February 4, 2025 • 31 mins
Toddlers are learning, growing, and pushing boundaries, but what happens when your child’s behavior starts to raise eyebrows on the playground? Is it just a phase, or should you be worried? In this episode of Eat Sleep Sh*t Repeat, Kee and Kelly unpack the big feelings and awkward moments that come with raising toddlers who sometimes hit, push, or bite.
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HOSTS & PRODUCERS
Kelly McCarren @kelly_mccarren
Kee Reece @keereece
AUDIO PRODUCTION
Madeline Joannou - Mylk Media
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land we're recording
on today.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Why should you have to take your kid away? If
there's another kid.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Bullying them their parent isn't present.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Then you arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kid
is this? Who the mad shit is this?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Get it out?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome back to Eat, Sleep Shit, repeat your
unhinged podcast about the madness that is novelhood and everything
in between. I'm km according to the script.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
That right, that's right, I wrote it, and I'm krs
k Resells. In case you miss last week's episode, we
had a bit of a moan about newborn's ahead of mine,
newborn arriving.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh boy, has it arrived? We won't know, we will
at the time of recording.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You're unsure at this time, and I'm not sure if
I should laugh or cry, because there's quite a lot
that I forgot about. But it's just like riding a
bike ride.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I actually think it probably is yeah to be but
you think, oh, I forgot that they shit nine times
a day. But you're like, oh, it's ingrained in my
memory how to swaddle in.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, I had to hold someone's baby the other day
and I was like feeding her, and then I was like,
do I need to burp her? And her mom was like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
They require the burbs on the show today. Is my
toddler a bully? Well, it's easy to be encouraging of
other parents when their kids are acting up. Oh it's
not your fault, it's okay, or kids go through this.
When you witness bad behavior from your toddler, it is
really confronting and often you can't help but feel like
you've failed. So can toddlers be bullies? And should we
(01:37):
be a little bit concerned? We're getting to the bottom
of it today.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Now. A little reminder, we have pre recorded in the
lead up for this baby coming out of hopefully my vagina,
so we're not doing Pek and Pit because we thought
they'd kind of like age but terribly. But don't worry.
Pek and Pit will be back as soon as we
are back to our regular recording schedules, So hang in there,
Pek and Pit lovers. Toddler development is such a tricky time.
(02:02):
They're suddenly mobile, with likes and dislikes and a very
limited but spirited vocabulary to tell them when you get
it wrong. Alongside this, their engagement with the world and
their socialization with others increases rapidly. You start to get
excited by the fact that your toddler can now play
with others, and then comes that heartbreaking moment you witness
your toddler being quote unquote bullied by another child or worse,
(02:26):
them being the bully. Seeing these behaviors can be super
triggering as a parent. For instance, watching another kid a
certain behavior over yours can awaken the Mama bear inside
of you, maybe even trigger some of your feelings around
being picked on as a kid, and you want to
jump up or jump in and say something. Or your
sweet kid is the alpha at the playdates, snatching, hitting,
(02:47):
biting and forcing you to leave. It's mortifying, no matter
how encouraging the other parents are, and you leave feeling
horrified and wondering, how did I end up with a
bad kid?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Why did I create a monster?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I'm a good person and I swear so cal Have
you been in situations where you've seen another toddler bully.
I'm using it loosely just for the context of what
we're talking about. Bully len or Len maybe being a
little bit of a bully.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think because of Len's size. He would be hard
to bully for other toddlers because he's a big boy.
He's ginormous. So I haven't, which I actually think is
probably a good thing. Yeah, because I really struggle with
my own self control, and so if I saw a
child doing something to Len, I think I would really struggle, Yeah,
(03:35):
not to immediately step in and start parenting the other
kid and shouting and calling the kid names. Potentially. Yeah,
it's in my nature. I'm a bier, Like I'm a dog.
I bark a lot, and my bite is hard to
so I just feel like it's probably my own impulse
control and self control sucks, so which you know, I
will have to get better.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, definitely. I think it's like ingrained and answer. All
we want to do is protect them. So if you
see that, like you just automatically react in a way.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, they've been just like i'd say, very normal circumstances
like at those place and things. Yeah, if a little
kid's trying to grab something off Lenny, but a big kid, yeah,
it's always a lot older. Yeah, I guess because of
his life. But I'll just be like no, no, We're
just going to wait for him to finish playing that Lenny,
once you finish playing with that yeah, or you know,
(04:24):
now it's your turn to share the toy or whatever
it is.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I find that it's also really dependent on how
present the other parent is of the kid that's kind
of maybe a little bit like rough and tumble, because
I feel like if the parent is there, I'm watching
it and kind of intercepting, you know, you're like, oh,
that's so fine, don't worry, like blah blah blah. Okay.
I'm using a personal example here, like at our local Westfield,
(04:49):
there's this dad who always brings his kids to the.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Playground, the one on the top floor that yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Play one and the dad sits there on his phone
the whole time. And his daughter, she's a rough and
tumble and she like fully pushes the other girls. So
we then have to parent that kid. That doesn't make
us feel good, and we're just.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Like, control your kid.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So I really think how much the parent is parenting,
and that situation has a bit of an impact as
well on how much you can tolerate.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, remember that boat that I talked about. I went
on with all of those kids, and you were like,
what they didn't have life jackets. And I had to
go up and get the parents because I was like,
these aren't my kids. They were older. Yeah, And I
was also like, I'm not here to tell these kids
what to do. So I actually went upstairs to get
(05:37):
the parents and I just said, hey, can someone come
and help. Your kids aren't sharing? And then they didn't
believe me, and I'm like, Okay, why would I be
lying about.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Such a thing would have fun?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I just need to not be parenting. You're the ones
that have left your kids to their own devices, literally,
and then they're not sharing with another kid. I'm sure
we can all agree that children should share. Please come
and assist. I'm not.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I really think it has a big impact on it
how well you can function, and that situation when your
kid's being picked on is how much the other parent
cares so that you don't have to feel like your
parents are overreaching.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
As well or also like then, I guess how sympathetic
you'll be towards certain circumstances. Because there was an incident
last year where there was a bitter in Lenny's room.
I remember this, the infamous bitter.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeh, I never tell you the name, but you know that.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know that they're there, and this was before they're
really talking, so even the kid can't tell you who
it is. But it was really awful. Like both Lenn
and his cousin Wesley the Puff go to the same
school and they were both repeatedly bitten and really really
bad bite it's like bad bruises. First, they didn't want
(06:52):
my child to be scared about going to daycare. Oh
I'm going to get bitten.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
It's a safe space you want them to find going.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Secondly, I didn't want to encourage that sort of behavior
with him. The modeling other children's behavior is so common,
so there was a bunch of different things. And also
I was just annoyed that my kid was getting bitten,
and I talked about it on socials and I had
some parents reach out and just say because I was
probably like a little bit angry at the time, you know,
(07:20):
it's really bad to be the parent of a bitter
And I was like, oh my god, absolutely, because Luke
and I have talked about that before, as we were
both bullied younger. We've talked about how it would be
worse to find out that our child is actually the bullied,
totally bully whatever you would say, because it's just awful.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, yeah, you feel inherently that you've failed as a parent.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That you've created a bad person. And it's funny because
the educators at daycare can't tell parents who the child is,
which you know, the reasons are that parents can then
get involved in I just think, guys, they're kids, like,
please don't go and yell at a child. Then I'm
the one that just said that. I so, but it's.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Funny the reason why they don't tell us.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I found out who it was, though, and it actually
made me feel better. I don't know why, but I
felt like because I knew the kid, it was better
to put a face to the name.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Well, often you think it's going to be like this
kid that you don't even know about, the bad boy
or gone. And I was like, oh, it's your best friend.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Or it was just he wasn't their best friend. But
he was a really cute little like he's a nice
enough kid. Yeah, and there was a lot of stuff
going on with the older class. Whoever, and my niece
is in where even worse, like he was holding her
down and biting her. One day she was napping and
he pulled her pants down and bit her on the bottom,
which I actually said. I was like, Okay, that's that's resault.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, that's not.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Cool, And where the hell were the teachers to allow
all of that to happen. But it turns out so
both of the boys their parents were going through something
pretty hectic, and it goes to show that sometimes it
can be really indicative of things that are going on
at home.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, that's such a good point, something that I hadn't
even thought of.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And I truly just do not believe that children are
bad or inherently evil. Of course, there are exceptions to
the rule with born sociopaths and that sort of thing,
and I just think that they're expressing themselves in ways
that they haven't been taught not to. And I don't
yell loudly often I'm a yeller, But the few times
(09:20):
that I have absolutely lost my shit is when Lenny
has hurt. That's just, to me, the biggest thing that
kids we do not treat other people badly or animals.
So twice Lenny has kicked the cat. When I tell
you that I had not yelled that loudly before at him,
he started to bare his eyes out, which then made
(09:41):
me feel terrible because I scared him so much. You
know what, though he hasn't done it again. Yeah, because
I yelled so loudly. The cat was here first.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
That's what I always say. The rue hour was here first,
being nice to him.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Don't kick the cat like, do not kick animal. And
a few times he's pushed his cousins. One time he
almost pushed Wesley down this ste and I think, once again,
it comes back to his size. I think when a
child is bigger, it's really easy for them to assert
their dominance without even realizing that they're doing it by
being a little bit pushy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
They don't realize their strength.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So that's why in some cases we're not supposed to
do this. But I'll be like bloody pushing back.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I know, I'm fox sake, stand up for yourself because
it goes I'm like the same size, pushing back, pushing back.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
It's always like the closest people that he's with. I
think though, Yeah, they's like an a of.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Safety, familiarity and who they're kind of acting out against.
In our case, that hasn't been random.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
No, it hasn't been random at all. In Len's case,
the only person that wasn't family including Percy that he
pushed once was Bailey, Ashley's youngest two's six months older
than him, so yeah, same age, and I got so angry,
but actually was like, hell, they're little kids, They're gonna
push each other, and like it's okay.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I haven't luckily had to deal with anything really yeah yet,
very just basic level, normal toddler stuff. He's pretty gentle
overall and very caring. You were saying that Rue has
even hit you.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
She has. She has, and it's not like super hard
or anything like that, but it's I know that you
picked this up from daycare because for me, I've definitely
experienced both when Rue has sort of been really placid
and gentle for most of her life and in situations
she's a bit more of like a follower. She's not
like a leader, right, So I see her with like
(11:44):
more dominant kids, she kind of falls into line, and
same as you. We Beck and I Goldie and her
have a little bit of a rough and tumble. I'm like,
push her back row and Beck's like push her back rough,
Like that's how we deal with it because we think
it's funny.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I also think that there's an element like we're not
saying fight them back, it's just it's okay to play
rough sometimes and yeah, yeah, yeah, the kid, you can
give it to them a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Exactly, especially when they're like your best friend that you
see all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Come on, like old He's probably like, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Sir.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
To you. But then I've also seen in those situations
like how distressing it is, like you said about the
parents of the bitters, with the parents who of the
kid that's like a little bit more rough and tumble.
And I would always just say their kids exactly, like Ashley,
their kids, like they don't understand, like this is how
they're expressing themselves, Like it's totally fine. But until like
(12:39):
I've now been in situations where Rue has kind of
like been a bit pushy, and I have just felt
this deep sense of failure inside me to see her
act that way. And then obviously during my pregnancy, her
demeanor has changed a little bit with me, Like I
think it's also just being a toddler, but it's very
hard because there's a lot of change going on, so
(12:59):
I don't know what it's actually down to. But she's
just learned really to say no and.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
To no because they're proving that they can be defiant
and there yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And I'll be like, don't hit mummy and she gets
very embarrassed. She's like, oh no. And then I asked
like daycare, I'm like, has her behavior changed? And they're like,
now she's an angel? So it just makes she doesn't
do it with Charlie in the situations in public places
where she's been a bit rough and tumble with her
friends or people that we know, like kids that she's
familiar with. I have felt like a drop of what
(13:33):
other parents must be feeling having a kid that is,
you know, super alpha, super rough and tumble, just a
bit more boisterous than the other kids. It was enough
for me to go I think we need to do
an episode on it, because even though we know, until
you're the parent of a child that does it, I
think there's no way to really understand how because parents
will leave places because their kid is acting up, which
(13:56):
I think is one way to do it, Like sometimes
I just need to.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You kind of have to though, I've got to remove
them from this situation that badly behaved with other children
and it could another child. Of course, you have to
leave but that.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Sucks, oh one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That would be so mortifying and you would just feel
so shit.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And it's a lot of like what am I doing
wrong as a parent, like exactly a nice people, why
does our kid act out like this?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And it is I know, different personalities.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Different personalities, And I think it's just really understanding that
our brains are still developing up until our early twenties. Right,
So toddler's age between one and three, think about how
long they've been a life, Like they're not getting empathy.
I think empathy is coming in at like four or
five years old. Some kids are younger, but just their
(14:48):
ability to like understand emotion or be capable of it.
If frud does something, I'm like, you go and say
sorry to her, but you know I meant to say that,
are you really? Because then they it's a false apology
and they don't really mean it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
That is true, right, I mean at all they.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Don't because Ru's like sorry, and I'm like, I know
that that's not the right way, but what is so true?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Because I literally will be like, no, you're not getting
it to you say sorry, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like that is not teaching them anything. At all. It's
just teaching them just to say whatever I need to
lie to get out of it. So they say instead
of that is to be like, hey, look at Kelly,
she's really upset at the moment. Yeah, do you think
that that's okay? We need to go and check on
her and make sure she's okay, and maybe we say
sorry that we made her sad. So that's kind of
(15:35):
how they tell you to do. It is like to
give them more of context. But Charlie laughs because he'll
come home and.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He'll be going, do you understand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I'll reasoning with my toddler. I'll be like, Rue, I
just need you to finish dinner. You haven't had much
food today. This is yummy, this is all of your
favorite things. Have this. Then we'll go read books. And
Charlie's just like, babe, she's a toddler, Like, he'll send
me these videos. Don't try and reason with your toddler.
And I'm like, what are I fucking's supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I kind of think it kind of works sometimes like
it does it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Or they just are like, mum seems a bit stressed,
maybe better than fall into play.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
No. I feel like also one day it will click.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
It will. Yeah, they learning.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So if we're displaying the right sort of behavior and
explaining things rather than just saying, eat your dinner, yeah,
you explain why to me. That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I agree because I remember when I was like younger,
maybe like early twenties, I met these kids and they
were just really emotionally intelligent and I kind of commented
on I can't remember where this was, but I remember
the parents said, we just never spoke to them like
they were babies. We always spoke to them like normally.
I think that obviously can work like resonate with some
kids more so than others. Yeah, but it's an interesting
(16:52):
way to kind of look at it, like I'm gonna
stick to my reasoning with my toddler, who's idea of
what I'm.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Talking Like, I one hundred percent always will reason with
Lenny and like explained him why. And when we were
setting up for Christmas, I don't know why this just
sprung into my mind, but it was quite funny. I
was letting them help up at my parents' house, but
like sort of around the back of the tree. And
then Evelyn was like, my mummy and Daddy let me
(17:19):
decorate our Christmas tree at home, and I said.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
The full sentences.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
They're a little bit nicer than I am, then I
guess a little bit more rational. Then she goes, can
I help with the tinsel? And I said, well, how
about we have a lesson in cool tones versus warm tones?
And why I'm not joking and you know you're laughing
at me. Guess what four year old now knows the
(17:45):
difference between cool tones and warm tones and can pick
them up.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That is really funny.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And she also asks me for my design ideas. Now
when she would like to help me with something, she'd
be like, I'd like you to teach me the design
ideas behind that, because I'm like, how about we just
sit down and have a look and map out where
the tinsel should go?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah? Right, yeah, okay, So giving the context, she's a
little bit older though, so she can probably comprehend that
a little bit more. Yeah, Len, I can. Lenn's pulling
out cool tones versus warmth Oh my god, no, But
I was like, he's a genius.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But okay, if we're using Christmas an example. He wanted
to help wrap the presence, and I explained to him
why he couldn't wrap the presents because he would do
an awful job because he doesn't have the skill set yet.
But then I explained to him and showed him the
whole process, and then he repeated a lot of the
things back to me and started placing the tape in
(18:41):
the correct spots.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Oh that's lovely. Yeah, he helped in the way that
he could help exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I just taught him that he was unable to help
me in other ways because he would do an awful job.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, that is true. I think of them.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
They're bad at things as well. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, well, it doesn't shock me.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
He'll be like, look at this drawing, so outside the lines.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
But outside the lines. I didn't realize how much of
like a control freak I am with like mess and
like neat playing.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh you bore, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And it's not like I push that onto her, But
I just watch her color and she's like, look at
Mowana and she's taken a purple crayon and scribbled all
over her.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It doesn't upset me unless that's the page that I'm coloring.
You can do whatever you want to your page, but
it's when they want to color with you get your
own page. I don't want your mess on my page,
or when you're playing blocks with them, and then they
try to like build a towel without the colors matching, and.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
What do you make them match the color?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You can build your own tower with whatever colors you want.
But my tower has matching colors, and my lego house
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, there's not a lot of them that makes sense
of the same.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I got in my control freak only with myself.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
A little bit. You were like fully paying me out,
and then over here you're like siphoning the colors so
that they can't have ugly towers that are.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Built for raising a pastel tower. I don't want a
bright orange brick in the.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Middle cool times, warm terms, got it. I want to
get back to the idea that your kid is a
bully or a bad kid. We know this isn't true, right.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Unless they're associated. If your child is pulling the legs
off bugs outside.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah they're probably gonna be a serial killer. But I
found a pretty informative piece on toddler bullying Weirdly on
like the Huggies website. There wasn't a lot about toddler's
being bullies because I don't think that they technically can be.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And also I think that it's a bit of a
non issue before they're at school.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I mean it is, but I think parents are suffering
with like the weight of it because think about how
crazy toddlers are and if you've got an especially spirited kid, or.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It can be a sign of neurodivergence because they don't have.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Any ways of communicating.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Communicating so they can bite here. Yeah, but yeah, you're right,
it could be really hard for parents because it could
exclude them, or if a child is removed from daycare
and you can't afford in any.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, what do you do?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
What do you do? I know, just for me on
a bill, on a.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Level, I feel really embarrassed. And it's like, I know
I shouldn't feel embarrassed because I know when my friend's
kids act out.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I don't care. I don't give as long as they parent,
that's the thing, right, as long as their parent.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
But I'll always send a message afterwards because I know
how mortifying it is saying like, hey, everything's sweet, they're kids.
But I know that even though people are telling you that,
you're still thinking I'm a fucking terrible parent. On something
like that. I just think, but you don't have a
kid that does that. I'm telling you from experience.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's but when he has like if
he's pushed or whatever his cousins, I just feel very
disappointed in him. I'm like, don't. Yeah, that is not
how we carry good.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
You're good at being like amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
This is on you.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You're a toddler who needs to learn.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Like this is you, bud, because that's not how we
treat people.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
No, which is good. No, but you really need separating it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You're giving me the right now.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Don't don't turn money off. So this piece was written
by Sally and McCormack. She's a Melbourne psych former teacher
and she's a mother of four, so she's, oh, she's
got to experience. She's got some experience. So in the
piece it asks us question, is it reasonable to attribute
bullying to a toddler? She says no. Developmentally, a toddler
is very ego centric. So they don't play with other children.
(22:37):
I think we see them as playing with other children,
but they may play next to other children. They don't
really understand the concept of sharing, which we know, and
they expect their needs to be met immediately, So if
they see a toy they want, they're going to grab it,
regardless of where it is, even if it's in someone's hand.
So this time of their lives is spent exploring and
experimenting in the world, but they are not capable of
(22:57):
seeing the situation from the perspective of So it's not
bullying because there's actually no intent to harm the other
person who's involved in the situation. But she did note
that it is possible that if these toddlers are not
directed through this phase appropriately, that the lesson they learn
is that bullying is a successful method of getting their
(23:18):
own way, And she did share some possible strategies to
help deal with this learning phase, and I thought that
was really interesting. So while we know that this is
just them kind of not being able to regulate, regulate
reason with their own behavior, they're just not like quite
got enough empathy to understand it from the other person's
point of view. It's all about them. They haven't yet
(23:40):
realized that they aren't the only ones navigating the world.
They think they are the main character of their lie.
Oh they are, but if we don't.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Actually guide guide them, they might be school yard bullies exactly.
That's a whole different part.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So I was like, whoa, Okay, thank god we're doing
this episode so we don't have bullies on our hands.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Lenny is very bossy, so he'll just come up to me.
So yeah, it's not that he'll push kids into doing something,
but he tries to force his fun. Bailly, not play
with me, Bailey, come in car, Bailly, do this or what.
I'm like, Darlan, you've asked him. He hasn't responded. You
cannot control the fun. But I was just thinking that
(24:20):
out of my head, and then I was thinking about
just saying to you that no, you can't color in
like that all. And I'm like, oh, I wonder.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Where he gets wondering it's a prom I know, tries
to control the fun from the good example of bullying
and young kids that I saw when I was like
doing this research and this is like you're four and
a half year olds with girls and then five year
olds with boys.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
That's generally the timing.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That it starts right. Something to watch out for exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
We'll do another episode on that, don't you worry. We're
getting closer to that age, so we're trying to prep ourselves.
An example of that would be I don't want them
to come to my birthday party. So that's the kind
of stuff that we have to look out for as parents.
So I think that's really interesting because someone who's like, well,
you don't have to do what you don't want to do,
everyone's fucking getting invited to his birthday party.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And let me tell you, I can't exclude one person.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's cool, right, So I think that's a good example
of kind of where it's.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, it's gone too far if people are so you
don't have to do what you don't want to do,
that you don't invite one person. And even if that
person they don't want to invite the miss because they're
bling you, well you're just as bad.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Then because you're excluding me, isn't it. There's been an
argument recently in like parenting stuff it's like you shouldn't
have to invite the whole class, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Like, oh, I know there's thirty kids in a class.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Well where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Then I just don't do birthday parties with your school
friends or just like invite your besties. Yeah, okay, don't
invite half the class though, And then leave the other half.
That's so mean.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Okay, So I want to get through these strategies to
deal with this learning phase as they're navigating these emotion
So giving them a feelings vocabulary, which is kind of
similar to what we were talking about before. Understanding that
the behavior that they're acting out is due to frustration
on the part of the toddler who does not have
a way of expressing their feelings. So saying things like, hey,
you're feeling angry right now because you can't play with
(26:06):
this truck, So like validating their feelings, but also have
you got that feelings book? It's like got a sense
of love hearts that goes all the way back and
it's like colored oh yes, yes, and it describes each feeling.
So that's one that I'm trying to put into the
rotation a lot more now because I know that they're
in this phase of like naming understanding what their feelings are.
(26:27):
Another one which I do a lot, distract the child.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I do it with everything everything.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Distraction is it's your number one tool and the kit
let me tell you divert distract. Yeah, So basically just
giving them a different toy if they're angry, about something.
And I made a note here saying at this age,
it's not a reward for poor behavior, but it's a
way of avoiding or reinforcing an inappropriate display of anger
or frustration. Because I think that's a really key distinction,
(26:54):
Like a lot of us can feel like we'll just
play with this one that you're just like pacifying them
but distracting them. And yeah, you're just trying to move
it along. And let's not get too hung up on
this toy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's just a different toy. It's not like you're like, here,
let's go to the shops and you can choose a
new toy because you're so upset that you can't play
with that one. No, No, it's just hey, what about
this one?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Exactly. Love that we touched on this before remove the
child from the situation. They actually said that time out
can be an effective tool for cares of a toddler
in serious situations, so that they can understand like the
consequence of their behavior, so biting, pushing a kid that
ended quite badly, like you know, anything that is quite
a serious consequence. You can do it like that, And
(27:34):
they say to do a minute for every year, like
have how old they are, so lem would be three minutes.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I've only ever done time out once and it was
for one minute.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, but that was probably when he was like one, right,
or two?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I think two? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So there also may be times where the victim needs
to be removed. So you know, if your kid is
in the situation and it's just making it worse from
the other side, get their kid out.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That doesn't sound very fair.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Well, it's if they're being seriously hurt or they're like
really fearful. Taking them away for a short stint to
make them feel safe is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
But why should you have to take your kid away?
If there's another kid bullying them.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And their parent isn't present, then you.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kidd is this?
Get it out?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Get them out. The next one is suggest alternative behavior,
So when the child is starting to calm down, offer
different ways for them to express their feelings. For example,
tell mummy what you want, or gently hold my hand
and take me over there, or no, it's mine. So
like waiting for them to calm down before you kind
of try to rationalize why or suggest something else like
(28:41):
that's something I have to be so aware of like
crua B to ten.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
And I'm like, done, come on, I'm not that bad,
and they're like, fine'll.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Just go over here, and she's like, I'm in the
depths of my despair right now and you're trying to
talk me off the cliff, Like I'm up here. Let
me just like carry out, have it out. So she
finishes by saying, just like, the main message is to
recognize and remember that this is a normal developmental phase
and that children go through this at varying degrees. So like,
comparing our kids is never going to end well for anyone.
(29:11):
Everyone's progressing at different stages, and that no toddler intends
to bully another person. They are simply not capable of
thinking that way. But we do need to address the
behaviors because we want them to be able to learn
appropriate social skills and more positive ways of meeting their
own needs. So I thought that was like pretty good.
It's stuff we know, right, But it's just like reinforcing
(29:34):
reminding ourselves to give adequate kind of guidance when things
are going a bit pair shaped, which is when it
goes to emotion.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
All the time, when it comes to the kids playing together. Yeah, yeah,
and also rare to have a group of kids playing
really nicely together for an extended period of time. And
you know what, if they were I'd probably be a
little bits ined. I'd be like, are you all duds?
Where are the personality guys?
Speaker 1 (29:59):
But I I will say, if you've been out with
it group of girlfriends and their friends or guy friends, whatever,
the parents that you're with and their kids been a
bit rowdy, shoot them a message after the play date,
just be like, hey, reassuring you.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Don't you think that's just like signifying that you saw
that their kid was being awful. Well, I think attendant
doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I think it's pretty obvious. No, just to make sure,
because I think that reassurance is like something you can
do easily to remind them like, hey, oh they were
really online today, weren't they. But like I just wanted
to say, like you handled it perfectly. There's nothing more
that you could have done in that situation. They're just
kids that aren't great at expressing themselves and they just
don't know what the fuck they're doing. But like you
handled it perfectly, just reassuring them like how they handled
(30:41):
the situation was Yeah, and it's actually all on those dummies.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's they're like, why are they so unusual?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Why are they someone here?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
They're a bit silly, aren't they like undeveloped brain?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, shame for them?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
All right, Well, this episode was produced by myself. Kelly
mccaroan actually did nothing, but you know whatever, we just
both claim every episode and the other person that did
a lot was Kyra sels me over here, production by
the delightful Madeline.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Joanna, And we just wanted to say thanks for sticking around.
Share the pot on your socials.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Please do your friends.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
With bad kids. I'm sure they need to hear it.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Don't say anything, just be like, stand to the met
and go.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Just drop them a link. Is my toddler a bully?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Thought you might need this, thought you could relate.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
We'll see you next week. Shitters, by bye,
We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land we're recording
on today.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Why should you have to take your kid away? If
there's another kid.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Bullying them their parent isn't present.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Then you arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kid
is this? Who the mad shit is this?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Get it out?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome back to Eat, Sleep Shit, repeat your
unhinged podcast about the madness that is novelhood and everything
in between. I'm km according to the script.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
That right, that's right, I wrote it, and I'm krs
k Resells. In case you miss last week's episode, we
had a bit of a moan about newborn's ahead of mine,
newborn arriving.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh boy, has it arrived? We won't know, we will
at the time of recording.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
You're unsure at this time, and I'm not sure if
I should laugh or cry, because there's quite a lot
that I forgot about. But it's just like riding a
bike ride.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I actually think it probably is yeah to be but
you think, oh, I forgot that they shit nine times
a day. But you're like, oh, it's ingrained in my
memory how to swaddle in.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, I had to hold someone's baby the other day
and I was like feeding her, and then I was like,
do I need to burp her? And her mom was like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
They require the burbs on the show today. Is my
toddler a bully? Well, it's easy to be encouraging of
other parents when their kids are acting up. Oh it's
not your fault, it's okay, or kids go through this.
When you witness bad behavior from your toddler, it is
really confronting and often you can't help but feel like
you've failed. So can toddlers be bullies? And should we
(01:37):
be a little bit concerned? We're getting to the bottom
of it today.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Now. A little reminder, we have pre recorded in the
lead up for this baby coming out of hopefully my vagina,
so we're not doing Pek and Pit because we thought
they'd kind of like age but terribly. But don't worry.
Pek and Pit will be back as soon as we
are back to our regular recording schedules, So hang in there,
Pek and Pit lovers. Toddler development is such a tricky time.
(02:02):
They're suddenly mobile, with likes and dislikes and a very
limited but spirited vocabulary to tell them when you get
it wrong. Alongside this, their engagement with the world and
their socialization with others increases rapidly. You start to get
excited by the fact that your toddler can now play
with others, and then comes that heartbreaking moment you witness
your toddler being quote unquote bullied by another child or worse,
(02:26):
them being the bully. Seeing these behaviors can be super
triggering as a parent. For instance, watching another kid a
certain behavior over yours can awaken the Mama bear inside
of you, maybe even trigger some of your feelings around
being picked on as a kid, and you want to
jump up or jump in and say something. Or your
sweet kid is the alpha at the playdates, snatching, hitting,
(02:47):
biting and forcing you to leave. It's mortifying, no matter
how encouraging the other parents are, and you leave feeling
horrified and wondering, how did I end up with a
bad kid?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Why did I create a monster?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I'm a good person and I swear so cal Have
you been in situations where you've seen another toddler bully.
I'm using it loosely just for the context of what
we're talking about. Bully len or Len maybe being a
little bit of a bully.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I think because of Len's size. He would be hard
to bully for other toddlers because he's a big boy.
He's ginormous. So I haven't, which I actually think is
probably a good thing. Yeah, because I really struggle with
my own self control, and so if I saw a
child doing something to Len, I think I would really struggle, Yeah,
(03:35):
not to immediately step in and start parenting the other
kid and shouting and calling the kid names. Potentially. Yeah,
it's in my nature. I'm a bier, Like I'm a dog.
I bark a lot, and my bite is hard to
so I just feel like it's probably my own impulse
control and self control sucks, so which you know, I
will have to get better.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, definitely. I think it's like ingrained and answer. All
we want to do is protect them. So if you
see that, like you just automatically react in a way.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, they've been just like i'd say, very normal circumstances
like at those place and things. Yeah, if a little
kid's trying to grab something off Lenny, but a big kid, yeah,
it's always a lot older. Yeah, I guess because of
his life. But I'll just be like no, no, We're
just going to wait for him to finish playing that Lenny,
once you finish playing with that yeah, or you know,
(04:24):
now it's your turn to share the toy or whatever
it is.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I find that it's also really dependent on how
present the other parent is of the kid that's kind
of maybe a little bit like rough and tumble, because
I feel like if the parent is there, I'm watching
it and kind of intercepting, you know, you're like, oh,
that's so fine, don't worry, like blah blah blah. Okay.
I'm using a personal example here, like at our local Westfield,
(04:49):
there's this dad who always brings his kids to the.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Playground, the one on the top floor that yeah, they.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Play one and the dad sits there on his phone
the whole time. And his daughter, she's a rough and
tumble and she like fully pushes the other girls. So
we then have to parent that kid. That doesn't make
us feel good, and we're just.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Like, control your kid.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
So I really think how much the parent is parenting,
and that situation has a bit of an impact as
well on how much you can tolerate.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, remember that boat that I talked about. I went
on with all of those kids, and you were like,
what they didn't have life jackets. And I had to
go up and get the parents because I was like,
these aren't my kids. They were older. Yeah, And I
was also like, I'm not here to tell these kids
what to do. So I actually went upstairs to get
(05:37):
the parents and I just said, hey, can someone come
and help. Your kids aren't sharing? And then they didn't
believe me, and I'm like, Okay, why would I be
lying about.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Such a thing would have fun?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
I just need to not be parenting. You're the ones
that have left your kids to their own devices, literally,
and then they're not sharing with another kid. I'm sure
we can all agree that children should share. Please come
and assist. I'm not.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I really think it has a big impact on it
how well you can function, and that situation when your
kid's being picked on is how much the other parent
cares so that you don't have to feel like your
parents are overreaching.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
As well or also like then, I guess how sympathetic
you'll be towards certain circumstances. Because there was an incident
last year where there was a bitter in Lenny's room.
I remember this, the infamous bitter.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeh, I never tell you the name, but you know that.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know that they're there, and this was before they're
really talking, so even the kid can't tell you who
it is. But it was really awful. Like both Lenn
and his cousin Wesley the Puff go to the same
school and they were both repeatedly bitten and really really
bad bite it's like bad bruises. First, they didn't want
(06:52):
my child to be scared about going to daycare. Oh
I'm going to get bitten.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
It's a safe space you want them to find going.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Secondly, I didn't want to encourage that sort of behavior
with him. The modeling other children's behavior is so common,
so there was a bunch of different things. And also
I was just annoyed that my kid was getting bitten,
and I talked about it on socials and I had
some parents reach out and just say because I was
probably like a little bit angry at the time, you know,
(07:20):
it's really bad to be the parent of a bitter
And I was like, oh my god, absolutely, because Luke
and I have talked about that before, as we were
both bullied younger. We've talked about how it would be
worse to find out that our child is actually the bullied,
totally bully whatever you would say, because it's just awful.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, yeah, you feel inherently that you've failed as a parent.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That you've created a bad person. And it's funny because
the educators at daycare can't tell parents who the child is,
which you know, the reasons are that parents can then
get involved in I just think, guys, they're kids, like,
please don't go and yell at a child. Then I'm
the one that just said that. I so, but it's.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Funny the reason why they don't tell us.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I found out who it was, though, and it actually
made me feel better. I don't know why, but I
felt like because I knew the kid, it was better
to put a face to the name.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Well, often you think it's going to be like this
kid that you don't even know about, the bad boy
or gone. And I was like, oh, it's your best friend.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Or it was just he wasn't their best friend. But
he was a really cute little like he's a nice
enough kid. Yeah, and there was a lot of stuff
going on with the older class. Whoever, and my niece
is in where even worse, like he was holding her
down and biting her. One day she was napping and
he pulled her pants down and bit her on the bottom,
which I actually said. I was like, Okay, that's that's resault.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, that's not.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Cool, And where the hell were the teachers to allow
all of that to happen. But it turns out so
both of the boys their parents were going through something
pretty hectic, and it goes to show that sometimes it
can be really indicative of things that are going on
at home.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, that's such a good point, something that I hadn't
even thought of.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And I truly just do not believe that children are
bad or inherently evil. Of course, there are exceptions to
the rule with born sociopaths and that sort of thing,
and I just think that they're expressing themselves in ways
that they haven't been taught not to. And I don't
yell loudly often I'm a yeller, But the few times
(09:20):
that I have absolutely lost my shit is when Lenny
has hurt. That's just, to me, the biggest thing that
kids we do not treat other people badly or animals.
So twice Lenny has kicked the cat. When I tell
you that I had not yelled that loudly before at him,
he started to bare his eyes out, which then made
(09:41):
me feel terrible because I scared him so much. You
know what, though he hasn't done it again. Yeah, because
I yelled so loudly. The cat was here first.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
That's what I always say. The rue hour was here first,
being nice to him.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Don't kick the cat like, do not kick animal. And
a few times he's pushed his cousins. One time he
almost pushed Wesley down this ste and I think, once again,
it comes back to his size. I think when a
child is bigger, it's really easy for them to assert
their dominance without even realizing that they're doing it by
being a little bit pushy.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
They don't realize their strength.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So that's why in some cases we're not supposed to
do this. But I'll be like bloody pushing back.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I know, I'm fox sake, stand up for yourself because
it goes I'm like the same size, pushing back, pushing back.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
It's always like the closest people that he's with. I
think though, Yeah, they's like an a of.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Safety, familiarity and who they're kind of acting out against.
In our case, that hasn't been random.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
No, it hasn't been random at all. In Len's case,
the only person that wasn't family including Percy that he
pushed once was Bailey, Ashley's youngest two's six months older
than him, so yeah, same age, and I got so angry,
but actually was like, hell, they're little kids, They're gonna
push each other, and like it's okay.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I haven't luckily had to deal with anything really yeah yet,
very just basic level, normal toddler stuff. He's pretty gentle
overall and very caring. You were saying that Rue has
even hit you.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
She has. She has, and it's not like super hard
or anything like that, but it's I know that you
picked this up from daycare because for me, I've definitely
experienced both when Rue has sort of been really placid
and gentle for most of her life and in situations
she's a bit more of like a follower. She's not
like a leader, right, So I see her with like
(11:44):
more dominant kids, she kind of falls into line, and
same as you. We Beck and I Goldie and her
have a little bit of a rough and tumble. I'm like,
push her back row and Beck's like push her back rough,
Like that's how we deal with it because we think
it's funny.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I also think that there's an element like we're not
saying fight them back, it's just it's okay to play
rough sometimes and yeah, yeah, yeah, the kid, you can
give it to them a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Exactly, especially when they're like your best friend that you
see all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Come on, like old He's probably like, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Sir.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
To you. But then I've also seen in those situations
like how distressing it is, like you said about the
parents of the bitters, with the parents who of the
kid that's like a little bit more rough and tumble.
And I would always just say their kids exactly, like Ashley,
their kids, like they don't understand, like this is how
they're expressing themselves, Like it's totally fine. But until like
(12:39):
I've now been in situations where Rue has kind of
like been a bit pushy, and I have just felt
this deep sense of failure inside me to see her
act that way. And then obviously during my pregnancy, her
demeanor has changed a little bit with me, Like I
think it's also just being a toddler, but it's very
hard because there's a lot of change going on, so
(12:59):
I don't know what it's actually down to. But she's
just learned really to say no and.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
To no because they're proving that they can be defiant
and there yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And I'll be like, don't hit mummy and she gets
very embarrassed. She's like, oh no. And then I asked
like daycare, I'm like, has her behavior changed? And they're like,
now she's an angel? So it just makes she doesn't
do it with Charlie in the situations in public places
where she's been a bit rough and tumble with her
friends or people that we know, like kids that she's
familiar with. I have felt like a drop of what
(13:33):
other parents must be feeling having a kid that is,
you know, super alpha, super rough and tumble, just a
bit more boisterous than the other kids. It was enough
for me to go I think we need to do
an episode on it, because even though we know, until
you're the parent of a child that does it, I
think there's no way to really understand how because parents
will leave places because their kid is acting up, which
(13:56):
I think is one way to do it, Like sometimes
I just need to.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You kind of have to though, I've got to remove
them from this situation that badly behaved with other children
and it could another child. Of course, you have to
leave but that.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Sucks, oh one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
That would be so mortifying and you would just feel
so shit.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And it's a lot of like what am I doing
wrong as a parent, like exactly a nice people, why
does our kid act out like this?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And it is I know, different personalities.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Different personalities, And I think it's just really understanding that
our brains are still developing up until our early twenties. Right,
So toddler's age between one and three, think about how
long they've been a life, Like they're not getting empathy.
I think empathy is coming in at like four or
five years old. Some kids are younger, but just their
(14:48):
ability to like understand emotion or be capable of it.
If frud does something, I'm like, you go and say
sorry to her, but you know I meant to say that,
are you really? Because then they it's a false apology
and they don't really mean it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
That is true, right, I mean at all they.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Don't because Ru's like sorry, and I'm like, I know
that that's not the right way, but what is so true?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Because I literally will be like, no, you're not getting
it to you say sorry, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like that is not teaching them anything. At all. It's
just teaching them just to say whatever I need to
lie to get out of it. So they say instead
of that is to be like, hey, look at Kelly,
she's really upset at the moment. Yeah, do you think
that that's okay? We need to go and check on
her and make sure she's okay, and maybe we say
sorry that we made her sad. So that's kind of
(15:35):
how they tell you to do. It is like to
give them more of context. But Charlie laughs because he'll
come home and.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He'll be going, do you understand.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I'll reasoning with my toddler. I'll be like, Rue, I
just need you to finish dinner. You haven't had much
food today. This is yummy, this is all of your
favorite things. Have this. Then we'll go read books. And
Charlie's just like, babe, she's a toddler, Like, he'll send
me these videos. Don't try and reason with your toddler.
And I'm like, what are I fucking's supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I kind of think it kind of works sometimes like
it does it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Or they just are like, mum seems a bit stressed,
maybe better than fall into play.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
No. I feel like also one day it will click.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
It will. Yeah, they learning.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So if we're displaying the right sort of behavior and
explaining things rather than just saying, eat your dinner, yeah,
you explain why to me. That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I agree because I remember when I was like younger,
maybe like early twenties, I met these kids and they
were just really emotionally intelligent and I kind of commented
on I can't remember where this was, but I remember
the parents said, we just never spoke to them like
they were babies. We always spoke to them like normally.
I think that obviously can work like resonate with some
kids more so than others. Yeah, but it's an interesting
(16:52):
way to kind of look at it, like I'm gonna
stick to my reasoning with my toddler, who's idea of
what I'm.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Talking Like, I one hundred percent always will reason with
Lenny and like explained him why. And when we were
setting up for Christmas, I don't know why this just
sprung into my mind, but it was quite funny. I
was letting them help up at my parents' house, but
like sort of around the back of the tree. And
then Evelyn was like, my mummy and Daddy let me
(17:19):
decorate our Christmas tree at home, and I said.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
The full sentences.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
They're a little bit nicer than I am, then I
guess a little bit more rational. Then she goes, can
I help with the tinsel? And I said, well, how
about we have a lesson in cool tones versus warm tones?
And why I'm not joking and you know you're laughing
at me. Guess what four year old now knows the
(17:45):
difference between cool tones and warm tones and can pick
them up.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That is really funny.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And she also asks me for my design ideas. Now
when she would like to help me with something, she'd
be like, I'd like you to teach me the design
ideas behind that, because I'm like, how about we just
sit down and have a look and map out where
the tinsel should go?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah? Right, yeah, okay, So giving the context, she's a
little bit older though, so she can probably comprehend that
a little bit more. Yeah, Len, I can. Lenn's pulling
out cool tones versus warmth Oh my god, no, But
I was like, he's a genius.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
But okay, if we're using Christmas an example. He wanted
to help wrap the presence, and I explained to him
why he couldn't wrap the presents because he would do
an awful job because he doesn't have the skill set yet.
But then I explained to him and showed him the
whole process, and then he repeated a lot of the
things back to me and started placing the tape in
(18:41):
the correct spots.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Oh that's lovely. Yeah, he helped in the way that
he could help exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I just taught him that he was unable to help
me in other ways because he would do an awful job.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, that is true. I think of them.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
They're bad at things as well. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, well, it doesn't shock me.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
He'll be like, look at this drawing, so outside the lines.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
But outside the lines. I didn't realize how much of
like a control freak I am with like mess and
like neat playing.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Oh you bore, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And it's not like I push that onto her, But
I just watch her color and she's like, look at
Mowana and she's taken a purple crayon and scribbled all
over her.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It doesn't upset me unless that's the page that I'm coloring.
You can do whatever you want to your page, but
it's when they want to color with you get your
own page. I don't want your mess on my page,
or when you're playing blocks with them, and then they
try to like build a towel without the colors matching, and.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
What do you make them match the color?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
You can build your own tower with whatever colors you want.
But my tower has matching colors, and my lego house
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, there's not a lot of them that makes sense
of the same.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I got in my control freak only with myself.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
A little bit. You were like fully paying me out,
and then over here you're like siphoning the colors so
that they can't have ugly towers that are.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Built for raising a pastel tower. I don't want a
bright orange brick in the.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Middle cool times, warm terms, got it. I want to
get back to the idea that your kid is a
bully or a bad kid. We know this isn't true, right.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Unless they're associated. If your child is pulling the legs
off bugs outside.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah they're probably gonna be a serial killer. But I
found a pretty informative piece on toddler bullying Weirdly on
like the Huggies website. There wasn't a lot about toddler's
being bullies because I don't think that they technically can be.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And also I think that it's a bit of a
non issue before they're at school.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I mean it is, but I think parents are suffering
with like the weight of it because think about how
crazy toddlers are and if you've got an especially spirited kid, or.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It can be a sign of neurodivergence because they don't have.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Any ways of communicating.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Communicating so they can bite here. Yeah, but yeah, you're right,
it could be really hard for parents because it could
exclude them, or if a child is removed from daycare
and you can't afford in any.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, what do you do?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
What do you do? I know, just for me on
a bill, on a.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Level, I feel really embarrassed. And it's like, I know
I shouldn't feel embarrassed because I know when my friend's
kids act out.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I don't care. I don't give as long as they parent,
that's the thing, right, as long as their parent.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
But I'll always send a message afterwards because I know
how mortifying it is saying like, hey, everything's sweet, they're kids.
But I know that even though people are telling you that,
you're still thinking I'm a fucking terrible parent. On something
like that. I just think, but you don't have a
kid that does that. I'm telling you from experience.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's but when he has like if
he's pushed or whatever his cousins, I just feel very
disappointed in him. I'm like, don't. Yeah, that is not
how we carry good.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
You're good at being like amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
This is on you.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
You're a toddler who needs to learn.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Like this is you, bud, because that's not how we
treat people.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
No, which is good. No, but you really need separating it.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You're giving me the right now.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Don't don't turn money off. So this piece was written
by Sally and McCormack. She's a Melbourne psych former teacher
and she's a mother of four, so she's, oh, she's
got to experience. She's got some experience. So in the
piece it asks us question, is it reasonable to attribute
bullying to a toddler? She says no. Developmentally, a toddler
is very ego centric. So they don't play with other children.
(22:37):
I think we see them as playing with other children,
but they may play next to other children. They don't
really understand the concept of sharing, which we know, and
they expect their needs to be met immediately, So if
they see a toy they want, they're going to grab it,
regardless of where it is, even if it's in someone's hand.
So this time of their lives is spent exploring and
experimenting in the world, but they are not capable of
(22:57):
seeing the situation from the perspective of So it's not
bullying because there's actually no intent to harm the other
person who's involved in the situation. But she did note
that it is possible that if these toddlers are not
directed through this phase appropriately, that the lesson they learn
is that bullying is a successful method of getting their
(23:18):
own way, And she did share some possible strategies to
help deal with this learning phase, and I thought that
was really interesting. So while we know that this is
just them kind of not being able to regulate, regulate
reason with their own behavior, they're just not like quite
got enough empathy to understand it from the other person's
point of view. It's all about them. They haven't yet
(23:40):
realized that they aren't the only ones navigating the world.
They think they are the main character of their lie.
Oh they are, but if we don't.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Actually guide guide them, they might be school yard bullies exactly.
That's a whole different part.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So I was like, whoa, Okay, thank god we're doing
this episode so we don't have bullies on our hands.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Lenny is very bossy, so he'll just come up to me.
So yeah, it's not that he'll push kids into doing something,
but he tries to force his fun. Bailly, not play
with me, Bailey, come in car, Bailly, do this or what.
I'm like, Darlan, you've asked him. He hasn't responded. You
cannot control the fun. But I was just thinking that
(24:20):
out of my head, and then I was thinking about
just saying to you that no, you can't color in
like that all. And I'm like, oh, I wonder.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Where he gets wondering it's a prom I know, tries
to control the fun from the good example of bullying
and young kids that I saw when I was like
doing this research and this is like you're four and
a half year olds with girls and then five year
olds with boys.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
That's generally the timing.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
That it starts right. Something to watch out for exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
We'll do another episode on that, don't you worry. We're
getting closer to that age, so we're trying to prep ourselves.
An example of that would be I don't want them
to come to my birthday party. So that's the kind
of stuff that we have to look out for as parents.
So I think that's really interesting because someone who's like, well,
you don't have to do what you don't want to do,
everyone's fucking getting invited to his birthday party.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And let me tell you, I can't exclude one person.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's cool, right, So I think that's a good example
of kind of where it's.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, it's gone too far if people are so you
don't have to do what you don't want to do,
that you don't invite one person. And even if that
person they don't want to invite the miss because they're
bling you, well you're just as bad.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Then because you're excluding me, isn't it. There's been an
argument recently in like parenting stuff it's like you shouldn't
have to invite the whole class, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Like, oh, I know there's thirty kids in a class.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Well where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Then I just don't do birthday parties with your school
friends or just like invite your besties. Yeah, okay, don't
invite half the class though, And then leave the other half.
That's so mean.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Okay, So I want to get through these strategies to
deal with this learning phase as they're navigating these emotion
So giving them a feelings vocabulary, which is kind of
similar to what we were talking about before. Understanding that
the behavior that they're acting out is due to frustration
on the part of the toddler who does not have
a way of expressing their feelings. So saying things like, hey,
you're feeling angry right now because you can't play with
(26:06):
this truck, So like validating their feelings, but also have
you got that feelings book? It's like got a sense
of love hearts that goes all the way back and
it's like colored oh yes, yes, and it describes each feeling.
So that's one that I'm trying to put into the
rotation a lot more now because I know that they're
in this phase of like naming understanding what their feelings are.
(26:27):
Another one which I do a lot, distract the child.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
I do it with everything everything.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Distraction is it's your number one tool and the kit
let me tell you divert distract. Yeah, So basically just
giving them a different toy if they're angry, about something.
And I made a note here saying at this age,
it's not a reward for poor behavior, but it's a
way of avoiding or reinforcing an inappropriate display of anger
or frustration. Because I think that's a really key distinction,
(26:54):
Like a lot of us can feel like we'll just
play with this one that you're just like pacifying them
but distracting them. And yeah, you're just trying to move
it along. And let's not get too hung up on
this toy.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It's just a different toy. It's not like you're like, here,
let's go to the shops and you can choose a
new toy because you're so upset that you can't play
with that one. No, No, it's just hey, what about
this one?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Exactly. Love that we touched on this before remove the
child from the situation. They actually said that time out
can be an effective tool for cares of a toddler
in serious situations, so that they can understand like the
consequence of their behavior, so biting, pushing a kid that
ended quite badly, like you know, anything that is quite
a serious consequence. You can do it like that, And
(27:34):
they say to do a minute for every year, like
have how old they are, so lem would be three minutes.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I've only ever done time out once and it was
for one minute.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, but that was probably when he was like one, right,
or two?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I think two? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
So there also may be times where the victim needs
to be removed. So you know, if your kid is
in the situation and it's just making it worse from
the other side, get their kid out.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That doesn't sound very fair.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Well, it's if they're being seriously hurt or they're like
really fearful. Taking them away for a short stint to
make them feel safe is a good thing.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
But why should you have to take your kid away?
If there's another kid bullying them.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And their parent isn't present, then you.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Arc up and start shouting, Oh, who's kidd is this?
Get it out?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Get them out. The next one is suggest alternative behavior,
So when the child is starting to calm down, offer
different ways for them to express their feelings. For example,
tell mummy what you want, or gently hold my hand
and take me over there, or no, it's mine. So
like waiting for them to calm down before you kind
of try to rationalize why or suggest something else like
(28:41):
that's something I have to be so aware of like
crua B to ten.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
And I'm like, done, come on, I'm not that bad,
and they're like, fine'll.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Just go over here, and she's like, I'm in the
depths of my despair right now and you're trying to
talk me off the cliff, Like I'm up here. Let
me just like carry out, have it out. So she
finishes by saying, just like, the main message is to
recognize and remember that this is a normal developmental phase
and that children go through this at varying degrees. So like,
comparing our kids is never going to end well for anyone.
(29:11):
Everyone's progressing at different stages, and that no toddler intends
to bully another person. They are simply not capable of
thinking that way. But we do need to address the
behaviors because we want them to be able to learn
appropriate social skills and more positive ways of meeting their
own needs. So I thought that was like pretty good.
It's stuff we know, right, But it's just like reinforcing
(29:34):
reminding ourselves to give adequate kind of guidance when things
are going a bit pair shaped, which is when it
goes to emotion.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
All the time, when it comes to the kids playing together. Yeah, yeah,
and also rare to have a group of kids playing
really nicely together for an extended period of time. And
you know what, if they were I'd probably be a
little bits ined. I'd be like, are you all duds?
Where are the personality guys?
Speaker 1 (29:59):
But I I will say, if you've been out with
it group of girlfriends and their friends or guy friends, whatever,
the parents that you're with and their kids been a
bit rowdy, shoot them a message after the play date,
just be like, hey, reassuring you.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Don't you think that's just like signifying that you saw
that their kid was being awful. Well, I think attendant
doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I think it's pretty obvious. No, just to make sure,
because I think that reassurance is like something you can
do easily to remind them like, hey, oh they were
really online today, weren't they. But like I just wanted
to say, like you handled it perfectly. There's nothing more
that you could have done in that situation. They're just
kids that aren't great at expressing themselves and they just
don't know what the fuck they're doing. But like you
handled it perfectly, just reassuring them like how they handled
(30:41):
the situation was Yeah, and it's actually all on those dummies.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's they're like, why are they so unusual?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Why are they someone here?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
They're a bit silly, aren't they like undeveloped brain?
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, shame for them?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
All right, Well, this episode was produced by myself. Kelly
mccaroan actually did nothing, but you know whatever, we just
both claim every episode and the other person that did
a lot was Kyra sels me over here, production by
the delightful Madeline.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Joanna, And we just wanted to say thanks for sticking around.
Share the pot on your socials.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Please do your friends.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
With bad kids. I'm sure they need to hear it.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Don't say anything, just be like, stand to the met
and go.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Just drop them a link. Is my toddler a bully?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Thought you might need this, thought you could relate.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
We'll see you next week. Shitters, by bye,
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