June 9, 2025 • 29 mins
When Markus Reneau asked his eighth-grade teacher if she thought he should apply for the one of the most rigorous educational programmes available to him, she looked him in the eye and said, “No.” Her reason? “It won’t be fun.” In a room full of Black and Hispanic students, the message was clear—academic challenge wasn’t for them.
But Markus had other plans.
In this episode of Education by Design, we follow Markus’s extraordinary journey from a marginalized school community in New Orleans to Yale University, Howard Law School, and Georgetown University. His path isn’t just one of academic success—it’s a story of clarity, conviction, and choosing to use opportunity in service of others.
Throughout our conversation, Markus reflects on how his high school education gave him more than just knowledge—it gave him a worldview shaped by critical thinking, cross-cultural understanding, and the moral imperative to give back. From his early experiences in classrooms with ESL peers, to studying African American Studies and education policy, to his current work advancing economic justice through law, Markus embodies what it means to lead with empathy and purpose.
This episode invites listeners to consider what happens when we limit student potential—consciously or not—and how much power educators hold in helping students see beyond the boundaries others place on them. It’s a challenge to every teacher, policymaker, and school leader: what might change if we chose to see our students not for where they are, but for who they could become?
Markus’s story is not one of exception—it’s one of design. A design that asks us to look again at the structures we take for granted and to ask, what are we really preparing our students for? And, can every student engage in ways that advance them on their own journey? Who are we to stand in their way?
In this Episode, I share excerpts from Markus' 2019 address to the IB Global Conference in New Orleans in 2019. You can watch his full address, here.
Follow the EduByDesign Blog to explore the podcast topics, further.
And please let Phil know what resonates with you, in the comments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
We've been refining the system for decades, but what
if it's time to redesign it?
Not from scratch, but from whatwe know works.
You're listening to Education byDesign.
I'm your host, Phil Evans.
(00:43):
In this episode, I'm speakingwith Marcus Reno.
His story challenges all of usto think differently about
authenticity in the classroomand what's informing choices
that students make as they comeup through their schooling
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
I learned about strength and what it meant to
persevere for my family before Iever faced an educational trial
in school.
My mother remained steadfast,determined to beat the challenge
before her because she knew thestatistics that were stacked
against me.
Being the son of a single motherraised in New Orleans,
(01:23):
Louisiana, in a lowersocioeconomic status.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
That was Marcus speaking at a global education
conference in New Orleans in2019, just after he'd graduated
from Yale University.
I remember that day vividly.
I was standing at the back goesfar beyond his circumstances.
(02:03):
He wants to focus on what theseopportunities have afforded him
and how he can use thoseopportunities to make the world
a better place.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
I graduated in 2019 and then I started a teaching
fellowship at the Oakham Schoolin England.
I was hired as a Yale Fellow, itwas called.
So like every year the schoolwould hire like a senior from
(02:33):
Yale to come and like teach andbe college counselor.
The school, albeit like is in anarea that's 90% white, but they
were very, like they were awareof the fact that we're like, you
know, we're a posh Britishschool.
But at the same time, we try tohave our students like
understand like that the realworld is not like this.
(02:57):
It was interesting being there.
Because that was a completelydifferent shift than anything I
was used to.
I know a lot of teachers, I canjust tell, they didn't expect me
to be who I am.
Because when I heard, yeah,hello, they had one idea.
And then it's like, here I come.
And then I'm completelydifferent than that.
And then I remember when thehousemaster introduced me to the
(03:20):
boys in the house.
He was like, yeah, Mr.
Renaud is the smartest personI've ever met.
And, like, the looks on, like, alot of the kids' faces, they
were just, like...
Like, a lot of the boys, theyhad, like, we had, like, real
talks where they, like, talkedabout how, like, oh, you know,
the Black people I've interactedwith have not been, like,
professionals.
And it's, like, you show methat, like, oh, you know,
(03:42):
there's, like, different typesof people all over.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
It's difficult for me to try and put myself in
Marcus's shoes that everywherehe goes, he has to wait for
people to realize how astute andhow accomplished he is.
That's just something thatpeople like me don't face.
Marcus is obviously regarded forhis accomplishments in
academics, but there's so muchmore to Marcus's intellectual
(04:16):
curiosity.
It's the way that he is patientwith people who are different
from himself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
When I was an undergrad, I majored in
African-American studies andalso education policy.
I did that because the advicethat I got was going into law
school, they just tell you totake things that you're
interested in.
Just for a long time in my life,I've been interested in black
history.
(04:43):
So that's why I choseAfrican-American studies.
But then I didn't realize thatat Yale, it was so
interdisciplinary.
So I got like...
soft skills of classes of likesociology, political science.
I took economics classes,anthropology.
So that kind of really made meunderstand that the connections
(05:05):
even more than I did coming fromhigh school.
So that interest kind of broughtme into wanting to do the law.
Once I got to law school, I knewthat I wanted to do civil rights
law.
And to me, Growing up in NewOrleans, that meant education
and criminal justice.
(05:26):
That is civil rights.
If you can't even read and youdon't have freedom, then you
can't vote.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
And your own human potential is limited and your
ability to connect with otherpeople and from different
experiences too.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yeah, exactly.
The people I met on the rugbyteam were vastly different than
the people who were inAfrican-American studies classes
with me.
But I saw the value in knowingboth of them.
Like, I remember, too, when Iwas on campus in, like, 2015 to
2019.
And so I remember there weretimes where I'd come to
practice, like, the day aftergoing to, like, a protest.
(06:03):
And I'd have my teammates whowould, like, ask me questions.
They're like, yo, what werey'all yelling about?
Like, I didn't understand.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
And,
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
you know, I'd break down the issue.
And then they would be like, oh,I appreciate that you didn't,
like, bite my head off because Iasked the question.
And then I was like, well, youknow, I know deep down you're
actually trying to understand.
There's little stuff like thatwhere it's like I was able to
break down, I guess, like thebarrier that some people saw
because they were like, oh, youknow, it's just like a rich
(06:33):
white kid.
You don't really care about theissue.
And it's like, no, they do.
It's like you just can't belike, oh, you know what it is.
And a lot of people like I'm notgoing to sit here and educate
you.
If you're really trying torecruit people to help you,
you're going to have to do alittle teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
What were some of the educational experiences that
you had that informed thisimportance around seeing things
from different people'sperspectives and engaging with
people who are different fromyourself?
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
I really enjoy TOK.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Let me just quickly explain that.
TOK stands for Theory ofKnowledge.
It's a diploma program coursestudents take to encourage them
to think critically about thenature of knowledge and the
process of knowing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Those TOK topics came up when I took a class
called Norms and Deviants.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
And under like sociology.
And it was literally talkingabout like what is right or
wrong is based on who is inpower.
And just like stuff like thatkind of just being unafraid to
like question my own, I guess,sensibilities and understanding
that like being able to do thatis how you can have like
cross-cultural communication.
(07:36):
I think high school was thefirst time I really had the
opportunity to like bridgeacross cultures.
Because in my school, like thatcharter was for international
business.
And we had this thing where ourESL, like English second
language program was very strongbecause we had a lot of students
(07:57):
who didn't speak English at all.
And so that was alwaysinteresting to be in like
science class and like yourpartner just doesn't speak
English.
And I was sitting there like,how is he even, how is he
getting instruction?
And somehow he was doing itbecause I remember like he would
answer questions in brokenEnglish.
And I was just like fascinated.
(08:18):
And so I think like being atschool like that, it kind of
pushed you out of your comfortzone.
For sure.
Yeah, in high school was thefirst time I met like somebody
from Russia, people from likedifferent parts of Asia.
Or like I first time I metsomebody from Syria, who was I
think she was actually like arefugee from the Syrian war.
I was able to find commonalitywith people who were from vastly
(08:41):
different experiences and plustwo in the city of New Orleans
itself because our students camefrom all around the city.
And so that kind of preemptedthe way that I went through like
college and the rest of my lifewas always remembering, you
know, it's all right to justnot, not be completely like
somebody, but you can still findsomething in the middle.
(09:05):
And so I think that's why I'vebeen able to like go all the way
to middle England and still feelcomfortable.
You know, I mean, we got thiscommon thing.
We all play rugby.
It's like you're from a farmingvillage in middle England and
I'm from Woolens.
But, you know, we can stillshare a beer together because
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
we're
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
all human beings.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
My extended essay topic ended up being the effects
of educational inequity on themarginalized.
From that research, I began myforay into the world of
education policy.
Like my brother Ricky before me,I received full-ride
scholarships to college, and Ichose to attend Yale University
(09:53):
off the strength of theirAfrican-American studies
department.
Through my research into thehistory of American education,
and more specifically, theassociated inequities, I came to
understand that in this country,race and class were both
interconnected and often anindicator of someone's success
(10:16):
in life.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
I remember how powerful it was to listen to how
you'd taken your high schoolresearch into education
inequality, into your jointundergraduate thesis.
Would you be willing to share alittle bit about the influences
for the topic?
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
It's interesting because my extended essay, I
blew it up more and it became mythesis in undergrad.
And I think my interest in itreally just came from looking
around.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Because I know in New Orleans at the time I went,
I think it's still the sametoday, but it's changing a
little bit.
It was And what
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
did you discover?
What do you feel really couldhelp us to understand how to
ensure that there's greaterholistic opportunity for all
students?
SPEAKER_02 (11:33):
I think.
Cause like if you, you can'tconceptualize something and you
can't think to it, to likeattain or reach for it.
And so I know like in my ownlife, I'm first generation
college student, but my, both ofmy parents have like an
associates or a certificate.
(11:54):
So they had like the idea ofschool.
They just didn't have like fouryear degree.
Like they're like, I don'treally know what that looks
like.
And then as a kid, I went tothis enrichment program over the
summer that was calledBreakthrough.
And I taught at it while I wasin college as well.
And what they do is they bringhigh school college students to
(12:18):
teach middle schoolers the nextyear's material, like a little
preview.
And so in that program, that'swhen I first met Black students
from my neighborhood who were incollege.
And they were telling me storiesabout being in college.
And I was like, oh, it doesn'tseem that bad.
It seems like something I cando.
(12:39):
And so from that little seed,that's when I started realizing,
OK, maybe my mom isn't justtalking out her mind when she's
like, you're going to get a fullride to college because we can't
afford it.
You're smart enough to get it.
And then I would just be like, Idon't know what you're talking
about.
You're just saying words.
But I think when I was able tograft onto that an image and see
(13:00):
myself in that, that's reallywhen I think I started to
imagine.
And I think a lot of studentsjust don't have that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
You're making a very important point.
And before we go any further, Iwant to play one more clip from
your conference speech thataddresses this in a pretty
confronting way for us aseducators.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
You can imagine my confusion when I went to school
and my eighth grade whiteEnglish teacher I asked her, do
you think I should apply to theIB?
And she looked me dead in myeyes and said, Marcus, you're
smart, but no.
(13:43):
I remember at that time, theclass was busy working on
different end-of-the-yearprojects, so we were kind of in
small groups, everybody going attheir own pace.
She stopped the entire class of20-something low-income students
black and Hispanic students, andshe addressed us.
(14:03):
And she said, don't apply forthe IB.
It won't be fun, and you'll missout on all the fun in high
school.
You all like to have fun, right?
You like to have friends andplay sports and go to dances?
Well then, I remember lookingaround the room, seeing looks on
(14:26):
the faces of some of myclassmates, Some were shocked,
others horrified by what shesaid, and they decided then and
there that the IB program wasnot for them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
In education, we say every student can learn, but the
way that adults sometimes limitstudents' potential in the way
that you describe in your speechis horrifying.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yeah, I think my brother has told me He can
remember when there's, like,some kind of college day or
something like that at theirschools.
They'd either come in, like, aYale shirt or, like, a Howard
Law shirt.
Or, like, now they come in,like, a Georgetown thing.
And then their teachers havebeen like, where are y'all
(15:15):
getting these T-shirts, like,this gear from?
My nephews, they rep, like, IvyLeague schools or, like,
competitive schools.
Because, like, I've gone there.
And so, like, I would buy themT-shirts and, like, gear.
And their teachers, some of themjust wouldn't believe.
What do you mean, like, youruncle went to Yale?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
And then they would show them apicture with me at graduation.
(15:37):
And the teachers, like, thislittle black kid actually knows
what he's talking about.
Yeah, they're like, oh, you'reshaving for, like, LSU.
Like, don't you like to playsports?
Because, like, one of them, hedoes.
He's, like, the middle one.
And he was like, yeah, Yale hasall of the sports.
What are you talking about?
Like...
That LSU does.
They have all the sports atYale, too.
(15:59):
Yeah, if you want to do that,you can do that.
You get a four-year educationfor free, and you play ball,
too.
So I know, like, because they'remy nephews, like, they told me.
Like, I know one of them calledme after it happened, and I
remember just telling him.
It was kind of like atwo-for-one, like, uncle thing.
(16:20):
I was like, well, you knowyou're always going to have
haters in life.
And then he started laughing.
But then I got serious and I waslike, but also on the other
hand, you have to remember howyou're seen.
And then I talked to him alittle bit about the double
consciousness that Du Boistalked about back in the 1910s
that black people have, where Iwas like, yes, we know in the
(16:44):
family, we know that you're agood person, you love comedy,
etc., And I was like, but peopledon't see you as that.
You know, they just see you asjust another black kid.
And I was like, so having thisin mind, you always have to,
like, remember the response thatthat triggers.
And I told him, basically, youhave to decide whether or not
(17:05):
you're going to lean into it orfight against it.
And I was like, you know, Imean, somebody questions you,
like, oh, why are you wearingthat shirt?
And I was like, you know, yousay, like, you told him, you're
like, yeah, because my unclewent here.
And it's like, you know, I canbe a legacy at this university.
So, I mean, why would I notshoot for that?
And it's kind of just likebuilding them up, letting them
(17:27):
know that, like, it's kind ofimpossible to stop people from
doubting you.
But what really matters is howyou respond to the doubt.
And so I think he, well, thishappened to all three of them.
But, like, whenever I had thisconversation with them, they
seemed to walk away from anunderstanding that, like,
somebody else's perception ofthem It's not the reality of who
(17:50):
they are, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
It absolutely makes sense, although it's devastating
to hear you talk about it likethat.
I'm just grateful that you, thatkind of uncle and that kind of
role model to your nephews.
You've talked about yourstepbrother Ricky being a role
model like that for you as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, I know when I was about 11, or 12 when he was
in junior and senior year ofhigh school.
And so I saw him in the drovesof IB.
And I just remember asking him,I was like, oh, what are you
doing?
And he would say some smartcomment, like, oh, I'm trying to
make a better life for myself.
(18:31):
But I was like, what are youtalking about?
And then he would be like, oh,you know, if I do good in
school, then I get college paidfor, then that leads to success
professionally.
And so he kind of, like, atfirst it was just the same level
of, okay, sure, that I wouldrespond to my mom when she would
(18:53):
talk about college.
But, like, with him, I couldsee, like, the steps to take.
And he would always tell me,like, he was like, yeah, you
know, it's difficult.
But it's really just, like,discipline.
And I think he, like, broke itdown to where it's, like, you
just got to chip away.
answer like obstacles instead oftrying to jump over them all at
(19:16):
once because i know now he's auh he's a psychiatrist at like a
yale hospital and it's veryinteresting because i remember
he told me point blank when iwas like about to matriculate to
yale he was like i mean ifthey're letting you in i might
as well apply to med school aswell that's cheeky but he always
encouraged me to like aim higherlike it was very interesting i
(19:39):
think because he like He knewhis own limitations at that
point.
But then he was like, you know,you don't have that same fear
because I'm kind of showing youhow to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
Wow.
So, you know, I'm thinking abouta vision for the future.
And what do you feel like weneed to be focusing on in
education today more than ever?
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
I guess the goal should be to teach students to
understand what tools they need.
It's like you teach a studenthow to look for a tool.
You've got to teach them how tocritically think.
And it's like, how do you dothat?
You have to challenge them.
You have to challenge them tounderstand that like they they
(20:35):
have like the ability it's likethey just have to learn how to
unlock it like I think about mynephews for example and like all
of them individually have toldme that like they've been
inspired by like the way thatevery time they talk to me it's
like they learn somethingwithout realizing they're
learning and I think that'sbecause I've been very
(20:58):
intentional in how I interactwith them where it's like, yeah,
on the one hand, I could be yoursilly uncle, but at the same
time, if you have questions,please ask me.
Kind of understanding thatcuriosity has to be channeled.
And I think a lot of schools,it's like they try to do too
(21:20):
much what they try to make upfor societal ills.
And it's like if a kid has amessed up home life, it's like
you telling them to be gritty isnot going to get them to pay
attention in class.
Because they already got to showgrit just to make it here on
time.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Especially like that five o'clock scenario, right?
Now you're telling them to begritty and they've been awake
since five?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Exactly.
And so it's like, that's why Ithink one thing about the future
of education, I really justthink about curiosity being
tapped into.
As long as educators keepfocusing on harnessing the
creativity, then I think we'llsee a lot of progress.
(22:01):
And I think a lot of schoolsmess up when they only push like
four-year degree programsbecause it's like not everybody
wants to wait.
Like some people, they're like,I can't believe you've been in
school all your life.
Like you haven't, because I'mstill in school right now
working on a master's.
And they're like, bro, you'vebeen in school for like 20-some
(22:23):
years.
Like it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that schools can do areally good job of helping
students to find out what theyare interested in and what
they're good at.
And, you know, that doesn'talways necessarily mean going to
a four-year college.
What message do you have forteachers that are really
committed to helping to shapeeducation in a way that benefits
every single student?
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Yeah, so I think one message is to...
remember as an educator kind oflike you have something to offer
I think because I know like I'veseen it be that maybe because
say like at Breakthrough thetype of student who went to
(23:09):
Breakthrough as a teacherusually went to Teach for
America right after it was kindof like a pipeline and so I
remember from my own experiencewith Teach for America teachers
like they're not all createdequally I can remember some
teachers who were there on somelike white savior complex.
And it's like the students whodon't need that resent that
(23:31):
because it's like, I'm notlooking for you to save me.
I'm looking for you to likeimpart to me what you can offer.
And so I always resonated withmy teachers who like they
understood just reality.
They're like, yeah, you know,I'm from Midwest.
I remember specifically actuallymy geography teacher was a white
guy from I think Indiana.
(23:54):
And I had like a very closerelationship with him because he
was just authentically himself.
Like, and I remember all myclassmates too.
We all appreciated him becausehe like brought himself into the
classroom and he didn't try tolike change who he was to make
us comfortable.
He didn't ask us to do the same.
So it was like just a, it was anatmosphere of like honesty.
(24:19):
And so like that enabled us tolike be vulnerable.
to where it's like, I might notknow the answer, but I can still
shoot out a guess.
Cause I know, it was Mr.
Daisy.
It was like, cause he's not, Iremember Mr.
Daisy's not gonna ridicule mefor it.
He's gonna like enrich myunderstanding of it.
Like, cause when I think aboutit, it was like him and then
(24:41):
another teacher I can't rememberwho was just like herself.
And like, it was those teachers,like that, her name was
Swerloff.
She wrote one of myrecommendation letters senior
year for college because iremember like we butted heads
because she was like the firstteacher who was like you're not
as smart as you think likebecause i think uh she graded
(25:02):
one of my essays very harshlyand i was at first i was like
yeah who does she think she isbut then i was like nah she's
right like it made me a muchbetter writer
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
wow
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
teachers who they were just unafraid to just be
just to bring themselves intothe classroom
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
how important is that Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Definitely.
Because, like, as a student, youcan tell, like, because as I,
like, reflect on, like, say,what are my long-term goals for
education in the country, Ithink, like, that's kind of
what's missing.
There's, like, a missing linkbetween student and teacher, and
(25:42):
a lot of it has to do with,like, the lack of authenticity.
While it's like, of course,you've got to be professional as
a teacher, and, like, thestudents also should, like, have
decorum.
Respect that.
Yeah, it's like, it should berespectful.
Like, respectfully beingauthentic to where it's like,
and that too teaches us how tolike, interact in society.
Where it's like, you don't haveto shrink away from who you are.
(26:05):
You just have to understand youcan't do too much.
It's really similar to theoriesabout free speech.
Where it's like, your freespeech ends when another harm
begins.
When another's harm begins, justthat students are not looking to
be saved.
They're looking to be taught.
(26:26):
And if you teach them, you canend up saving them if they even
need that.
Pedagogy at Howard Law wasincredible because it
definitely, it reminded me a lotof my African-American studies
classes where we would learn,this is what the law is.
And then you learn, this is how,is actually applied, like the
(26:51):
way that it affects people.
And then a third question wouldbe like, well, what can change
to make it better for ourcommunities?
Because I think, well, I knowlike Howard's mantra is to like
create a social engineer.
And they say how an attorney iseither a social engineer or a
parasite on society.
And like the difference is theability to utilize the
(27:17):
Constitution to help theircommunity and like the rights
that come with that andprivileges, et cetera.
I know like as a student of likehistory, specifically black
history, you understand thatlike things are very cyclical in
history and like society's arctoo.
(27:38):
And I think that's why I think Iwas very fortunate to go to like
Howard Law School because likeHoward like led the charge in
the previous civil rightsmovement.
And so I think I got to see alot of the original documents
(27:59):
and plans when they were makingdifferent arguments about taking
down Brown versus Board ordesegregation cases and seeing
the briefs that my pastpredecessors who were in my
seats, the same seats as me, Andwhen they were thinking about
(28:20):
dealing with stuff they had todeal with in the 20th century,
and it kind of just gave me, Idon't even want to say hope, but
just kind of solace tounderstand we've been here
before and we know how to getpast it.
And it's like we kind of justgot to keep doing what you're
(28:40):
doing.
So I think through and through,Howard, I just constantly remind
that you're here for a reason.
It's like you chose Howard Lawfor a reason.
And it's like no matter what youdo, you still got to understand
that like you now have like aset of skills to help create a
better reality for the peoplearound you.
(29:03):
In undergrad, it's more like,you know, I'm here trying to
find myself.
Whereas in law school, it's likeI'm here to find myself in the
law.
I'm here to figure out how can Iuse these skills to better
myself and my people.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
You've been listening to the Education by
Design podcast.
I've been your host, Phil Evans.
If you like this episode, pleasehit subscribe or follow and join
us for our next episode.
And until next time, staycurious.
We've been refining the system for decades, but what
if it's time to redesign it?
Not from scratch, but from whatwe know works.
You're listening to Education byDesign.
I'm your host, Phil Evans.
(00:43):
In this episode, I'm speakingwith Marcus Reno.
His story challenges all of usto think differently about
authenticity in the classroomand what's informing choices
that students make as they comeup through their schooling
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
I learned about strength and what it meant to
persevere for my family before Iever faced an educational trial
in school.
My mother remained steadfast,determined to beat the challenge
before her because she knew thestatistics that were stacked
against me.
Being the son of a single motherraised in New Orleans,
(01:23):
Louisiana, in a lowersocioeconomic status.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
That was Marcus speaking at a global education
conference in New Orleans in2019, just after he'd graduated
from Yale University.
I remember that day vividly.
I was standing at the back goesfar beyond his circumstances.
(02:03):
He wants to focus on what theseopportunities have afforded him
and how he can use thoseopportunities to make the world
a better place.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
I graduated in 2019 and then I started a teaching
fellowship at the Oakham Schoolin England.
I was hired as a Yale Fellow, itwas called.
So like every year the schoolwould hire like a senior from
(02:33):
Yale to come and like teach andbe college counselor.
The school, albeit like is in anarea that's 90% white, but they
were very, like they were awareof the fact that we're like, you
know, we're a posh Britishschool.
But at the same time, we try tohave our students like
understand like that the realworld is not like this.
(02:57):
It was interesting being there.
Because that was a completelydifferent shift than anything I
was used to.
I know a lot of teachers, I canjust tell, they didn't expect me
to be who I am.
Because when I heard, yeah,hello, they had one idea.
And then it's like, here I come.
And then I'm completelydifferent than that.
And then I remember when thehousemaster introduced me to the
(03:20):
boys in the house.
He was like, yeah, Mr.
Renaud is the smartest personI've ever met.
And, like, the looks on, like, alot of the kids' faces, they
were just, like...
Like, a lot of the boys, theyhad, like, we had, like, real
talks where they, like, talkedabout how, like, oh, you know,
the Black people I've interactedwith have not been, like,
professionals.
And it's, like, you show methat, like, oh, you know,
(03:42):
there's, like, different typesof people all over.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
It's difficult for me to try and put myself in
Marcus's shoes that everywherehe goes, he has to wait for
people to realize how astute andhow accomplished he is.
That's just something thatpeople like me don't face.
Marcus is obviously regarded forhis accomplishments in
academics, but there's so muchmore to Marcus's intellectual
(04:16):
curiosity.
It's the way that he is patientwith people who are different
from himself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
When I was an undergrad, I majored in
African-American studies andalso education policy.
I did that because the advicethat I got was going into law
school, they just tell you totake things that you're
interested in.
Just for a long time in my life,I've been interested in black
history.
(04:43):
So that's why I choseAfrican-American studies.
But then I didn't realize thatat Yale, it was so
interdisciplinary.
So I got like...
soft skills of classes of likesociology, political science.
I took economics classes,anthropology.
So that kind of really made meunderstand that the connections
(05:05):
even more than I did coming fromhigh school.
So that interest kind of broughtme into wanting to do the law.
Once I got to law school, I knewthat I wanted to do civil rights
law.
And to me, Growing up in NewOrleans, that meant education
and criminal justice.
(05:26):
That is civil rights.
If you can't even read and youdon't have freedom, then you
can't vote.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
And your own human potential is limited and your
ability to connect with otherpeople and from different
experiences too.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yeah, exactly.
The people I met on the rugbyteam were vastly different than
the people who were inAfrican-American studies classes
with me.
But I saw the value in knowingboth of them.
Like, I remember, too, when Iwas on campus in, like, 2015 to
2019.
And so I remember there weretimes where I'd come to
practice, like, the day aftergoing to, like, a protest.
(06:03):
And I'd have my teammates whowould, like, ask me questions.
They're like, yo, what werey'all yelling about?
Like, I didn't understand.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
And,
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
you know, I'd break down the issue.
And then they would be like, oh,I appreciate that you didn't,
like, bite my head off because Iasked the question.
And then I was like, well, youknow, I know deep down you're
actually trying to understand.
There's little stuff like thatwhere it's like I was able to
break down, I guess, like thebarrier that some people saw
because they were like, oh, youknow, it's just like a rich
(06:33):
white kid.
You don't really care about theissue.
And it's like, no, they do.
It's like you just can't belike, oh, you know what it is.
And a lot of people like I'm notgoing to sit here and educate
you.
If you're really trying torecruit people to help you,
you're going to have to do alittle teaching.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
What were some of the educational experiences that
you had that informed thisimportance around seeing things
from different people'sperspectives and engaging with
people who are different fromyourself?
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
I really enjoy TOK.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Let me just quickly explain that.
TOK stands for Theory ofKnowledge.
It's a diploma program coursestudents take to encourage them
to think critically about thenature of knowledge and the
process of knowing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
Those TOK topics came up when I took a class
called Norms and Deviants.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
And under like sociology.
And it was literally talkingabout like what is right or
wrong is based on who is inpower.
And just like stuff like thatkind of just being unafraid to
like question my own, I guess,sensibilities and understanding
that like being able to do thatis how you can have like
cross-cultural communication.
(07:36):
I think high school was thefirst time I really had the
opportunity to like bridgeacross cultures.
Because in my school, like thatcharter was for international
business.
And we had this thing where ourESL, like English second
language program was very strongbecause we had a lot of students
(07:57):
who didn't speak English at all.
And so that was alwaysinteresting to be in like
science class and like yourpartner just doesn't speak
English.
And I was sitting there like,how is he even, how is he
getting instruction?
And somehow he was doing itbecause I remember like he would
answer questions in brokenEnglish.
And I was just like fascinated.
(08:18):
And so I think like being atschool like that, it kind of
pushed you out of your comfortzone.
For sure.
Yeah, in high school was thefirst time I met like somebody
from Russia, people from likedifferent parts of Asia.
Or like I first time I metsomebody from Syria, who was I
think she was actually like arefugee from the Syrian war.
I was able to find commonalitywith people who were from vastly
(08:41):
different experiences and plustwo in the city of New Orleans
itself because our students camefrom all around the city.
And so that kind of preemptedthe way that I went through like
college and the rest of my lifewas always remembering, you
know, it's all right to justnot, not be completely like
somebody, but you can still findsomething in the middle.
(09:05):
And so I think that's why I'vebeen able to like go all the way
to middle England and still feelcomfortable.
You know, I mean, we got thiscommon thing.
We all play rugby.
It's like you're from a farmingvillage in middle England and
I'm from Woolens.
But, you know, we can stillshare a beer together because
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
we're
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
all human beings.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
My extended essay topic ended up being the effects
of educational inequity on themarginalized.
From that research, I began myforay into the world of
education policy.
Like my brother Ricky before me,I received full-ride
scholarships to college, and Ichose to attend Yale University
(09:53):
off the strength of theirAfrican-American studies
department.
Through my research into thehistory of American education,
and more specifically, theassociated inequities, I came to
understand that in this country,race and class were both
interconnected and often anindicator of someone's success
(10:16):
in life.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
I remember how powerful it was to listen to how
you'd taken your high schoolresearch into education
inequality, into your jointundergraduate thesis.
Would you be willing to share alittle bit about the influences
for the topic?
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
It's interesting because my extended essay, I
blew it up more and it became mythesis in undergrad.
And I think my interest in itreally just came from looking
around.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (10:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:55):
Because I know in New Orleans at the time I went,
I think it's still the sametoday, but it's changing a
little bit.
It was And what
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
did you discover?
What do you feel really couldhelp us to understand how to
ensure that there's greaterholistic opportunity for all
students?
SPEAKER_02 (11:33):
I think.
Cause like if you, you can'tconceptualize something and you
can't think to it, to likeattain or reach for it.
And so I know like in my ownlife, I'm first generation
college student, but my, both ofmy parents have like an
associates or a certificate.
(11:54):
So they had like the idea ofschool.
They just didn't have like fouryear degree.
Like they're like, I don'treally know what that looks
like.
And then as a kid, I went tothis enrichment program over the
summer that was calledBreakthrough.
And I taught at it while I wasin college as well.
And what they do is they bringhigh school college students to
(12:18):
teach middle schoolers the nextyear's material, like a little
preview.
And so in that program, that'swhen I first met Black students
from my neighborhood who were incollege.
And they were telling me storiesabout being in college.
And I was like, oh, it doesn'tseem that bad.
It seems like something I cando.
(12:39):
And so from that little seed,that's when I started realizing,
OK, maybe my mom isn't justtalking out her mind when she's
like, you're going to get a fullride to college because we can't
afford it.
You're smart enough to get it.
And then I would just be like, Idon't know what you're talking
about.
You're just saying words.
But I think when I was able tograft onto that an image and see
(13:00):
myself in that, that's reallywhen I think I started to
imagine.
And I think a lot of studentsjust don't have that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
You're making a very important point.
And before we go any further, Iwant to play one more clip from
your conference speech thataddresses this in a pretty
confronting way for us aseducators.
SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
You can imagine my confusion when I went to school
and my eighth grade whiteEnglish teacher I asked her, do
you think I should apply to theIB?
And she looked me dead in myeyes and said, Marcus, you're
smart, but no.
(13:43):
I remember at that time, theclass was busy working on
different end-of-the-yearprojects, so we were kind of in
small groups, everybody going attheir own pace.
She stopped the entire class of20-something low-income students
black and Hispanic students, andshe addressed us.
(14:03):
And she said, don't apply forthe IB.
It won't be fun, and you'll missout on all the fun in high
school.
You all like to have fun, right?
You like to have friends andplay sports and go to dances?
Well then, I remember lookingaround the room, seeing looks on
(14:26):
the faces of some of myclassmates, Some were shocked,
others horrified by what shesaid, and they decided then and
there that the IB program wasnot for them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
In education, we say every student can learn, but the
way that adults sometimes limitstudents' potential in the way
that you describe in your speechis horrifying.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yeah, I think my brother has told me He can
remember when there's, like,some kind of college day or
something like that at theirschools.
They'd either come in, like, aYale shirt or, like, a Howard
Law shirt.
Or, like, now they come in,like, a Georgetown thing.
And then their teachers havebeen like, where are y'all
(15:15):
getting these T-shirts, like,this gear from?
My nephews, they rep, like, IvyLeague schools or, like,
competitive schools.
Because, like, I've gone there.
And so, like, I would buy themT-shirts and, like, gear.
And their teachers, some of themjust wouldn't believe.
What do you mean, like, youruncle went to Yale?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
And then they would show them apicture with me at graduation.
(15:37):
And the teachers, like, thislittle black kid actually knows
what he's talking about.
Yeah, they're like, oh, you'reshaving for, like, LSU.
Like, don't you like to playsports?
Because, like, one of them, hedoes.
He's, like, the middle one.
And he was like, yeah, Yale hasall of the sports.
What are you talking about?
Like...
That LSU does.
They have all the sports atYale, too.
(15:59):
Yeah, if you want to do that,you can do that.
You get a four-year educationfor free, and you play ball,
too.
So I know, like, because they'remy nephews, like, they told me.
Like, I know one of them calledme after it happened, and I
remember just telling him.
It was kind of like atwo-for-one, like, uncle thing.
(16:20):
I was like, well, you knowyou're always going to have
haters in life.
And then he started laughing.
But then I got serious and I waslike, but also on the other
hand, you have to remember howyou're seen.
And then I talked to him alittle bit about the double
consciousness that Du Boistalked about back in the 1910s
that black people have, where Iwas like, yes, we know in the
(16:44):
family, we know that you're agood person, you love comedy,
etc., And I was like, but peopledon't see you as that.
You know, they just see you asjust another black kid.
And I was like, so having thisin mind, you always have to,
like, remember the response thatthat triggers.
And I told him, basically, youhave to decide whether or not
(17:05):
you're going to lean into it orfight against it.
And I was like, you know, Imean, somebody questions you,
like, oh, why are you wearingthat shirt?
And I was like, you know, yousay, like, you told him, you're
like, yeah, because my unclewent here.
And it's like, you know, I canbe a legacy at this university.
So, I mean, why would I notshoot for that?
And it's kind of just likebuilding them up, letting them
(17:27):
know that, like, it's kind ofimpossible to stop people from
doubting you.
But what really matters is howyou respond to the doubt.
And so I think he, well, thishappened to all three of them.
But, like, whenever I had thisconversation with them, they
seemed to walk away from anunderstanding that, like,
somebody else's perception ofthem It's not the reality of who
(17:50):
they are, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
It absolutely makes sense, although it's devastating
to hear you talk about it likethat.
I'm just grateful that you, thatkind of uncle and that kind of
role model to your nephews.
You've talked about yourstepbrother Ricky being a role
model like that for you as well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
Yeah, I know when I was about 11, or 12 when he was
in junior and senior year ofhigh school.
And so I saw him in the drovesof IB.
And I just remember asking him,I was like, oh, what are you
doing?
And he would say some smartcomment, like, oh, I'm trying to
make a better life for myself.
(18:31):
But I was like, what are youtalking about?
And then he would be like, oh,you know, if I do good in
school, then I get college paidfor, then that leads to success
professionally.
And so he kind of, like, atfirst it was just the same level
of, okay, sure, that I wouldrespond to my mom when she would
(18:53):
talk about college.
But, like, with him, I couldsee, like, the steps to take.
And he would always tell me,like, he was like, yeah, you
know, it's difficult.
But it's really just, like,discipline.
And I think he, like, broke itdown to where it's, like, you
just got to chip away.
answer like obstacles instead oftrying to jump over them all at
(19:16):
once because i know now he's auh he's a psychiatrist at like a
yale hospital and it's veryinteresting because i remember
he told me point blank when iwas like about to matriculate to
yale he was like i mean ifthey're letting you in i might
as well apply to med school aswell that's cheeky but he always
encouraged me to like aim higherlike it was very interesting i
(19:39):
think because he like He knewhis own limitations at that
point.
But then he was like, you know,you don't have that same fear
because I'm kind of showing youhow to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
Wow.
So, you know, I'm thinking abouta vision for the future.
And what do you feel like weneed to be focusing on in
education today more than ever?
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
I guess the goal should be to teach students to
understand what tools they need.
It's like you teach a studenthow to look for a tool.
You've got to teach them how tocritically think.
And it's like, how do you dothat?
You have to challenge them.
You have to challenge them tounderstand that like they they
(20:35):
have like the ability it's likethey just have to learn how to
unlock it like I think about mynephews for example and like all
of them individually have toldme that like they've been
inspired by like the way thatevery time they talk to me it's
like they learn somethingwithout realizing they're
learning and I think that'sbecause I've been very
(20:58):
intentional in how I interactwith them where it's like, yeah,
on the one hand, I could be yoursilly uncle, but at the same
time, if you have questions,please ask me.
Kind of understanding thatcuriosity has to be channeled.
And I think a lot of schools,it's like they try to do too
(21:20):
much what they try to make upfor societal ills.
And it's like if a kid has amessed up home life, it's like
you telling them to be gritty isnot going to get them to pay
attention in class.
Because they already got to showgrit just to make it here on
time.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
Especially like that five o'clock scenario, right?
Now you're telling them to begritty and they've been awake
since five?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Exactly.
And so it's like, that's why Ithink one thing about the future
of education, I really justthink about curiosity being
tapped into.
As long as educators keepfocusing on harnessing the
creativity, then I think we'llsee a lot of progress.
(22:01):
And I think a lot of schoolsmess up when they only push like
four-year degree programsbecause it's like not everybody
wants to wait.
Like some people, they're like,I can't believe you've been in
school all your life.
Like you haven't, because I'mstill in school right now
working on a master's.
And they're like, bro, you'vebeen in school for like 20-some
(22:23):
years.
Like it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that schools can do areally good job of helping
students to find out what theyare interested in and what
they're good at.
And, you know, that doesn'talways necessarily mean going to
a four-year college.
What message do you have forteachers that are really
committed to helping to shapeeducation in a way that benefits
every single student?
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Yeah, so I think one message is to...
remember as an educator kind oflike you have something to offer
I think because I know like I'veseen it be that maybe because
say like at Breakthrough thetype of student who went to
(23:09):
Breakthrough as a teacherusually went to Teach for
America right after it was kindof like a pipeline and so I
remember from my own experiencewith Teach for America teachers
like they're not all createdequally I can remember some
teachers who were there on somelike white savior complex.
And it's like the students whodon't need that resent that
(23:31):
because it's like, I'm notlooking for you to save me.
I'm looking for you to likeimpart to me what you can offer.
And so I always resonated withmy teachers who like they
understood just reality.
They're like, yeah, you know,I'm from Midwest.
I remember specifically actuallymy geography teacher was a white
guy from I think Indiana.
(23:54):
And I had like a very closerelationship with him because he
was just authentically himself.
Like, and I remember all myclassmates too.
We all appreciated him becausehe like brought himself into the
classroom and he didn't try tolike change who he was to make
us comfortable.
He didn't ask us to do the same.
So it was like just a, it was anatmosphere of like honesty.
(24:19):
And so like that enabled us tolike be vulnerable.
to where it's like, I might notknow the answer, but I can still
shoot out a guess.
Cause I know, it was Mr.
Daisy.
It was like, cause he's not, Iremember Mr.
Daisy's not gonna ridicule mefor it.
He's gonna like enrich myunderstanding of it.
Like, cause when I think aboutit, it was like him and then
(24:41):
another teacher I can't rememberwho was just like herself.
And like, it was those teachers,like that, her name was
Swerloff.
She wrote one of myrecommendation letters senior
year for college because iremember like we butted heads
because she was like the firstteacher who was like you're not
as smart as you think likebecause i think uh she graded
(25:02):
one of my essays very harshlyand i was at first i was like
yeah who does she think she isbut then i was like nah she's
right like it made me a muchbetter writer
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
wow
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
teachers who they were just unafraid to just be
just to bring themselves intothe classroom
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
how important is that Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Definitely.
Because, like, as a student, youcan tell, like, because as I,
like, reflect on, like, say,what are my long-term goals for
education in the country, Ithink, like, that's kind of
what's missing.
There's, like, a missing linkbetween student and teacher, and
(25:42):
a lot of it has to do with,like, the lack of authenticity.
While it's like, of course,you've got to be professional as
a teacher, and, like, thestudents also should, like, have
decorum.
Respect that.
Yeah, it's like, it should berespectful.
Like, respectfully beingauthentic to where it's like,
and that too teaches us how tolike, interact in society.
Where it's like, you don't haveto shrink away from who you are.
(26:05):
You just have to understand youcan't do too much.
It's really similar to theoriesabout free speech.
Where it's like, your freespeech ends when another harm
begins.
When another's harm begins, justthat students are not looking to
be saved.
They're looking to be taught.
(26:26):
And if you teach them, you canend up saving them if they even
need that.
Pedagogy at Howard Law wasincredible because it
definitely, it reminded me a lotof my African-American studies
classes where we would learn,this is what the law is.
And then you learn, this is how,is actually applied, like the
(26:51):
way that it affects people.
And then a third question wouldbe like, well, what can change
to make it better for ourcommunities?
Because I think, well, I knowlike Howard's mantra is to like
create a social engineer.
And they say how an attorney iseither a social engineer or a
parasite on society.
And like the difference is theability to utilize the
(27:17):
Constitution to help theircommunity and like the rights
that come with that andprivileges, et cetera.
I know like as a student of likehistory, specifically black
history, you understand thatlike things are very cyclical in
history and like society's arctoo.
(27:38):
And I think that's why I think Iwas very fortunate to go to like
Howard Law School because likeHoward like led the charge in
the previous civil rightsmovement.
And so I think I got to see alot of the original documents
(27:59):
and plans when they were makingdifferent arguments about taking
down Brown versus Board ordesegregation cases and seeing
the briefs that my pastpredecessors who were in my
seats, the same seats as me, Andwhen they were thinking about
(28:20):
dealing with stuff they had todeal with in the 20th century,
and it kind of just gave me, Idon't even want to say hope, but
just kind of solace tounderstand we've been here
before and we know how to getpast it.
And it's like we kind of justgot to keep doing what you're
(28:40):
doing.
So I think through and through,Howard, I just constantly remind
that you're here for a reason.
It's like you chose Howard Lawfor a reason.
And it's like no matter what youdo, you still got to understand
that like you now have like aset of skills to help create a
better reality for the peoplearound you.
(29:03):
In undergrad, it's more like,you know, I'm here trying to
find myself.
Whereas in law school, it's likeI'm here to find myself in the
law.
I'm here to figure out how can Iuse these skills to better
myself and my people.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
You've been listening to the Education by
Design podcast.
I've been your host, Phil Evans.
If you like this episode, pleasehit subscribe or follow and join
us for our next episode.
And until next time, staycurious.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!