September 17, 2025 • 76 mins
Work with your shadows from a shamanistic point of view with Granddaughter Crow's four-step system.Organized by the four cardinal directions and the animal guides associated with each one―raven, snake, owl, and wolf―this book helps you find the beauty within your shadow without fear or shame. Each of the four main chapters features a variety of ways to explore each direction and animal through guided meditation and trance work.Discover stories, exercises, and journal prompts that enhance your journey. Delve into the shadow medicine wheel; study how the time of day, season, and landscape impact your experiences; and use tools that become extensions of yourself. Granddaughter Crow provides everything you need to approach, recognize, understand, and accept your shadow.
Granddaughter Crow (Dr. Joy Gray) is an author, medicine woman, public speaker, teacher, and intuitive reader. Descended from a long line of spiritual leaders, she is an empath, medium, and member of the Navajo Nation. She was voted Woman of the Year in 2015 by the National Association of Professional Women (NAPW). Visit her at GranddaughterCrow.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/earth-ancients--2790919/support.
Granddaughter Crow (Dr. Joy Gray) is an author, medicine woman, public speaker, teacher, and intuitive reader. Descended from a long line of spiritual leaders, she is an empath, medium, and member of the Navajo Nation. She was voted Woman of the Year in 2015 by the National Association of Professional Women (NAPW). Visit her at GranddaughterCrow.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/earth-ancients--2790919/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Destiny is tools for transformation, meaning that we are offering
you ways to look at your shadow, your trauma, the
parts that aren't working necessarily both mental, physical, and spiritual,
so that you can tune up that you can be
the best that you can be and succeed and be successful. Hey,
(00:43):
this is Cliff, your host of Destiny, and today talking
about a indigenous way to look at the shadow. Another
word for trauma. And we've talked about ancestral trauma. We've
talked about personal trauma, and this is also considered the shadow.
The view we are taking today is shamanistic trauma relief,
(01:09):
and that means identifying what's bothering you, and that can
be depression. I'm depressed about my job, I'm depressed about
my relationship. I'm just depressed generally. Working on that. That's
a form of trauma. Another big one is and this
doesn't come up very often, but ancestral trauma the trauma
(01:32):
of your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and how
it can bleed into your present reality and you don't
even know about it. And this is something that we
don't discuss enough about because if it's in your DNA,
how are you gonna know unless you're feeling sensitive about
how people react to you. Maybe it's the color of
(01:54):
your skin, maybe it's your background, maybe it's things that
are completely out of your control. And so when people
are looking down at you and reacting in a certain
manner makes you feel uncomfortable, that is a form of trauma.
And we don't talk enough about ancestral trauma. We have,
(02:17):
We've had a couple of different people on the program
discussing what that means, how that feels, and how to
address it. But today we're going to look at it
as a shadow. And when it's a shadow, it's hanging
over us without us really knowing about it and addressing it.
So we'll talk about ancestral trauma in a way that
(02:41):
you can look, you can address it, and get a
sense of why you feel the way you do. The
bottom line is trauma comes in all shapes and sizes.
The most important part of trauma is to identify it,
to find it, to understand how it affect your life. Now,
(03:03):
I didn't realize that this ancestral trauma can pass through generations,
but it makes sense if as an example, my grandparents.
My grandfather came to America as an immigrant in the
turn of the century, like nineteen ten. I believe I
(03:24):
might be nineteen twelve, and he was a German and
he came to America. I didn't speak any English, and
he talked about having hard times with the local community.
He fled Europe because there was a world war, a
First World War, and so although he was German, he
(03:44):
was not tolerated outside of his own country. And when
he came to California to be to be with his
father who was in Los Angeles, he was treated poorly
and it took him a number of years to adjust
to that. And he talked about it.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And you know, although I didn't experience the same types
of perhaps it was racism. This is in my DNA,
it's in my genes, and so I'm you know, I
need to address that, so because maybe it's making me
feel less than or not quite good enough, or not
(04:27):
part of the country. And I do love the United States,
I really really do, but you know, I need to
look at this. So ancestral trauma is really a focal
point in what we're talking about today, and it's really
fun to consider not the traditional psychology psychiatry perspective on trauma,
(04:53):
but to look at it from a natural earth based system,
different types of helpers. We're going to talk about the totems,
the animal totems, and how they can reflect and be
used in such a way to heal trauma, to understand
(05:13):
the shadows, and through meditative processes and other forms of
self help, you can relieve. Well, you can first identify
the shadow and begin to relieve it, so it's not
such an influence. And there's so much that we don't
(05:33):
know about. There's so many traumas that we have that
we're unaware of because we just picked them up and
they're just hanging there. It's like a storefront. I feel depressed,
I have a trauma. I'm regularly depressed. I don't feel
great enough, I have low self esteem. I have this
ancestral problem going on where I don't feel that I'm
(05:55):
part of the community, so forth and so on. So
these are all really important considerations that we will address today.
So today's program is Shamanism and your Shadow using animal
guides to explore and heal your inner self. And my
guest is Joy Gray or granddaughter Crow the Earth Ancients.
(06:22):
Sacred Pyramid Toure December one to the twelfth of twenty
twenty five.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
What happens when we walk or we are doing a
ritual or praying over the pyramid is that we literally
resonate with the cavity of what it's called the human resonance.
So in our planet we have resonance that it's called
human resonance. It's like a heartbeat of the planet. So
(06:50):
when this heartbeat of our planet resonates with these type
of structures like these Mayan pyramids, they amplify the human
resonates because they're all made with fractal materials like pezo
electric stones and very particular types of stones. Imagine that
it's like when you have a tune fork and then
(07:11):
you have another tune fork, and they will resonate with
the same frequency. So when we're on top of a pyramid,
it will make our whole body, our DNA, our electromagnetic
field resonate like bes cavity.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That's our turo Di Leon who is one of our
hosts for the upcoming tour. He is a architect from
Mexico who has incorporated sacred geometry and many of the
buildings he has designed. Who understands the intricacies of pyramids
and maya science jourious for this special tour December first
(07:48):
to the twelfth of this year. For more information and
all the details, go to earthacients dot com Forward slash Tours,
Come out and join us. We speak about shamanism quite
(08:37):
a bit here on Destiny, and I don't think we
have talked about it from a therapeutic point of view.
And today we're going to look at it in the
face of a new book called Shamanism and Your Shadow.
My guest is Joy Gray, otherwise known as Granddaughter Crow,
and I have had a chance to look at this
book and it's excellent. And today we're going to look
(08:58):
at how to process in a shamanistic and an indigenous manner.
And this is really quite quite fun to think about
because this is in many ways more naturalistic, because we're
looking at processes that have probably been used for hundreds
of not thousands of years, and it feels much more
(09:22):
natural to me as I read through this. So Joy,
welcome to Destiny. Great to have you other program.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for that
lovely introduction. Cliff. I really enjoy your program and your curiosity.
With the program, you know, you explore the unexplored, and
you know, weave in hard science with lived experience. And yeah,
(09:49):
I'm a fan.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Talk about being raised noveljo and the spirit and the
dark side of the shadow and how you came up
understanding what this is.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I love that. So it's very interesting because my father
is full blood Navajo. To give your listeners a little
texture around that, he was born in nineteen thirty two,
and in history that would put him right at that
ripe time to be taken from his hogan and put
(10:32):
into the boarding school and taught the English speaking way
and all of that, and so you know, he actually
married a Dutch woman. And I am the product of
two worlds, right, Yeah. The only way that I can
describe myself is that I come from two worlds. And
sometimes when I stand in one solo, I'm like, yeah,
(10:55):
but what about the other. And when I stand in
the other, I'm like, what about the other? In a
very interesting way, it causes me to be more of
a bridge or an interpreter between like the spiritual Navajo
noess and the academic, you know, Dutch side that I hold,
which I love school. And so when talking about my
(11:18):
own lived experience with the Navajo, being of Navajo blood,
there is a very it's it was an oral culture
probably up until about two hundred years ago. So when
we're looking at the Navajo culture, what we're looking at
is pass down indigenous wisdom, as though we would in
(11:43):
any culture if it were long enough back. So what
I'm saying is even my Dutch culture, maybe way back
when also lived in tribe, also had an oral culture
until it was written down. It's just that Navajo is
the freshest and from that personerspective, it really gives this
idea around and I'm trying to figure out how to
(12:07):
say it. It kind of is this lived experience. It
is the dynamic, It is the being in the natural world.
It is being in tribe versus my academic side, which research,
researches and explains to my mind what that's all about.
(12:28):
So I think one of the biggest things that I
want to throw down before I kind of get into
my own story, is this idea that of the education
and understanding things from the mental realm versus the lived
experience and understanding things from a physical lived experience. A
(12:53):
visceral experience, and emotional experience and so forth, and spiritual experience.
And so when I look at what did it with
being asked, what is it like looking at the world
through Navajo lens as well as the shadow and how
did that come up? I actually was raised from two worlds.
(13:14):
So there's a part of me that always understood that
everything is organic. The natural world is organic, our tribe
and community is organic. And then all of a sudden
we begin to talk about it prolificate around our intellect
(13:35):
and we view it from an outside point of view,
when really what I'm trying to do is go, yeah,
we understand it from an outside point of view. We
understand shadow work, we learn about indigenous all of that,
But if you really want to get the most out
of the book, you have to embody it and live it.
So in that, I would say me, growing up in
(13:59):
a with a red body, I had an understanding of
being a part of versus being individual. It was and
not just necessarily a part of a tribe, because you know,
that's a difficult thing, but I felt like I was
(14:21):
a part of something greater than me. And what I
now know is that I call that the natural world.
I'm a part of this life force. I'm a part
of you know, the sun sees me when it comes up.
So when I try to understand, and then I go
off on my way and I go to school and
I get my degrees and all of that, and and
(14:42):
I'm looking at it from that mental realm, right, and
I understand it and everything. And so I when I
approach a shadow, I'm like, oh, well, you've got the
conversations between Freud and Young, you have this psychotherapy, you
have the ID and the super ego, the ego. How
does that translate to the natural world? Like, how can
(15:05):
I understand the natural world, which is me and you
from this lens of you know, psychology. And so when
I superimpose them, it's just like, oh, when you talk
about shadow, I understand that in the natural world as
literally being a shadow. When you talk about you know
(15:27):
this or that, I literally understand it, and I translate
it to more of a natural world ancient phenomenon that
humans have been or the human race has been a
part of for a long time. And I kind of
bring people back to their body, their understanding and their
(15:50):
personal connections with the natural world versus providing them. Let's
approach a shadow from a scary place of I'm going
to open a door and you're going to see your
own monsters. Two more of a let's approach a shadow.
Let's go into the forest and see what we can find. Right,
Just changing perspective and position opens up the psyche, the body,
(16:13):
the spirit, the mind, to not have these like gateways
that you are you know, go through, but to go, oh,
let me discover more about myself. Let me be curious,
let me be open.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So yeah, I love that you have the theme as
a shaman. Is the shaman in the tribe? Also the therapist?
Is he or she who has been identified as the
shaman sensitive to to someone's trauma, sensitive to someone having
(16:51):
problems with their shadow to the point where they're not functioning.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, I love that question. I would not speak on
the half of all shamans in that they would be
therapists in the tribe. However, I would absolutely say that
you hit the nail on the head that you go
up to a shaman, medicine person whatever they refer to
themselves as as this member within a tribe. Yeah, they
(17:19):
can detect trauma, they can see it. Different ones see
it in different ways. It's just kind of like, I
think the best way would say, if you were to
go to the doctor, maybe it's his specialty to look
at maybe your heart or your lungs or whatever, but
in truth he sees that there's something wrong with your system,
(17:42):
and his approach maybe a different approach or a psychological approach,
and so kind of the diagnostics. I would say, I
can't speak on behalf of all shamans, but from my
understanding of the shamanic positioning within a tribe, all of
them would say, you're walking with a limp. What happened exactly? Now?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
You describe yourself as a medicine woman, Yes, and I
think I obviously I'm not sure, but it seems like
that's the same thing medicine woman shaman. But medicine woman
is like, to my mind, medicine plants or somebody who
understands the intricacy of the natural world and applies it
(18:24):
in a therapeutic approach.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I would agree. So the reason why I do that
is because if you look at like basic shamanism, you look,
you're you're able to understand that. All across the globe,
we have people in a tribe that do the same things.
They work with the unseen world. They work with the
(18:49):
natural world to bring balance and harmony into the community.
That is kind of the overarching thing when you go
to the history of Navajo. We didn't know this word shaman.
You know, that's that's a different word. So what we
would refer to ourselves as, or actually what people would
(19:13):
call us is and I want to make that distinction.
There is medicine, person, hand, trembler, singer, which then now
that we understand this word shaman goes underneath that. The
reason why I say they will call us is because
I've always been me. I've always understood things through my
(19:36):
own lens, which is the natural world, spirituality, you know,
the mental body, emotional body, you know, physical bodies, spiritual body.
I always have these understandings, how that tree is talking
to me, but didn't you see that bird fly by?
And it never really translated to my academic world, right,
(19:56):
it never really is like, oh, I knew that I
would get a good, you know, great on this test
because I saw a butterfly Like that doesn't translate directly.
So I just kept behaving authentically and people started coming
up to me outside of the Navajo nation saying could
you please teach me shamanism? And I'm like, why would
you ask me that? And they kept coming from all
(20:19):
different spaces, and I would be recognized by tribes down
in South South America. Oh you're shaman, you're shaman, and
so that's what I say. I never said I am
a shaman. They started calling me that, and until I
stopped behaving like that. Until I'm stopped, I'm not recognized
(20:40):
as that. I will be that for the people. So
it's a calling that I responded to. But yeah, it
would be a medicine person. That's why I call myself
a medicine person. Right, so very interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yet, let's get this out of the way. How did
you come up in the Novajo community. Were you surrounded
or identified as somebody who was sensitive to the shadow
work and considered a medicine woman or did you kind
of like say, you know what, I kind of like that,
(21:15):
I have an affinia, I have an affiliation. I have
a natural awareness of people who are distressed.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I love this question. So back to my father. His
father is Uh was shaman medicine man oh, and his
spirit was that of the crow, the raven which basically,
if you want to get a picture of that in
your mind, envision a Novajo man dancing around a fire
(21:48):
with a blanket, and the way that he is dancing
mimics the crow and the flight and the understanding he
embodies that, which is why I am granddaughter crow to
honor my ground father, because I hold his spirit now
it jumped over. So my dad also a holy man.
He was a holy man when he walked to this earth.
(22:10):
But he found his holiness in the Christianized God and
the Abrahamic religions. And I think a lot of that
was explained through the boarding school and things. Yet still
holy man, different structure, holy man, nonetheless. So my father,
you know, I was raised on the Navajo reservation, or
(22:32):
I was born there, and then I came up to Denver.
My family came up to Denver, and my father had
a church called the Christian Indian Center, and he was
the pastor at this church, and so he would preach
in Navajo the Christianized view or perspective of you know,
(22:53):
spirituality and that or religion or whatever you want to
call it, and to a noveljo audience. And so I
was there his youngest daughter and the way that I
behaved was a taboo, a little taboo. I definitely was
called out to be highly sensitive, wise or whatever. They
(23:20):
would say, whyse beyond your ears or whatever they would say,
or oh you have a spirit with you or whatever.
This was. So I was raised to be a spiritual leader.
They thought it would be under the Christianized faith. But
what I did was long story short. I decided to
leap frog back to my DNA into my DNA, and
(23:43):
I started listening to myself and talking to my grandfather's
spirit through trance work, et cetera, shamanistic journeying and come up.
So to answer your question, I definitely was unique. I
didn't choose the show The Crow and the Raven is shadow.
(24:04):
It's taboo. So am I. So yeah, this is my jam.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
This is where I love that. Hey, I'm curious, how
do we know when we have trauma? How do we
identify If somebody is working all the time, they have
a family life, and and they're not sure, how do
they identify? What are some of the signs or or signposts.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, that's a great question because there are many. But
what I'll try to do is give some common examples.
One common example would be to check in with yourself,
meaning do a body scan, Like take your consciousness that's
(24:53):
flying all across the universe, going into books and everything,
and bring it into your body and feel your feet
are they hot? Are they cold? Feel your knees, are
they sore? Are they agile? Feel your backbone is it tired?
Is it strong? Feel inside and know that you are here.
(25:15):
And so when you do that a few times, you
get to know what's here. Now, when you get to
know how it feels to be what I'll call embodied
or body conscious or body scanning, that actually your body
is going to tell you because it holds all trauma.
Your body is your map to everything that you've experienced
(25:40):
from like a somatic experience. You can look at it
through this lens. And this is how I view it,
is that all trauma is held within the physical body,
even if it's DNA trauma or historical trauma, and it's
still in your body. And so when you do a
body scan and you just want to escape, don't feel
(26:00):
safe in your body. I don't want to be in
my body right now. This is that you would call
that a trigger. You were triggered, so you walk into
a room and you feel odd and then something hits you.
You don't have to completely understand it. But this feeling
of I'm I feel like I just kind of am
(26:20):
not embodied. I feel like I'm hovering. That is a
number one indicator of understanding that therein lies a trigger.
You were triggered. Now what triggered you? All of that
kind of stuff that gets really scary unless you're in
a safe place to explore. And but that would be
a good good way. And triggers don't have to be like, oh,
(26:45):
there was this monster. Triggers could be something as simple
as I was hurt by a dog. Dogs scare my body.
Uh yeah, I see a dog, I want out, I fight, flight, freeze,
I wanna trauma. That those are those are natural indicators,
(27:06):
and so they come out in each person's lived experience
or life differently, but they're all signaling the same thing.
I am not comfortable in my body.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah. You brought up something that you feature in the book,
which is ancestral trauma, and this is one that is
kind of in the vogue right now, which is people
of color, people of certain races, and you even talk
about DNA trauma. Give us a sense of what that is,
(27:37):
because that's a real important area to work with, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
It's very important because it's the most unseen right now.
You don't consider you think most people when they do
shadow work, they're like, oh, maybe it's all the way
back to the womb and then we kind of stop there.
But what I'm trying to do, but in certain groups,
But what I'm I'm trying to do is say there
is a whole nother curiosity exploration of what we are
(28:07):
now calling DNA trauma historical trauma. And I didn't really
understand that until it happened to me, Cliff, when I
was in a room with an individual. My body just
started shaking, and I was like, why am I nervous?
(28:28):
I'm not a nervous person. I'm very curious. I enjoy
meeting people, you know. And I'm like, I'm nervous and
I'm like, oh my mouth is I'm thirsty, And I'm like,
what is going on with me? Am I cold? Like?
Should I put on a coat? Why is my body
responding this way? That's how disconnected. I could not find
an explanation until he started talking telling me about his
(28:54):
ideology that natives, especially not he is here to save
from their savage ways with his nonprofit. Oh even saying
that now, I'm like, it hurts my being, and I
(29:16):
at that moment was like, oh, well, I'm busy, let's go,
you know. And I and I exited that situation, and
I was it took me like two hours to really
get a hold of myself inside my physical body, Like,
I didn't know why that triggered me. I didn't know.
(29:36):
I knew what he said, I knew that my history
is Navajo, but I didn't understand why I was having
a visceral response. And so in my exploration of that,
I realized the best way that I can explain it
is if you look at my nose, I have a
Navajo nose. If you look at my eyes, they are deep,
(30:00):
dark Native eyes, high cheekbones, etc. So if my bone
structure and my physical makeup actually comes out as Novljo
in my body, why of course wouldn't it hold both
the beauty as well as the trauma.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
with my guest today, granddaughter Crow, discussing her newly released book,
Shamanism and Your Shadow will be right back. My guest
(31:22):
today is Granddaughter Crow. She is a Navajo medicine woman,
and she is discussing her newest book, Shamanism and Your Shadow.
So you're you're recognizing a reaction you're having to someone
(31:43):
perhaps saying something, perhaps looking at you and having a
body gesture that's maybe repulsed or whatever, and that's triggering something.
How do you how do you work on that? I
was thinking about my situation, of course. Uh, my grandfather
and his people immigrated from Germany in nineteen twelve, and
(32:08):
I think he talks a little bit about the backlash.
He came to California and worked in the Central California,
but he was treated his family was treated very very poorly.
When we think about our ancestors like that, that comes
through in a way, doesn't it. And so how do
(32:30):
we go about healing and something like that? Do we say?
Do we go into a vision quest a many vision
quests and look at our grandparents and say, I understand
where you're with that's you know, and I'm guessing this
is where the trauma is or where the shadow is.
How do we go about working on that.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well. That is actually a brilliant segue to like the
first half of Shamanism and Shadow is really like explanation
around what is the shadow seen through psychology, the terms
with Carl Young and everything and this DNA history and
historical trauma, and then it kind of gets into so
(33:10):
now what do we do right? So it's not one
size fits all explanation, but it is that the natural
world can help you because the natural world has experienced volcanoes,
you know, tsunamis, the natural world has earthquakes. The natural
(33:33):
world has also experienced trauma. If you look at the
animal kingdom within the natural world, how does a crow
or a raven like because it holds such a taboo,
you know, connotation in so many legends and lores, and
(33:56):
I mean they eat trash, they eat roadkills, so I
get it. Yeah, they're kind of spooky, you know, and
and kind of whoa you know. But at the end
of the day, these are the personalities I will call them.
These are the wisdom keepers, the animals mother Earth. And
(34:20):
when you find one to connect with to be able
to release your trauma or work through it, it's a
it's a very interesting relationship. Now, what does that look
like in like in like today. So let's say that
you are looking at uh, you know, the trauma from
(34:41):
your you know, nineteen twelve. They came over here, they
spent all of their money to come to the land
of milk and honey. Right, that's what they did, right,
And then they are like, I believe in the American dream,
I'm going to build up I'm going to do this.
And yet they were chastised as, oh, you're less than
in all of that. So how do you deal with that? Actually,
(35:03):
I would say the owl. I would say work with
the owl, because the owl is able to see in
the night. It's nocturnal, okay, the night being the subconscious
mind and the unseen world the unknown world. So by
(35:26):
its nature it shows us I will perceive the owl
perceives into the unknown, into the subconscious if you allow
it or understand it. And then the owl will also say,
but your ancestors have been around, and then it'll show
you if you if you kind of focus on the owl,
(35:49):
and then I do have guided meditations in the book
that may help with us. Then you kind of listen
to the guided meditation, which actually is on my YouTube channel.
My husband read all of them, so you don't have
to like record your own. You can just listen to
it at Granddaughter Crow on YouTube and so all of
those are there, and you could listen to the meditation
(36:11):
and it takes you through a visualization. You don't have
to be like I don't I've never done this before.
You just it takes you through a visualization a story,
if you will, where you are the main character and
you're walking through a certain landscape and then you see
an owl and then right there by that time, you're
(36:31):
kind of like the owl and you are now connected.
And then after this whole meditation is basically like an ingress,
a portal away for you to start exploring. And then
you come out of that and you start journaling what
did you see, what did you feel in that? What
did the owl say to you? How did it say
(36:52):
it to you? And maybe go back a few times
and go, Okay, now I really want to I met
the owl. Now I want to talk to the owl
about my grandfather, you know, in California, and did he
experience trauma? And how can I work with that? And
you kind of go back with owl and things will
come up within you. I trust the natural world. I
(37:17):
trust the organic nature that even lies within each of us.
And if you sit in silence long enough, your truth
will come to the forefront. Maybe your grandfather will say, yeah,
but in a way I understand it, because here I am,
and they got here first, and now they're trying to
(37:40):
use me as a stepping stone to elevate themselves. It
really had nothing to do with me. It had to
do with them or whatever. These wisdoms will start coming up.
And when you embody this wisdom and truly begin to
understand with that owl, oh, the lay of the land,
then all of a sudden you'll get a new perspective,
(38:01):
a higher perspective, because it's an owl and it flies
above a bird's eye view around it, so that you're
not locked in the woods with it, feeling your own
feelings and understanding something you don't know how to understand
because you don't know the stories. You see it from
a bird's eye view, and then you're able to kind
of go in there and the wisdom will come forth.
(38:22):
And sometimes I really want to say this, Cliff, Sometimes
the wisdom doesn't make sense to the mental realm, but
your body it makes sense. To your body. It makes
sense to your emotional state. You begin to go, oh,
I don't know what just happened. I feel relaxed. I'm
going to throw in something that my dad used to say.
(38:44):
We talked so intelligently about our confusions, but when you
do you know what, you truly know. What he was
saying is we have all of these words and we
are trying to put it in our mental realm. Yeah,
but did you embody?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
It?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Does your body know what you know? And so this
book really helps with the embodiment, which is that shamanistic aspect. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Part two gets into the animal spirits, which is what
you ask people to identify. I love the aspect of
choosing four. You have four helpers. You have the raven,
the snake, the owl, and the wolf. You could could
have gone crazy and got into insects and everything, and
I really don't like that because then you're kind of confused.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Why did you.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Choose these four spirits as helpers? Well, thing, you just
talked about the owl, so we understand the owl, but
what about because it makes it so much easier to
really begin working. You can find your spirit helper and
move forward. But why choose those four.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, one could say that I chose the another could
say that they chose me. Another say that to Yeah,
to my shamanistic mind, they made the most sense. So
and here's why. So the raven taboo just by the
way that it looks and what it does. It's got
(40:17):
this dark cloak right spooky and if you think about it,
like in the media, usually if you're watching a movie
or something like that and you go into the dark
you know house, the haunted house, or you go into
a graveyard, you'll hear inevitably, you know, crows cawing in
(40:38):
the background, because it's associated with spooky and taboo and scary,
and so is the shadow. It is associated with spooky
and taboo and death and all of these things. So
the crow was a natural one. It's like, what if
the crow was my shaman? What if the crow was
my guide? What if the crow is my teacher and
I could let it guide me through the spookiness. And
(41:03):
then we get into the snake. Well, once again, snakes
are taboo all of a sudden, you know, and the
Abrahamic religions you're looking at, well that's the you know,
the serpent is Satan perceiving the world, and so it
has this negative connotation and yet in its in its
(41:26):
own natural organic being, it has this ability to shed.
And maybe that's what we need to do with the shadow.
We need to shed. Maybe the old story that we
were telling ourselves to comfort ourselves because we weren't ready
to do this shadow work. We shed, And so the
(41:47):
snake actually teaches us how to shed our skin. And
then we just talked about the owl, and so all
go into the wolf. The wolf. Oh my goodness, talk
about taboo, the big bad wall. I mean, come on,
he you know, tried to gobble up red riding hood.
What else did he do? He blew a house down,
(42:08):
you know. I mean there's even in our psyche, the
stories that we even have here and across the globe.
I'm sure that there are different stories. But the wolf
is very taboo because you've got the big bad Wolf.
So if these four are taboo, the raven and the
snake and the owl and you know, and the wolf
(42:29):
and the shadow is taboo and granddaughter Crow's taboo, well
it's a perfect match. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
You know, Yeah, I love it. And there's also something
about the energy behind an animal totem that takes us
to the most visceral, raw state of humanity.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Right, Yes, absolutely, talk.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
About animal rawness, animal consciousness.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, so the animals have wisdom. I mean seriously, there
are many of them that have been here long before
us and probably will be here long after us, depending
on your belief system. Another show. Right, But at the
end of the day, you know, it's kind of this.
(43:17):
They don't confuse themselves with pontification of intellectualizing things that
they do not understand. That is a very human thing,
and it's a very beautiful thing. I'm not trying to
knock it. It's our exploration, it's our curiosity. It's why
we do research and grow. But they are running on
(43:38):
the basic you know, I am there present, right, Animals
are present. I don't sit there and look at my
cat and go oh are you thinking about yesterday? Or
my dog and go oh, are you wondering what's going
on tomorrow? They're present, They're embodied, and I think that
(43:59):
that's part of the wisdom that they continuously carry that
we can remember in ourselves. Maybe I can be present
like my cat, like my dog.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I like that. Yeah, you're more earth centered and you
kind of leave technology and you come back to the core,
you know, earth based functionality. I want to talk a
little bit about the processes that you feature in the book,
and I want if you could talk about the four,
(44:30):
which is recognize, acknowledge, understand, and respect. And I really
like those because it brings in the full spectrum of
the shadow itself being trauma. And we just talked recently
about the recognition of a trauma process, you know, and
(44:54):
one of the big ones. Let's talk about one and
work through it. If you wouldn't mind somebody who is
feeling depressed always and can't get out of that stage.
They're always kind of down. You know, life is the pits.
I can't get out of the situation, and it can
go across the board. My job, I hate my job,
(45:15):
I hate my relationship. I never have any money, you
know what I mean. So let's talk about the four
as you call them, the processes.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, so let's talk exactly to that person. If I
were speaking with that person as a medicine person, I
would say, do you recognize that you are depressed? Period? Yes? Okay,
(45:46):
let's not assign a story. Let's not assign a story.
Let's not try to explain it, defend it, da da
da da da, create a story so that it's acceptable
or whatever. Let's just recognize that first step. Recognize it. Now.
Let's not say because in creating stories, I'm depressed because
(46:09):
my job sucks, I'm depressed because this person. I'm depressed
because of my money. Let's take away everybody else and
just go, how is your internal system responding to this
external pressure. Acknowledge that your internal system is responding to
(46:31):
the external pressure in this way. I know that that
I hope I didn't lose anybody there. So it's basically
external pressure internal reality. When we're working on the internal world,
we need to not only recognize I'm depressed, but acknowledge
that I am depressed because of my external world. And
(46:54):
that's all I'll say. I'm not going to discount it.
So it's an acknowledgment of.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
The other thing I just mentioned real quickly is that
the recognition is huge because you may come in to
work with you as a medicine person and go, I
don't know what my problem is. I don't I mean,
I just feel like crap all the time. That's right,
And you will say, well, you'll probably ask some questions
and get to the heart of it. But the recognition
(47:21):
is huge, isn't it. It's the foundation to begin working
on relieving and identifying the shadow.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
How can you solve a problem If you can't identify
the problem, all of the answers might be around you.
But until you I identify what you're actually trying to
work on or solve your question. If you can't identify
the question, how can you get the answer? So, yes,
recognition and acknowledgment are huge. So I guess a simpler
(47:50):
way would say I am depressed, and then it's like,
who is depressed? I am? I acknowledge that I am depressed, Okay,
and now you are in a state great, uncomfortable, horrible.
We got it. Let's move from here. It's a tense muscle,
it's an experience, it's a collision, it's a trauma, it's
(48:13):
whatever it is. And you know what I'm going to
do with that. I am not gonna shame you for that.
I'm going to recognize it as a part of your life,
your lived experience. Maybe you're a warrior, maybe you're a
misunderstand stood genius. Maybe you are a creative soul living
in a logical world. Let's acknowledge that it's also organic,
(48:34):
that it's okay, And then you go into the understanding
and that's why I'm like, then you start beginning to
explore why do I have this internal reaction towards an
external experience? What am I trying to do here? What
is that understanding? And that was in brief kind of
(48:55):
what we did with the owl, and then the final
one is kind of like, well, when I understand why
I'm acting this way, it really loosens me up. I'm like, WHOA,
there's a reason. I'm not just all messed up. I'm
not just prone to depression. Maybe there is a reason.
And then all of a sudden, you know, it's just
(49:18):
like and of course, you know some people are prone
to depression, and all of that always work with, you know,
the medical field, and this is not to you know,
this is to partner with anything else that you're doing.
And then you go into the wolf or the I'm sorry,
the respect Now I respect myself, I respect my shadow.
(49:43):
I understand, I recognize it, I understand where it came from.
And I look as a wolf or through the eyes
of a wolf, and the wolf teaches me we're in
a pack. I'm not the only one. Everybody else has
a shaf shaw. And this acceptance in that kind of
(50:04):
a way actually helps you to accept and relax the body.
So it's like I actually do have a pain. I
acknowledge it, I understand where it comes from, and I
understand it, and now I actually find some self love
and I accept what this is. And it actually causes
(50:25):
you to relax more into your authenticity versus a reactive
mind of reacting to shadow or letting the shadow just
react for you because you're triggered and you don't know
how to You actually pull in the shadow, recognize it,
and you can come forth.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
with my guest today, granddaughter Crow, discussing her newest book Shamanism,
and your shadow will return to you shortly. We're looking
(51:43):
at the shadow, which is also considered trauma from a
shamanistic point of view, how indigenous people dealt with and
continue to work with trauma and animal totems. So you're
saying that by recognizing it, you gain power and you
(52:07):
can function because you're saying, Okay, this is what's affecting me.
I recognize this as my depression, and what next? What
are the processes to begin release? Do we release it?
Some people are chronically depressed, though, so I mean.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yet not yet. I think that would be something preemptive.
I think that the second thing would be to shed
your old understanding of what does that mean? So when
I say that, I mean the world we have experiences.
What we're doing is experiencing phenomenon. What we do with
(52:48):
this phenomenon, this intake is we create a story or
meaning around it. So I would kind of explore just
a little bit about are you what meaning are you
putting behind you're depressed m They're like, well what do
you mean? And I'm like, well, what does what does
that mean? And then you start understanding, Oh, well, it
(53:10):
makes me feel like less of a human being. It
makes me feel like I am the bad guy. It
makes me feel like I am partue. Oh now that's
what we need to release. Yeah, those are the things
that we need to release. You've got pressure and the
story and the meaning, and so through the recognition, it's
a it's a process with the snake of what do
(53:31):
I hold on to and what do I let go of?
And what I let go of is my belief system
or lived story or my meaning around what this is.
So maybe I can play with it a little bit
more and understand. I'm just a really serious person that
is an introvert and all of a sudden there's there's
a different and when you see that little light, all
(53:53):
of a sudden, you just start blossoping. It's blossoming, yeah,
naturally and organically, just like the natural world. Does I
know that this is really hard to solidify and you know,
an our show, but it's it's a process and it's
beautiful it, you know, just really quickly. The raven is
(54:13):
there to help you recognize because it sees everything. It's
very alert. The snake is there to help you with
that acknowledgment and releasing stories around it. The owl is
there to help you deeper understand, and the wolf is
there to help you understand that, yeah, you're part of
(54:35):
a tribe. We all got a shadow, we all got
something going on, you know, So.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
With it with obviously depression is just one trauma. How
do we integrate or how do we choose the animal
as the spirit helper you mentioned ow. I have an
affinity to owls. Everywhere I go I hear owls. I
hear them at night. They I live out kind of
(55:00):
in the country. They're close to where I live. I
just fixated on owls. I think they're a major helper
in my life. But it's maybe only be appropriate for
certain health issues or certain crises. How do we know
which is the best helper in a certain situation?
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Love that? So the book is kind of laid out
in a four step process so that you get to
explore one part with the raven, and then as you
read the next chapter, you're exploring things through the perspective
of the snake, and you're exploring things through the perspective
of the owl and the wolf, and inevitably, like I
literally have received feedback that's like, I have an affinity.
(55:49):
I love these animals. But man, that raven has stayed
with me. And I'm dreaming about the raven and I'm
working with the and I remember when I was a
little girl, a raven landed on my head and it was,
you know, all of these beauties, and so one probably
will stand out more. I think that it's and I'll
(56:13):
be very I'll just talk to you as a shaman.
We think that we are choosing them, when in fact
they are choosing us. Very good, Yeah, that owl, I
don't get to see them all the time. If you
see them, they let you see it. Wow, they saw
you before you saw it. They were highly aware, they
(56:36):
knew you were there, and yet they allowed you and
they and they felt you, and they allowed you to
see it. And so that could be a stronger guide
for you to work through, you know, just that connectivity
around what are the very basic what are the attributes
(56:56):
like study owls. Find out how they turn their head,
find out how they see, find out how they listen,
find out when they hunt, how they mate, what their
food is. And then to extract those cons and turn
those those literal things and turn them into metaphors around
yourself and go, oh, the owl sees at night into
(57:18):
the unseen. Maybe I need to pay attention to my
subconscious or my dreams, right that kind of uh. Yeah,
and they they explore. And so the beauty around this
is some will say, granddaughter Crow, you're a shaman and
you are giving us a shamanistic approach to the shadow.
Thank you. And in truth, if you read that book
Deep enough. I actually am saying, let me introduce you
(57:40):
to the shaman of the raven. Let me introduce you
to a snake shaman. Let me introduce you to the
owl shaman, the pure energy, the wolf shaman.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah. I love that. One of the things that you
bring up in the book is that you become I
think you're at us to not maybe not asking us,
but suggesting becoming your own shaman in a way and
kind of like not that you're going to go and
do sweat lodges and all that kind of stuff, but
(58:13):
you kind of become self diagnostic in a way. You
kind of can recognize when you have issues and processing
in more of a helpful as you call it, natural
a natural world focal point. Talk a little bit about
the shaman and becoming the shaman.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Love that. So I take my liberties and I do
approach this topic with the heightened awareness and sensitivity of
you know, appropriation, appreciation, and rage. Sure, all of that
kind of stuff. I understand that. But what I am
saying is you are you are your own healer. I
(58:57):
am not here as a shaman to heal you. I
here to walk with you on your path to your
healing and your healing is as individual as you are,
and so take as you move through this, may I
empower you to trust yourself, begin to explore yourself, get
(59:18):
to know yourself, and actually know that you have an
internal healer, just like the natural world does. The natural
world heals itself, and we are a part of the
natural world and we have that too, as long as
we don't get in our own way.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah. I love that the books called Shamanism and Your
Shadow using animal guys to explore and heal your inner self.
My guest today's been granddaughter Crow. As we conclude, Joy,
can you give us some examples case studies of people
you've worked with and perhaps obviously you don't want to
(59:56):
give up their names, but some specific types of traumas
they have been dealing with.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Absolutely. So one that I find was really interesting is
she is a teacher, So she's an educator and she
was teaching I think high school or middle school, which
is very disruptive because you've got a lot of you know,
(01:00:23):
young kids trying to explore and they don't know what
they're doing, and their brain is developed and they're they're
not sensitive, and you know, some of them are really sensitive.
So there's a whole lay of the land, and she
ended up moving away from teaching and kind of hiding.
And then actually, I talked to a lot of teachers.
So if you're listening and you're a teacher, I'm not
(01:00:44):
calling you out. I'm not calling you out. But she
ended out disconnecting from her internal teacher because she related
teaching to overstimulation and trauma, and so it was very subtle,
but it literally made her change her career. And so
(01:01:07):
in the book, as she was reading through the book,
and she was going through it and she understood and
everything was great when she got to the wolf, which
actually that spirit totem is right aligned with the teacher
four feet on the ground, teaching, showing showing tribe, showing clarity.
There's some lore that says that the wolve's actually taught
(01:01:28):
man how to live in tribe and community, so they're
are teacher. And when she connected with oh, I can
connect with the wolf. I understand the wolf. I embody
the wolf. I remember who I am. I'm teacher, and
that was an experience. I don't want to teach them,
but I still am teacher. So she re embodied instead
(01:01:49):
of getting a rid of an aspect of self. It was,
so it's really really beautiful, and each one of these,
I mean, I haven't come across somebody who's like, hey, daughter, Crow,
I got nothing, I got nothing out of your book.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Exactly a challenge.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, great, But if I would, I would say, well,
then it is that's the wrong classroom for you. Go
pick it up some other time, or maybe you need
another teacher, because when you actually, if you are called,
which means you don't need like a big sign or
a lightning bolt. If you are curious about this, there's
something that's calling you. And I don't think it's the book.
(01:02:30):
I think it's your own shadow saying explore me, explore me,
explore me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Can you give us an
example of somebody who has crippling trauma to the point
where they're not able to function? You rarely, I mean
not rarely. We're in the when you get to these
big cities, people are just overwhelmed and they are discombobulated
(01:02:56):
to the point where they're barely functioning.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Yeah. I would work with this woman, beautiful. She used
to be a reverend, a healer. She'd worked hardcore in
social justice with just some really hard things in life,
you know, very very hard parts about the world. And
(01:03:23):
she gave herself to this practice and it ended out
hitting her nervous systems so hard that she locked herself away.
She ordered groceries, but she found me. But she found
me so she could still function. And she asked me,
I feel safe with you, Will you come to my house?
(01:03:48):
And I showed up as me understanding that I was
walking into somebody who has been highly triggered, and so
I'm not gonna have an agenda. I'm here to honor
and love. And through the process it was really interesting
because through her trauma, this dehabilitating trauma, actually caused her
(01:04:13):
to forget who she is what she likes. So I said,
your first assignment is to go to the next time
you go to the grocery store, because she started shopping.
She started getting out there. I said, pick something that
you like. What do you like? And she was like,
(01:04:34):
I don't know what I like.
Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Like.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
I get these foods because they're healthy for me. I'm like, yeah,
but what do you like? Next time I see you,
tell me one thing that you like. And so she
came back. Granddaughter Crow, I like strawberry ice cream. And
I was like, oh, awesome, perfect, that's that recognition, right,
And so then I go and so then I go,
did you buy it? Well, no, granddaughter Crow, I didn't
(01:04:59):
buy it. Oh okay, your next assignment is to buy
something that you like. So it really was this process
that she had so much trauma that she forgot wow,
who she was and what she enjoyed. And the path
out of that was more like the evolution of a butterfly,
where she began to remember who and what she is.
(01:05:22):
And so that's part of the way that I perceive
things is that trauma back to the beginning, trauma is
kind of like, oh, you're limping. What's that about? You know,
why are you limping? Emotionally? Mentally like why are you physically? Mentally?
Why are you limping? And then the exploration into that
(01:05:43):
and not seeing I don't approach people like you're limping,
You're less than you. God's punishing you. But da da
d D. I'm kind like, I'm curious about your limp.
I want to know your limp. I want to understand
your limp. I'm not here as superior to your limp.
I'm not inferior or to your limp. I am with
your limp, limp talk to me, and then all of
(01:06:04):
a sudden, when that limp releases, almost like a tight
and muscle, the rest of the person starts emerging in
their authenticity. And I would bet I haven't talked to
her in probably a decade, but I would bet my
fingers are crossed that she's still enjoying some strawberry ice cream.
Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Funny, funny, can you mention what her her identified trauma was?
Was it an abusive family life or something?
Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I don't know what we'll cut out, but it was
sex trafficking.
Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Oh okay, yeah, that's pretty traumatic.
Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Joy.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Who did you write this book for? Who would you
if you were to identify someone who would pick it
up at the store? Who would that person be?
Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I love that because and I love that I mean
spoken from author writer to author writer, because that's exactly
what we do. Like who am I writing this for?
I'm writing it. Yeah, I'm writing it for the individual
who's curious to know more about themselves and who just
(01:07:10):
loves animals and curious the curious mind. And it's funny
because sometimes what will happen, you know, And I'll just
be honest here, I'll get an email from or even
a message you know through my DMS saying wow, this
happened because of your book. I don't know these people,
(01:07:30):
and I feel I wrote this book for you. Oh right,
So I wrote it for whoever you know. I wrote
it for the exploratory mind. I wrote it for the
person who wants to do some self knowledge, wants to
become their authenticity, and is working through things that they
maybe don't have time to go to a psychologist, or
(01:07:52):
maybe their psychologist is telling them read this book, because
some psychologists are now starting to go Okay, I can't
get through to you or your trauma. Go talk to
the owl. You know. Yeah, I've had that too. So
it really is. I don't know if that answers it,
but it really is that explored. I wrote it for
the person who is ready to read it, the curious soul,
(01:08:15):
and whatever you get out of it is completely personal
and up to you, and I hope that you find
more of you in the book, more of who you are,
authentically fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
You have a website which is Granddaughtercrow dot com. Where
else are you? You have a YouTube channel with video.
Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Yeah, so if you remember Granddaughter Crow, you and Google
it you'll see where I'm at. I've got the website
which gives all of my books, my podcast, I teach,
I do events, and I give one on one sessions
as well. So if you're working through this book and
you're just like, Okay, I really need to talk to
(01:08:57):
Granddaughter Crow because this happened is normal, you know, or whatever,
you can book with me online and then Granddaughter Crow
at YouTube, which is where I really house my podcast,
even though it's wherever you get your podcasts, Instagram, whatever,
at Granddaughter Crow. So just remember Granddaughter Crow and whichever
way you like to reach out would be.
Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
I bet you have a podcast, Granddaughter Crow.
Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Huh, well, it's on my Granddaughter Crow channel. My podcast
is actually called Belief, Being and Beyond, which means yeah,
which means that whatever we believe in constitutes how our being.
This is how we behave in the world. But there's
always something more. So I love bringing great people to
great people with different belief systems that say our curious
(01:09:43):
minds and so that we can explore from our own
home without having to hunt down somebody who has a
belief system life shamanism and go I'm afraid and I
don't know what to ask you, so I just kind
of give you guys a podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Yeah, wonderful. Hey, much success on this book, and I
really enjoyed it and great having you on the program.
Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
It's been my honor and my pleasure. And may the
owls be with you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Thank you. You know, there's something to be said with
regards to simplicity, and this book is very, very basic.
It's very easy to read. It's not overthought and expanded
to the point where you're taking fifty pages to explain
a single concept. It's very straightforward, and that's what I
(01:10:36):
really like about it. It's very powerful. And I'm still
surprised that there's four animal totems to work with, four
energies to work with. Maybe it's because one of my
favorites is the owl. We talked about the owl. But
when you're focusing on trauma release, these four power animals
(01:10:59):
or sacred animal energies come into play, and she describes
them quite elegantly in this book. It's really rare shamanism
and your Shadow is the title.
Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
The other thing that is funny, She's got a book
coming out in the fall that talks about being your
own shaman and not relying on psychedelics. And this is
something that I'm faced with right now, with so much
pressure to use ayahuasca, to use DMT, to use piote,
and I'm hesitant. And here's somebody who's written books on cannabis.
Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
And you know, when I had this cardiac thing, this
heart attack, it's simply changed my entire physiology, but also
puts me in a realm where I have to be
careful in taking psychedelics. I have to be careful in
exposing my physiology to powerful stimulants. You know, I don't
(01:12:00):
drink regular coffee anymore. I drink decaf. I don't use
artificial caffeine in the form of brain enhancers. I use
lions made drops, and I have a supplementation that is
pretty much minerals and vitamins. I don't use stimulants because
(01:12:22):
it affects me, and so I have to be really,
really careful. And she's coming up with a book on
being your own shaman. I love that idea, I really do,
because I think we're in a place within revolution where
we can become our own shaman, our own demn I God.
(01:12:44):
For those of you who are religious, that doesn't mean
that you turn into God. It means that you are
part of God. And I think, you know, a lot
of religions say that as a soul, perhaps modern religion,
but as a soul we have you know, we have
a lot of self awareness, we have a lot of energy,
we have a lot of ability that we don't tap,
(01:13:08):
which can be godlike. So anyhow, check out the book.
It just came out, Shamanism and Your Shadow, and it
was fun having her on the show. I'm looking forward
to talking to her again. Oh yeah, by the way,
it's on Amazon. You can see it on Amazon. Hey,
(01:13:28):
if you're enjoying Earth Ancients and Destiny and any of
the other podcasts that we produce, please consider becoming a
subscriber to Patreon for as little as five dollars a month.
You can support the work we do here on this
podcast and it is appreciated. Five ten, fifteen, even twenty
dollars a month is a huge help and supports the
(01:13:50):
work we do each week on these podcasts. To become
a subscriber, go to Patreon, that's pa t R e
O N dot com, Forward slash Earth Ancients and subscribe.
And we got a ton of guests for you. I
think we're now up to almost forty books in our
digital library that you can download in the comfort of
(01:14:13):
your home. These are full, illustrated, full books. They've just
been digitized for easy convenience, easy distribution. And I think
I mentioned we've had a couple of people download almost
the full library, which is a lot of books, but
some of the top A listeners are in there. We
got some new upcoming authors and there's a lot of
(01:14:34):
really good materials. So again, to become a subscriber of
Earth Ancients, go to Patreon dot com forward slash Earth Ancients.
All right, that's it for this program. I want to
tak my guest today, granddaughter Crow, coming to us from Colorado.
As always, the team of Gail tour, Mark Foster and
(01:14:55):
Feya in Pakistan. You guys rock all right, take care
of me well and we will talk to you next time.
Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Destiny is tools for transformation, meaning that we are offering
you ways to look at your shadow, your trauma, the
parts that aren't working necessarily both mental, physical, and spiritual,
so that you can tune up that you can be
the best that you can be and succeed and be successful. Hey,
(00:43):
this is Cliff, your host of Destiny, and today talking
about a indigenous way to look at the shadow. Another
word for trauma. And we've talked about ancestral trauma. We've
talked about personal trauma, and this is also considered the shadow.
The view we are taking today is shamanistic trauma relief,
(01:09):
and that means identifying what's bothering you, and that can
be depression. I'm depressed about my job, I'm depressed about
my relationship. I'm just depressed generally. Working on that. That's
a form of trauma. Another big one is and this
doesn't come up very often, but ancestral trauma the trauma
(01:32):
of your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and how
it can bleed into your present reality and you don't
even know about it. And this is something that we
don't discuss enough about because if it's in your DNA,
how are you gonna know unless you're feeling sensitive about
how people react to you. Maybe it's the color of
(01:54):
your skin, maybe it's your background, maybe it's things that
are completely out of your control. And so when people
are looking down at you and reacting in a certain
manner makes you feel uncomfortable, that is a form of trauma.
And we don't talk enough about ancestral trauma. We have,
(02:17):
We've had a couple of different people on the program
discussing what that means, how that feels, and how to
address it. But today we're going to look at it
as a shadow. And when it's a shadow, it's hanging
over us without us really knowing about it and addressing it.
So we'll talk about ancestral trauma in a way that
(02:41):
you can look, you can address it, and get a
sense of why you feel the way you do. The
bottom line is trauma comes in all shapes and sizes.
The most important part of trauma is to identify it,
to find it, to understand how it affect your life. Now,
(03:03):
I didn't realize that this ancestral trauma can pass through generations,
but it makes sense if as an example, my grandparents.
My grandfather came to America as an immigrant in the
turn of the century, like nineteen ten. I believe I
(03:24):
might be nineteen twelve, and he was a German and
he came to America. I didn't speak any English, and
he talked about having hard times with the local community.
He fled Europe because there was a world war, a
First World War, and so although he was German, he
(03:44):
was not tolerated outside of his own country. And when
he came to California to be to be with his
father who was in Los Angeles, he was treated poorly
and it took him a number of years to adjust
to that. And he talked about it.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And you know, although I didn't experience the same types
of perhaps it was racism. This is in my DNA,
it's in my genes, and so I'm you know, I
need to address that, so because maybe it's making me
feel less than or not quite good enough, or not
(04:27):
part of the country. And I do love the United States,
I really really do, but you know, I need to
look at this. So ancestral trauma is really a focal
point in what we're talking about today, and it's really
fun to consider not the traditional psychology psychiatry perspective on trauma,
(04:53):
but to look at it from a natural earth based system,
different types of helpers. We're going to talk about the totems,
the animal totems, and how they can reflect and be
used in such a way to heal trauma, to understand
(05:13):
the shadows, and through meditative processes and other forms of
self help, you can relieve. Well, you can first identify
the shadow and begin to relieve it, so it's not
such an influence. And there's so much that we don't
(05:33):
know about. There's so many traumas that we have that
we're unaware of because we just picked them up and
they're just hanging there. It's like a storefront. I feel depressed,
I have a trauma. I'm regularly depressed. I don't feel
great enough, I have low self esteem. I have this
ancestral problem going on where I don't feel that I'm
(05:55):
part of the community, so forth and so on. So
these are all really important considerations that we will address today.
So today's program is Shamanism and your Shadow using animal
guides to explore and heal your inner self. And my
guest is Joy Gray or granddaughter Crow the Earth Ancients.
(06:22):
Sacred Pyramid Toure December one to the twelfth of twenty
twenty five.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
What happens when we walk or we are doing a
ritual or praying over the pyramid is that we literally
resonate with the cavity of what it's called the human resonance.
So in our planet we have resonance that it's called
human resonance. It's like a heartbeat of the planet. So
(06:50):
when this heartbeat of our planet resonates with these type
of structures like these Mayan pyramids, they amplify the human
resonates because they're all made with fractal materials like pezo
electric stones and very particular types of stones. Imagine that
it's like when you have a tune fork and then
(07:11):
you have another tune fork, and they will resonate with
the same frequency. So when we're on top of a pyramid,
it will make our whole body, our DNA, our electromagnetic
field resonate like bes cavity.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
That's our turo Di Leon who is one of our
hosts for the upcoming tour. He is a architect from
Mexico who has incorporated sacred geometry and many of the
buildings he has designed. Who understands the intricacies of pyramids
and maya science jourious for this special tour December first
(07:48):
to the twelfth of this year. For more information and
all the details, go to earthacients dot com Forward slash Tours,
Come out and join us. We speak about shamanism quite
(08:37):
a bit here on Destiny, and I don't think we
have talked about it from a therapeutic point of view.
And today we're going to look at it in the
face of a new book called Shamanism and Your Shadow.
My guest is Joy Gray, otherwise known as Granddaughter Crow,
and I have had a chance to look at this
book and it's excellent. And today we're going to look
(08:58):
at how to process in a shamanistic and an indigenous manner.
And this is really quite quite fun to think about
because this is in many ways more naturalistic, because we're
looking at processes that have probably been used for hundreds
of not thousands of years, and it feels much more
(09:22):
natural to me as I read through this. So Joy,
welcome to Destiny. Great to have you other program.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for that
lovely introduction. Cliff. I really enjoy your program and your curiosity.
With the program, you know, you explore the unexplored, and
you know, weave in hard science with lived experience. And yeah,
(09:49):
I'm a fan.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Talk about being raised noveljo and the spirit and the
dark side of the shadow and how you came up
understanding what this is.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I love that. So it's very interesting because my father
is full blood Navajo. To give your listeners a little
texture around that, he was born in nineteen thirty two,
and in history that would put him right at that
ripe time to be taken from his hogan and put
(10:32):
into the boarding school and taught the English speaking way
and all of that, and so you know, he actually
married a Dutch woman. And I am the product of
two worlds, right, Yeah. The only way that I can
describe myself is that I come from two worlds. And
sometimes when I stand in one solo, I'm like, yeah,
(10:55):
but what about the other. And when I stand in
the other, I'm like, what about the other? In a
very interesting way, it causes me to be more of
a bridge or an interpreter between like the spiritual Navajo
noess and the academic, you know, Dutch side that I hold,
which I love school. And so when talking about my
(11:18):
own lived experience with the Navajo, being of Navajo blood,
there is a very it's it was an oral culture
probably up until about two hundred years ago. So when
we're looking at the Navajo culture, what we're looking at
is pass down indigenous wisdom, as though we would in
(11:43):
any culture if it were long enough back. So what
I'm saying is even my Dutch culture, maybe way back
when also lived in tribe, also had an oral culture
until it was written down. It's just that Navajo is
the freshest and from that personerspective, it really gives this
idea around and I'm trying to figure out how to
(12:07):
say it. It kind of is this lived experience. It
is the dynamic, It is the being in the natural world.
It is being in tribe versus my academic side, which research,
researches and explains to my mind what that's all about.
(12:28):
So I think one of the biggest things that I
want to throw down before I kind of get into
my own story, is this idea that of the education
and understanding things from the mental realm versus the lived
experience and understanding things from a physical lived experience. A
(12:53):
visceral experience, and emotional experience and so forth, and spiritual experience.
And so when I look at what did it with
being asked, what is it like looking at the world
through Navajo lens as well as the shadow and how
did that come up? I actually was raised from two worlds.
(13:14):
So there's a part of me that always understood that
everything is organic. The natural world is organic, our tribe
and community is organic. And then all of a sudden
we begin to talk about it prolificate around our intellect
(13:35):
and we view it from an outside point of view,
when really what I'm trying to do is go, yeah,
we understand it from an outside point of view. We
understand shadow work, we learn about indigenous all of that,
But if you really want to get the most out
of the book, you have to embody it and live it.
So in that, I would say me, growing up in
(13:59):
a with a red body, I had an understanding of
being a part of versus being individual. It was and
not just necessarily a part of a tribe, because you know,
that's a difficult thing, but I felt like I was
(14:21):
a part of something greater than me. And what I
now know is that I call that the natural world.
I'm a part of this life force. I'm a part
of you know, the sun sees me when it comes up.
So when I try to understand, and then I go
off on my way and I go to school and
I get my degrees and all of that, and and
(14:42):
I'm looking at it from that mental realm, right, and
I understand it and everything. And so I when I
approach a shadow, I'm like, oh, well, you've got the
conversations between Freud and Young, you have this psychotherapy, you
have the ID and the super ego, the ego. How
does that translate to the natural world? Like, how can
(15:05):
I understand the natural world, which is me and you
from this lens of you know, psychology. And so when
I superimpose them, it's just like, oh, when you talk
about shadow, I understand that in the natural world as
literally being a shadow. When you talk about you know
(15:27):
this or that, I literally understand it, and I translate
it to more of a natural world ancient phenomenon that
humans have been or the human race has been a
part of for a long time. And I kind of
bring people back to their body, their understanding and their
(15:50):
personal connections with the natural world versus providing them. Let's
approach a shadow from a scary place of I'm going
to open a door and you're going to see your
own monsters. Two more of a let's approach a shadow.
Let's go into the forest and see what we can find. Right,
Just changing perspective and position opens up the psyche, the body,
(16:13):
the spirit, the mind, to not have these like gateways
that you are you know, go through, but to go, oh,
let me discover more about myself. Let me be curious,
let me be open.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So yeah, I love that you have the theme as
a shaman. Is the shaman in the tribe? Also the therapist?
Is he or she who has been identified as the
shaman sensitive to to someone's trauma, sensitive to someone having
(16:51):
problems with their shadow to the point where they're not functioning.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Well, I love that question. I would not speak on
the half of all shamans in that they would be
therapists in the tribe. However, I would absolutely say that
you hit the nail on the head that you go
up to a shaman, medicine person whatever they refer to
themselves as as this member within a tribe. Yeah, they
(17:19):
can detect trauma, they can see it. Different ones see
it in different ways. It's just kind of like, I
think the best way would say, if you were to
go to the doctor, maybe it's his specialty to look
at maybe your heart or your lungs or whatever, but
in truth he sees that there's something wrong with your system,
(17:42):
and his approach maybe a different approach or a psychological approach,
and so kind of the diagnostics. I would say, I
can't speak on behalf of all shamans, but from my
understanding of the shamanic positioning within a tribe, all of
them would say, you're walking with a limp. What happened exactly? Now?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
You describe yourself as a medicine woman, Yes, and I
think I obviously I'm not sure, but it seems like
that's the same thing medicine woman shaman. But medicine woman
is like, to my mind, medicine plants or somebody who
understands the intricacy of the natural world and applies it
(18:24):
in a therapeutic approach.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I would agree. So the reason why I do that
is because if you look at like basic shamanism, you look,
you're you're able to understand that. All across the globe,
we have people in a tribe that do the same things.
They work with the unseen world. They work with the
(18:49):
natural world to bring balance and harmony into the community.
That is kind of the overarching thing when you go
to the history of Navajo. We didn't know this word shaman.
You know, that's that's a different word. So what we
would refer to ourselves as, or actually what people would
(19:13):
call us is and I want to make that distinction.
There is medicine, person, hand, trembler, singer, which then now
that we understand this word shaman goes underneath that. The
reason why I say they will call us is because
I've always been me. I've always understood things through my
(19:36):
own lens, which is the natural world, spirituality, you know,
the mental body, emotional body, you know, physical bodies, spiritual body.
I always have these understandings, how that tree is talking
to me, but didn't you see that bird fly by?
And it never really translated to my academic world, right,
(19:56):
it never really is like, oh, I knew that I
would get a good, you know, great on this test
because I saw a butterfly Like that doesn't translate directly.
So I just kept behaving authentically and people started coming
up to me outside of the Navajo nation saying could
you please teach me shamanism? And I'm like, why would
you ask me that? And they kept coming from all
(20:19):
different spaces, and I would be recognized by tribes down
in South South America. Oh you're shaman, you're shaman, and
so that's what I say. I never said I am
a shaman. They started calling me that, and until I
stopped behaving like that. Until I'm stopped, I'm not recognized
(20:40):
as that. I will be that for the people. So
it's a calling that I responded to. But yeah, it
would be a medicine person. That's why I call myself
a medicine person. Right, so very interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yet, let's get this out of the way. How did
you come up in the Novajo community. Were you surrounded
or identified as somebody who was sensitive to the shadow
work and considered a medicine woman or did you kind
of like say, you know what, I kind of like that,
(21:15):
I have an affinia, I have an affiliation. I have
a natural awareness of people who are distressed.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I love this question. So back to my father. His
father is Uh was shaman medicine man oh, and his
spirit was that of the crow, the raven which basically,
if you want to get a picture of that in
your mind, envision a Novajo man dancing around a fire
(21:48):
with a blanket, and the way that he is dancing
mimics the crow and the flight and the understanding he
embodies that, which is why I am granddaughter crow to
honor my ground father, because I hold his spirit now
it jumped over. So my dad also a holy man.
He was a holy man when he walked to this earth.
(22:10):
But he found his holiness in the Christianized God and
the Abrahamic religions. And I think a lot of that
was explained through the boarding school and things. Yet still
holy man, different structure, holy man, nonetheless. So my father,
you know, I was raised on the Navajo reservation, or
(22:32):
I was born there, and then I came up to Denver.
My family came up to Denver, and my father had
a church called the Christian Indian Center, and he was
the pastor at this church, and so he would preach
in Navajo the Christianized view or perspective of you know,
(22:53):
spirituality and that or religion or whatever you want to
call it, and to a noveljo audience. And so I
was there his youngest daughter and the way that I
behaved was a taboo, a little taboo. I definitely was
called out to be highly sensitive, wise or whatever. They
(23:20):
would say, whyse beyond your ears or whatever they would say,
or oh you have a spirit with you or whatever.
This was. So I was raised to be a spiritual leader.
They thought it would be under the Christianized faith. But
what I did was long story short. I decided to
leap frog back to my DNA into my DNA, and
(23:43):
I started listening to myself and talking to my grandfather's
spirit through trance work, et cetera, shamanistic journeying and come up.
So to answer your question, I definitely was unique. I
didn't choose the show The Crow and the Raven is shadow.
(24:04):
It's taboo. So am I. So yeah, this is my jam.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
This is where I love that. Hey, I'm curious, how
do we know when we have trauma? How do we
identify If somebody is working all the time, they have
a family life, and and they're not sure, how do
they identify? What are some of the signs or or signposts.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, that's a great question because there are many. But
what I'll try to do is give some common examples.
One common example would be to check in with yourself,
meaning do a body scan, Like take your consciousness that's
(24:53):
flying all across the universe, going into books and everything,
and bring it into your body and feel your feet
are they hot? Are they cold? Feel your knees, are
they sore? Are they agile? Feel your backbone is it tired?
Is it strong? Feel inside and know that you are here.
(25:15):
And so when you do that a few times, you
get to know what's here. Now, when you get to
know how it feels to be what I'll call embodied
or body conscious or body scanning, that actually your body
is going to tell you because it holds all trauma.
Your body is your map to everything that you've experienced
(25:40):
from like a somatic experience. You can look at it
through this lens. And this is how I view it,
is that all trauma is held within the physical body,
even if it's DNA trauma or historical trauma, and it's
still in your body. And so when you do a
body scan and you just want to escape, don't feel
(26:00):
safe in your body. I don't want to be in
my body right now. This is that you would call
that a trigger. You were triggered, so you walk into
a room and you feel odd and then something hits you.
You don't have to completely understand it. But this feeling
of I'm I feel like I just kind of am
(26:20):
not embodied. I feel like I'm hovering. That is a
number one indicator of understanding that therein lies a trigger.
You were triggered. Now what triggered you? All of that
kind of stuff that gets really scary unless you're in
a safe place to explore. And but that would be
a good good way. And triggers don't have to be like, oh,
(26:45):
there was this monster. Triggers could be something as simple
as I was hurt by a dog. Dogs scare my body.
Uh yeah, I see a dog, I want out, I fight, flight, freeze,
I wanna trauma. That those are those are natural indicators,
(27:06):
and so they come out in each person's lived experience
or life differently, but they're all signaling the same thing.
I am not comfortable in my body.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah. You brought up something that you feature in the book,
which is ancestral trauma, and this is one that is
kind of in the vogue right now, which is people
of color, people of certain races, and you even talk
about DNA trauma. Give us a sense of what that is,
(27:37):
because that's a real important area to work with, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
It's very important because it's the most unseen right now.
You don't consider you think most people when they do
shadow work, they're like, oh, maybe it's all the way
back to the womb and then we kind of stop there.
But what I'm trying to do, but in certain groups,
But what I'm I'm trying to do is say there
is a whole nother curiosity exploration of what we are
(28:07):
now calling DNA trauma historical trauma. And I didn't really
understand that until it happened to me, Cliff, when I
was in a room with an individual. My body just
started shaking, and I was like, why am I nervous?
(28:28):
I'm not a nervous person. I'm very curious. I enjoy
meeting people, you know. And I'm like, I'm nervous and
I'm like, oh my mouth is I'm thirsty, And I'm like,
what is going on with me? Am I cold? Like?
Should I put on a coat? Why is my body
responding this way? That's how disconnected. I could not find
an explanation until he started talking telling me about his
(28:54):
ideology that natives, especially not he is here to save
from their savage ways with his nonprofit. Oh even saying
that now, I'm like, it hurts my being, and I
(29:16):
at that moment was like, oh, well, I'm busy, let's go,
you know. And I and I exited that situation, and
I was it took me like two hours to really
get a hold of myself inside my physical body, Like,
I didn't know why that triggered me. I didn't know.
(29:36):
I knew what he said, I knew that my history
is Navajo, but I didn't understand why I was having
a visceral response. And so in my exploration of that,
I realized the best way that I can explain it
is if you look at my nose, I have a
Navajo nose. If you look at my eyes, they are deep,
(30:00):
dark Native eyes, high cheekbones, etc. So if my bone
structure and my physical makeup actually comes out as Novljo
in my body, why of course wouldn't it hold both
the beauty as well as the trauma.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
with my guest today, granddaughter Crow, discussing her newly released book,
Shamanism and Your Shadow will be right back. My guest
(31:22):
today is Granddaughter Crow. She is a Navajo medicine woman,
and she is discussing her newest book, Shamanism and Your Shadow.
So you're you're recognizing a reaction you're having to someone
(31:43):
perhaps saying something, perhaps looking at you and having a
body gesture that's maybe repulsed or whatever, and that's triggering something.
How do you how do you work on that? I
was thinking about my situation, of course. Uh, my grandfather
and his people immigrated from Germany in nineteen twelve, and
(32:08):
I think he talks a little bit about the backlash.
He came to California and worked in the Central California,
but he was treated his family was treated very very poorly.
When we think about our ancestors like that, that comes
through in a way, doesn't it. And so how do
(32:30):
we go about healing and something like that? Do we say?
Do we go into a vision quest a many vision
quests and look at our grandparents and say, I understand
where you're with that's you know, and I'm guessing this
is where the trauma is or where the shadow is.
How do we go about working on that.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well. That is actually a brilliant segue to like the
first half of Shamanism and Shadow is really like explanation
around what is the shadow seen through psychology, the terms
with Carl Young and everything and this DNA history and
historical trauma, and then it kind of gets into so
(33:10):
now what do we do right? So it's not one
size fits all explanation, but it is that the natural
world can help you because the natural world has experienced volcanoes,
you know, tsunamis, the natural world has earthquakes. The natural
(33:33):
world has also experienced trauma. If you look at the
animal kingdom within the natural world, how does a crow
or a raven like because it holds such a taboo,
you know, connotation in so many legends and lores, and
(33:56):
I mean they eat trash, they eat roadkills, so I
get it. Yeah, they're kind of spooky, you know, and
and kind of whoa you know. But at the end
of the day, these are the personalities I will call them.
These are the wisdom keepers, the animals mother Earth. And
(34:20):
when you find one to connect with to be able
to release your trauma or work through it, it's a
it's a very interesting relationship. Now, what does that look
like in like in like today. So let's say that
you are looking at uh, you know, the trauma from
(34:41):
your you know, nineteen twelve. They came over here, they
spent all of their money to come to the land
of milk and honey. Right, that's what they did, right,
And then they are like, I believe in the American dream,
I'm going to build up I'm going to do this.
And yet they were chastised as, oh, you're less than
in all of that. So how do you deal with that? Actually,
(35:03):
I would say the owl. I would say work with
the owl, because the owl is able to see in
the night. It's nocturnal, okay, the night being the subconscious
mind and the unseen world the unknown world. So by
(35:26):
its nature it shows us I will perceive the owl
perceives into the unknown, into the subconscious if you allow
it or understand it. And then the owl will also say,
but your ancestors have been around, and then it'll show
you if you if you kind of focus on the owl,
(35:49):
and then I do have guided meditations in the book
that may help with us. Then you kind of listen
to the guided meditation, which actually is on my YouTube channel.
My husband read all of them, so you don't have
to like record your own. You can just listen to
it at Granddaughter Crow on YouTube and so all of
those are there, and you could listen to the meditation
(36:11):
and it takes you through a visualization. You don't have
to be like I don't I've never done this before.
You just it takes you through a visualization a story,
if you will, where you are the main character and
you're walking through a certain landscape and then you see
an owl and then right there by that time, you're
(36:31):
kind of like the owl and you are now connected.
And then after this whole meditation is basically like an ingress,
a portal away for you to start exploring. And then
you come out of that and you start journaling what
did you see, what did you feel in that? What
did the owl say to you? How did it say
(36:52):
it to you? And maybe go back a few times
and go, Okay, now I really want to I met
the owl. Now I want to talk to the owl
about my grandfather, you know, in California, and did he
experience trauma? And how can I work with that? And
you kind of go back with owl and things will
come up within you. I trust the natural world. I
(37:17):
trust the organic nature that even lies within each of us.
And if you sit in silence long enough, your truth
will come to the forefront. Maybe your grandfather will say, yeah,
but in a way I understand it, because here I am,
and they got here first, and now they're trying to
(37:40):
use me as a stepping stone to elevate themselves. It
really had nothing to do with me. It had to
do with them or whatever. These wisdoms will start coming up.
And when you embody this wisdom and truly begin to
understand with that owl, oh, the lay of the land,
then all of a sudden you'll get a new perspective,
(38:01):
a higher perspective, because it's an owl and it flies
above a bird's eye view around it, so that you're
not locked in the woods with it, feeling your own
feelings and understanding something you don't know how to understand
because you don't know the stories. You see it from
a bird's eye view, and then you're able to kind
of go in there and the wisdom will come forth.
(38:22):
And sometimes I really want to say this, Cliff, Sometimes
the wisdom doesn't make sense to the mental realm, but
your body it makes sense. To your body. It makes
sense to your emotional state. You begin to go, oh,
I don't know what just happened. I feel relaxed. I'm
going to throw in something that my dad used to say.
(38:44):
We talked so intelligently about our confusions, but when you
do you know what, you truly know. What he was
saying is we have all of these words and we
are trying to put it in our mental realm. Yeah,
but did you embody?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
It?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Does your body know what you know? And so this
book really helps with the embodiment, which is that shamanistic aspect. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Part two gets into the animal spirits, which is what
you ask people to identify. I love the aspect of
choosing four. You have four helpers. You have the raven,
the snake, the owl, and the wolf. You could could
have gone crazy and got into insects and everything, and
I really don't like that because then you're kind of confused.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Why did you.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Choose these four spirits as helpers? Well, thing, you just
talked about the owl, so we understand the owl, but
what about because it makes it so much easier to
really begin working. You can find your spirit helper and
move forward. But why choose those four.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, one could say that I chose the another could
say that they chose me. Another say that to Yeah,
to my shamanistic mind, they made the most sense. So
and here's why. So the raven taboo just by the
way that it looks and what it does. It's got
(40:17):
this dark cloak right spooky and if you think about it,
like in the media, usually if you're watching a movie
or something like that and you go into the dark
you know house, the haunted house, or you go into
a graveyard, you'll hear inevitably, you know, crows cawing in
(40:38):
the background, because it's associated with spooky and taboo and scary,
and so is the shadow. It is associated with spooky
and taboo and death and all of these things. So
the crow was a natural one. It's like, what if
the crow was my shaman? What if the crow was
my guide? What if the crow is my teacher and
I could let it guide me through the spookiness. And
(41:03):
then we get into the snake. Well, once again, snakes
are taboo all of a sudden, you know, and the
Abrahamic religions you're looking at, well that's the you know,
the serpent is Satan perceiving the world, and so it
has this negative connotation and yet in its in its
(41:26):
own natural organic being, it has this ability to shed.
And maybe that's what we need to do with the shadow.
We need to shed. Maybe the old story that we
were telling ourselves to comfort ourselves because we weren't ready
to do this shadow work. We shed, And so the
(41:47):
snake actually teaches us how to shed our skin. And
then we just talked about the owl, and so all
go into the wolf. The wolf. Oh my goodness, talk
about taboo, the big bad wall. I mean, come on,
he you know, tried to gobble up red riding hood.
What else did he do? He blew a house down,
(42:08):
you know. I mean there's even in our psyche, the
stories that we even have here and across the globe.
I'm sure that there are different stories. But the wolf
is very taboo because you've got the big bad Wolf.
So if these four are taboo, the raven and the
snake and the owl and you know, and the wolf
(42:29):
and the shadow is taboo and granddaughter Crow's taboo, well
it's a perfect match. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
You know, Yeah, I love it. And there's also something
about the energy behind an animal totem that takes us
to the most visceral, raw state of humanity.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Right, Yes, absolutely, talk.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
About animal rawness, animal consciousness.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, so the animals have wisdom. I mean seriously, there
are many of them that have been here long before
us and probably will be here long after us, depending
on your belief system. Another show. Right, But at the
end of the day, you know, it's kind of this.
(43:17):
They don't confuse themselves with pontification of intellectualizing things that
they do not understand. That is a very human thing,
and it's a very beautiful thing. I'm not trying to
knock it. It's our exploration, it's our curiosity. It's why
we do research and grow. But they are running on
(43:38):
the basic you know, I am there present, right, Animals
are present. I don't sit there and look at my
cat and go oh are you thinking about yesterday? Or
my dog and go oh, are you wondering what's going
on tomorrow? They're present, They're embodied, and I think that
(43:59):
that's part of the wisdom that they continuously carry that
we can remember in ourselves. Maybe I can be present
like my cat, like my dog.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I like that. Yeah, you're more earth centered and you
kind of leave technology and you come back to the core,
you know, earth based functionality. I want to talk a
little bit about the processes that you feature in the book,
and I want if you could talk about the four,
(44:30):
which is recognize, acknowledge, understand, and respect. And I really
like those because it brings in the full spectrum of
the shadow itself being trauma. And we just talked recently
about the recognition of a trauma process, you know, and
(44:54):
one of the big ones. Let's talk about one and
work through it. If you wouldn't mind somebody who is
feeling depressed always and can't get out of that stage.
They're always kind of down. You know, life is the pits.
I can't get out of the situation, and it can
go across the board. My job, I hate my job,
(45:15):
I hate my relationship. I never have any money, you
know what I mean. So let's talk about the four
as you call them, the processes.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, so let's talk exactly to that person. If I
were speaking with that person as a medicine person, I
would say, do you recognize that you are depressed? Period? Yes? Okay,
(45:46):
let's not assign a story. Let's not assign a story.
Let's not try to explain it, defend it, da da
da da da, create a story so that it's acceptable
or whatever. Let's just recognize that first step. Recognize it. Now.
Let's not say because in creating stories, I'm depressed because
(46:09):
my job sucks, I'm depressed because this person. I'm depressed
because of my money. Let's take away everybody else and
just go, how is your internal system responding to this
external pressure. Acknowledge that your internal system is responding to
(46:31):
the external pressure in this way. I know that that
I hope I didn't lose anybody there. So it's basically
external pressure internal reality. When we're working on the internal world,
we need to not only recognize I'm depressed, but acknowledge
that I am depressed because of my external world. And
(46:54):
that's all I'll say. I'm not going to discount it.
So it's an acknowledgment of.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
The other thing I just mentioned real quickly is that
the recognition is huge because you may come in to
work with you as a medicine person and go, I
don't know what my problem is. I don't I mean,
I just feel like crap all the time. That's right,
And you will say, well, you'll probably ask some questions
and get to the heart of it. But the recognition
(47:21):
is huge, isn't it. It's the foundation to begin working
on relieving and identifying the shadow.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
How can you solve a problem If you can't identify
the problem, all of the answers might be around you.
But until you I identify what you're actually trying to
work on or solve your question. If you can't identify
the question, how can you get the answer? So, yes,
recognition and acknowledgment are huge. So I guess a simpler
(47:50):
way would say I am depressed, and then it's like,
who is depressed? I am? I acknowledge that I am depressed, Okay,
and now you are in a state great, uncomfortable, horrible.
We got it. Let's move from here. It's a tense muscle,
it's an experience, it's a collision, it's a trauma, it's
(48:13):
whatever it is. And you know what I'm going to
do with that. I am not gonna shame you for that.
I'm going to recognize it as a part of your life,
your lived experience. Maybe you're a warrior, maybe you're a
misunderstand stood genius. Maybe you are a creative soul living
in a logical world. Let's acknowledge that it's also organic,
(48:34):
that it's okay, And then you go into the understanding
and that's why I'm like, then you start beginning to
explore why do I have this internal reaction towards an
external experience? What am I trying to do here? What
is that understanding? And that was in brief kind of
(48:55):
what we did with the owl, and then the final
one is kind of like, well, when I understand why
I'm acting this way, it really loosens me up. I'm like, WHOA,
there's a reason. I'm not just all messed up. I'm
not just prone to depression. Maybe there is a reason.
And then all of a sudden, you know, it's just
(49:18):
like and of course, you know some people are prone
to depression, and all of that always work with, you know,
the medical field, and this is not to you know,
this is to partner with anything else that you're doing.
And then you go into the wolf or the I'm sorry,
the respect Now I respect myself, I respect my shadow.
(49:43):
I understand, I recognize it, I understand where it came from.
And I look as a wolf or through the eyes
of a wolf, and the wolf teaches me we're in
a pack. I'm not the only one. Everybody else has
a shaf shaw. And this acceptance in that kind of
(50:04):
a way actually helps you to accept and relax the body.
So it's like I actually do have a pain. I
acknowledge it, I understand where it comes from, and I
understand it, and now I actually find some self love
and I accept what this is. And it actually causes
(50:25):
you to relax more into your authenticity versus a reactive
mind of reacting to shadow or letting the shadow just
react for you because you're triggered and you don't know
how to You actually pull in the shadow, recognize it,
and you can come forth.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
with my guest today, granddaughter Crow, discussing her newest book Shamanism,
and your shadow will return to you shortly. We're looking
(51:43):
at the shadow, which is also considered trauma from a
shamanistic point of view, how indigenous people dealt with and
continue to work with trauma and animal totems. So you're
saying that by recognizing it, you gain power and you
(52:07):
can function because you're saying, Okay, this is what's affecting me.
I recognize this as my depression, and what next? What
are the processes to begin release? Do we release it?
Some people are chronically depressed, though, so I mean.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yet not yet. I think that would be something preemptive.
I think that the second thing would be to shed
your old understanding of what does that mean? So when
I say that, I mean the world we have experiences.
What we're doing is experiencing phenomenon. What we do with
(52:48):
this phenomenon, this intake is we create a story or
meaning around it. So I would kind of explore just
a little bit about are you what meaning are you
putting behind you're depressed m They're like, well what do
you mean? And I'm like, well, what does what does
that mean? And then you start understanding, Oh, well, it
(53:10):
makes me feel like less of a human being. It
makes me feel like I am the bad guy. It
makes me feel like I am partue. Oh now that's
what we need to release. Yeah, those are the things
that we need to release. You've got pressure and the
story and the meaning, and so through the recognition, it's
a it's a process with the snake of what do
(53:31):
I hold on to and what do I let go of?
And what I let go of is my belief system
or lived story or my meaning around what this is.
So maybe I can play with it a little bit
more and understand. I'm just a really serious person that
is an introvert and all of a sudden there's there's
a different and when you see that little light, all
(53:53):
of a sudden, you just start blossoping. It's blossoming, yeah,
naturally and organically, just like the natural world. Does I
know that this is really hard to solidify and you know,
an our show, but it's it's a process and it's
beautiful it, you know, just really quickly. The raven is
(54:13):
there to help you recognize because it sees everything. It's
very alert. The snake is there to help you with
that acknowledgment and releasing stories around it. The owl is
there to help you deeper understand, and the wolf is
there to help you understand that, yeah, you're part of
(54:35):
a tribe. We all got a shadow, we all got
something going on, you know, So.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
With it with obviously depression is just one trauma. How
do we integrate or how do we choose the animal
as the spirit helper you mentioned ow. I have an
affinity to owls. Everywhere I go I hear owls. I
hear them at night. They I live out kind of
(55:00):
in the country. They're close to where I live. I
just fixated on owls. I think they're a major helper
in my life. But it's maybe only be appropriate for
certain health issues or certain crises. How do we know
which is the best helper in a certain situation?
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Love that? So the book is kind of laid out
in a four step process so that you get to
explore one part with the raven, and then as you
read the next chapter, you're exploring things through the perspective
of the snake, and you're exploring things through the perspective
of the owl and the wolf, and inevitably, like I
literally have received feedback that's like, I have an affinity.
(55:49):
I love these animals. But man, that raven has stayed
with me. And I'm dreaming about the raven and I'm
working with the and I remember when I was a
little girl, a raven landed on my head and it was,
you know, all of these beauties, and so one probably
will stand out more. I think that it's and I'll
(56:13):
be very I'll just talk to you as a shaman.
We think that we are choosing them, when in fact
they are choosing us. Very good, Yeah, that owl, I
don't get to see them all the time. If you
see them, they let you see it. Wow, they saw
you before you saw it. They were highly aware, they
(56:36):
knew you were there, and yet they allowed you and
they and they felt you, and they allowed you to
see it. And so that could be a stronger guide
for you to work through, you know, just that connectivity
around what are the very basic what are the attributes
(56:56):
like study owls. Find out how they turn their head,
find out how they see, find out how they listen,
find out when they hunt, how they mate, what their
food is. And then to extract those cons and turn
those those literal things and turn them into metaphors around
yourself and go, oh, the owl sees at night into
(57:18):
the unseen. Maybe I need to pay attention to my
subconscious or my dreams, right that kind of uh. Yeah,
and they they explore. And so the beauty around this
is some will say, granddaughter Crow, you're a shaman and
you are giving us a shamanistic approach to the shadow.
Thank you. And in truth, if you read that book
Deep enough. I actually am saying, let me introduce you
(57:40):
to the shaman of the raven. Let me introduce you
to a snake shaman. Let me introduce you to the
owl shaman, the pure energy, the wolf shaman.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah. I love that. One of the things that you
bring up in the book is that you become I
think you're at us to not maybe not asking us,
but suggesting becoming your own shaman in a way and
kind of like not that you're going to go and
do sweat lodges and all that kind of stuff, but
(58:13):
you kind of become self diagnostic in a way. You
kind of can recognize when you have issues and processing
in more of a helpful as you call it, natural
a natural world focal point. Talk a little bit about
the shaman and becoming the shaman.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Love that. So I take my liberties and I do
approach this topic with the heightened awareness and sensitivity of
you know, appropriation, appreciation, and rage. Sure, all of that
kind of stuff. I understand that. But what I am
saying is you are you are your own healer. I
(58:57):
am not here as a shaman to heal you. I
here to walk with you on your path to your
healing and your healing is as individual as you are,
and so take as you move through this, may I
empower you to trust yourself, begin to explore yourself, get
(59:18):
to know yourself, and actually know that you have an
internal healer, just like the natural world does. The natural
world heals itself, and we are a part of the
natural world and we have that too, as long as
we don't get in our own way.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah. I love that the books called Shamanism and Your
Shadow using animal guys to explore and heal your inner self.
My guest today's been granddaughter Crow. As we conclude, Joy,
can you give us some examples case studies of people
you've worked with and perhaps obviously you don't want to
(59:56):
give up their names, but some specific types of traumas
they have been dealing with.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Absolutely. So one that I find was really interesting is
she is a teacher, So she's an educator and she
was teaching I think high school or middle school, which
is very disruptive because you've got a lot of you know,
(01:00:23):
young kids trying to explore and they don't know what
they're doing, and their brain is developed and they're they're
not sensitive, and you know, some of them are really sensitive.
So there's a whole lay of the land, and she
ended up moving away from teaching and kind of hiding.
And then actually, I talked to a lot of teachers.
So if you're listening and you're a teacher, I'm not
(01:00:44):
calling you out. I'm not calling you out. But she
ended out disconnecting from her internal teacher because she related
teaching to overstimulation and trauma, and so it was very subtle,
but it literally made her change her career. And so
(01:01:07):
in the book, as she was reading through the book,
and she was going through it and she understood and
everything was great when she got to the wolf, which
actually that spirit totem is right aligned with the teacher
four feet on the ground, teaching, showing showing tribe, showing clarity.
There's some lore that says that the wolve's actually taught
(01:01:28):
man how to live in tribe and community, so they're
are teacher. And when she connected with oh, I can
connect with the wolf. I understand the wolf. I embody
the wolf. I remember who I am. I'm teacher, and
that was an experience. I don't want to teach them,
but I still am teacher. So she re embodied instead
(01:01:49):
of getting a rid of an aspect of self. It was,
so it's really really beautiful, and each one of these,
I mean, I haven't come across somebody who's like, hey, daughter, Crow,
I got nothing, I got nothing out of your book.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Exactly a challenge.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, great, But if I would, I would say, well,
then it is that's the wrong classroom for you. Go
pick it up some other time, or maybe you need
another teacher, because when you actually, if you are called,
which means you don't need like a big sign or
a lightning bolt. If you are curious about this, there's
something that's calling you. And I don't think it's the book.
(01:02:30):
I think it's your own shadow saying explore me, explore me,
explore me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Can you give us an
example of somebody who has crippling trauma to the point
where they're not able to function? You rarely, I mean
not rarely. We're in the when you get to these
big cities, people are just overwhelmed and they are discombobulated
(01:02:56):
to the point where they're barely functioning.
Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Yeah. I would work with this woman, beautiful. She used
to be a reverend, a healer. She'd worked hardcore in
social justice with just some really hard things in life,
you know, very very hard parts about the world. And
(01:03:23):
she gave herself to this practice and it ended out
hitting her nervous systems so hard that she locked herself away.
She ordered groceries, but she found me. But she found
me so she could still function. And she asked me,
I feel safe with you, Will you come to my house?
(01:03:48):
And I showed up as me understanding that I was
walking into somebody who has been highly triggered, and so
I'm not gonna have an agenda. I'm here to honor
and love. And through the process it was really interesting
because through her trauma, this dehabilitating trauma, actually caused her
(01:04:13):
to forget who she is what she likes. So I said,
your first assignment is to go to the next time
you go to the grocery store, because she started shopping.
She started getting out there. I said, pick something that
you like. What do you like? And she was like,
(01:04:34):
I don't know what I like.
Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Like.
Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
I get these foods because they're healthy for me. I'm like, yeah,
but what do you like? Next time I see you,
tell me one thing that you like. And so she
came back. Granddaughter Crow, I like strawberry ice cream. And
I was like, oh, awesome, perfect, that's that recognition, right,
And so then I go and so then I go,
did you buy it? Well, no, granddaughter Crow, I didn't
(01:04:59):
buy it. Oh okay, your next assignment is to buy
something that you like. So it really was this process
that she had so much trauma that she forgot wow,
who she was and what she enjoyed. And the path
out of that was more like the evolution of a butterfly,
where she began to remember who and what she is.
(01:05:22):
And so that's part of the way that I perceive
things is that trauma back to the beginning, trauma is
kind of like, oh, you're limping. What's that about? You know,
why are you limping? Emotionally? Mentally like why are you physically? Mentally?
Why are you limping? And then the exploration into that
(01:05:43):
and not seeing I don't approach people like you're limping,
You're less than you. God's punishing you. But da da
d D. I'm kind like, I'm curious about your limp.
I want to know your limp. I want to understand
your limp. I'm not here as superior to your limp.
I'm not inferior or to your limp. I am with
your limp, limp talk to me, and then all of
(01:06:04):
a sudden, when that limp releases, almost like a tight
and muscle, the rest of the person starts emerging in
their authenticity. And I would bet I haven't talked to
her in probably a decade, but I would bet my
fingers are crossed that she's still enjoying some strawberry ice cream.
Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Funny, funny, can you mention what her her identified trauma was?
Was it an abusive family life or something?
Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I don't know what we'll cut out, but it was
sex trafficking.
Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Oh okay, yeah, that's pretty traumatic.
Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Joy.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Who did you write this book for? Who would you
if you were to identify someone who would pick it
up at the store? Who would that person be?
Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I love that because and I love that I mean
spoken from author writer to author writer, because that's exactly
what we do. Like who am I writing this for?
I'm writing it. Yeah, I'm writing it for the individual
who's curious to know more about themselves and who just
(01:07:10):
loves animals and curious the curious mind. And it's funny
because sometimes what will happen, you know, And I'll just
be honest here, I'll get an email from or even
a message you know through my DMS saying wow, this
happened because of your book. I don't know these people,
(01:07:30):
and I feel I wrote this book for you. Oh right,
So I wrote it for whoever you know. I wrote
it for the exploratory mind. I wrote it for the
person who wants to do some self knowledge, wants to
become their authenticity, and is working through things that they
maybe don't have time to go to a psychologist, or
(01:07:52):
maybe their psychologist is telling them read this book, because
some psychologists are now starting to go Okay, I can't
get through to you or your trauma. Go talk to
the owl. You know. Yeah, I've had that too. So
it really is. I don't know if that answers it,
but it really is that explored. I wrote it for
the person who is ready to read it, the curious soul,
(01:08:15):
and whatever you get out of it is completely personal
and up to you, and I hope that you find
more of you in the book, more of who you are,
authentically fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
You have a website which is Granddaughtercrow dot com. Where
else are you? You have a YouTube channel with video.
Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Yeah, so if you remember Granddaughter Crow, you and Google
it you'll see where I'm at. I've got the website
which gives all of my books, my podcast, I teach,
I do events, and I give one on one sessions
as well. So if you're working through this book and
you're just like, Okay, I really need to talk to
(01:08:57):
Granddaughter Crow because this happened is normal, you know, or whatever,
you can book with me online and then Granddaughter Crow
at YouTube, which is where I really house my podcast,
even though it's wherever you get your podcasts, Instagram, whatever,
at Granddaughter Crow. So just remember Granddaughter Crow and whichever
way you like to reach out would be.
Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
I bet you have a podcast, Granddaughter Crow.
Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Huh, well, it's on my Granddaughter Crow channel. My podcast
is actually called Belief, Being and Beyond, which means yeah,
which means that whatever we believe in constitutes how our being.
This is how we behave in the world. But there's
always something more. So I love bringing great people to
great people with different belief systems that say our curious
(01:09:43):
minds and so that we can explore from our own
home without having to hunt down somebody who has a
belief system life shamanism and go I'm afraid and I
don't know what to ask you, so I just kind
of give you guys a podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Yeah, wonderful. Hey, much success on this book, and I
really enjoyed it and great having you on the program.
Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
It's been my honor and my pleasure. And may the
owls be with you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Thank you. You know, there's something to be said with
regards to simplicity, and this book is very, very basic.
It's very easy to read. It's not overthought and expanded
to the point where you're taking fifty pages to explain
a single concept. It's very straightforward, and that's what I
(01:10:36):
really like about it. It's very powerful. And I'm still
surprised that there's four animal totems to work with, four
energies to work with. Maybe it's because one of my
favorites is the owl. We talked about the owl. But
when you're focusing on trauma release, these four power animals
(01:10:59):
or sacred animal energies come into play, and she describes
them quite elegantly in this book. It's really rare shamanism
and your Shadow is the title.
Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Now.
Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
The other thing that is funny, She's got a book
coming out in the fall that talks about being your
own shaman and not relying on psychedelics. And this is
something that I'm faced with right now, with so much
pressure to use ayahuasca, to use DMT, to use piote,
and I'm hesitant. And here's somebody who's written books on cannabis.
Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
And you know, when I had this cardiac thing, this
heart attack, it's simply changed my entire physiology, but also
puts me in a realm where I have to be
careful in taking psychedelics. I have to be careful in
exposing my physiology to powerful stimulants. You know, I don't
(01:12:00):
drink regular coffee anymore. I drink decaf. I don't use
artificial caffeine in the form of brain enhancers. I use
lions made drops, and I have a supplementation that is
pretty much minerals and vitamins. I don't use stimulants because
(01:12:22):
it affects me, and so I have to be really,
really careful. And she's coming up with a book on
being your own shaman. I love that idea, I really do,
because I think we're in a place within revolution where
we can become our own shaman, our own demn I God.
(01:12:44):
For those of you who are religious, that doesn't mean
that you turn into God. It means that you are
part of God. And I think, you know, a lot
of religions say that as a soul, perhaps modern religion,
but as a soul we have you know, we have
a lot of self awareness, we have a lot of energy,
we have a lot of ability that we don't tap,
(01:13:08):
which can be godlike. So anyhow, check out the book.
It just came out, Shamanism and Your Shadow, and it
was fun having her on the show. I'm looking forward
to talking to her again. Oh yeah, by the way,
it's on Amazon. You can see it on Amazon. Hey,
(01:13:28):
if you're enjoying Earth Ancients and Destiny and any of
the other podcasts that we produce, please consider becoming a
subscriber to Patreon for as little as five dollars a month.
You can support the work we do here on this
podcast and it is appreciated. Five ten, fifteen, even twenty
dollars a month is a huge help and supports the
(01:13:50):
work we do each week on these podcasts. To become
a subscriber, go to Patreon, that's pa t R e
O N dot com, Forward slash Earth Ancients and subscribe.
And we got a ton of guests for you. I
think we're now up to almost forty books in our
digital library that you can download in the comfort of
(01:14:13):
your home. These are full, illustrated, full books. They've just
been digitized for easy convenience, easy distribution. And I think
I mentioned we've had a couple of people download almost
the full library, which is a lot of books, but
some of the top A listeners are in there. We
got some new upcoming authors and there's a lot of
(01:14:34):
really good materials. So again, to become a subscriber of
Earth Ancients, go to Patreon dot com forward slash Earth Ancients.
All right, that's it for this program. I want to
tak my guest today, granddaughter Crow, coming to us from Colorado.
As always, the team of Gail tour, Mark Foster and
(01:14:55):
Feya in Pakistan. You guys rock all right, take care
of me well and we will talk to you next time.
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