January 27, 2025 • 43 mins
In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Almitra Berry welcomes seasoned psychotherapist Phyllis Levitt, author of the book "America in Therapy." Phyllis shares her unique perspective on applying therapeutic principles to address the growing divisions impacting our children and communities. She emphasizes the importance of understanding family dynamics, addressing trauma, and fostering a culture of healing to transform our schools and society.
This insightful conversation explores practical ways to support the mental health and wellbeing of students, parents, and educators. Listeners can learn more about Phyllis Levitt and her work by visiting her website at https://www.phyllisleavitt.com, as well as connecting with her on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Join our community. Go to patreon.com/almitraberry and sign up for our weekly newsletter and exclusive content.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
If you're a parent, teacher or school leader and
(00:03):
you're sick and tired of thefrustration, anger and unfair
treatment of children at highrisk in our public schools, then
perhaps it's time for all of usto do something about it. In
this podcast, Dr amitra Berrybrings you tips, tools,
strategies and tactics to buildsuccessful solutions while
(00:25):
touching, moving and inspiringall of us to transform our
schools so that every childthrives. Here's your host, Dr
Bennett,
Dr Almitra Berry (00:38):
hey, there equity warriors. Today, I
welcome Phyllis Levitt to the 3epodcast. Phyllis is a seasoned
psychotherapist with over 30years of experience. She's
recently authored a book calledAmerica in therapy, a new
approach to hope and healing fora nation in crisis. She's here
to share her unique perspectiveon applying therapeutic
(00:59):
principles to heal our nation'sgrowing divisions that are
impacting our children andcreate a more loving and
sustainable world for them toinherit. Phyllis, thanks so much
for joining me today. Well,
Unknown (01:11):
thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be
here with you.
Dr Almitra Berry (01:16):
Can you start by sharing, and you know, I
don't do a full bio, andeverybody our listeners know
that that bio is in the link,but I'd like for you to share
something from your life that ispivotal, that helps shape why
you do what you do, how itinfluenced your work, and how
you came up to write the bookAmerica in therapy. Because Lord
knows we need it. Lord knows we
Unknown (01:37):
need it. I agree. Yeah.
I mean, I, like so many people,had some very significant trauma
in my early childhood thatreally shaped my life in ways
that I had no way to understand.
Nobody talked about psychology.
I actually didn't remember mostof what happened to me until I
was much older, and so I had noidea why I had the pain that I
(01:59):
had, why I felt so alone in themidst of other people, and I
really came to believe thatthere was just something
intrinsically wrong with me. Andit wasn't until I began to
remember what happened and didsome significant therapy myself
that I started to come out fromunder the shadow of some of the
very painful things that hadhappened to me, but also it made
(02:22):
me realize how many people inthis world are suffering with no
access to either understandingwhat, what's bothering them,
what's causing their dysfunctionor their inability to really
thrive in life, and many peoplewho don't even get rescue from
what hurts them, and they'reongoingly symptomatic, and we
(02:42):
live in a society that tends toblame our symptoms our victims.
We tend to blame our victims fortheir symptoms without really
understanding how sensitive weare as human beings and how
deeply we can be impacted by theharmful behaviors of other
people. So out of my own healingprocess, I became a therapist,
(03:04):
and then I decided to write thisbook, because I worked so much
with family systems. Whetheryou're working with an
individual person or a family ora child or a couple, you're
always working with their familysystems. What conditioned them?
What were the role models ofbehavior, what were the
significant experiences peoplehad growing up that really
(03:26):
shaped the way that they feelabout themselves, the beliefs
they have, the expectations theyhave for themselves and for
other people. And the moredysfunctional or harmful those
family dynamics are, the moredysfunctional we tend to be, not
everybody, and some people arelike miracles, and they just
rise from the ashes on theirown. But what I realized being a
(03:48):
therapist is that many morepeople don't, and we have some
policies and practices going onin our homes, in our communities
and from our largestinstitutions, including
government, that really hurt alot of people and then blame
them because they're notthriving in our society. So one
of you know one of the thingsthat I love, and I love that
(04:10):
you're talking about education.
I wish that someone had taught apsychology course when I was in
high school. Our human relationsare the most important thing
that we can actually focus on,how we treat each other, how we
can learn to treat each otherbetter. I think should be, you
(04:31):
know, just up there withreading, writing and arithmetic
and all the things that we thatwe do teach, that are obviously
important. But I think humanrelations really needs to take
center stage today.
Dr Almitra Berry (04:43):
Yeah, you know, Phyllis, one of the things
I talk about all the time, whatI've written about, it's in my
books, is that the culture ofour classrooms is key to our
children feeling comfortable andwanting to learn. And you know,
even though I say I went to aTeacher's College. College back
in the Dark Ages. At this point,it was several decades ago,
clearly, but there was only oneI we only took one class in
(05:08):
educational psychology, onecourse in ed psych, which did
not deal with mental health ofour children or their
backgrounds. Now maybe it'schanged. I always invite my
listeners if I'm wrong, ifthere's something new. If
there's something I ought toknow, direct message me. Send me
a message. I use that, that linkdown in the show notes to send
me a text, but get a hold of meand let me know what's going on.
(05:31):
And you know, maybe even come onthe show. But I just don't think
it's enough, given what ishappening in our society today,
and as we talk about aboutpsychotherapy and healing and
trauma in the context of K 12education, I want to sort of
hone in on a couple of thingsthat I'm hoping that you can
help my listeners, andparticularly not just the
(05:53):
educators, but the parents wholisten to this show as well. And
so another thing I oftenhighlight, and I'm hoping that
you can support me in this isthat black and brown communities
in particular tend to poopootherapy. And so if we're talking
about many of our mostmarginalized learners, not just
(06:14):
our black and brown andindigenous populations, but our
LGD, LGBTQ students as well, andour children that are are trying
to figure out who they are whenthey're there. They're dealing
with these feelings that theyhave, that people tell them are
not normal. What do parentslet's start with them. What
(06:35):
should our parents be doing?
Unknown (06:38):
Well, one of the things, I mean, a couple of
things I want to say. I hope Idon't forget them. One of them
is, is that I think many, many,many people feel powerless in
our society, and more and moreso as power gets held at the
very top, as more as fewerpeople have more control over
(06:58):
more people and as the generalpopulation, in some ways, has
less and less of a voice, not inall ways, certainly like
podcasting and writing books andtalking and, you know, starting
movements, there's, there'sstill a place for us to have a
voice. But many people reallyfeel powerless, economically,
racially, religiously, genderwise, as you're saying. And I
(07:22):
think that makes therapy feelthreatening, because our
association with therapy andhealing, the healing arts, is
somehow that it's still, I thinkthe stigma is still that it's a
sign of weakness. You shouldn'tneed anybody you know, pull
yourself up by your bootstraps,be tough and, and I think many
people feel that they have to betough in this society to survive
(07:46):
and, and I think what manypeople don't understand is that
going to therapy and reallydealing with what wounded you
and trying to heal the worsteffects of the things that
happen to you with other people.
Because genuinely, it's whatgenerally, it's with other
people that we get hurt isactually takes great strength.
It takes great strength, ittakes courage. It's hard work,
(08:07):
and it's worth every bit of it,because inside, I truly believe
that inside every human being isan essential self that is loving
and kind, if given theopportunity to express
themselves and their fullpotential in the world. And so
you know, for your listeners, Ijust want to say that for people
who have felt like they have tobe tough in order to survive,
(08:30):
getting help to heal is actuallya sign of strength and embrace
it, because we need each otherto heal. Nobody's an island. I
know because I felt like anisland and it was a horrible
place to be. It's just, it'sbecause we don't have the
answers ourselves. And one ofthe things that I've learned as
(08:51):
a therapist is that, as I said,most of us have been hurt by
other people who you know cameby their dysfunctional behaviors
from their own wounding thatthey never got a chance to heal.
And we have to heal with otherpeople. We need the love and
belonging and safety and valuingby other people to heal. So
(09:11):
that's one of the things that Iwanted to say about that. And
then you you were talking aboutacceptance of Sorry, what was
the second part of yourquestion?
Dr Almitra Berry (09:25):
Well, I wanted you to talk to like to parents,
but also to educators in thisenvironment that we're in, I
don't know. And I said, then I'mso intently listening, hanging
on every word that you're sayingabout what we should do, and
then I've got other questionspopping up in my head. Don't
worry about it. We'll come backto it for sure. I'm sure it'll
circle around, if you're likeme, soon as you're not trying to
(09:46):
remember what it was gonna be.
Oh, now, now I remember. So feelfree to interrupt um, I think
Unknown (09:53):
about, oh, I do know. I do remember. So what I wanted to
share with parents is this, buta. Apart from what's going on in
the culture that is reallyimpacting both parents and
children, from social media,from politics, from the role
models that we're seeing, someof which are highly
dysfunctional. I started mypractice working with children.
(10:17):
I wanted to just work withchildren. That was my commitment
when I began, but what I foundwas 99.9% of the children that
were referred to me for therapywere suffering from conflict in
their home. There wasn't reallyanything wrong with these
children, but they were highlysymptomatic, bed Wendy, night
(10:38):
terrors, aggression towardssiblings and other children
becoming a bully or isolatingand having no friends, having
excessive fears, getting intodrugs and alcohol, young and you
know, associating with kids whowere also suffering and acting
out in in disturbed ways. Andevery, almost every single one
(11:00):
of those children was sufferingfrom a very conflictual divorce,
ongoing fighting in the home,addiction in the home,
unavailability a parent who hadleft, there was a divorce, and
the parent just left, and thechildren felt abandoned, but
most of it was conflict in thehome, ongoing conflict. And so
(11:20):
the work really became with theparents. There wasn't really
anything wrong with thesechildren. They were showing the
symptoms of the familydysfunction, and so that's one
of the things that I really wantto talk to parents about,
because a lot of these parentsreally didn't understand that
they're fighting between eachother or the tension in the home
(11:40):
or the unresolved divorce or thecustody battle was tearing their
children apart, and they wereshowing the symptoms of the
family pain. So often in theschool system, you see these
kids acting out or becomingisolated or associating with
other kids who are acting out orjust failing to thrive in school
period, because their littlepsyches are overcome with the
(12:04):
distress that they're sufferingfrom at home, and to say nothing
of poverty or racialdiscrimination that's happening
on a larger scale or in theschool system, yeah. So one of
my messages is to parents, isyou're having an incredible
impact on your children, and ifyou're suffering, if you're
depressed, if you're in highlevels of conflict, if you're
(12:26):
suffering from addiction or highlevels of anxiety or your own
social isolation, the one of thevery best things you can do for
your children is heal yourself,get help, if not for yourself,
for the sake of your Children,but really for both and you
deserve it. Parenting is reallytough in this society and in
this culture. And if you need toreach out for some help and some
(12:49):
support, you deserve it. We allneed to be held by safe other
people.
Dr Almitra Berry (12:55):
Yeah, I think about the again. Now I've got 10
more questions that I didn'tplan on asking you. So I'm
really gonna have to rein myselfin here. One of the things I
want to say before I forget iswe're talking about the
different avenues and ways thatpeople can get therapy,
certainly by reading your book.
But I also know that I have apopulation of there is a big
population in our community thatdoesn't read anymore, and so
(13:18):
however, we can get informationinto them. Obviously, podcasting
is one, but we often leave ourchildren. You know, if parents
are resistant, children don'thave the avenues. And as
educators, we may not know whatto do. So I'm going to this is a
non paid advertisement for aprior guest that I had on the
show, and that is a company bythe name of alongside. I always
(13:41):
think of the llama when I when Isee alongside. But if you are a
counselor or an educator andyou're looking for ways to reach
your children where theirparents may not get help and you
don't have anything set up inyour schools, I would encourage
you to check out alongside,which is an app that kids can
have on their phone you can haveon devices in the school, and
(14:02):
they literally create their ownthey have their own little llama
that they talk to, but it's anAI powered system where a kid
can simply tap into their app.
I'm having a really rough daytoday, and through that AI, they
go through a little bit of minitherapy. It may recommend that
they do some breathing exercisesor some meditation, but it has a
(14:25):
background built into it, sothat when it is signaling a
child is signaling that they aretruly in crisis, it's going to
connect them with an adult witha suicide hotline, with
resources and the school isalerted so that a human being, a
counselor, a responsible adulton campus, can get to that child
(14:45):
and intervene appropriately. SoI just, I can't say enough about
alongside as an app. I'll put alink in the notes down for that
information as well, if you'reif there's anyone listening
who's curious about it, but Ithink about the stress that our
teachers are under as. Well,there's so much going on. And
the one thing that keeps comingto mind every time I think about
mental health and stress andwellness in our school systems
(15:09):
right now is the violence, theschool shootings. Just name the
thing that is the number ofschool shootings and the fact
that every single child inAmerica schools right now has
had one or two or three,depending on when you're
listening to this active shooterdrills at their school. Now,
(15:31):
when I was a kid, we had duckand cover. I was in California.
We had it for two reasons. One,we had it for earthquakes. That
so that if there was anearthquake, we knew to get up
underneath our desks to, youknow, sort of bend over, crouch
down, cover our necks and makesure that we had we if we were
gonna get hit, we had coveredour head and our necks, right?
Cover those, those mostimportant, most important parts.
(15:53):
The other reason we had them,which, as I think back now, it
makes me laugh that it wasduring the Cold War between the
US and the Soviet Union, right?
Fellas, you remember that? Andso the idea that there would be
a nuclear blast and we weregoing to save ourselves by
ducking under our desk was, itwas absurd, right? But what our
kids, you know? And we were, wewere, I don't think we were
(16:13):
terribly traumatized by that,but it wasn't. We didn't live
under a daily threat or hearingin the news day after day. And
right now in this country, thelast time I looked there was a
school shooting every six weeks,and our kids are hearing about
this in the news. Our parentsare hearing about it. But
(16:35):
Phyllis, I have a grandson whois a junior in high school this
year, and my daughter was justlivid that the school had
enacted a cell phone ban thisyear, and her fear was, as many
parents fear is, what if there'sa school shooting and I can't
find my child and he can't sendme a text message? This, this
every day, additionalpsychological burden that's on
(16:59):
our children as young askindergarten. It's on every
parent. It's on every teacher.
How do we begin? This was not aquestion. I didn't, I didn't
prepare for this one, but I knowyou've got an answer. How do we
begin to heal, to to live withthis situation, because I don't
(17:23):
think it's going away anytimesoon, not without people voting
the right way and legislatorsenacting bans against assault
weapons. What do we do in termsof our mental health and living
in in this this current climate?
Unknown (17:39):
Well, I think one of the huge challenges of the
current climate, which I didn'tgrow up in. You know, this is
very different. What we'relooking at now is that there's a
lot of violence in homes, aswell as coming down from larger
institutions or policies thatdon't really protect people or
even advocate protecting people,which I think is very, very sad.
(18:03):
So there's this sort of thismergence of a lot of a lot of
families are under incrediblestress, and it plays out in
their home life and in childrenfeel that tension, whether it's
economic, as we were talkingabout, or racial or addiction,
or whatever it is. So familiesare already under stress,
exposure to a lot of what's inthe social media and the news is
(18:25):
an inordinate amount of stress.
The role models of behaviorcoming down from the top are
sometimes just horrific. So Ithink we have to address it on
all levels, which I think is anenormous challenge. You can't
just say there's one cause,because I think what's going on
in the home and in the communityand what's going on in the
country at large are reallyinterconnected and they reflect
(18:45):
each other. So one of the bigthings that I talk about, and
there is no one answer, but Ithink, I think the best minds,
if we bring the best mindstogether from science, from
psychology, from sociology, fromeducation, from medicine. You
know, because all these fieldsare really interconnected, our
(19:06):
bodies are are affected by thetensions, right? So high blood
Dr Almitra Berry (19:12):
pressure, all of these, these, there are so
many. There are so many physicalthings that we exhibit because
of the mental trauma and stress.
So
Unknown (19:25):
I think, you know, I think, instead of, I think one
of the big things, so again,there's like, a million answers
to your question, and I thinkthey all need to be looked at
together. But one of them is,you know, when there's a school
shooting, for instance, and someof this is out there, but I
don't think it's really like theconversation when there is a
school shooting, we have to lookdeeply into the history of the
(19:48):
shooter, because there is somuch evidence now that many of
these people who commit thesemass shootings are terribly
disturbed from. Like hadhorrible experiences in their
childhood, sexual abuse,physical abuse, religious or
racial persecution, poverty,abandonment and because people
(20:12):
are not born, mass shooters,they're not
they're made. They're made, verycarefully made. Yes, we
have to take responsibility as asociety for what we're
experiencing. We can't just keepblaming the shooter or even
blaming their family. Thesuffering in their families
often is also directly relatedto what's going on on a society
(20:34):
level and and I think so it's,it's it's not okay in my mind,
as a mental health professional,should just say, Oh, another
mass shooting. Five people werekilled. We have to talk about
the roots of this kind of severedisconnection. I mean, try to
even imagine which I can'ttotally the mental state of
(20:57):
someone who would pick up anassault weapon with with the
intent to go kill children thatthey don't even know? Yeah, yes.
It has to be a terriblydisturbed mental state, terribly
disconnected from their ownhumanity, probably in enormous
pain and rage, among otherthings. And we have to look at
(21:21):
the roots of that if we reallywant to solve this mass shooting
epidemic. Yes, I think you know,looking at an assault weapons
ban or gun control or backgroundchecks, all those things are
important, but the truth is, ifyou put an AK 47 in the hands of
a mentally healthy person.
They're not going to killanyone. Yeah, so it's not it's
(21:42):
not the weapons alone. It's themental state of a person who
feels like they have no otherway to somehow express their
rage or their pain or something.
And I think we just really haveto look at what is the mental
health of our country, andthat's why I wrote America in
therapy, like our country, needsto look at the roots of our own
(22:05):
violence. When a family comes totherapy, if there's been
violence, that's what we do. Wedon't do it with a hate, blame,
retaliation, humiliation lens.
We do it with a lens to try toheal What happened to you that
you hit your kid? What happenedto you that you went on a
screaming rampage? What happenedto you that you broke, that, you
(22:27):
know, smashed that thing infront of your wife or your
husband or whatever? Whathappened to you? What? What's
the pain in there? What's theanger in there? So
Dr Almitra Berry (22:39):
Phyllis, can I ask you to take what you just
said and boil that down. I havetwo things, but I want you to
sort of boil that down if we,if, if, if it's not a family,
but a school system, whetherit's a an elementary school, a
middle school, a high school oran entire school district,
right? If that's the family,what are the questions that the
(23:02):
That family has to ask ofitself? What are the questions
that our superintendents andprincipals, our school leaders
should be asking for theirinstitutions to be in therapy as
a family? Well,
Unknown (23:15):
it is, and one of, one of the things that I talk about
is that they're all families.
School is a system, a businessas a family system and a
government as a family system,because we take our family
dynamics with us wherever we go.
So people who are invested inbeing one up and being in power
usually seek positions of powerand authority, and people who
(23:35):
are used to submitting andfeeling like they have to obey
will often be very submissive inthose family systems. So I
think, I think we have to bringour knowledge of how families
actually work. What are thequalities of a healthy family?
What are the qualities, thesymptoms and the behaviors of a
dysfunctional or abusive family,and examine all of our family
(23:58):
systems. You know. So in aschool system, if a child is
being taunted or bullied becauseof the color of their skin or
their gender or their theirreligion or whatever about them,
and they try to get help andnobody's listening, that's this
one of the same dynamics in adysfunctional family, where you
(24:19):
can't get help, nobody who hearsyou, or they don't believe you,
or they don't take youseriously, or they blame you.
What did you do that causedthat? I mean, I've heard these
stories from parents about howtheir children were treated by
those in authority at the schoolwhere their complaints weren't
taken seriously. What did you dothat caused this? Oh, you know,
(24:39):
let it just roll off your back.
Don't pay any attention ifsomebody calls you some, you
know, racial slur, that kind ofthing. And so I think we have to
look at the same qualities. SoI'll just say now, and we know
this, what I say is that thepsychology and the best
psychotherapy hold the. Answersthat are hidden in plain sight.
(25:00):
We know everything I'm going tosay, we're just not committed to
implementing it. So say thatagain.
Dr Almitra Berry (25:09):
That is really important. Say it again. Please,
know exactly
Unknown (25:13):
what's needed. We're just not committed as a society
to implementing it. And it's, Ithink it's really true. I don't
have anything to say that youdon't know it's just not the way
we're operating. So in a healthyfamily, you feel loved, you feel
like you're wanted, you feellike you belong in a safe way,
that if you have a complaint,someone is going to listen to
(25:36):
you. You may not get what youwant, but you're going to be
heard with respect. You know, achild who wants to stay up till
midnight may not get that fromtheir parents, but they're also
not going to be smacked becausethey said that they're going to
be. You know, honey, I know youwant to stay up till midnight,
but you can't. You know, youhave school tomorrow. You got to
go to bed. You know what I'msaying, in a healthy family, you
(25:58):
know, if you have children,anybody out there has children,
you know, your children are verydifferent. One might be really
athletic, one's artistic, one'smore introverted, the other is a
big extrovert. You know, they'reborn with these with our natural
tendencies and variations. So ina healthy family, there's not
only tolerance of our diversity,but there's celebration of it.
(26:19):
Wow, you're amazing at baseballand you know, so and so just
loves pets. You know, we don'thave to be great. We just have
to be a firm for who we are in ahealthy family, we cooperate
with each other the very best wecan. And one of the things and
everything I'm saying, ofcourse, I want you to apply to
(26:39):
the family of America, or to aschool or to a business, and one
of the big, big, bigcharacteristics of a healthy
family is there is a commitmentto non violent communication and
conflict resolution. Healthyfamily. People don't smack each
other around, they don't beateach other up, they don't
sexually assault. They don'tlock somebody in a basement or
(27:01):
out of the house. We don't dothese violent things when we've
had a chance to be loved andfeel that we belong safely
ourselves, and when you seegeneration after generation of
violence passed down from one,you know, set of parents to
their children and on and on,you know that there's deep
healing that needs to happen forthe violence that generated the
(27:25):
violence. Just take that.
Violence begets violence. Weknow this, and yet, as a
country, we haven't adopted
Dr Almitra Berry (27:35):
the antidote.
The most violent nations in theworld, the highest incarceration
rate in the world, it is notworking. I know as a you know as
an educator, and I think back towhen I first started teaching,
before I learned that thefaculty lounge was not
necessarily the most mentallyhealthy place to hang out. But
here's what I do know, is thatfrom from being in that space is
(27:59):
that teachers, more than anyoneelse, recognize which children
are hurting right because oftheir behaviors. I know that
teachers can tell you whenthey've read the paper where
there's been something horriblehappened, and that was a child
who had passed through theirclassrooms. I can't tell you how
many times I heard someone say,well, I could have told you that
(28:22):
about that one, right? My appealright now to educators,
specifically, when you know thatyou feel that about that child,
whether they're in kindergartenor fifth grade or a senior in
high school, that there needs tobe a mechanism administrators
for teachers to be able to goand say, there's something going
(28:46):
on with this child, right? Ifeel it. I see it. I can tell
from their behaviors, this iswhat they're doing, and there
needs to be an intervention. ButI think we are so short of
counselors in our schools, or ofways to address that for fear of
whatever that it's just nothappening, and what happens with
(29:08):
that child or to that child, orwhat that child does to someone
else further down the road.
Instead of us saying, I couldhave told you about that one, we
need to say we did everything wecould, because we could see that
coming,
Unknown (29:26):
right and and I would, I 100% agree with you, one of
the horrifying things that Iread, I looked up a little bit
about the Uvalde shooter when Iwas writing my book, And he
before he committed that massmurder. His nickname was the
school shooter. How much moreobvious could it possibly be? So
(29:49):
I totally agree with that, and Ithink, but I think we have to
embrace a spirit of this kidneeds help, not with a bad kid.
This kid needs help. And mostlikely, his family or her
family, needs help. And I thinkwe have to look at it like that.
Instead of getting out. We haveto get out of this blame and
(30:10):
retaliation kind of mindset likethis is a bad kid, and it's just
a bad family. We have to helppeople, and I think more people
would come forward. If that thespirit that we're going to help
you, you might have to restrainyou because you're a danger, but
the the goal is still to helpyou and restore you to some
(30:32):
sense of inner safety and outersafety.
Dr Almitra Berry (30:36):
Yeah, you know, and I have these
conversations, Phyllis, and justin in listening to what you're
saying, even though it's been 20years since I've 20 years, yeah,
20 little over 20 years sinceI've been a classroom teacher, I
can still see those childrenthat I was concerned about from
(30:56):
a Mental health perspective. Ican still very vividly see my
own terror at because of thebehavior of a student that I had
who, in his essay spewed a lotof ugly, racist things and said
that essentially, he was goingto make sure that me and all of
(31:17):
my kind were wiped off the faceof the earth. I did take action.
I did take it to administration.
They removed him from myclassroom. Did not provide any
assistance to him, and it wasjust a few weeks later that he
beat his mother to a pulp,right? We know, and that's why I
say teachers. We know whenthose, when we have children who
are hurting, who are disturbed,for lack of a better term, that
(31:40):
there is something going on thatneeds an intervention, and we
need to find ways to interveneand provide assistance so that
no one gets hurt, including thechild themself. Absolutely
Unknown (31:54):
and we really need to create a culture that is not
blaming and shaming andretaliatory, which is the
culture that a lot of us areliving in right now and hearing
proliferated in the media and ina culture of healing, like you
were born an essential,beautiful human being, and
whatever happened to you, we'regoing to look into and address,
Dr Almitra Berry (32:17):
yeah, I think one of the, I think one, one of
the challenges with that. And Ialways, you know, sort of
horribly jokingly say that, youknow, Florida is like the gift
that keeps on giving in thecurrent political environment
when it comes to education. Butthere are states where socio
emotional wellness, where we'redeveloping our own socio
(32:40):
emotional skills as children isforbidden as instruction,
instructional content in theclassroom that we cannot have.
We cannot teach children thoseskills to learn those what we
call soft skills as an adult,right? How do I get along with
others and expressing myself anddealing with my own challenges
(33:01):
and traumas and pains andwhatever that we cannot teach
that in the classroom.
Unknown (33:08):
I think that's a tragedy. I think it's a tragedy
for all those children. I thinkit's a tragedy for America. I
think it's a tragedy for theworld. Because really, and this
is what was mind boggling to me,the risks of not teaching us how
to get along with each othergrow higher every single day. I
was on a call with someone justlast week, I think it was or the
(33:31):
week before, and while I was onthe call with them, their child
called and said there was a bombthreat at their school or
shooting threat at their school,and they were terrified. It's,
it's while I was writing my bookabout the mass shootings, a news
flash came up on my computerthat there had been yet another
school shooting. And I think, Ithink what, what, what I really
(33:56):
had wanted to add in when I wastalking about the children that
I worked with that were reallysuffering from conflict in the
home. We're all suffering fromthe conflict in our country.
Yes, yeah.
To them. Children look at, youknow, this child's calling their
parents on their cell phonesaying, in a threat against my
school, come get me.
Dr Almitra Berry (34:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's beyond. I know schoolshootings is, is probably the
most traumatic thing we canthink of that's impacting our
children in schools. Butthere's, there's another one
that's a little bit softer, andI want to make sure that we
touch on that, and that is thestress that surrounds something
that is as as common, it'severywhere, and that is high
stakes testing. As we get intotesting season each year, and
(34:41):
the way that we approach it, theway that test scores are sort of
held over the heads of schooldistricts and administrators,
and the stress that teachersthen for fear of their own jobs,
right, that the teachers areunder stress, but then we push
that. Stress down onto thechildren. And so you think about
for a child, if testing startsat second grade in most states,
(35:07):
third grade by third grade atall states that for nine years,
every single year, likeclockwork, they can expect to
have this tremendous amount ofstress placed on them for a
flipping test. Um,
Unknown (35:27):
well, I think we're testing the wrong things. Yeah,
find out about your math skillsand your social studies skills,
and, you know, whatever youknow, your grammar skills. Find
out about those things, fine,but that's not what keeps people
alive. What keeps people aliveand healthy is their human
relations. And so I think we'retesting, you know, I think we're
(35:48):
not measuring what we actuallyreally need to measure. I think
we're not teaching a lot of whatneeds to be taught, like you
were talking about, you know,taking human relations out of
the curriculum. What could bemore deleterious to the child,
to the school and to the humanrace? I don't know. And that's
why I wrote a whole book aboutmental health. It's like, I feel
(36:09):
like it is the number onenational priority that we're
just missing. We're missing. Andso, yeah, I think I mean, and
there are actually a lot ofthings that can't be tested and
don't need to be tested. Youdon't need to test how well
somebody gets along with eachother, you know, with with other
people. We need to just fosterthat environment, and we need to
(36:31):
foster an environment whereyou're not judged by the score
you get on that test, you know.
And it's a place for there's aplace for learning your math
skills, and especially if youwant to become an engineer or a
chemist or a doctor, you needthose skills, and they're
important, and we need them intheir place, in their place. Of
how much are we actually safefor one another, serving one
(36:53):
another with the skills that wehave, or are we like cutthroat
to get into an Ivy Leagueschool? Yeah,
Dr Almitra Berry (37:02):
I talk about and write about in my book,
matter of fact, the upcomingbook that'll be out this spring,
the components, or the elementsof psychological safety in
creating an inclusive classroomand making every child feel
valued and welcomed and affirmedfor who they are and just being
a human being. That's right,that that first layer of
(37:24):
psychological safety has to bein place in every single
classroom. That's a benefit, notjust to the children, but to the
teacher as well. That's having aspace that you want to come to
work in every single day, andthen, you know, yes, that needs
to sort of, it's not filter,but, you know, be siphoned up
(37:45):
the the the system of schools,so that school as as a whole is
a psychologically safe to be,safe space, to be and to work,
to show up every day, and foradministrators that the district
environment is psychologicallysafe, but if we don't do those
things, we cannot, my opinion,we cannot begin to heal as a
(38:11):
classroom, as a school, as adistrict, a community, a state,
a nation.
Unknown (38:17):
And I also think it's the best learning environment,
when people feel safe whenchildren feel safe, when they
feel like they're wanted andthey belong, and they come into
the room and it's like, hi. Youknow, so glad you're here today
and we missed you because youwere out sick. That's the best
learning environment for all ofus, whether we're children or
adults. You know, that's wherewe thrive, and that's why we
talk about the characteristicsof a healthy family, because it
(38:41):
produces people who are loving,who are kind, who want to work
out the conflicts withouthurting each other. And we can
start teaching that in ourclassrooms, not even as a course
necessarily, but just as a wayof being right. And then the
other thing that just to goalong with that, if there's when
there's children who havelearned prejudice, who have
(39:01):
learned hatred in their home,who come to school and then
target, you know, a minority ora marginalized other child for
abuse, or some kind of, youknow, slurs or whatever they do
to taunt and provoke, andsomeone reports that that child
needs help, yes, well, you know,not just you know, well, often
(39:24):
it's ignored and nothing happensor they're suspended. But that's
not the answer. The answer isto, like, look into where
they're learning these hatefulbehaviors and really try to
address that on a family level.
And of course, that's a massivejob. But what better job do we
have?
Dr Almitra Berry (39:45):
There's that and there's restorative
practices in schools as well,right? And if we can marry those
two things, I think that wouldbe a tremendous, tremendous help
to healing taking place in ourin our in our schools, in our
classrooms. Yeah. Phyllis isthere? You talk about the
characteristics of a healthyfamily, and I want to make sure
(40:05):
that my listeners are wrappingtheir heads around maybe one or
two that are most important. Canyou give us what you think are
the most two most importantcharacteristics there? Well, one
Unknown (40:15):
of the things that I want to say is nobody does it
perfectly. We all have our ownwounds that we're working out.
So there's no ideal way to bethe perfect family, because
we're just not that. We're humanbeings. We have our own wounds
that we're healing. We have ourown conditioning that we're
still working with. So I'm nottrying to hold up a model of
perfection. I think one of thecharacteristics of a healthy
(40:38):
family that is fundamentallyloving, kind, supportive and
committed to non violence. Let'sjust say one of the
characteristics is that when wefall down, when we're not our
best selves, when we did yell atour kid and we didn't mean to or
we weren't as sensitive tosomebody in pain as we would
like to be, we come back and wetry again. There's no
(41:01):
perfection. There's theperfection is that we get up and
we try again and we try to do itbetter. You know, I say we love
each other and we keep learninghow to love each other better.
Dr Almitra Berry (41:12):
Wow, that's beautiful. I ask every guest the
same question. There's this oneconsistent question, and it
comes as sort of paraphrase fromDr Angela Davis, who said that
she is changing the things shecannot accept. So I ask every
guest, what is that somethingthat you cannot accept? And then
what should listeners be doingto help support changing that?
Unknown (41:35):
I think the one thing that I just cannot accept is
violence. I just cannot acceptthat. And I feel like it's I
really feel like if there's onechallenge for the human race,
Americans, in our families, inour government and in the world,
it's that we have to find a wayto resolve our differences and
our conflicts without violence.
I think that's the biggestchallenge, because the ways that
(41:57):
we can hurt each other now,could cause the whole human race
to go extinct? And do we needmore motivation than that? I
just don't think so.
Dr Almitra Berry (42:09):
Wow, that is beautiful and deep. Give us all
something to think about. I'mgoing to make sure that we have
all of your information as wellas the link to the book on
Amazon down in the show notes.
So folks again, the book isAmerica, America in therapy. Dr,
Phyllis, leave it, Phyllis,thank you. Thank you so much for
joining me today, and I hopeeveryone takes heed of the
(42:31):
things that Phyllis has said andwork to find ways to bring
healing to your community andthen join me again next episode.
As always, if you've got aquestion, a topic you want
covered, a special request,another question for Phyllis or
any other guests who's been onthe show, make sure that you
text me, because I do want tohear those stories. And then
(42:53):
always remember, don't worryabout the things you cannot
change. Change the things youcan no longer accept and that's
a wrap for today's episode ofthe 3e podcast. Now here's how
you can make a real difference.
First, smash that subscribebutton. It's free. It's easy,
just do it. Second, share theshow with anyone you know who
(43:14):
cares about education. Andthird, consider becoming a
supporter of the show. Together,we're not just talking about
change. We're making it happen.
Make a donation today to be partof that mission and change, and
I'll catch you next time you.
If you're a parent, teacher or school leader and
(00:03):
you're sick and tired of thefrustration, anger and unfair
treatment of children at highrisk in our public schools, then
perhaps it's time for all of usto do something about it. In
this podcast, Dr amitra Berrybrings you tips, tools,
strategies and tactics to buildsuccessful solutions while
(00:25):
touching, moving and inspiringall of us to transform our
schools so that every childthrives. Here's your host, Dr
Bennett,
Dr Almitra Berry (00:38):
hey, there equity warriors. Today, I
welcome Phyllis Levitt to the 3epodcast. Phyllis is a seasoned
psychotherapist with over 30years of experience. She's
recently authored a book calledAmerica in therapy, a new
approach to hope and healing fora nation in crisis. She's here
to share her unique perspectiveon applying therapeutic
(00:59):
principles to heal our nation'sgrowing divisions that are
impacting our children andcreate a more loving and
sustainable world for them toinherit. Phyllis, thanks so much
for joining me today. Well,
Unknown (01:11):
thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be
here with you.
Dr Almitra Berry (01:16):
Can you start by sharing, and you know, I
don't do a full bio, andeverybody our listeners know
that that bio is in the link,but I'd like for you to share
something from your life that ispivotal, that helps shape why
you do what you do, how itinfluenced your work, and how
you came up to write the bookAmerica in therapy. Because Lord
knows we need it. Lord knows we
Unknown (01:37):
need it. I agree. Yeah.
I mean, I, like so many people,had some very significant trauma
in my early childhood thatreally shaped my life in ways
that I had no way to understand.
Nobody talked about psychology.
I actually didn't remember mostof what happened to me until I
was much older, and so I had noidea why I had the pain that I
(01:59):
had, why I felt so alone in themidst of other people, and I
really came to believe thatthere was just something
intrinsically wrong with me. Andit wasn't until I began to
remember what happened and didsome significant therapy myself
that I started to come out fromunder the shadow of some of the
very painful things that hadhappened to me, but also it made
(02:22):
me realize how many people inthis world are suffering with no
access to either understandingwhat, what's bothering them,
what's causing their dysfunctionor their inability to really
thrive in life, and many peoplewho don't even get rescue from
what hurts them, and they'reongoingly symptomatic, and we
(02:42):
live in a society that tends toblame our symptoms our victims.
We tend to blame our victims fortheir symptoms without really
understanding how sensitive weare as human beings and how
deeply we can be impacted by theharmful behaviors of other
people. So out of my own healingprocess, I became a therapist,
(03:04):
and then I decided to write thisbook, because I worked so much
with family systems. Whetheryou're working with an
individual person or a family ora child or a couple, you're
always working with their familysystems. What conditioned them?
What were the role models ofbehavior, what were the
significant experiences peoplehad growing up that really
(03:26):
shaped the way that they feelabout themselves, the beliefs
they have, the expectations theyhave for themselves and for
other people. And the moredysfunctional or harmful those
family dynamics are, the moredysfunctional we tend to be, not
everybody, and some people arelike miracles, and they just
rise from the ashes on theirown. But what I realized being a
(03:48):
therapist is that many morepeople don't, and we have some
policies and practices going onin our homes, in our communities
and from our largestinstitutions, including
government, that really hurt alot of people and then blame
them because they're notthriving in our society. So one
of you know one of the thingsthat I love, and I love that
(04:10):
you're talking about education.
I wish that someone had taught apsychology course when I was in
high school. Our human relationsare the most important thing
that we can actually focus on,how we treat each other, how we
can learn to treat each otherbetter. I think should be, you
(04:31):
know, just up there withreading, writing and arithmetic
and all the things that we thatwe do teach, that are obviously
important. But I think humanrelations really needs to take
center stage today.
Dr Almitra Berry (04:43):
Yeah, you know, Phyllis, one of the things
I talk about all the time, whatI've written about, it's in my
books, is that the culture ofour classrooms is key to our
children feeling comfortable andwanting to learn. And you know,
even though I say I went to aTeacher's College. College back
in the Dark Ages. At this point,it was several decades ago,
clearly, but there was only oneI we only took one class in
(05:08):
educational psychology, onecourse in ed psych, which did
not deal with mental health ofour children or their
backgrounds. Now maybe it'schanged. I always invite my
listeners if I'm wrong, ifthere's something new. If
there's something I ought toknow, direct message me. Send me
a message. I use that, that linkdown in the show notes to send
me a text, but get a hold of meand let me know what's going on.
(05:31):
And you know, maybe even come onthe show. But I just don't think
it's enough, given what ishappening in our society today,
and as we talk about aboutpsychotherapy and healing and
trauma in the context of K 12education, I want to sort of
hone in on a couple of thingsthat I'm hoping that you can
help my listeners, andparticularly not just the
(05:53):
educators, but the parents wholisten to this show as well. And
so another thing I oftenhighlight, and I'm hoping that
you can support me in this isthat black and brown communities
in particular tend to poopootherapy. And so if we're talking
about many of our mostmarginalized learners, not just
(06:14):
our black and brown andindigenous populations, but our
LGD, LGBTQ students as well, andour children that are are trying
to figure out who they are whenthey're there. They're dealing
with these feelings that theyhave, that people tell them are
not normal. What do parentslet's start with them. What
(06:35):
should our parents be doing?
Unknown (06:38):
Well, one of the things, I mean, a couple of
things I want to say. I hope Idon't forget them. One of them
is, is that I think many, many,many people feel powerless in
our society, and more and moreso as power gets held at the
very top, as more as fewerpeople have more control over
(06:58):
more people and as the generalpopulation, in some ways, has
less and less of a voice, not inall ways, certainly like
podcasting and writing books andtalking and, you know, starting
movements, there's, there'sstill a place for us to have a
voice. But many people reallyfeel powerless, economically,
racially, religiously, genderwise, as you're saying. And I
(07:22):
think that makes therapy feelthreatening, because our
association with therapy andhealing, the healing arts, is
somehow that it's still, I thinkthe stigma is still that it's a
sign of weakness. You shouldn'tneed anybody you know, pull
yourself up by your bootstraps,be tough and, and I think many
people feel that they have to betough in this society to survive
(07:46):
and, and I think what manypeople don't understand is that
going to therapy and reallydealing with what wounded you
and trying to heal the worsteffects of the things that
happen to you with other people.
Because genuinely, it's whatgenerally, it's with other
people that we get hurt isactually takes great strength.
It takes great strength, ittakes courage. It's hard work,
(08:07):
and it's worth every bit of it,because inside, I truly believe
that inside every human being isan essential self that is loving
and kind, if given theopportunity to express
themselves and their fullpotential in the world. And so
you know, for your listeners, Ijust want to say that for people
who have felt like they have tobe tough in order to survive,
(08:30):
getting help to heal is actuallya sign of strength and embrace
it, because we need each otherto heal. Nobody's an island. I
know because I felt like anisland and it was a horrible
place to be. It's just, it'sbecause we don't have the
answers ourselves. And one ofthe things that I've learned as
(08:51):
a therapist is that, as I said,most of us have been hurt by
other people who you know cameby their dysfunctional behaviors
from their own wounding thatthey never got a chance to heal.
And we have to heal with otherpeople. We need the love and
belonging and safety and valuingby other people to heal. So
(09:11):
that's one of the things that Iwanted to say about that. And
then you you were talking aboutacceptance of Sorry, what was
the second part of yourquestion?
Dr Almitra Berry (09:25):
Well, I wanted you to talk to like to parents,
but also to educators in thisenvironment that we're in, I
don't know. And I said, then I'mso intently listening, hanging
on every word that you're sayingabout what we should do, and
then I've got other questionspopping up in my head. Don't
worry about it. We'll come backto it for sure. I'm sure it'll
circle around, if you're likeme, soon as you're not trying to
(09:46):
remember what it was gonna be.
Oh, now, now I remember. So feelfree to interrupt um, I think
Unknown (09:53):
about, oh, I do know. I do remember. So what I wanted to
share with parents is this, buta. Apart from what's going on in
the culture that is reallyimpacting both parents and
children, from social media,from politics, from the role
models that we're seeing, someof which are highly
dysfunctional. I started mypractice working with children.
(10:17):
I wanted to just work withchildren. That was my commitment
when I began, but what I foundwas 99.9% of the children that
were referred to me for therapywere suffering from conflict in
their home. There wasn't reallyanything wrong with these
children, but they were highlysymptomatic, bed Wendy, night
(10:38):
terrors, aggression towardssiblings and other children
becoming a bully or isolatingand having no friends, having
excessive fears, getting intodrugs and alcohol, young and you
know, associating with kids whowere also suffering and acting
out in in disturbed ways. Andevery, almost every single one
(11:00):
of those children was sufferingfrom a very conflictual divorce,
ongoing fighting in the home,addiction in the home,
unavailability a parent who hadleft, there was a divorce, and
the parent just left, and thechildren felt abandoned, but
most of it was conflict in thehome, ongoing conflict. And so
(11:20):
the work really became with theparents. There wasn't really
anything wrong with thesechildren. They were showing the
symptoms of the familydysfunction, and so that's one
of the things that I really wantto talk to parents about,
because a lot of these parentsreally didn't understand that
they're fighting between eachother or the tension in the home
(11:40):
or the unresolved divorce or thecustody battle was tearing their
children apart, and they wereshowing the symptoms of the
family pain. So often in theschool system, you see these
kids acting out or becomingisolated or associating with
other kids who are acting out orjust failing to thrive in school
period, because their littlepsyches are overcome with the
(12:04):
distress that they're sufferingfrom at home, and to say nothing
of poverty or racialdiscrimination that's happening
on a larger scale or in theschool system, yeah. So one of
my messages is to parents, isyou're having an incredible
impact on your children, and ifyou're suffering, if you're
depressed, if you're in highlevels of conflict, if you're
(12:26):
suffering from addiction or highlevels of anxiety or your own
social isolation, the one of thevery best things you can do for
your children is heal yourself,get help, if not for yourself,
for the sake of your Children,but really for both and you
deserve it. Parenting is reallytough in this society and in
this culture. And if you need toreach out for some help and some
(12:49):
support, you deserve it. We allneed to be held by safe other
people.
Dr Almitra Berry (12:55):
Yeah, I think about the again. Now I've got 10
more questions that I didn'tplan on asking you. So I'm
really gonna have to rein myselfin here. One of the things I
want to say before I forget iswe're talking about the
different avenues and ways thatpeople can get therapy,
certainly by reading your book.
But I also know that I have apopulation of there is a big
population in our community thatdoesn't read anymore, and so
(13:18):
however, we can get informationinto them. Obviously, podcasting
is one, but we often leave ourchildren. You know, if parents
are resistant, children don'thave the avenues. And as
educators, we may not know whatto do. So I'm going to this is a
non paid advertisement for aprior guest that I had on the
show, and that is a company bythe name of alongside. I always
(13:41):
think of the llama when I when Isee alongside. But if you are a
counselor or an educator andyou're looking for ways to reach
your children where theirparents may not get help and you
don't have anything set up inyour schools, I would encourage
you to check out alongside,which is an app that kids can
have on their phone you can haveon devices in the school, and
(14:02):
they literally create their ownthey have their own little llama
that they talk to, but it's anAI powered system where a kid
can simply tap into their app.
I'm having a really rough daytoday, and through that AI, they
go through a little bit of minitherapy. It may recommend that
they do some breathing exercisesor some meditation, but it has a
(14:25):
background built into it, sothat when it is signaling a
child is signaling that they aretruly in crisis, it's going to
connect them with an adult witha suicide hotline, with
resources and the school isalerted so that a human being, a
counselor, a responsible adulton campus, can get to that child
(14:45):
and intervene appropriately. SoI just, I can't say enough about
alongside as an app. I'll put alink in the notes down for that
information as well, if you'reif there's anyone listening
who's curious about it, but Ithink about the stress that our
teachers are under as. Well,there's so much going on. And
the one thing that keeps comingto mind every time I think about
mental health and stress andwellness in our school systems
(15:09):
right now is the violence, theschool shootings. Just name the
thing that is the number ofschool shootings and the fact
that every single child inAmerica schools right now has
had one or two or three,depending on when you're
listening to this active shooterdrills at their school. Now,
(15:31):
when I was a kid, we had duckand cover. I was in California.
We had it for two reasons. One,we had it for earthquakes. That
so that if there was anearthquake, we knew to get up
underneath our desks to, youknow, sort of bend over, crouch
down, cover our necks and makesure that we had we if we were
gonna get hit, we had coveredour head and our necks, right?
Cover those, those mostimportant, most important parts.
(15:53):
The other reason we had them,which, as I think back now, it
makes me laugh that it wasduring the Cold War between the
US and the Soviet Union, right?
Fellas, you remember that? Andso the idea that there would be
a nuclear blast and we weregoing to save ourselves by
ducking under our desk was, itwas absurd, right? But what our
kids, you know? And we were, wewere, I don't think we were
(16:13):
terribly traumatized by that,but it wasn't. We didn't live
under a daily threat or hearingin the news day after day. And
right now in this country, thelast time I looked there was a
school shooting every six weeks,and our kids are hearing about
this in the news. Our parentsare hearing about it. But
(16:35):
Phyllis, I have a grandson whois a junior in high school this
year, and my daughter was justlivid that the school had
enacted a cell phone ban thisyear, and her fear was, as many
parents fear is, what if there'sa school shooting and I can't
find my child and he can't sendme a text message? This, this
every day, additionalpsychological burden that's on
(16:59):
our children as young askindergarten. It's on every
parent. It's on every teacher.
How do we begin? This was not aquestion. I didn't, I didn't
prepare for this one, but I knowyou've got an answer. How do we
begin to heal, to to live withthis situation, because I don't
(17:23):
think it's going away anytimesoon, not without people voting
the right way and legislatorsenacting bans against assault
weapons. What do we do in termsof our mental health and living
in in this this current climate?
Unknown (17:39):
Well, I think one of the huge challenges of the
current climate, which I didn'tgrow up in. You know, this is
very different. What we'relooking at now is that there's a
lot of violence in homes, aswell as coming down from larger
institutions or policies thatdon't really protect people or
even advocate protecting people,which I think is very, very sad.
(18:03):
So there's this sort of thismergence of a lot of a lot of
families are under incrediblestress, and it plays out in
their home life and in childrenfeel that tension, whether it's
economic, as we were talkingabout, or racial or addiction,
or whatever it is. So familiesare already under stress,
exposure to a lot of what's inthe social media and the news is
(18:25):
an inordinate amount of stress.
The role models of behaviorcoming down from the top are
sometimes just horrific. So Ithink we have to address it on
all levels, which I think is anenormous challenge. You can't
just say there's one cause,because I think what's going on
in the home and in the communityand what's going on in the
country at large are reallyinterconnected and they reflect
(18:45):
each other. So one of the bigthings that I talk about, and
there is no one answer, but Ithink, I think the best minds,
if we bring the best mindstogether from science, from
psychology, from sociology, fromeducation, from medicine. You
know, because all these fieldsare really interconnected, our
(19:06):
bodies are are affected by thetensions, right? So high blood
Dr Almitra Berry (19:12):
pressure, all of these, these, there are so
many. There are so many physicalthings that we exhibit because
of the mental trauma and stress.
So
Unknown (19:25):
I think, you know, I think, instead of, I think one
of the big things, so again,there's like, a million answers
to your question, and I thinkthey all need to be looked at
together. But one of them is,you know, when there's a school
shooting, for instance, and someof this is out there, but I
don't think it's really like theconversation when there is a
school shooting, we have to lookdeeply into the history of the
(19:48):
shooter, because there is somuch evidence now that many of
these people who commit thesemass shootings are terribly
disturbed from. Like hadhorrible experiences in their
childhood, sexual abuse,physical abuse, religious or
racial persecution, poverty,abandonment and because people
(20:12):
are not born, mass shooters,they're not
they're made. They're made, verycarefully made. Yes, we
have to take responsibility as asociety for what we're
experiencing. We can't just keepblaming the shooter or even
blaming their family. Thesuffering in their families
often is also directly relatedto what's going on on a society
(20:34):
level and and I think so it's,it's it's not okay in my mind,
as a mental health professional,should just say, Oh, another
mass shooting. Five people werekilled. We have to talk about
the roots of this kind of severedisconnection. I mean, try to
even imagine which I can'ttotally the mental state of
(20:57):
someone who would pick up anassault weapon with with the
intent to go kill children thatthey don't even know? Yeah, yes.
It has to be a terriblydisturbed mental state, terribly
disconnected from their ownhumanity, probably in enormous
pain and rage, among otherthings. And we have to look at
(21:21):
the roots of that if we reallywant to solve this mass shooting
epidemic. Yes, I think you know,looking at an assault weapons
ban or gun control or backgroundchecks, all those things are
important, but the truth is, ifyou put an AK 47 in the hands of
a mentally healthy person.
They're not going to killanyone. Yeah, so it's not it's
(21:42):
not the weapons alone. It's themental state of a person who
feels like they have no otherway to somehow express their
rage or their pain or something.
And I think we just really haveto look at what is the mental
health of our country, andthat's why I wrote America in
therapy, like our country, needsto look at the roots of our own
(22:05):
violence. When a family comes totherapy, if there's been
violence, that's what we do. Wedon't do it with a hate, blame,
retaliation, humiliation lens.
We do it with a lens to try toheal What happened to you that
you hit your kid? What happenedto you that you went on a
screaming rampage? What happenedto you that you broke, that, you
(22:27):
know, smashed that thing infront of your wife or your
husband or whatever? Whathappened to you? What? What's
the pain in there? What's theanger in there? So
Dr Almitra Berry (22:39):
Phyllis, can I ask you to take what you just
said and boil that down. I havetwo things, but I want you to
sort of boil that down if we,if, if, if it's not a family,
but a school system, whetherit's a an elementary school, a
middle school, a high school oran entire school district,
right? If that's the family,what are the questions that the
(23:02):
That family has to ask ofitself? What are the questions
that our superintendents andprincipals, our school leaders
should be asking for theirinstitutions to be in therapy as
a family? Well,
Unknown (23:15):
it is, and one of, one of the things that I talk about
is that they're all families.
School is a system, a businessas a family system and a
government as a family system,because we take our family
dynamics with us wherever we go.
So people who are invested inbeing one up and being in power
usually seek positions of powerand authority, and people who
(23:35):
are used to submitting andfeeling like they have to obey
will often be very submissive inthose family systems. So I
think, I think we have to bringour knowledge of how families
actually work. What are thequalities of a healthy family?
What are the qualities, thesymptoms and the behaviors of a
dysfunctional or abusive family,and examine all of our family
(23:58):
systems. You know. So in aschool system, if a child is
being taunted or bullied becauseof the color of their skin or
their gender or their theirreligion or whatever about them,
and they try to get help andnobody's listening, that's this
one of the same dynamics in adysfunctional family, where you
(24:19):
can't get help, nobody who hearsyou, or they don't believe you,
or they don't take youseriously, or they blame you.
What did you do that causedthat? I mean, I've heard these
stories from parents about howtheir children were treated by
those in authority at the schoolwhere their complaints weren't
taken seriously. What did you dothat caused this? Oh, you know,
(24:39):
let it just roll off your back.
Don't pay any attention ifsomebody calls you some, you
know, racial slur, that kind ofthing. And so I think we have to
look at the same qualities. SoI'll just say now, and we know
this, what I say is that thepsychology and the best
psychotherapy hold the. Answersthat are hidden in plain sight.
(25:00):
We know everything I'm going tosay, we're just not committed to
implementing it. So say thatagain.
Dr Almitra Berry (25:09):
That is really important. Say it again. Please,
know exactly
Unknown (25:13):
what's needed. We're just not committed as a society
to implementing it. And it's, Ithink it's really true. I don't
have anything to say that youdon't know it's just not the way
we're operating. So in a healthyfamily, you feel loved, you feel
like you're wanted, you feellike you belong in a safe way,
that if you have a complaint,someone is going to listen to
(25:36):
you. You may not get what youwant, but you're going to be
heard with respect. You know, achild who wants to stay up till
midnight may not get that fromtheir parents, but they're also
not going to be smacked becausethey said that they're going to
be. You know, honey, I know youwant to stay up till midnight,
but you can't. You know, youhave school tomorrow. You got to
go to bed. You know what I'msaying, in a healthy family, you
(25:58):
know, if you have children,anybody out there has children,
you know, your children are verydifferent. One might be really
athletic, one's artistic, one'smore introverted, the other is a
big extrovert. You know, they'reborn with these with our natural
tendencies and variations. So ina healthy family, there's not
only tolerance of our diversity,but there's celebration of it.
(26:19):
Wow, you're amazing at baseballand you know, so and so just
loves pets. You know, we don'thave to be great. We just have
to be a firm for who we are in ahealthy family, we cooperate
with each other the very best wecan. And one of the things and
everything I'm saying, ofcourse, I want you to apply to
(26:39):
the family of America, or to aschool or to a business, and one
of the big, big, bigcharacteristics of a healthy
family is there is a commitmentto non violent communication and
conflict resolution. Healthyfamily. People don't smack each
other around, they don't beateach other up, they don't
sexually assault. They don'tlock somebody in a basement or
(27:01):
out of the house. We don't dothese violent things when we've
had a chance to be loved andfeel that we belong safely
ourselves, and when you seegeneration after generation of
violence passed down from one,you know, set of parents to
their children and on and on,you know that there's deep
healing that needs to happen forthe violence that generated the
(27:25):
violence. Just take that.
Violence begets violence. Weknow this, and yet, as a
country, we haven't adopted
Dr Almitra Berry (27:35):
the antidote.
The most violent nations in theworld, the highest incarceration
rate in the world, it is notworking. I know as a you know as
an educator, and I think back towhen I first started teaching,
before I learned that thefaculty lounge was not
necessarily the most mentallyhealthy place to hang out. But
here's what I do know, is thatfrom from being in that space is
(27:59):
that teachers, more than anyoneelse, recognize which children
are hurting right because oftheir behaviors. I know that
teachers can tell you whenthey've read the paper where
there's been something horriblehappened, and that was a child
who had passed through theirclassrooms. I can't tell you how
many times I heard someone say,well, I could have told you that
(28:22):
about that one, right? My appealright now to educators,
specifically, when you know thatyou feel that about that child,
whether they're in kindergartenor fifth grade or a senior in
high school, that there needs tobe a mechanism administrators
for teachers to be able to goand say, there's something going
(28:46):
on with this child, right? Ifeel it. I see it. I can tell
from their behaviors, this iswhat they're doing, and there
needs to be an intervention. ButI think we are so short of
counselors in our schools, or ofways to address that for fear of
whatever that it's just nothappening, and what happens with
(29:08):
that child or to that child, orwhat that child does to someone
else further down the road.
Instead of us saying, I couldhave told you about that one, we
need to say we did everything wecould, because we could see that
coming,
Unknown (29:26):
right and and I would, I 100% agree with you, one of
the horrifying things that Iread, I looked up a little bit
about the Uvalde shooter when Iwas writing my book, And he
before he committed that massmurder. His nickname was the
school shooter. How much moreobvious could it possibly be? So
(29:49):
I totally agree with that, and Ithink, but I think we have to
embrace a spirit of this kidneeds help, not with a bad kid.
This kid needs help. And mostlikely, his family or her
family, needs help. And I thinkwe have to look at it like that.
Instead of getting out. We haveto get out of this blame and
(30:10):
retaliation kind of mindset likethis is a bad kid, and it's just
a bad family. We have to helppeople, and I think more people
would come forward. If that thespirit that we're going to help
you, you might have to restrainyou because you're a danger, but
the the goal is still to helpyou and restore you to some
(30:32):
sense of inner safety and outersafety.
Dr Almitra Berry (30:36):
Yeah, you know, and I have these
conversations, Phyllis, and justin in listening to what you're
saying, even though it's been 20years since I've 20 years, yeah,
20 little over 20 years sinceI've been a classroom teacher, I
can still see those childrenthat I was concerned about from
(30:56):
a Mental health perspective. Ican still very vividly see my
own terror at because of thebehavior of a student that I had
who, in his essay spewed a lotof ugly, racist things and said
that essentially, he was goingto make sure that me and all of
(31:17):
my kind were wiped off the faceof the earth. I did take action.
I did take it to administration.
They removed him from myclassroom. Did not provide any
assistance to him, and it wasjust a few weeks later that he
beat his mother to a pulp,right? We know, and that's why I
say teachers. We know whenthose, when we have children who
are hurting, who are disturbed,for lack of a better term, that
(31:40):
there is something going on thatneeds an intervention, and we
need to find ways to interveneand provide assistance so that
no one gets hurt, including thechild themself. Absolutely
Unknown (31:54):
and we really need to create a culture that is not
blaming and shaming andretaliatory, which is the
culture that a lot of us areliving in right now and hearing
proliferated in the media and ina culture of healing, like you
were born an essential,beautiful human being, and
whatever happened to you, we'regoing to look into and address,
Dr Almitra Berry (32:17):
yeah, I think one of the, I think one, one of
the challenges with that. And Ialways, you know, sort of
horribly jokingly say that, youknow, Florida is like the gift
that keeps on giving in thecurrent political environment
when it comes to education. Butthere are states where socio
emotional wellness, where we'redeveloping our own socio
(32:40):
emotional skills as children isforbidden as instruction,
instructional content in theclassroom that we cannot have.
We cannot teach children thoseskills to learn those what we
call soft skills as an adult,right? How do I get along with
others and expressing myself anddealing with my own challenges
(33:01):
and traumas and pains andwhatever that we cannot teach
that in the classroom.
Unknown (33:08):
I think that's a tragedy. I think it's a tragedy
for all those children. I thinkit's a tragedy for America. I
think it's a tragedy for theworld. Because really, and this
is what was mind boggling to me,the risks of not teaching us how
to get along with each othergrow higher every single day. I
was on a call with someone justlast week, I think it was or the
(33:31):
week before, and while I was onthe call with them, their child
called and said there was a bombthreat at their school or
shooting threat at their school,and they were terrified. It's,
it's while I was writing my bookabout the mass shootings, a news
flash came up on my computerthat there had been yet another
school shooting. And I think, Ithink what, what, what I really
(33:56):
had wanted to add in when I wastalking about the children that
I worked with that were reallysuffering from conflict in the
home. We're all suffering fromthe conflict in our country.
Yes, yeah.
To them. Children look at, youknow, this child's calling their
parents on their cell phonesaying, in a threat against my
school, come get me.
Dr Almitra Berry (34:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's beyond. I know schoolshootings is, is probably the
most traumatic thing we canthink of that's impacting our
children in schools. Butthere's, there's another one
that's a little bit softer, andI want to make sure that we
touch on that, and that is thestress that surrounds something
that is as as common, it'severywhere, and that is high
stakes testing. As we get intotesting season each year, and
(34:41):
the way that we approach it, theway that test scores are sort of
held over the heads of schooldistricts and administrators,
and the stress that teachersthen for fear of their own jobs,
right, that the teachers areunder stress, but then we push
that. Stress down onto thechildren. And so you think about
for a child, if testing startsat second grade in most states,
(35:07):
third grade by third grade atall states that for nine years,
every single year, likeclockwork, they can expect to
have this tremendous amount ofstress placed on them for a
flipping test. Um,
Unknown (35:27):
well, I think we're testing the wrong things. Yeah,
find out about your math skillsand your social studies skills,
and, you know, whatever youknow, your grammar skills. Find
out about those things, fine,but that's not what keeps people
alive. What keeps people aliveand healthy is their human
relations. And so I think we'retesting, you know, I think we're
(35:48):
not measuring what we actuallyreally need to measure. I think
we're not teaching a lot of whatneeds to be taught, like you
were talking about, you know,taking human relations out of
the curriculum. What could bemore deleterious to the child,
to the school and to the humanrace? I don't know. And that's
why I wrote a whole book aboutmental health. It's like, I feel
(36:09):
like it is the number onenational priority that we're
just missing. We're missing. Andso, yeah, I think I mean, and
there are actually a lot ofthings that can't be tested and
don't need to be tested. Youdon't need to test how well
somebody gets along with eachother, you know, with with other
people. We need to just fosterthat environment, and we need to
(36:31):
foster an environment whereyou're not judged by the score
you get on that test, you know.
And it's a place for there's aplace for learning your math
skills, and especially if youwant to become an engineer or a
chemist or a doctor, you needthose skills, and they're
important, and we need them intheir place, in their place. Of
how much are we actually safefor one another, serving one
(36:53):
another with the skills that wehave, or are we like cutthroat
to get into an Ivy Leagueschool? Yeah,
Dr Almitra Berry (37:02):
I talk about and write about in my book,
matter of fact, the upcomingbook that'll be out this spring,
the components, or the elementsof psychological safety in
creating an inclusive classroomand making every child feel
valued and welcomed and affirmedfor who they are and just being
a human being. That's right,that that first layer of
(37:24):
psychological safety has to bein place in every single
classroom. That's a benefit, notjust to the children, but to the
teacher as well. That's having aspace that you want to come to
work in every single day, andthen, you know, yes, that needs
to sort of, it's not filter,but, you know, be siphoned up
(37:45):
the the the system of schools,so that school as as a whole is
a psychologically safe to be,safe space, to be and to work,
to show up every day, and foradministrators that the district
environment is psychologicallysafe, but if we don't do those
things, we cannot, my opinion,we cannot begin to heal as a
(38:11):
classroom, as a school, as adistrict, a community, a state,
a nation.
Unknown (38:17):
And I also think it's the best learning environment,
when people feel safe whenchildren feel safe, when they
feel like they're wanted andthey belong, and they come into
the room and it's like, hi. Youknow, so glad you're here today
and we missed you because youwere out sick. That's the best
learning environment for all ofus, whether we're children or
adults. You know, that's wherewe thrive, and that's why we
talk about the characteristicsof a healthy family, because it
(38:41):
produces people who are loving,who are kind, who want to work
out the conflicts withouthurting each other. And we can
start teaching that in ourclassrooms, not even as a course
necessarily, but just as a wayof being right. And then the
other thing that just to goalong with that, if there's when
there's children who havelearned prejudice, who have
(39:01):
learned hatred in their home,who come to school and then
target, you know, a minority ora marginalized other child for
abuse, or some kind of, youknow, slurs or whatever they do
to taunt and provoke, andsomeone reports that that child
needs help, yes, well, you know,not just you know, well, often
(39:24):
it's ignored and nothing happensor they're suspended. But that's
not the answer. The answer isto, like, look into where
they're learning these hatefulbehaviors and really try to
address that on a family level.
And of course, that's a massivejob. But what better job do we
have?
Dr Almitra Berry (39:45):
There's that and there's restorative
practices in schools as well,right? And if we can marry those
two things, I think that wouldbe a tremendous, tremendous help
to healing taking place in ourin our in our schools, in our
classrooms. Yeah. Phyllis isthere? You talk about the
characteristics of a healthyfamily, and I want to make sure
(40:05):
that my listeners are wrappingtheir heads around maybe one or
two that are most important. Canyou give us what you think are
the most two most importantcharacteristics there? Well, one
Unknown (40:15):
of the things that I want to say is nobody does it
perfectly. We all have our ownwounds that we're working out.
So there's no ideal way to bethe perfect family, because
we're just not that. We're humanbeings. We have our own wounds
that we're healing. We have ourown conditioning that we're
still working with. So I'm nottrying to hold up a model of
perfection. I think one of thecharacteristics of a healthy
(40:38):
family that is fundamentallyloving, kind, supportive and
committed to non violence. Let'sjust say one of the
characteristics is that when wefall down, when we're not our
best selves, when we did yell atour kid and we didn't mean to or
we weren't as sensitive tosomebody in pain as we would
like to be, we come back and wetry again. There's no
(41:01):
perfection. There's theperfection is that we get up and
we try again and we try to do itbetter. You know, I say we love
each other and we keep learninghow to love each other better.
Dr Almitra Berry (41:12):
Wow, that's beautiful. I ask every guest the
same question. There's this oneconsistent question, and it
comes as sort of paraphrase fromDr Angela Davis, who said that
she is changing the things shecannot accept. So I ask every
guest, what is that somethingthat you cannot accept? And then
what should listeners be doingto help support changing that?
Unknown (41:35):
I think the one thing that I just cannot accept is
violence. I just cannot acceptthat. And I feel like it's I
really feel like if there's onechallenge for the human race,
Americans, in our families, inour government and in the world,
it's that we have to find a wayto resolve our differences and
our conflicts without violence.
I think that's the biggestchallenge, because the ways that
(41:57):
we can hurt each other now,could cause the whole human race
to go extinct? And do we needmore motivation than that? I
just don't think so.
Dr Almitra Berry (42:09):
Wow, that is beautiful and deep. Give us all
something to think about. I'mgoing to make sure that we have
all of your information as wellas the link to the book on
Amazon down in the show notes.
So folks again, the book isAmerica, America in therapy. Dr,
Phyllis, leave it, Phyllis,thank you. Thank you so much for
joining me today, and I hopeeveryone takes heed of the
(42:31):
things that Phyllis has said andwork to find ways to bring
healing to your community andthen join me again next episode.
As always, if you've got aquestion, a topic you want
covered, a special request,another question for Phyllis or
any other guests who's been onthe show, make sure that you
text me, because I do want tohear those stories. And then
(42:53):
always remember, don't worryabout the things you cannot
change. Change the things youcan no longer accept and that's
a wrap for today's episode ofthe 3e podcast. Now here's how
you can make a real difference.
First, smash that subscribebutton. It's free. It's easy,
just do it. Second, share theshow with anyone you know who
(43:14):
cares about education. Andthird, consider becoming a
supporter of the show. Together,we're not just talking about
change. We're making it happen.
Make a donation today to be partof that mission and change, and
I'll catch you next time you.
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