January 11, 2024 • 32 mins
Ultraman World Champion. Ironman. Lifelong learner. A fierce litigation lawyer, Adam Grant has made a name for himself in and out of the courtroom.
Adam was born in Phoenix, Arizona but grew up in La Jolla, Calif. It was here where his cultivation for not only his gift for gab but also his enjoyment for the endurance sports had been planted. He made his way up to the Los Angeles area with the love of his life. Once here, he pursued a job in a law firm and entered law school to begin his path into the world where he uses all the experience and knowledge that he has amassed for the good of his clients.
Where did his skills for oral advocacy and quick thinking come from? What advice does he give to his clients? What are his plans for retirement?
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Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:00):
From Los Angeles, this is the Echelon Radio
Network.
Brian Hemsworth (00:04):
Hi, and welcome back to another edition of the
Echelon Radio Podcast. I'm BrianHemsworth. And today I have in
our studio, Attorneyextraordinaire, Adam Grant.
Adam, thanks for coming intoday. Appreciate it.
Adam Grant (00:24):
Wonderful to be here. Thank you.
Brian Hemsworth (00:25):
So Adam, I wanted to start, a lot of us in
the business community. We knowyou, we we've been aware of your
work. We know you fromnetworking. And we know about
some of your other activitiesoutside of the legal world. But
what I haven't necessarily heardand I thought a great place for
us to start is the beginning.
Where are you from? Where'd yougrow up?
Adam Grant (00:48):
So I was born in Phoenix, Arizona in March of
1964. Grew up there and went toelementary school, middle
school, beginning of highschool, and then moved to San
Diego and then up to LA butPhoenix, Arizona. That's my
roots.
Brian Hemsworth (01:07):
Phoenix. So when you went to San Diego about
when was that?
Adam Grant (01:10):
That would be in June 1980.
Brian Hemsworth (01:13):
So 80 you would have been high school?
Adam Grant (01:15):
Yeah, about 16 at the time.
Brian Hemsworth (01:17):
And whereabouts in San Diego.
Adam Grant (01:19):
It was really difficult. My parents decided
that La Jolla needs to be theplace to move to. So yeah, it
was extremely rough moving. Welived on top of Mount Soledad in
La Jolla and about three milesfrom the beach. So I spent as
much time as possible when Iwasn't in school, riding my bike
(01:42):
down the mountain and going toeither Pacific Beach, or all the
way into La Jolla and thenriding back up.
Brian Hemsworth (01:48):
Oh, wow. Wow.
So you were actually doing a lotof that activity early on in
your life.
Adam Grant (01:53):
Yeah, very, very early on. So and when I first
started to do that, moving toSan Diego, it was on a beach
cruiser. So no gear,
Brian Hemsworth (02:03):
no gears and a heavy bike
Adam Grant (02:05):
and going uphill for miles. So it was a lot of fun.
Brian Hemsworth (02:08):
So it was a training bike.
Adam Grant (02:09):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Brian Hemsworth (02:11):
Yeah. And you said 1980?
Adam Grant (02:12):
Yeah. It was then.
Yeah.
Brian Hemsworth (02:14):
So ironically, we were in San Diego at the same
time. I was at San Diego State.
Adam Grant (02:18):
Go Aztecs
Brian Hemsworth (02:19):
In the 80s.
Yeah. But everybody says wasthat the one that's you know,
outside La Jolla and I go no,that's that's the other one. If
San Diego State was out in LaJolla we would have never
graduated. It's the smart onesthat go to the one in in La
Jolla on that. So So then whenyou came up, came up to LA
approximately, when was that?
Adam Grant (02:38):
Well, I graduated from that school in La Jolla. UC
San Diego. I was a Triton.
Brian Hemsworth (02:44):
So you he's one of the smart guys.
Adam Grant (02:46):
So I graduated from UC San Diego in 1986. And then
moved up to North Hollywood,actually, and as I'm fond of
saying, moved in with my thengirlfriend now wife.
Brian Hemsworth (03:00):
Very good. And was that for law school that you
came up?
Adam Grant (03:04):
Yeah, it was well no no. And if truth be told it was
for Joyce. Ah, so but yes, I wasgoing to go
Brian Hemsworth (03:11):
for a more important reason,
Adam Grant (03:12):
way more important way more important. So I was
we're definitely going to bemoving in together because we
had been dating since I was 17.
Wow. And I got a job actually.
Because we were moving up. I wasmoving up there. I got a job in
Los Angeles, working in a lawfirm, just really as a file
clerk. But it was a familyfriend who connected me and the
(03:36):
idea was actually took a yearoff between graduating from UC
San Diego and starting atSouthwestern University Law
School. But while it freaked mydad out thinking, oh, you know,
yeah, Adams never gonna go backto school last year. Yeah, of
course, that was not the case.
It was more. Okay. Now I'm goingto be in a law firm, really
(03:56):
seeing what's going on. And atthe same time, studying for the
LSAT, and then getting ready indealing with law school.
Brian Hemsworth (04:05):
I actually think from now having had
friends and foreign exchangestudents from Europe coming in
living here. And it's verycommon for them. It's not as
common for us. And I think it'sone of the smartest things that
you can do somewhere along thatway. Take a little bit of that
gap year spend a little bit oftime figuring out or even just
stepping away from school for alittle bit. I think it makes
(04:27):
that postgraduate experience alittle bit better.
Adam Grant (04:30):
You know, it was really, in hindsight, of course,
I agree with that entirely. Itwas a really good mental and
emotional break even more so Ireflect on it. And I thought,
Wow, good idea, Adam. Becausemoving up to LA so completely
relocating, moving in with agirlfriend of four years and
(04:52):
kind of getting adjusted toWell, we've been to, you know,
dating long distance for fouryears. You're living with
somebody That's a whole otherball of wax. It actually became
very easy, which was part of thereason why we ended up getting
married. It was just quitenatural. So it was a good time
she was going through herstudent teaching. And then we
(05:16):
were, you know, I started lawschool. So
Brian Hemsworth (05:19):
So let's talk a little bit about that legal
journey.
Adam Grant (05:22):
Sure.
Brian Hemsworth (05:23):
Did you, Did you have a particular area? Did
did law run in the family atall? Did you have experience
with that when you started? Orwas it all new?
Adam Grant (05:31):
It was not all new.
My father was an attorney. Hewas a started practicing with
your quintessential Philadelphialawyer. Moved out to Phoenix in
the 50s. And was a solopractitioner, he literally as
they say, pretty much didanything that came in the door.
As far as work. civillitigation. DUIs, light criminal
(05:52):
defense and family law issues.
However, he he truly did almosteverything to try and dissuade
me
Brian Hemsworth (06:07):
Oh really?
Adam Grant (06:08):
Oh my gosh, he would say frequently, you never want
to get into law, his phrase andI affectionately say there,
Jimmy-isms because my dad's namewas James. So one of his
Jimmy-isms was, you know, laws,the practice of law is
essentially hocking limb lawladies over the head for, for
money and thinking, really, Dad,what now in hindsight, with my
(06:30):
own firm, while he didn'tactually mean that what he
didn't like, was the business oflaw. Okay, well, it's not just
only, you know, law firms, butany business when you have
receivables, it is what I wasgonna say collections are just
not fun no matter what, nomatter what. But, of course,
despite him trying to dissuademe, I went on a row. And he was
(06:54):
incredibly proud of me. I willsay, though, from very early on,
it was pretty destined for me, Iwas the only person in my third
grade, who came and actuallypresented current events through
the Wall Street Journal, Mrs.
Brooks to this day, and a numberof years ago, when I met her up,
she she reminded me of thatshe's like, I never had an all
(07:16):
my teaching career, a thirdgrader, present current events
through the Wall Street Journal,but it was natural for me,
because my father, literallyread in Wall Street Journal, LA
Times in the Arizona Republic,every Sunday. That's what I had
at the Sunday, you know,breakfast, right there. Now,
interestingly enough, at leastat that point, Wall Street
(07:38):
Journal actually had littlesnippets of news articles,
right. In the beginning, you hadthe deep ones that were on the
far right, that went in multiplepages. Yeah, but they also had
kind of, you know, then soundbites. And for me, it became
great. They're a couple ofparagraphs long, it gives me a
little taste of what's going onin something or other. And I
found it really intriguing.
(08:01):
That's what I use for currentevents. You know, I've
Brian Hemsworth (08:03):
I have a little secret when we help clients
with, with, for example, writingblog posts, one of the things
that you can do is you can say,here's an interesting piece from
the Wall Street Journal, andeverybody thinks you're the most
well read person. And you don'thave to do anything other than
say, here's a great article, andthen link to it. And it makes
you sound like you're reallysmart. Even if you haven't spent
(08:25):
a whole lot of time with theWall Street Journal. I haven't
subscribed for a while, but Istill linked to him through the
website. I learned that in thirdgrade. So so when you got you
got into law school, and you'vegot some law that runs in the
family, a little bit of lawfloating through the, through
the, the veins, but did you knowwhat you wanted to do? Did you
have an idea of what practicearea? Or did you just kind of
(08:48):
soak it all in?
Adam Grant (08:49):
I had an inkling that my DNA really pointed me
towards litigating. I can tellyou that from quick reading,
quick digesting the gift of gabcame relatively young. I spent
summers, one particular summerworking on the hill, in
(09:13):
Washington, DC. I remembercoming back as a teenager, and
one of my uncle's literallywatched me, as he said, work the
room like a seasoned politicianat the ripe young age of 18
years old. And he marveledafterwards and said, don't think
I've seen an 18 year old dothat. I really enjoy public
(09:35):
speaking. I really enjoy thechallenge of having to think
quickly on my feet. And veryearly on that just kind of
instilled litigation. And thenwhen I got into law school, I
was a moot court finalist, bestbrief nominee. It seemed to be
pretty destined as I knew it waspretty much where I was going to
(09:57):
end up when competing in mootcourt in the first which is fake
oral advocacy in front of acourt of appeals, which are
professors, sometimes judges,sometimes attorneys. The first
round, and it's just by lottery,I ended up having to go up
against the head of, I mean, thenumber one person in our school
(10:21):
as far as grades goes, yeah, sothis is like, okay, great. Well,
he did really well, as far asexams. And he lost.
Brian Hemsworth (10:30):
Oh, my.
Adam Grant (10:31):
So yeah, the, the editor of law review was my
opponent. First up, and hedidn't win. So from that, I
said, Okay, clearly, there mustbe something here. I've managed,
I may not have the grades hedoes. But I can argue circles
around him.
Brian Hemsworth (10:49):
Yeah, i was gonna say at a certain point,
when you go to court, they'renot going to look at your
grades.
Adam Grant (10:53):
Right.
Brian Hemsworth (10:53):
They're gonna want to experience what you can
do in court. So it sounds to melike some of that early
upbringing, and some of yourthat gift of gab that you
mentioned, and your ability toprocess that information, long
before law school that reallypay dividends. And if we now
jump out of law school and lookat you today, are you still able
(11:16):
to apply all of that that youlearned before law school, all
of that ability to talk peopleand convince people of things.
Adam Grant (11:23):
I will say that I have certainly gained the
reputation of being a trialattorney. And it's a whole
different breed. Many times, ifyou're not an attorney, you
don't understand thedistinction. There are attorneys
who literally don't even file,they are litigators, but they
don't even file complaints. Theyjust try and settle. There are
(11:46):
those who then will actuallystart litigating. And those, you
know, they will just try andsettle quickly, or they just
won't get into the thick of it.
And then when they if they getanywhere close to trial, they're
giving it to somebody else. Andthen there's our attorneys who
essentially, I would live in thecourtroom. I would absolutely
love to just do back to backtrial.
Brian Hemsworth (12:08):
Wow.
Adam Grant (12:09):
And that's my firm knows that, my partners know
that. Any chance I get,regardless of the stakes, put me
in trial.
Brian Hemsworth (12:18):
So so if you if you were to just estimate right
now, when when we those whoaren't in the legal profession,
most of us assume all attorneysspend time in court. And then
over time, we learned that many,many, many don't. What
percentage would you say arelike you that that sort of get
bitten by the litigation bug,and then really enjoy that.
Adam Grant (12:38):
Really enjoying being in trial?
Brian Hemsworth (12:40):
Yeah.
Adam Grant (12:41):
5%
Brian Hemsworth (12:42):
5%
Adam Grant (12:43):
It's stressful.
Yeah, it's, you've got yourclient right there. You. You
have the judge, you have all thejurors, everybody's looking at
you when you're doing things youare absolutely performing. And
you're doing it with some prettyhigh stakes. And you're doing it
day after day after day. I mean,the longest jury trial I've had
is three and a half months.
Brian Hemsworth (13:06):
Wow.
Adam Grant (13:07):
Monday through Friday 830 till 430. Several 100
exhibits and think we ended upwith about 30 witnesses.
Brian Hemsworth (13:15):
Wow.
Adam Grant (13:16):
And it was an absolute charge. Now I slept for
a few days after we took theverdict. But but you know, it
was it was pretty incredible.
Brian Hemsworth (13:23):
So let's let's go forward. Now I know. You've
gone through some changes insome time, I can't remember
exactly when you can guide me inon this. It's maybe just before
COVID or during COVID. You havea firm change. Can you tell us
about the firm? And what's goingon at the firm right now? And
what are you doing at the firm?
Adam Grant (13:42):
So, I started with Alpert, Barr, & Grant, when in
2007, literally, after LeeAlpert had retired, and Gary
BArr was in the process of weknew that, you know, a merger
was likely so that we cancontinue on with the
transactional practice. And itwas in 2021, still pretty much
(14:06):
in the thick of the pandemicwhen we merged. And Shenon Law
came into our practice. And thenmost recently, of course, with
Gary retiring, Natela, and Ichanged the firm. So it's now
Grant | Shenon, and it's been anincredible ride. So far. The
(14:26):
firm has grown. We just hiredanother transactional attorney.
We're looking at hiring a 17thattorney and offers out. We're
hoping probably by the beginningof this year, to nail that down.
And it's expanded into areas asfar as how we market ourselves.
(14:47):
We had never we had never donebefore. And right now, for me, I
still I head up the litigationpractice and, you know, complex
business litigation, a lot ofreal estate and construction
matters.
Brian Hemsworth (15:00):
So you there was a physical move. Right. But
it wasn't really that far. Itwas kind of
Adam Grant (15:06):
Right. We moved from an office that the firm had been
at, since the early 80s inEncino, and we moved to Sherman
Oaks on Ventura Boulevard.
Brian Hemsworth (15:18):
Gotcha.
Adam Grant (15:18):
So, so not really too far.
Brian Hemsworth (15:20):
What about the firm itself, the culture of the
firm practice areas did thatchange much?
Adam Grant (15:27):
There was some reduction in practice areas,
because Gary had a certainspecialties with mobile home law
and certain transactional areasthat he has done. Natela brings
a wealth of transactionalexperience to the firm, she has
some reg D, offering, privateplacement memorandum type
(15:51):
experience. Um, she worked at acompany beforehand, where she
pretty much took it public. Soher depth of transactional
experience around those types ofmergers and acquisitions and
public offerings is prettysignificant. The firm also,
under my supervision does dataprivacy as well.
Brian Hemsworth (16:14):
And I assume that is probably still a pretty
high growth area for the firm.
Adam Grant (16:20):
It's an incredible area of growth, primarily
because the law is simply notanywhere near where their
technology is. So what happensis technology changes on a
daily, weekly, monthly basis,the law lags behind, which means
there's all kinds of updates,there's all kinds of bills
(16:40):
pending, and since we're inCalifornia, and we are really
the state that leads the legallandscape as far as data privacy
in the United States, it'scutting edge. So it's forever
updating my clients. It'sforever updating agreements that
relate to data privacy. And ofcourse, if there's a data
(17:01):
breach, making sure that themost up to date laws are used in
responding to.
Brian Hemsworth (17:06):
So for, I don't know, maybe the past five to 10
years, we've heard that Europeis really ahead of the US in
terms of data privacy and theirthe laws that they have, is that
still the case? Or has the USkind of caught up? I I do know
that people now do refer toCalifornia is kind of leading
(17:27):
that charge in the US.
Adam Grant (17:28):
So that's a matter of perspective. Okay. Okay. You
know Europe passed the GeneralData Privacy Protection Act, and
one would say that is actuallynot advanced, but more
draconian. Yeah, and the waydata privacy is essentially
(17:49):
handled in the United States isvery different than it's handled
in Europe, because in Europe,it's basically the EU putting
out for the most part, it's theEU putting out this law, it's
more done on a country widebasis, even within so whether
it's Germany, or what have you,by country, the United States
(18:13):
doesn't do it really by countryonly. There's some federal laws,
of course that apply to it. Butunlike Europe, each individual
state then has their own set ofprivacy laws. So you, if you're
in Europe, and you're in Poland,or Germany, or you know, what
have you, you comply with oneset of laws period.
Brian Hemsworth (18:36):
So here, you've got an EU blanket,
Adam Grant (18:38):
right, right,
Brian Hemsworth (18:39):
as we have you have a bit of layers of a
federal layer, and then statelayers and probably more in the
way of state Yes, yeah,
Adam Grant (18:44):
Yes, yeah, more in the way of state now. Because a
lot of clients come to me andsay, Well, I'm actually selling
product or I have clients allover the country, how can I
possibly possibly comply withall the various little
idiosyncrasy idiosyncrasies ofeach individual states? And
that's a valid, you know, you'renot a huge fortune 500 company
(19:05):
that can really drill down andall of those and make sure it
works, and most businesses arenot that so the best advice I
can give clients is comply withCalifornia.
Brian Hemsworth (19:15):
Okay, that's a great starting point.
Adam Grant (19:17):
Yeah, because while there may be a, you know,
various nuances in differentstates, they all frequently will
take off of California. So ifyou're complying with
California, you have at leastsubstantially complied with
virtually everything else.
Gotcha. So,
Brian Hemsworth (19:32):
Gotcha. So, just staying on the firm now for
another moment, I want to tossyou toss you a very soft pitch.
And that is, we call you whenwhen what are the things that
should trigger us to think aboutcoming to you with legal issues.
Adam Grant (19:49):
You need to call me well in advance of any type of
dispute. Anything, if you aredoing anything with your
business if you're acquiring apiece of property, if you are
Even if you're an individual andyou want somebody to review over
an insurance policy, literally,the first person you need to
call is your attorney. Thereason being is if you wait
(20:12):
until there's problems, thenyou've probably created a bigger
problem than you really need.
Brian Hemsworth (20:18):
So so if we are doing some kind of transactional
work, and and we specificallyhear or think of dispute, that's
a trigger. But even before that,if we're looking at things that
could possibly, that's a triggerfor us to call early.
Adam Grant (20:34):
Call early. And while I primarily do litigation,
of course, the firm does thetransactional work. And when you
have a firm that can approach aclient in a holistic manner in
such that it's not justlitigation, in what variation on
the theme that can be dependingupon the topic, but can also
(20:55):
address the transactional needs,you're able to mesh those minds
together, and be able to reallyanticipate problems because
within the deal documents, theycome to me, and I know, okay,
that indemnity agreement isn'tgoing to work in this, this
particular venue clause is notreally working, this arbitration
clause is outdated, and actuallyhas these problems because of
(21:16):
this particular case. Andstatutes have just recently been
changed on this particularphrase, in this choice of law
provision, so you need to updateit. Those are the types of
things if you have a firm suchas ours, we can identify those
things and with the depth ofexperience, identify them
quickly, efficiently.
Brian Hemsworth (21:34):
So you're really bringing in expertise on
that transactional side. Andalso, you've got a lot of
experience on the litigationside. So that's the blend that's
really protecting your clientsor hopefully keeping them away
from a lot of the problems thatmight otherwise flare up.
Adam Grant (21:49):
Right. The ability to be a hybrid is really
critical.
Brian Hemsworth (21:53):
Gotcha. Gotcha.
All right. So I want to havejust a little bit of fun with
this as well. We've been talkingsome business, but you have a
particular well, you beganmentioning this with San Diego,
you run, you swim, you ridebikes, and you do it a lot. And
you compete. Did that start withSan Diego? Or is that something
(22:14):
that you know, once you gotback, or came up to LA that,
that you really started in onthat?
Adam Grant (22:20):
No, again, I tend to be pretty consistent in my life
and goal oriented. It actuallystarted from when I was before I
was one year old. Yeah, take adeep breath on that statement.
Brian Hemsworth (22:35):
I'm trying to process
Adam Grant (22:36):
Okay, so my mom was a lifeguard.
Brian Hemsworth (22:39):
Oh, okay.
Adam Grant (22:40):
She's a lifeguard at the local Jewish Community
Center. And we had a pool in ourbackyard. So I literally learned
how to swim and walk at the sametime.
Brian Hemsworth (22:50):
Oh, my goodness.
Adam Grant (22:50):
So by the time I was 1314 15 months old, I was water
safe and walking like crazy. Bythe time I was five, I had, I
knew every stroke, and wasswimming competitively. I swam
competitively throughout highschool. And I learned really
quickly for some strange reasonI can run even as a third or
fourth grader faster and longerthan most eighth graders could.
(23:13):
So when I got into high school,it was four years of varsity
track. A couple of years ofwrestling couple years of
football in college and ended upbeing rowing crew, and then
living in San Diego. I didn'town a car during college so I
ended up riding my bike, a roadbike finally I graduated into
that, from the top of MountSoledad to UC San Diego. And
(23:37):
then my study partners lived inDel Mar, I'd ride down Torrey
Pines up Torrey Pines into delMar, and then I ride home. And
so that ended up being a solid30 to 40 miles, sometimes 50
miles or so. Every couple ofdays to deal with. And after law
school, kept running and thenfinally putting it all together.
(23:57):
A friend of mine said, you know,you swim like a damn fish. I've
seen your run and jog you know,really do well in marathons. Can
you bike? I said of course Ican. That's all she wrote. It's
been about 35 years I've beendoing triathlons.
Brian Hemsworth (24:12):
Wow. So I spent a little time in San Diego
myself. A lot of people think ofSan Diego as being you know, by
the beach and they don't realizewhat kind of hills we do have
there. And and it actually isgreat for training. I did an
interview with Pete Penseyresseries if you remember him Race
Across America Winner.
RAM.
Yeah. And he and he basicallytrained most of the year just in
(24:38):
San Diego proper. He worked atSan Onofre. I always thought he
had a little bit of nuclearthere but he would get special
permission to ride throughPendleton so he could ride into
San Diego back to San Diego. Andhe do that at lunch. And then
when it was getting close to twomonths before the RAM event, he
would start in San Diego andFriday night after work. He
(24:58):
would ride to Arizona and backAnd that was and he get back
some time on Sunday. And thatliteral and he would just go,
he'd go with, you know, money ina credit card in a pocket. And
he'd stopped somewhere and sleepfor a few hours and he'd stop at
a 7-11 or grab something alongthe way. With, with those
events, the triathlons give meone or two of the most
(25:20):
memorable, what have been yourfavorites that you've done
because I know you've done alot.
Adam Gra (25:24):
in record time for me.
Hands down. So itactually was an UltraMan. So
most people are familiar withthe term Ironman. Most people
know Oh, in Hawaii, there's anIronman Well, Ironman is
Brian Hemsworth (25:34):
Oh, my God actually a distance, two and a
half mile swim, 112 mile bike,and then a marathon 26.2 miles.
So after I've done a number ofthose, I stepped up to doing
Ultra man, which is actually aIn 2019?
three day event. First day is a6.2 mile swim, and then a 90
(25:58):
mile bike. The second day is 171miles of cycling. And then the
third day is a double marathon52.4 miles. So after doing 12
Iron Man's, I then stepped up todo an ultra man in Florida, in
2017. And I then decided Iwanted to go that qualified me
(26:18):
to apply to the UltraMan WorldChampionships in Kona, Hawaii,
so I was accepted. And in 2018,I raced. In 2018, this was in
November, during the that yearis when the Big Island of Hawaii
actually had quite a lot ofvolcanic activity. The southern
(26:39):
portion of the island gotsignificantly covered with lava
and a portion of the race,therefore could not happen in
the southern portion. So we hadto go up in over the middle
part. Oh, so what is normally171 miles of cycling, with about
8000 feet of climbing, turnedinto 171 miles of cycling in
(27:03):
almost 15,000 feet of climbing.
So the most memorable part ofprecursor was that second day
was a tough swim the first day.
And coming into the second daywas like Okay, hope I hope my
legs are here. And I managed toget to the top of the volcano.
(27:24):
And then I almost passed out. Ireally, I couldn't clip in. I
had to have somebody push myfeet in the clip in. And but I
managed to get to the top. Irealized at that point that it
Adam Grant (27:38):
In 2019 was finishing and my whole family
was not safe for me to descendthe 20 some odd miles with cross
winds of 40 miles an hour and Ihad to pull the plug. So I did
not finish that day. I wascrying. I was trying to
emotionally kind of grapple withthis. And yet I came through and
(27:59):
this next day, I still ran thedouble marathon. Oh wow. And
then the next year I went and Ifinished the entire thing.
was there. And there's a photoof me crossing the finish line
(28:20):
in 2019 with all three daughterswith my wife there. And that
pretty much in my mind was thepinnacle. I completed the
UltraMan world championshipswith my family right next to me.
Brian Hemsworth (28:33):
And compared to say the first time you competed
in an Ironman. Did that stillbeat that experience?
Adam Grant (28:41):
Hands down.
Brian Hemsworth (28:41):
Oh wow.
Adam Grant (28:42):
Yeah, hands down.
First one was IronMan Arizona.
And I finished in about 12 hoursand 14 minutes with my oldest
daughter crossing the finishline. That was cool. But the
UltraMan World Championships
Brian Hemsworth (28:55):
Yeah.
Adam Grant (28:56):
With my entire family there. That was it.
Brian Hemsworth (28:59):
Oh goodness, how long do you think you're
going to keep doing this?
Adam Grant (29:02):
Funny you should ask. So I have nowhere near
retiring. But I can tell youwhat I'm going to do when I
retire. Okay, one I'm going backto school and two my wife and I
are going to travel and there'sIronMans all over the world. So
I can go and do an Ironman shipmy bike back, and we could
travel so as far as I'mconcerned. Last time I heard
(29:23):
that the oldest person whofinished an Ironman was I think
it was 84-85 I'm good.
Brian Hemsworth (29:30):
Wow, what are you gonna go back to school for?
Adam Grant (29:33):
Not math and not science. Okay, I just when I was
in school, I loved learning. Iloved learning, reading. I love
history. I love politics. I wasa poli sci major and a double
minor with US history andpolitical philosophy. So
anything humanities, any socialsciences, I mean in sociology,
(29:55):
it was something I took. Ireally enjoyed Greek mythology.
I really really enjoyed it. Youknow, anything to keep my mind
active, but I love learning.
Brian Hemsworth (30:04):
I do a fair amount of teaching. And I,
somebody, psychologist friendthat I know, had asked me why.
And I said, Well, I just enjoyedI enjoy being in the classroom.
And he informed me that a lot ofpeople that teach, teach because
we like learning that we'veactually subconsciously we just
(30:24):
gravitate to that, to thosesurroundings. And I now after
about 17-18 years of mostlybeing an adjunct, have learned
that, oh my gosh, it's so true.
It keeps you on your game. Andnow with the internet, you have
students that are fact checkingyou in real time in the
classroom, which 17 years ago,they weren't, I could get away
with, you know, lecturing on,you know, just the, on whatever
(30:45):
was coming up in my mind. Andnow I've got to be on my game.
And I know it sounds reallycorny, but I learned an awful
lot from those students.
Everything that I've learned interms of social media, content
marketing, has really come frommy students. And I love that
ability to just keep learning. Ithink it's a little bit easier
(31:07):
for us now. I think we live in aworld where we're allowed to
keep learning and it almostfeels like a generation ago, you
kind of stopped and then youmoved into a different thing.
And lifelong learning is muchmore of a thing right now. So
for you it will be lifelonglearning, lifelong running, life
long riding is life long. SoI'm going to circle back to just
(31:28):
one because I gotta ask I'm, I'ma I'm a biker. You mentioned
that first road bike. Do youremember what that road bike?
Adam Grant (31:34):
Well, yes it was a Fuji was a Fuji. It was bronze
and color and I had toe cages.
And probably Shimano 105s on it.
And, and the shifters were wason on a stamp. Yeah, on the down
tube
Brian Hemsworth (31:50):
Yeah, mine was Shimano 600s. Yeah, one step
before the hams. It was a Biankey. And believe it or not, I
still have that by my garage.
It's got a lot of rust on it.
And I haven't written it in 20years, but I still have that
among others. Well, listen,Adam, I really appreciate your
coming in thanks for sharingsome of your background and
what's going on with the firmand some of these fun
(32:12):
experiences. I we just barelyscratched the surface. So at
some point later on, I'd love tohave you come back in and maybe
help educate us so we can keeplearning a little bit about not
only some of the stuff you'redoing outside I want to hear
about the adventures and the andthe, the competitions you do in
the learning but also you areable to bring us a lot of very
(32:34):
important stuff about law. Sothank you very much appreciate
your coming in for that.
Adam Grant (32:38):
Thank you.
Announcer (32:48):
Presented by Echelon Business Development. More than
just networking. Way more.
From Los Angeles, this is the Echelon Radio
Network.
Brian Hemsworth (00:04):
Hi, and welcome back to another edition of the
Echelon Radio Podcast. I'm BrianHemsworth. And today I have in
our studio, Attorneyextraordinaire, Adam Grant.
Adam, thanks for coming intoday. Appreciate it.
Adam Grant (00:24):
Wonderful to be here. Thank you.
Brian Hemsworth (00:25):
So Adam, I wanted to start, a lot of us in
the business community. We knowyou, we we've been aware of your
work. We know you fromnetworking. And we know about
some of your other activitiesoutside of the legal world. But
what I haven't necessarily heardand I thought a great place for
us to start is the beginning.
Where are you from? Where'd yougrow up?
Adam Grant (00:48):
So I was born in Phoenix, Arizona in March of
1964. Grew up there and went toelementary school, middle
school, beginning of highschool, and then moved to San
Diego and then up to LA butPhoenix, Arizona. That's my
roots.
Brian Hemsworth (01:07):
Phoenix. So when you went to San Diego about
when was that?
Adam Grant (01:10):
That would be in June 1980.
Brian Hemsworth (01:13):
So 80 you would have been high school?
Adam Grant (01:15):
Yeah, about 16 at the time.
Brian Hemsworth (01:17):
And whereabouts in San Diego.
Adam Grant (01:19):
It was really difficult. My parents decided
that La Jolla needs to be theplace to move to. So yeah, it
was extremely rough moving. Welived on top of Mount Soledad in
La Jolla and about three milesfrom the beach. So I spent as
much time as possible when Iwasn't in school, riding my bike
(01:42):
down the mountain and going toeither Pacific Beach, or all the
way into La Jolla and thenriding back up.
Brian Hemsworth (01:48):
Oh, wow. Wow.
So you were actually doing a lotof that activity early on in
your life.
Adam Grant (01:53):
Yeah, very, very early on. So and when I first
started to do that, moving toSan Diego, it was on a beach
cruiser. So no gear,
Brian Hemsworth (02:03):
no gears and a heavy bike
Adam Grant (02:05):
and going uphill for miles. So it was a lot of fun.
Brian Hemsworth (02:08):
So it was a training bike.
Adam Grant (02:09):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Brian Hemsworth (02:11):
Yeah. And you said 1980?
Adam Grant (02:12):
Yeah. It was then.
Yeah.
Brian Hemsworth (02:14):
So ironically, we were in San Diego at the same
time. I was at San Diego State.
Adam Grant (02:18):
Go Aztecs
Brian Hemsworth (02:19):
In the 80s.
Yeah. But everybody says wasthat the one that's you know,
outside La Jolla and I go no,that's that's the other one. If
San Diego State was out in LaJolla we would have never
graduated. It's the smart onesthat go to the one in in La
Jolla on that. So So then whenyou came up, came up to LA
approximately, when was that?
Adam Grant (02:38):
Well, I graduated from that school in La Jolla. UC
San Diego. I was a Triton.
Brian Hemsworth (02:44):
So you he's one of the smart guys.
Adam Grant (02:46):
So I graduated from UC San Diego in 1986. And then
moved up to North Hollywood,actually, and as I'm fond of
saying, moved in with my thengirlfriend now wife.
Brian Hemsworth (03:00):
Very good. And was that for law school that you
came up?
Adam Grant (03:04):
Yeah, it was well no no. And if truth be told it was
for Joyce. Ah, so but yes, I wasgoing to go
Brian Hemsworth (03:11):
for a more important reason,
Adam Grant (03:12):
way more important way more important. So I was
we're definitely going to bemoving in together because we
had been dating since I was 17.
Wow. And I got a job actually.
Because we were moving up. I wasmoving up there. I got a job in
Los Angeles, working in a lawfirm, just really as a file
clerk. But it was a familyfriend who connected me and the
(03:36):
idea was actually took a yearoff between graduating from UC
San Diego and starting atSouthwestern University Law
School. But while it freaked mydad out thinking, oh, you know,
yeah, Adams never gonna go backto school last year. Yeah, of
course, that was not the case.
It was more. Okay. Now I'm goingto be in a law firm, really
(03:56):
seeing what's going on. And atthe same time, studying for the
LSAT, and then getting ready indealing with law school.
Brian Hemsworth (04:05):
I actually think from now having had
friends and foreign exchangestudents from Europe coming in
living here. And it's verycommon for them. It's not as
common for us. And I think it'sone of the smartest things that
you can do somewhere along thatway. Take a little bit of that
gap year spend a little bit oftime figuring out or even just
stepping away from school for alittle bit. I think it makes
(04:27):
that postgraduate experience alittle bit better.
Adam Grant (04:30):
You know, it was really, in hindsight, of course,
I agree with that entirely. Itwas a really good mental and
emotional break even more so Ireflect on it. And I thought,
Wow, good idea, Adam. Becausemoving up to LA so completely
relocating, moving in with agirlfriend of four years and
(04:52):
kind of getting adjusted toWell, we've been to, you know,
dating long distance for fouryears. You're living with
somebody That's a whole otherball of wax. It actually became
very easy, which was part of thereason why we ended up getting
married. It was just quitenatural. So it was a good time
she was going through herstudent teaching. And then we
(05:16):
were, you know, I started lawschool. So
Brian Hemsworth (05:19):
So let's talk a little bit about that legal
journey.
Adam Grant (05:22):
Sure.
Brian Hemsworth (05:23):
Did you, Did you have a particular area? Did
did law run in the family atall? Did you have experience
with that when you started? Orwas it all new?
Adam Grant (05:31):
It was not all new.
My father was an attorney. Hewas a started practicing with
your quintessential Philadelphialawyer. Moved out to Phoenix in
the 50s. And was a solopractitioner, he literally as
they say, pretty much didanything that came in the door.
As far as work. civillitigation. DUIs, light criminal
(05:52):
defense and family law issues.
However, he he truly did almosteverything to try and dissuade
me
Brian Hemsworth (06:07):
Oh really?
Adam Grant (06:08):
Oh my gosh, he would say frequently, you never want
to get into law, his phrase andI affectionately say there,
Jimmy-isms because my dad's namewas James. So one of his
Jimmy-isms was, you know, laws,the practice of law is
essentially hocking limb lawladies over the head for, for
money and thinking, really, Dad,what now in hindsight, with my
(06:30):
own firm, while he didn'tactually mean that what he
didn't like, was the business oflaw. Okay, well, it's not just
only, you know, law firms, butany business when you have
receivables, it is what I wasgonna say collections are just
not fun no matter what, nomatter what. But, of course,
despite him trying to dissuademe, I went on a row. And he was
(06:54):
incredibly proud of me. I willsay, though, from very early on,
it was pretty destined for me, Iwas the only person in my third
grade, who came and actuallypresented current events through
the Wall Street Journal, Mrs.
Brooks to this day, and a numberof years ago, when I met her up,
she she reminded me of thatshe's like, I never had an all
(07:16):
my teaching career, a thirdgrader, present current events
through the Wall Street Journal,but it was natural for me,
because my father, literallyread in Wall Street Journal, LA
Times in the Arizona Republic,every Sunday. That's what I had
at the Sunday, you know,breakfast, right there. Now,
interestingly enough, at leastat that point, Wall Street
(07:38):
Journal actually had littlesnippets of news articles,
right. In the beginning, you hadthe deep ones that were on the
far right, that went in multiplepages. Yeah, but they also had
kind of, you know, then soundbites. And for me, it became
great. They're a couple ofparagraphs long, it gives me a
little taste of what's going onin something or other. And I
found it really intriguing.
(08:01):
That's what I use for currentevents. You know, I've
Brian Hemsworth (08:03):
I have a little secret when we help clients
with, with, for example, writingblog posts, one of the things
that you can do is you can say,here's an interesting piece from
the Wall Street Journal, andeverybody thinks you're the most
well read person. And you don'thave to do anything other than
say, here's a great article, andthen link to it. And it makes
you sound like you're reallysmart. Even if you haven't spent
(08:25):
a whole lot of time with theWall Street Journal. I haven't
subscribed for a while, but Istill linked to him through the
website. I learned that in thirdgrade. So so when you got you
got into law school, and you'vegot some law that runs in the
family, a little bit of lawfloating through the, through
the, the veins, but did you knowwhat you wanted to do? Did you
have an idea of what practicearea? Or did you just kind of
(08:48):
soak it all in?
Adam Grant (08:49):
I had an inkling that my DNA really pointed me
towards litigating. I can tellyou that from quick reading,
quick digesting the gift of gabcame relatively young. I spent
summers, one particular summerworking on the hill, in
(09:13):
Washington, DC. I remembercoming back as a teenager, and
one of my uncle's literallywatched me, as he said, work the
room like a seasoned politicianat the ripe young age of 18
years old. And he marveledafterwards and said, don't think
I've seen an 18 year old dothat. I really enjoy public
(09:35):
speaking. I really enjoy thechallenge of having to think
quickly on my feet. And veryearly on that just kind of
instilled litigation. And thenwhen I got into law school, I
was a moot court finalist, bestbrief nominee. It seemed to be
pretty destined as I knew it waspretty much where I was going to
(09:57):
end up when competing in mootcourt in the first which is fake
oral advocacy in front of acourt of appeals, which are
professors, sometimes judges,sometimes attorneys. The first
round, and it's just by lottery,I ended up having to go up
against the head of, I mean, thenumber one person in our school
(10:21):
as far as grades goes, yeah, sothis is like, okay, great. Well,
he did really well, as far asexams. And he lost.
Brian Hemsworth (10:30):
Oh, my.
Adam Grant (10:31):
So yeah, the, the editor of law review was my
opponent. First up, and hedidn't win. So from that, I
said, Okay, clearly, there mustbe something here. I've managed,
I may not have the grades hedoes. But I can argue circles
around him.
Brian Hemsworth (10:49):
Yeah, i was gonna say at a certain point,
when you go to court, they'renot going to look at your
grades.
Adam Grant (10:53):
Right.
Brian Hemsworth (10:53):
They're gonna want to experience what you can
do in court. So it sounds to melike some of that early
upbringing, and some of yourthat gift of gab that you
mentioned, and your ability toprocess that information, long
before law school that reallypay dividends. And if we now
jump out of law school and lookat you today, are you still able
(11:16):
to apply all of that that youlearned before law school, all
of that ability to talk peopleand convince people of things.
Adam Grant (11:23):
I will say that I have certainly gained the
reputation of being a trialattorney. And it's a whole
different breed. Many times, ifyou're not an attorney, you
don't understand thedistinction. There are attorneys
who literally don't even file,they are litigators, but they
don't even file complaints. Theyjust try and settle. There are
(11:46):
those who then will actuallystart litigating. And those, you
know, they will just try andsettle quickly, or they just
won't get into the thick of it.
And then when they if they getanywhere close to trial, they're
giving it to somebody else. Andthen there's our attorneys who
essentially, I would live in thecourtroom. I would absolutely
love to just do back to backtrial.
Brian Hemsworth (12:08):
Wow.
Adam Grant (12:09):
And that's my firm knows that, my partners know
that. Any chance I get,regardless of the stakes, put me
in trial.
Brian Hemsworth (12:18):
So so if you if you were to just estimate right
now, when when we those whoaren't in the legal profession,
most of us assume all attorneysspend time in court. And then
over time, we learned that many,many, many don't. What
percentage would you say arelike you that that sort of get
bitten by the litigation bug,and then really enjoy that.
Adam Grant (12:38):
Really enjoying being in trial?
Brian Hemsworth (12:40):
Yeah.
Adam Grant (12:41):
5%
Brian Hemsworth (12:42):
5%
Adam Grant (12:43):
It's stressful.
Yeah, it's, you've got yourclient right there. You. You
have the judge, you have all thejurors, everybody's looking at
you when you're doing things youare absolutely performing. And
you're doing it with some prettyhigh stakes. And you're doing it
day after day after day. I mean,the longest jury trial I've had
is three and a half months.
Brian Hemsworth (13:06):
Wow.
Adam Grant (13:07):
Monday through Friday 830 till 430. Several 100
exhibits and think we ended upwith about 30 witnesses.
Brian Hemsworth (13:15):
Wow.
Adam Grant (13:16):
And it was an absolute charge. Now I slept for
a few days after we took theverdict. But but you know, it
was it was pretty incredible.
Brian Hemsworth (13:23):
So let's let's go forward. Now I know. You've
gone through some changes insome time, I can't remember
exactly when you can guide me inon this. It's maybe just before
COVID or during COVID. You havea firm change. Can you tell us
about the firm? And what's goingon at the firm right now? And
what are you doing at the firm?
Adam Grant (13:42):
So, I started with Alpert, Barr, & Grant, when in
2007, literally, after LeeAlpert had retired, and Gary
BArr was in the process of weknew that, you know, a merger
was likely so that we cancontinue on with the
transactional practice. And itwas in 2021, still pretty much
(14:06):
in the thick of the pandemicwhen we merged. And Shenon Law
came into our practice. And thenmost recently, of course, with
Gary retiring, Natela, and Ichanged the firm. So it's now
Grant | Shenon, and it's been anincredible ride. So far. The
(14:26):
firm has grown. We just hiredanother transactional attorney.
We're looking at hiring a 17thattorney and offers out. We're
hoping probably by the beginningof this year, to nail that down.
And it's expanded into areas asfar as how we market ourselves.
(14:47):
We had never we had never donebefore. And right now, for me, I
still I head up the litigationpractice and, you know, complex
business litigation, a lot ofreal estate and construction
matters.
Brian Hemsworth (15:00):
So you there was a physical move. Right. But
it wasn't really that far. Itwas kind of
Adam Grant (15:06):
Right. We moved from an office that the firm had been
at, since the early 80s inEncino, and we moved to Sherman
Oaks on Ventura Boulevard.
Brian Hemsworth (15:18):
Gotcha.
Adam Grant (15:18):
So, so not really too far.
Brian Hemsworth (15:20):
What about the firm itself, the culture of the
firm practice areas did thatchange much?
Adam Grant (15:27):
There was some reduction in practice areas,
because Gary had a certainspecialties with mobile home law
and certain transactional areasthat he has done. Natela brings
a wealth of transactionalexperience to the firm, she has
some reg D, offering, privateplacement memorandum type
(15:51):
experience. Um, she worked at acompany beforehand, where she
pretty much took it public. Soher depth of transactional
experience around those types ofmergers and acquisitions and
public offerings is prettysignificant. The firm also,
under my supervision does dataprivacy as well.
Brian Hemsworth (16:14):
And I assume that is probably still a pretty
high growth area for the firm.
Adam Grant (16:20):
It's an incredible area of growth, primarily
because the law is simply notanywhere near where their
technology is. So what happensis technology changes on a
daily, weekly, monthly basis,the law lags behind, which means
there's all kinds of updates,there's all kinds of bills
(16:40):
pending, and since we're inCalifornia, and we are really
the state that leads the legallandscape as far as data privacy
in the United States, it'scutting edge. So it's forever
updating my clients. It'sforever updating agreements that
relate to data privacy. And ofcourse, if there's a data
(17:01):
breach, making sure that themost up to date laws are used in
responding to.
Brian Hemsworth (17:06):
So for, I don't know, maybe the past five to 10
years, we've heard that Europeis really ahead of the US in
terms of data privacy and theirthe laws that they have, is that
still the case? Or has the USkind of caught up? I I do know
that people now do refer toCalifornia is kind of leading
(17:27):
that charge in the US.
Adam Grant (17:28):
So that's a matter of perspective. Okay. Okay. You
know Europe passed the GeneralData Privacy Protection Act, and
one would say that is actuallynot advanced, but more
draconian. Yeah, and the waydata privacy is essentially
(17:49):
handled in the United States isvery different than it's handled
in Europe, because in Europe,it's basically the EU putting
out for the most part, it's theEU putting out this law, it's
more done on a country widebasis, even within so whether
it's Germany, or what have you,by country, the United States
(18:13):
doesn't do it really by countryonly. There's some federal laws,
of course that apply to it. Butunlike Europe, each individual
state then has their own set ofprivacy laws. So you, if you're
in Europe, and you're in Poland,or Germany, or you know, what
have you, you comply with oneset of laws period.
Brian Hemsworth (18:36):
So here, you've got an EU blanket,
Adam Grant (18:38):
right, right,
Brian Hemsworth (18:39):
as we have you have a bit of layers of a
federal layer, and then statelayers and probably more in the
way of state Yes, yeah,
Adam Grant (18:44):
Yes, yeah, more in the way of state now. Because a
lot of clients come to me andsay, Well, I'm actually selling
product or I have clients allover the country, how can I
possibly possibly comply withall the various little
idiosyncrasy idiosyncrasies ofeach individual states? And
that's a valid, you know, you'renot a huge fortune 500 company
(19:05):
that can really drill down andall of those and make sure it
works, and most businesses arenot that so the best advice I
can give clients is comply withCalifornia.
Brian Hemsworth (19:15):
Okay, that's a great starting point.
Adam Grant (19:17):
Yeah, because while there may be a, you know,
various nuances in differentstates, they all frequently will
take off of California. So ifyou're complying with
California, you have at leastsubstantially complied with
virtually everything else.
Gotcha. So,
Brian Hemsworth (19:32):
Gotcha. So, just staying on the firm now for
another moment, I want to tossyou toss you a very soft pitch.
And that is, we call you whenwhen what are the things that
should trigger us to think aboutcoming to you with legal issues.
Adam Grant (19:49):
You need to call me well in advance of any type of
dispute. Anything, if you aredoing anything with your
business if you're acquiring apiece of property, if you are
Even if you're an individual andyou want somebody to review over
an insurance policy, literally,the first person you need to
call is your attorney. Thereason being is if you wait
(20:12):
until there's problems, thenyou've probably created a bigger
problem than you really need.
Brian Hemsworth (20:18):
So so if we are doing some kind of transactional
work, and and we specificallyhear or think of dispute, that's
a trigger. But even before that,if we're looking at things that
could possibly, that's a triggerfor us to call early.
Adam Grant (20:34):
Call early. And while I primarily do litigation,
of course, the firm does thetransactional work. And when you
have a firm that can approach aclient in a holistic manner in
such that it's not justlitigation, in what variation on
the theme that can be dependingupon the topic, but can also
(20:55):
address the transactional needs,you're able to mesh those minds
together, and be able to reallyanticipate problems because
within the deal documents, theycome to me, and I know, okay,
that indemnity agreement isn'tgoing to work in this, this
particular venue clause is notreally working, this arbitration
clause is outdated, and actuallyhas these problems because of
(21:16):
this particular case. Andstatutes have just recently been
changed on this particularphrase, in this choice of law
provision, so you need to updateit. Those are the types of
things if you have a firm suchas ours, we can identify those
things and with the depth ofexperience, identify them
quickly, efficiently.
Brian Hemsworth (21:34):
So you're really bringing in expertise on
that transactional side. Andalso, you've got a lot of
experience on the litigationside. So that's the blend that's
really protecting your clientsor hopefully keeping them away
from a lot of the problems thatmight otherwise flare up.
Adam Grant (21:49):
Right. The ability to be a hybrid is really
critical.
Brian Hemsworth (21:53):
Gotcha. Gotcha.
All right. So I want to havejust a little bit of fun with
this as well. We've been talkingsome business, but you have a
particular well, you beganmentioning this with San Diego,
you run, you swim, you ridebikes, and you do it a lot. And
you compete. Did that start withSan Diego? Or is that something
(22:14):
that you know, once you gotback, or came up to LA that,
that you really started in onthat?
Adam Grant (22:20):
No, again, I tend to be pretty consistent in my life
and goal oriented. It actuallystarted from when I was before I
was one year old. Yeah, take adeep breath on that statement.
Brian Hemsworth (22:35):
I'm trying to process
Adam Grant (22:36):
Okay, so my mom was a lifeguard.
Brian Hemsworth (22:39):
Oh, okay.
Adam Grant (22:40):
She's a lifeguard at the local Jewish Community
Center. And we had a pool in ourbackyard. So I literally learned
how to swim and walk at the sametime.
Brian Hemsworth (22:50):
Oh, my goodness.
Adam Grant (22:50):
So by the time I was 1314 15 months old, I was water
safe and walking like crazy. Bythe time I was five, I had, I
knew every stroke, and wasswimming competitively. I swam
competitively throughout highschool. And I learned really
quickly for some strange reasonI can run even as a third or
fourth grader faster and longerthan most eighth graders could.
(23:13):
So when I got into high school,it was four years of varsity
track. A couple of years ofwrestling couple years of
football in college and ended upbeing rowing crew, and then
living in San Diego. I didn'town a car during college so I
ended up riding my bike, a roadbike finally I graduated into
that, from the top of MountSoledad to UC San Diego. And
(23:37):
then my study partners lived inDel Mar, I'd ride down Torrey
Pines up Torrey Pines into delMar, and then I ride home. And
so that ended up being a solid30 to 40 miles, sometimes 50
miles or so. Every couple ofdays to deal with. And after law
school, kept running and thenfinally putting it all together.
(23:57):
A friend of mine said, you know,you swim like a damn fish. I've
seen your run and jog you know,really do well in marathons. Can
you bike? I said of course Ican. That's all she wrote. It's
been about 35 years I've beendoing triathlons.
Brian Hemsworth (24:12):
Wow. So I spent a little time in San Diego
myself. A lot of people think ofSan Diego as being you know, by
the beach and they don't realizewhat kind of hills we do have
there. And and it actually isgreat for training. I did an
interview with Pete Penseyresseries if you remember him Race
Across America Winner.
RAM.
Yeah. And he and he basicallytrained most of the year just in
(24:38):
San Diego proper. He worked atSan Onofre. I always thought he
had a little bit of nuclearthere but he would get special
permission to ride throughPendleton so he could ride into
San Diego back to San Diego. Andhe do that at lunch. And then
when it was getting close to twomonths before the RAM event, he
would start in San Diego andFriday night after work. He
(24:58):
would ride to Arizona and backAnd that was and he get back
some time on Sunday. And thatliteral and he would just go,
he'd go with, you know, money ina credit card in a pocket. And
he'd stopped somewhere and sleepfor a few hours and he'd stop at
a 7-11 or grab something alongthe way. With, with those
events, the triathlons give meone or two of the most
(25:20):
memorable, what have been yourfavorites that you've done
because I know you've done alot.
Adam Gra (25:24):
in record time for me.
Hands down. So itactually was an UltraMan. So
most people are familiar withthe term Ironman. Most people
know Oh, in Hawaii, there's anIronman Well, Ironman is
Brian Hemsworth (25:34):
Oh, my God actually a distance, two and a
half mile swim, 112 mile bike,and then a marathon 26.2 miles.
So after I've done a number ofthose, I stepped up to doing
Ultra man, which is actually aIn 2019?
three day event. First day is a6.2 mile swim, and then a 90
(25:58):
mile bike. The second day is 171miles of cycling. And then the
third day is a double marathon52.4 miles. So after doing 12
Iron Man's, I then stepped up todo an ultra man in Florida, in
2017. And I then decided Iwanted to go that qualified me
(26:18):
to apply to the UltraMan WorldChampionships in Kona, Hawaii,
so I was accepted. And in 2018,I raced. In 2018, this was in
November, during the that yearis when the Big Island of Hawaii
actually had quite a lot ofvolcanic activity. The southern
(26:39):
portion of the island gotsignificantly covered with lava
and a portion of the race,therefore could not happen in
the southern portion. So we hadto go up in over the middle
part. Oh, so what is normally171 miles of cycling, with about
8000 feet of climbing, turnedinto 171 miles of cycling in
(27:03):
almost 15,000 feet of climbing.
So the most memorable part ofprecursor was that second day
was a tough swim the first day.
And coming into the second daywas like Okay, hope I hope my
legs are here. And I managed toget to the top of the volcano.
(27:24):
And then I almost passed out. Ireally, I couldn't clip in. I
had to have somebody push myfeet in the clip in. And but I
managed to get to the top. Irealized at that point that it
Adam Grant (27:38):
In 2019 was finishing and my whole family
was not safe for me to descendthe 20 some odd miles with cross
winds of 40 miles an hour and Ihad to pull the plug. So I did
not finish that day. I wascrying. I was trying to
emotionally kind of grapple withthis. And yet I came through and
(27:59):
this next day, I still ran thedouble marathon. Oh wow. And
then the next year I went and Ifinished the entire thing.
was there. And there's a photoof me crossing the finish line
(28:20):
in 2019 with all three daughterswith my wife there. And that
pretty much in my mind was thepinnacle. I completed the
UltraMan world championshipswith my family right next to me.
Brian Hemsworth (28:33):
And compared to say the first time you competed
in an Ironman. Did that stillbeat that experience?
Adam Grant (28:41):
Hands down.
Brian Hemsworth (28:41):
Oh wow.
Adam Grant (28:42):
Yeah, hands down.
First one was IronMan Arizona.
And I finished in about 12 hoursand 14 minutes with my oldest
daughter crossing the finishline. That was cool. But the
UltraMan World Championships
Brian Hemsworth (28:55):
Yeah.
Adam Grant (28:56):
With my entire family there. That was it.
Brian Hemsworth (28:59):
Oh goodness, how long do you think you're
going to keep doing this?
Adam Grant (29:02):
Funny you should ask. So I have nowhere near
retiring. But I can tell youwhat I'm going to do when I
retire. Okay, one I'm going backto school and two my wife and I
are going to travel and there'sIronMans all over the world. So
I can go and do an Ironman shipmy bike back, and we could
travel so as far as I'mconcerned. Last time I heard
(29:23):
that the oldest person whofinished an Ironman was I think
it was 84-85 I'm good.
Brian Hemsworth (29:30):
Wow, what are you gonna go back to school for?
Adam Grant (29:33):
Not math and not science. Okay, I just when I was
in school, I loved learning. Iloved learning, reading. I love
history. I love politics. I wasa poli sci major and a double
minor with US history andpolitical philosophy. So
anything humanities, any socialsciences, I mean in sociology,
(29:55):
it was something I took. Ireally enjoyed Greek mythology.
I really really enjoyed it. Youknow, anything to keep my mind
active, but I love learning.
Brian Hemsworth (30:04):
I do a fair amount of teaching. And I,
somebody, psychologist friendthat I know, had asked me why.
And I said, Well, I just enjoyedI enjoy being in the classroom.
And he informed me that a lot ofpeople that teach, teach because
we like learning that we'veactually subconsciously we just
(30:24):
gravitate to that, to thosesurroundings. And I now after
about 17-18 years of mostlybeing an adjunct, have learned
that, oh my gosh, it's so true.
It keeps you on your game. Andnow with the internet, you have
students that are fact checkingyou in real time in the
classroom, which 17 years ago,they weren't, I could get away
with, you know, lecturing on,you know, just the, on whatever
(30:45):
was coming up in my mind. Andnow I've got to be on my game.
And I know it sounds reallycorny, but I learned an awful
lot from those students.
Everything that I've learned interms of social media, content
marketing, has really come frommy students. And I love that
ability to just keep learning. Ithink it's a little bit easier
(31:07):
for us now. I think we live in aworld where we're allowed to
keep learning and it almostfeels like a generation ago, you
kind of stopped and then youmoved into a different thing.
And lifelong learning is muchmore of a thing right now. So
for you it will be lifelonglearning, lifelong running, life
long riding is life long. SoI'm going to circle back to just
(31:28):
one because I gotta ask I'm, I'ma I'm a biker. You mentioned
that first road bike. Do youremember what that road bike?
Adam Grant (31:34):
Well, yes it was a Fuji was a Fuji. It was bronze
and color and I had toe cages.
And probably Shimano 105s on it.
And, and the shifters were wason on a stamp. Yeah, on the down
tube
Brian Hemsworth (31:50):
Yeah, mine was Shimano 600s. Yeah, one step
before the hams. It was a Biankey. And believe it or not, I
still have that by my garage.
It's got a lot of rust on it.
And I haven't written it in 20years, but I still have that
among others. Well, listen,Adam, I really appreciate your
coming in thanks for sharingsome of your background and
what's going on with the firmand some of these fun
(32:12):
experiences. I we just barelyscratched the surface. So at
some point later on, I'd love tohave you come back in and maybe
help educate us so we can keeplearning a little bit about not
only some of the stuff you'redoing outside I want to hear
about the adventures and the andthe, the competitions you do in
the learning but also you areable to bring us a lot of very
(32:34):
important stuff about law. Sothank you very much appreciate
your coming in for that.
Adam Grant (32:38):
Thank you.
Announcer (32:48):
Presented by Echelon Business Development. More than
just networking. Way more.
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