Gen Muir On Catching Your Toddler On The Emotional Climb

Toothbrushing is a hostage situation. Getting dressed is a full-body workout. And don’t even mention the wrong coloured cup. If your three-nager is melting down 87 times a day, this episode is your permission slip to exhale.

Kee and Kelly are joined by the oracle herself, Gen Muir, to help us make sense of the chaos. From emotional “climbs” to why the whinging gets under our skin (spoiler: it’s about us too), Gen explains what’s actually normal and how to set boundaries without setting fire to your own sanity. 

LINKS TO EVERYTHING MENTIONED

How To Cope With Unhinged Toddlers

"Little People, Big Feelings" - Gen Muir

 

HOSTS & PRODUCERS

Kelly McCarren ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@kelly_mccarren⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Kee Reece Searles ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@keereece⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

 

AUDIO PRODUCTION

Madeline Joannou - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Mylk Media⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land we're recording
on today.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Often what you're experiencing as really triggering and really hard
says more about what you're struggling with than what's sort
of really going on with your child.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Hello.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hello, and welcome back to Eat Sleep Repeat, your favorite
unhitch podcast, all about the madness of this motherhood and
everything in between. I'm Kirisels, I'm.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
Kelly mccaren, and we have such a treat for you
today because we have the delightful Oracle as I refer
to her, Gen Mure back on the pod, and she's
going to help us deal with our three year olds,
three ages and the absolute theatrics they decide to perform
fifty seven times a day.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
We loved Jen so much, so so much, and so
did everyone who listened to the last episode that we
had her on. We got so much feed back, so
we'll link that in the show notes in case you
missed it. But first, as always, it's peak and pit
time when we bring you the very very high and
the very very low from our weeks. Get ready, yeah, queen,

(01:13):
everything the shit, So my pitch.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
We always start with our pitch, then we finish on
a peak, so it's not too grim. Yeah, the tooth
brushing battle is on another level. And had his teeth
checked it. I'm talking about learning, by the way, In
case that wasn't clear, I'm not talking about my own
tooth brushing battle or Luke's or the cats or they
technically that it has told us to do the cats

(01:37):
and I'm like, okay, that simply will not be happening much.
They said that we need to be doing it twice
a day. Do I lie to Luke and tell him
that I do it in the morning? Yes? What Luke's like,
you have to be doing it in the morning as well?
And I tell him that I am. I'm not okay
because it's one battle I just don't want to do
in the morning because it's so hard. Is he winning? Yes,

(01:59):
thank goodness, Luke, listen to this pod. You can't admit
anything on this pod because Charlie's a listener. Luke is
not so through, does not listen. Have I ever brushed
Lenny's teeth in the morning?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Not once? Okay?

Speaker 4 (02:12):
Do I completely lie to my husband when he asks me?
He says, did we brush our teeth this morning? I
say yes, I mean me, So you're not lying, you're
just really omitting the truth, if you will, Little white lives.
They didn't hurt anyone, because I just can't be bothered
with then the battle of dealing with him. There's enough
battles that I have to deal with, and doing it
at nighttime is bad enough because I'm generally the one

(02:34):
that gets stuck doing it because if Luke does it,
because Luke does it for so long and so aggressively
and will literally like sit on him to get it done,
he hates it. So he will ask me to do
it generally, but he still runs away from me, he
still throws a tantrum. I often still have to tackle him,
holds him down. Sometimes it's a two person job. I've

(02:55):
tried the different toothbrushes that my girlfriend introduced me to,
the one that it's kind of shaped like a mouthguard
with all the little prongs. Oh yes, yes, yes, it's
actually really good. Yeah, I'll link them in the show notes.
You can get them from Amazon. They themselves just like
swivel around.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Then.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
I don't know if the dentist approved better than he
likes the flavor of the toothpaste. It's just the act
of doing it. I've shown him the toothbrush afterwards, and
I've been like, yuck.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
What about the Wiggles song that everyone uses. We've never
had an issue with tooth brushing, but people swear by
the Wiggles toothbrushing?

Speaker 4 (03:28):
How does it go? Because I have a song, do
you want to hear it?

Speaker 1 (03:31):
No?

Speaker 4 (03:31):
Oh? Okay, I sing it as well. Well, I'm brushing
my teeth. We've tried him brushing my teeth while I
do his teeth. We've tried everything.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, try this Wiggles.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
One when you wake up in the morning at a
quarter to one. Oh God, turn it off? Please?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
No, wait, wait, I have fun.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
You brush your teeth, you brush your tea. I feel
like that song is one hundred years old because I
feel like I listen to it.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
When you have a kid, bring up the iPad, let
him watch it and dance and brushes seeth. I reckon,
that's going to do it.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Done.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
I'll give it a go, but I need other hacks
in case that doesn't work. Okay, post, I don't know.
There's nothing wrong with my song anyway. My peak is
that if you had told me five years ago that
I would be doing wholesome shit on the weekend that
doesn't involve kids. But just in general, I would not
believe you.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
I would either.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
I would say ninety percent on my weekends were spent
on the rot, wildly hungover.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, you were at a different phase and stage, and
I feel like this group of friends is really I
don't know, broaden your horizons and stuff.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Yeah, me and my netty friends we went for a
hike and went well watching on a Sunday morning, Hue
and we saw so many, so many down in Cournell
National Park, like down in the Shire. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
they're introducing me to all these places in Sydney. I
didn't know exist. I mean I did know because it's
right where my facialist lives, but I didn't know that
there was a hike there. And I didn't see that

(04:56):
many whales breaching as they migrate up to the warmer seas.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh my god, because it's whale season right now. Oh
my god, that's so exciting.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
About ten fifteen out of the water. I didn't even
count when I just saw them do their little with
the water horses and they exited the water. Yes, that
was so cool. It's such a nice way to spend
with you, because got up early to go and do that.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Who are you when I say early on a normal day.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
When I say that up early, it was eight fifteen.
But that's early for a weekend for sure, for me
who sleeps until eleven most Sundays.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
All right, my yes, oh God. Sometimes you don't want
to talk about your pick because then it just like
drums all the feelings up again. But very sadly we
missed out on our third house. We're in another bidding war,
and yeah, an investor just came in in, swooped on
in and said, and I just thought, well, that's a

(05:57):
bit annoying, because that'd be a lovely family home in
our price range. It was just very upsetting. It was
upsetting because it was so drawn out, and then right
at the end he just threw it down.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
And went, hah hah, I'm rich.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yep, So that was my pit and we're looking our wounds.
The thing is, had we got that house, we would
have been moved in within a month. It was a
very short settlement. So it's that kind of stuff which
is really hard because I feel like we're living in limbo.
And look, our apartment is not bad. It's just there
is no storage and lots of stuff, and it's not ours.

(06:35):
I've done as much as I can to create pockets
of storage, but I can't do anymore. I cannot do anymore.
You can only polish a turd so much. Yeah, all right,
so my peak, let's bring it home. Let's bring in
that positivity. So last week I spoke about the matillium
that I've been taking to increase my Yeah, my milk supply.

(06:59):
That has helped. Maybe the sleep regression ended. I don't know,
but I need to tell the story.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
I don't care about her drowning on milk.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
When the milk came in after taking the matillium, she
was like choking, gagging on the milk. She's fine so much,
She's fine. But I was just like, oh, duh, it
really works, It really does. But look, I don't know.
I don't care what's happened. I only care that I've slept,
and I am wildly less unhinged than I had become

(07:28):
with the sleep deprivation. I just feel rested, which is
a lovely way to be. I don't feel one hundred percent,
of course, because life is just a wild ride that
I'm just kind of hanging on for dear life at
the moment, but it is just really good to have
some sleep and feel somewhat put together.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
More human than you have exactly.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, all right, something else that will make us feel
a little bit more human.

Speaker 4 (07:54):
Our friend how oracle.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Genmy or She's going to be on the pod after
the break to chat about all things tantrums.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Before we get you on the blow. I think it
might be helpful for us to describe our toddler's tantrums
and what they look like, how they manifest, because everyone's
kids does very different things whilst in the midst of one,
and I think it's helpful to hear different perspectives.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yes, so, my lovely daughter rue suits not having tantrums
just yet, although hers are exclusively breast related.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
Breast related. Or Kelly is trying to put me to
sleep before I've had some bosom related that's right.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
So Ruse, who is just turned three in May, whose
are mostly food, fashion, or friend related the three f's.
She obviously wants to eat cake twenty four seven.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
Why can she not have a paddle pop for breakfast? Honestly,
you're a monster.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
She would love to wear crocs every day to daycare,
which happy to do so in the summertime, but dale
when it's six degrees outside, I'd like you to wear
the sneakers that I paid forty five dollars for.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
But could I bring to you an option? Yeah, crocs
and socks.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
We did that. But on the days where it's raining,
that's annoying.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, because you can't play outside.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Just pack some spare socks.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
No, because her feet will.

Speaker 4 (09:19):
Get cold anyway, Okay, I'm a big fan of the
crocks and socks.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
The other thing is like, she obviously loves her friends,
so she never wants the friendship time to end. So
often the tantruments will be kicked off by the fact
that she spent an hour wanting to warm up to
whatever social situation we're in, and then when we want
to leave, she doesn't want to leave because she's had
the best time of her life.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
For the ten minutes, for the time in the warming
period exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
And I'm just like, this is why I said, let's
fast forward to the bit where you're having fun.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
I now it's going to happen exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
So they're kind of all around those main things. But look,
it could be anything. I think we are kind of
past the a hair on my head is moved in
a way that I don't like, something so silly, and
I think we've moved past that. We had a lot
of big feelings around the time Suki was born, and
that was my big like what the f moment of

(10:09):
like the things that would set her off. I would
just be completely confused by now. It's very much related
to something when she doesn't want to kind of conform
to what we're doing and be top what to do.
She just wants her own thing. So that's how we
kind of rock with our tantrums. But what do they
look like? Are they physical? Are they loud?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Like?

Speaker 4 (10:28):
What does she do?

Speaker 1 (10:29):
She isn't as much physical like she was quite physical
definitely around the time Suki was born, more so like
throwing herself on the ground and we'd kind of be like, WHOA,
this is really intense.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
It's kind of funny doing that when they do that, though,
like completely out of the blue, they just all of
a sudden dropped to the floor. Can you think didn't
that hurt? Is that what you're crying about? And I
also just like you look ridiculously you're in a corner,
lying on your stomach, sobbing, as if the world's worst
thing just happened.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Hundred Now they're more like, there's a lot of fake tears,
and if she's with me, it's a lot like, oh, yes,
she's without it's mummy, And because as if they're going
to do something differently, ye does that work? Like he'll
be home soon, But because I know that she's fake crying,
like I'll start laughing and then she'll start laughing, so

(11:20):
we can push through that pretty quickly. But like, it's
just a lot of theatrics, I would say, very dramatic.
And every one of my friends has been like, where
do you reckon? She gets that from? And I'm like,
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
I don't know many toddlers that don't have the theatrics though,
Like even Wezzy, who's the most chill, that's my nephew, chill,
easy going kid. Oh he will throw it down sometimes.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, we often, but he can. He's got it in him.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
I feel like every kid does is.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Len physical, theatrical.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
All of the above. He does have real tears, which
is both heartbreaking but equally funny though, because it's like, oh,
to you, this really is the worst thing in the world.
But I just said, you couldn't have an ice cream.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I know, you know that the chokehold ice creams
have on toddlers. I swear the fact.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
That I've turned into my parent, I will never use
food as a reward. I always said, you don't get
an ice block if you haven't eaten your dinner. Go
and eat something for dinner if you want an ice block.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I wanted to ask Jen, like, how bad is it
to bribe? And but I was like, I'm not ready
for her answer yet.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
Same because if I don't have bribes, as I've mentioned before,
I have the bribery box. Oh yeah, and it mostly works.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
You've got to have something, I think honestly, she would say,
you need to tap into it sometimes.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Maybe not as often as we do though.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, but she doesn't need to know the frequency to
move on from that.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
Yeah all right, she just needs to feel about the box.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah yeah, yeah, give that to yourself, Give to yourself. Okay, Well,
enough about our silly little toddlers. You'll hear more about
them later. Let's get Jen on a quick recap. If
you don't know who she is, Jen found it connected parenting.
She is an obstetric social worker, parent educator, and mum
to four boys with a passion for helping parents in
the first five years of raising kids. She's an incredible

(13:10):
author shout out to her book Little People, Big Feelings,
which were both read and will link in the show notes.
And she's just an all round fairy godmother of very helpful,
very measured, very workable, doable advice.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
I would say we just adore her. And she introduced
us both to the phrase is this the hill I'm
willing to die on today? And that has actually changed
to our cope with things some days. She's just incredible.
Thanks so much for coming back on jin all wise
one always happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
How have you been, you know, just surviving raising four kids?
Do you know what I did yesterday? This is not
a joke.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
What I went to.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
My youngest son's parent teacher interview.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
I see his teacher, or who I thought was his teacher.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
He's got the one teacher.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
I only have one child left in primary school, and
I just like, smile warmly and start marching with confidence
over to the teacher that I think I'm going to
And then she looks a bit awkward and the parent
who's also trying to sit down looks a bit awkward.
And then my child's actual teacher goes, what are you doing?
And I'm trying to sit down with my oldest son's
teacher from last year.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
You're like, so that's how I am?

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
And then my child's current teacher, who's divine and I
know who she is. I don't know what happened, some
kind of brain implosion, and she's like, do you have
another interview today? Like is there a reason you're sitting
down with someone else?

Speaker 3 (14:37):
And I couldn't.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
I was just like, I simply could not tell you why,
like an answer to that question. O.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
You know, just there's a lot in my head and
sometimes things drop.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Well, we never.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
Think that you drop anything, because to us, you are
the oracle. I don't know how many times we have
both used the phrase is this the hill I'm willing
to die on today? Which you taught us in that episode,
and so many people who I've told that, like people
that would never listen to a podcast, like my dad.

(15:12):
My dad never says anything is clever, and he was like,
that is so clever.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
So that phrase alone really saved us so, yeah, we
wanted to get you back on, especially after so two
weeks ago we released an episode titled please Stop telling
Me my Son's autistic, and we were. The episode was
about a lot of people telling me that behavior that

(15:40):
Lenny exhibits is very reminiscent of maybe their child or
their experiences of a child on the spectrum, which, of course,
there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But my argument
was that to me, he's just exhibiting perfectly normal in
inverted comments, because of course there's nothing normal but behavior
for a three year old. And why are we so

(16:02):
quick to try to diagnose everyone with everything these days?
And you commented on that post, I so agree with this.
So many characteristics of neurodivergence are characteristics of all kids
and all humans, and no one should be diagnosing a
child apart from a multi disciplinary team made up of

(16:22):
three professionals minimum and only after half a day of assessment.
I'm a huge fan of early intervention, but not a
fan of diagnosing on the internet or anywhere.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
I stand by it, and look, I'm a parent who's
been through the diagnosis process a couple of times, you know,
one child thinking there might be something going on to
be told there is no diagnosis. Here another child thinking
there's nothing going on, and to be told there is
a diagnosis. And what I know about diagnosis is exactly

(16:53):
what I said that no one who is not qualified
and in a position to actually assess and diagnose the
child should be doing it. So definitely not strangers on
the internet. But even there are times where our teachers
might take a step too far in preschool and say,
you know, I reckon it's this, but unless you're qualified

(17:14):
to do that, you shouldn't be doing it. I work
with so many parents, thousands of parents, and sometimes they'll
come to me and say, you know, do you think
And I'll be like, I can absolutely tell you the
points in which I'd be thinking it's.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Time to get more help.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
But you know, I should not be diagnosing a child
that a I've never met, and I'm not in a
position to do that. That's simply not something I've been
trained to do. So I do feel like we're quick
to do that these days. But I've even found I
don't know if you guys find this for me, but
sometimes I'll go, oh, my goodness, you know the story
I just told you about turning up to the wrong
parent teacher interview. A lot of people will be really

(17:53):
quick to say to me, oh, you know, that's quite
reminiscent of ADHD or whatever it's like.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Or could be.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Could be that I am a mum who has four kids,
who's running a business, who's really busy, and who had
a really big weekend with girlfriends, and you know, maybe
all of that contributed to me being a bit scatty.
So you know, and again, I'm totally here for even
adults that are identifying that there might have been something

(18:24):
missed in their childhood and making sense of that. But
I do think, yeah, we're really quick, and it is
a pretty dangerous thing to be kind of going in
with that line of thinking. And I think there's a
real difference. I mean, I'm banging on a bit, but
I think there's a real difference between.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Hey, you know, that sounds really hard.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
We went through something similar with my son and we
got some speech therapy or some ote or we saw
a child's like and like that really helped. There's a
difference between that and my child has autism and your
child's behaving the same symptoms even though I've never met
your child.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
Yes, exactly. And also I think that there's a huge
difference between someone just offering that up versus and as
you said, you know, you're not qualified to diagnose someone
with autism or anything. However, I also still think it's
a little bit different if a parent asks you for
your opinion rather than you just going up to someone

(19:22):
and going, ow, oh, I think your kid they're going
to struggle.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
A little bit.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, totally, And are you in a position to do
that as well? You know, a lot of the time
these days, I'm working with a lot of parents, and
there's a difference between being aware there might be more
going on with our kids, and that's really important, like
it's important to be open and aware just stepping in
and supporting our kids where they need it. But I
find parents are so kind of crippled by the thought

(19:51):
that they're missing something, that there's more going on, that
kind of everything is a sign that something's wrong, And
so we're taking what is really normal childhood development and
we're saying all of it is like a sign of
a problem, and kind of that whole lens gets it
all wrong. It has us in a place of fear,
not in the right place to step in and help
our kids has us reacting in the wrong way, and

(20:13):
you know, most of the time it's not helpful.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
So I've been talking a lot to my girlfriends lately,
who we all have kids of similar age or we've
got the three and ages that are just ruling our lives,
and it's very kind of challenging, spirited. And I think,
what it is, it's like you have this child that
you know so well, and they're very sweet and very malleable,

(20:35):
and you've kind of learned their behavior, and then suddenly
overnight they're almost as different person. And I feel like
it's really hard to rationalize in your head about what
happened to my kid from yesterday to today. And I
think because the moods are so big and the emotions
are so big, and they swing so rapidly and then
they're back to being sweet and kind again, that you think,

(21:00):
but if this was anyone that was your friend, you
would think that they had some kind of illness or something,
you know, like you would think that there was something
that caused them to behave that way. But what it is,
it's like we can't understand the why, and we skip
to it must be for a reason. When perhaps a
reason is just they are a kid and they are

(21:20):
learning their limits and your limits and pushing them to
the extreme.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
I want to explain a little bit of the why today.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
But oh thank god, but.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think we've got this huge problem.
Couple of factors I think are coming in here that
I think are good to unpack. Number One, one of
the things we are doing is parenting differently. So some
of the behaviors your three year olds are exhibiting, like
whether that's chucking their toys literally out of the cot
or you know, absolutely losing it or whatever it is
that you're seeing, and I've seen it all right. One

(21:52):
of the ways we're parenting that's different is that we're
sort of being told as modern parents, well, you know,
you don't belt that kid across the ear and put
them in their room.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
You kind of get close and you welcome.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
The emotion, and you're kind of doing a lot of
stuff that is really different to the way that we
were raised.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
And that is a really good thing.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
And it's something that you know, I talk a lot
about like listening to the feeling and kind of being
empathetic with our kids. But I want to sort of
talk about what that means is we're going to see
in the short term a little bit more of that behavior,
and so it is going to feel a bit threatening
because we would have never got away with a lot
of the stuff our kids are in inverted commas getting
away with, because we would have learned much earlier and

(22:32):
much more swiftly and much more firmly.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
Hey, cut it out. That's not going to happen here.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
And so there is a difference that's happening here that
it will feel really full on because it's going to
feel scary because you weren't allowed to show that emotion
growing up.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
It's going to.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Feel a little bit like, Hey, I don't think I
ever carried on like this, because.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Chances are you didn't.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
And I think it's really important just to air that
or put some light on that, because it means that
it is genuinely harder and that our kids are potentially
showing their feelings in ways we didn't dare And one
hundred percent that's a good thing because we know that
it's through these meltdowns, it's through my child pushing their

(23:13):
friend and snatching off someone at the play date, and
all of the stuff that looks like my child is
destined for prison. Is genuinely how kids learn to be
caring and compassionate. It's how they grow their brains with
our support, with our help, with our coaching, and shame
and punishment and kind of old school stuff. It may
extinguish the behavior, but it doesn't teach our kid the

(23:37):
kind of underlying emotional intelligence that we're trying to build.
So it is going to feel messier when your child
is three, if you're kind of doing parenting a little
bit differently than the way you were raised.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
I don't think I've ever thought about it like.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
That, because I think that's it's really important with acknowledge
it's really hard what we're doing here, and there's a
few reasons that are sort of coming together to make
it harder. And then the other I think that it's
contributing when we see kids in the state that you
guys are talking about that makes you feel like, maybe
there's something really genuinely wrong with my child. If we're

(24:11):
having feelings as a parent and I'm just throwing out
things I hear and I maybe heard in your tone before,
where you almost feel like your child is because they're
sort of jeckyle and high that maybe they're kind of
gaslighting you that maybe, yeah, I heard the laugh.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Do you know it's exactly what she's doing. I won't
hear otherwise.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Okay, So if you're feeling kind of manipulated, gas lighted,
kind of terrified, any of those things by your three
and ager three year old, what I can tell you
a little bit of what's going on is that maybe
you're missing where to catch them on a climb into dysregulation.

(24:53):
And I want to unpack what this looks and feels
like right now because I think it would be super
helpful for your listeners.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Can we do it?

Speaker 1 (25:00):
You speak them a language already, you've found my issue
and you're given me a solution, a.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Climb into dysregulation.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
If you could imagine a child climbs a ladder and
there are ten steps up the ladder, and at the
top of the ladder is a child that looks more
animal than child.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
That is just so accurate. Lennie has like he just
will turn to us sometimes and his eyes go wild
and he's like and it's like you have to struggle
not to laugh at them because they're just so laughed.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Is good?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Silly is good, and sometimes it can be terrifying though,
Like sometimes our kid is grimacing and it's a bit terrifying,
Like it's just like, oh my gosh, and it's hard
not to place an adult life.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
That child is ten out of ten.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
And when I say ten out of ten, you know,
when I'm working with parents and you know, when we're
looking at kids fully losing it, it's that child absolutely thrashing,
kicking about in a meltdown where they're kind of at
risk of hurting themselves.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
It's a child and others. It's a child that is heating, spitting, kicking.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Headbutting siblings, parents, a child that is trying to pick
up your furniture throw it off the balcony.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Can I just confirm on the record, but you're saying
that that level of a tantrum level ten is still
perfectly normal for a three major two experience.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
One hundred percent it is. But but that's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
And and actually, you know, what I want to tell
you today is actually a story of how I missed
an emotional climb, because what happens is kids actually give
us a lot of lower level signs that they're building
up to the top of that ladder, and often we
miss a really pivotal turning point, and I'll describe what
it looks like and what it feels like, and we

(26:43):
miss this sort of turning point, and what we missed
is often the opportunity to grab our kid. Imagine they
are climbing the ladder, and imagine visually you grab your
kid and go, well, you're not okay. I can see
where you're heading, and I'm going to grab you. I'm
going to pull your clothes. We're stopping there. And actually
what we do in that moment is often said a boundary.

(27:03):
So let me paint a picture of what an emotional
climb looks like. At a one, a two, or a three.
We have a child that is in our vicinity. They're
not doing anything wrong, but I'll tell you how you're feeling.
You feel annoyed, okay, and I really want you to
tune into that feeling of annoyance. So that's a child
that's winging, that's whining, that keeps snatching off the baby,
that's kind of doing something in public that feels attention seeky,

(27:27):
or you just have that erky feeling of like h annoyance.
That is one of the first signs that our child
is on a climb into dysregulation, that low level stuff.
And sometimes what we can do on those lower rungs
of the ladder is we can do all the stuff
we see on the internet, name the feeling, big cuddles,
special time, connection, distraction, all of those things might work.

(27:51):
Even silliness could lower quartersole because actually what we're seeing
when kids are climbing up a ladder is actually quartersole
sending their brain into fight flight or freeze, and that's
why they look so crazy by the top of the ladder.
By mid level on that climb, you're going to start
to see different behaviors. That's a child that is actively
hitting the baby and looking at you in the eyes,
or standing on the table and you're saying get down,

(28:12):
and they're saying mate me. It's the child that won't
leave the park, that won't brush their teeth, that's, you know,
really kind of kicking off. That's even saying words like
I hate you or any of that stuff is a
sign a child is about to flip into that full disregulation.
Really common right before bedtime, kids will go silly, wild eyed,

(28:33):
and what we're seeing is that flip into the full
kind of crazy zone. It might even be a child
that you've just said a million times, you know, don't
do that thing, and they do that thing, you know,
or an unreasonable request, a child that walks in and
says I'm just going to have ice cream for breakfast
and you're like, are you joking?

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Right, that's a child saying I am about to lose
my shit, grab me here.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
And often we don't, And we don't because by this
point in the climb, we no longer feel annoyed.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
We feel something different.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
We feel a little bit scared, we feel a bit like,
oh god, not this again.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Why does he have to be like this? Why is
it so hard? What is wrong with me? What is
wrong with my child?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
And we start to feel all those kind of feelings
and kind of what we are feeling is important because
often as our child climbs into dysregulation, we are climbing
into disregulation.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
So we're kind of coming alongside them, right.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
But those lower signs are our opportunity to catch that child.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Now, just say my child. You know, my child used
to do this all the time.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
He'd walk into the kitchen, he'd see three older boys
sitting at it, in their spaghetti oillon aise and he goes,
I'm just gonna have an ice cream from the freezer,
and I would say, no, you're not, come and sit
at the table, and he'd go, well, I know where
the fraser is. So I'm just over here, hand on
the door, and I'm just going to grab the ice cream.
Now I've got a choice here, And I could say,
is this the hell I want to die on? But
I'm probably kicking that melt down down the road if
I can absolutely see, Yeah, my kid's not okay. So

(29:55):
the biggest question we might ask at that moment is
my kid okay or not okay? And if you kind
of know and you do know it's not okay, right,
there is this really cool opportunity there to step in
and usually set a boundary, and that might be saying, hey,
I hear you really want to ice cream. My answers, no,
we're not doing it, and our child will have a

(30:16):
massive meltdown at that point. But what I argue is
it is going to be so much less scary and
out of control than the meltdown they get to if
we let them get all the way up to ten.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
Is that where you were saying that you sat in
front of the freezer as well, because that's another thing
that I've also implemented, just sitting in front of the
thing and being quiet and just letting him do his thing.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
So one hundred percent. And the other thing i'd say, though,
you don't always have to sit on the ground when
your child is struggling. Like we're trying to attune to
our kids' big feelings around thirty percent of the time,
So thirty percent of the time and when they're really
struggling or when you kind of really think, okay, let's

(31:02):
do this, we're doing that.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
But we're also allowed to say, you're allowed to have
your big feelings.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
I am still going to kind of get on with
cooking dinner or feeding the baby or hanging the washing
on the line. You know, we don't have to stop
and drop for every emotion our kids have. And I
think that's really important because if we get really wrapped
up in this stuff all the time, first of all,
we're kind of giving it too much importance some of
the time, like it's sort of like the world is

(31:30):
stuffing every time your child has a feeling, which is
kind of not what we're trying to.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
Do, it's not really feasible long term, given they had.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Some it leads to burnout and it's not what kids need.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
It's kind of about those moments that you've kind of
seen that climb. You can feel your child being annoying,
you've offered silliness or connection, or you've done the best
that you can and you can see that they're suddenly
not okay. And for me, it is often once you've
got to it can be a child that is really
deliberately kind of picking on the sibling or scars in
the sibling too hard, or just doing those things that

(32:02):
you're like, you know, often it's grabbing them there and going, hey,
you're not a cab to stop you there. I don't
want you doing that anymore, and kind of grabbing them
before they do that kind of really wrong thing.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Would this be? So each night out we have like
a you know, we get home rue my three year old,
she knows like that she will coppentrate into the shower
and I while she's in the shower, I lay out
everything for her. So then when we go into her room.
We're learning to get dressed independently. But she loves to
have a big bounce around on the bed for a bit,
and I entertain that she makes her sister laugh and

(32:35):
it's all lovely, lovely. But then I'm like, all right, well,
I've got to go make dinner soon, so can we
get dressed now? Fifty to fifty As to whether she
listens on the days that she doesn't, I'll entertain it
for a little bit, but then I'll just kind of
be like, Okay, well, Suki and I, which is the
new baby, Suki and I gonna go and start making dinner.
When you're ready, you just get dressed and then meet
us in there. And like she'll either run after us

(32:57):
and then I'll help her get dressed, or she'll bounce
for a bit and then kind of come in with
you know, the nappy on the outside of the thermals and
we've got to redo it. But she's made an effort,
So would that kind of be what it is like
identifying that, Like, Okay, I have an opportunity here just
to kind of de escalate what's going on, set the
boundary and kind of move along, and I hope that

(33:18):
they then move along with you. And look, sometimes she
does scream and shout, but I'm like Babe, I've been
sitting here for fifteen minutes with you, trying to help
you get dressed. Nothing's happened, so I've got to move
it along.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
I think the boundary there is what you're willing to
do and not do, and that's the bit we lose.
As parents like you matter, You are allowed to say
I'm done with this, I'm not going to stay here.
You've got choices, or I'm done with this, I'm going
to get you dressed. You've got lots of choices, and
I think the one you're choosing, which is, hey, DHL,
you know, I can say you want to do this,
I'm going to go start cooking dinner. But you're still

(33:50):
you're putting your limit in place there beautifully, which is
I am no longer willing to sit here, not wanting
to be here. And that is so good for your kid,
because number one, you're being authentic. If you sat there
resenting it, you let it get so far. We've kind
of come on done and get dressed, you know, and nothing,

(34:11):
nothing's happening, and then you're going to wind up blowing
your stack like that's absolutely what's going to happen.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Whereas you know.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
The boundary is what I am willing to do or
not do. So the boundary time is never you need
to close your eyes and fall into physical sleep. Now,
the boundary is I've done my two books and I
will be just outside and you are safe here. And
even if this is a little bit hard for me
to leave, I know you've got this and I can't
wait to see in the morning.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
So the boundary is what I'm willing to do and
not do.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
I can't make my child. I can make my child
do some things. I can't make my child eat, sleep,
you know, behave.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
We can't do that.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
But we can say I am not willing to And
it's the same with I am not willing to let
you keep.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Jumping on my couch. I'm going to get you down.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Is the boundary of what I am willing to do
and not do. It's not so much about controlling our
child's behavior, and it's having the confidence to do that
that I think makes a difference. And I think the
way you're doing it is beautiful.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
That's so good, because yeah, you just kind of like
I felt like exactly what you said, I was just
losing my call. And then I kind of had to
come to Jesus. I was like, I have to approach
this in a different way. And so because I know
she can kind of get dressed by herself or like
she also has massive fomo when me and the baby
do stuff, I was like, maybe I just moved it along.

(35:29):
But I was losing my shit prior to implementing this way.
Let me tell you, I was like, so sleep deprived
and I I just picked you up and I bought
you a special cookie and then I've made it all
really beautiful for you and you treat me like this.
So yeah, I had a little bit of a breakdown.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
A couple of messages that are mucking you up there
one and I'm guessing I'm just stabbing in the dark here.
Sometimes I think as modern parents, we have a bit
of guilt about our child having been in childcare or
the fact we're working or whatever it is, and so
we're trying to make the moments we have with our
child magical.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Is there any of that going on?

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, definitely. Well I just feel like I was grumpy
all the time because I was so sleep deprived and
my pregnancy was horrible, and then when the baby came,
when I was a bit more physically able. I just
wanted to There are lots of treats. There lots of treats.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
You're wanting it to.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Be really nice, and so you're you're hesitant to say,
I'm no longer enjoying sitting watching you jump on the
bed like I'm done, and you're allowed to be done
with that. I think it's really important, Like, you know,
we want to enjoy our child, and she enjoys that
little ritual of coming out of the bath and doing
the jumping, but you've got a limit. And Number one,

(36:41):
I think these days we're almost being given this idea
that it is our job to make our kids happy
or make I don't know, the moments really special and
connected like all the time, and I don't think that's
what connection is. I think it's really seeing our kids
and being authentic. I think it's some of the time
really actively letting them know how loved they are and

(37:02):
how worthy of love they are, and really delighting in
them and sometimes saying authentically, you know, I can see
you're loving jumping, but I'm not loving it anymore, So
I'm going to go to the kitchen. And however she
deals with that is okay. But I think what you're
doing is laying the foundations for authenticity and like a
good relationship. And the long term playoff of that is

(37:24):
that she learns that a healthy relationship isn't doing whatever
the other person wants to do. Like she learns long
term when she's out there as a tween and her
friend says, hey, have a go over my vabe, She's like, yeah,
I really like you, but I don't want to do that.
And you've taught her that by kind of being authentic

(37:44):
within the home. And the other thing is if we
don't do that, we're burning out, Like parents are not okay,
you know. And I think there's so much pressure not
just to work and provide and be in a parent
And we are playing with our kids and engaging with
our kids as working parents more than a stay at

(38:06):
home parent was in nineteen seventy four.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
So we're doing a lot.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
And then on top of this, there's his pressure around
the style of which we're parenting and this idea that
you meant to get that right one hundred percent of
the time. That is a recipe for burnout. Like no
wonder parents are feeling like they're losing it and actually
One of the best antidotes to coping with a couple
of small children is acceptance that they're little. It's going

(38:31):
to be a bit of a shit show for at
least a year. Humor breaks and caring for ourselves as
well as applying some of this stuff some of the time.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
That's very helpful sometimes to try to keep myself laughing
as well. I've started yelling at him in a German accent,
so when I'll be like, you know, this is silly,
and then I'll be like, passive.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
What is PARSI doing over there?

Speaker 4 (38:56):
Parsy wants you to stop this silliness, and he just
start's laughing eight out of ten times because he thinks
it's so funny. Or I myself start screaming and I
get a pillow and then I just start like whacking
it on the couch and punching it. This might be
absolutely the worst thing to do, but once again, most
of the time it works because he'll stop and start

(39:18):
giggling at how silly I am.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
So again, if kids are like disregulated a lot, and
like a lot of particularly little boys can struggle with
some of the building blocks that lead to regulation, and
this is kind of where we started this conversation. But
sometimes that can mean that their cortisol is just always up.
And one of the best things you can possibly do

(39:41):
when cortisol is up in kids and when they are
getting disregulated a lot is laughter, like laughter and silliness,
because it's instantly going to lower that pressure. And then
you've got a child that's more able to listen, more
able to eat, more able to be sort of, for
want of a better word, compliant because you've made a joke.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
And my mum once.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Said to me, actually, she was like, if you've lost
your ability to laugh in parenthood, you've lost it.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Like it's so important to be able to laugh.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yeah, and it's not always easy, like don't get me wrong,
and sometimes I will just end up in tears myself,
but I try because I know that it's effective.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
With the ladder.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
What if there aren't always obvious signs that the child
is climbing the emotional regulation ladder. I'll give you an
example one that I messaged Key about. So my husband
was doing night shift for two months. So for two months,
I was doing the night routine by myself every single

(40:40):
day after working full time all day and it wasn't fun,
and one night I picked him up. You know, pickups
a I mean, listen, they're always better than drop offs,
because Len is a kid that still screams at me
every single morning when I drop him off. But pickups,
like it depends what sort of mood he's in. He
wasn't that wingy in the car, and I had to

(41:01):
get cat litter. It was a necessity. So I just
explained to him, Oh, we're just going to stop in
at the shop, run in it's really cold, then we'll
run back to the car. It'll be five minutes type thing.
And you know, a little bit wingy bit. He loves
to winge you just in general. The winging actually gets
to me way more than tantrums do. So we go
into the shop. Everything's sort of fine. He asks for

(41:22):
a car. I tell him no, well there's unfortunately Wilworth
doesn't sell cars anymore. But then there's one near the
register and I go, oh, that one's for big boys.
So everything's sort of fine, not one hundred percent. He's
not laughing or anything, but there's no obvious sign. We're
about thirty meters from the car and he tells me
he wants to eat and I say, well, Darlin, we're

(41:45):
about five minutes away from home. We'll eat as soon
as we get home. And he just drops to the floor.
And he'd been holding my hand prior and just unleashes
and I am holding the cat litter. It's not liked.
I'm holding my stuff, I'm holding other things. And he
is on the floor and he will not get up.

(42:06):
It's freezing cold, there's people trying to move around like
it's on the main street. It's peak hour. Anyway, I
could see the car, so I pick him up. He's
twenty something heloes, He's a big boy, and I physically,
like it was took all of my strength to muster
and get him into the car. Then, whenever he's having

(42:26):
one of these tantrums before we get into car, I
can't get him into the car seat, like he's just
too strong for me. It's a two person job, sometimes
even three when he's having that sort of a meltdown,
and so he's just then screaming in the back seat
of the car. I don't know where I went so wrong?

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Really, gosh, no, you didn't go wrong at all.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Okay, So let's first of all just acknowledge that our
child having a meltdown like that in public at the
end of a long day when it's cold and he
hands a full of car is just so shit, so
on so many levels. And you took me back in
that story to a time where my youngest child had
this meltdown on the pedestrian crossing on the main street

(43:13):
of where my kids go to school on a Friday
afternoon at three perm. You know, now, all parents do
pick up on a Friday afternoon, that's what we know.
It's not the nanny, it's the parent.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
So all the.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Parents are there, it's Friday afternoon, it's absolutely jam packed,
and my child decides he wants a gingerbread man from
the bakery, which is, you know, one meter that way.
And I'm like, I am late to pick up your
two older brothers, who are one meter that way at school.
And I'm saying to my three year old, first we
get the boys and then we get the gingerbread man,
and he is just like, I cannot do that today,
and he just collapses on the pedestrian crossing and again

(43:44):
he weighed about like five hundred kilos and I had
to do the full kid under the arm walk, you know,
hoof of shame to the van and throw him in
the van.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
And you know what, I got this message from a mum.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
I felt embarrassed because I was doing what I'm doing
now then and I was it's like, oh my god,
they must sing. And she's a parent educator. And I
got this text from this beautiful mum. It was like
five pm on Friday afternoon and she said to me,
if you haven't done the walk of shame with the
screaming toddler under one arm down High Street, you're not
a parent. And she said, I hope you've got a

(44:17):
glass of wine in your hand. And I thought, how
nice is that?

Speaker 3 (44:21):
That camaraderie of like we've all there.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
The acknowledgment of how normal. It is. Awful but normal.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
First of all, everything you just described, every parent is
going yep, yep, yep. We've all been there. Okay, So
there's nothing you got wrong and there's nothing that's abnormal
about that tetrium at all.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
On the plus side, we weren't in a packed shopping center,
because that's also happened. And then I carried him out
to the car. He is so loud that people come
out of the stores to look at him like a
who is making such loud noise? Well, I'm just smiling
over the thrashing toddler, grinning like a maniac, like there's
nothing to see.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
And what I used to do, what I did on
the pedestrian crossing that day, I almost pretend there's a
bubble around me and my child. Also, you can do
that for a bit and then the only other answer
is to get out of there.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
So you do what you got to do.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
But in terms of, like you asked the question, did
I miss the climb, what happened was the climb kind
of happened in the day that your child is at
childcare or you know, whatever care he's in. He has
to navigate through someone snatching off him in the sand
pit and listening to instructions and being a really good
boy all day, and it takes a lot of energy.

(45:36):
It takes all his effort, and he also has to
navigate all of that feeling of being apart from you.
And then you come back and the goodbye and the
hallo are transitions, right, So those two points in the
day are really prime for those.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Big feelings to just kind of come up and explode.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
And so what you experienced was kind of just see
after school meltdown, and not only is it normal, that's
completely normal for that's still to be happening when your
child is five, six seven and they're navigating the big
change of like starting kindergarten or.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Prayer, you know, and so all of that is completely normal.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
And you know, what you're really looking at is just
the release of those feelings. And it just sucks, and
I think you just go home and pulls up a whine.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
It's almost like the same as that you have a
bad day at work or whatever, and then you kind
of come home and you're a bit stoppy with your
significant other or whoever you're sharing your space with. I
didn't think about it in that term. For like our
little people, like they are trying so hard and using
all of their power and strength and energy in the
day to follow rules and navigate, you know, little things

(46:47):
like that. It's so interesting thinking about that perspective, like
they're doing the same things as us.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yes, and yet we don't. We sort of view it
through this lens if there's something wrong with that. And
the reason for that is that it is our job
to turn out these people into compassionate kind reasonable, sensible,
resilient humans, and so when they look none of those things,
we panic and go, am I not doing my job?
Or is there something wrong with my child? But in

(47:12):
actual fact it is exactly the same as us. I
always think it's like you say to your partner on
a bad day, you know, can you bring the milk home?
And your partner says, yeah, yeah, sure, day bowl, I'll
bring the milk, And then you know you've had this
day from hell and you've navigated through a million meltdowns,
and your child's snatching everything off the baby, and like

(47:32):
you burn the dinner and you know, and then your
partner walks in and you go, did you get the milk?
And he goes, oh, you know, I forgot it, but
I'll I'll go up later and I'll get it.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
You're going to go postal, You're going to go I ask.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
For one thing and no one appreciates me. I have
to take all of the mental load.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
I hate this.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
Yeah, and your partner is going to go, this is
so unreasonable.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
It's just milk. The shop is two minutes up the road.
But it's not the milk. It's the build of all
of those things and feeling unseen and navigating through all
of those kids' meltdowns, and our kids are no different,
Like it's exactly the same, and that's what happened.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
For our kids.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
They're they're they're kind of hanging by a thread. They
don't even know it. Sometimes they've regulated through as much
as they can, and that one thing goes wrong. We
don't get them something they wanted at the cash register,
or even the cold or the wind blows in their
face and their hair goes in their face the wrong way,
and they're like.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (48:28):
That's such a good point because it's like, you know
how sometimes there'll be a bunch of stuff going on
and you'll just kick your toe or just something that's
so silly and it hurts, but you have the most
ridiculous reaction, like they're sobbing, you're swearing, like and it's like,
oh my god, I literally just kicked myto It actually
not that big a deal, but it's the whole day,

(48:48):
do you know?

Speaker 2 (48:49):
It gets me, Like, you know, if you're rushing and
you like you're hanging by a thread and then you
catch your cardigan on the doorknob.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
Or you can't get your seat belt, like you're like
fucking wrong.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
So we're all toddlers.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
You've literally just taught us that we are all toddlers.
And actually just they just lose it a lot more
than we do because their frontal cortex isn't developed.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
The problem is that they are requiring a lot of
us when they lose it. So kids can't self regulate
until six, so they're needing us with them when they.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Lose it, whereas we can lose it and.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
We I mean, maybe we text our partner or call
the girlfriend, but we're not needing someone to literally sort
of hold us and put us back together in the
way kids do. And so they're requiring a lot from us,
and the load of that, particularly in a modern society
that is demanding so much of us. We're under financial pressure,
we are busier than ever, our partners are working really

(49:47):
long hours, like there's just a lot going on, and
so the demands of that are a lot, and so
it's going to feel like a lot. And I always say,
if it's just feeling repetitive and too much, the first
thing we want to look at is how we look
after ourselves. Are we getting enough breaks? Are we tapping
ourselves out and making sure we look after us.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
And then the second.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
Point if anyone is listening to this thinking, but how
do I know when it is time to get anything
checked out?

Speaker 3 (50:14):
Ever?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
With my kids, the thing I say to parents is
if it's just really feeling like your child is just
absolutely dominating kind of every waking moment in the house,
if you're walking on eggshells, if it's just feeling not right,
then it never hurts to start with your GP and
say I want to check out my kid, and most
of the time you'll get told welcome to ving two

(50:37):
or being three.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
What about when part of the three enager is the
constant walking on eggshells? But it's because every single thing
is a battle some days, not every day. But it's like,
why is it just that they're trying to see what
they can get away with? Like, as an example, just

(50:59):
before daycare, you know, they wake up and they're already winging,
and I'll say, can you please if you're hungry, that's fine,
but can you please ask me in a non wingy
tone for breakfast? And like he struggles a little bit
with that, but then he'll finally get there because I'm like,
I'm happy to give you breakfast, but I'm not giving
it to you if you ask me winging, because the
winging kills me. And then it's like, oh, they think

(51:22):
that they can have chocolate chip cookies for breakfast. You
know that you can't. And then you don't want to
brush your teeth, and then you don't want to get
your shoes on, then you don't want to get a
jumper on it, and it's like, you know that you
have to do all of these things, you know, and
we could either have a really nice day and a
really nice morning together because you know that you know

(51:42):
that it's going to happen anyway. So it's either you
just brush your teeth yourself or I hold you down
and you scream while I do it for you. Same
with the jumper. So why is every single thing a battle?

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Because they don't have a fully formed free frontal cortex.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
That old thing? Why can't they? Why are they born
so useless?

Speaker 4 (52:03):
And honestly when they're born, they don't even have their teeth.
Tsuki's teething here at the moment, it's like, why why
do you like that does sound painful that your teeth
are coming through the.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Hope they can't even hold their heads up at birth exactly.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
They don't know how to pass wind.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
We need to help them.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
So here's the thing. Two things.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
One, it just is and actually it's not about the
brush and the teeth and like, it's not like your child. Wait,
someone goes, you know what, I choose to make my
mum have a really difficult day. That's my choice. So literally,
if we can just remember, they're not giving you a
hard time, they're having a hard time. Why are they
having a hard time Usually because the next thing is hard.

(52:43):
So the reason why the morning routine is hard is
because your child is about to have to do the
hardest part of their day, which is say goodbye to you.

Speaker 4 (52:51):
Oh my god, you've just wad That's what it's about,
because I just realized that's what he's procrastinating so much
because he hates drop off because he doesn't do it
on the mornings where it's us I know.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
And that's the same thing. At the back end of that.
Kids will give us a hard time even when we reunite.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
And what they're saying was, you know, it was hard
to do all that and I'm now back with my saf.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Hey, stupid bitch.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
How very deaf and you know.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Well, it's not.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
It's actually like, oh, I can exhale, right, it's so loving,
And I know it doesn't feel loving, but it is.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
It's the big compliment that our kids give us.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
But the second thing i'd say to you, because one
of the true ways to sort of have this feel
easier kids be kids, Like, I'm not going to change
the behavior of any of my kids. They're going to
be difficult. But how upset do I get by that?
And I want to go back to something you've said
a couple of times in this conversation, and that's what
the winging.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
Really gets to you.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
What's really interesting about that statement is that for most mums,
for most women.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Winging and whining really gets to us.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
Yep, even other people's kids when they do it, I'll
be like start right.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
And for most dads and for many men, the thing
that will really get them rageye is defiance. It's the
kid looking at them like defiant.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Now, let's track back to how many of us were
raised through the eighties and the nineties. If you were female,
you're probably told a message along the lines of turn
that frown upside down. Nice girls, don't winge, you know,
stop winging or else like, we were not really allowed
to express that low level wingy, whiny kind of stuff,

(54:35):
and many boys were punished if they were defined or
mucked up. So often what you're experiencing as really triggering
and really hard says more about what you're struggling with
than what's sort of really going on with your child.
So that's just one little lens to place on this
that often the thing that we are finding the hardest

(54:58):
is something that we we weren't able to express growing up,
or it's just something that for some reason or another
is hard for us.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
And that's the.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Kind of reflection that can make a difference because once
we realize that's playing a role in how frustrated we feel,
we've actually got a choice about how worked up we
get about it. So we might then spot a child winging,
and you might get really close to your little guy
and say, hey, I can see that wingy tone is happening,
and you know what, I get it. It's a daycare day,
and I know it's hard to say go by to mum.

(55:27):
How about we have a big cuddle and then I
make your breakfast. So you've really faced it head on
for both of you, and it is an alternative that
might really have him feel seen in that build of emotion,
and sometimes by seeing it and naming it, we actually
stop it from continuing to build through the whole morning
and into that teeth and all the frustration.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 (55:48):
Yeah, And it's such a good point. And I think like,
sometimes you just need these things validated back to you
because I know that the more I get frustrated, I'm
actually winging back at him. Would you stop whinging? Is winging?
So yeah, sometimes it helps just to have things validated.
And also just that someone said that it's actually just

(56:11):
how safe they feel when they do release everything at
the end of it. Because my sister has looked after Land,
you know, for a couple of hours here or there before,
and she'll always be like, oh, he's just such an angel.
And same with like my mum or dad if they've
looked after him. And there was one time where he
had a sleepover at my sister's house and she said

(56:32):
he was an absolute angel the entire time. He came
back through the door and lost it for a solid
thirty minutes, and I did think I was like oh,
I mean, it's so nice that he was so good
for my sister, but also lol, like he clearly just
every frustration that he had felt over the past twenty

(56:52):
hours or whatnot was being released.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
And that's what we want.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
We want the kid that's sort of becoming socially aware
enough that they're able to hold it together for grandmar
and go to childcare and kind of follow the rules
and listen to instruction. But for many kids, for most kids,
that takes an incredibly huge toll, and it's such a
huge compliment that they feel safe with us to let

(57:16):
that out. And I will say again, and it's what
I sort of talked about earlier, but for many of
us growing up, we had already learned by their age
that there was no safe place to show that with.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
So we just learned to push that down. And that
hasn't worked.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
For a society that's highly medicated and uses social media
and alcohol and everything else to numb their emotions like
we you know, it hasn't worked perfectly, And so what
we're trying to do for our kids is create this
space where they feel comfortable to let that out. And
so it's just remembering all emotions are welcome with me.
All behaviors are not. So if your child is hitting you,
I would one hundred percent of the time stop them

(57:53):
in a way that is so firm and so clear
that that is not going to be tolerated. But it
is also kind because I know you're a good kid.
I've got you. I'm catching it. So I just want
to be really clear because sometimes I talk about this
stuff and then people's come to me and they said, Jen,
do I keep welcoming my child's feeling when they're kicking
me in the head, And I'm like, you're like.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Oh no, you stop that.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I don't know if you know. I'm like kind of
my backstory, but my mum was a bit absent when
I was growing up, uninvolved and was quite authoritarian when
she wasn't the picture, and it just wasn't good. So
I struggle because I don't have like a blueprint necessarily
of like the right way to parents. So I find
that I'm like with a newborn, I really like enjoyed

(58:37):
having a newborn and baby stage. I like felt like
I just really instinctively understood how to do that. And
I think it's because it's very like task oriented it's
like a bit easier because I don't really talk back.
And I feel like where everything kind of started to
fall apart from me was definitely having a toddler, because
obviously this is when it's the most challenging to you know,

(59:00):
those formative years of when I was growing up. And
so something that you said earlier was just like I
think it was to the tune of having breaks from
your children. And I think because I had such an
absent parent, I feel quite guilty sometimes about tapping out
or whatnot. But my husband and my toddler went away

(59:20):
on the weekend, and so I just had a couple
of days with the baby, and I felt like so
excited to see my toddler on the Sunday, and I
felt like it was almost like when you got back,
I could parent well again, Like is there something in
having that time to self regulate so that then you

(59:42):
can help them to learn how to regulate? Like I
didn't expect myself to have such a big feeling of
emotion having like two days apart.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Look, I mean, we wouldn't ask anyone to do any
other job on the planet twenty four to seven with
sleep deprivation and no breaks and.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Do what we to do.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Yeah, So, like it is impossible to be the parent
you want to be if you're not taking those breaks
and stepping away. And I just think what you just
said about your mom is really interesting because often there
is a little story that's playing, and I want to
give you an exercise that I think could be helpful

(01:00:21):
for that. But I think sometimes maybe there's this sense
that my mum was really absent.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
There wasn't a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Of warmth or sort of love there, and so we're
almost overcompensating because we don't want our kids ever to
have that feeling we had of that lack of warmth
or that absent parent. We're often really sort of trying
to do that. So another example I get often is
when parents I work with were parented by someone that
was maybe very scary at times, like they got on

(01:00:51):
the verge of abusive or abusive. That parent will often
struggle to set boundaries and limits because they so don't
want their child to ever feel that feeling they felt
that fear that they actually find it hard to lead
it all. They're just like, okay, just have one more
because they just would rather be kind and be nice
then be what.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
It was of how they felt.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
The reason I bring that up is because once we
just have an awareness of that, and you have a
beautiful awareness because you just said it, like you said
all of that about your mum and about how it's
sort of hard for you to step away, and yet
you've seen the benefits of it. Here is the little
exercise I think we can apply as parents that I
think can help. And it's a Brene Brown that I'm
using here, But she does this thing where you kind

(01:01:35):
of say out loud or you write down the story
I'm telling myself is that if I take a break,
I will leave my children deserted and they will struggle forever,
Like it might be as concrete as that, the feeling
they have. And then you say, but here is what
I know, or here are the facts, and you could
even say or write down the facts like all parents

(01:01:56):
need breaks. A break will make me a better mum,
my child safe with their father, you know, And you
write down all of those really factual things, and that
can help just overcoming some of those ideas that are
actually subconscious. They're kind of playing a tune in the
background about decision making, and they can be getting in
the way, and sometimes when we just write them down

(01:02:17):
or bring them to the surface or just acknowledge yep,
that is playing a role. And I can sort of
let that run me unconsciously, or I can say, yeah,
of course, that makes so much sense for me to
feel a bit complicated about leaving my kids, and I know,
based on the evidence and the facts and the fact
that my child is safe with their partner, it's a
really good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
For me to still do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
So we just keep leaning gently into the discomfort of that.
And I had to do a lot of that too.
I found it really hard to leave my kids and
to take breaks. I kind of mind was more a
Catholic guilt sort of issue. I don't know, but I
just couldn't stop working. I could never stop and enjoying
myself or just take break. And if I did hire

(01:03:01):
a babysitter, I had to like go shopping at aldi
to save money to like justify it. And I've really
worked on it through the year. I'm really good at
taking breaks now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
I'm so good at it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
I feel like sometimes I'm like a passenger in my
house and I need to do my work. Yeah, so
I think you can absolutely shift this stuff by just
gently going what's the story that's kind of coming up here,
and how might it be playing a role in what's happening.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
I hope that helps.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
It does, And like, honestly, when she came back, she
was so excited having been away, but she also really
missed me, and I felt like even it was beneficial
for her that she had that time apart to kind
of miss mummy and realize that I do a lot
for her. She just came back very sweet and happy
to see me, and I felt like that was a
nice little reset.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Yeah, and it's a really.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Nice opportunity because she was with her dad, right, It's
really nice for them to have.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Someone on one time. Yeah, and kind of you know,
reset the four walls. So yeah, it's a really good thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
We're so grateful to you, Jen No.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
I love chatting to you guys, and I think you're
doing such a beautiful job.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
And the stuff that you're talking.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
About is so important for you know, young mums I
call them, I'm an old mum, for young mums to
be hearing like these very real struggles and these authentic
you know, my kids losing it on the street and
everybody's just like, oh, thank God, it's not just me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
And I think that's so important.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
We'll put the link to your book in the show
notes because it is. It is. It's such a good
book and we only get to tap into you a
little bit, but you've got this beautiful resource for all young's,
young mums or old mums, any mums. But thank you
so much for your time. We know how busy you are,
and we know that our listeners really appreciate it, and
anytime you come on, so thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Oh thanks for having me and any.

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
Time recommendations, time recommendations.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Who wants to start?

Speaker 4 (01:04:54):
Lego have released a Bluey range Stop. Isn't that so
so cool?

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
So I got my soul's gonna love that?

Speaker 4 (01:05:02):
And they've got the duplo. So I got my girlfriend's
daughter who is four plus so she could have the
proper Lego. Yeah, I got her because I know she
loves Bluey like this little cool trick. Anyway, they've got
a bunch of things at all different price ranges, so
have a look. It's so cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Me in my head, oh four plus will be fine
for three.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
It's only because they are so small.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
I know what you mean, but I'm just so ready
for her to play with normal Lego duplo is just
like so big.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
It is fun.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Though it is fun.

Speaker 4 (01:05:29):
I'm gonna just combine them all I've got combined to
all the duplo plus normal blocks. Yeah, she plays way
better though, to be fair, I love Lego.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
It's fun.

Speaker 4 (01:05:38):
I know it's expensive, but that's why we can. Well,
it's good for gifts, and we buy it on spash.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Yeah, it is a great gift. Actually, anytime someone gets
us Lego, I'm like sweet knocked it out of the park.
Speaking of good gifts, one of my recommendations this week
is the Where's Wally Books? I mean, throw it all
the way back to my child ratrol so retro, but
it's so good. We actually got this four Roux's birthday
from friend of the Podles Stevens.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
She thought she would buy a perfect gift. She doesn't
have a toddler, but buys a perfect gift.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Yeah, and it's so good. Like at the start, Rue
was not really grasping it, but by the second or
third time we did it, she was like, there he is,
there is there is And it's not just to remind
you because it has been obviously a long time since
we've all had to do it. It's not just about finding Wally.
There's obviously all these people that are dressed up as Wally.
There's like the bumblebee Wally, the Waldo who's dressed in
black and yellow instead of the red and white. And

(01:06:31):
then there's the dog tail that you have to find,
which is really hard, so it gets really fun. I
actually enjoy doing it, so you know, there's like you
don't enjoy doing everything they want to do and.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Some stuff I really could care less.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
This is fun and you don't have to let them win.
Like the more they do it, the better they get.
So I mean, now she'll point to it quicker than
me and find it quick.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Because their memories would be so good at that age. Yeah,
well we'll think.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
It in the show notes to make it freeze. And
the other one is floor puzzles. I don't know if
you know about these, so I make you know that
I make Lenny do my Yeah, you make Lenny do
really hard puzzles. We borrowed a frozen two to be
specific floor puzzle off our friend. So they're just bigger
pieces of puzzles that the kids can do on the floor.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Wouldn't they all be floor puzzles when they're big. Even
a big puzzle, isn't that still a floor puzzle.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Someone would do it on a table, but kids to
do it on the floor. It's just easier for them
to see it. I don't know why it's called a
floor puzzle, okay, is it important to this?

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
It's not.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
This is a tangent where you're going off on. Anyway.
I put it up by my stories the other day
because when we are cooking dinner, ru Rue just wants
to be in amongst I get it. But Suki's there
and I need her to sit next to Sukin and
entertainer and we have this floor puzzle sitting here. And
I've done it with her before, and so I was Charlie.
But then that night I just said, oh, get out

(01:07:49):
the floor puzzle. Let's put it down and do it yourself,
and mummy will help you, but like, you do it yourself.
And she's like, oh, let's look together, and I'm like, actually,
puzzles are for you, like they're meant to be really
entertaining and they're not to be easy. Okay, so work hard,
you find the pieces, group the pieces together that look
the same. She needed some guidance, like she'd be like,
is this good?

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
Is this good?

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
Bit?

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
That I turn around and she'd do a whole bit
and I was just like interesting. And then the next
time she did it, it was like a little like
less help. And then one night she just did the
whole thing. And when Charlie was here, she's just a
whole thing by herself, and he was like, are you serious.

Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
I'm like, baby.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
It was just so exciting to see the progression and
just for her to be so entertained at dinner that
we're all still together but she's got something to do
and she's so chuffed at the end of it. So
we now are going to buy more of them because
they're just great to have, and they're not too big either.
They're just kind of like not one by one meter

(01:08:45):
or maybe in that range, so they're not huge, but
perfect for like doing it in the kitchen on the
floor when you're cooking, so floor puzzles. No specific one,
but just if you see one for sale, grab it,
all right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
The library. I think you've mentioned you got some.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
I think our friends got it from a toy library.
Oh to us, Yeah, let's on that street. A toy library. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
Oh so you borrow a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Toy, borrow toys? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:09:08):
Have I ever bought a secondhand or used a second
turn to in my life? No because I'm a snob.
No because I'm absolutely terrified of germs.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Of germs. That's it, all right. On that note, we
better say goodbye. The West was produced by US Hands
and the audio production was done by the wonderful Mattie Joanna.
Have a good week, shitter is, and remember to brow
your teeth, wash your hands.

Speaker 4 (01:09:32):
Yes, hygiene h