March 1, 2023 • 30 mins
Dr. Dan Sutter, of the Manuel Johnson Center for Political Economy, hosts EconVersations, a program that explores the role of free markets in promoting prosperity through conversations with Manuel Johnson Center faculty and guests. In this episode, Dr. Sutter interviews Lawrence Reed of the Foundation for Economic Education as they discuss Liberating Humanity from Slavery
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(00:00):
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The opinionsexpressed on this program
representthe viewpoints of individual
authors or contributorsand do not necessarily reflect
those of Troy University.
This is E Conversations,
a joint program, TroyTurgeon Vision and Emmanuel H.
Johnson Centerfor Political Economy.
(00:44):
Now here's your host, Dr.
Danso.
Hello and welcome to youConversations.
I'm your host, Dr.
Dan Sutter of the Johnson Center
for Political Economyat Troy University.
Hulu recentlydebuted a television series
based on the New York Times
1619 project, which suggestedthat Colonial Virginia
(01:04):
in 1619 was where slavery beganin the Americas.
Slavery was a horrible evilin human society,
but it has been widely examinedby historians,
and the historical realityis that slavery
did not begin in the Americassome 400 years ago.
The sad truth is that slaverywas a part of human society
for a very long time,
and in societiesacross the globe, it's only been
(01:26):
in the past 200 years orso that slavery was eradicated.
And it was also during that time
that standards of livinghave taken off.
And what economic historianDeirdre McCloskey refers to
as the great enrichment.
What lessons does the historyof slavery offer for today?
Joining me on the conversationsto discuss this is economic
historian Laurence Reed.
(01:47):
Mr. Reed served as the presidentof the Foundation for
of Action for Economic Educationfor many years,
an outstanding organization
dedicated to educating peopleabout how a market
economy operates.
And it's one
that the Johnson Centerhas partnered
with on several projectsover the years.
Prior to joining Fee,
Larry was a professorof economics
at Northwood Universityin Michigan
(02:09):
and president
of the American Centerfor Public Policy,
which is also locatedin Michigan.
Welcome back to the show, Larry.
Hey, thank youfor having me, Dan.
I appreciate it very much.
Well,you've written several pieces
for for a fee recentlyand talk about some of the
this history of slavery.
And, you know, we're goingto get into some of that.
But I think we were before
(02:29):
we get into some of the details,I think I want to touch on.
Why why is it so important thatthat we have this
perspective on
slavery in human
history and not just slaveryin the United States?
Slavery,Dan, is a very unfortunate
a blot on the human experience,but it is
(02:50):
by no meansunique to this country.
And so those who seem to havean agenda sometimes to
attack America oftendon't want you to know.
Or they neglect to mention
that slavery is an ageold institution
that if America is exceptional
on this matter at all,it may be for what we did
(03:11):
to get rid of it, but notexceptional because we had it.
It goes back to ancient times.
Most of the people, in fact,who have ever lived
on this planethave either been slaves
or lived as near slavesor near serfs
in constant subjection towhoever happened to be in power.
(03:35):
So it's a common experience.
But although it can never beexcused or justified,
it is by no meansexceptional to this country.
And so let's start here.
In 1619,it turns out actually slavery,
as imposed by Europeans, wasalready existing in the Americas
because the Spanish had gottento have gotten established
(03:56):
in the Americasa little bit before that.
And and they had brought slaverywith them, haven't they?
That's right.
The Spanish brought slavesnearly a century
before the 1619 experienceat Jamestown.
And so they brought slavesto multiple places
in the Americasalmost a century before 1690.
(04:19):
And before the Spanish got here.
We have pretty good evidencenow that many of the indigenous
peoples of America had slavery.
They didn't always necessarilycall it slavery.
No, it's often timesin the history
referred to as captive,sometimes as opposed to slaves.
But clearly, thingsthat we would recognize it
(04:40):
as human bondage, right?
Yes. The Aztecs,the Mayans in Central America,
they had slavesof some of the tribes
of Native Americansengaged in slavery.
And long a long timebefore 6019.
This is, again, an ageold institution.
(05:04):
What we really oughtto be thinking about today
is the remarkable transformationthat the world underwent
from centuries of slaverybeing common to in
just thelast 150 years or so, being
exceedingly rare by comparison.
Yeah.
And, you know, and even ifwe want to think about the
(05:27):
slave tradeand the enslaving of Africans,
the United Statesor what is now the United States
isn't the only place that thatAfrican slaves were sent to.
In fact,
I see the statistics showthat many more Africans
were taken to Brazilin the new world
than to the British coloniesin North America.
That's right.
(05:47):
And the treatmentof slaves in Brazil
for much of that experience
was considerably more brutalthan it was ever in America.
It's estimated thatabout 11 million black Africans
were forced to make the journeyin slave ships to the Americas.
But about 14 millionblack Africans made
(06:09):
similar those shorter journeysfrom Africa to Muslim
controlled countries in the Arabregions of the world.
So again,it is the unique to America,
is unique to peopleof a particular faith or color.
It's a ubiquitous institutionin history
that we only recentlyhave finally begun to shake off.
(06:31):
Yeah.
And, youknow, and as you also mentioned,
certainly in the year in Europebefore
they started importing slavesfrom other parts of the world,
we had slavery in Europeas some Europeans were enslaved
by others.
And certainly there
we know that back in ancientGreece there was slavery
and Aristotle wrote about itand so forth, right?
(06:55):
Oh, that's exactly right.
And often itoriginated in warfare
that people were enslavedafter they were first conquered.
And in those days, the colorof skin didn't matter at all.
If we're all ancient
Rome or ancient Greecewent off to conquer somebody,
they didn't care what colorthey were.
(07:16):
If they if they defeated them,they often enslaved.
All right.
Of the defeated peoples. Mm hmm.
And it was onlyrelatively late in slavery
that it started to take on thisracial or racist dimension.
And that was in partbecause we started to see
the emergenceof a global slave trade.
And I think you were describingat one point.
(07:39):
Well, you know, we go backa thousand years.
People were poor enough.
You just enslavedwhoever was nearby.
You you didn't youyou weren't going to travel
around the world to itto enslave people.
You simply conquered
the foe next doorand enslaved the survivors.
That's right.
But withthe coming of oceangoing vessels
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that could cross the Atlanticin a matter of a few weeks,
it certainly made slavery
a more of an opportunityfor the most unscrupulous
among us who thought that, Hey,I can capture some people,
make some deals with NativeAfricans to
capture or buy
(08:21):
other black Africansand take them on a ship and
sell them at auction in placeslike Grenada or Jamaica
or other islandsin the Caribbean.
Now, one thing that'sI found interesting, I think, is
just from the work of Commercescholars was that
in North America,which is one of the few cases
(08:41):
because the United Statesended the slave trade,
the international slave trade,I think in 1807 or fairly
soon after
the founding of our nation,we ended the slave trade.
But the slave population,
the United States continueto be stable and actually grow.
But there are,through natural reproduction.
And that itselfwas a bit of a oddity in our
(09:05):
case, because, for instance,in Brazil you mentioned how
brutal slavery was thereand they
they had to importmany more slaves
because my understandingis that slavery
there was so brutalthey were killing
their slaves off so frequently.
They had to keep importingnew ones to replace
the ones that died.
Yeah, that's right.
Again, you can't justifyor excuse slavery
(09:28):
in any form anywhere.
But I'll tell you, ifif I was a slave
and I could have chosen whereI wanted to end up, I would
If I knew the facts that ThomasSowell has uncovered,
I would chooseAmerica over Brazil, because
we, generally speaking, engagedin better treatment.
(09:49):
As cruel as it often was,
it was still frequently betterthan in Brazil.
Yeah, and to to one extent,
I guess Brazil never gotcalled out for its mistreatment
of slaves, in part
becauseunlike the United States,
it never made any kindof pretensions
or any illusions to being thateverybody was free and equal.
(10:10):
And so the very callousand mistreatment
that happened in Brazilsimply didn't
generatethe same kind of outrage
or as internal condemnationbecause of the inconsistency.
That's right.
It was the
words of the Declarationof Independence
that put America on a pathtowards
sooner or later recognizingthe hypocrisy of proclaiming
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the equality of all peoples,but then practicing slavery.
Many of our founders knew that
many of our founderswere opposed to slavery,
and if they thoughtthey could end it and still
keep the colonies togetherin one new nation,
they'd have done it.
But that was a compromise,actually, with the so-called
(10:54):
slave coloniesto not ended immediately.
But the words in the Declarationsurely put it on a path.
A lot of people even knewat that moment
that that would end it one wayor the other, sooner or later.
Right.
And then, you know,
I mean, I guess the one thingthat was sort of exceptional
about the United Statesand our experience with slavery
compared to other placesin the world, because eventually
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slavery has died out was wasended across the globe with
we fought this massive civil warin part to end slavery.
And it wasn't the only factor
that was involved,
but certainly it wasan important factor in it.
And that was a very calamitousand cataclysmic for our nation
at the time.
(11:37):
A civil war with massiveloss of life on both sides.
Yeah, that's right.
But ideas of freedom and freemarkets were spreading
throughout the world
in the 19th century,becoming ever more solidified
in all quarters of Americato slavery.
The clock was ticking.
(11:59):
If it hadn't been ended by
the Civil Warand the subsequent adoption
of constitutional amendmentspertaining to it,
it would not have lastedall that much longer.
Can you imagine today?
Think of all thethe black Americans
that we know who are so amazing,amazingly productive.
If all of a suddenwe made slaves of them,
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how how productivewould they be?
All right.
I mean, so what I'm suggestingis that the
that slavery could notin the long run, compete
with the productivity andthe efficiency of free labor.
So, I mean,it's a terrible shame it wasn't
ended long before it was,but it was on the way out.
And it's hard to imagine thatthat it could ever come back.
(12:47):
Yeah,I certainly hope that's true.
I think, you know,because I think we have made
a significant moral progressas a species, I think over time.
And I think, you know, a part ofthat is the
I guess it's not long before we
saw slavery die outwas the rise of liberalism
in sort of the classical sense.
(13:07):
And and
one of the
foundational elements ofthat is the equality of all.
And like, yes, you're rightthat, you know,
there was the inconsistencyfor America's founders.
Jefferson wrote those
compelling words in theDeclaration of Independence,
although at the same timehe owned slaves.
And so there was a this tension.
(13:29):
But, you know,I think there is also,
I think, pretty clear,like once you start to recognize
the principlethat others are your moral equal
and in particular, then,you know,
I guess the first thingyou're saying that the colonists
were trying to say
the kings know
better than the rest of us,
so why do we have to listento the king?
But once you start to recognizethat, yeah, everybody's
(13:52):
a moral equal of each other,
that that principleis a hard one to contain.
Yeah, that's right.
And, you know,
when you look at most progressin almost any field
of human endeavor,
you don't get instant dramatic,
you know, 180 degree turnsvery often.
(14:12):
You usually get a gradual changeas people's ideas shift.
And then you look backlater and say, Wow,
can you believe we did itthat way at one time?
And yet a lot of peoplewant to blame America
for slavery,
which again, is untenable,
not only because it wasn'texceptional to us,
(14:32):
but also because
it's taking today's
conventional wisdomand judging people of the past
by those standardsinstead of the
the contextin which they labored.
I mean, it would be like saying
to the Wright brothers,if you could go back in time,
Hey, what's the matter with youguys?
(14:53):
You got thisrickety old machine here.
You call it a plane,but there's no in-flight wi fi.
There's no in-flight meals.
I mean, you're not evenserving wine in first class.
Be. They gave us a hugestep in the right direction,
but it takes time for progressto blossom.
Well, and I think that that'sthat's a good point,
(15:13):
because I think, you know,
a lot of times in economics,when studying economics,
one of the things we emphasizeis the role of discovery. And
all of the economic knowledgewe have has to be discovered.
But I think it also becomesvery easy
to onceyou've discovered something
or oncewe've made moral progress,
to look back and say,
why wasn't why didn'tyou all know that back then?
And it is very,
(15:34):
very hard to realizethat it took a long time
to learn these things.
And, you know,very easy to think,
oh, how could youever of not have known that?
Yeah,you know, I'm very interested
in a very current issue,and that is school choice.
And I'm convinced that somedaywhen we have given parents
(15:56):
so much more choicethan they have now
to send their childrento the best and safest schools
that they want to,we'll shake our heads and say,
can you imaginethat our forefathers actually
passed lawsthat said you've got to go
to the school with it,that you're assigned
to the government schoolwithin your zip code.
(16:18):
I will shake our heads and say,
you know, what made us everthink that that would produce
the besteducational opportunities.
So even we today,
if we may want to get on ourmoral high horses and proclaim
that you know, we're better
than previous generations,but maybe future generations
will say thatsame thing about us?
(16:38):
Yeah,I think that's definitely true.
You know, and I think
as you write in, anyone
who's likely anyonewho wants to condemn
those in the pastshould remember
there are thingswe're doing today
that we're likely going to becondemned for in the future.
And, you know,
I think you've got to ask
I think we shouldall ask ourselves
a question like, you know,
are we bad peoplebecause of what we might
somebody in the futuremight look back and say,
(17:00):
you were doing thatand that was like, so bad.
How did you not know that?
Yeah, yeah.
We are imperfect people,all of us.
Everybody who's everlived is imperfect.
But you'd like to think thatwith each generation
we learn some thingsand we pass on good values
and so that the next generationcan progress and be better off.
(17:24):
But they should alwaysthose future generations
should always be gratefulthat there was somebody
along the waywho helped push things
in the right direction,
even though we weren't perfectin the process.
Now, what are the elementsof the 1619 project?
One of theessays in the 1619 project
(17:44):
pushed a
rather controversial story
line about the role of slaveryin helping to make America rich.
Because as we said, you know,the relative it's relatively
recent in human historythat we've had prosperity.
And so I think that was one
of the more controversial partsof the 1619 project,
(18:07):
the essay by Matthew Desmondthat was arguing that
that slavery helpedfound America's wealth
and is somehow responsiblefor America's wealth today.
And if we start to get into thisas he said, it's
like if slavery's been so commonin human history
and prosperity isrelative is a new thing,
(18:27):
then, you know,
you sort of have an issue here
of, I guess slavery was goingto make societies rich.
How come human humanitywasn't rich long
before the eventhe United States came along?
That's right. Yes.
Slaverydidn't make America rich.
It made a small number of peoplerich,
namely slave ownersand those perhaps who were
(18:50):
closest to them.
But it made societiesa whole poorer than it would
otherwise have been.
Just think of the productivitythat we didn't see from people
who might have been great
inventors or entrepreneursbut were enslaved.
Slavery is never goodfor society as a whole, but
it might be good for the ruler,it might be good for the older.
(19:13):
But that's it's a mistaketo conflate that
with the good of societyas a whole.
It is it.
Yeah.
Because I think, you know,and what I find so sad about
the narrative that is perhapsslavery in America or rich
was that it's really bad.
And I think that the factthat human beings have learned
(19:34):
have come to the conclusionthat, well,
we need to stop trying
to command each otheror enslave each other,
and we need to dealwith each other as equals, which
if you deal with it,if you consider each other
be equalsin the way you deal with it in
the way you should interact witheach other through exchange.
And that that gets usto the fundamentals
of a market economy.
(19:55):
And this is when people exchangethat you see prosperity
take off because as you suggest,I think it allows
all parties, all partiesto start to use their their true
human characteristicsof intelligence and creativity
to be able to come up with waysto do things better.
(20:16):
Exactly.
Nobody, no human beingwill be more productive
if somebody elseis cracking the whip
and telling them what to doat every turn than it would be
if he could pursue his owndreams, his ambitions,
put his talents to the bestpossible uses as he sees them.
I mean, there'sjust no difference between
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freedom and slavery in termsof the output of the people.
Prisons may be a good placeto punch out license plates
as prisoners do in some states,but it's not a place
where you can expect somebodyto invent a new watch,
a new iPhone or,you know, you fill in the blank.
(20:59):
That's not where innovationsin productivity excels.
Just the mostmenial tasks can be done under
the terms of slavery.
And then you lose out
on all the wonderful things freepeople might have produced.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
as you look at the plantationsystem that we had in the
(21:20):
American South, as much wealthas that appeared to be creating,
and I think there'ssome question
about how much wealthwas actually be created
if the landowners were hiring
the people who were working forthem as free, free individuals.
I mean,
I think they would have ended upbeing much wealthier
(21:40):
simplybecause as free individuals,
as we've been talking about,
they would likelyhave been contributing
to improving the wholeplanning process and
and dozens of other innovationsthat would have occurred.
Yeah.
And really,that ought to be self-evident
from our observationsabout humans and human nature.
(22:01):
I mean, how are we madeAre we made
as robots to be programedby somebody else? No.
Are we all the samefrom one person to another?
Therefore,if we just had the right
mastermind in charge, like heor she could tell us what to do.
No, we are unique creatures,each and every one of us.
And that should suggestpowerfully that we need freedom,
(22:25):
everybody,because you can't be yourself.
You can't be the unique personthat you are unless you have
considerable powerover your choices, your destiny.
Otherwise,you're not living your life.
Somebody else isliving their life through you.
That ought to be one ofthe most fundamental assertions
(22:45):
of human nature, of sociology
that comes outof every American classroom.
I mean, we are made to be free,not to be slaves.
Yeah, because, I mean, I think
in many ways, you know, like
I remember reading the inspiringstory of Harriet Tubman, and I
even, like,try to imagine, like,
what what would have beento be born as a slave.
(23:07):
But, you know, you see herinspiring story there.
You see something inside of herthat at a very young age
seemed to clickand realize like,
I'm not going to be anybody'sslave and know.
And once, you know, once
she recognized that, onceshe came to that,
then nobody was going to
be able to productivelyhold her in chains and get any
(23:28):
productive work out of her.
She was she freed herself,even though then she actually
did literallyfree herself by escaping.
But it was the freeingof herself that occurred in her
in her mind first that thenled her to seek her freedom.
That's right.
And what makes her
all the more remarkableare really a couple of things.
(23:49):
One, once she gained her freedomby escaping,
she didn't just say, Well,I'm done.
I'll just do my thing now.
She was committed
to the freedom of othersand took many great risks
to help others from enslavedstates
to come to freedom in the Northor into Canada.
And the other reasonI love the Tubman story,
(24:10):
and this is a part of herthat most people don't know.
You know, she had a problemfrom an early age
as a slave with frequentmigraines
and blurryvision, and it stemmed from
some buildon the plantation hitting her.
I think it was the slavesforemen, perhaps.
Well, when she was in herseventies, she had an operation.
(24:32):
This was long aftershe gained her freedom.
She had a brain operationand refused anesthesia,
and she lived for another15 years with those problems
largely resolved.
And she was stilloccasionally speaking.
And she would say things like,
Yeah,they took the top of my head off
and fiddle around in thereand put the top back on them.
(24:53):
I feel just fine.
I mean, talk about a uniqueand tough lady.
Mm hmm.
You know,there are just endless stories
like that of people who blossomwhen they're free,
but don't go very farwhen they're slaves.
And thenI think, you know, from a
(25:13):
society standpoint, I mean,
the only the only wayyou can keep people in
slavery is in some waysto make sure that they don't
recognize their full humanity,because once they
do, then,like in the case of Ms..
Tubman,you're not going to be able
to keep them as slaves anymoreand and like that.
That'sjust such a waste of potential
(25:34):
when you're you have to havea system in place to keep people
from, you know, becomingeverything they could be. And.
AndrewAnd I suppose in retrospect,
it's probably not surprising
then that that humanityremained poor for so long
when, you know,when those in charge not just
with slaves, but they were serfsand other forms of of bondage
(25:56):
or subjugation of humans,and trying to keep that in place
by keeping peoplefrom recognizing
the people you're trying to keepsubjugated from, recognizing
just how wonderful and specialthey are.
And so then they also can'tcontribute economically.
Yeah, for those very reasons,
it was the case in most,if not all of the old slave
(26:18):
states that educating slaveswas made illegal.
Mm hmm.
That you could be fined
for educated a slavebecause they didn't
want the slaves
to learn enough to realizethat they were in slavery.
Didn't have to be that way.
And that they had rightsjust like everybody else do.
(26:38):
You know, I believeI also remember reading that
there were restrictionson even like teaching, you know,
having the slaves read the Bibleor spreading Christianity
to the slaves,although it's spread informally.
But in terms of limits on
any church figurestrying to go in and
talk to the slaves or befor some of these same reasons.
(27:02):
Oh, that's right.
You know,
it would be wrongto think of the old slave states
as monolithic.
You know, every non slavefavored slavery. No.
Many people didn't and paidthe price.
They went to jailbecause they were caught
educatingblack people who were slaves.
So therewere a lot of people who
(27:24):
were against
it and worked against it longbefore we finally got rid of it.
Yeah.
And, you know,I think one last way to sort of
have a perspective on this
is that in some sense,this is a great triumph
for humanity that we did manageto in a relatively short,
you know, in terms of this longspan of human history,
(27:44):
a relatively shortperiod of time.
We managed to get ridof slavery.
And, you know,
it was probably about a 100 yearspan there where slavery was
legal everywhere.
And then within 100 years,it's gone.
And like in this whole span
of thousandsof years of human history,
that's just aa wink of an eye almost.
And so, you know,
as it went,that's also a lot longer
(28:06):
than you might have hopedit happened.
But we andit also happened relatively
or amazinglyshort period of time.
And I think, you know,
liberalismis a big part of that story.
Yeah, absolutely.
Adam Smith wroteThe Wealth of Nations in 1776,
and he opened our eyesto the importance
of free people and how they
(28:30):
don't need a wiseguy to talk,
to tell themhow to make an economy run
that free peopleare can be amazingly productive.
And increasingly peoplecame to see the wisdom in that.
And so in the spanof about 100 years,
we went from slaverybeing the accepted norm,
being ubiquitousaround the world
(28:51):
to being on the run everywhereand abolished in most places.
It still exists today,
but the number of countriesthat don't
that allow itor look the other way
is is a very small one indeed.
And just
one last thingthat gets close to there is like
a Thomas Law makes the pointthat it was only sort of
(29:13):
like in America
that they startedhaving some defenses of slavery
because throughoutso much of human history
was thought like there's nothingyou even have to defend.
It's just nature.
Yeah. Yeah.
Looking back on that, it was
we can take it as a signthat slavery was on its way out,
that so many peoplehad to find that
they felt compelled to come upwith arguments to defend it,
(29:35):
which, as you point out,they didn't have to do before.
Well, thanks so much, Larry,
for coming onand talk about this with us.
And thank youall for joining us.
Join us again next timefor another E Conversations.
This has been in conversations,a joint production
of Troy Church and Visionand Emmanuel H.
Johnson Center for PoliticalEconomy at Troy University in.
(30:07):
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ethical decision makers engagedwith the business community
not eligible to compete andsuccessful in business and life.
More informationat Troy Dot edu slash business.
Supportfor the Double Doom podcast
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ethical decision makers engagedwith the business community
knowledgeable to compete andsuccessful in business and life.
More information at Troydot edu slash business.
(00:24):
The opinionsexpressed on this program
representthe viewpoints of individual
authors or contributorsand do not necessarily reflect
those of Troy University.
This is E Conversations,
a joint program, TroyTurgeon Vision and Emmanuel H.
Johnson Centerfor Political Economy.
(00:44):
Now here's your host, Dr.
Danso.
Hello and welcome to youConversations.
I'm your host, Dr.
Dan Sutter of the Johnson Center
for Political Economyat Troy University.
Hulu recentlydebuted a television series
based on the New York Times
1619 project, which suggestedthat Colonial Virginia
(01:04):
in 1619 was where slavery beganin the Americas.
Slavery was a horrible evilin human society,
but it has been widely examinedby historians,
and the historical realityis that slavery
did not begin in the Americassome 400 years ago.
The sad truth is that slaverywas a part of human society
for a very long time,
and in societiesacross the globe, it's only been
(01:26):
in the past 200 years orso that slavery was eradicated.
And it was also during that time
that standards of livinghave taken off.
And what economic historianDeirdre McCloskey refers to
as the great enrichment.
What lessons does the historyof slavery offer for today?
Joining me on the conversationsto discuss this is economic
historian Laurence Reed.
(01:47):
Mr. Reed served as the presidentof the Foundation for
of Action for Economic Educationfor many years,
an outstanding organization
dedicated to educating peopleabout how a market
economy operates.
And it's one
that the Johnson Centerhas partnered
with on several projectsover the years.
Prior to joining Fee,
Larry was a professorof economics
at Northwood Universityin Michigan
(02:09):
and president
of the American Centerfor Public Policy,
which is also locatedin Michigan.
Welcome back to the show, Larry.
Hey, thank youfor having me, Dan.
I appreciate it very much.
Well,you've written several pieces
for for a fee recentlyand talk about some of the
this history of slavery.
And, you know, we're goingto get into some of that.
But I think we were before
(02:29):
we get into some of the details,I think I want to touch on.
Why why is it so important thatthat we have this
perspective on
slavery in human
history and not just slaveryin the United States?
Slavery,Dan, is a very unfortunate
a blot on the human experience,but it is
(02:50):
by no meansunique to this country.
And so those who seem to havean agenda sometimes to
attack America oftendon't want you to know.
Or they neglect to mention
that slavery is an ageold institution
that if America is exceptional
on this matter at all,it may be for what we did
(03:11):
to get rid of it, but notexceptional because we had it.
It goes back to ancient times.
Most of the people, in fact,who have ever lived
on this planethave either been slaves
or lived as near slavesor near serfs
in constant subjection towhoever happened to be in power.
(03:35):
So it's a common experience.
But although it can never beexcused or justified,
it is by no meansexceptional to this country.
And so let's start here.
In 1619,it turns out actually slavery,
as imposed by Europeans, wasalready existing in the Americas
because the Spanish had gottento have gotten established
(03:56):
in the Americasa little bit before that.
And and they had brought slaverywith them, haven't they?
That's right.
The Spanish brought slavesnearly a century
before the 1619 experienceat Jamestown.
And so they brought slavesto multiple places
in the Americasalmost a century before 1690.
(04:19):
And before the Spanish got here.
We have pretty good evidencenow that many of the indigenous
peoples of America had slavery.
They didn't always necessarilycall it slavery.
No, it's often timesin the history
referred to as captive,sometimes as opposed to slaves.
But clearly, thingsthat we would recognize it
(04:40):
as human bondage, right?
Yes. The Aztecs,the Mayans in Central America,
they had slavesof some of the tribes
of Native Americansengaged in slavery.
And long a long timebefore 6019.
This is, again, an ageold institution.
(05:04):
What we really oughtto be thinking about today
is the remarkable transformationthat the world underwent
from centuries of slaverybeing common to in
just thelast 150 years or so, being
exceedingly rare by comparison.
Yeah.
And, you know, and even ifwe want to think about the
(05:27):
slave tradeand the enslaving of Africans,
the United Statesor what is now the United States
isn't the only place that thatAfrican slaves were sent to.
In fact,
I see the statistics showthat many more Africans
were taken to Brazilin the new world
than to the British coloniesin North America.
That's right.
(05:47):
And the treatmentof slaves in Brazil
for much of that experience
was considerably more brutalthan it was ever in America.
It's estimated thatabout 11 million black Africans
were forced to make the journeyin slave ships to the Americas.
But about 14 millionblack Africans made
(06:09):
similar those shorter journeysfrom Africa to Muslim
controlled countries in the Arabregions of the world.
So again,it is the unique to America,
is unique to peopleof a particular faith or color.
It's a ubiquitous institutionin history
that we only recentlyhave finally begun to shake off.
(06:31):
Yeah.
And, youknow, and as you also mentioned,
certainly in the year in Europebefore
they started importing slavesfrom other parts of the world,
we had slavery in Europeas some Europeans were enslaved
by others.
And certainly there
we know that back in ancientGreece there was slavery
and Aristotle wrote about itand so forth, right?
(06:55):
Oh, that's exactly right.
And often itoriginated in warfare
that people were enslavedafter they were first conquered.
And in those days, the colorof skin didn't matter at all.
If we're all ancient
Rome or ancient Greecewent off to conquer somebody,
they didn't care what colorthey were.
(07:16):
If they if they defeated them,they often enslaved.
All right.
Of the defeated peoples. Mm hmm.
And it was onlyrelatively late in slavery
that it started to take on thisracial or racist dimension.
And that was in partbecause we started to see
the emergenceof a global slave trade.
And I think you were describingat one point.
(07:39):
Well, you know, we go backa thousand years.
People were poor enough.
You just enslavedwhoever was nearby.
You you didn't youyou weren't going to travel
around the world to itto enslave people.
You simply conquered
the foe next doorand enslaved the survivors.
That's right.
But withthe coming of oceangoing vessels
(07:59):
that could cross the Atlanticin a matter of a few weeks,
it certainly made slavery
a more of an opportunityfor the most unscrupulous
among us who thought that, Hey,I can capture some people,
make some deals with NativeAfricans to
capture or buy
(08:21):
other black Africansand take them on a ship and
sell them at auction in placeslike Grenada or Jamaica
or other islandsin the Caribbean.
Now, one thing that'sI found interesting, I think, is
just from the work of Commercescholars was that
in North America,which is one of the few cases
(08:41):
because the United Statesended the slave trade,
the international slave trade,I think in 1807 or fairly
soon after
the founding of our nation,we ended the slave trade.
But the slave population,
the United States continueto be stable and actually grow.
But there are,through natural reproduction.
And that itselfwas a bit of a oddity in our
(09:05):
case, because, for instance,in Brazil you mentioned how
brutal slavery was thereand they
they had to importmany more slaves
because my understandingis that slavery
there was so brutalthey were killing
their slaves off so frequently.
They had to keep importingnew ones to replace
the ones that died.
Yeah, that's right.
Again, you can't justifyor excuse slavery
(09:28):
in any form anywhere.
But I'll tell you, ifif I was a slave
and I could have chosen whereI wanted to end up, I would
If I knew the facts that ThomasSowell has uncovered,
I would chooseAmerica over Brazil, because
we, generally speaking, engagedin better treatment.
(09:49):
As cruel as it often was,
it was still frequently betterthan in Brazil.
Yeah, and to to one extent,
I guess Brazil never gotcalled out for its mistreatment
of slaves, in part
becauseunlike the United States,
it never made any kindof pretensions
or any illusions to being thateverybody was free and equal.
(10:10):
And so the very callousand mistreatment
that happened in Brazilsimply didn't
generatethe same kind of outrage
or as internal condemnationbecause of the inconsistency.
That's right.
It was the
words of the Declarationof Independence
that put America on a pathtowards
sooner or later recognizingthe hypocrisy of proclaiming
(10:34):
the equality of all peoples,but then practicing slavery.
Many of our founders knew that
many of our founderswere opposed to slavery,
and if they thoughtthey could end it and still
keep the colonies togetherin one new nation,
they'd have done it.
But that was a compromise,actually, with the so-called
(10:54):
slave coloniesto not ended immediately.
But the words in the Declarationsurely put it on a path.
A lot of people even knewat that moment
that that would end it one wayor the other, sooner or later.
Right.
And then, you know,
I mean, I guess the one thingthat was sort of exceptional
about the United Statesand our experience with slavery
compared to other placesin the world, because eventually
(11:17):
slavery has died out was wasended across the globe with
we fought this massive civil warin part to end slavery.
And it wasn't the only factor
that was involved,
but certainly it wasan important factor in it.
And that was a very calamitousand cataclysmic for our nation
at the time.
(11:37):
A civil war with massiveloss of life on both sides.
Yeah, that's right.
But ideas of freedom and freemarkets were spreading
throughout the world
in the 19th century,becoming ever more solidified
in all quarters of Americato slavery.
The clock was ticking.
(11:59):
If it hadn't been ended by
the Civil Warand the subsequent adoption
of constitutional amendmentspertaining to it,
it would not have lastedall that much longer.
Can you imagine today?
Think of all thethe black Americans
that we know who are so amazing,amazingly productive.
If all of a suddenwe made slaves of them,
(12:22):
how how productivewould they be?
All right.
I mean, so what I'm suggestingis that the
that slavery could notin the long run, compete
with the productivity andthe efficiency of free labor.
So, I mean,it's a terrible shame it wasn't
ended long before it was,but it was on the way out.
And it's hard to imagine thatthat it could ever come back.
(12:47):
Yeah,I certainly hope that's true.
I think, you know,because I think we have made
a significant moral progressas a species, I think over time.
And I think, you know, a part ofthat is the
I guess it's not long before we
saw slavery die outwas the rise of liberalism
in sort of the classical sense.
(13:07):
And and
one of the
foundational elements ofthat is the equality of all.
And like, yes, you're rightthat, you know,
there was the inconsistencyfor America's founders.
Jefferson wrote those
compelling words in theDeclaration of Independence,
although at the same timehe owned slaves.
And so there was a this tension.
(13:29):
But, you know,I think there is also,
I think, pretty clear,like once you start to recognize
the principlethat others are your moral equal
and in particular, then,you know,
I guess the first thingyou're saying that the colonists
were trying to say
the kings know
better than the rest of us,
so why do we have to listento the king?
But once you start to recognizethat, yeah, everybody's
(13:52):
a moral equal of each other,
that that principleis a hard one to contain.
Yeah, that's right.
And, you know,
when you look at most progressin almost any field
of human endeavor,
you don't get instant dramatic,
you know, 180 degree turnsvery often.
(14:12):
You usually get a gradual changeas people's ideas shift.
And then you look backlater and say, Wow,
can you believe we did itthat way at one time?
And yet a lot of peoplewant to blame America
for slavery,
which again, is untenable,
not only because it wasn'texceptional to us,
(14:32):
but also because
it's taking today's
conventional wisdomand judging people of the past
by those standardsinstead of the
the contextin which they labored.
I mean, it would be like saying
to the Wright brothers,if you could go back in time,
Hey, what's the matter with youguys?
(14:53):
You got thisrickety old machine here.
You call it a plane,but there's no in-flight wi fi.
There's no in-flight meals.
I mean, you're not evenserving wine in first class.
Be. They gave us a hugestep in the right direction,
but it takes time for progressto blossom.
Well, and I think that that'sthat's a good point,
(15:13):
because I think, you know,
a lot of times in economics,when studying economics,
one of the things we emphasizeis the role of discovery. And
all of the economic knowledgewe have has to be discovered.
But I think it also becomesvery easy
to onceyou've discovered something
or oncewe've made moral progress,
to look back and say,
why wasn't why didn'tyou all know that back then?
And it is very,
(15:34):
very hard to realizethat it took a long time
to learn these things.
And, you know,very easy to think,
oh, how could youever of not have known that?
Yeah,you know, I'm very interested
in a very current issue,and that is school choice.
And I'm convinced that somedaywhen we have given parents
(15:56):
so much more choicethan they have now
to send their childrento the best and safest schools
that they want to,we'll shake our heads and say,
can you imaginethat our forefathers actually
passed lawsthat said you've got to go
to the school with it,that you're assigned
to the government schoolwithin your zip code.
(16:18):
I will shake our heads and say,
you know, what made us everthink that that would produce
the besteducational opportunities.
So even we today,
if we may want to get on ourmoral high horses and proclaim
that you know, we're better
than previous generations,but maybe future generations
will say thatsame thing about us?
(16:38):
Yeah,I think that's definitely true.
You know, and I think
as you write in, anyone
who's likely anyonewho wants to condemn
those in the pastshould remember
there are thingswe're doing today
that we're likely going to becondemned for in the future.
And, you know,
I think you've got to ask
I think we shouldall ask ourselves
a question like, you know,
are we bad peoplebecause of what we might
somebody in the futuremight look back and say,
(17:00):
you were doing thatand that was like, so bad.
How did you not know that?
Yeah, yeah.
We are imperfect people,all of us.
Everybody who's everlived is imperfect.
But you'd like to think thatwith each generation
we learn some thingsand we pass on good values
and so that the next generationcan progress and be better off.
(17:24):
But they should alwaysthose future generations
should always be gratefulthat there was somebody
along the waywho helped push things
in the right direction,
even though we weren't perfectin the process.
Now, what are the elementsof the 1619 project?
One of theessays in the 1619 project
(17:44):
pushed a
rather controversial story
line about the role of slaveryin helping to make America rich.
Because as we said, you know,the relative it's relatively
recent in human historythat we've had prosperity.
And so I think that was one
of the more controversial partsof the 1619 project,
(18:07):
the essay by Matthew Desmondthat was arguing that
that slavery helpedfound America's wealth
and is somehow responsiblefor America's wealth today.
And if we start to get into thisas he said, it's
like if slavery's been so commonin human history
and prosperity isrelative is a new thing,
(18:27):
then, you know,
you sort of have an issue here
of, I guess slavery was goingto make societies rich.
How come human humanitywasn't rich long
before the eventhe United States came along?
That's right. Yes.
Slaverydidn't make America rich.
It made a small number of peoplerich,
namely slave ownersand those perhaps who were
(18:50):
closest to them.
But it made societiesa whole poorer than it would
otherwise have been.
Just think of the productivitythat we didn't see from people
who might have been great
inventors or entrepreneursbut were enslaved.
Slavery is never goodfor society as a whole, but
it might be good for the ruler,it might be good for the older.
(19:13):
But that's it's a mistaketo conflate that
with the good of societyas a whole.
It is it.
Yeah.
Because I think, you know,and what I find so sad about
the narrative that is perhapsslavery in America or rich
was that it's really bad.
And I think that the factthat human beings have learned
(19:34):
have come to the conclusionthat, well,
we need to stop trying
to command each otheror enslave each other,
and we need to dealwith each other as equals, which
if you deal with it,if you consider each other
be equalsin the way you deal with it in
the way you should interact witheach other through exchange.
And that that gets usto the fundamentals
of a market economy.
(19:55):
And this is when people exchangethat you see prosperity
take off because as you suggest,I think it allows
all parties, all partiesto start to use their their true
human characteristicsof intelligence and creativity
to be able to come up with waysto do things better.
(20:16):
Exactly.
Nobody, no human beingwill be more productive
if somebody elseis cracking the whip
and telling them what to doat every turn than it would be
if he could pursue his owndreams, his ambitions,
put his talents to the bestpossible uses as he sees them.
I mean, there'sjust no difference between
(20:38):
freedom and slavery in termsof the output of the people.
Prisons may be a good placeto punch out license plates
as prisoners do in some states,but it's not a place
where you can expect somebodyto invent a new watch,
a new iPhone or,you know, you fill in the blank.
(20:59):
That's not where innovationsin productivity excels.
Just the mostmenial tasks can be done under
the terms of slavery.
And then you lose out
on all the wonderful things freepeople might have produced.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
as you look at the plantationsystem that we had in the
(21:20):
American South, as much wealthas that appeared to be creating,
and I think there'ssome question
about how much wealthwas actually be created
if the landowners were hiring
the people who were working forthem as free, free individuals.
I mean,
I think they would have ended upbeing much wealthier
(21:40):
simplybecause as free individuals,
as we've been talking about,
they would likelyhave been contributing
to improving the wholeplanning process and
and dozens of other innovationsthat would have occurred.
Yeah.
And really,that ought to be self-evident
from our observationsabout humans and human nature.
(22:01):
I mean, how are we madeAre we made
as robots to be programedby somebody else? No.
Are we all the samefrom one person to another?
Therefore,if we just had the right
mastermind in charge, like heor she could tell us what to do.
No, we are unique creatures,each and every one of us.
And that should suggestpowerfully that we need freedom,
(22:25):
everybody,because you can't be yourself.
You can't be the unique personthat you are unless you have
considerable powerover your choices, your destiny.
Otherwise,you're not living your life.
Somebody else isliving their life through you.
That ought to be one ofthe most fundamental assertions
(22:45):
of human nature, of sociology
that comes outof every American classroom.
I mean, we are made to be free,not to be slaves.
Yeah, because, I mean, I think
in many ways, you know, like
I remember reading the inspiringstory of Harriet Tubman, and I
even, like,try to imagine, like,
what what would have beento be born as a slave.
(23:07):
But, you know, you see herinspiring story there.
You see something inside of herthat at a very young age
seemed to clickand realize like,
I'm not going to be anybody'sslave and know.
And once, you know, once
she recognized that, onceshe came to that,
then nobody was going to
be able to productivelyhold her in chains and get any
(23:28):
productive work out of her.
She was she freed herself,even though then she actually
did literallyfree herself by escaping.
But it was the freeingof herself that occurred in her
in her mind first that thenled her to seek her freedom.
That's right.
And what makes her
all the more remarkableare really a couple of things.
(23:49):
One, once she gained her freedomby escaping,
she didn't just say, Well,I'm done.
I'll just do my thing now.
She was committed
to the freedom of othersand took many great risks
to help others from enslavedstates
to come to freedom in the Northor into Canada.
And the other reasonI love the Tubman story,
(24:10):
and this is a part of herthat most people don't know.
You know, she had a problemfrom an early age
as a slave with frequentmigraines
and blurryvision, and it stemmed from
some buildon the plantation hitting her.
I think it was the slavesforemen, perhaps.
Well, when she was in herseventies, she had an operation.
(24:32):
This was long aftershe gained her freedom.
She had a brain operationand refused anesthesia,
and she lived for another15 years with those problems
largely resolved.
And she was stilloccasionally speaking.
And she would say things like,
Yeah,they took the top of my head off
and fiddle around in thereand put the top back on them.
(24:53):
I feel just fine.
I mean, talk about a uniqueand tough lady.
Mm hmm.
You know,there are just endless stories
like that of people who blossomwhen they're free,
but don't go very farwhen they're slaves.
And thenI think, you know, from a
(25:13):
society standpoint, I mean,
the only the only wayyou can keep people in
slavery is in some waysto make sure that they don't
recognize their full humanity,because once they
do, then,like in the case of Ms..
Tubman,you're not going to be able
to keep them as slaves anymoreand and like that.
That'sjust such a waste of potential
(25:34):
when you're you have to havea system in place to keep people
from, you know, becomingeverything they could be. And.
AndrewAnd I suppose in retrospect,
it's probably not surprising
then that that humanityremained poor for so long
when, you know,when those in charge not just
with slaves, but they were serfsand other forms of of bondage
(25:56):
or subjugation of humans,and trying to keep that in place
by keeping peoplefrom recognizing
the people you're trying to keepsubjugated from, recognizing
just how wonderful and specialthey are.
And so then they also can'tcontribute economically.
Yeah, for those very reasons,
it was the case in most,if not all of the old slave
(26:18):
states that educating slaveswas made illegal.
Mm hmm.
That you could be fined
for educated a slavebecause they didn't
want the slaves
to learn enough to realizethat they were in slavery.
Didn't have to be that way.
And that they had rightsjust like everybody else do.
(26:38):
You know, I believeI also remember reading that
there were restrictionson even like teaching, you know,
having the slaves read the Bibleor spreading Christianity
to the slaves,although it's spread informally.
But in terms of limits on
any church figurestrying to go in and
talk to the slaves or befor some of these same reasons.
(27:02):
Oh, that's right.
You know,
it would be wrongto think of the old slave states
as monolithic.
You know, every non slavefavored slavery. No.
Many people didn't and paidthe price.
They went to jailbecause they were caught
educatingblack people who were slaves.
So therewere a lot of people who
(27:24):
were against
it and worked against it longbefore we finally got rid of it.
Yeah.
And, you know,I think one last way to sort of
have a perspective on this
is that in some sense,this is a great triumph
for humanity that we did manageto in a relatively short,
you know, in terms of this longspan of human history,
(27:44):
a relatively shortperiod of time.
We managed to get ridof slavery.
And, you know,
it was probably about a 100 yearspan there where slavery was
legal everywhere.
And then within 100 years,it's gone.
And like in this whole span
of thousandsof years of human history,
that's just aa wink of an eye almost.
And so, you know,
as it went,that's also a lot longer
(28:06):
than you might have hopedit happened.
But we andit also happened relatively
or amazinglyshort period of time.
And I think, you know,
liberalismis a big part of that story.
Yeah, absolutely.
Adam Smith wroteThe Wealth of Nations in 1776,
and he opened our eyesto the importance
of free people and how they
(28:30):
don't need a wiseguy to talk,
to tell themhow to make an economy run
that free peopleare can be amazingly productive.
And increasingly peoplecame to see the wisdom in that.
And so in the spanof about 100 years,
we went from slaverybeing the accepted norm,
being ubiquitousaround the world
(28:51):
to being on the run everywhereand abolished in most places.
It still exists today,
but the number of countriesthat don't
that allow itor look the other way
is is a very small one indeed.
And just
one last thingthat gets close to there is like
a Thomas Law makes the pointthat it was only sort of
(29:13):
like in America
that they startedhaving some defenses of slavery
because throughoutso much of human history
was thought like there's nothingyou even have to defend.
It's just nature.
Yeah. Yeah.
Looking back on that, it was
we can take it as a signthat slavery was on its way out,
that so many peoplehad to find that
they felt compelled to come upwith arguments to defend it,
(29:35):
which, as you point out,they didn't have to do before.
Well, thanks so much, Larry,
for coming onand talk about this with us.
And thank youall for joining us.
Join us again next timefor another E Conversations.
This has been in conversations,a joint production
of Troy Church and Visionand Emmanuel H.
Johnson Center for PoliticalEconomy at Troy University in.
(30:07):
Support for the Double Doompodcast comes from the Civil War
College of Business at TroyUniversity, where students
become geeks, an acronymfor Globally aware
ethical decision makers engagedwith the business community
not eligible to compete andsuccessful in business and life.
More informationat Troy Dot edu slash business.
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