June 16, 2025 • 34 mins
What does it take to shift a school system from standardization to innovation? In this thought-provoking episode of Education by Design, host Phil Evans is joined by Dr. Jared DuPree for a conversation that challenges the boundaries of what public education can be.
Together, they explore the promise of challenge-based learning—an approach that connects students with real-world problems and invites them to design solutions through collaboration, creativity, and purpose. Dr. DuPree shares insights from his journey as a classroom teacher, district leader, and now national director for one of the most forward-thinking education initiatives in the country. At the heart of this conversation is a question that matters to every school leader, policymaker, and parent: Are we preparing students to navigate the world—or to change it?
This episode is part one of a special two-part series on education models that foster deep, authentic learning in a rapidly evolving world.
About the Founders: Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre
This bold educational vision was sparked by legendary music producer Jimmy Iovine and hip-hop icon and entrepreneur Andre Young, better known as Dr. Dre. Their combined success in music, business, and cultural innovation led them to a realization: future-ready creators need to think beyond silos. They need to speak the shared language of design, technology, and entrepreneurship. And they need to learn it young.
The Iovine and Young Center: Bringing Innovation to Public Schools
Founded as an extension of the Iovine and Young Academy at the University of Southern California, the Iovine and Young Center (IYC) brings this revolutionary approach to high school students—particularly those from underserved communities. The IYC model blends challenge-based learning, design thinking, and integrated technology education to transform how students engage with the world. With active programs in Los Angeles and Atlanta, and expansions underway, the IYC is redefining what public education can look like when innovation meets equity.
Follow the EduByDesign Blog to explore the podcast topics, further.
And please let Phil know what resonates with you, in the comments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
We've been refining the system for decades, but what
if it's time to redesign it?
Not from scratch, but from whatwe know works.
You're listening to Education byDesign.
I'm your host, Phil Evans.
(00:43):
What if school wasn't about whatstudents must know, but about
what they need to figure out?
What if education didn't startwith standards and end with
grades, but began with a problemworth solving or more, a
challenge?
In this two-part series, we'reexploring a fundamental shift,
one that moves us away fromcompliance and into complexity,
(01:06):
from content coverage tochallenge-based learning.
In this model, Learning is notabstract or siloed.
It's connected, it'scollaborative, and it's
creative.
It invites students to grapplewith the real problems of our
time and to see themselves ascapable of making an impact.
These models are nottheoretical.
(01:26):
They're happening now.
At the Iveen and Young Center inLos Angeles and Atlanta, both
her school students workalongside entrepreneurs,
engineers, artists, businessesto solve real-world challenges.
The structure is not a departurefrom academic rigor.
It's an evolution of it.
Rather than just meetingstandards, they're designing
(01:46):
solutions.
And yet here's the tension.
Many schools are stillstructured to meet mandates that
are miles away from the worldstudents will inherit.
Teachers who want to innovateare often caught between
contradictory demands, teach thetest, and prepare students for
life.
The two are not always the same.
(02:07):
This is where transformationmeets resistance.
Dr.
Jared Dupre understands thisdeeply.
He studied mathematics at boththe undergraduate and graduate
levels and began his career as aclassroom teacher.
He held senior roles incurriculum and instruction
across Los Angeles UnifiedSchool District and now leads
national expansion of the Iveenand Young Center.
(02:29):
And through all of this, hispassions remain steadfast,
creating the conditions wherestudents and teachers can do
meaningful, relevant,future-facing work.
The IYC model, wasn't designedto check boxes.
It grew out of a need observedfirsthand by Jimmy Iovine and
Dr.
Dre when building theirbusiness.
(02:50):
They realized that the creative,technical, and strategic minds
they gathered weren't speakingthe same language.
So they imagined a school thatwould teach young people not
just content, but how to workacross disciplines to prototype
ideas and to shape the futurerather than merely preparing for
it.
In today's conversation, Jaredhelps us understand how such
(03:11):
models work, why it matters, andwhat it takes to bring it to
life, especially in systemsbuilt to do the opposite.
Because this isn't about oneschool or one program, it's
about a question every leader ineducation must eventually face.
Are we preparing students tosucceed in the systems as they
(03:31):
are, or are we preparingstudents to change them?
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
I love this work.
It's been a great opportunity toreally think about Education in
an innovative way, really tryingto make it more responsive to
students, more responsive tofamilies, and not only that,
more responsive to the communityas well.
We often ask community partnersto come in and be a part of
this, and then we don't reallyhave a meaningful place for them
to really latch on and do goodwork.
(03:55):
It's been a lot of learningexperience for me, a huge
career, but one I'm trulyappreciative of.
SPEAKER_04 (04:00):
And it's a journey that started back in the
classrooms, right, Jared?
SPEAKER_03 (04:03):
Yeah, so I left the classroom back in 2005, 2006,
somewhere in there, I was amathematics coach at the
district level for many, manyyears.
After that, I was a principal atthree different high schools in
Los Angeles Unified SchoolDistrict, South Atlanta, Magnus
Schools, a whole range ofdifferent types of schools where
(04:25):
I was a principal.
After that, superintendent askedme if I wanted to oversee
instruction for K through 12.
After that, the largesuperintendent asked me if I
wanted to be a part of hiscabinet working in the
superintendent's office.
And of course, that's an offeryou don't say no to.
So I was in the superintendent'soffice for about three years
overseeing many things, one ofthem being the Black Student
(04:46):
Achievement Plan, the other oneworking with the Magnets Program
to create magnet schools.
That was where I came across theIovine and Young Center.
At the time, Jimmy Iovine andDr.
Dre presented their proposal tothe superintendent, Austin
Buechner, at the time.
And he was like, yes, Jared,this is you.
Take it.
Let's lift it.
Let's work it.
And that was four years ago.
(05:08):
Three years ago, we opened thedoors, Philip, to the Ivan and
Young Center in L.A.
Two years ago, I left thedistrict and Jimmy and Dre asked
me if I wanted to come apart, bea part of their team to continue
to scale their work across thenation.
So that's another opportunityyou're not going to say no to.
SPEAKER_04 (05:24):
Certainly not.
You know, I remember you talkingat the South by Southwest
conference on a panel and justtalking about how often we bring
community members into theschool setting to get involved,
but But then, you know, otherthan the feel good aspect of
their involvement, there isn'talways a direct kind of line
back to how the learning andteaching really pays back to the
(05:49):
innovation that we want to seein industry.
And I love that yoursupervisors, like this is you
all over it, like, you know,setting other people up to get
into their lane and to flourishin a way that breaks barriers.
some of the traditions as wellis key, isn't it?
That's what it's going to taketo move teachers in this
direction, right?
To empower them.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
Yeah.
We need, I don't know.
It's this concept of criticalmass, Philip.
Like when can we strike criticalmass?
We have more people coming onboard, acknowledging, yes, that
education has not reallyfulfilled its true promise for
the masses.
It has not.
And we are all aware of that.
But yet we keep looking at thedata, Philip.
You know, oh, we keep looking atthe data, being dismayed and
(06:31):
shaking our heads.
And that's where it ends.
At what point do we havecritical mass?
We're going to say collectively,we're going to move in a
concerted manner in a differentdirection that serves a much
more larger population ofstudents.
That's yet to be seen.
SPEAKER_04 (06:44):
Right.
And I think it's a practice.
I think it's a mind shiftbecause we've tried reinventing
the wheel with new curriculum.
And often the new curriculum ispurchased.
There's not enough time forteachers to engage in it and to
learn it and to innovate withit.
There's no professionallearning.
There's no community.
Often the assessments are nottied to the curriculum.
So then we don't get any databack.
(07:06):
And then teachers are sort ofdisenfranchised going, well,
what's the point in investing?
They're going to change it inthree years anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Right.
What you just described, Philip,is the educational cycle It's
SPEAKER_04 (07:14):
Groundhog Day.
SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
Right, right.
Kids are
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
still not achieving.
Let's change the curriculumagain.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Right, because that's the fix.
SPEAKER_04 (07:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:21):
The curriculum, it should be the students.
The curriculum is the students.
The curriculum should be theworld that we're looking at,
contemporary times, right?
Combining those two, yourcurriculum needs to be
responsive.
It needs to pivot.
It needs to be flexible.
It needs to be nimble.
And it hasn't been.
Our curriculum here in America,specifically LA, has probably
much been the way it has beenfor the last 50, 60 years,
(07:42):
right?
Which blows my mind.
You know that, Philip.
Things are completely differentoutside these windows as they
were 2025 versus 1940.
But yet our curriculum is verysimilar.
It makes no sense.
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
And even these transactions, right?
We're so focused on, you know,K-12 is so focused on where kids
are going to go to college.
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:02):
And like, so you're looking at a piece of paper that
gives you a sort of a credit ora currency for a moment in your
experience, not to devaluehigher education.
But what about the flourishingthat happens after graduation
What about the fact that I knowthat what I'm learning I can
leverage and to apply?
Yes.
So, I mean, we touched on thecurriculum piece.
Just before we move on to someof the good stuff, what are some
(08:24):
of the other aspects of theproblem that you think that
you're addressing with the IYC?
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Well, I think one of the main things is tapping into
student motivation.
I'm a firm believer, you know,there's a law, compulsory
education.
That's a federal law.
But there is no way that you cancompel kids to learn.
Like if you think about thatstatement at its fundamental
level, there's no such thing ascompulsory education.
like kids must be motivated tolearn they must be engaged it
must speak to them so one of themajor hallmarks of our work
(08:51):
philip is really tapping intostudent motivation really
tapping into students passionstudents interests things that
they want to do and framing thecurriculum framing the the
interactions and thepartnerships around that
motivation is key to really umto activate learning in a
meaningful way um so that's onething the other thing that i
really appreciate is theoutreach to so many community
(09:12):
partners for-profit non So whydon't we extend your reach, your
community reach to the actualwalls of the classroom?
I mean, of course, leveragingJimmy and Dre's star power to
bring in as much capital andresources.
And not only that, they'reshining a light on education,
(09:33):
period.
what education has done well andalso things that they can do
differently to make sure it'smore in tune with the emerging
needs of the 21st century.
We like to talk about that,Phil, but no one is really
making sure there's a matchbetween what students are
learning K through 12 in thisnew world that they're going to
be a part of once they get thatdiploma and walk across that
stage.
Welcome to reality, right?
SPEAKER_04 (09:54):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (09:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:03):
So I think it's incredible that two of the
world's most innovative musicproducers would get involved in
education.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how that all came to be?
SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
Yeah, so, and this is, I mean, I appreciate many
things about Jimmy and Dre.
Like they didn't have to, likethey are comfortable, they could
be fine with the rest of theirlives, but they see that there
is a need.
The major motivation was whenthey were trying to create
beats, right?
And they went to differentsectors, different industry
partners and said, hey, we needall these people to come
together to help us brainstormto be creative, to innovate, to
(10:35):
think about this new tool.
And everyone came and everyonewas excited and ready to work,
Phillip, but everyone was notspeaking the same language.
So the Ivan and Young Academy atthe University of Southern
California was born out of theneed to really think about a
more integrated way for thedifferent silo professions to
learn about each other and tospeak to each other.
When IYA was created back in2010, I want to say, um, Yeah,
(11:01):
so that was the premise for thatcreation, and then over the last
13 years, the school has beenreally successful, proof of
concept, many graduates comingout, not just being
entrepreneurs, but also beingable to find their niche, their
place, and what they want to do.
Now, Jimmy and Dre said, hey,there's success here at the
university level.
It's not some secret formula.
Perhaps we can begin to sharethis information and this
(11:23):
knowledge at the high schoollevel, and so that's where this
came about, really thinkingabout how can we get high
schoolers thinking about thismore integrated, this more range
way of thinking and not be sosiloed and so pigeonhole where
I'm just going to be anengineer, I'm just going to be
an architect, or I'm just goingto be a doctor.
But to have a more of aninvolved way, a more integrated
way of thinking across manysectors is beneficial.
(11:46):
So they started this work at thehigh school level, of course,
not to the same degree ofsophistication at the university
level, but at the high schoollevel.
And in turn, Philip, we want todip down to middle school and
elementary as well.
It's just a way of thinking, away of thinking about life from
a professional standpoint andnot waiting until you become a
professional to think aboutprofessional skills that are
(12:07):
coveted.
SPEAKER_04 (12:07):
And Jared, that's key because, you know, so many
academically prepared studentsstill have to wait until they
get into the workforce todiscover those skills they truly
need, you know, and it's atransdisciplinary and
interdisciplinary world thatwe're living in.
And I just don't think thateducational systems have evolved
that way.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Right, right.
We're in a funky space rightnow.
You know that.
Like all these new jobs arepopping off, all these new ways
of thinking, right?
All these paradigm shifts, butyet we really aren't preparing
students to be a part of thatagile, pivotal way of thinking
that's super fluid, that changesevery month.
You have to be nimble.
You have to think in a creativeway.
You have to be innovative.
(12:44):
to stay on deck with the waythings are moving right now here
in America and across the world.
SPEAKER_04 (12:50):
And now we're all very interested in how AI is
going to shape education andpotentially replace the type of
teaching and learning that thetraditional schooling has
continued to sort of staygrounded in.
You guys have designed someinnovation standards, haven't
you, or some criterion?
SPEAKER_03 (13:08):
Yeah, the innovation framework.
So a lot of districts haveteaching and learning framework
that outlines standards foraround pedagogy, curriculum
design, culture, professionalexpectations.
We designed an innovationframework that outlined
standards around similarbuckets, one being innovation in
instruction, innovation in theactual curriculum design,
innovation in the culture andthe mindset, right?
(13:31):
We don't want you to just teachwell.
We don't want you to just designsound curriculum.
We want you to have a mindset, away of acting, a way of being.
And then also a framework aroundhow to really bring in community
partners to be a part of theschool system in a meaningful
way.
In fact, we think about thedesign thinking cycle and the
innovation cycle.
So our framework itself, Philip,is still a prototype itself.
(13:52):
So it's still being refined andstill being improved.
But that's basically the core ofour framework,
SPEAKER_04 (13:57):
those four elements.
What are you telling me?
That you're actually applyingthe innovation design cycle to
learn what to do in education?
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Right.
Through multiple iterations.
Who would think that that wouldbe?
SPEAKER_04 (14:08):
And you're empathizing?
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Right, right.
Who would think?
SPEAKER_04 (14:12):
Groundbreaking stuff in education.
But it is.
Unfortunately, it is.
SPEAKER_03 (14:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:16):
Yeah.
And this is where the dream ofscaling this and having
influence in the world ofeducation could really come true
for, I guess, for folks likeJimmy and Dre.
Yeah.
There's just such a hunger tochange the practice and to
really dig deeper intolearning-focused pedagogies and
to ensure we're creatingcollaborative space for teachers
(14:37):
to really experiment with theirpractice.
John Spencer talks aboutteaching in beta or playing the
new teacher card He had ateaching card on his desk that
was given to him by his mentorteacher in practicum that says
expires never.
Isn't that great?
SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
Yeah, I like that idea.
The classroom as an experiment,right?
Which should be because yourstudents, right, that's your
sample set right there andyou're learning from them.
And based on how they'reresponding, you're designing new
learning experiences to helpthem learn.
Actually, yeah, I like thatconcept.
UNKNOWN (15:13):
Music
SPEAKER_04 (15:25):
So what I understand about what you're doing is it's
not project-based learning, it'snot problem-based learning, it's
challenge-based learning.
So let's dive a little deeperinto the innovative curriculum
that you've developed and whatit looks like for students in
Atlanta, in an LA USDcurriculum.
SPEAKER_03 (15:41):
So we started in LA.
Atlanta just finished its firstyear this year.
Next year, fall 25, Miami willopen its doors.
Englewood, right close to LosAngeles, will open.
And we also have a coupleschools that will be a part of
our cohort three.
But the primary premise, thereare several pillars of our
curriculum across all fourdifferent cities and four
(16:01):
different sites, is thechallenge-based learning
framework, where we bring in apartner and we say, hey, you are
grappling with this real problemthat your team are grappling on
and dealing with, allow ourstudents an opportunity to take
a look at your actual problem,not one that's synthetic, not
one that you just created for anexperiment, an actual problem
that your team is grapplingwith.
(16:22):
So we designed that.
Once we have that, though,Philip, the true work is really
trying to integrate And I'mgoing to use this word.
We're going to try to integratethese archaic standards.
And I'm going to say that thesearchaic standards that exist in
most public school districts, weintegrate that into the CBL
experience.
Not only that, we have ourchallenge-based learning prompt
(16:44):
and activity extend acrossmultiple classrooms, multiple
disciplines.
So it does not just end inEnglish, Philip, science.
It doesn't end in history.
It doesn't end in math.
Students see it throughout theirday for the balance of the unit.
So
SPEAKER_04 (16:58):
they think that's where they're starting to train
their minds to think about itfrom different perspectives,
from different disciplines.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
idea through iteration or actually no not
iteration ideation first likeyou ideate just free-flowing
brainstorming from there youbuild your prototype and then
from there you give iterativefeedback to continue to refine
your prototype um that designthinking cycled understanding
technology we teach students theskills and tools of how to use
(17:49):
technology but not only thatPhilip it's more than just how
to use technology it's also howto generate new technology
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
yeah I
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
want our students to be the passive users of
technology that others havecreated.
That's cool.
We also want you to put yourselfon the other end of that and see
yourself as the innovator, seeyourself as the generator of the
technology and not just theuser.
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
That's the entrepreneurship aspect of
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
it.
Right.
That and the entrepreneur aspectof the business.
How do we know that yourbusiness plan is viable?
How do we know it's sustainable?
How do we know that it's goingto speak to the audience that
you're serving?
Did you do any type of empathyoutreach to determine if you're
walking down the right road forthis particular user set?
That, once again, The backdropbeing the traditional state and
(18:34):
national standards that we mustteach.
Right.
All the things we're talkingabout, Phil, here are fun.
They're exciting.
They're creative.
But there is a big but.
We can't move away from statestandards and public education,
so we must find a way to teachthem through this vehicle of a
more authentic way to understandschooling and the place for
which schooling is supposed toprepare students for the real
(18:55):
world.
SPEAKER_04 (18:55):
Yeah, see, but this is where I feel like
collaborative innovation getsstuck because we need to really
reimagine the system.
I think that if we'reintegrating the standards,
because the standards are therefor a reason, how are we also
able to kind of demonstrate thatthe skills are being developed
as we maybe rather than tryingto serve multiple different sets
of standards or requirements,could we focus on the approach
(19:21):
that is actually raising theexpectations and the outcomes
for students?
Because what students experienceand what they produce as a
result of a challenge-basedcurriculum is really
outstanding.
What are some of the things thatstudents are producing as a
result of the opportunities theIYC is presenting to them in
their learning?
Have any of the students beenable to scale what they've
(19:41):
produced for Yeah, so I'msmiling at
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
your questions because I love them.
So, right, right.
So, so not yet.
We have one potentially, though,in Atlanta.
A student was exploring sometype of solution to some type of
agriculture, ground.
Water device.
And, you know, here in Atlantaagriculture here across Georgia,
Atlanta's agriculture is huge.
(20:06):
This particular studentdeveloped some type of coal
device that was able to bring inmore water.
I don't want to misspeak forwhatever the project was, but it
was some type of coal device.
Anyway, we have severalcompanies that are interested in
that idea.
So this brings us to a newpoint.
Like, what do we do now?
Because Philip didn't reallythink
SPEAKER_04 (20:29):
about,
SPEAKER_03 (20:34):
hey, what happens
SPEAKER_04 (20:38):
if
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
a student has a groundbreaking idea?
Right now, if a student issaying, hey, I have this great
idea that could be patented,then we're not giving that to
company X.
Right.
And so to answer your question,no, but we are knocking on the
door of that.
We're knocking on the door ofcompanies and other
(21:08):
organizations and also people,venture capitalists who want to
invest, seeing some of theseideas and wanting to lift them
and take them to light, whichalso shows us the more work we
need to do to highlight thestudent projects, to highlight
their solutions, not just tocapture it in some capstone
project where the company getsto see it, but also just
amplifying it nationally.
(21:30):
We need to do a better job ofthat.
So to answer your question onceagain, current answer is no, but
if you ask me that in a month,that answer I'm going to say
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
could be yes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
Right.
It's going to be a yes.
But we need to be careful abouthow we practice that and the
road we walk on.
SPEAKER_04 (21:52):
I love the way that you come at that.
I also think a little bit aboutthe social and emotional aspect
of that, of a young person whohas worked within what is kind
of like it's compulsoryschooling.
and come up with an idea thatcould actually set you on track
to be, you know, a multi-millionair you know very early how do
(22:14):
we sort of protect studentsaround what it means to people
work their entire lives you knowthink about Dre and you know
Jimmy have worked they startedoff like Jimmy was sweeping the
floors I think in a radio in arecording studio at one point
you know to become you know sucha leader in the world in pop
culture I think about him assomebody who's defined pop
culture by the way like if youthink about Eminem Lady Gaga
(22:36):
like
SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
I mean I mean solo But it's
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
just incredibly inspiring that two really
renowned, you know, musicproducers, innovators in the
industry are now investing inyoung people.
And I think my question wasreally, you know, to, you know,
from the, you know, it takes along time to, you know, figure
out how to have success in afield and to be able to provide
(23:02):
a type of education wherestudents are able to grapple
with that.
You know, we're leaving, youknow, we're leaving school.
out of the gate with just moreinsight into what we could
potentially do.
And I think that's incredible.
So, you know, my question wasreally about how do we support
those students and, you know,what I love about the humility
in which that you guys at IYCare coming at this is it's very
(23:23):
much a work in progress andwe've got these things, you
know, in mind as we're movingforward.
Maybe there isn't sort of ananswer to that question.
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
Your questions are great though.
And these are things that we aregrappling with and things that
we're thinking about how toimprove and do things better.
We're We're a startup, so we'relearning as we go.
We're building as we go.
So I love your questions.
SPEAKER_04 (23:43):
Yeah.
No, I just appreciate the– theshift, you know, that we're
making in education, that we cansort of create new proof points
around what students experiencewhen they go to school.
And I think of all the studentsthat I've watched cross the
stage and some of the ones thatreally struggled just to pass
the basic standards of learningtest.
And, you know, in many ways, Ifeel like I've failed them, you
(24:07):
know, because they've gone outvery, very underprepared for the
world that we're in.
SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
I hear you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:13):
Yeah.
Maybe we should talk a littlebit about teachers.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout the professional learning
curve and what you guys aredoing to support teachers
through this?
SPEAKER_03 (24:23):
So the professional learning curve is a big one,
Philip.
In fact, I just facilitated PDfor our Englewood teachers on
Friday.
It was their first exposure tochallenge-based learning, their
first exposure to designthinking.
And it's going to take a lot.
What I had to do was I had tocome off of the PD that I had
planned for them, Philip,because this is a shock to their
(24:44):
system, Philip.
This is not the way that they'vebeen teaching for years and
decades.
This is not the way that theywent to their teacher education
program and said, hey, build outthese units with all these
standards, with these differentsyntax.
This is not it.
SPEAKER_04 (24:57):
And it's not how they were taught in school.
SPEAKER_03 (24:59):
Right, right.
And it's not how they weretaught in school.
It's not what theiradministrators are telling them
is valuable.
It's
SPEAKER_04 (25:05):
not what the standard
SPEAKER_03 (25:06):
goes back to the standard.
So it's been a challenge really.
helping them understand that,hey, you can help students make
progress towards these standardsin a different way than what
you're currently doing.
Like direct instruction is thedefault mode of teaching for
most teachers.
They feel that you must modeland think about this, Phil.
They think that you must modelthings before students can do.
(25:27):
I want to pause after that tothink about the damage you're
setting kids up for.
SPEAKER_04 (25:31):
And what if the model isn't a good model?
It's like I'm standing in frontof my students saying, try and
just do something a little bitbetter
SPEAKER_03 (25:37):
than this.
Right, right, right.
You're showing them a modelthat's flawed.
But you're setting them up to betethered to somebody for the
rest of their lives.
Whenever something new comestheir way, they're going to be,
where's the model?
Where's the model?
So it's been hard with teachershelping them shift their
pedagogy from a more directinstruction model to a more
inquiry-based student modelwhere students are developing
(25:58):
conjectures and testing them.
They're developing hypothesesand they're testing them and you
providing the space for them tofail and to improve on their
failures and continue thatcycle.
The major thing, though,Phillip, is getting teachers
through that first year untilyou have proof of concept, which
we have in Atlanta and we havein LA.
In Englewood, we don't.
Once they see proof of concept,not just in hard quantitative
(26:19):
data, but also qualitative data,when students are coming to
school, they're happy to be inyour classroom.
There's joy, right?
Right?
And once they see that, Phillip,then the next year of PD is much
easier.
The first year, though, isextremely challenging trying to
undo the hard wiring that hastaken place for teachers
throughout their entire career.
That's a challenge.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
You know, I encounter this with my work too.
And I think what it takes isempathy.
Like we need to be reminded thatteachers have experienced a lot
of change and a lot ofprofessional development comes
along under the guise ofinnovation.
And we're going to do somethingnew.
And yet, you know, we then leavethe teachers to their own
devices.
SPEAKER_03 (27:00):
Oh, this is the other piece.
And you touched upon it briefly,Philip.
Right now, I think one of themajor pitfalls in education
around professional developmentfor teachers is they come to the
PD and things are handed tothem.
Right.
Here are some tools.
Right.
Here are some strategies.
Here's some curriculum.
Go use it.
We'll talk to you about it, butgo use it.
(27:22):
Like there is no true valuethere.
Right.
I think one of the great thingswe're doing is we bring teachers
in on the ground to build thecurriculum with us.
You are building it.
Oftentimes, teachers will say,well, let me have Atlanta's
curriculum.
Let me have L.A.''s curriculum.
My answer is no.
Right.
I'll show you that and we'lllook at it on this PowerPoint
and I'll walk through theelements.
But I'm not handing you this.
(27:42):
And this is why.
Like they have to be a part ofthe construction of it in order
to value it, in order to knowthe hard work it took to put
that up so that they use it in ameaningful way.
When Jared walks away or whenPhilip walks away or when the
principal walks away becausethey value it.
Right.
That's been a shortcoming ineducation for decades.
Us giving teachers things andthen wondering why they didn't
(28:03):
implement it with fidelity.
OK, why do you think they did?
And there are many reasons.
One, they don't value it.
They're not going to tell youthat, but they don't.
SPEAKER_04 (28:10):
They didn't create it.
And that's the issue, right?
There's no ownership, fairly.
This is the problem I see withpurchase curriculum and these
sort of holding teachers' feetto the fire on a scope and
sequence about what they'reteaching on any given day.
It's not natural.
It's not student-centered.
It's not teaching.
It's not learning-centered.
(28:31):
What you and I are talking aboutis the value in co-creation.
It's like taking a framework,taking the principles, taking
the criteria and buildingsomething of it and having time
to do that and coming back incollaborative teams to be able
to refine that and to worktogether on that.
That's the the And I also thinkit's an education system that is
(28:52):
able to help students to seethemselves and their learning
and actually bring themselves totheir learning in terms of who
they are, their identity, whatthey're passionate about.
You know, the IYC curriculum isdefinitely engaging all of those
sorts of things.
It's central, right, to thedesign.
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
I'm going to say it's key.
Everything is key in terms ofstudents' beliefs, their
interests, their passions, theircultures.
Oftentimes, there's amisunderstanding about the word
culture.
It has this bad connotation.
It does not mean it is connectedto some ethnicity.
At times, it is, but culture isnot always synonymous with
ethnicity.
Understanding that they don'thave to shed their culture.
(29:29):
They don't have to shed theirbeliefs.
They don't have to shed thethings that they are
enthusiastic about because theycame to school today.
Like, think about that.
Like they can bring that stuffto the classroom with them and
use it as levers to help themlearn.
So the key thing is theyunderstand purpose.
You know, you and I, peoplewho've been a part of
educational system for decades,we often joke about and you'll
(29:49):
see T-shirts made and posters.
Why are we learning this?
Like, right.
We all know about that.
And rarely can we answer thatquestion.
Right.
That's a powerful thing rightthere.
Not just the what, but the why.
And not only that, how they'regoing to use it also, not just
to get through this assignment,Phillip, but beyond this
classroom.
How can I continue to use theskills and the knowledge I'm
learning throughout the CBLunit?
(30:10):
Purpose is high.
Value is high.
Appreciation is high.
For anyone that visits any ofour IYC sites, you would almost
think that the students areacting, but they aren't.
You would think that they arebecause of value and purpose and
belief.
And they also feel as if theyare being treated respectfully.
Right?
They're asked about their ideas.
They're asked about feedback onassignments.
(30:32):
They're asked about how can wereflect to see if we do this
unit again next time, how couldit be improved?
And not only are we teachingthem like the hard numeracy and
literacy proficiency skills,we're also teaching them Once
again, the soft skills, thedispositions, core values,
seeing themselves as innovators,seeing themselves as disruptors,
(30:53):
seeing themselves as empatheticcollaborators and communicators,
seeing themselves astechnologists, like they can see
themselves that way, right?
So that student's identities arebeing developed.
They understand purpose ofschool and not just why they're
in school, but how it can beutilized once they get that
diploma, you know, and they walkacross that stage.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
And I think this leads us to the most important
thing is that students actuallysee what their possibilities are
after high school.
That, you know, what it means tobe an engineer is multifaceted.
What it means to be involved inthe music industry is
multifaceted.
There's not just one, you know,there's so many jobs that go
into filmmaking and, you know,in advertising.
(31:31):
Like there's so many differentthings that kids can do.
And I think sometimes they just,you know, their career focus is
very narrow.
And I think what you're doingand what education Senior year,
SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
we're building out this course.
We may have an introductoryversion of it their junior year
where we talk about emergingtechnology.
We talk about emerging design.
We talk about things that arenot going to be and how do we
prepare for something that wedon't know yet.
Um, it's really looking at somefundamental core pillars that to
(32:08):
me, we think will allow them tobe able to navigate spaces that
are yet to be known.
One is what you and I continueto talk about throughout the
balance of this podcast,understanding the power of the
design thinking cycle, right?
You don't have to know what jobsare coming down the pipe.
You don't have to know what the,you know, the century will look
like the next folding century.
But if you do give yourself thetime and patience to ideate, to
(32:30):
iterate, to develop, and be opento failure and be open to
continuing refinement, then youwill be fine.
Applied design thinking, youguys, you and I have applied it
multiple times here.
We talked about how it's appliedthroughout the system.
We help students understand thepower of design thinking and how
it can be used in an environmentthat is unknown to you.
We also, in our framework, wetalk about being comfortable
(32:52):
with ambiguity.
Be comfortable with ambiguity.
Be comfortable with things notbeing well-defined.
Look at that as an opportunityfor you to innovate.
Things that are not defined andthings that are not known, those
are great opportunities for youto insert yourself and fill gaps
that have yet to be filled.
So those two things, helpingstudents understand the power of
design thinking, which will helpthem navigate a world that's
(33:14):
unknown, and also beingcomfortable with ambiguity and
ongoing ambiguities.
Also helping studentsunderstand, you know, that a lot
of times they're drawn by fiscalresources and money and things
like that.
So we highlight a bunch ofentrepreneurs.
We highlight a bunch of peoplewho are successful.
And it's because they werecomfortable with ambiguity.
Well, there are many reasonswhy.
(33:34):
But one is they were comfortablewith ambiguity and they were OK
with things not being known.
And they're OK with figuringthings out.
We often tell students, you playgames, you play video games, you
do all kinds of things, oryou're figuring things out.
You don't know what's comingaround that corner.
That's life.
Take it to another scale outsideof your video game, outside of
whatever game you're playing,and think about what's waiting
(33:56):
behind that corner.
And even though I don't knowwhat's there, how can I prepare
myself best for the unknown?
SPEAKER_04 (34:03):
You've been listening to the Education by
Design podcast.
And until next time, staycurious.
We've been refining the system for decades, but what
if it's time to redesign it?
Not from scratch, but from whatwe know works.
You're listening to Education byDesign.
I'm your host, Phil Evans.
(00:43):
What if school wasn't about whatstudents must know, but about
what they need to figure out?
What if education didn't startwith standards and end with
grades, but began with a problemworth solving or more, a
challenge?
In this two-part series, we'reexploring a fundamental shift,
one that moves us away fromcompliance and into complexity,
(01:06):
from content coverage tochallenge-based learning.
In this model, Learning is notabstract or siloed.
It's connected, it'scollaborative, and it's
creative.
It invites students to grapplewith the real problems of our
time and to see themselves ascapable of making an impact.
These models are nottheoretical.
(01:26):
They're happening now.
At the Iveen and Young Center inLos Angeles and Atlanta, both
her school students workalongside entrepreneurs,
engineers, artists, businessesto solve real-world challenges.
The structure is not a departurefrom academic rigor.
It's an evolution of it.
Rather than just meetingstandards, they're designing
(01:46):
solutions.
And yet here's the tension.
Many schools are stillstructured to meet mandates that
are miles away from the worldstudents will inherit.
Teachers who want to innovateare often caught between
contradictory demands, teach thetest, and prepare students for
life.
The two are not always the same.
(02:07):
This is where transformationmeets resistance.
Dr.
Jared Dupre understands thisdeeply.
He studied mathematics at boththe undergraduate and graduate
levels and began his career as aclassroom teacher.
He held senior roles incurriculum and instruction
across Los Angeles UnifiedSchool District and now leads
national expansion of the Iveenand Young Center.
(02:29):
And through all of this, hispassions remain steadfast,
creating the conditions wherestudents and teachers can do
meaningful, relevant,future-facing work.
The IYC model, wasn't designedto check boxes.
It grew out of a need observedfirsthand by Jimmy Iovine and
Dr.
Dre when building theirbusiness.
(02:50):
They realized that the creative,technical, and strategic minds
they gathered weren't speakingthe same language.
So they imagined a school thatwould teach young people not
just content, but how to workacross disciplines to prototype
ideas and to shape the futurerather than merely preparing for
it.
In today's conversation, Jaredhelps us understand how such
(03:11):
models work, why it matters, andwhat it takes to bring it to
life, especially in systemsbuilt to do the opposite.
Because this isn't about oneschool or one program, it's
about a question every leader ineducation must eventually face.
Are we preparing students tosucceed in the systems as they
(03:31):
are, or are we preparingstudents to change them?
SPEAKER_03 (03:35):
I love this work.
It's been a great opportunity toreally think about Education in
an innovative way, really tryingto make it more responsive to
students, more responsive tofamilies, and not only that,
more responsive to the communityas well.
We often ask community partnersto come in and be a part of
this, and then we don't reallyhave a meaningful place for them
to really latch on and do goodwork.
(03:55):
It's been a lot of learningexperience for me, a huge
career, but one I'm trulyappreciative of.
SPEAKER_04 (04:00):
And it's a journey that started back in the
classrooms, right, Jared?
SPEAKER_03 (04:03):
Yeah, so I left the classroom back in 2005, 2006,
somewhere in there, I was amathematics coach at the
district level for many, manyyears.
After that, I was a principal atthree different high schools in
Los Angeles Unified SchoolDistrict, South Atlanta, Magnus
Schools, a whole range ofdifferent types of schools where
(04:25):
I was a principal.
After that, superintendent askedme if I wanted to oversee
instruction for K through 12.
After that, the largesuperintendent asked me if I
wanted to be a part of hiscabinet working in the
superintendent's office.
And of course, that's an offeryou don't say no to.
So I was in the superintendent'soffice for about three years
overseeing many things, one ofthem being the Black Student
(04:46):
Achievement Plan, the other oneworking with the Magnets Program
to create magnet schools.
That was where I came across theIovine and Young Center.
At the time, Jimmy Iovine andDr.
Dre presented their proposal tothe superintendent, Austin
Buechner, at the time.
And he was like, yes, Jared,this is you.
Take it.
Let's lift it.
Let's work it.
And that was four years ago.
(05:08):
Three years ago, we opened thedoors, Philip, to the Ivan and
Young Center in L.A.
Two years ago, I left thedistrict and Jimmy and Dre asked
me if I wanted to come apart, bea part of their team to continue
to scale their work across thenation.
So that's another opportunityyou're not going to say no to.
SPEAKER_04 (05:24):
Certainly not.
You know, I remember you talkingat the South by Southwest
conference on a panel and justtalking about how often we bring
community members into theschool setting to get involved,
but But then, you know, otherthan the feel good aspect of
their involvement, there isn'talways a direct kind of line
back to how the learning andteaching really pays back to the
(05:49):
innovation that we want to seein industry.
And I love that yoursupervisors, like this is you
all over it, like, you know,setting other people up to get
into their lane and to flourishin a way that breaks barriers.
some of the traditions as wellis key, isn't it?
That's what it's going to taketo move teachers in this
direction, right?
To empower them.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
Yeah.
We need, I don't know.
It's this concept of criticalmass, Philip.
Like when can we strike criticalmass?
We have more people coming onboard, acknowledging, yes, that
education has not reallyfulfilled its true promise for
the masses.
It has not.
And we are all aware of that.
But yet we keep looking at thedata, Philip.
You know, oh, we keep looking atthe data, being dismayed and
(06:31):
shaking our heads.
And that's where it ends.
At what point do we havecritical mass?
We're going to say collectively,we're going to move in a
concerted manner in a differentdirection that serves a much
more larger population ofstudents.
That's yet to be seen.
SPEAKER_04 (06:44):
Right.
And I think it's a practice.
I think it's a mind shiftbecause we've tried reinventing
the wheel with new curriculum.
And often the new curriculum ispurchased.
There's not enough time forteachers to engage in it and to
learn it and to innovate withit.
There's no professionallearning.
There's no community.
Often the assessments are nottied to the curriculum.
So then we don't get any databack.
(07:06):
And then teachers are sort ofdisenfranchised going, well,
what's the point in investing?
They're going to change it inthree years anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Right.
What you just described, Philip,is the educational cycle It's
SPEAKER_04 (07:14):
Groundhog Day.
SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
Right, right.
Kids are
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
still not achieving.
Let's change the curriculumagain.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Right, because that's the fix.
SPEAKER_04 (07:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:21):
The curriculum, it should be the students.
The curriculum is the students.
The curriculum should be theworld that we're looking at,
contemporary times, right?
Combining those two, yourcurriculum needs to be
responsive.
It needs to pivot.
It needs to be flexible.
It needs to be nimble.
And it hasn't been.
Our curriculum here in America,specifically LA, has probably
much been the way it has beenfor the last 50, 60 years,
(07:42):
right?
Which blows my mind.
You know that, Philip.
Things are completely differentoutside these windows as they
were 2025 versus 1940.
But yet our curriculum is verysimilar.
It makes no sense.
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
And even these transactions, right?
We're so focused on, you know,K-12 is so focused on where kids
are going to go to college.
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:02):
And like, so you're looking at a piece of paper that
gives you a sort of a credit ora currency for a moment in your
experience, not to devaluehigher education.
But what about the flourishingthat happens after graduation
What about the fact that I knowthat what I'm learning I can
leverage and to apply?
Yes.
So, I mean, we touched on thecurriculum piece.
Just before we move on to someof the good stuff, what are some
(08:24):
of the other aspects of theproblem that you think that
you're addressing with the IYC?
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Well, I think one of the main things is tapping into
student motivation.
I'm a firm believer, you know,there's a law, compulsory
education.
That's a federal law.
But there is no way that you cancompel kids to learn.
Like if you think about thatstatement at its fundamental
level, there's no such thing ascompulsory education.
like kids must be motivated tolearn they must be engaged it
must speak to them so one of themajor hallmarks of our work
(08:51):
philip is really tapping intostudent motivation really
tapping into students passionstudents interests things that
they want to do and framing thecurriculum framing the the
interactions and thepartnerships around that
motivation is key to really umto activate learning in a
meaningful way um so that's onething the other thing that i
really appreciate is theoutreach to so many community
(09:12):
partners for-profit non So whydon't we extend your reach, your
community reach to the actualwalls of the classroom?
I mean, of course, leveragingJimmy and Dre's star power to
bring in as much capital andresources.
And not only that, they'reshining a light on education,
(09:33):
period.
what education has done well andalso things that they can do
differently to make sure it'smore in tune with the emerging
needs of the 21st century.
We like to talk about that,Phil, but no one is really
making sure there's a matchbetween what students are
learning K through 12 in thisnew world that they're going to
be a part of once they get thatdiploma and walk across that
stage.
Welcome to reality, right?
SPEAKER_04 (09:54):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (09:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:03):
So I think it's incredible that two of the
world's most innovative musicproducers would get involved in
education.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how that all came to be?
SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
Yeah, so, and this is, I mean, I appreciate many
things about Jimmy and Dre.
Like they didn't have to, likethey are comfortable, they could
be fine with the rest of theirlives, but they see that there
is a need.
The major motivation was whenthey were trying to create
beats, right?
And they went to differentsectors, different industry
partners and said, hey, we needall these people to come
together to help us brainstormto be creative, to innovate, to
(10:35):
think about this new tool.
And everyone came and everyonewas excited and ready to work,
Phillip, but everyone was notspeaking the same language.
So the Ivan and Young Academy atthe University of Southern
California was born out of theneed to really think about a
more integrated way for thedifferent silo professions to
learn about each other and tospeak to each other.
When IYA was created back in2010, I want to say, um, Yeah,
(11:01):
so that was the premise for thatcreation, and then over the last
13 years, the school has beenreally successful, proof of
concept, many graduates comingout, not just being
entrepreneurs, but also beingable to find their niche, their
place, and what they want to do.
Now, Jimmy and Dre said, hey,there's success here at the
university level.
It's not some secret formula.
Perhaps we can begin to sharethis information and this
(11:23):
knowledge at the high schoollevel, and so that's where this
came about, really thinkingabout how can we get high
schoolers thinking about thismore integrated, this more range
way of thinking and not be sosiloed and so pigeonhole where
I'm just going to be anengineer, I'm just going to be
an architect, or I'm just goingto be a doctor.
But to have a more of aninvolved way, a more integrated
way of thinking across manysectors is beneficial.
(11:46):
So they started this work at thehigh school level, of course,
not to the same degree ofsophistication at the university
level, but at the high schoollevel.
And in turn, Philip, we want todip down to middle school and
elementary as well.
It's just a way of thinking, away of thinking about life from
a professional standpoint andnot waiting until you become a
professional to think aboutprofessional skills that are
(12:07):
coveted.
SPEAKER_04 (12:07):
And Jared, that's key because, you know, so many
academically prepared studentsstill have to wait until they
get into the workforce todiscover those skills they truly
need, you know, and it's atransdisciplinary and
interdisciplinary world thatwe're living in.
And I just don't think thateducational systems have evolved
that way.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Right, right.
We're in a funky space rightnow.
You know that.
Like all these new jobs arepopping off, all these new ways
of thinking, right?
All these paradigm shifts, butyet we really aren't preparing
students to be a part of thatagile, pivotal way of thinking
that's super fluid, that changesevery month.
You have to be nimble.
You have to think in a creativeway.
You have to be innovative.
(12:44):
to stay on deck with the waythings are moving right now here
in America and across the world.
SPEAKER_04 (12:50):
And now we're all very interested in how AI is
going to shape education andpotentially replace the type of
teaching and learning that thetraditional schooling has
continued to sort of staygrounded in.
You guys have designed someinnovation standards, haven't
you, or some criterion?
SPEAKER_03 (13:08):
Yeah, the innovation framework.
So a lot of districts haveteaching and learning framework
that outlines standards foraround pedagogy, curriculum
design, culture, professionalexpectations.
We designed an innovationframework that outlined
standards around similarbuckets, one being innovation in
instruction, innovation in theactual curriculum design,
innovation in the culture andthe mindset, right?
(13:31):
We don't want you to just teachwell.
We don't want you to just designsound curriculum.
We want you to have a mindset, away of acting, a way of being.
And then also a framework aroundhow to really bring in community
partners to be a part of theschool system in a meaningful
way.
In fact, we think about thedesign thinking cycle and the
innovation cycle.
So our framework itself, Philip,is still a prototype itself.
(13:52):
So it's still being refined andstill being improved.
But that's basically the core ofour framework,
SPEAKER_04 (13:57):
those four elements.
What are you telling me?
That you're actually applyingthe innovation design cycle to
learn what to do in education?
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Right.
Through multiple iterations.
Who would think that that wouldbe?
SPEAKER_04 (14:08):
And you're empathizing?
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Right, right.
Who would think?
SPEAKER_04 (14:12):
Groundbreaking stuff in education.
But it is.
Unfortunately, it is.
SPEAKER_03 (14:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:16):
Yeah.
And this is where the dream ofscaling this and having
influence in the world ofeducation could really come true
for, I guess, for folks likeJimmy and Dre.
Yeah.
There's just such a hunger tochange the practice and to
really dig deeper intolearning-focused pedagogies and
to ensure we're creatingcollaborative space for teachers
(14:37):
to really experiment with theirpractice.
John Spencer talks aboutteaching in beta or playing the
new teacher card He had ateaching card on his desk that
was given to him by his mentorteacher in practicum that says
expires never.
Isn't that great?
SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
Yeah, I like that idea.
The classroom as an experiment,right?
Which should be because yourstudents, right, that's your
sample set right there andyou're learning from them.
And based on how they'reresponding, you're designing new
learning experiences to helpthem learn.
Actually, yeah, I like thatconcept.
UNKNOWN (15:13):
Music
SPEAKER_04 (15:25):
So what I understand about what you're doing is it's
not project-based learning, it'snot problem-based learning, it's
challenge-based learning.
So let's dive a little deeperinto the innovative curriculum
that you've developed and whatit looks like for students in
Atlanta, in an LA USDcurriculum.
SPEAKER_03 (15:41):
So we started in LA.
Atlanta just finished its firstyear this year.
Next year, fall 25, Miami willopen its doors.
Englewood, right close to LosAngeles, will open.
And we also have a coupleschools that will be a part of
our cohort three.
But the primary premise, thereare several pillars of our
curriculum across all fourdifferent cities and four
(16:01):
different sites, is thechallenge-based learning
framework, where we bring in apartner and we say, hey, you are
grappling with this real problemthat your team are grappling on
and dealing with, allow ourstudents an opportunity to take
a look at your actual problem,not one that's synthetic, not
one that you just created for anexperiment, an actual problem
that your team is grapplingwith.
(16:22):
So we designed that.
Once we have that, though,Philip, the true work is really
trying to integrate And I'mgoing to use this word.
We're going to try to integratethese archaic standards.
And I'm going to say that thesearchaic standards that exist in
most public school districts, weintegrate that into the CBL
experience.
Not only that, we have ourchallenge-based learning prompt
(16:44):
and activity extend acrossmultiple classrooms, multiple
disciplines.
So it does not just end inEnglish, Philip, science.
It doesn't end in history.
It doesn't end in math.
Students see it throughout theirday for the balance of the unit.
So
SPEAKER_04 (16:58):
they think that's where they're starting to train
their minds to think about itfrom different perspectives,
from different disciplines.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
idea through iteration or actually no not
iteration ideation first likeyou ideate just free-flowing
brainstorming from there youbuild your prototype and then
from there you give iterativefeedback to continue to refine
your prototype um that designthinking cycled understanding
technology we teach students theskills and tools of how to use
(17:49):
technology but not only thatPhilip it's more than just how
to use technology it's also howto generate new technology
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
yeah I
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
want our students to be the passive users of
technology that others havecreated.
That's cool.
We also want you to put yourselfon the other end of that and see
yourself as the innovator, seeyourself as the generator of the
technology and not just theuser.
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
That's the entrepreneurship aspect of
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
it.
Right.
That and the entrepreneur aspectof the business.
How do we know that yourbusiness plan is viable?
How do we know it's sustainable?
How do we know that it's goingto speak to the audience that
you're serving?
Did you do any type of empathyoutreach to determine if you're
walking down the right road forthis particular user set?
That, once again, The backdropbeing the traditional state and
(18:34):
national standards that we mustteach.
Right.
All the things we're talkingabout, Phil, here are fun.
They're exciting.
They're creative.
But there is a big but.
We can't move away from statestandards and public education,
so we must find a way to teachthem through this vehicle of a
more authentic way to understandschooling and the place for
which schooling is supposed toprepare students for the real
(18:55):
world.
SPEAKER_04 (18:55):
Yeah, see, but this is where I feel like
collaborative innovation getsstuck because we need to really
reimagine the system.
I think that if we'reintegrating the standards,
because the standards are therefor a reason, how are we also
able to kind of demonstrate thatthe skills are being developed
as we maybe rather than tryingto serve multiple different sets
of standards or requirements,could we focus on the approach
(19:21):
that is actually raising theexpectations and the outcomes
for students?
Because what students experienceand what they produce as a
result of a challenge-basedcurriculum is really
outstanding.
What are some of the things thatstudents are producing as a
result of the opportunities theIYC is presenting to them in
their learning?
Have any of the students beenable to scale what they've
(19:41):
produced for Yeah, so I'msmiling at
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
your questions because I love them.
So, right, right.
So, so not yet.
We have one potentially, though,in Atlanta.
A student was exploring sometype of solution to some type of
agriculture, ground.
Water device.
And, you know, here in Atlantaagriculture here across Georgia,
Atlanta's agriculture is huge.
(20:06):
This particular studentdeveloped some type of coal
device that was able to bring inmore water.
I don't want to misspeak forwhatever the project was, but it
was some type of coal device.
Anyway, we have severalcompanies that are interested in
that idea.
So this brings us to a newpoint.
Like, what do we do now?
Because Philip didn't reallythink
SPEAKER_04 (20:29):
about,
SPEAKER_03 (20:34):
hey, what happens
SPEAKER_04 (20:38):
if
SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
a student has a groundbreaking idea?
Right now, if a student issaying, hey, I have this great
idea that could be patented,then we're not giving that to
company X.
Right.
And so to answer your question,no, but we are knocking on the
door of that.
We're knocking on the door ofcompanies and other
(21:08):
organizations and also people,venture capitalists who want to
invest, seeing some of theseideas and wanting to lift them
and take them to light, whichalso shows us the more work we
need to do to highlight thestudent projects, to highlight
their solutions, not just tocapture it in some capstone
project where the company getsto see it, but also just
amplifying it nationally.
(21:30):
We need to do a better job ofthat.
So to answer your question onceagain, current answer is no, but
if you ask me that in a month,that answer I'm going to say
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
could be yes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
Right.
It's going to be a yes.
But we need to be careful abouthow we practice that and the
road we walk on.
SPEAKER_04 (21:52):
I love the way that you come at that.
I also think a little bit aboutthe social and emotional aspect
of that, of a young person whohas worked within what is kind
of like it's compulsoryschooling.
and come up with an idea thatcould actually set you on track
to be, you know, a multi-millionair you know very early how do
(22:14):
we sort of protect studentsaround what it means to people
work their entire lives you knowthink about Dre and you know
Jimmy have worked they startedoff like Jimmy was sweeping the
floors I think in a radio in arecording studio at one point
you know to become you know sucha leader in the world in pop
culture I think about him assomebody who's defined pop
culture by the way like if youthink about Eminem Lady Gaga
(22:36):
like
SPEAKER_03 (22:37):
I mean I mean solo But it's
SPEAKER_04 (22:42):
just incredibly inspiring that two really
renowned, you know, musicproducers, innovators in the
industry are now investing inyoung people.
And I think my question wasreally, you know, to, you know,
from the, you know, it takes along time to, you know, figure
out how to have success in afield and to be able to provide
(23:02):
a type of education wherestudents are able to grapple
with that.
You know, we're leaving, youknow, we're leaving school.
out of the gate with just moreinsight into what we could
potentially do.
And I think that's incredible.
So, you know, my question wasreally about how do we support
those students and, you know,what I love about the humility
in which that you guys at IYCare coming at this is it's very
(23:23):
much a work in progress andwe've got these things, you
know, in mind as we're movingforward.
Maybe there isn't sort of ananswer to that question.
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
Your questions are great though.
And these are things that we aregrappling with and things that
we're thinking about how toimprove and do things better.
We're We're a startup, so we'relearning as we go.
We're building as we go.
So I love your questions.
SPEAKER_04 (23:43):
Yeah.
No, I just appreciate the– theshift, you know, that we're
making in education, that we cansort of create new proof points
around what students experiencewhen they go to school.
And I think of all the studentsthat I've watched cross the
stage and some of the ones thatreally struggled just to pass
the basic standards of learningtest.
And, you know, in many ways, Ifeel like I've failed them, you
(24:07):
know, because they've gone outvery, very underprepared for the
world that we're in.
SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
I hear you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:13):
Yeah.
Maybe we should talk a littlebit about teachers.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout the professional learning
curve and what you guys aredoing to support teachers
through this?
SPEAKER_03 (24:23):
So the professional learning curve is a big one,
Philip.
In fact, I just facilitated PDfor our Englewood teachers on
Friday.
It was their first exposure tochallenge-based learning, their
first exposure to designthinking.
And it's going to take a lot.
What I had to do was I had tocome off of the PD that I had
planned for them, Philip,because this is a shock to their
(24:44):
system, Philip.
This is not the way that they'vebeen teaching for years and
decades.
This is not the way that theywent to their teacher education
program and said, hey, build outthese units with all these
standards, with these differentsyntax.
This is not it.
SPEAKER_04 (24:57):
And it's not how they were taught in school.
SPEAKER_03 (24:59):
Right, right.
And it's not how they weretaught in school.
It's not what theiradministrators are telling them
is valuable.
It's
SPEAKER_04 (25:05):
not what the standard
SPEAKER_03 (25:06):
goes back to the standard.
So it's been a challenge really.
helping them understand that,hey, you can help students make
progress towards these standardsin a different way than what
you're currently doing.
Like direct instruction is thedefault mode of teaching for
most teachers.
They feel that you must modeland think about this, Phil.
They think that you must modelthings before students can do.
(25:27):
I want to pause after that tothink about the damage you're
setting kids up for.
SPEAKER_04 (25:31):
And what if the model isn't a good model?
It's like I'm standing in frontof my students saying, try and
just do something a little bitbetter
SPEAKER_03 (25:37):
than this.
Right, right, right.
You're showing them a modelthat's flawed.
But you're setting them up to betethered to somebody for the
rest of their lives.
Whenever something new comestheir way, they're going to be,
where's the model?
Where's the model?
So it's been hard with teachershelping them shift their
pedagogy from a more directinstruction model to a more
inquiry-based student modelwhere students are developing
(25:58):
conjectures and testing them.
They're developing hypothesesand they're testing them and you
providing the space for them tofail and to improve on their
failures and continue thatcycle.
The major thing, though,Phillip, is getting teachers
through that first year untilyou have proof of concept, which
we have in Atlanta and we havein LA.
In Englewood, we don't.
Once they see proof of concept,not just in hard quantitative
(26:19):
data, but also qualitative data,when students are coming to
school, they're happy to be inyour classroom.
There's joy, right?
Right?
And once they see that, Phillip,then the next year of PD is much
easier.
The first year, though, isextremely challenging trying to
undo the hard wiring that hastaken place for teachers
throughout their entire career.
That's a challenge.
SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
You know, I encounter this with my work too.
And I think what it takes isempathy.
Like we need to be reminded thatteachers have experienced a lot
of change and a lot ofprofessional development comes
along under the guise ofinnovation.
And we're going to do somethingnew.
And yet, you know, we then leavethe teachers to their own
devices.
SPEAKER_03 (27:00):
Oh, this is the other piece.
And you touched upon it briefly,Philip.
Right now, I think one of themajor pitfalls in education
around professional developmentfor teachers is they come to the
PD and things are handed tothem.
Right.
Here are some tools.
Right.
Here are some strategies.
Here's some curriculum.
Go use it.
We'll talk to you about it, butgo use it.
(27:22):
Like there is no true valuethere.
Right.
I think one of the great thingswe're doing is we bring teachers
in on the ground to build thecurriculum with us.
You are building it.
Oftentimes, teachers will say,well, let me have Atlanta's
curriculum.
Let me have L.A.''s curriculum.
My answer is no.
Right.
I'll show you that and we'lllook at it on this PowerPoint
and I'll walk through theelements.
But I'm not handing you this.
(27:42):
And this is why.
Like they have to be a part ofthe construction of it in order
to value it, in order to knowthe hard work it took to put
that up so that they use it in ameaningful way.
When Jared walks away or whenPhilip walks away or when the
principal walks away becausethey value it.
Right.
That's been a shortcoming ineducation for decades.
Us giving teachers things andthen wondering why they didn't
(28:03):
implement it with fidelity.
OK, why do you think they did?
And there are many reasons.
One, they don't value it.
They're not going to tell youthat, but they don't.
SPEAKER_04 (28:10):
They didn't create it.
And that's the issue, right?
There's no ownership, fairly.
This is the problem I see withpurchase curriculum and these
sort of holding teachers' feetto the fire on a scope and
sequence about what they'reteaching on any given day.
It's not natural.
It's not student-centered.
It's not teaching.
It's not learning-centered.
(28:31):
What you and I are talking aboutis the value in co-creation.
It's like taking a framework,taking the principles, taking
the criteria and buildingsomething of it and having time
to do that and coming back incollaborative teams to be able
to refine that and to worktogether on that.
That's the the And I also thinkit's an education system that is
(28:52):
able to help students to seethemselves and their learning
and actually bring themselves totheir learning in terms of who
they are, their identity, whatthey're passionate about.
You know, the IYC curriculum isdefinitely engaging all of those
sorts of things.
It's central, right, to thedesign.
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
I'm going to say it's key.
Everything is key in terms ofstudents' beliefs, their
interests, their passions, theircultures.
Oftentimes, there's amisunderstanding about the word
culture.
It has this bad connotation.
It does not mean it is connectedto some ethnicity.
At times, it is, but culture isnot always synonymous with
ethnicity.
Understanding that they don'thave to shed their culture.
(29:29):
They don't have to shed theirbeliefs.
They don't have to shed thethings that they are
enthusiastic about because theycame to school today.
Like, think about that.
Like they can bring that stuffto the classroom with them and
use it as levers to help themlearn.
So the key thing is theyunderstand purpose.
You know, you and I, peoplewho've been a part of
educational system for decades,we often joke about and you'll
(29:49):
see T-shirts made and posters.
Why are we learning this?
Like, right.
We all know about that.
And rarely can we answer thatquestion.
Right.
That's a powerful thing rightthere.
Not just the what, but the why.
And not only that, how they'regoing to use it also, not just
to get through this assignment,Phillip, but beyond this
classroom.
How can I continue to use theskills and the knowledge I'm
learning throughout the CBLunit?
(30:10):
Purpose is high.
Value is high.
Appreciation is high.
For anyone that visits any ofour IYC sites, you would almost
think that the students areacting, but they aren't.
You would think that they arebecause of value and purpose and
belief.
And they also feel as if theyare being treated respectfully.
Right?
They're asked about their ideas.
They're asked about feedback onassignments.
(30:32):
They're asked about how can wereflect to see if we do this
unit again next time, how couldit be improved?
And not only are we teachingthem like the hard numeracy and
literacy proficiency skills,we're also teaching them Once
again, the soft skills, thedispositions, core values,
seeing themselves as innovators,seeing themselves as disruptors,
(30:53):
seeing themselves as empatheticcollaborators and communicators,
seeing themselves astechnologists, like they can see
themselves that way, right?
So that student's identities arebeing developed.
They understand purpose ofschool and not just why they're
in school, but how it can beutilized once they get that
diploma, you know, and they walkacross that stage.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
And I think this leads us to the most important
thing is that students actuallysee what their possibilities are
after high school.
That, you know, what it means tobe an engineer is multifaceted.
What it means to be involved inthe music industry is
multifaceted.
There's not just one, you know,there's so many jobs that go
into filmmaking and, you know,in advertising.
(31:31):
Like there's so many differentthings that kids can do.
And I think sometimes they just,you know, their career focus is
very narrow.
And I think what you're doingand what education Senior year,
SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
we're building out this course.
We may have an introductoryversion of it their junior year
where we talk about emergingtechnology.
We talk about emerging design.
We talk about things that arenot going to be and how do we
prepare for something that wedon't know yet.
Um, it's really looking at somefundamental core pillars that to
(32:08):
me, we think will allow them tobe able to navigate spaces that
are yet to be known.
One is what you and I continueto talk about throughout the
balance of this podcast,understanding the power of the
design thinking cycle, right?
You don't have to know what jobsare coming down the pipe.
You don't have to know what the,you know, the century will look
like the next folding century.
But if you do give yourself thetime and patience to ideate, to
(32:30):
iterate, to develop, and be opento failure and be open to
continuing refinement, then youwill be fine.
Applied design thinking, youguys, you and I have applied it
multiple times here.
We talked about how it's appliedthroughout the system.
We help students understand thepower of design thinking and how
it can be used in an environmentthat is unknown to you.
We also, in our framework, wetalk about being comfortable
(32:52):
with ambiguity.
Be comfortable with ambiguity.
Be comfortable with things notbeing well-defined.
Look at that as an opportunityfor you to innovate.
Things that are not defined andthings that are not known, those
are great opportunities for youto insert yourself and fill gaps
that have yet to be filled.
So those two things, helpingstudents understand the power of
design thinking, which will helpthem navigate a world that's
(33:14):
unknown, and also beingcomfortable with ambiguity and
ongoing ambiguities.
Also helping studentsunderstand, you know, that a lot
of times they're drawn by fiscalresources and money and things
like that.
So we highlight a bunch ofentrepreneurs.
We highlight a bunch of peoplewho are successful.
And it's because they werecomfortable with ambiguity.
Well, there are many reasonswhy.
(33:34):
But one is they were comfortablewith ambiguity and they were OK
with things not being known.
And they're OK with figuringthings out.
We often tell students, you playgames, you play video games, you
do all kinds of things, oryou're figuring things out.
You don't know what's comingaround that corner.
That's life.
Take it to another scale outsideof your video game, outside of
whatever game you're playing,and think about what's waiting
(33:56):
behind that corner.
And even though I don't knowwhat's there, how can I prepare
myself best for the unknown?
SPEAKER_04 (34:03):
You've been listening to the Education by
Design podcast.
And until next time, staycurious.
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