feature that I
need.
So how do you manage that typeof scenario where the subject
matter expert will tell you onething because they know how to
do their job well, they do thejob well with whatever system
they have and they may want todo better things because they
think it would help the business, but then also the business
leadership wants thingsdifferent so that they can

(30:24):
become more efficient as well.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
Right, and I think that becomes a big part of
sometimes.
What can be missing is theconversation that you're having
with not only a subject matterexpert but you should have
probably a business analyst aswell in the meeting, so someone
who's designated to be sittingin on most of the training,
listening to the decisions,thinking about how is this all
going to integrate together andthen obviously typically through

(30:48):
the sales cycle, you know, kindof the management, what am I
looking to get?
So, as an example, we didsomething recently where they
currently were buying everythingas kits but they didn't have
any inventory control becausethey weren't inventorying the
individual components.
So throughout kind of earlydiscussions, we knew that that
was an overall reason to move toBusiness Central and what they

(31:09):
needed.
That process had to change,whether people wanted to or not.
So it can't just be exclusiveto the SME and what do they want
and what are they doing today,because you don't want to bring
their current problems into thenew ERP system.
Right, like that wouldn'tobviously be of good value.
So I think one of the thingsthat sometimes gets missed and I
see this even at likeconferences right Like you'll

(31:30):
have somebody, they ask aquestion and immediately we go
to the feature that's gonna fixthe problem, but it needs to be
bigger, like what challenge areyou experiencing today?
How do you collect thatinformation today?
What are the users doing today?
And it can't just be a I wantadvanced warehousing turned on.

(31:50):
Okay, I'll turn on directedpicks and putaways and I'll
train you on how to use it.
Because, to your point, brad,it's going to then create maybe
more functionality, morepaperwork, more screens people
have to use more functionality,more paperwork, more screens
people have to use.
Like, does that really makesense for the business?
So I think what we need to dois really dig into what they're

(32:10):
doing today, what the problemsthat they're having are, and
then ask them, like really pressthem on why they need things or
how they intend to use it, andget the feedback of other people
, not just one, to value thatyou're doing everything for the
greater good.
Right, like you're not just atrainer who's saying, hey, what
do you need?
I'll turn it on and show youhow to use it.

(32:31):
Like that, to me, is isn'tconsulting, that's training.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
That's a good question that you'd ask Brad,
because the next one I would say, jen, you mentioned business
analysts.
One of the things that you canalso bring in is an executive
sponsor.
That executive sponsor isreally that person that knows
the vision of where they wantthe organization to go.
So you're right, you may have asubject matter expert that
focuses on what they docurrently on a day-to-day basis,

(33:01):
but the executive sponsorshould be able to answer to
Brad's question and say, hey, Iknow you do that, but we're also
going to start bringing EDI, ormaybe we need to.
There's another orders comingin via Shopify, right?
So they would know that betterthan a subject matter expert,
because they, that executivesponsor, should be able to

(33:22):
articulate what that vision of anew ERP is going to be for the
business.
So that's another thing toconsider as well, on top of a
business analyst, because theyhave to validate the process.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
Validate to make sure that the report is good, right,
like you can't just say oh, I'mjust going to have subject
matter experts and call it a day, like I would argue.
There should always be a clearproject stakeholder, even just
for like two people are debating, who breaks the tie right.
Then you have to have yourbusiness analyst, who is
responsible to say I've donemost of the jobs I like

(33:56):
technology should be someonethat people respect.
You know they're sitting in tomake sure that as you bring the
puzzle pieces together, they fit.
But then you have your subjectmatter experts in the areas of
finance, procurement.
You know supply chain, all ofthat to make sure that
individually things are workingas well.
So to your point, chris, Ithink you need all of those and

(34:16):
I think they need to bemandatory.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Are you saying this is a team sport?
It's a team sport, not anindividual sport.
Yeah, football.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Let's do football, because you guys just had
Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's like lacrosse, right?
Yeah, that's a Canadian sportright, lacrosse, I really like
lacrosse.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Boston Bruins.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
That's all I have to say to you Fun fact, my aunt is
married to a gentleman whosenephew is Brad Marchand, so I
think I explained that reallyfunny but technically he's like
my second or third cousin, so myhusband always tells me he'll
believe that when he sees thetickets.
But that is a true story.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
I think you, I think that you should get uh both, uh
your husband and me tickets.
Just to prove this just toprove the fact.
And you can just tell him.
He'll say why is this?
Guy going with me just saybecause he's a new englander, so
yes, he can I don't even needto explain no, just that's uh

(35:19):
marsh and great too I reallylike him, so yeah but to go back
to this, you, you hit onsomething else that I wanted to
ask, which I talked about as apoint.
So, going through animplementation, asking why and
that's something I've alwaysbeen a fan of or in favor of was
asking why until you have thelowest level answer, because

(35:41):
some people get offended whenyou say why all the time.
But to me, when you're goingthrough an implementation, go
back to consulting versustraining, which was an amazing
point.
If I'm just sitting there doingwhat you're telling me to do,
I'm setting it up and I'm justtraining it for you, the value
comes in with the businessconsulting to help them
determine what's the best use ofthe application for them to be

(36:04):
the most efficient and have thebest results of the
implementation.
But ask why?
Because it's either going tovalidate you know, to reiterate
what you said it's either goingto validate what you're saying
is real, because you can explainit, versus the why?
Oh, because we've always doneit that way and nobody knows why
you're doing it.
But this is now becomes arequirement, requirement which

(36:25):
brings me into the point ofsomething that I get hung up on
and you, you talked around it alittle bit with saying, well,
okay, well, we just have to setthis up, and I'll just do this
for you.
I I've been witness to a lot ofimplementations where they make
modifications to it, now withinyour fixed, your fixed fee or

(36:46):
fixed project.
How do you rephrase that?

Speaker 4 (36:48):
again Fixed fee.
That's what we call it Fixedfee implementations.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
How do you incorporate modifications into
that process and when do youidentify those modifications?
That's a loaded questionbecause that's my big pain point
for 2025.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Okay, good.
Well, it's 2024, but I'll getyou early because I'm an
overachiever.
But the fixed fee we only dowhat we would call easy.
So the way that I look at thatis could a techno functional or
a junior developer do thefunction like add fields to
pages, add fields to reports,things like that?
I would consider that just partof fixed fee, so it's easy to

(37:27):
upgrade.
It's probably not going tohinder you at all.
Full customization we do try toavoid.
Especially because we're in thesmall to medium-sized
businesses.
We really try to say just usethis as it is.
If they really can't, thenwe'll look for an ISV that can
already do it because you knowit's warrantied, lots of
customers use it.
If we really do need it.

(37:48):
There is a provision in thebeginning in our quotes that
says we think you'll need 20hours of customization or 30
hours of customization and we'llinclude that.
And then it kind of goes latertowards the scoping.
So you'll get it in your budgetquote so you can ask your boss
for approval of that.

(38:08):
If we get into theimplementation and people really
adopt the out of the box orthey can leverage Power Automate
or Power Pages or somethinglike that, then they save that
money.
So they don't get billed forthat unless they actually need
it.
But we really stress, test themto validate if they do need it.
Because, going back to the whyand the questions, half the time

(38:31):
the biggest challenge I find isthe lingo right, like somebody
will tell me that they want A.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
It's like the old man goes in.
You listen to my conversations.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah, but I mean it's true.
Like, to put it in simple terms,like an old man goes into a
auto repair shop and he asks foran oil change.
Well, eventually you realize hereally needs like a tune-up,
right.
But you just adopt his lingobecause he just always uses it
that way.
So one of the things that Ialways say is like, try and
figure out what it is they'recalling it.

(38:59):
So we had one the other day.
They said said, when we go live, we just need a put away
process.
You know we need a put awayprocess.
As I talked to them about whatthat would mean inside the ERP
system from a transaction and adata standpoint, they're like oh
no, no, that'd be way overkill.
I just need to make sure thatsomeone's put away the material.
Like I need to see what wasbrought in and what was put away

(39:22):
, which was as easy as justsetting up a generic bin with
the actual bins, which is prettysimple warehousing Right.
So one of those things that Ioften go to is just making sure,
like again for the why is justthat it actually makes sense for
them.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
That's a good point.
It is terminology.
That's a good point, it isterminology is a big hindrance.
And yeah, I I can tell you howmany, how many mistakes I've
seen in life, not just the epiimplementations because of a
misunderstanding of of language.
I guess you could say inessence what it is.
So we started going down theroad of the modifications and

(40:01):
then determining themodifications, because it sounds
like the way that you're goingthrough the implementation is
start using the system, thenfigure out what you need.
And the reason why I say thisbecause that's the other thing
I'm hung up on is I've witnessedmany implementations that get
complicated or hung up.

(40:22):
It's because they'll talk tosomebody.
They'll say I need a put awayprocess.
That person that they'retalking with will say, okay, you
need a put away process.
Okay, well, based on what yousaid, we need 3 000 hours of
modifications.
We're going to create all theseextensions right and you need
handheld devices and everythingnobody's touched the software
yet so here they are working onmodifications based on someone

(40:45):
who's helping them with animplementation, not doubting
them and their ability toimplement by any means, but just
maybe through miscommunicationor misunderstanding.
They now spent a lot of timeand money on a modification to
do a process when no one's eventouched the system to see if the
system does exactly what theyneed.

Speaker 4 (41:04):
So for us, we'll queue up your requests, your
modifications, Like I have asystem.
It's online.
You can log into it at anypoint to see all the things
you've asked for throughout theimplementation.
But I'm not going to actuallyrelease any of those until about
the fifth phase of the project,because I need you to go
through sort of the this is whatthe system can do.
Here's your opportunities.

(41:26):
I need you to go through sortof an advanced training where
you're hands-on and you'reprobably bringing more people in
at that point.
Right, the people that are thedoozers who need to click the
buttons and move things throughnow that some decisions have
been made, they need to pilot,maybe even for a little bit, to
start seeing how it's flushingthrough, how it's executing, and

(41:47):
then later down the line, ifyou tell me you still need a
modification, I'm more inclinedto say okay, you've used the
system enough that you've provenit to me that you really do
need this for some businessvalue.
It's adding a competitive edgefor you.
It's adding a business valuefor you, adding a competitive
edge for you.
It's adding a business valuefor you.
And we had one client probablyseven or eight years ago now I

(42:10):
was probably newer, like inworking in that industry or
something, and we really pushedback on customizations and said
I don't think you need it.
I don't think you need it, butmaybe I wasn't as firm as I
needed to be and what happenedwas they ended up.
They were steadfast that theyneeded it, so we let them do it.
They're actually now atestimonial customer for saying
just listen to Saber when theysay you don't need it, use the

(42:33):
system for a little bit.
And then have people becauseyou think something's clicky or
cumbersome, because you're slow.
Well, it's all new to you.
It was probably clicky andcumbersome and you were probably
slow when you started using youknow GP 20 years ago or visual
or whatever ear pieces sage,whatever you had.
So you just got to give it alittle bit of time where you're

(42:53):
living and breathing it for alittle bit to prove to yourself
and everybody else that youactually need that customization
.
Cause it.
That adds complexity, for sure.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
It so does and that's my pitch for 2025 is how can we
ensure or validate that themodifications that are being
made, which add complexity andsometimes stall implementations
because that modificationintroduces new challenges?
That modification isn'ttranslated properly from the

(43:23):
language of what they wantedwithout someone looking at it
and I see so many customers getstuck and there's battles and
and issues because somebodywasn't to modify or said they
needed a modification beforethey even clicked a new customer
right, and they'll use it as anexcuse down the road too for

(43:44):
not testing.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Well, and you see that with like so again, I'll go
back to the advancedwarehousing right.
Like so, people turn it onbecause somebody used the
terminology, somebody set it up.
Now I'm live.
I got a bunch of transactionsor open records.
Well, now I'm looking to modifyand automate all of the
processes that that setup turnedon.
But had I properly piloted,properly done my UAT properly,

(44:07):
got the right people involved,like all of those things, I
probably would have identifiedthat Business Central in its
vanilla form was just set up andconfigured incorrectly and I
could have saved all this timeand money and headache.
And now my upgrades areannoying.
So, or they then needed to domodifications to turn off
something midway.

(44:27):
And what complexity does thatadd?
Because now I've got a documentthat was received with a
warehouse receipt.
Now I want to turn it up, likeall those things are.
Just because people aren'thaving those conversations about
do you really need separatewarehouse documents?
Because if Brad does thereceiving and Brad does the
putting away and Brad does thewhatever, you probably don't

(44:55):
need it all turned on.
But it's just, it'sunderstanding what is the
purpose of that feature, how isit intended to be used and how
does it work with everythingelse, and that's kind of where
that detail and abstract comesin, right?
Do you need all those extrawarehouse documents?
If the answer is no, then lookfor other opportunities to still
get a put away process.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Yeah, so going back, you're back to the fixed fee
model.
We're talking about a lot ofthe processes of basically
preparation right to have asuccessful implementation, do as
much preparation as you can.
That preparation can bediscovery, testing, training
using the system, out ofcuriosity, and if any of these
you can't answer, that's fine.

(45:37):
Um, is the discovery processpart of the fixed fee
implementation?
Yes, it is Okay, and what isinvolved in that discovery
process and how long shouldsomeone expect to take through
the discovery process?

Speaker 4 (45:56):
So I would almost argue that the discovery happens
in, like the kickoff.
There's a designated discoverycall, which is for each of the
individual areas, but it alsogoes into the theory as well,
right, because there's certainthings that I would call like
oxygen, where you'll forget totell me because it's just so
obvious in every day to you thatit'll come out.
As I start to show you thefeatures inside of Business

(46:17):
Central, you'll be like oh yeah,and, by the way, we also do
this.
But I would say it's easierwith us because we only do
manufacturing.
So you know, for 20 years allI've ever done is manufacturing.
So it's a lot easier, even whenyou're using the wrong
terminology or explaining aprocess, for me to understand oh
, you would probably have thesechallenges, or oh, this is what

(46:40):
you mean when you say that.
But I would definitely say thatyou're looking at like two to
three weeks probably, at leastan hour and a half, maybe more,
per functional area of sessionswhere you're asking them show me
process documents you may havecreated, walk me through
entering in an order.
I always say pretend, like youwon the lottery and you're going
to Fiji and you know you're nottaking me.

(47:02):
So I'm mad at that, but I'myour replacement, so you have to
show me your function.
Show me and walk me through itin the screens.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
If somebody wins the lottery and is going to Fiji, I
don't think they're going tospend much time with you.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Well, they could take me, I'm fun, take me, I'm fun,
I'm very fun, you know we're notgoing to do BC.
I mean I can let that go forFiji, for the beach.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
We're going to do beach time.
Yeah, yeah, but they stillwouldn't teach you.
And why would they take you?

Speaker 4 (47:32):
Why not?
You can't even get Bruinstickets, because they're good
people why not.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Why can't you take me ?
Just take me.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
But I do say to them like, train me as if you're
leaving, like I have to do yourjob now.
So try to leave no stoneunturned.
Show me your screen, show meyour reports.
What information are youresponsible to send out?
What information are youresponsible to bring in as part
of the discovery?
I asked them as well.
So we don't do their formsmodifications because they can
be simple or they could be supercomplex.

(48:02):
So we train them on how to dothat.
We'll help them to do it.
But that's another thing whereI'll ask for their existing
documents, not for the purposesof recreating those reports, but
for the purposes of making surethat I'm collecting the data
inside of the ERP through thetraining, to make sure that data
has a field so it can beprinted on a form, on a Power BI

(48:23):
report, on whichever.
So again, if I don't look atthose, I could be
over-abstracting their processand not getting them to collect
the data.
And then later, when they'regoing to run the report, they're
like well, how come I can't getthe heat number?
Well, where are we collectingthat?
I didn't know that was part ofyour process.
So it's not only talking tothem, but it's looking at their

(48:44):
forms, it's looking at theirreports, it's talking to other
people around them, just to kindof get a sense.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
I like that approach.
In essence, you're doing thejob with them instead of
listening to what they're havingto say.
I like that also.
I picked up on the oxygen.
That's just there and you takeit for granted.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
And you do.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And, and sometimes people leave out details until
they go live and they say oh,where do I find that heat number
?
And you'll say you've nevertold me about the heat number.
Oh yes, I did, right Back onJanuary 2, when we were talking
about Thanksgiving.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
Well, it's a lot of information both ways, right
when they're teaching me abouttheir processes.
It's a lot of information.
So that's where I try anddocument in the beginning like,
okay, which features do I knowfor sure I need to show them, or
what extra piece of informationmight seem like something that
I need to collect in a differentspace that isn't there, which
might be just like a new feel toa page or something trivial, or

(49:42):
it might be a fullcustomization and truly
something more.
But the thing is that you wantto just make sure that you're
kind of getting through theoxygen, and that's why I always
say to people I hate the wordtraining, I'm never going to
train you.
This is a series of workshopswhere we're working on an agile
approach, where I'm going to seta little bit up for you based
on what I know of your industry,what I learned in the discovery

(50:04):
, but then you're going to seethings, you're going to use the
system, you're going to playwith it a bit, and then you're
going to give me a feedback loopon oh, you missed this, or this
is too cumbersome, or thiswon't work for me, or whichever.
So it's not.
I set it up, I train you andyou go live.
It's collaborative, and thenwe're kind of building on it and
that's where I'll usually startsmaller and then I start with

(50:27):
less and I get them to give methat feedback loop on where I
have to add more.
But I don't start with everysingle thing turned on, train
them on the software and thenpray I can turn it off later.
I think that's crazy town.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
That's a dangerous thing to do is turn on
everything.
It is.
And it's also almost like goingthrough and say here's the
sales and receivables set up andsomeone's like okay, well, what
does this option do?
What does this option do?
What does this option do?
What does this option do?
Oh, I need that.
Oh, I don't need that.
Oh well, we could use that nowand they're totally guessing at

(51:05):
it.
Right, because, they don't usethe software every day.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
So they're making an assumption on what it is they
think they're hearing, or, toyour point, and that's where,
like, it can go wild, wherethey're like, oh, but that would
be great, we don't do thattoday, but that would be great.
And it's like, oh, geez.
So what you want to do is justsort of start with your baseline
.
What are you doing today?
Or what problem are you facingtoday that you're truly facing,

(51:28):
like I said in the clientscenario where they couldn't
properly manage their inventory,and then you're going to build
on it.
So first you're going to startwith your low hanging fruit,
like what are things that youcan clear?
Like a lot of the times, thisis a crazy one.
They'll say is there a place inBC for me to reference the
vendor's part number and my partnumber?
So it's like, of course you'regoing to show them that and

(51:50):
you're going to use that feature, right, but the more advanced
stuff, the stuff that's harderto turn off.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
That's where you really want to qualify it.
So you mean like directed picksand putaways and advanced way
of housing, you can't just turnoff.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
No, unfortunately you can't, and you know I'll put my
word into the people.
But it's.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
It's unfortunately not that easy.
The people we'll put my wordinto the people.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
The people yes.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
I like the approach to that and that's where I had
mentioned that I'm strugglingthis year.
Like I said, I have two points.
I mentioned it in an episode afew episodes ago, at the time of
this, recording my other painfor 2025.
But this is the other one isget into the system and use it

(52:40):
before you decide you need amodification or a change in the
process.
And then the other one, use itbefore you say you need to
change the process because salesorder entry will be difficult
at first, because it's new.
So overcome the fear of thenewness and then soon you'll be
flying through the sales order.

(53:01):
So what you think may be acumbersome process, go through a
few motions instead of doing itthe first time, when it's new
to you and it may be confusing.
I like that approach of thecollaborative use it.
I almost feel like sayingsimply put, simply put, just
with the way I speak, just sitdown, start using it.
Where it fails, we'll figure itout as we go.

(53:22):
Not going live, but go throughthe workshop of okay, set up a
customer using the base feedbackloop.
Do as much as you can.
You know.
If a question comes up, wheredo I put the payment terms?
Yeah, show them where thepayment terms goes.
If there's something thatdoesn't have a spot for it, mark
it and then determine.
You know, put that in a placewhere you need a solution.

Speaker 4 (53:41):
I would like to see implementations go that way,
because then that's sort of mymodel and maybe I'm not a lot
like you, but I am very like Ialways.
I joke I'm bossy, right, butthere's a change management with
people are you saying I'm bossy?
well, you kind of came across asbossy.
So I'm going to, I'm going togo with that and I'm going to

(54:01):
say you said it, not me.
But, um, so, as we go, you'rekind of building a trust with
people.
And that's where I think, likeyou want to build that
relationship and that trust withyour clients, because you want
them to just even, like, takeyour word for it.
So I will be that blunt in animplementation.
Like I will say look, I've setit up this way.

(54:21):
I'm 90% sure, based on whatyou've told me, based on your
industry, based on what I know,that this is correct.
It will.
There'll be areas to tweak it,but just do it this way, Like I
don't show them the two or threeother ways and I'll say to them
look, it's an ERP system.
It can be configured slightlydifferently.
So if you use it and you tellme it won't work, I say don't

(54:41):
throw up your hands and you know, oh, this won't work, tell me
why, like it's too many clicks,I got an error, I don't get the
information I need.
If you tell me the why, I canalways work with that.
But just start with this, useit and then give me some
feedback and it sort of takesaway that white page syndrome

(55:01):
where they're like I don't knowwhat to tell you, I don't know
how to test it, I don't know ifI should go option A or option B
, like sometimes I feel like wegive too many options, like I
think we have to give themoptions.
Of course, but it's just likesometimes there's four different
ways to do it and there's prosand cons of both.
Imagine if it's a new system.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
There's four different ways to do it and
there's pros and cons of both.
Imagine if it's a new system.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Analysis paralysis, yeah, and someone's throwing 17
things at you.
You're like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
They all sound good.
That's how I am with trying tofind something to watch on
Netflix.
There's so many movies and somany documentaries that I'll sit
there and after 30 minutes go,ah, I can't find anything when
there are shows that I wouldlike, and it is a thing I think
it was the Baskin-Robbinsexperiment or something, where
they did the same thing with icecream, where they found a store

(55:44):
that had three flavors was farmore profitable than the store
that had the 28 flavors, becausesomeone went in and they had
three choices, right, the otherstore, they had 28 choices, and
that's what happens.
It's like, ah, it's indecision.
You end up getting Chris'spoint analysis, paralysis you
get paralyzed.
It's like I don't want to makethe wrong decision and I have
many of them to make here, soI'm not going to make any.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
And that's the challenge.
I think that you then becomethe clients making assumptions.
They're over-architecting theirown solution.
They're doing their best, right, based on what they know, but
they're afraid that they'regoing to paint themselves into a
corner or not get the data thatmaybe they'll need later.
So then that's when I would saythey over detail their
processes, they ask for way toomuch data collection because

(56:29):
they're so afraid to not use afeature.
It's almost like they feel likeit's back in the old days when
you bought them in modules.
It's like, oh no, if I don'tuse it, maybe it'll go away or
something like that.
I'm not sure, but then they likethey're just, they're just
making too many assumptions.
So I think again, as aconsultant, our job is to look
at what they need, look at theirindustry, look at where they

(56:51):
need to grow, look atopportunities for them.
Give them a little bit and thencollaboratively workshop it out
and pilot it.
And that's why I always say,guys, if I'm wrong, that's why I
don't set it up train you andthen you go live.
That's the exact reason why,and then hopefully you get more
ownership through that and thenowning the process and being

(57:11):
excited and feeling like theyhad a say in it.
You know that's huge too Likeall the systems.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
I do love what you had mentioned about feedback
loop and you mentioned itseveral times, and and and one
of the things that you know,when I used to implement nav, it
always felt like it was a, evenfrom when I was in an end user
side.
It always felt like it's awaterfall and it's like they set
it up and I have to deal withit.
Right, there's never anopportunity to have that

(57:41):
conversation.
That's what you had mentioned.
We have to make that normal inERP implementation, that you
have to create and encouragefeedback loop, because that's
the only way for you tounderstand okay, was this set up
correctly?
For you to understand, okay,was this set up correctly?
It's good to find out now,ahead of time than later.
In UAT and it says hey, I setit up this way based on my

(58:04):
understanding, but there was nofeedback loop.
Then when you're testing as anend user, you can say that
doesn't work and you getdiscouraged because you spend
all this time and you're gettingclose to go live.
You do a new UAT and it's likethis is not what I expected.
Because you remove thatfeedback loop, you remove that
opportunity for an end user tobe able to ask questions, or

(58:27):
vice versa, from a consultantstandpoint, you also have to ask
the right questions to makesure, like did I understand
exactly why they want to do thisor how they want to do this?
So that's important.
That we cannot forget is createthat feedback loop and it has
to be encouraged by both parties.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
It's so many great points, I just keep jumping in.
I'm just going to repeateverything you said, because
this is going to be like the newmodel way, even though wait, I
have to try not to be so bossy.
How do I not be, how do I notsound bossy?
You just listen sometimes I, Ido listen.

(59:07):
I know you had mentioned at onepoint over architecting.
The solution goes back to mymodification before anybody
touches a kick because followinto that loop, in that process.
We need an extension to enhancethe process.
Oh, but now we need another onebecause we've over complicated
a process which down the streamor process, as you say.

(59:30):
I love the way that you'resaying that I picked up on that
project in process.
See, I have the oz from thenortheast and everyone always
says I say car, I parked my car.
I love that.
I'm trying to lose it.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
I'm training myself.
I love it.
No, I love that the um.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
But that's what ends up happening with over
architecting is you end uprunning these problems and you
need to.
It's almost like the the.
It's almost like the medical orthe pharmaceutical industry
here in the United States.
You know you take a pill andthen you have to take another
pill to combat the side effectof the pill.
Then you have to take anotherpill to combat the side effect
of that pill, which is you know.
So, in essence, now, instead ofhaving one pill or one, you
know one small thing like go outand walk down the street every

(01:00:12):
day for an hour.
You're taking all of thesepills and having the challenges.
So I like that control andthat's where I see Business
Central now is it's moreimportant when you're doing the
consulting, is you're morebusiness consulting and guiding
them versus training them how touse Business Central.
It's how do you get the bestfor it and with your feedback

(01:00:32):
loop, as Chris was elaboratingon, they get a sense of
ownership with it, because howmany times I would be the first
one sitting there entering theorders?
I can't get my orders done,can't get my job done and I
would say this is what jen toldme to do yeah I didn't design
the system this isn't me yeah,nobody asked me.
I would have said, no, we can'tdo it this way.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
So right, yeah, I think, and that's the thing too.
So, chris, to your point withthe feedback loop, and I think
to kind of bring it back to like, it would be way too detailed,
if you will, to have everybodyin every department in from the
very beginning, all the way tothe end, cause what's going to
happen is they're going to spendmost of the time debating what
features should be used, if theyreally do it this way or that

(01:01:17):
way, like all of the things.
But then you can't have say,like just your stakeholders or
all the upper management whonever use the system and on all
the meetings in the beginning,because that's too abstract,
they don't even know theprocesses of today and how the
data gets into the system.
So I think the feedback loop isimportant, but I also think
that bringing in the rightpeople at the right times are so

(01:01:38):
important.
Because in the beginning,you're right, you need the
feedback of the stakeholders whydid you buy the ERP?
Why did we go with the?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
But then, as you go, they needto start bringing in more and
more of those end-level users.
So in the beginning you need thedecision makers Like what are
the outcomes of our department.
What are the key things that weneed to do?

(01:02:00):
Kind of high level, help me setup the system.
Well then, as you go into thenext phase, it's like bringing
your right hand man.
You're going to peer review thedecisions I've made.
You're going to fine tune itwhere it's wrong, because, again
, we're not using this waterfallapproach where we're going to
wait till it's perfectly set upand then give it to you.
We're going to agile, work itthrough and then, near the end,
you're bringing in the peoplethat you're literally just

(01:02:22):
training.
Right, like I'm just going toshow you how to use the system,
because you just do the shippingevery day or the receiving, and
it's really repetitive.
So I think that's the big thing.
Is the feedback loop soimportant?
But the right people at theright time is also where that
balance comes in.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Absolutely.
One of the things that I triedto put this in perspective is
that there was a years ago,before I even got into the
consulting.
You know, one of my first jobsis I worked in a facility and it
was worked in a kitchen and oneof the things they did was this

(01:03:05):
whole elaborate, you know,rebuilding their floor because
they need a new floor and on topof that they, they can push the
cart easily and all that pushthe cart easily and all that.
But they failed to find out, orthey failed to ask the janitor,
who has to maintain it, of thetools that he would have needed

(01:03:25):
to maintain it and to keep itclean, and so it's very similar
to that.
In the way I look at it, it'sthat you have to have the right
people involved.
That's going to cause an impactof their day to day, and you're
right, you have to have theright people involved.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
um, at certain points of the, the project, right it's
all great and fascinatinginformation and I'm learning so
much.
Is that better?

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Very good listening that's my good listening and, uh
, I am an active listener and Ipause and I wait and I'm not
bossy and I like a little bossyis good.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
I think you know confident I think, yeah,
confident is good, right, like,and that's part of where, like I
was trying to lead to with,like us, because we do
manufacturing all day, every dayit's easy to kind of be
confident because I probablyknow the issues that they're
having.
I probably know what's workedwell and not worked well over
the past like you know, 16 yearsof consulting, kind of thing.

(01:04:33):
So it's one of those thingswhere I think confidence is the
right word and you want yourconsultants to A have the
confidence to challenge you alittle bit, because you can have
a difficult customer who's likeno, I need that, I need the
most advanced warehousing setup,I need it Now.
Here's all the reasons why.
And sometimes they really don't.
So you need someone that'sreally confident in what they're

(01:04:54):
telling them to kind of sellthem on the idea and, to your
point, get them to actually useit, like, just start using it.
You can yell at me, curse at me, tell me I'm wrong in two weeks
, but you have to tell me thatyou've used it and how much and
show me what you did.
And then, if you want to curseme out at the end of it, go
ahead Right, but you've got todo it or just do it this way.
I think confidence is is good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Good, good, I won't be bossy.
Confidence I'll be confident.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Confidence is needed to say no too right, because
that's an important thing whenyou're a consultant.
Like no, no, no, don't do itthat way Right.
That requires confidence.
Yeah, and here's all thereasons why Because some
consultants are like, yeah,let's do it your way.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
It goes back to Jen's point.
You know, you're not justtraining and doing what they say
, You're consulting with them,right?
Whereas if it's, if you say yes, yes, yes and you don't say no,
then you're not guiding themthrough their journey of an ERP
implementation.
See, to me, everything's ajourney.

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
See everything's a journey?
Yes, it is Just like theBachelor, but the.
What I would say is-.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
What is the Bachelor?

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
They always say that you know, thank you for coming
on this journey with me.
Don't you watch the bachelor,the bachelorette.
You're a lost cause.
I had confidence what I want towatch the bachelor yes, to-do
list, although you have enoughthat you can't decide what to
watch, just yes I don't havetelevision.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
I have like netflix and such like that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:24):
I don't have cable television I'm the same, just
like netflix prime.
I don't, so it's bachelor.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
I, I don't even I.
I heard about the bachelor.
I've never watched it, but I'mnot under living under a rock
where I know about it.
But that's just not my type oftelevision show.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
Fair enough.
Fair enough, but they also goon journeys.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Yes, Well, it is.
It's a journey and that's whatyou try it on your next ERP
implementation Say.
Now we're going to go on thejourney of implementing Business
Central.
We're going to start off, right?
Yes, yes.
I've been on this journey kickI say it more from development.
I've been talking with someothers about a development
journey and learning BusinessCentral, al development.

(01:07:07):
But I think we can transitionthat over to now the ERP journey
.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
It is, it's so true right, and that's where you have
to go in.
You have to think of it like ajourney.
This is something where I'mgoing to learn a little bit
about it.
I'm going to play with it, I'mgoing to decide if it's got
something that I need that Idon't have, and then I'm going
to look for ISVs that are outthere and then, to your point,

(01:07:33):
it's not meant to be, I think,100% fit for every company, for
every vertical.
They design it in such a waythat you've got the ISVs and,
potentially, the ability tocustomize, should it truly be
required and needed.
But I do think that it justbecomes a matter of making sure
that you're actually validatingthat first.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
I like that.
I like that Well, ms Jenen.
Thank you very much, miss jen.
Mrs jen, thank you very much.
What do you go by?

Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
jen.
Yeah, mrs jen, mrs, jen, mrsjen he's like a teacher.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
He's like a teacher.
Well, I have to not be bossy,so I'm trying trying to come
down to be passive.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
You did fine.
Yeah, you did fine.
You did well there it wasconfident.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Well, we have you reserved for another
conversation in the future.
Yes, I don't know if youremember I do, I do.
I will not be as bossy then Iwill change my disposition.

Speaker 4 (01:08:32):
You'll have some Christmas cheer infused into you
.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:08:39):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Is cheer infused into you?
Um, no, no, you're the.
Grinch, I was confident.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
I was confident.
You are To say no, that's right, you needed that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
See, I said no, that was what I said.
I would definitely have somenew year cheer, uh for our next
conversation and maybe we canhave some new year's resolutions
that we'll all talk about.
Not that I believe in NewYear's resolutions, because I
think you should make changesthroughout the year.
You don't need a specificholiday for it, but I guess some
people need that for it.
See, it's just like when you goto the gym, you know January.

(01:09:10):
All the way from Januarythrough mid-February it's packed
.

Speaker 4 (01:09:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Then after about Valentine's Day, it goes back to
dead.

Speaker 4 (01:09:19):
Dead yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
March.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
Everyone's just regretting it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yes, yes, yes, but thank you very much for taking
the time to speak with us thisafternoon.
It was a lot of fun.
I did learn quite a bit aboutthe Sabre about yourself and
have some great ideas aboutimplementations, and I'm happy
to hear the way that you'reimplementing it because I think
it is a recipe for successRecipe get it Manufacturing,
even though you don't do food.

Speaker 4 (01:09:44):
I like that Well, it brings in the food element of
Thanksgiving, which is nice, soI appreciate it and thank you
for having me.
It's been really interestingand I had a lot of fun.
It's our pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
It's always a it's always a pleasure to speak with
you.
If anyone would like to get incontact with you to learn more
about the implementationofferings that you have
manufacturers, whetherdomestically here in the United
States, in Canada or either inEurope, how is the best way to
get in contact with you?

Speaker 4 (01:10:15):
So just on the web is probably the best way.
So saverlimitedcom, and thenthere's a bookings link on there
to reach out and do more there,or you can even just use the
good old fashion phone like theold days.
So yeah, we have one of thosestill 519-585-7524.
But the website is the best wayand you can book a meeting from

(01:10:37):
there as well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Excellent, excellent Phone.
I know it's like a fact, do you?

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
dial.
Do you dial yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I remember the rotary phones and I also remember I
know you're only 21 and youdon't remember but I remember
having to get the 25 footextension cord so that you can
plug it into the phone and thenyou can take the phone and go
hide in the room with it.
And then, and then also someoneelse walking around.
Yes, and then also do youremember call waiting yes, and

(01:11:09):
then you could click over.
So if someone was on the phoneit was busy, all these things
that people don't remember.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
No, I would like to see how many households still
have a phone line, so my parentsdo, and my mom never got call
waiting because she said it isthe rudest thing in the world
she's like if I'm talking to you, she said I can't remember how
many times I'm talking to auntyou know whoever no one named
names in case they listen.
And she's like she would just goto her call waiting and then

(01:11:34):
come back and be like, well,suzy's on the phone, I gotta let
you go.
And she's like, but you, you'retalking to me.
So we never had call waiting.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
But yeah, my parents do have a landline still I have
a landline still I do not, butI'm out living the woods yeah I
it's.

Speaker 2 (01:11:52):
It's funny like you bring back all these memories
about implementations being allremote.
I remember before the internetwhere you had dial up for it to
connect to systems, but you knowthat's for another day.
I mean, that's what happens asyou get older, you start
reminiscing of like, oh when Iwas a kid.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
I've only heard about it from my ancestors when you
made it your ancestors with thatnote.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Thank you very much.
It was a pleasure speaking withyou.
I look forward to talking withyou after the new year for
another conversation.
We'll have a lot of fun andtalk with you soon.
Ciao, ciao.

Speaker 4 (01:12:25):
See you guys.
Thank you, bye, bye.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Thank you, chris, for your time for another episode
of In the Dynamics Corner Chair,and thank you to our guests for
participating.

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
Thank you, brad, for your time.
It is a wonderful episode ofDynamics Corner Chair.
I would also like to thank ourguests for joining us.
Thank you for all of ourlisteners tuning in as well.
You can find Brad atdeveloperlifecom, that is
D-V-L-P-R-L-I-F-E dot com, andyou can interact with them via

(01:12:58):
Twitter, dprlife.
You can also find me atmatalinoio, m-a-t-a-l-i-n-o dot
i-o, and my Twitter handle ismatalino16.
And see, you can see thoselinks down below in their show
notes.
Again, thank you everyone.

(01:13:19):
No-transcript.