October 23, 2024 • 41 mins
Understanding the effectiveness of your marketing efforts’ is crucial, but figuring out how feels impossible.
One way to do this is through attribution—the process of figuring out which touchpoints or platforms get credit for driving sales.
Phoenix Ha, long-time Meta media buyer and marketer, now CEO and co-founder of the attribution platform AdBeacon is here to demystify the murky world of attribution for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Jessie Healy (00:02):
You're listening to the e commerce impact
podcast, where we share thelatest marketing strategies to
grow your e com store and havemore impact.
Hey, everyone, and welcome backto the e commerce impact podcast
today.
We have Phoenix heart on thepodcast with us to talk about
(00:22):
all things attribution.
So welcome along Phoenix.
Phoenix Ha (00:25):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
Thank you for
Jessie Healy (00:27):
Yeah, it's exciting.
And we just recorded an episodefor your podcast, which was
super fun.
So everyone should go and checkout fail with fire podcast.
That is that the right, I've gotthe name, right?
Phoenix Ha (00:37):
That is spot on.
Jessie Healy (00:38):
And we'll put all the details in the show notes,
but before we get started on, onthe chat, like, why don't you
introduce yourself to ouraudience and tell us a little
bit about your background andhow you got where you are today?
Phoenix Ha (00:50):
Yeah.
Great.
No, thank you for having meagain.
I love, love havingconversations with you and two
in one day.
Let's go.
For those of you who don't know,my name is Phoenix Ha.
I'm the CEO and co founder of afirst party data and attribution
platform called AdBeacon.
But my life wasn't made to be afirst party data nerd.
It actually started.
In modeling, weirdly enough.
(01:11):
So my background is in modelingand I did it since I was seven
years old.
I learned everything from the,yeah, the warehousing side, all
the way to the runway and printside.
That was my life for a reallylong time.
I think the constant in my lifeis craving more and digging
deeper with questions that wereunanswered.
(01:32):
So the first one was, okay, Iwant to learn a little bit more
about distribution and how thiswhole marketing thing works with
modeling.
Didn't feel fulfilled.
So then I went to a creativeagency, learned about that with
PR and experiential marketing,worked with brands like Nike and
impossible foods, et cetera.
Loved it.
But again, did not get to see a,a clear data point behind my
(01:54):
effort.
So it was a lot of like cloutand like a lot of buzz, but not
so much how much revenue we weredriving.
And that kind of bothered me.
So I left and I actually gotpoached to go over to Supra
footwear, which was a quick casewith global brand.
They had bought out Suprafootwear, which is a skate
brand.
I was the interim marketingdirector there and I learned so
much.
(02:15):
And.
Maybe a little too much toosoon, but it was great because I
learned what kind of leader Iwanted to become and what to do
with large budgets.
But again, did not hone in onthe DSC world.
At the time, all I knew wasscrappy mentality.
How do I sell out, you know,footwear drops in minutes with
no dollars in ad spend?
(02:35):
Did that loved it.
And then my whole life changed.
I went, you know, and decided towork with small businesses and
do some things.
And I looked at a, I needed ajob and I looked at this
LinkedIn ad for paid search.
And I was like, Oh, they'repaying people to search things.
It's like, I could do that.
(02:56):
And I ended up landing a job ata local agency in Los Angeles as
just like the grunt.
Entry level paid social expert,quote unquote expert.
But I got obsessed and again,this is that pursuit.
And through that pursuit, Iended up becoming the director
of that entire department wasable to increase their book of
(03:17):
business by 200 percent within avery short period of time.
And then iOS 14 happened.
Which is what demolished ourindustry in terms of tracking
and attribution, which we'll gointo a little bit later.
But I lost almost 40 percent ofmy book of business.
And my CEO looked at me, he'slike, what are you going to do
to fix this?
So by strike of luck and chanceand perfect timing, I actually
(03:40):
started speaking out loud abouthow to pivot.
And that's where I shared a lotof stages with Jesse, where I
didn't necessarily get to meetyou, but we were on similar
stages and I was just testingout loud, Andrew, Android versus
Apple.
And then discover somethingbeautiful called first party
data.
And again, obsessive felt likethis is the answer.
I know it is.
However, I don't love what's onthe market currently.
(04:02):
I want to make something that Iknow is right for my team.
And that's where ad beacon wasborn.
So I had two co founders andmyself, and I try to be the
visionary with my co founders ofwhat it's going to become.
And we celebrated a two yearanniversary in August of 2024,
and we are thriving.
I'm so happy.
And.
This is where my life is today.
Jessie Healy (04:24):
Amazing.
What a story.
So from model to marketer todigital marketer and now to like
SAS entrepreneur, I love it.
What a journey.
And like, I'm sure every part ofthat journey, you've learned so
much, which I'm sure you cantalk to us about today.
But I always think like varietyreally does like build us as
entrepreneurs and allows us to.
(04:45):
You know, be better at what wedo.
I always my waitressing job, Ithink, contributed to my great
customer service.
So
Phoenix Ha (04:51):
yeah,
Jessie Healy (04:52):
definitely.
Okay.
So tell us then.
Like, imagine you are explainingthis to someone who's pretty new
in the space to attribution.
They might have some questionsaround, should I be spending my
money on Google or Facebook orwhat's happening here?
I don't really like Googleanalytics isn't really telling
me much of a story.
Like what is attribution?
(05:14):
What does it do and how does itwork?
Phoenix Ha (05:17):
great questions.
Okay.
And I love, I wouldn't saydumbing it down.
I say simplifying very complexconcepts.
I think that's really what itcomes down to.
So attribution in the simplestform is just basically who, who
being what platform meta GooglePinterest gets credit for a
sale.
Within a given amount of time.
So there's two aspects, like whogets credit and within what span
(05:39):
of time.
So a great example of that is anattribution window, right?
These are big words, but it justmeans who gets credit within a
window of time of, let's justsay seven days.
And you're like, okay, withinseven days, who gets the credit?
The secondary component of thatis, well, how much credit?
And there are different types ofmodels and different types of
(06:00):
concepts, which I'll go through.
And then they're all very, veryeasy to understand if they're
simplified.
So, for example, first clickattribution is just dumbed down
to how do people find you?
So what is their firstinteraction via click, a
tangible click?
And that's usually theintroduction to the brand.
Last click attribution, and whatwas the click right before they
(06:21):
bought?
So what platform did they clickon in terms of an ad right
before they bought or it couldbe organic.
So that's last clickattribution.
So first click is how they findyou.
Last click is how they convertfrom you.
And then there's other conceptslike linear of giving equal
credit to every single touchpoint, right?
So if there's four clicks, fourdifferent channels, each one
(06:41):
gets 25 percent credit.
And then there's other ones andit gets way more complex.
And there's always been thisdebate going back and forth of
which one to use and when to useit.
And my, my stance has alwaysbeen.
Every media buyer is different.
That's why brains are gorgeous.
I'm going to give you very cleandata and let you decide.
So that I think is the simplestform.
(07:02):
And then there's one last layerto attribution.
And it's two forms.
One is view attribution andclick attribution.
So view just means if I saw anad within a given amount of
time, that platform gets credit.
And click attribution is if theyclicked on my ad within a
certain amount of time, it getscredit.
(07:22):
My personal stance is I don'tlook at view attribution
personally, because.
As much as I understand view issuch a important metric, there
is a difference between viewmetrics and view attribution.
View metrics are things like,you know, someone viewing your
ad for 25, 50, you know, 100percent of the time if it's a
video or there's certain thingsthere.
(07:45):
However, view attribution says,Let's just say meta gets the
credit.
And again, what is a view?
Is it my grandmother scrollingthrough an ad fumbling, thinking
things through, or is it acertain amount of time?
So that proprietary blend ofview metrics that deems it to be
a view attribution, I would saycredit.
(08:05):
I don't know what that isbecause I don't know what that
is.
I don't trust it and I can't useit.
So I hope that was clarified.
We've got what attribution isand then the different types of
attribution and the differenttypes of attribution models.
Jessie Healy (08:18):
got it.
So let's talk about just to likebreak it down even further, like
how the different platforms.
Attribute to themselves.
And then like how a platformlike Google analytics would
attribute.
So if I understand correctly,Facebook attributes only for
seven days and by default, they,they attribute one day of view,
(08:38):
like viewed ads and seven daysof click, but you can change it
yourself if you want to, butthat only gonna, you're only
going to get credit for the saleand Facebook ads manager.
If the person converts withinseven days, is that still the
case?
Phoenix Ha (08:51):
You can still break it out to 28 day.
I think they just opened it up.
So like back in the day beforeiOS 14, the default was actually
28 day click seven day view.
So it was much bigger.
So think about like a companythat sells one of my clients
sells golf launch monitors orsimulators.
I always call it the Jay Z'sunless you're Jay Z and have Jay
(09:12):
Z money.
You're not going to buy thatwithin a day of looking at an
ad.
It's going to take some time.
So You know, the 28 day clickseven day view really helped
that understanding that journeynow that it's been cut down
defaulted to seven day click oneday view.
right.
It's, it's limited.
You can open it up, but again,it's still kind of a hazy world.
Jessie Healy (09:33):
And you have to open it up and like find it.
It's not, and the algorithm'snot taking into account the 28
days.
It's just taking into accountthe seven.
So yeah, like, unless you arelike a fast moving product where
people make a pretty impulsedecision, chances are a good
chunk of your sales are going tohappen outside of the seven day
window from click.
And therefore we're not going toknow that Facebook is the reason
(09:57):
or Mesa is the reason why thatsale happened.
Yeah.
But Google, on the other hand is28 day, right?
By default.
I
Phoenix Ha (10:04):
Yeah.
It's 28.
So there's a, there's a lot offlaws with both Google and meta,
et cetera.
And it's actually not theirfault.
So let's like take it back toiOS 14.
So what is iOS 14?
It was that pop up on an Appledevice that said, do you to be
tracked?
You're asking to be tracked and99 percent of everybody is
going, heck no, I don't want tobe tracked.
(10:24):
You know, screw the government.
I don't want it yet.
Totally get it.
Totally get it.
However, what it really did isit handcuffed the ability for
advertisers to identify whopeople are.
Even the, the ability that wehad was already limited, but
even far more limited.
It delayed data and also justput a lot of boundaries as to
(10:45):
what Meta could share andcouldn't share a track and
couldn't track.
And this impacted a lot.
So again, to your point of likeseven days is a very short
amount of time.
That's scary.
Google, however, the way thatGoogle tracks, very similar to
meta.
The thing is, is that Google isalso kind of going through its
own iOS right now with Googleanalytics for being an
(11:07):
interesting product.
A lot of users are not happywith a firm example of that.
You look like you're laughing.
You might be one of those
Jessie Healy (11:15):
just didn't, didn't want to have to learn a
whole new package for a star.
Like, and I think a lot ofmarketers, we, we learned it
when we were like younger and wehad time and now I don't have
time to learn a whole new thing.
Like it's a lot.
Phoenix Ha (11:26):
we all had it on our linkedin like google analytics
certified, right?
Like I don't even it's justagain again back to a standpoint
of a platform You want people touse it not learn how to use your
platform and then use it that'sjust like another step in the
process, but The biggest issue Ihad actually with it is that,
you know, Google AnalyticsUniversal doesn't translate over
(11:48):
to Google Analytics 4.
So all the data you hadpreviously does not go hand in
hand.
Like, you can't do a comparisonthat's clean unless you, you
completely extrapolated thatdata, put it with the new
formulas with Google Analytics4.
Another thing that's reallyimportant for us to understand
is that these platforms onlycare about themselves.
(12:08):
Google Analytics 4 And that'slike so important that we need
to understand is I think for solong, we saw great numbers in
Google and Meta and we're like,hell yeah, like this is great,
but we never took a extreme lookback to our Shopify WooCommerce
or BigCommerce stores orwhatever you're on.
And went, is this true?
When you see your businessthriving, you obviously see a
(12:31):
correlation.
It might be not, might not be acomplete picture, but you see a
correlation of going up on metaand up on Google.
And then you see your Shopifystory going up.
Why are you complaining?
When iOS 14 happened, youstarted to see the veil back and
it was way scarier than wethought.
So let me take it back for asecond.
(12:51):
Google favors.
Google.
It's in the name.
Meta favors meta.
It's in the name.
So, when you use these types ofplatforms to tell you how much
money they made you, you justhave to take that into account.
Jessie Healy (13:04):
Totally.
And this is the thing, right?
I've, I've said it a milliontimes to brands I work with,
like, We can only trust Googleanalytics as far as we can trust
Google.
And, you know, Google's goal,their absolute obligation to
their shareholders is to makemore money.
And they'll make more money ifthey, if they make our campaigns
look good.
(13:25):
So is Google going to be themost neutral party to use, to
tell us which platform meta orGoogle who are sworn enemies of
each other works best?
No, it's absolutely not.
And like the, the way that, thatthe way they're like, Designing
the way that data is kind ofcrunched in the back end.
Like we're not, we're not datascientists able to see that
(13:46):
whole algorithm and how thatworks.
So I'm not saying that they areblatantly like making it.
But it's definitely going to bemaking some decisions that make
generally make Google appearbetter.
And then Google has this otherthing that I'm on my soapbox
now.
But Google is more of a bottomof funnel channel generally.
I mean, they're trying to behigher funnel with like YouTube
(14:06):
and other platforms like that.
But generally like search,someone is already searching for
the brand or they already knowthey need the product.
They're going to convert fairlyhigh at the bottom of the
funnel, but oftentimes theywon't even get there.
If you haven't done something atthe top, which generally happens
on meta or tech talk or YouTubesometimes as well.
So bottom of funnel channelsalways look like they perform
(14:26):
better.
So brands will always come to meand go, it'd be like, Google
performs way better than meta.
And I'm like, try turning metaoff and then come back to me and
see what you're going to say.
So, yeah, I think the, theanswer is we need a platform.
That's neutral to the two orneutral to all the channels.
That's not like funded for free.
Like you get it for free fromGoogle.
That should tell you something.
(14:47):
Right.
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (14:50):
mass adoption over a product that they want you to
use more of.
And, again, let's Go back to theconcept of a funnel in
marketing.
It's a top of funnels, peoplewho've never heard of you
before.
Then you've got middle offunnel, which is retargeting,
you know, people who have heardof you, but haven't yet
converted.
And then the true bottom offunnel is people who have
converted, but you know, youwant to re engage with them.
(15:10):
And what is the most commonmistake people make is that they
see great results at middle offunnel, the bottom of funnels.
So they put all of their spendthere, but they forget that
they're squeezing out.
The very small amount of peoplethat know about them and they're
no longer bringing in morepeople and to your point of like
bottom of funnel channels likeGoogle, that's very common.
(15:30):
So everything looks great therebecause you're saying they're
already looking for thatproduct.
It's going to happen, you know,with meta, it's different.
It's like people might not needthat product, but you're showing
it to them.
They're like, Oh, wow, this is adiscovery channel.
If you hear my dog drinkingwater, she's a loud yeah, no,
and we, I really, you know,taking it back again, I was a
(15:53):
meta paid media strategist.
So like away from ad beacon, Ineeded a solution.
And when I looked at meta, Ijust didn't feel right telling
my client, like, let's just say,Jesse, you're my client.
I'm like, congratulations, youmade 50, 000.
It says that in meta.
And then I go into your Shopifystore.
It's like, you made 25, 000.
And I'm like, I cannot say this.
(16:13):
There is an attribution modelthat we have figured out that is
as close to meta as possible.
And there's two things Iunveiled during this iOS 14 time
that was really, really scary.
The first one is this concept offull impact model.
And I talked about linear, firstclick, last click.
Full impact is basically everysingle click in the journey gets
(16:35):
100 percent credit.
So if you think about it likethis, if there were four clicks
in a journey and a hundreddollars sale and we used full
impact and all four clicks weremeta, then it would report$400
and four orders.
But that's not true.
It was one order,$400, but wegave every click a hundred
percent credit.
'cause we wanted to look at theimpact of every single campaign
(16:55):
ad set and ad.
So when I switched over to fullimpact in our platform, it got
closer to the meta numbers.
There's also a secondarycomponent.
That's scary.
And I started to look through alot of our clients because I did
a beta test of 40 clients beforewe even launched this.
And I was looking through and Isaw that there was a
hyperinflation between a 55 to70 percent lean range of the
(17:19):
revenue that was Yeah.
So one of the things to rememberis that no matter for how many
people are watching video get 30percent of what you're watching
in the data, it's actually whoyou actually saw at one point,
whatever.
And so then you're going to setup a 55 to 70 percent of the
revenue you're saying is justfrom that, but then the rest was
click.
That's a problem.
And the problem with that is Ican't prove the view side.
(17:42):
I can only potentially prove theclick side.
So now you're at the mercy of aplatform.
Jessie Healy (17:49):
that's definitely true in some accounts.
It's not true in all accounts.
And that's why like every, youknow, every business, every
account is different.
Like we definitely see.
I've noticed that for likebeauty brands that have a lot of
like organic reach andengagement, they'll get like so
many views through conversions,because I think people are just
like seeing the ad flash upbefore they buy, but they were
going to buy it anyway becauseof like the founder's content.
(18:11):
Whereas like in other, otherareas where maybe they don't
have as strong of a socialprofile or they just just for
whatever reason, they're like,their business is different.
We won't see as many.
Like view through conversionsbeing kind of like taking all
the credit.
So it's something to look for,isn't it?
Like, regardless of whether youuse an attribution platform,
it's a, it's a metric you shouldalways be looking at is like
(18:33):
view through conversions versus.
Click through conversions andthen make a decision as to where
this optimized for one or theother.
So yeah,
Phoenix Ha (18:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you get to understand thebuying behavior and you have to
make the decision as a businessowner of which one you feel more
comfortable with, like to your,and again, the way I look at
things is if I know it's abeauty brand and first click is
really strong on meta, then Iknow for a fact that people are
finding out, but they'reprobably be terrible last click
because they probably come back.
Through Google or, you know,organic search and then the
(19:02):
organic channels have a lot ofattribution towards it because
they continuously re engage withthe community aspect.
It really depends on yourbusiness.
So you, I think you nail righton the head.
Jessie Healy (19:12):
yeah, exactly.
And it's like, no, your numbersknow where to look for these
things and like, and have a lookat those numbers on a regular
basis.
Totally.
Okay, cool.
So attribution.
In a general, in a generalsense, we now understand it's
like having a kind of neutralsystem in the middle that allows
you to like, see the true storyand you can decide whether you
(19:32):
want to attribute the firstclick, the last click, give
everyone credit, whatever youdecide is up to you as a
business and will depend on likewhat you're trying to kind of
do.
So tell us about, tell us aboutad beacon and how ad beacon fits
into that and like, what'sdifferent about your tool versus
other tools that are out there.
Right.
Phoenix Ha (19:51):
Yeah, easy.
You know, I built this tool assomething I needed selfishly.
For my team, let's be completelyhonest.
I have a different perspective.
I'm a media buyer.
So, you know, the first thing isI didn't build this for brand
owners.
I built this for the tacticians,for the agency teams, for the
media buyers.
Why?
Because they're the ones usingthese tools to scale your
(20:12):
brands.
And often we were thrown toolsthat just, Were given to us and
we had just deal with it.
It was a good, but not a great.
And I wanted to build a greatfor the team.
So that was the firstdifference.
And I knew what we needed.
So attribution is just one partof the whole picture.
AdBeacon is, understands thatattribution is just the
foundation.
(20:32):
Now, what do we do with it?
So, you know, that trickles allthe way over to what makes us
different.
Well, now I know exactly whatproducts people are buying all
the way down to the ad level.
and then I can optimize mylanding pages to have higher
conversion rates.
I want to know little thingslike that are just like the aha
moment.
when we designed this platform,we really thought about like,
(20:53):
okay, what's next?
It's a read and react format.
We're reading the data now.
What?
So.
We have a full product journeythat tells you a complete upsell
flow.
So I don't have to dig throughthe data nonstop to figure out
if someone buys this product,they're most likely to buy this
and this next.
And then we ask ourselves,what's the lifetime value of
that product?
And that's where you take ajunior media buyer into a senior
(21:14):
media buyer, where they're nowasking better questions to then
help Brand scale.
So that's just a completelydifferent take that we had.
Now, when it comes to, I'll becompletely frank with you when
it comes to tracking.
We're no different thaneverybody else.
Everyone has the same way oftracking.
We have a pixel Okay, there's,and the margin of error is
(21:36):
probably going to be relativelythe same.
Now it's what you do with thatdata and it's clean and it's
easy to understand that takesyou to the next level.
So I would say that's, that's adbeacon and where we are.
Jessie Healy (21:47):
Interesting.
Yeah.
So like when we, and I guessyou're solving one of those
frustrations that you have as amedia buyer, when you're looking
at ads manager and you don'tknow what product people bought
and whether they're a newcustomer or not as well, right,
like And Google analyticsdoesn't tell you either what
product people bought.
I don't, as far as I know, Ihaven't found a way to do that.
And it definitely doesn't tellyou if someone was a net new
(22:07):
customer to the business.
It tells them, it tells you howmany new users you've got within
a time period, but not whethersomeone came and bought for the
first time or the 20th time.
So yeah, those are two thingsthat are super super useful to
have in a tool.
So, okay.
So can you walk us through likean example of a client of yours
and how it.
(22:29):
How a tool like AdBeacon canactually make them make more
money.
Like, how does that
Phoenix Ha (22:34):
Oh yeah.
I'll use a, a brand calledBrixton, Brixton Apparel.
Love them.
So I was their media buyer.
And the first problem that I hadwas, I'll use this use case as
my favorite case study is wewere trying to figure out, okay
You know, during Black Friday,Cyber Monday, what ads do best?
And again, I don't like to workoff data that I can't prove.
(22:56):
It's literally what it comesdown to.
So, often what, and this isgreat for you, Jesse, with the
creative side, is, We wouldoften get the question from
their team.
What types of creatives do weneed to do?
Do we need to do more video?
Do we do more stills, et cetera?
But because we had first partydata and we had proof behind
every dollar, we were able toshow them in ad beacon, which
(23:17):
which media types are likezoomed in macro shots of the
apparel off body did far betterin terms of revenue than on body
with a model.
Huge.
We were also able to tell themthat one female model drove far
more revenue than a differentfemale model.
However, the other female modeldrove far more clicks.
Jessie Healy (23:37):
Wow.
Phoenix Ha (23:38):
Interesting.
So what we don't realize iscommercial versus direct to
consumer can be very different.
So that's just one thing.
Then we were able to do stand bynew customers versus returning
customers and what creativedrove far more new customers
versus returning.
And then my second, so that waseasy, low hanging fruit.
So during black Friday, cyberMonday, they basically turned
off all on body and just reallypushed into their flannels of
(24:01):
zoomed in macro shots andprinted money.
It was like you, you could, itwas just un, it was ridiculous
ROAS, ridiculous numbers andrevenue.
And I was so proud of that.
The second portion that Ithought was a next step was we
had a collaboration with a localartist and they had a, like a
really bright red sweater and,you know, the brand awareness is
(24:25):
usually why you would do acollaboration.
You bring in new eyes.
So we drove people to thelanding page of that red
sweater.
Pretty simple.
And the CEO calls me at Brixtonand was like, Turn off this ad.
Turn it off right now.
It's not doing anything.
And I'm like, I'm not going todo that.
It's printing money.
And he's like, what do you mean?
And I'm like, it's, it literallyis one of our best performing
(24:45):
ads.
I'm not going to turn this off.
And he went, turn it off becausewe're not selling any of those
units.
And I had to have thatconversation.
Well, well, the thing aboutdirect to consumer is our job is
to drive traffic, qualifiedtraffic.
They might buy other thingscause they can browse the site
by headwear or whatever.
(25:05):
They might not buy that product,but that drove them to the site.
And he goes, well, what productsdid they buy?
And I couldn't answer thatquestion and that really
frustrated me.
So we fixed it and now we knew.
So what happened?
We found out that people wereactually buying headwear,
snapbacks.
So what do we do?
We optimize the landing page toshowcase that sweater.
But we had three snapbacks.
Then we had a AOV play, a bundleplay, and we drove massive sell
(25:29):
through.
So those are just little thingswe did.
Yeah.
Jessie Healy (25:32):
Yeah.
It's like taking the blindfoldoff, isn't it?
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And that whole thing of like,This, the ad that brings people
in isn't necessarily the ad thatthe product that people buy is
so true.
When I worked at Etsy, Iremember we would have, I think
without shopping ads, it wassomething like 90 percent of the
time people didn't buy theproducts that came in through
(25:54):
the shopping ad to look atbecause they then landed on Etsy
and found a whole bunch of otherstuff that suited their needs
and they would buy.
So it's about like identifyingwhat's the ad unit that's going
to bring in the people thatactually end up buying.
And then deeper than that.
Like what did they buy?
And therefore, like, what shouldwe show them when they get
there?
And then deeper than that, likewhich units will bring people in
(26:14):
who have never like bought fromthe brand before, who are worth
more to you, right?
Because you can convert yourexisting customers.
I mean, you should be throughemail, through social, et
cetera, but bringing in net newcustomers is how business will
truly be able to grow.
So understanding that level.
It's really, really important.
That's awesome.
So Brixton, are they, I have toask, are they from Brixton in
(26:35):
London?
Cause I used to live there, butI don't think they are
Phoenix Ha (26:38):
No, they're a San Diego based brand, but I know
that they take lineage fromthat.
Yeah, they're, they're crazy.
So they, they're a music drivenbrand, but then they kind of
landed themselves in surf andskate as well.
And they're very well known fortheir headwear.
So like,
Jessie Healy (26:56):
I've seen their caps hats.
Yeah, definitely.
Phoenix Ha (26:58):
yeah, caps like Peaky They have that and then
they have cowboy hats andeverything.
And I grew up looking at thisbrand.
So it was kind of easy to mediabuy for them, but really really
fun
Jessie Healy (27:08):
Yeah.
So how are you kind of likesetting up a test like that, or
like, how are you designing yourcreative testing framework in
order to harness these?
Kind of insights.
Like, are you saying like in anideal world, would you have set
up like on body versus like,well, I think you said it was
(27:29):
like on body versus model shotsor something like that.
So are you like designing a testwhere you have these diverse
different elements in there andyou're purposely kind of putting
budget against them in order tolike answer a question?
Phoenix Ha (27:42):
V1, V2.
So let's go back to liketraditional way of, of AB
testing creative is you would goin there and I believe that you
have to have a control.
The control would be actuallymultiple aspects would be the
headline and the copy thatshouldn't change.
The only thing that shouldchange is the creative and it
should be an image or if it's avideo, it's a video, right?
So it can't be, you know, a testa is an image and test B is a
(28:06):
video and there's multiplecomponents to So it would be
version one would be same copy,same headline, but the image
showcases.
Let's just say a flannel upclose commercial shot zoomed in
with the branding.
Not on a model.
And the second V2 would be thesame headline, same copy, but it
would be a lifestyle shot on themodel, right?
(28:30):
Of the same flannel.
I would make sure that we try toget relative same spend against
AB and then see which performsbetter.
And we did this across multipleflannels, multiple products.
And we saw a clear winnerbecause what we do in our
platform is we take an imagehash.
So the idea is multiple mad ormedia buyers.
(28:50):
What they do is they take one adand then they duplicate it like
15 times across the entire adaccount.
It could live in multipledifferent audiences.
What we do is we pull the imagehash and say, how is that
individual creative doing?
So then we say, okay, theremight be multiple forms of this
different headlines, differentcopy, but how is this specific
(29:11):
image performing and because ofthat we were able to deduce and
through deductive reasoning,realize, wow, okay, this is
what's working and then weleaned into it during Black
Friday, Cyber Monday and sawsuch great
Jessie Healy (29:22):
Amazing.
Yeah.
So that's, that's the otherunlock, isn't it?
Because if you have a fairlycomplex account with like
multiple like audiences thatyou're testing or like regions
or whatever, you're not going tohave the rolled up information
about that one particular ad.
Yeah.
And you won't then be able tosay and does it, does the system
allow you to say like, whetherthis, you know, Worked at top of
(29:44):
funnel versus bottom of funnel,like, because sometimes you'll
be like, these are our bestperforming ads.
Oh, those are just all ourretargeting ads.
Phoenix Ha (29:51):
Yeah.
So what it does, it's cool.
You get to see it overview, likein a table format, like a nerd.
I love it.
And then you can actually clickon the individual creative and
it'll show you every singlecampaign ad set and add that
this creative lives So you cansee, and then spend relative to
it.
And then you can actually provethat.
Every single person who boughtfrom these ads.
So it, it really gets granular.
(30:13):
My personal favorite recently istwo things we're able to do.
One is tagging.
So to your point of like, if youhave a bunch of ads and let's
just say this isn't a specificcategory of headwear, you just
want to know how headwear adsare doing.
You can tag certain creative,say headwear, and then do a
comparison report against maybebottoms.
And that's separate tags.
You can see that.
(30:34):
Another thing I'm really stokedon is we're looking right now at
carousel versus image versusvideo.
It's a full roll up that tellsyou how many ads you have of
that format, how much you'vespent against each of those
formats, and how much revenue inall those metrics, and then you
can decide with your creativeteam which one you need to start
doubling
Jessie Healy (30:53):
Right.
Okay.
So you can kind of splice anddice the data by creative unit,
I presume via like copy orheadline as well via like what
format you're looking at, whatpart of the funnel it's in.
Yeah, awesome.
That sounds really cool.
So I've had a demo of it myselfand it looks like it's, you've
sort of mirrored a little bitthe the interface of like
(31:15):
Facebook ads or Meta adsmanager.
Cause you've kind of, come at itas a media buyer, right?
Yeah.
Cool.
Phoenix Ha (31:22):
It's like a, I wanted, I wanted my team.
So as a leader of, of the team,what is the hardest thing to do?
Introduce another damn tool.
Sorry if I curse, but like this,this is one of those things
where it's like, I never wantedanother tool.
So let me just reduce thefriction points.
So we purposely had it looklike, you know, the Facebook ads
(31:45):
manager.
We say it's inspiration of, sothen you can go in and work
within five minutes.
We should make your life easier,not harder.
So that, that was a big reasonfor that
Jessie Healy (31:53):
That's awesome.
So.
Taking a step back, like I workwith early stage brands and then
I work with some bigger kind ofeight and nine figure brands as
well.
So I work kind of across thespectrum at what stage do you
think attribution an attributiontool like this?
Because there is a cost to itversus like using just the
platform data or GoogleAnalytics.
At what stage do you think itbecomes?
(32:15):
ROI positive, I guess, to investin an attribution tool.
Phoenix Ha (32:20):
Yeah.
So it always starts withmargins.
I start there.
You know, we purposely pricedourselves again, like not more
than half a percent of yourmonthly revenue.
The way that we looked at thatpricing was very strategic.
However, again, even so youmight be really slim with your
margins and that's still toomuch.
So first of all, margins wise,make sure that you can afford
(32:41):
this type of Second of all iswhat I look at as usually 50,
000, 20 to 50, 000 in spend.
Across all channels is the righttime in my opinion to start
looking at this because if it'sjust one channel Yes, we will be
helpful But it's always great tosee the full picture and then
(33:01):
the way that I look at it, tooIs unless you are able to dive
into this platform like an adbeacon It's really not going to
help you, which is why I reallytargeted towards agencies and
media buyers and no offense tobrand owners.
If you're in a stage whereyou're doing all the media
buying and you're also doing theshipping and you're also talking
to everybody in terms of, of allthe vendors, et cetera, it's
(33:24):
almost impossible to fullyutilize a platform like AdBeacon
to its extent to be able toscale.
It's advanced.
So I always say, you know, it's,it's more so who's doing your
media buying than where you'reat.
But again, margins is
Jessie Healy (33:39):
Yeah.
So you're, so ideally if you'rehearing this and it sounds
interesting and you haven't gotattribution set up yet, could be
something where you talk to youragency about them kind of
adopting AdBeacon, or if you'redoing media buying in house and
you have like an expert mediabuyer who's running your ads for
you, they're going to be superexcited to work with a tool like
this.
And I mean, there's lots ofother kind of like tools that do
(34:01):
different things out there onthe marketplace.
Like, what do you think makes.
different to say your triplewhale, your North beam, or even
ones like alivar or blood outthat do a little bit different.
They're kind of like sendingdata back into the platforms.
What are the key differences?
Phoenix Ha (34:18):
I would say we're a no BS platform to be extremely
blunt.
And what I mean by that is weare a click attribution only
platform.
We actually do not report onview attribution.
I made that pretty clear earlyon.
The second thing is we don'thave any proprietary or black
box attribution models and mostcompanies want and need that to
(34:39):
be, you know, kind of the coolmarketing play.
We don't do that.
We sterilize the data completelyand that is really to put it
back in your hands.
And the last part is just thementality and the way we
designed it.
We have a very different goal.
Our goal is to be a tool formedia buyers.
Our goal is not to have brandsswipe their credit cards.
So for me, I listened to themedia buyers.
(35:00):
This is a community drivenplatform.
It's a completely differenttake, and it's not a knock on
any other platform, but you haveto understand that to the back
to the first question is.
If you are a smaller brand thathas invested in an agency to
help grow you, AdBeacon is onlygoing to make it 10 times
better.
It's just in the hands ofsomeone who's qualified that's
(35:20):
able to utilize it.
Jessie Healy (35:21):
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (35:22):
Versus you going to my competitor and you have to
incur that cost yourself, andyou're feeling the weight of
both an agency's price point,also another tool, and then all
the other tools.
So, I would say that's the big,big component
Jessie Healy (35:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I would say to add to like,sorry, back to the earlier
question.
It just struck me that like thetime when you need attribution
beyond, like, if you're at thatspin level of like 20 K plus, if
you're maybe not quite at thatspin level, but you're lying
awake, asking yourself questionsabout, you don't know whether
it's Google or whether it'smeta, that's like the lever to
(35:56):
pull.
And you don't know how to answerthat question.
And you don't have like, A cleanview of like, are people
discovering me through Google orthrough meta or through tick
tock or whatever else you're at,you know, you might be doing
stuff with affiliates, SEO, etcetera.
If those questions are holdingyou back and meaning that you
can't move forward and makeconfidence spend decisions, and
you're just sort of lost in asea of contradictory data, that
(36:18):
probably a good point when youneed to look at exploring some
kind of attribution tool,whether it's ad beacon or any of
the others that I mentioned.
And then So, yeah, I justthought that would kind of add
to the conversation.
Okay.
Awesome.
Well it's been a great chat.
Is there anything else you wantto share with the audience
before we go?
Any yeah, any insights about theindustry?
What's happening at the moment?
(36:38):
Any advice for Black Friday?
Phoenix Ha (36:41):
Yeah, I mean, so first and foremost, I always
like to leave a nugget.
I'm seeing across a lot ofaccounts, carousels, image, like
still image carousel ads arewrecking house right I always
believe like creating silence inthe noisy of noise is the way
that you impact.
So what was something thateveryone was preaching so many
years?
It's like video, video, video.
And because you've seen so muchvideo, now you're seeing an
(37:04):
image.
It just stops you in yourtracks.
Founder led, founder ledcreative is killing it in terms
of, I wouldn't say even UGC, butit's like a splice and dice of a
video.
But almost UGC esque, where it'sjust an iPhone telling the story
of your brand because peoplewant to invest in brands now and
who they are and they don't wantthis.
(37:25):
Kind of like a behind the veiltype of vibe.
They want to know.
They want to be invested.
And I think the only thing toois like, if you're going into
Black Friday, Cyber Monday, myonly suggestion is to have a
plan and then have a backupplan.
Jessie Healy (37:38):
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (37:39):
You never know what's going to happen, so be
prepared to react And be beagile.
Jessie Healy (37:44):
a backup ad account too, it's not a bad
Phoenix Ha (37:46):
Yes, please.
Please, please.
Actually, Brixton, perfectexample, needed a back up ad
account right before BlackFriday Cyber Monday a few years
ago.
We got hacked, and if it wasn'tfor that back up ad account, we
would not, you know, been ableto recover.
So, I wish you guys the best of
Jessie Healy (38:01):
in my agency, we had, we used to onboard a new
client and have them set up abackup account the day we
onboarded them, because we wereso spooked by like times when
clients had accounts that gotshut down and we'd got the
blame.
So we were like, if you've got abackup ad account, we told you
this might happen.
So, yeah.
So quick question on thecarousel, cause I'm always
curious.
So.
You're talking like manualcarousels.
(38:22):
We're not talking like catalogads that pull the catalog, like
selecting individual productsand putting them into the
carousel telling the story.
Interesting.
And
Phoenix Ha (38:32):
right?
I'm doing video.
I'm doing a UGC carousel rightnow as a test because I just for
everyone to know, like, yeah, Irun a platform, but I also like
to still media by to keep myselfstill in the game.
Right?
So we are testing UGC carouselvideo.
So video carousel.
We're also we did a lot of stillimagery carousel.
(38:53):
We just saw the algorithm justreally lean towards that.
Spending towards carousel, butthen it was, it was the best,
you know, generating in terms ofperformance.
But then yeah, still imagerytalent manual, of course,
catalog this while DPA as well,you know, like always has
Jessie Healy (39:10):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And yeah, founder ads.
I could see that being, Iremember founder ads popping off
during the pandemic becausepeople were like.
I want to buy from people.
I want to support real brands.
This is a tough time.
And I think now with theeconomic situation, it's
probably the same thing.
If I'm going to buy something, Iwant to buy something that helps
someone, a nice real person, nota corporation.
(39:30):
So lean into that.
I would say, yeah, I love that.
Awesome.
So where can people follow you?
Find your find your business,let us know, and I'll put it all
in the show notes.
Awesome.
Phoenix Ha (39:41):
Yeah.
I mean, AdBeacon.
com easy, easy, easy.
But for me specifically, it'sunderscore.
Phoenix ha on Twitter.
You can find me on Tik Tok.
That's actually a live casestudy for anyone who thinks this
is fun.
Went viral multiple times duringthe pandemic.
And it was all actually just atest on different hooks sold out
multiple products within amatter of days.
(40:02):
So please check that out.
And then you know, Instagram, ifyou want to know me personally,
that's where like you see mydogs and my husband and my not
so much marketing, but yeah,feel free to ask any questions.
I'm here to help.
Jessie Healy (40:14):
to have you on.
Thanks again.
Phoenix Ha (40:17):
Thanks for having me.
Jessie Healy (40:20):
Thanks so much for joining us here on the e
commerce impact podcast.
If I can ask you one favor, canyou please make sure you
subscribe?
And if you can leave us areview, it helps us have a much
bigger impact with what we'retrying to do here at the e
commerce impact podcast.
Now, if you're ready to takeyour e com store to the next
level, then go to www.
ecommerceimpactpodcast.
com and click on the button tobook a strategy call with me and
(40:41):
my team.
We offer a free order of youradvertising and a custom growth
plan.
So you really have nothing tolose by getting in touch and
jumping on a call with us.
See you soon and watch out forthe next episode in two weeks
time.
You're listening to the e commerce impact
podcast, where we share thelatest marketing strategies to
grow your e com store and havemore impact.
Hey, everyone, and welcome backto the e commerce impact podcast
today.
We have Phoenix heart on thepodcast with us to talk about
(00:22):
all things attribution.
So welcome along Phoenix.
Phoenix Ha (00:25):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
Thank you for
Jessie Healy (00:27):
Yeah, it's exciting.
And we just recorded an episodefor your podcast, which was
super fun.
So everyone should go and checkout fail with fire podcast.
That is that the right, I've gotthe name, right?
Phoenix Ha (00:37):
That is spot on.
Jessie Healy (00:38):
And we'll put all the details in the show notes,
but before we get started on, onthe chat, like, why don't you
introduce yourself to ouraudience and tell us a little
bit about your background andhow you got where you are today?
Phoenix Ha (00:50):
Yeah.
Great.
No, thank you for having meagain.
I love, love havingconversations with you and two
in one day.
Let's go.
For those of you who don't know,my name is Phoenix Ha.
I'm the CEO and co founder of afirst party data and attribution
platform called AdBeacon.
But my life wasn't made to be afirst party data nerd.
It actually started.
In modeling, weirdly enough.
(01:11):
So my background is in modelingand I did it since I was seven
years old.
I learned everything from the,yeah, the warehousing side, all
the way to the runway and printside.
That was my life for a reallylong time.
I think the constant in my lifeis craving more and digging
deeper with questions that wereunanswered.
(01:32):
So the first one was, okay, Iwant to learn a little bit more
about distribution and how thiswhole marketing thing works with
modeling.
Didn't feel fulfilled.
So then I went to a creativeagency, learned about that with
PR and experiential marketing,worked with brands like Nike and
impossible foods, et cetera.
Loved it.
But again, did not get to see a,a clear data point behind my
(01:54):
effort.
So it was a lot of like cloutand like a lot of buzz, but not
so much how much revenue we weredriving.
And that kind of bothered me.
So I left and I actually gotpoached to go over to Supra
footwear, which was a quick casewith global brand.
They had bought out Suprafootwear, which is a skate
brand.
I was the interim marketingdirector there and I learned so
much.
(02:15):
And.
Maybe a little too much toosoon, but it was great because I
learned what kind of leader Iwanted to become and what to do
with large budgets.
But again, did not hone in onthe DSC world.
At the time, all I knew wasscrappy mentality.
How do I sell out, you know,footwear drops in minutes with
no dollars in ad spend?
(02:35):
Did that loved it.
And then my whole life changed.
I went, you know, and decided towork with small businesses and
do some things.
And I looked at a, I needed ajob and I looked at this
LinkedIn ad for paid search.
And I was like, Oh, they'repaying people to search things.
It's like, I could do that.
(02:56):
And I ended up landing a job ata local agency in Los Angeles as
just like the grunt.
Entry level paid social expert,quote unquote expert.
But I got obsessed and again,this is that pursuit.
And through that pursuit, Iended up becoming the director
of that entire department wasable to increase their book of
(03:17):
business by 200 percent within avery short period of time.
And then iOS 14 happened.
Which is what demolished ourindustry in terms of tracking
and attribution, which we'll gointo a little bit later.
But I lost almost 40 percent ofmy book of business.
And my CEO looked at me, he'slike, what are you going to do
to fix this?
So by strike of luck and chanceand perfect timing, I actually
(03:40):
started speaking out loud abouthow to pivot.
And that's where I shared a lotof stages with Jesse, where I
didn't necessarily get to meetyou, but we were on similar
stages and I was just testingout loud, Andrew, Android versus
Apple.
And then discover somethingbeautiful called first party
data.
And again, obsessive felt likethis is the answer.
I know it is.
However, I don't love what's onthe market currently.
(04:02):
I want to make something that Iknow is right for my team.
And that's where ad beacon wasborn.
So I had two co founders andmyself, and I try to be the
visionary with my co founders ofwhat it's going to become.
And we celebrated a two yearanniversary in August of 2024,
and we are thriving.
I'm so happy.
And.
This is where my life is today.
Jessie Healy (04:24):
Amazing.
What a story.
So from model to marketer todigital marketer and now to like
SAS entrepreneur, I love it.
What a journey.
And like, I'm sure every part ofthat journey, you've learned so
much, which I'm sure you cantalk to us about today.
But I always think like varietyreally does like build us as
entrepreneurs and allows us to.
(04:45):
You know, be better at what wedo.
I always my waitressing job, Ithink, contributed to my great
customer service.
So
Phoenix Ha (04:51):
yeah,
Jessie Healy (04:52):
definitely.
Okay.
So tell us then.
Like, imagine you are explainingthis to someone who's pretty new
in the space to attribution.
They might have some questionsaround, should I be spending my
money on Google or Facebook orwhat's happening here?
I don't really like Googleanalytics isn't really telling
me much of a story.
Like what is attribution?
(05:14):
What does it do and how does itwork?
Phoenix Ha (05:17):
great questions.
Okay.
And I love, I wouldn't saydumbing it down.
I say simplifying very complexconcepts.
I think that's really what itcomes down to.
So attribution in the simplestform is just basically who, who
being what platform meta GooglePinterest gets credit for a
sale.
Within a given amount of time.
So there's two aspects, like whogets credit and within what span
(05:39):
of time.
So a great example of that is anattribution window, right?
These are big words, but it justmeans who gets credit within a
window of time of, let's justsay seven days.
And you're like, okay, withinseven days, who gets the credit?
The secondary component of thatis, well, how much credit?
And there are different types ofmodels and different types of
(06:00):
concepts, which I'll go through.
And then they're all very, veryeasy to understand if they're
simplified.
So, for example, first clickattribution is just dumbed down
to how do people find you?
So what is their firstinteraction via click, a
tangible click?
And that's usually theintroduction to the brand.
Last click attribution, and whatwas the click right before they
(06:21):
bought?
So what platform did they clickon in terms of an ad right
before they bought or it couldbe organic.
So that's last clickattribution.
So first click is how they findyou.
Last click is how they convertfrom you.
And then there's other conceptslike linear of giving equal
credit to every single touchpoint, right?
So if there's four clicks, fourdifferent channels, each one
(06:41):
gets 25 percent credit.
And then there's other ones andit gets way more complex.
And there's always been thisdebate going back and forth of
which one to use and when to useit.
And my, my stance has alwaysbeen.
Every media buyer is different.
That's why brains are gorgeous.
I'm going to give you very cleandata and let you decide.
So that I think is the simplestform.
(07:02):
And then there's one last layerto attribution.
And it's two forms.
One is view attribution andclick attribution.
So view just means if I saw anad within a given amount of
time, that platform gets credit.
And click attribution is if theyclicked on my ad within a
certain amount of time, it getscredit.
(07:22):
My personal stance is I don'tlook at view attribution
personally, because.
As much as I understand view issuch a important metric, there
is a difference between viewmetrics and view attribution.
View metrics are things like,you know, someone viewing your
ad for 25, 50, you know, 100percent of the time if it's a
video or there's certain thingsthere.
(07:45):
However, view attribution says,Let's just say meta gets the
credit.
And again, what is a view?
Is it my grandmother scrollingthrough an ad fumbling, thinking
things through, or is it acertain amount of time?
So that proprietary blend ofview metrics that deems it to be
a view attribution, I would saycredit.
(08:05):
I don't know what that isbecause I don't know what that
is.
I don't trust it and I can't useit.
So I hope that was clarified.
We've got what attribution isand then the different types of
attribution and the differenttypes of attribution models.
Jessie Healy (08:18):
got it.
So let's talk about just to likebreak it down even further, like
how the different platforms.
Attribute to themselves.
And then like how a platformlike Google analytics would
attribute.
So if I understand correctly,Facebook attributes only for
seven days and by default, they,they attribute one day of view,
(08:38):
like viewed ads and seven daysof click, but you can change it
yourself if you want to, butthat only gonna, you're only
going to get credit for the saleand Facebook ads manager.
If the person converts withinseven days, is that still the
case?
Phoenix Ha (08:51):
You can still break it out to 28 day.
I think they just opened it up.
So like back in the day beforeiOS 14, the default was actually
28 day click seven day view.
So it was much bigger.
So think about like a companythat sells one of my clients
sells golf launch monitors orsimulators.
I always call it the Jay Z'sunless you're Jay Z and have Jay
(09:12):
Z money.
You're not going to buy thatwithin a day of looking at an
ad.
It's going to take some time.
So You know, the 28 day clickseven day view really helped
that understanding that journeynow that it's been cut down
defaulted to seven day click oneday view.
right.
It's, it's limited.
You can open it up, but again,it's still kind of a hazy world.
Jessie Healy (09:33):
And you have to open it up and like find it.
It's not, and the algorithm'snot taking into account the 28
days.
It's just taking into accountthe seven.
So yeah, like, unless you arelike a fast moving product where
people make a pretty impulsedecision, chances are a good
chunk of your sales are going tohappen outside of the seven day
window from click.
And therefore we're not going toknow that Facebook is the reason
(09:57):
or Mesa is the reason why thatsale happened.
Yeah.
But Google, on the other hand is28 day, right?
By default.
I
Phoenix Ha (10:04):
Yeah.
It's 28.
So there's a, there's a lot offlaws with both Google and meta,
et cetera.
And it's actually not theirfault.
So let's like take it back toiOS 14.
So what is iOS 14?
It was that pop up on an Appledevice that said, do you to be
tracked?
You're asking to be tracked and99 percent of everybody is
going, heck no, I don't want tobe tracked.
(10:24):
You know, screw the government.
I don't want it yet.
Totally get it.
Totally get it.
However, what it really did isit handcuffed the ability for
advertisers to identify whopeople are.
Even the, the ability that wehad was already limited, but
even far more limited.
It delayed data and also justput a lot of boundaries as to
(10:45):
what Meta could share andcouldn't share a track and
couldn't track.
And this impacted a lot.
So again, to your point of likeseven days is a very short
amount of time.
That's scary.
Google, however, the way thatGoogle tracks, very similar to
meta.
The thing is, is that Google isalso kind of going through its
own iOS right now with Googleanalytics for being an
(11:07):
interesting product.
A lot of users are not happywith a firm example of that.
You look like you're laughing.
You might be one of those
Jessie Healy (11:15):
just didn't, didn't want to have to learn a
whole new package for a star.
Like, and I think a lot ofmarketers, we, we learned it
when we were like younger and wehad time and now I don't have
time to learn a whole new thing.
Like it's a lot.
Phoenix Ha (11:26):
we all had it on our linkedin like google analytics
certified, right?
Like I don't even it's justagain again back to a standpoint
of a platform You want people touse it not learn how to use your
platform and then use it that'sjust like another step in the
process, but The biggest issue Ihad actually with it is that,
you know, Google AnalyticsUniversal doesn't translate over
(11:48):
to Google Analytics 4.
So all the data you hadpreviously does not go hand in
hand.
Like, you can't do a comparisonthat's clean unless you, you
completely extrapolated thatdata, put it with the new
formulas with Google Analytics4.
Another thing that's reallyimportant for us to understand
is that these platforms onlycare about themselves.
(12:08):
Google Analytics 4 And that'slike so important that we need
to understand is I think for solong, we saw great numbers in
Google and Meta and we're like,hell yeah, like this is great,
but we never took a extreme lookback to our Shopify WooCommerce
or BigCommerce stores orwhatever you're on.
And went, is this true?
When you see your businessthriving, you obviously see a
(12:31):
correlation.
It might be not, might not be acomplete picture, but you see a
correlation of going up on metaand up on Google.
And then you see your Shopifystory going up.
Why are you complaining?
When iOS 14 happened, youstarted to see the veil back and
it was way scarier than wethought.
So let me take it back for asecond.
(12:51):
Google favors.
Google.
It's in the name.
Meta favors meta.
It's in the name.
So, when you use these types ofplatforms to tell you how much
money they made you, you justhave to take that into account.
Jessie Healy (13:04):
Totally.
And this is the thing, right?
I've, I've said it a milliontimes to brands I work with,
like, We can only trust Googleanalytics as far as we can trust
Google.
And, you know, Google's goal,their absolute obligation to
their shareholders is to makemore money.
And they'll make more money ifthey, if they make our campaigns
look good.
(13:25):
So is Google going to be themost neutral party to use, to
tell us which platform meta orGoogle who are sworn enemies of
each other works best?
No, it's absolutely not.
And like the, the way that, thatthe way they're like, Designing
the way that data is kind ofcrunched in the back end.
Like we're not, we're not datascientists able to see that
(13:46):
whole algorithm and how thatworks.
So I'm not saying that they areblatantly like making it.
But it's definitely going to bemaking some decisions that make
generally make Google appearbetter.
And then Google has this otherthing that I'm on my soapbox
now.
But Google is more of a bottomof funnel channel generally.
I mean, they're trying to behigher funnel with like YouTube
(14:06):
and other platforms like that.
But generally like search,someone is already searching for
the brand or they already knowthey need the product.
They're going to convert fairlyhigh at the bottom of the
funnel, but oftentimes theywon't even get there.
If you haven't done something atthe top, which generally happens
on meta or tech talk or YouTubesometimes as well.
So bottom of funnel channelsalways look like they perform
(14:26):
better.
So brands will always come to meand go, it'd be like, Google
performs way better than meta.
And I'm like, try turning metaoff and then come back to me and
see what you're going to say.
So, yeah, I think the, theanswer is we need a platform.
That's neutral to the two orneutral to all the channels.
That's not like funded for free.
Like you get it for free fromGoogle.
That should tell you something.
(14:47):
Right.
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (14:50):
mass adoption over a product that they want you to
use more of.
And, again, let's Go back to theconcept of a funnel in
marketing.
It's a top of funnels, peoplewho've never heard of you
before.
Then you've got middle offunnel, which is retargeting,
you know, people who have heardof you, but haven't yet
converted.
And then the true bottom offunnel is people who have
converted, but you know, youwant to re engage with them.
(15:10):
And what is the most commonmistake people make is that they
see great results at middle offunnel, the bottom of funnels.
So they put all of their spendthere, but they forget that
they're squeezing out.
The very small amount of peoplethat know about them and they're
no longer bringing in morepeople and to your point of like
bottom of funnel channels likeGoogle, that's very common.
(15:30):
So everything looks great therebecause you're saying they're
already looking for thatproduct.
It's going to happen, you know,with meta, it's different.
It's like people might not needthat product, but you're showing
it to them.
They're like, Oh, wow, this is adiscovery channel.
If you hear my dog drinkingwater, she's a loud yeah, no,
and we, I really, you know,taking it back again, I was a
(15:53):
meta paid media strategist.
So like away from ad beacon, Ineeded a solution.
And when I looked at meta, Ijust didn't feel right telling
my client, like, let's just say,Jesse, you're my client.
I'm like, congratulations, youmade 50, 000.
It says that in meta.
And then I go into your Shopifystore.
It's like, you made 25, 000.
And I'm like, I cannot say this.
(16:13):
There is an attribution modelthat we have figured out that is
as close to meta as possible.
And there's two things Iunveiled during this iOS 14 time
that was really, really scary.
The first one is this concept offull impact model.
And I talked about linear, firstclick, last click.
Full impact is basically everysingle click in the journey gets
(16:35):
100 percent credit.
So if you think about it likethis, if there were four clicks
in a journey and a hundreddollars sale and we used full
impact and all four clicks weremeta, then it would report$400
and four orders.
But that's not true.
It was one order,$400, but wegave every click a hundred
percent credit.
'cause we wanted to look at theimpact of every single campaign
(16:55):
ad set and ad.
So when I switched over to fullimpact in our platform, it got
closer to the meta numbers.
There's also a secondarycomponent.
That's scary.
And I started to look through alot of our clients because I did
a beta test of 40 clients beforewe even launched this.
And I was looking through and Isaw that there was a
hyperinflation between a 55 to70 percent lean range of the
(17:19):
revenue that was Yeah.
So one of the things to rememberis that no matter for how many
people are watching video get 30percent of what you're watching
in the data, it's actually whoyou actually saw at one point,
whatever.
And so then you're going to setup a 55 to 70 percent of the
revenue you're saying is justfrom that, but then the rest was
click.
That's a problem.
And the problem with that is Ican't prove the view side.
(17:42):
I can only potentially prove theclick side.
So now you're at the mercy of aplatform.
Jessie Healy (17:49):
that's definitely true in some accounts.
It's not true in all accounts.
And that's why like every, youknow, every business, every
account is different.
Like we definitely see.
I've noticed that for likebeauty brands that have a lot of
like organic reach andengagement, they'll get like so
many views through conversions,because I think people are just
like seeing the ad flash upbefore they buy, but they were
going to buy it anyway becauseof like the founder's content.
(18:11):
Whereas like in other, otherareas where maybe they don't
have as strong of a socialprofile or they just just for
whatever reason, they're like,their business is different.
We won't see as many.
Like view through conversionsbeing kind of like taking all
the credit.
So it's something to look for,isn't it?
Like, regardless of whether youuse an attribution platform,
it's a, it's a metric you shouldalways be looking at is like
(18:33):
view through conversions versus.
Click through conversions andthen make a decision as to where
this optimized for one or theother.
So yeah,
Phoenix Ha (18:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you get to understand thebuying behavior and you have to
make the decision as a businessowner of which one you feel more
comfortable with, like to your,and again, the way I look at
things is if I know it's abeauty brand and first click is
really strong on meta, then Iknow for a fact that people are
finding out, but they'reprobably be terrible last click
because they probably come back.
Through Google or, you know,organic search and then the
(19:02):
organic channels have a lot ofattribution towards it because
they continuously re engage withthe community aspect.
It really depends on yourbusiness.
So you, I think you nail righton the head.
Jessie Healy (19:12):
yeah, exactly.
And it's like, no, your numbersknow where to look for these
things and like, and have a lookat those numbers on a regular
basis.
Totally.
Okay, cool.
So attribution.
In a general, in a generalsense, we now understand it's
like having a kind of neutralsystem in the middle that allows
you to like, see the true storyand you can decide whether you
(19:32):
want to attribute the firstclick, the last click, give
everyone credit, whatever youdecide is up to you as a
business and will depend on likewhat you're trying to kind of
do.
So tell us about, tell us aboutad beacon and how ad beacon fits
into that and like, what'sdifferent about your tool versus
other tools that are out there.
Right.
Phoenix Ha (19:51):
Yeah, easy.
You know, I built this tool assomething I needed selfishly.
For my team, let's be completelyhonest.
I have a different perspective.
I'm a media buyer.
So, you know, the first thing isI didn't build this for brand
owners.
I built this for the tacticians,for the agency teams, for the
media buyers.
Why?
Because they're the ones usingthese tools to scale your
(20:12):
brands.
And often we were thrown toolsthat just, Were given to us and
we had just deal with it.
It was a good, but not a great.
And I wanted to build a greatfor the team.
So that was the firstdifference.
And I knew what we needed.
So attribution is just one partof the whole picture.
AdBeacon is, understands thatattribution is just the
foundation.
(20:32):
Now, what do we do with it?
So, you know, that trickles allthe way over to what makes us
different.
Well, now I know exactly whatproducts people are buying all
the way down to the ad level.
and then I can optimize mylanding pages to have higher
conversion rates.
I want to know little thingslike that are just like the aha
moment.
when we designed this platform,we really thought about like,
(20:53):
okay, what's next?
It's a read and react format.
We're reading the data now.
What?
So.
We have a full product journeythat tells you a complete upsell
flow.
So I don't have to dig throughthe data nonstop to figure out
if someone buys this product,they're most likely to buy this
and this next.
And then we ask ourselves,what's the lifetime value of
that product?
And that's where you take ajunior media buyer into a senior
(21:14):
media buyer, where they're nowasking better questions to then
help Brand scale.
So that's just a completelydifferent take that we had.
Now, when it comes to, I'll becompletely frank with you when
it comes to tracking.
We're no different thaneverybody else.
Everyone has the same way oftracking.
We have a pixel Okay, there's,and the margin of error is
(21:36):
probably going to be relativelythe same.
Now it's what you do with thatdata and it's clean and it's
easy to understand that takesyou to the next level.
So I would say that's, that's adbeacon and where we are.
Jessie Healy (21:47):
Interesting.
Yeah.
So like when we, and I guessyou're solving one of those
frustrations that you have as amedia buyer, when you're looking
at ads manager and you don'tknow what product people bought
and whether they're a newcustomer or not as well, right,
like And Google analyticsdoesn't tell you either what
product people bought.
I don't, as far as I know, Ihaven't found a way to do that.
And it definitely doesn't tellyou if someone was a net new
(22:07):
customer to the business.
It tells them, it tells you howmany new users you've got within
a time period, but not whethersomeone came and bought for the
first time or the 20th time.
So yeah, those are two thingsthat are super super useful to
have in a tool.
So, okay.
So can you walk us through likean example of a client of yours
and how it.
(22:29):
How a tool like AdBeacon canactually make them make more
money.
Like, how does that
Phoenix Ha (22:34):
Oh yeah.
I'll use a, a brand calledBrixton, Brixton Apparel.
Love them.
So I was their media buyer.
And the first problem that I hadwas, I'll use this use case as
my favorite case study is wewere trying to figure out, okay
You know, during Black Friday,Cyber Monday, what ads do best?
And again, I don't like to workoff data that I can't prove.
(22:56):
It's literally what it comesdown to.
So, often what, and this isgreat for you, Jesse, with the
creative side, is, We wouldoften get the question from
their team.
What types of creatives do weneed to do?
Do we need to do more video?
Do we do more stills, et cetera?
But because we had first partydata and we had proof behind
every dollar, we were able toshow them in ad beacon, which
(23:17):
which media types are likezoomed in macro shots of the
apparel off body did far betterin terms of revenue than on body
with a model.
Huge.
We were also able to tell themthat one female model drove far
more revenue than a differentfemale model.
However, the other female modeldrove far more clicks.
Jessie Healy (23:37):
Wow.
Phoenix Ha (23:38):
Interesting.
So what we don't realize iscommercial versus direct to
consumer can be very different.
So that's just one thing.
Then we were able to do stand bynew customers versus returning
customers and what creativedrove far more new customers
versus returning.
And then my second, so that waseasy, low hanging fruit.
So during black Friday, cyberMonday, they basically turned
off all on body and just reallypushed into their flannels of
(24:01):
zoomed in macro shots andprinted money.
It was like you, you could, itwas just un, it was ridiculous
ROAS, ridiculous numbers andrevenue.
And I was so proud of that.
The second portion that Ithought was a next step was we
had a collaboration with a localartist and they had a, like a
really bright red sweater and,you know, the brand awareness is
(24:25):
usually why you would do acollaboration.
You bring in new eyes.
So we drove people to thelanding page of that red
sweater.
Pretty simple.
And the CEO calls me at Brixtonand was like, Turn off this ad.
Turn it off right now.
It's not doing anything.
And I'm like, I'm not going todo that.
It's printing money.
And he's like, what do you mean?
And I'm like, it's, it literallyis one of our best performing
(24:45):
ads.
I'm not going to turn this off.
And he went, turn it off becausewe're not selling any of those
units.
And I had to have thatconversation.
Well, well, the thing aboutdirect to consumer is our job is
to drive traffic, qualifiedtraffic.
They might buy other thingscause they can browse the site
by headwear or whatever.
(25:05):
They might not buy that product,but that drove them to the site.
And he goes, well, what productsdid they buy?
And I couldn't answer thatquestion and that really
frustrated me.
So we fixed it and now we knew.
So what happened?
We found out that people wereactually buying headwear,
snapbacks.
So what do we do?
We optimize the landing page toshowcase that sweater.
But we had three snapbacks.
Then we had a AOV play, a bundleplay, and we drove massive sell
(25:29):
through.
So those are just little thingswe did.
Yeah.
Jessie Healy (25:32):
Yeah.
It's like taking the blindfoldoff, isn't it?
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And that whole thing of like,This, the ad that brings people
in isn't necessarily the ad thatthe product that people buy is
so true.
When I worked at Etsy, Iremember we would have, I think
without shopping ads, it wassomething like 90 percent of the
time people didn't buy theproducts that came in through
(25:54):
the shopping ad to look atbecause they then landed on Etsy
and found a whole bunch of otherstuff that suited their needs
and they would buy.
So it's about like identifyingwhat's the ad unit that's going
to bring in the people thatactually end up buying.
And then deeper than that.
Like what did they buy?
And therefore, like, what shouldwe show them when they get
there?
And then deeper than that, likewhich units will bring people in
(26:14):
who have never like bought fromthe brand before, who are worth
more to you, right?
Because you can convert yourexisting customers.
I mean, you should be throughemail, through social, et
cetera, but bringing in net newcustomers is how business will
truly be able to grow.
So understanding that level.
It's really, really important.
That's awesome.
So Brixton, are they, I have toask, are they from Brixton in
(26:35):
London?
Cause I used to live there, butI don't think they are
Phoenix Ha (26:38):
No, they're a San Diego based brand, but I know
that they take lineage fromthat.
Yeah, they're, they're crazy.
So they, they're a music drivenbrand, but then they kind of
landed themselves in surf andskate as well.
And they're very well known fortheir headwear.
So like,
Jessie Healy (26:56):
I've seen their caps hats.
Yeah, definitely.
Phoenix Ha (26:58):
yeah, caps like Peaky They have that and then
they have cowboy hats andeverything.
And I grew up looking at thisbrand.
So it was kind of easy to mediabuy for them, but really really
fun
Jessie Healy (27:08):
Yeah.
So how are you kind of likesetting up a test like that, or
like, how are you designing yourcreative testing framework in
order to harness these?
Kind of insights.
Like, are you saying like in anideal world, would you have set
up like on body versus like,well, I think you said it was
(27:29):
like on body versus model shotsor something like that.
So are you like designing a testwhere you have these diverse
different elements in there andyou're purposely kind of putting
budget against them in order tolike answer a question?
Phoenix Ha (27:42):
V1, V2.
So let's go back to liketraditional way of, of AB
testing creative is you would goin there and I believe that you
have to have a control.
The control would be actuallymultiple aspects would be the
headline and the copy thatshouldn't change.
The only thing that shouldchange is the creative and it
should be an image or if it's avideo, it's a video, right?
So it can't be, you know, a testa is an image and test B is a
(28:06):
video and there's multiplecomponents to So it would be
version one would be same copy,same headline, but the image
showcases.
Let's just say a flannel upclose commercial shot zoomed in
with the branding.
Not on a model.
And the second V2 would be thesame headline, same copy, but it
would be a lifestyle shot on themodel, right?
(28:30):
Of the same flannel.
I would make sure that we try toget relative same spend against
AB and then see which performsbetter.
And we did this across multipleflannels, multiple products.
And we saw a clear winnerbecause what we do in our
platform is we take an imagehash.
So the idea is multiple mad ormedia buyers.
(28:50):
What they do is they take one adand then they duplicate it like
15 times across the entire adaccount.
It could live in multipledifferent audiences.
What we do is we pull the imagehash and say, how is that
individual creative doing?
So then we say, okay, theremight be multiple forms of this
different headlines, differentcopy, but how is this specific
(29:11):
image performing and because ofthat we were able to deduce and
through deductive reasoning,realize, wow, okay, this is
what's working and then weleaned into it during Black
Friday, Cyber Monday and sawsuch great
Jessie Healy (29:22):
Amazing.
Yeah.
So that's, that's the otherunlock, isn't it?
Because if you have a fairlycomplex account with like
multiple like audiences thatyou're testing or like regions
or whatever, you're not going tohave the rolled up information
about that one particular ad.
Yeah.
And you won't then be able tosay and does it, does the system
allow you to say like, whetherthis, you know, Worked at top of
(29:44):
funnel versus bottom of funnel,like, because sometimes you'll
be like, these are our bestperforming ads.
Oh, those are just all ourretargeting ads.
Phoenix Ha (29:51):
Yeah.
So what it does, it's cool.
You get to see it overview, likein a table format, like a nerd.
I love it.
And then you can actually clickon the individual creative and
it'll show you every singlecampaign ad set and add that
this creative lives So you cansee, and then spend relative to
it.
And then you can actually provethat.
Every single person who boughtfrom these ads.
So it, it really gets granular.
(30:13):
My personal favorite recently istwo things we're able to do.
One is tagging.
So to your point of like, if youhave a bunch of ads and let's
just say this isn't a specificcategory of headwear, you just
want to know how headwear adsare doing.
You can tag certain creative,say headwear, and then do a
comparison report against maybebottoms.
And that's separate tags.
You can see that.
(30:34):
Another thing I'm really stokedon is we're looking right now at
carousel versus image versusvideo.
It's a full roll up that tellsyou how many ads you have of
that format, how much you'vespent against each of those
formats, and how much revenue inall those metrics, and then you
can decide with your creativeteam which one you need to start
doubling
Jessie Healy (30:53):
Right.
Okay.
So you can kind of splice anddice the data by creative unit,
I presume via like copy orheadline as well via like what
format you're looking at, whatpart of the funnel it's in.
Yeah, awesome.
That sounds really cool.
So I've had a demo of it myselfand it looks like it's, you've
sort of mirrored a little bitthe the interface of like
(31:15):
Facebook ads or Meta adsmanager.
Cause you've kind of, come at itas a media buyer, right?
Yeah.
Cool.
Phoenix Ha (31:22):
It's like a, I wanted, I wanted my team.
So as a leader of, of the team,what is the hardest thing to do?
Introduce another damn tool.
Sorry if I curse, but like this,this is one of those things
where it's like, I never wantedanother tool.
So let me just reduce thefriction points.
So we purposely had it looklike, you know, the Facebook ads
(31:45):
manager.
We say it's inspiration of, sothen you can go in and work
within five minutes.
We should make your life easier,not harder.
So that, that was a big reasonfor that
Jessie Healy (31:53):
That's awesome.
So.
Taking a step back, like I workwith early stage brands and then
I work with some bigger kind ofeight and nine figure brands as
well.
So I work kind of across thespectrum at what stage do you
think attribution an attributiontool like this?
Because there is a cost to itversus like using just the
platform data or GoogleAnalytics.
At what stage do you think itbecomes?
(32:15):
ROI positive, I guess, to investin an attribution tool.
Phoenix Ha (32:20):
Yeah.
So it always starts withmargins.
I start there.
You know, we purposely pricedourselves again, like not more
than half a percent of yourmonthly revenue.
The way that we looked at thatpricing was very strategic.
However, again, even so youmight be really slim with your
margins and that's still toomuch.
So first of all, margins wise,make sure that you can afford
(32:41):
this type of Second of all iswhat I look at as usually 50,
000, 20 to 50, 000 in spend.
Across all channels is the righttime in my opinion to start
looking at this because if it'sjust one channel Yes, we will be
helpful But it's always great tosee the full picture and then
(33:01):
the way that I look at it, tooIs unless you are able to dive
into this platform like an adbeacon It's really not going to
help you, which is why I reallytargeted towards agencies and
media buyers and no offense tobrand owners.
If you're in a stage whereyou're doing all the media
buying and you're also doing theshipping and you're also talking
to everybody in terms of, of allthe vendors, et cetera, it's
(33:24):
almost impossible to fullyutilize a platform like AdBeacon
to its extent to be able toscale.
It's advanced.
So I always say, you know, it's,it's more so who's doing your
media buying than where you'reat.
But again, margins is
Jessie Healy (33:39):
Yeah.
So you're, so ideally if you'rehearing this and it sounds
interesting and you haven't gotattribution set up yet, could be
something where you talk to youragency about them kind of
adopting AdBeacon, or if you'redoing media buying in house and
you have like an expert mediabuyer who's running your ads for
you, they're going to be superexcited to work with a tool like
this.
And I mean, there's lots ofother kind of like tools that do
(34:01):
different things out there onthe marketplace.
Like, what do you think makes.
different to say your triplewhale, your North beam, or even
ones like alivar or blood outthat do a little bit different.
They're kind of like sendingdata back into the platforms.
What are the key differences?
Phoenix Ha (34:18):
I would say we're a no BS platform to be extremely
blunt.
And what I mean by that is weare a click attribution only
platform.
We actually do not report onview attribution.
I made that pretty clear earlyon.
The second thing is we don'thave any proprietary or black
box attribution models and mostcompanies want and need that to
(34:39):
be, you know, kind of the coolmarketing play.
We don't do that.
We sterilize the data completelyand that is really to put it
back in your hands.
And the last part is just thementality and the way we
designed it.
We have a very different goal.
Our goal is to be a tool formedia buyers.
Our goal is not to have brandsswipe their credit cards.
So for me, I listened to themedia buyers.
(35:00):
This is a community drivenplatform.
It's a completely differenttake, and it's not a knock on
any other platform, but you haveto understand that to the back
to the first question is.
If you are a smaller brand thathas invested in an agency to
help grow you, AdBeacon is onlygoing to make it 10 times
better.
It's just in the hands ofsomeone who's qualified that's
(35:20):
able to utilize it.
Jessie Healy (35:21):
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (35:22):
Versus you going to my competitor and you have to
incur that cost yourself, andyou're feeling the weight of
both an agency's price point,also another tool, and then all
the other tools.
So, I would say that's the big,big component
Jessie Healy (35:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I would say to add to like,sorry, back to the earlier
question.
It just struck me that like thetime when you need attribution
beyond, like, if you're at thatspin level of like 20 K plus, if
you're maybe not quite at thatspin level, but you're lying
awake, asking yourself questionsabout, you don't know whether
it's Google or whether it'smeta, that's like the lever to
(35:56):
pull.
And you don't know how to answerthat question.
And you don't have like, A cleanview of like, are people
discovering me through Google orthrough meta or through tick
tock or whatever else you're at,you know, you might be doing
stuff with affiliates, SEO, etcetera.
If those questions are holdingyou back and meaning that you
can't move forward and makeconfidence spend decisions, and
you're just sort of lost in asea of contradictory data, that
(36:18):
probably a good point when youneed to look at exploring some
kind of attribution tool,whether it's ad beacon or any of
the others that I mentioned.
And then So, yeah, I justthought that would kind of add
to the conversation.
Okay.
Awesome.
Well it's been a great chat.
Is there anything else you wantto share with the audience
before we go?
Any yeah, any insights about theindustry?
What's happening at the moment?
(36:38):
Any advice for Black Friday?
Phoenix Ha (36:41):
Yeah, I mean, so first and foremost, I always
like to leave a nugget.
I'm seeing across a lot ofaccounts, carousels, image, like
still image carousel ads arewrecking house right I always
believe like creating silence inthe noisy of noise is the way
that you impact.
So what was something thateveryone was preaching so many
years?
It's like video, video, video.
And because you've seen so muchvideo, now you're seeing an
(37:04):
image.
It just stops you in yourtracks.
Founder led, founder ledcreative is killing it in terms
of, I wouldn't say even UGC, butit's like a splice and dice of a
video.
But almost UGC esque, where it'sjust an iPhone telling the story
of your brand because peoplewant to invest in brands now and
who they are and they don't wantthis.
(37:25):
Kind of like a behind the veiltype of vibe.
They want to know.
They want to be invested.
And I think the only thing toois like, if you're going into
Black Friday, Cyber Monday, myonly suggestion is to have a
plan and then have a backupplan.
Jessie Healy (37:38):
Yeah.
Phoenix Ha (37:39):
You never know what's going to happen, so be
prepared to react And be beagile.
Jessie Healy (37:44):
a backup ad account too, it's not a bad
Phoenix Ha (37:46):
Yes, please.
Please, please.
Actually, Brixton, perfectexample, needed a back up ad
account right before BlackFriday Cyber Monday a few years
ago.
We got hacked, and if it wasn'tfor that back up ad account, we
would not, you know, been ableto recover.
So, I wish you guys the best of
Jessie Healy (38:01):
in my agency, we had, we used to onboard a new
client and have them set up abackup account the day we
onboarded them, because we wereso spooked by like times when
clients had accounts that gotshut down and we'd got the
blame.
So we were like, if you've got abackup ad account, we told you
this might happen.
So, yeah.
So quick question on thecarousel, cause I'm always
curious.
So.
You're talking like manualcarousels.
(38:22):
We're not talking like catalogads that pull the catalog, like
selecting individual productsand putting them into the
carousel telling the story.
Interesting.
And
Phoenix Ha (38:32):
right?
I'm doing video.
I'm doing a UGC carousel rightnow as a test because I just for
everyone to know, like, yeah, Irun a platform, but I also like
to still media by to keep myselfstill in the game.
Right?
So we are testing UGC carouselvideo.
So video carousel.
We're also we did a lot of stillimagery carousel.
(38:53):
We just saw the algorithm justreally lean towards that.
Spending towards carousel, butthen it was, it was the best,
you know, generating in terms ofperformance.
But then yeah, still imagerytalent manual, of course,
catalog this while DPA as well,you know, like always has
Jessie Healy (39:10):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
And yeah, founder ads.
I could see that being, Iremember founder ads popping off
during the pandemic becausepeople were like.
I want to buy from people.
I want to support real brands.
This is a tough time.
And I think now with theeconomic situation, it's
probably the same thing.
If I'm going to buy something, Iwant to buy something that helps
someone, a nice real person, nota corporation.
(39:30):
So lean into that.
I would say, yeah, I love that.
Awesome.
So where can people follow you?
Find your find your business,let us know, and I'll put it all
in the show notes.
Awesome.
Phoenix Ha (39:41):
Yeah.
I mean, AdBeacon.
com easy, easy, easy.
But for me specifically, it'sunderscore.
Phoenix ha on Twitter.
You can find me on Tik Tok.
That's actually a live casestudy for anyone who thinks this
is fun.
Went viral multiple times duringthe pandemic.
And it was all actually just atest on different hooks sold out
multiple products within amatter of days.
(40:02):
So please check that out.
And then you know, Instagram, ifyou want to know me personally,
that's where like you see mydogs and my husband and my not
so much marketing, but yeah,feel free to ask any questions.
I'm here to help.
Jessie Healy (40:14):
to have you on.
Thanks again.
Phoenix Ha (40:17):
Thanks for having me.
Jessie Healy (40:20):
Thanks so much for joining us here on the e
commerce impact podcast.
If I can ask you one favor, canyou please make sure you
subscribe?
And if you can leave us areview, it helps us have a much
bigger impact with what we'retrying to do here at the e
commerce impact podcast.
Now, if you're ready to takeyour e com store to the next
level, then go to www.
ecommerceimpactpodcast.
com and click on the button tobook a strategy call with me and
(40:41):
my team.
We offer a free order of youradvertising and a custom growth
plan.
So you really have nothing tolose by getting in touch and
jumping on a call with us.
See you soon and watch out forthe next episode in two weeks
time.
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