Kurtis Hewson's journey from classroom teacher to international education consultant reveals a startling truth about our schools: the isolation educators experience despite being surrounded by colleagues. As co-founder of Jigsaw Learning and co-author of "Collaborative Response," Kurtis shares how this recognition shaped his mission to ensure no teacher works alone and no student lacks a team of advocates.
The conversation unpacks a framework that's transforming schools across North America and beyond. Kurtis explains how the traditional Professional Learning Community model, while valuable, often leaves gaps that allow students to slip through the cracks. His Collaborative Response framework addresses these gaps through three interconnected components: collaborative structures and processes, data and evidence, and continuums of support.
What makes this approach revolutionary is the four-layer collaborative structure it introduces. While most schools have case-by-case meetings for struggling students, Kurtis introduces a game-changing middle layer—the collaborative team meeting—where teachers from different departments come together not to solve individual student problems but to expand their collective teaching toolboxes. The focus shifts from "what's wrong with this student?" to "what strategies might help with this type of challenge?"
The results speak volumes. One school district reported their referrals for specialized services dropped from 25-30 to just four after implementing this framework—not because student needs diminished, but because teachers felt better equipped to handle challenges. Teachers who were counting down to retirement found renewed passion for their work. Achievement scores climbed. All because the expertise already present in the building was being effectively leveraged.
Whether you're battling teacher burnout, struggling with intervention systems that don't seem to catch everyone, or simply looking to harness the collective wisdom in your building, Kurtis offers actionable insights for educational leaders. As he powerfully states, "Stop tiering kids. Tier your supports." This mindset shift alone could transform how we approach student needs in our schools.
Access an Overview of Collaborative Response article:
Access the introductory chapter of the bestseller Collaborative Response
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Principal JL (00:01):
Hey there, educational leaders.
It's great to be back foranother episode of the
Educational Leadership Podcast.
In today's episode, I got theprivilege and the honor to sit
down with Kurtis Hewson.
Kurtis is a award-winningformer administrator and teacher
, as well as a teaching facultyat the post-secondary level.
(00:22):
He is the co-founder of JigsawLearning and co-author of the
text Collaborative Responsethree fundamental components
that transform how we respond tothe needs of the learners.
He currently works with schooldistricts and schools nationally
and internationally.
If I didn't mention, Kurtis isfrom Canada, where he will talk
(00:44):
about his educational journey inCanada, but he also is reaching
out and working internationallywith other schools in other
countries such as Australia,United States, and Canada, just
to name a few of the countriesthat he has been working with in
education and schools.
And what's phenomenal aboutlistening to Kurtis speak is
(01:08):
about how he really talks aboutschool and being collaborative
and how we can all respond ineducation.
No matter where we're at in theworld, we can educate in a
collaborative way Withoutfurther ado.
Here is a conversation withKurtis Hewson.
Hey there, educational leaders.
(01:40):
Today I'm excited to bring toyou guys a special guest on the
show today.
His name is Kurtis Houston.
Welcome, Kurtis, to the show.
Kurtis Hewson (01:50):
Thanks, jeff, really excited to have a
conversation with you.
Principal JL (01:54):
All right, Kurtis.
Now I always like to start.
Why education.
What propelled you to become aneducator in the first place?
And then, once you go throughthat, I'd like you to talk about
your teaching career.
And then what got you intoschool leadership?
Kurtis Hewson (02:11):
Yeah, so I have family members.
My mother was a teacher,grandmother, other family
members.
So I often say my firstpracticum was putting up
bulletin board materials in mymother's classroom when I was 11
years old and I really camefrom a spot, jeff, that I just
(02:31):
wanted to make a difference forkids and it seemed to me that
the best place to do that wasthrough education, and it's been
the driving mantra all the waythrough of to where I am now.
The work I'm doing is stillabout how can we make a
considerable impact, make adifference for kids, and so
classroom teaching began.
(02:51):
It's a bit of a funny story.
I started oh, it's gettingalmost 30 years ago and at a
time where it was difficult tofind positions here in our home
province of Alberta, I moved 12hours north into northern
Alberta for what was a six-monthmaternity leave teaching grade
three.
Six months turned into nineyears and it moved into
(03:14):
administration.
I actually moved intoadministration quite early in my
teaching career.
The school division was reallytrying to grow their own leaders
, being as far north as theywere, and I was in a school with
a fantastic veteranadministrator who they said it'd
be nice if we could havesomebody that could learn from
(03:35):
him.
So it was actually my secondyear of teaching that they
assigned me a small portion Ithink it was a 0.1.
I think I maybe had two periodsof admin duties per week, but
they also helped to pay for somemaster's work.
So I got into my master's reallyearly around educational
leadership and then from theremoved into principalship through
(03:59):
a few different schools and itwas through that work that I
began what was the work that Ido now in a very organic and
unassuming way.
But from that principalshipI've also had the opportunity to
teach at the university levelin education departments here
(04:19):
within the province at a coupledifferent universities and it's
led me to the place now where Iget to work with schools and
school districts across NorthAmerica.
I've worked with schools inIceland, australia, all over the
world.
It's been super, super excitingand, yeah, it all comes back to
the do it to make a difference.
(04:40):
Just want to make a differencefor kids.
Principal JL (04:43):
Great and I think that's where a lot of educators
I mean they get into this tomake impact.
Right, they want to impact, youknow, other people, they have
that drive, they have that, thatpassion for that and that's
what makes education so unique,to where you get to have an
impact on people because, likehere in America, everybody you
know is required to to gothrough public education or, you
(05:07):
know, private education.
Some sort of education, yeah,touches on everyone, yeah, and
we're trying to, like, get thesepeople in and help them learn,
but, at the same time, theimpact and the drive that you
can make on the future of yourcountry in your case, Canada,
for us it's the US, you know andto have that impact and to be
able to inspire those learnersand to help them learn and grow,
(05:29):
it makes it all worth it right.
Kurtis Hewson (05:32):
Jeff, that it's a cascading effect, right, like
if I can have the impact on astudent, a child, a teacher,
that just cascades across, likeyou say, to impact a country, a
society.
It's exciting.
Principal JL (05:46):
Yeah, we have a saying here that we have
societal issues that will cometo our doorstep and we have to
help solve them and help getpeople and to make them better
so they can go out and helpmaybe solve some of those
societal issues as well.
And so that's something we kindof take seriously, because we
get to see those thingsfirsthand and how are we
impacting and helping those well, and so that's something we
kind of take seriously becauseyou know we get to see those
things firsthand and how are weimpacted in helping those kids,
(06:09):
and so that's what I love abouteducation.
No matter where you're at right, I kind of hear the same
stories that you have told.
You know, here in the US, therein Canada, and education is
very similar.
How we educate and how we helpkids learn is very similar.
And so let's talk about youknow you went from teaching into
school leadership.
(06:29):
What were some of the biggestchallenges you faced?
Kurtis Hewson (06:32):
Yeah.
So I think, first off, I neverunderstood how isolating
teaching was in the classroom,and that was something I never
experienced as an observer,seeing particularly my mother as
a teacher.
I got into the classroom and Idid not.
I assumed we're all together,we are around people all the
(06:54):
time, but it was isolating inthat classroom to be able to
connect with colleagues.
Sometimes there was days whereit didn't feel like I got to
connect with another adult inthe building until the very end
of the day.
And so, as I shifted intoleadership, there were two
thoughts or driving aspects ofit.
The first was how can we makethis more collaborative?
(07:16):
How could we be learning fromone another?
And especially for me as ayoung administrator, I certainly
did not have the solutions andI tried to adopt the Superman
syndrome of if people bring me aproblem, I'll try and fix it.
But it was evident very quicklythat I didn't have the skill
(07:36):
set to be able to fix that.
The experience and I think ithelped me tremendously become a
way more effective leader intime, because I learned early on
don't have the answers, but setup structures to determine the
answers.
How can we bring the solutions,the people with the
(07:57):
difficulties.
If we could bring thechallenges, if we could bring
them together to work through it, that is way more powerful than
trying to solve that all bymyself.
I heard somebody call it asgoose leadership the idea that
somebody comes into your office,squawks, dumps a load and then
(08:18):
leaves for you to clean up.
And again, I found out veryearly that wasn't going to work
for me.
So I think the challenges that Iexperienced early on, coming
from this mindset, was how, howdo we create structures,
possibilities, ways that peoplecould work that would then just
(08:40):
become culture, that it's justnatural that we are working
together, and in the last schoolthat I went in as principal, I
often say it was an amazingschool great teachers, great
staff doing great things forkids, but isolated islands of
excellence.
Sometimes the challenge oneperson was having in the room.
The solution was three doorsdown and we didn't know because
(09:03):
we didn't have ways for peopleto interact effectively with one
another.
So we that was really theimpetus that has become the work
that I do now, working withschools and school jurisdictions
, about setting up what we calla collaborative response, that
we're responding to the needs ofstudents, but nobody is doing
(09:24):
this on their own.
We have very, very intentionaland strategic ways of organizing
ourselves.
To do that.
Principal JL (09:32):
Yeah, you really hit on a few things there that I
even was thinking about.
To my you know my experience asa teacher, where there's times
where you're so classroomfocused and you're just trying
to get the things done in yourroom and trying to do the best
you can, you sometimes forget,hey, you have a neighbor that
you know, in my, my case, teachmath.
You have a neighbor thatteaches math too.
(09:53):
So, um, how you collaborate andand I kind of we here in
America, we, we talk aboutprofessional learning
communities a lot.
It's kind of what we do orthat's kind of the buzzword in
America and you know, with yourcollaborative responses and
everything, it really it reallykind of fits some of that.
You know.
We, we got to collaborate witheach other and how we do that,
(10:15):
you know.
Going from that, I mean, youkind of taught, kind of alluded
to it a little bit.
You kind of saw a problem andyou started figuring out this
issue or trying to find asolution to the issue.
So what was that issue?
And if I'm going to take a leaphere and I'm going to, you know
, this is kind of maybe whereyou started getting into finding
that solution and maybe goinginto co-founding the Jigsaw
(10:38):
Learning.
Is that right on that?
So kind of take us through thatand how that all evolved and
what inspired the co-founding ofJigsaw Learning and the vision
behind it.
Kurtis Hewson (10:50):
Yeah.
So again that last school thatI mentioned as the principal of
it we really started to thinkabout how could we be working
together in more effective waysand it was founded initially on
professional learningcommunities more effective ways,
and it was founded initially onprofessional learning
communities.
The work of Richard Dufour andRebecca Dufour were really
(11:10):
impactful and inspirational, butwe actually found it wasn't
enough.
We were establishing strong PLCstructures and we found that
there were still studentsslipping through the cracks, not
by anyone's lack of attentionor passion, it was just systems
that weren't stronglyestablished.
(11:31):
So we began to look and operatein some very different ways
that I'd love to describe foryou here in a little bit and
started to connect some of theliterature that was beginning
and started to connect some ofthe literature that was
beginning.
This was mid-2000s, some of theliterature that was just coming
out around, response tointervention and then later on,
(11:51):
multi-tiered systems of supportsand how could that lend itself?
And as we got going, just bypeople talking, we started to
see not only success forstudents our achievement rates
started to climb, and quicklyand significantly but our staff
satisfaction rates started toincrease the teachers that were
(12:16):
trying to ensure success fortheir kids, but on their own.
And at the cusp of burnout, wesaw people starting to get
refreshed.
We saw that passion coming backin and so we, just by people
talking, we started to have someschools come to visit.
I started to get requests tocome out and explain and share.
(12:39):
It was never work that wasintended to be shared beyond our
school.
It was just how we were tryingto structure and organize
ourselves.
And so, as I moved from thatschool and moved into um a role
at a local university uh,teaching, beginning teachers in
the education program the callskept coming in of can you come
(13:00):
out and share this?
Come tell us how you did this.
I started to get requests topresent at conferences and that
and at that point, it was myselfand my later wife, lorna, who
we decided there's a point wherethe calls coming in are
starting to get more and moreand we should be writing some
(13:25):
more and talking about this andreally formulating our ideas.
And it just took on a life ofits own, to the point where I
think it was 2013 where weformed this organization called
jigsaw learning.
That was just the two of usbranded it that way to be able
to engage in this work and thenit was in 2016 that I moved into
(13:49):
it full-time I it couldn't besomething off the side of the
plate.
It was now at a place where itwasn't schools reaching out, it
was school districts reachingout and saying how can you help
share some of this work, thiscollaborative and we came to
call it collaborative response,because saying, well, it's kind
of like PLCs with an RTI elementand some other things in it
(14:12):
wasn't a really great way todescribe the framework or what
we've now come to understand isreally a mindset, it's a way of
thinking in your school.
So it took off and then just itwas exciting to begin working
with different systems andjurisdictions.
We've had chance now to workwith different ministries around
(14:33):
.
How could we utilize this as adriving overall way of of, uh,
engaging in schools and goingback to where you started, jeff.
Usually schools that haveengaged in PLC work, when they
see this, they go oh, mygoodness, this is our next step.
This would take us even furtherthan the success we're seeing
(14:53):
in PLCs.
I love it when a school sayswe're interested in this, but
we're already doing PLC work,and I say, oh great, then you
are incredibly well poised.
You're not going to give upthat work, but we're going to
add another layer to it.
Principal JL (15:07):
Yeah, no, and so we are a PLC school and we're
very good about setting thattime apart.
This is what we do.
It goes per student, by target.
You know we're trying to makesure kids are getting the
interventions, because our PLCworks really driven around, you
know, helping kids interveninginto kid's education, and we set
(15:29):
intervention time, you know,aside every day, except for
Wednesday because that's our PLCday.
But on Monday, tuesday,thursday, friday, we have
dedicated intervention time towhere teachers can request
students can request teachers,and we're doing this at a
building of a thousand studentsand so, and so we have to have a
(15:52):
particular system in place toget people to where they need to
go, cause it's, it's a wholething.
We could, we could talk aboutthat for days, but I love how
it's collaborative response andkind of like how you've taken
that and really elevated thatPLC work.
And so your book, collaborativeResponse, outlines three
(16:13):
foundational components.
Can you take us through theseand why they're essential for
schools?
Kurtis Hewson (16:19):
Absolutely.
And, jeff, when I follow up, I'mgoing to share with you a
overview of CollaborativeResponse article that, if
anyone's interested can accessthat.
It's available at our website,jigsawlearningca as well.
I'm also going to share withyou an introductory chapter of
the book that anyone candownload to explore more.
(16:39):
In both of those we talk aboutthree foundational components,
the first being collaborativestructures and processes, the
second being data and evidence.
Evidence and the third beingcontinuum of supports.
And our visual actually isthree puzzle pieces where these
are connected, becauseseparately I would say they have
(16:59):
less impact than when we startconnecting all of those pieces
together in a really thoughtfuland aligned system.
We often say to schools whenyou're in beginning your
collaborative response work,buckle in, because you're, it's
(17:19):
going to be two, three, four,five years of implementation.
It's not that you're going toread the book and say, awesome,
we're going to have thisestablished by next month.
It takes time as, as you'rebuilding out, we often say
you're, you're establishing aculture of collaborative
response and culture doesn'tjust shift overnight.
So each of those three pieces,I'm going to break them down.
The first is collaborativestructures and processes, and in
(17:40):
the little graphic it's twiceas large as the other pieces,
because I believe, and just likeyou're saying, you have to
create structured andintentional collaboration within
your building.
But we talk about four layersand I've worked with schools
that have 25 students and I'veworked with schools that have
2,500 students and these fourlayers always they apply and
(18:03):
think of them as categories.
So I'm going to walk us throughwhat these are as quickly as
possible.
The first layer we refer to itas collaborative planning and,
again, think of these asoverarching categories.
If you're doing PLC work, boom,it fits into collaborative
planning, the idea that we wantteachers coming together working
on things that will impact allstudents and that designation of
(18:25):
you're probably not looking atindividual students in those
conversations.
You're looking at overallcohorts.
We're examining data,determining what steps we're
going to take.
Typically, in thatcollaborative planning layer,
you're often doing it withcolleagues who share a similar
teaching assignment or a similargrade level.
If you're in elementary highschool, I want a math department
(18:47):
that's working together, ascience department.
We have seen some schools,though, that also set up other
structures that still fit withinthat category of teachers
working together to benefit allstudents.
Okay, I'm going to skip thesecond layer and I'm going to go
to the third, I'll come back tothe second.
The third layer is what we calla school support team.
So in my own school it wasmyself as principal, our
(19:08):
assistant principal, ourlearning support teacher.
Own school it was myself asprincipal, our assistant
principal, our learning supportteacher, and we had a family
school wellness coordinator thatwe shared with our high school.
In our community the four of usevery Thursday morning would
meet and determine who are thestudents needing supports beyond
the classroom.
Now, in a school your size,jeff, you might not have one
team.
That's at that level.
You might have several.
(19:29):
I worked with a large school of2000 here, that's not too far
from our home, and in theirschool of grade 10 to 12,
there's a grade 10 team and 11team and a 12 team and they
cycle with the students.
But essentially that layer iswhat are we doing for students
who need support beyond theclassroom?
And in time it's students landon that agenda through referral
(19:51):
processes and systems that arein place.
The fourth layer we call thecase consult and it's an
overarching umbrella.
All of these are categories butthis one's probably the easiest
to understand and it's the onethat's most prevalent in schools
.
We refer to any time we'remeeting about one student, it
falls into that layer.
(20:11):
Refer to any time we're meetingabout one student.
It falls into that layer.
Okay, so when we have a crisisthat has happened with a student
and we're bringing in externalsupports and services to be at
the table, that would fall intothat layer.
When we are planning aspecialized program for a
student with some moreexceptional needs and the
parents are at the table, thatfalls into that layer.
(20:33):
I worked with one school, alarger high school, when they
looked at these four layers andheld up what they did in their
school, they found out that mostof the things and really good
structures, but most of themfell into that case consult
layer that fourth layer, andthey went oh, this is why we
feel exhausted, overwhelmed.
It feels like we're playingwhack-a-mole, one kid at a time.
You're always going to have aneed to come around the table,
(20:58):
around certain students, butthrough this layering we ensure
less and less students get thereand the ones that do are the
ones that need to.
So we had these in place withinour school, but there was still
something missing.
There was still something thatwas not quite there and even
though we were a school ofaround 350, 350 students.
(21:19):
The structures at the third andfourth layer that school support
team and case consult it feltoverwhelming.
We felt like we weren't keepingup with what the needs were.
Overwhelming.
We felt like we weren't keepingup with what the needs were.
And you know, sometimes ateacher would say, oh, I've done
everything.
And we would have to have aconversation of what do you mean
by everything?
Because sometimes thatabsolutely was the case,
(21:41):
sometimes not so much.
And so we introduce a secondlayer of team and this radically
changed everything.
In fact, we often, whenintroducing this to schools,
will say we're going to reducethe number of meetings in your
school by adding one more, andit's the second layer.
We call it the collaborativeteam meeting.
(22:02):
And the collaborative teammeeting, jeff, it looks like
you're talking about kids, butyou're not.
You're using it as aopportunity to examine practice.
So do you mind if I take just acouple moments and describe
just the basic structure of whatthat looks like?
Principal JL (22:17):
no, go right ahead yeah.
Kurtis Hewson (22:19):
So what we do is, let's say, in my school I,
let's say in your school, youhave plcs that are set up and
and I've done this with manyhigh schools where typically
that's happening in departmentsor people that are teaching
similar teaching assignmentswhen we get into the
collaborative team meeting weactually mix those people up.
(22:41):
So I engage in collaborativeplanning which in your case you
call PLCs with those that I'mteaching a similar assignment,
your case you call PLCs, withthose that I'm teaching a
similar assignment.
In elementaries it's often ingrade level teams or, you know,
multi-grade level teams, andmaybe there's a one, two team, a
three, four team.
In the collaborative teammeeting we start looking for
(23:02):
opportunities to mix thosepeople and the way we do it is
through this particular process.
So let's imagine you and I aresitting at the collaborative
team meeting table and we startoff by saying Jeff, who's a
student you've brought tocelebrate, and there's all sorts
of meeting structures in place.
You know the roles and norms,all of these really highly
(23:23):
structured elements to ensurethat we are maximizing our time
together.
But we go, jeff who's a studentto celebrate, and you say well,
I have this one student andthis is a great celebration.
I've seen we instantly turn andsay, all right, what do you
think you did that led to thatsuccess?
And so by starting with thatcelebration and really getting
teachers talking about theirpractice what is the things that
(23:45):
they've done that has led tosuccess, which we know.
By doing that over and overagain, we're creating high
levels of collective efficacy.
Someone in the room when Jeffsays, oh, one of the things I
did is I created a little lockerchecklist and it helps the kid
get organized for class.
Someone else in that room isgoing to go.
That's brilliant.
I'd love to see a copy of that.
Just simple little things thatstart sharing.
(24:08):
After a few minutes of thatcelebration, then we come and
focus on a key issue.
So this is what it looks likeand everyone's asked to come
ready.
There's a pre-meeting organizerthat you quickly determine and
in time, we want thatpre-meeting organizer connected
to our data and evidence.
I'll come back to that in asecond and we say, jeff, who's
the student you've brought?
(24:29):
And, 20 seconds or less, what'sthe key issue?
And you identify that I havethis student.
My key issue is assignmentcompletion.
They just I can't get them tocomplete assignments on time and
we go okay, great, who else inthis room has a student that is
struggling with assignmentcompletion?
And inevitably other peoplewill go, uh-huh, yep, and we
(24:51):
make note of names.
But the whole idea is we'retrying to get the attention off
you, jeff, as the teacher, andoff one kid, and onto what is
something that we share.
And then we've startbrainstorming and we start and,
and there's more structure.
I'm being quite quick oroverarching with the explanation
, but we just start throwing outideas.
(25:12):
You know, in my classroomhere's one of the things I do
and you go interesting in mine Ido this and during this
conversation there's no judgingof ideas.
There's no opportunity for Jeffto say, oh, I've tried, that
that wouldn't work in myclassroom.
We just it opens up a space forinnovation and sharing of
practice.
And then we come back and sayall right, jeff, for Marcus,
(25:34):
what's one thing that you'rewilling to take away?
So, like we said, it'ssometimes for someone that's
watching this meeting from afar,it looks like you're talking
about kids, but you're not.
You're just using the kid toleverage a conversation about
practice.
And it's highly solutionsfocused, highly action oriented,
and we found through this itmakes the PLC work even stronger
(25:58):
.
It ensures that we have schoolsthat say we have less and less
students making their ways tothe referral systems that we
have in place because teachers'toolboxes are growing for us.
So that's the collaborativestructures and processes really
powerful process and we oftensay to schools you're going to
get highly intentional andthoughtful on how you create
(26:18):
your teams.
But look at these four layers.
The collaborative team meetingbecomes the difference maker.
Principal JL (26:24):
Yeah, it sounds like basically the schools that
are out there doing the PLC work, which are a ton of them.
This will be, you know, like yousaid earlier, it'd be maybe
that next step to strengthenkind of what you do and elevate
it to where you're maybe havingless people fall through the
cracks.
And it's really interesting tohear a lot of the systematic
(26:46):
approaches and the differentways of doing it.
I really like the idea ofgetting people out of their
departments and cross, you know,disciplining problems.
We kind of do that with ourschool improvement team.
I kind of require to have aperson from each department
represented on the team, soeverybody that's at the table
(27:09):
when we're trying to findsolutions to an issue are having
a seat at the table to wherethey can go back to their
particular departments and bringback some different feedback
and different things.
And so I mean we kind of itsounds like, you know, I'm kind
of thinking through the thingswe do.
We kind of like do some of thisstuff, but I mean this might be
something we definitely forsure look at, maybe strengthen
(27:32):
what we do, even better.
And.
Kurtis Hewson (27:34):
Jeff, we sometimes have some schools say
so, do we stop doing our PLCmeetings and do these meetings
instead?
And we say no, no, no, you keepyour PLC work.
That's really powerful, butwhat we're going to do is every
usually it's four to five weekswe're going to infuse this
approach in as well.
So when we first started in myschool, we had grade level PLCs.
(27:56):
We had embedded time weekly inthe timetable and we'd say, all
right, every fourth meeting youcan expect the principal to come
join the learning supportteacher to come join some other,
our family school liaison.
We're going to create um, aconversation that looks like
what I described, but we startedit within our regular teams.
(28:16):
But what we found over time isbecause the focus is on key
issues.
We were struggling before whenit was well, I want to talk
about bradley and the peoplearound the table when it was in
grade level teams, they'd beaware of Bradley just because of
the work that they're doing.
But when we started to mix teamsand especially at a high school
(28:37):
, where if I'm in a mixed teamconversation and I bring up
Bradley, I'm going to have fourpeople around the table
completely disengaged, becausenot only do I not teach Bradley.
I don't even know what that kidlooks like right now, but when
you focus it on the key issue,now we can start mixing those
teams.
So it's, it just creates onemore layer and, especially
(28:59):
thinking about your high school,it becomes exciting when
somebody shares.
You know, one of the things Ido in the gym is this and
someone else says that'sinteresting.
How could I look at that in mymy english classroom for how I
do this?
Like it just starts opening updifferent possibilities and
different conversations.
I had one high school that'swhere a teacher had said I've
(29:21):
been in the school a long time,I'm I'm friendly with all of my
colleagues, but I've never had aconversation about practice
with someone from that wing ofthe building.
In fact, I don't even often godown that wing of the building
because it just I don't need to.
It creates multiple networksand then we know this creates
(29:42):
huge impact on teacherwell-being, teacher
connectedness.
No one's isolated in this work.
Principal JL (29:48):
Yeah, I really, I really love how trying to bring
everybody together across thebuilding is a powerful way to
really collaborate and to helpthemselves get better, but also,
you know they're going to helpstudent learning in the process
of that.
So what advice would you giveto principals, district leaders
that are out there listening,that want to maybe start
(30:10):
implementing collaborativeresponse practices but aren't
sure where to begin, like what?
What advice would you give themon that?
Kurtis Hewson (30:18):
yeah, I would definitely say check out
jigsawlearningca.
We have a ton of resources thatare available there, including
a page that is specificallyabout introducing collaborative
response in your school.
It's overwhelming when you seeall of the pieces come together
because, on top of what I'vejust shared with you in time, we
(30:40):
want that the data and evidenceis informing every one of those
conversations and in fact, westart color coding our data so
that in the collaborative teammeeting I'm not bringing
students with key issues thatare my most at risk students.
In fact, we know they'realready being attended to in one
of our other layers.
We actually say, if you'regoing to color code your data,
let's say red, yellow, green,red being not yet meeting
(31:01):
expectations, yellow beingthey're getting close and green
being meeting expectation, andthen we also have a blue of
exceeding expectations.
Then we're going to focus onthe yellow and we had one high
school that said we'vedetermined a yellow criteria as
a kid who's sitting with a 40 to60% in their classes right now,
or you might say a kid that'ssitting at a C level.
(31:24):
If we're looking at alphanumericgrading, we're not looking at
our most intensive needsstudents.
They're already there, they'realready being attended in one of
our other layers.
What we're trying to do isthose kids that are on the cusp,
on the bubble, what could we dothat would have impact for them
in the classroom, which we knowthen impacts all other students
(31:45):
.
And then in time we startconnecting a continuum of
supports so that when we say so,what should we do, it's not
always just brainstorming, it'sreferencing our continuums and
saying have we tried this, havewe tried this?
And getting crystal clear onwhat are the non-negotiable
expectations for instruction inour school that we've determined
(32:07):
and what are the other thingswe could do.
And these tiers of thecontinuum start to align to the
four different layers of team.
And through this we say stoptiering kids, tier your supports
I love that.
Principal JL (32:21):
Stop tiering kids.
Tier your supports, that's, youknow.
That's.
That's a very great thing tothink about, because I think
your supports are what's goingto get those kids where they
need to go, instead of focusingon the individual kids all the
time.
What supports do we have sowhen the kids run through these
systems, they are getting thesupports they needed?
Kurtis Hewson (32:44):
Yeah, and going back to your original question
of getting started, we saythere's those three foundational
components.
In time we want them all toconnect.
But your starting place isprobably looking at your
collaborative structures andprocess.
And we often say for schoolslike your school that already
has some systems in placeawesome, let's start introducing
(33:04):
the collaborative team meetingin and start seeing the impact
that that one structure once amonth will have.
And again we say to schoolsstart small impact that that one
structure once a month willhave.
And again we say to schoolsstart small, start with a pilot
group that can try this.
The collaborative team meetingis very tightly facilitated but
(33:25):
in time, when we can spread itout across our entire school
population, it transforms theway you're talking, thinking and
responding to kids.
Principal JL (33:33):
Yeah, so how do you?
This is a question that came uphow do you battle the mindset
of oh, this is just anotherthing they're making me do
another agenda, a checklist thatI got to do.
How do we have the staff buyinto these different supports?
Because you talked about atightly knit, facilitated,
(33:54):
collaborative process, but alsothe buy-in's got to be there too
.
So how do you help people withthe buy-in?
Kurtis Hewson (34:02):
Yeah, and actually I I always take this
from another perspective.
I've learned through myleadership career that I'm not
worried about buy-in, becausebuy-in in my mind is I'm trying
to sell something and I need youto to buy it, to sell something
and I need you to to buy it.
I instead want to move towards.
How do I get commitment, um, towhat is happening and I
(34:23):
actually I'm not worried aboutseeing whole school commitment
initially, I know that's notpossible for us.
I I want to start with who arethe people that I know can help
to champion?
How can I start planting someseeds with them?
How can we start developing andtrying some of these ideas
within our school and then allowpeople to enter when they are
(34:46):
ready?
But I also believe that as aleader, I cannot force you to
think or change your beliefs onanything for an individual, but
I can set expectations for howwe are going to engage in our
school.
I can say, um, we're going tohave a collaborative team
meeting and I expect everyone tocome ready for that and there
(35:08):
might be some P in fact, I sawit in my own eyes of staff
members that came into thatfirst meeting and if someone's
listening to the audio.
You're not seeing me folding myarms across my chest very
closed.
Who, in time, when theydiscovered this is not about
judging or adding one more thingonto your plate.
It's actually a conversationthat is going to start taking
(35:28):
some things off your plate intime it's.
It's going to give you thoughtsand possibilities and, man, it
starts to become exciting when Ishare out an idea and someone
else in the room goes that'sgold Kurtis, that's a great idea
.
I've seen people transform theway they're going about
supporting students by justbeing part of these
(35:52):
conversations.
So I would say to leaders don'tworry, if not everyone's on
board to start, that's okay,just start, just get going, and
actually you're going to shiftand move and change.
I'm a big subscriber to thechange philosophy of ready fire,
(36:13):
aim, ready, you know.
Plant some seeds, start withpeople who you know are going to
be okay and help you getthrough some muddy parts of the
process, because it's muddy, itis muddy, but then fire, just
fire, get started, and then wecan come and aim, we can adjust,
we can change.
We may realize that we're doingthese meetings too frequently,
not frequently enough.
(36:33):
There's lots of navigation thatwe're going to have to do, but
as a leader, not being afraid tofire.
From our conversations, jeff,you've lived that idea of we're
going to fire, we're going tolearn as we go through and
through that process you'regoing to have people come in at
different entry points.
Principal JL (36:52):
No, yeah, definitely, I know.
You know, when you are tryingto build collaboration within
your school and build thatculture, it does take a lot of
work.
It takes people to, you know,see it.
But then once you do the workand they start seeing success
from the collaboration that youget, then that motivates them
more.
And I'll tell you, my firstyear here as a principal, we
(37:16):
really focused in on the schoolimprovement team and really they
were like well, man, we've donethe school improvement stuff
forever, but we've never seenany fruits of our labor.
Well, within my first year, wesolved a.
We found a solution to an issuethat they said this is an issue
, we got to solve it, we'vesolved it.
Then we implemented change andwe solved the effects of it the
(37:39):
next year.
And it was them saying you knowwhat?
This is the first time that wehave actually did something.
We said we're going to do, wefollowed the rule and we could
see the effects of the changes.
So that motivated them even forthe next year.
It's motivating them right nowbecause we're right now trying
to find a solution to an issuethat is important to us, and
(38:02):
these issues aren't necessarily,you know, we have to score so
high on a certain test.
In this, you know, content area,our issues are how do we get
kids in class, how do we engagekids?
How do we, you know, transitionkids from the eighth grade into
the ninth grade?
These are some of the thingswe're trying to build because
that's part of our culture andthe welcoming piece and wanting
(38:25):
people to feel welcomed andwanted into our school.
That's really important,because I don't think you're
going to have success on theother ends if you don't have
that.
And, of course, the way to dothat is to collaborate.
And so that's really neat tojust to hear how this system
works.
And if people don't havesomething, this is something
that they can maybe look atbringing in and helping them
(38:46):
produce systems if they don'thave anything in place.
And also, how could thiselevate what you already do?
Kurtis Hewson (38:55):
Of that collaborative team meeting
structure I talked about.
It's actually taking whatyou're doing.
Of that collaborative teammeeting structure I talked about
.
It's actually taking whatyou're doing at the macro level,
at the school level, of whatare some school issues and let's
bring people around to helpsolve the CTM.
Focus then on the micro, ofwhat are some issues that you
individually are seeing in yourclassroom and how could we help
to support.
But it's not putting people onthe hot seat, it's through the
(39:17):
facilitated structures beingable to say, okay, this is
actually a shared issue thatwe're seeing across some
different classrooms.
What do you do in your room,what do I do in mine?
And it's it's taking exactlywhat you're doing to try and
create change at your schoollevel and bringing it down to
the micro level.
So I often say to schools youcan't avoid the macro and the
(39:39):
micro like, do them both.
How can we put both in place?
Principal JL (39:43):
No, I really like that.
I think that's kind of onepiece that we maybe got to look
at is how can we help teacherslearn from other teachers to
help practices?
How do we elevate theirpractices?
I'll be honest, my vision fornext year is how can teachers
help student engagement in theclassroom, and so that's going
(40:03):
to be a piece.
How do teachers learn from eachother?
And I've thought of some things.
I won't get into it on thepodcast.
Maybe we could talk after onsome things that I've thought
about to help with that.
But really this collaborativeresponse, the things that you
have thought about to help withthat but really this you know
collaborative response, you knowthe things that you have in
here really kind of speaks tothose things, and I really would
(40:24):
encourage people to take a lookat what you do.
Is there any success storiesthat really stand out from this
work that people haveimplemented that you'd like to
share?
Kurtis Hewson (40:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
So maybe I'll start from.
I'll go back to the micro andmove to the macro.
We've seen numerous schoolsthat have said the culture has
changed.
One is I heard from a teacherwho said I was looking forward
to counting my days forretirement and I'm not anymore.
(40:55):
This, it's, re reignited mypassion for what it is that I'm
doing, because we've understoodnow that the solutions to the
challenges we're having aren'toutside, they're inside there.
We often say, like in yourbuilding, jeff, you have
centuries of teaching experiencein there.
(41:16):
If you're looking for how do weimprove student engagement, I'm
willing to bet you have expertsin your building that are
phenomenal at that.
How do we leverage them aseffectively as we can?
So those are the kind ofsuccess stories that I've heard
from teachers where it feelslike and it goes right back to
where we started.
I want to make a difference,but if I can feel like I'm
(41:45):
making.
We often say to, to to teachers.
This isn't going to make yourwork less like.
You're not going to be able togo home half hour earlier than
normal, but you are going tofeel like your efforts are going
much further than they everhave before.
At the macro level, we've beenworking.
I'll just share one system herein our province of.
Calgary is our largest city andtheir entire public system is
(42:07):
about 150,000 students, 250schools have all adopted this
framework and of course it'sbeen through phases and and
trying to introduce somethinglarge scale has been really
complex and exciting.
But we're seeing now successstories that are coming from
(42:28):
those schools for students andI'll share one rural school
division, a division of about 2000 students or so here in our
province that implemented and intheir fourth year of every
school getting common language,common understanding, utilizing,
of course, not the samestructures, because their high
school of 700, that's not goingto look the same as a
(42:50):
kindergarten to grade 12 of 100students, but we can still use
some the common frameworktogether.
Their director of of uh studentservices at the divisional level
said uh, it was not unusual,and this was in November when
she was talking, so just withinthe first quarter of the year.
She said by this time last yearwe had somewhere between 25 to
(43:13):
30 referrals coming in fordistrict level services beyond
the school.
She said this year we've hadfour.
Four Because the schools it'snot that they're all of a sudden
got better students comingthrough the door?
Not at all.
They have still their samestudent population.
(43:34):
It's just the schools are waymore equipped to be able to
address the challenges thatthey're seeing.
It's not that we have lessneeds, we just feel better
equipped to handle those needs.
So those are some of thesuccess stories that have been
phenomenal.
And of course, then we do havethe quantitative data that shows
(43:55):
student achievement resultswithin our school.
Within two years we shot upliteracy achievement by 13
percent higher for students atat benchmark based on our screen
, which was again you talk aboutseeing those wins as soon as
you saw that it, man, it openedup the desire to let's do more.
Principal JL (44:17):
Yeah, when you see success, you know, and you see
the solutions that you come upwith provide the success from
that, it does motivate you to belike, oh, let's keep doing this
work, because we've seen someof that, you know, within our
building and I know, you know,other people can have those
successes if they have thesetype of processes and systems in
(44:38):
place for them as well.
And and honestly, I'd love tosee more people get into not
being afraid to put these typesof things in the place because
they get worried about it and,oh my gosh, you know, will they?
Will this be effective?
And so I think, when you havethose success stories and you
have the people that have donethe work and they can say, hey,
(45:00):
if it could work for us, itcould work for you, you just got
, like you said, kind of roll upyour sleeve and do the work,
and it's not easy work, but it'swork that's worth doing If you
put the time and effort in.
I want to kind of talk aboutyour building a culture of
collaboration podcast.
That's something that I ran,you know, kind of getting to
know you guys, you know yourwork as well as your podcast.
(45:25):
So what kind of led you tostart that building of culture
collaboration podcast.
Kurtis Hewson (45:32):
Yeah, so of course, as we've been working
through, I've learned more fromengaging with schools and
divisions than I'm sure I'vetaught those schools and
divisions.
Just, you'll come into a schoolthat are utilizing the
structures and processes, butthey've made one tiny addition
or tweak and you go.
That's genius.
(45:52):
So we wanted a way to startsharing out those stories and
those success, and we haveanother podcast called Leading
Collaborative Response that isdirectly connected to this work
of leaders coming on and sharingwhat they've done, what they've
learned through the process.
And then myself and Lorna, whoco-author of the book and
(46:14):
co-founder of Jigsaw Learningsometimes we just sit down and
share.
You know, here's a strategy,here's a tip, here's how you can
do this.
But what we were finding issometimes and it goes exactly to
what you said, jeff sometimespeople would potentially lack
confidence, or sometimes even,you know, I know I need to put
this in place, but I don't knowhow to introduce it.
(46:36):
I don't, I'm not quite sure howI would move forward.
And what we found is there'ssome skill sets around building
culture and having people workin teams that are bigger than
this collaborative response work.
They're they and they.
They span across differentindustries.
So we really wanted to a chanceto break down what are the
(47:00):
tenets of effectivecollaboration in business, in
education, in healthcare and allthese different factors.
And that's really our purposeof the Building a Culture
Collaboration podcast.
Yeah, we bring in educators andeducational leaders, but we've
also tried to expand beyondeducation to just what are
things that we know aboutbuilding effective teams.
(47:21):
I'm a huge believer that in thisworld if we're trying to do it
alone, it's going to be way moredifficult than collaborating.
But collaborating doesn'talways lead to success.
We know that there'sineffective forms of
collaboration where you go ohthat's 45 minutes of my life I
will never get back.
(47:41):
I could have got done more onmy own, but I hope everyone's
had instances of true,meaningful, purposeful
collaboration where you come outand go oh, my goodness, we just
accomplished something that isremarkable here for us.
So that's the emphasis of thatpodcast and I've often said that
(48:02):
a little bit selfishly it givesus a chance to pick other
people's brains to learn.
I see it as a tremendousprofessional learning
opportunity for myself, but thenI also hope that it benefits
others listening and eitherconfirming things that they are
already doing and putting inplace or offering a new idea or
a new mindset.
Principal JL (48:24):
I agree with the whole like learning from other
people, and that's kind of whatI do through this podcast.
I'm actually, you know, havingmy own professional development
by talking to other people inthe profession and what they're
doing and, honestly, I wouldn'thave ran across your work of
collaborative response withoutum re, you know, really
reigniting and this uh passionfor trying to help other
(48:48):
educational leaders.
And so, you know, one way weended up connecting was me going
on social media and throwingout stuff and just saying, hey,
I podcast, and I think you kindof responded to one of my posts
and then we got the talk in andnext thing, you know, we're
collaborating and workingtogether and just telling each
(49:09):
other stories, which you know Iappreciate.
You know those things causethose are things I would have
never thought would happen.
You know, two, three months agoI was just thinking how do I do
all this stuff?
I want I know why what I wantto do is I kind of have an idea,
but then it's really kind ofblown up over the last two to
three months of working withother people and learning from
(49:32):
them what they got to offer, andthen, huh, I really liked that.
I think I'm going to thinkabout how can I implement those
things into my current practiceswith my, with my teachers, my
staff and my students as well.
And so you've accomplished a lot, right From teaching the
leadership co-founding, jake sawlearning, you know.
(49:52):
You got you published a book.
Now you're podcasting.
So what's next for Curtis, andmaybe for Lorna as well?
What's next for you guys?
To continue this journey?
Kurtis Hewson (50:03):
Well, we're super excited.
Every year we host what'sbecome a retreat now around this
work where we bring educatorsand teams from schools and
school jurisdictions here to ourhome community of Lacombe,
alberta.
It's a small group we cap thenumbers at 140, but it's
happening in May and it's areally powerful learning and
(50:26):
networking experience.
So that's coming up.
We're actually just working ona new book I'd say we're about
two-thirds of the way through itthat is focusing specifically
on that collaborative teammeeting structure.
We know that the bookCollaborative Response looks at
the overall, but the new bookthat we have coming out is going
(50:46):
to deep dive that meetingstructure because it is so
powerful.
It's one part of ourcollaborative response but it's
a pretty powerful one, and wejust actually yesterday released
an online course that isfocused on understanding and
facilitating the collaborativeteam meeting.
So if anyone's listening andwants to learn more about that
(51:08):
and learn how to reallyeffectively facilitate and I
would argue there's strategiesand ideas in it that's not just
about the collaborative teammeeting but facilitating any
meeting that can be reallypowerful.
So those are some of the thingsthat are out and again, all of
them with the intent of how canwe continue to expand this work
(51:29):
that we know can have impact forkids and for teachers.
We share that our drivingmantra is every child deserves a
team.
For teachers, we share that ourdriving mantra is every child
deserves a team, and I actuallybelieve every staff member
deserves a team too, and I justwant to play a small role in
helping to transform our systemso that nobody's ever isolated
(51:49):
and no child is ever the soleresponsibility of one individual
in any school.
It's, they're our kids, and howdo we help ensure their success
?
Principal JL (52:01):
I love that.
I love that how you know everychild has a team, but how every
educator has a team around themas well, so no one's doing the
work alone.
They're not being isolated.
I really want to drive homethat you know we do get tend to
get isolated in education, buthow can we not be isolated?
How can we collaborate withthose around us?
(52:22):
Because every school's gotpeople around them.
It's.
How do we engage with them?
How do we start thoseconversations and how do we have
meaningful conversations tohelp us learn and grow?
But also, you know, with uslearning and growing, it will
help our students in the longrun, as it goes.
So the last thing I'd like toask is how can the audience
connect with you guys and learnmore about Jigsaw Learning, the
(52:45):
collaborative response and yourpodcast?
Kurtis Hewson (52:48):
Yeah, so I'm personally on all the socials.
You can search out JigsawLearning on any of those socials
as well to be able to connect.
We're continuously sharing andengaging with people there.
Our home base is the website,so jigsawlearningca.
That's a ca on there and it'sfilled with free webinars,
(53:11):
resources, the podcast links orsearch collaborative response,
and it'll get you there as well.
I would love to reach out andhelp support in any way that we
can around this work.
Principal JL (53:26):
Great, and I will have that information in the
show notes so make it easy forpeople that are listening to the
show to really get connectedwith you guys and the work you
do.
Well, curtis, this has been a,I would say, awesome
conversation.
I've learned so much just bylistening to your journey, your
story and kind of how you guysare helping.
(53:47):
You know education not just inCanada, but now you guys are
coming down and helping schoolsin the US as well, and so I
would really strongly encourageyou guys to connect with Curtis
and Lorna and the work they do,because I really believe the
work they're doing will impactwhat you guys do and help you
(54:10):
guys not be isolated and be thatcollaborative team that you
guys deserve to be.
And so I really think the timeand and I'm really humbled for
you to come on this podcasttoday and thank you for for
being here.
Kurtis Hewson (54:24):
Thanks, jeff, and I would encourage anyone search
out the book collaborativeresponse.
It is filled with resources.
There's a companion websitethat goes with it.
I think it will help not onlyconfirm things that you're doing
, but that I think it will helpnot only confirm things that
you're doing, but share somefurther thoughts on how we can
really make the work we dotogether as impactful as
(54:45):
possible and make as great adifference for kids as we
possibly can.
Jeff, I love any chance we getto have a conversation, love the
work you're doing and um justtrying to lift up others and
engaging in your ownprofessional learning.
So thank you for all you do, myfriend.
Principal JL (55:03):
You bet I appreciate you too, Kurtis.
Hey, have a great day.
Kurtis Hewson (55:06):
You too.
Principal JL (55:08):
I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as
I did recording it.
Kurtis was a phenomenal guestand I really enjoyed his
insights on his educationaljourney.
We will have more informationabout Kurtis and how you connect
with him at the bottom of theshow notes here on this episode.
We're also giving you access toan overview of Collaborative
(55:28):
Response article, but as well asan introductory chapter of his
bestseller CollaborativeResponse.
I encourage you guys to checkit out and until next time,
always look to be 1% better.
Hey there, educational leaders.
It's great to be back foranother episode of the
Educational Leadership Podcast.
In today's episode, I got theprivilege and the honor to sit
down with Kurtis Hewson.
Kurtis is a award-winningformer administrator and teacher
, as well as a teaching facultyat the post-secondary level.
(00:22):
He is the co-founder of JigsawLearning and co-author of the
text Collaborative Responsethree fundamental components
that transform how we respond tothe needs of the learners.
He currently works with schooldistricts and schools nationally
and internationally.
If I didn't mention, Kurtis isfrom Canada, where he will talk
(00:44):
about his educational journey inCanada, but he also is reaching
out and working internationallywith other schools in other
countries such as Australia,United States, and Canada, just
to name a few of the countriesthat he has been working with in
education and schools.
And what's phenomenal aboutlistening to Kurtis speak is
(01:08):
about how he really talks aboutschool and being collaborative
and how we can all respond ineducation.
No matter where we're at in theworld, we can educate in a
collaborative way Withoutfurther ado.
Here is a conversation withKurtis Hewson.
Hey there, educational leaders.
(01:40):
Today I'm excited to bring toyou guys a special guest on the
show today.
His name is Kurtis Houston.
Welcome, Kurtis, to the show.
Kurtis Hewson (01:50):
Thanks, jeff, really excited to have a
conversation with you.
Principal JL (01:54):
All right, Kurtis.
Now I always like to start.
Why education.
What propelled you to become aneducator in the first place?
And then, once you go throughthat, I'd like you to talk about
your teaching career.
And then what got you intoschool leadership?
Kurtis Hewson (02:11):
Yeah, so I have family members.
My mother was a teacher,grandmother, other family
members.
So I often say my firstpracticum was putting up
bulletin board materials in mymother's classroom when I was 11
years old and I really camefrom a spot, jeff, that I just
(02:31):
wanted to make a difference forkids and it seemed to me that
the best place to do that wasthrough education, and it's been
the driving mantra all the waythrough of to where I am now.
The work I'm doing is stillabout how can we make a
considerable impact, make adifference for kids, and so
classroom teaching began.
(02:51):
It's a bit of a funny story.
I started oh, it's gettingalmost 30 years ago and at a
time where it was difficult tofind positions here in our home
province of Alberta, I moved 12hours north into northern
Alberta for what was a six-monthmaternity leave teaching grade
three.
Six months turned into nineyears and it moved into
(03:14):
administration.
I actually moved intoadministration quite early in my
teaching career.
The school division was reallytrying to grow their own leaders
, being as far north as theywere, and I was in a school with
a fantastic veteranadministrator who they said it'd
be nice if we could havesomebody that could learn from
(03:35):
him.
So it was actually my secondyear of teaching that they
assigned me a small portion Ithink it was a 0.1.
I think I maybe had two periodsof admin duties per week, but
they also helped to pay for somemaster's work.
So I got into my master's reallyearly around educational
leadership and then from theremoved into principalship through
(03:59):
a few different schools and itwas through that work that I
began what was the work that Ido now in a very organic and
unassuming way.
But from that principalshipI've also had the opportunity to
teach at the university levelin education departments here
(04:19):
within the province at a coupledifferent universities and it's
led me to the place now where Iget to work with schools and
school districts across NorthAmerica.
I've worked with schools inIceland, australia, all over the
world.
It's been super, super excitingand, yeah, it all comes back to
the do it to make a difference.
(04:40):
Just want to make a differencefor kids.
Principal JL (04:43):
Great and I think that's where a lot of educators
I mean they get into this tomake impact.
Right, they want to impact, youknow, other people, they have
that drive, they have that, thatpassion for that and that's
what makes education so unique,to where you get to have an
impact on people because, likehere in America, everybody you
know is required to to gothrough public education or, you
(05:07):
know, private education.
Some sort of education, yeah,touches on everyone, yeah, and
we're trying to, like, get thesepeople in and help them learn,
but, at the same time, theimpact and the drive that you
can make on the future of yourcountry in your case, Canada,
for us it's the US, you know andto have that impact and to be
able to inspire those learnersand to help them learn and grow,
(05:29):
it makes it all worth it right.
Kurtis Hewson (05:32):
Jeff, that it's a cascading effect, right, like
if I can have the impact on astudent, a child, a teacher,
that just cascades across, likeyou say, to impact a country, a
society.
It's exciting.
Principal JL (05:46):
Yeah, we have a saying here that we have
societal issues that will cometo our doorstep and we have to
help solve them and help getpeople and to make them better
so they can go out and helpmaybe solve some of those
societal issues as well.
And so that's something we kindof take seriously, because we
get to see those thingsfirsthand and how are we
impacting and helping those well, and so that's something we
kind of take seriously becauseyou know we get to see those
things firsthand and how are weimpacted in helping those kids,
(06:09):
and so that's what I love abouteducation.
No matter where you're at right, I kind of hear the same
stories that you have told.
You know, here in the US, therein Canada, and education is
very similar.
How we educate and how we helpkids learn is very similar.
And so let's talk about youknow you went from teaching into
school leadership.
(06:29):
What were some of the biggestchallenges you faced?
Kurtis Hewson (06:32):
Yeah.
So I think, first off, I neverunderstood how isolating
teaching was in the classroom,and that was something I never
experienced as an observer,seeing particularly my mother as
a teacher.
I got into the classroom and Idid not.
I assumed we're all together,we are around people all the
(06:54):
time, but it was isolating inthat classroom to be able to
connect with colleagues.
Sometimes there was days whereit didn't feel like I got to
connect with another adult inthe building until the very end
of the day.
And so, as I shifted intoleadership, there were two
thoughts or driving aspects ofit.
The first was how can we makethis more collaborative?
(07:16):
How could we be learning fromone another?
And especially for me as ayoung administrator, I certainly
did not have the solutions andI tried to adopt the Superman
syndrome of if people bring me aproblem, I'll try and fix it.
But it was evident very quicklythat I didn't have the skill
(07:36):
set to be able to fix that.
The experience and I think ithelped me tremendously become a
way more effective leader intime, because I learned early on
don't have the answers, but setup structures to determine the
answers.
How can we bring the solutions,the people with the
(07:57):
difficulties.
If we could bring thechallenges, if we could bring
them together to work through it, that is way more powerful than
trying to solve that all bymyself.
I heard somebody call it asgoose leadership the idea that
somebody comes into your office,squawks, dumps a load and then
(08:18):
leaves for you to clean up.
And again, I found out veryearly that wasn't going to work
for me.
So I think the challenges that Iexperienced early on, coming
from this mindset, was how, howdo we create structures,
possibilities, ways that peoplecould work that would then just
(08:40):
become culture, that it's justnatural that we are working
together, and in the last schoolthat I went in as principal, I
often say it was an amazingschool great teachers, great
staff doing great things forkids, but isolated islands of
excellence.
Sometimes the challenge oneperson was having in the room.
The solution was three doorsdown and we didn't know because
(09:03):
we didn't have ways for peopleto interact effectively with one
another.
So we that was really theimpetus that has become the work
that I do now, working withschools and school jurisdictions
, about setting up what we calla collaborative response, that
we're responding to the needs ofstudents, but nobody is doing
(09:24):
this on their own.
We have very, very intentionaland strategic ways of organizing
ourselves.
To do that.
Principal JL (09:32):
Yeah, you really hit on a few things there that I
even was thinking about.
To my you know my experience asa teacher, where there's times
where you're so classroomfocused and you're just trying
to get the things done in yourroom and trying to do the best
you can, you sometimes forget,hey, you have a neighbor that
you know, in my, my case, teachmath.
You have a neighbor thatteaches math too.
(09:53):
So, um, how you collaborate andand I kind of we here in
America, we, we talk aboutprofessional learning
communities a lot.
It's kind of what we do orthat's kind of the buzzword in
America and you know, with yourcollaborative responses and
everything, it really it reallykind of fits some of that.
You know.
We, we got to collaborate witheach other and how we do that,
(10:15):
you know.
Going from that, I mean, youkind of taught, kind of alluded
to it a little bit.
You kind of saw a problem andyou started figuring out this
issue or trying to find asolution to the issue.
So what was that issue?
And if I'm going to take a leaphere and I'm going to, you know
, this is kind of maybe whereyou started getting into finding
that solution and maybe goinginto co-founding the Jigsaw
(10:38):
Learning.
Is that right on that?
So kind of take us through thatand how that all evolved and
what inspired the co-founding ofJigsaw Learning and the vision
behind it.
Kurtis Hewson (10:50):
Yeah.
So again that last school thatI mentioned as the principal of
it we really started to thinkabout how could we be working
together in more effective waysand it was founded initially on
professional learningcommunities more effective ways,
and it was founded initially onprofessional learning
communities.
The work of Richard Dufour andRebecca Dufour were really
(11:10):
impactful and inspirational, butwe actually found it wasn't
enough.
We were establishing strong PLCstructures and we found that
there were still studentsslipping through the cracks, not
by anyone's lack of attentionor passion, it was just systems
that weren't stronglyestablished.
(11:31):
So we began to look and operatein some very different ways
that I'd love to describe foryou here in a little bit and
started to connect some of theliterature that was beginning
and started to connect some ofthe literature that was
beginning.
This was mid-2000s, some of theliterature that was just coming
out around, response tointervention and then later on,
(11:51):
multi-tiered systems of supportsand how could that lend itself?
And as we got going, just bypeople talking, we started to
see not only success forstudents our achievement rates
started to climb, and quicklyand significantly but our staff
satisfaction rates started toincrease the teachers that were
(12:16):
trying to ensure success fortheir kids, but on their own.
And at the cusp of burnout, wesaw people starting to get
refreshed.
We saw that passion coming backin and so we, just by people
talking, we started to have someschools come to visit.
I started to get requests tocome out and explain and share.
(12:39):
It was never work that wasintended to be shared beyond our
school.
It was just how we were tryingto structure and organize
ourselves.
And so, as I moved from thatschool and moved into um a role
at a local university uh,teaching, beginning teachers in
the education program the callskept coming in of can you come
(13:00):
out and share this?
Come tell us how you did this.
I started to get requests topresent at conferences and that
and at that point, it was myselfand my later wife, lorna, who
we decided there's a point wherethe calls coming in are
starting to get more and moreand we should be writing some
(13:25):
more and talking about this andreally formulating our ideas.
And it just took on a life ofits own, to the point where I
think it was 2013 where weformed this organization called
jigsaw learning.
That was just the two of usbranded it that way to be able
to engage in this work and thenit was in 2016 that I moved into
(13:49):
it full-time I it couldn't besomething off the side of the
plate.
It was now at a place where itwasn't schools reaching out, it
was school districts reachingout and saying how can you help
share some of this work, thiscollaborative and we came to
call it collaborative response,because saying, well, it's kind
of like PLCs with an RTI elementand some other things in it
(14:12):
wasn't a really great way todescribe the framework or what
we've now come to understand isreally a mindset, it's a way of
thinking in your school.
So it took off and then just itwas exciting to begin working
with different systems andjurisdictions.
We've had chance now to workwith different ministries around
(14:33):
.
How could we utilize this as adriving overall way of of, uh,
engaging in schools and goingback to where you started, jeff.
Usually schools that haveengaged in PLC work, when they
see this, they go oh, mygoodness, this is our next step.
This would take us even furtherthan the success we're seeing
(14:53):
in PLCs.
I love it when a school sayswe're interested in this, but
we're already doing PLC work,and I say, oh great, then you
are incredibly well poised.
You're not going to give upthat work, but we're going to
add another layer to it.
Principal JL (15:07):
Yeah, no, and so we are a PLC school and we're
very good about setting thattime apart.
This is what we do.
It goes per student, by target.
You know we're trying to makesure kids are getting the
interventions, because our PLCworks really driven around, you
know, helping kids interveninginto kid's education, and we set
(15:29):
intervention time, you know,aside every day, except for
Wednesday because that's our PLCday.
But on Monday, tuesday,thursday, friday, we have
dedicated intervention time towhere teachers can request
students can request teachers,and we're doing this at a
building of a thousand studentsand so, and so we have to have a
(15:52):
particular system in place toget people to where they need to
go, cause it's, it's a wholething.
We could, we could talk aboutthat for days, but I love how
it's collaborative response andkind of like how you've taken
that and really elevated thatPLC work.
And so your book, collaborativeResponse, outlines three
(16:13):
foundational components.
Can you take us through theseand why they're essential for
schools?
Kurtis Hewson (16:19):
Absolutely.
And, jeff, when I follow up, I'mgoing to share with you a
overview of CollaborativeResponse article that, if
anyone's interested can accessthat.
It's available at our website,jigsawlearningca as well.
I'm also going to share withyou an introductory chapter of
the book that anyone candownload to explore more.
(16:39):
In both of those we talk aboutthree foundational components,
the first being collaborativestructures and processes, the
second being data and evidence.
Evidence and the third beingcontinuum of supports.
And our visual actually isthree puzzle pieces where these
are connected, becauseseparately I would say they have
(16:59):
less impact than when we startconnecting all of those pieces
together in a really thoughtfuland aligned system.
We often say to schools whenyou're in beginning your
collaborative response work,buckle in, because you're, it's
(17:19):
going to be two, three, four,five years of implementation.
It's not that you're going toread the book and say, awesome,
we're going to have thisestablished by next month.
It takes time as, as you'rebuilding out, we often say
you're, you're establishing aculture of collaborative
response and culture doesn'tjust shift overnight.
So each of those three pieces,I'm going to break them down.
The first is collaborativestructures and processes, and in
(17:40):
the little graphic it's twiceas large as the other pieces,
because I believe, and just likeyou're saying, you have to
create structured andintentional collaboration within
your building.
But we talk about four layersand I've worked with schools
that have 25 students and I'veworked with schools that have
2,500 students and these fourlayers always they apply and
(18:03):
think of them as categories.
So I'm going to walk us throughwhat these are as quickly as
possible.
The first layer we refer to itas collaborative planning and,
again, think of these asoverarching categories.
If you're doing PLC work, boom,it fits into collaborative
planning, the idea that we wantteachers coming together working
on things that will impact allstudents and that designation of
(18:25):
you're probably not looking atindividual students in those
conversations.
You're looking at overallcohorts.
We're examining data,determining what steps we're
going to take.
Typically, in thatcollaborative planning layer,
you're often doing it withcolleagues who share a similar
teaching assignment or a similargrade level.
If you're in elementary highschool, I want a math department
(18:47):
that's working together, ascience department.
We have seen some schools,though, that also set up other
structures that still fit withinthat category of teachers
working together to benefit allstudents.
Okay, I'm going to skip thesecond layer and I'm going to go
to the third, I'll come back tothe second.
The third layer is what we calla school support team.
So in my own school it wasmyself as principal, our
(19:08):
assistant principal, ourlearning support teacher.
Own school it was myself asprincipal, our assistant
principal, our learning supportteacher, and we had a family
school wellness coordinator thatwe shared with our high school.
In our community the four of usevery Thursday morning would
meet and determine who are thestudents needing supports beyond
the classroom.
Now, in a school your size,jeff, you might not have one
team.
That's at that level.
You might have several.
(19:29):
I worked with a large school of2000 here, that's not too far
from our home, and in theirschool of grade 10 to 12,
there's a grade 10 team and 11team and a 12 team and they
cycle with the students.
But essentially that layer iswhat are we doing for students
who need support beyond theclassroom?
And in time it's students landon that agenda through referral
(19:51):
processes and systems that arein place.
The fourth layer we call thecase consult and it's an
overarching umbrella.
All of these are categories butthis one's probably the easiest
to understand and it's the onethat's most prevalent in schools
.
We refer to any time we'remeeting about one student, it
falls into that layer.
(20:11):
Refer to any time we're meetingabout one student.
It falls into that layer.
Okay, so when we have a crisisthat has happened with a student
and we're bringing in externalsupports and services to be at
the table, that would fall intothat layer.
When we are planning aspecialized program for a
student with some moreexceptional needs and the
parents are at the table, thatfalls into that layer.
(20:33):
I worked with one school, alarger high school, when they
looked at these four layers andheld up what they did in their
school, they found out that mostof the things and really good
structures, but most of themfell into that case consult
layer that fourth layer, andthey went oh, this is why we
feel exhausted, overwhelmed.
It feels like we're playingwhack-a-mole, one kid at a time.
You're always going to have aneed to come around the table,
(20:58):
around certain students, butthrough this layering we ensure
less and less students get thereand the ones that do are the
ones that need to.
So we had these in place withinour school, but there was still
something missing.
There was still something thatwas not quite there and even
though we were a school ofaround 350, 350 students.
(21:19):
The structures at the third andfourth layer that school support
team and case consult it feltoverwhelming.
We felt like we weren't keepingup with what the needs were.
Overwhelming.
We felt like we weren't keepingup with what the needs were.
And you know, sometimes ateacher would say, oh, I've done
everything.
And we would have to have aconversation of what do you mean
by everything?
Because sometimes thatabsolutely was the case,
(21:41):
sometimes not so much.
And so we introduce a secondlayer of team and this radically
changed everything.
In fact, we often, whenintroducing this to schools,
will say we're going to reducethe number of meetings in your
school by adding one more, andit's the second layer.
We call it the collaborativeteam meeting.
(22:02):
And the collaborative teammeeting, jeff, it looks like
you're talking about kids, butyou're not.
You're using it as aopportunity to examine practice.
So do you mind if I take just acouple moments and describe
just the basic structure of whatthat looks like?
Principal JL (22:17):
no, go right ahead yeah.
Kurtis Hewson (22:19):
So what we do is, let's say, in my school I,
let's say in your school, youhave plcs that are set up and
and I've done this with manyhigh schools where typically
that's happening in departmentsor people that are teaching
similar teaching assignmentswhen we get into the
collaborative team meeting weactually mix those people up.
(22:41):
So I engage in collaborativeplanning which in your case you
call PLCs with those that I'mteaching a similar assignment,
your case you call PLCs, withthose that I'm teaching a
similar assignment.
In elementaries it's often ingrade level teams or, you know,
multi-grade level teams, andmaybe there's a one, two team, a
three, four team.
In the collaborative teammeeting we start looking for
(23:02):
opportunities to mix thosepeople and the way we do it is
through this particular process.
So let's imagine you and I aresitting at the collaborative
team meeting table and we startoff by saying Jeff, who's a
student you've brought tocelebrate, and there's all sorts
of meeting structures in place.
You know the roles and norms,all of these really highly
(23:23):
structured elements to ensurethat we are maximizing our time
together.
But we go, jeff who's a studentto celebrate, and you say well,
I have this one student andthis is a great celebration.
I've seen we instantly turn andsay, all right, what do you
think you did that led to thatsuccess?
And so by starting with thatcelebration and really getting
teachers talking about theirpractice what is the things that
(23:45):
they've done that has led tosuccess, which we know.
By doing that over and overagain, we're creating high
levels of collective efficacy.
Someone in the room when Jeffsays, oh, one of the things I
did is I created a little lockerchecklist and it helps the kid
get organized for class.
Someone else in that room isgoing to go.
That's brilliant.
I'd love to see a copy of that.
Just simple little things thatstart sharing.
(24:08):
After a few minutes of thatcelebration, then we come and
focus on a key issue.
So this is what it looks likeand everyone's asked to come
ready.
There's a pre-meeting organizerthat you quickly determine and
in time, we want thatpre-meeting organizer connected
to our data and evidence.
I'll come back to that in asecond and we say, jeff, who's
the student you've brought?
(24:29):
And, 20 seconds or less, what'sthe key issue?
And you identify that I havethis student.
My key issue is assignmentcompletion.
They just I can't get them tocomplete assignments on time and
we go okay, great, who else inthis room has a student that is
struggling with assignmentcompletion?
And inevitably other peoplewill go, uh-huh, yep, and we
(24:51):
make note of names.
But the whole idea is we'retrying to get the attention off
you, jeff, as the teacher, andoff one kid, and onto what is
something that we share.
And then we've startbrainstorming and we start and,
and there's more structure.
I'm being quite quick oroverarching with the explanation
, but we just start throwing outideas.
(25:12):
You know, in my classroomhere's one of the things I do
and you go interesting in mine Ido this and during this
conversation there's no judgingof ideas.
There's no opportunity for Jeffto say, oh, I've tried, that
that wouldn't work in myclassroom.
We just it opens up a space forinnovation and sharing of
practice.
And then we come back and sayall right, jeff, for Marcus,
(25:34):
what's one thing that you'rewilling to take away?
So, like we said, it'ssometimes for someone that's
watching this meeting from afar,it looks like you're talking
about kids, but you're not.
You're just using the kid toleverage a conversation about
practice.
And it's highly solutionsfocused, highly action oriented,
and we found through this itmakes the PLC work even stronger
(25:58):
.
It ensures that we have schoolsthat say we have less and less
students making their ways tothe referral systems that we
have in place because teachers'toolboxes are growing for us.
So that's the collaborativestructures and processes really
powerful process and we oftensay to schools you're going to
get highly intentional andthoughtful on how you create
(26:18):
your teams.
But look at these four layers.
The collaborative team meetingbecomes the difference maker.
Principal JL (26:24):
Yeah, it sounds like basically the schools that
are out there doing the PLC work, which are a ton of them.
This will be, you know, like yousaid earlier, it'd be maybe
that next step to strengthenkind of what you do and elevate
it to where you're maybe havingless people fall through the
cracks.
And it's really interesting tohear a lot of the systematic
(26:46):
approaches and the differentways of doing it.
I really like the idea ofgetting people out of their
departments and cross, you know,disciplining problems.
We kind of do that with ourschool improvement team.
I kind of require to have aperson from each department
represented on the team, soeverybody that's at the table
(27:09):
when we're trying to findsolutions to an issue are having
a seat at the table to wherethey can go back to their
particular departments and bringback some different feedback
and different things.
And so I mean we kind of itsounds like, you know, I'm kind
of thinking through the thingswe do.
We kind of like do some of thisstuff, but I mean this might be
something we definitely forsure look at, maybe strengthen
(27:32):
what we do, even better.
And.
Kurtis Hewson (27:34):
Jeff, we sometimes have some schools say
so, do we stop doing our PLCmeetings and do these meetings
instead?
And we say no, no, no, you keepyour PLC work.
That's really powerful, butwhat we're going to do is every
usually it's four to five weekswe're going to infuse this
approach in as well.
So when we first started in myschool, we had grade level PLCs.
(27:56):
We had embedded time weekly inthe timetable and we'd say, all
right, every fourth meeting youcan expect the principal to come
join the learning supportteacher to come join some other,
our family school liaison.
We're going to create um, aconversation that looks like
what I described, but we startedit within our regular teams.
(28:16):
But what we found over time isbecause the focus is on key
issues.
We were struggling before whenit was well, I want to talk
about bradley and the peoplearound the table when it was in
grade level teams, they'd beaware of Bradley just because of
the work that they're doing.
But when we started to mix teamsand especially at a high school
(28:37):
, where if I'm in a mixed teamconversation and I bring up
Bradley, I'm going to have fourpeople around the table
completely disengaged, becausenot only do I not teach Bradley.
I don't even know what that kidlooks like right now, but when
you focus it on the key issue,now we can start mixing those
teams.
So it's, it just creates onemore layer and, especially
(28:59):
thinking about your high school,it becomes exciting when
somebody shares.
You know, one of the things Ido in the gym is this and
someone else says that'sinteresting.
How could I look at that in mymy english classroom for how I
do this?
Like it just starts opening updifferent possibilities and
different conversations.
I had one high school that'swhere a teacher had said I've
(29:21):
been in the school a long time,I'm I'm friendly with all of my
colleagues, but I've never had aconversation about practice
with someone from that wing ofthe building.
In fact, I don't even often godown that wing of the building
because it just I don't need to.
It creates multiple networksand then we know this creates
(29:42):
huge impact on teacherwell-being, teacher
connectedness.
No one's isolated in this work.
Principal JL (29:48):
Yeah, I really, I really love how trying to bring
everybody together across thebuilding is a powerful way to
really collaborate and to helpthemselves get better, but also,
you know they're going to helpstudent learning in the process
of that.
So what advice would you giveto principals, district leaders
that are out there listening,that want to maybe start
(30:10):
implementing collaborativeresponse practices but aren't
sure where to begin, like what?
What advice would you give themon that?
Kurtis Hewson (30:18):
yeah, I would definitely say check out
jigsawlearningca.
We have a ton of resources thatare available there, including
a page that is specificallyabout introducing collaborative
response in your school.
It's overwhelming when you seeall of the pieces come together
because, on top of what I'vejust shared with you in time, we
(30:40):
want that the data and evidenceis informing every one of those
conversations and in fact, westart color coding our data so
that in the collaborative teammeeting I'm not bringing
students with key issues thatare my most at risk students.
In fact, we know they'realready being attended to in one
of our other layers.
We actually say, if you'regoing to color code your data,
let's say red, yellow, green,red being not yet meeting
(31:01):
expectations, yellow beingthey're getting close and green
being meeting expectation, andthen we also have a blue of
exceeding expectations.
Then we're going to focus onthe yellow and we had one high
school that said we'vedetermined a yellow criteria as
a kid who's sitting with a 40 to60% in their classes right now,
or you might say a kid that'ssitting at a C level.
(31:24):
If we're looking at alphanumericgrading, we're not looking at
our most intensive needsstudents.
They're already there, they'realready being attended in one of
our other layers.
What we're trying to do isthose kids that are on the cusp,
on the bubble, what could we dothat would have impact for them
in the classroom, which we knowthen impacts all other students
(31:45):
.
And then in time we startconnecting a continuum of
supports so that when we say so,what should we do, it's not
always just brainstorming, it'sreferencing our continuums and
saying have we tried this, havewe tried this?
And getting crystal clear onwhat are the non-negotiable
expectations for instruction inour school that we've determined
(32:07):
and what are the other thingswe could do.
And these tiers of thecontinuum start to align to the
four different layers of team.
And through this we say stoptiering kids, tier your supports
I love that.
Principal JL (32:21):
Stop tiering kids.
Tier your supports, that's, youknow.
That's.
That's a very great thing tothink about, because I think
your supports are what's goingto get those kids where they
need to go, instead of focusingon the individual kids all the
time.
What supports do we have sowhen the kids run through these
systems, they are getting thesupports they needed?
Kurtis Hewson (32:44):
Yeah, and going back to your original question
of getting started, we saythere's those three foundational
components.
In time we want them all toconnect.
But your starting place isprobably looking at your
collaborative structures andprocess.
And we often say for schoolslike your school that already
has some systems in placeawesome, let's start introducing
(33:04):
the collaborative team meetingin and start seeing the impact
that that one structure once amonth will have.
And again we say to schoolsstart small impact that that one
structure once a month willhave.
And again we say to schoolsstart small, start with a pilot
group that can try this.
The collaborative team meetingis very tightly facilitated but
(33:25):
in time, when we can spread itout across our entire school
population, it transforms theway you're talking, thinking and
responding to kids.
Principal JL (33:33):
Yeah, so how do you?
This is a question that came uphow do you battle the mindset
of oh, this is just anotherthing they're making me do
another agenda, a checklist thatI got to do.
How do we have the staff buyinto these different supports?
Because you talked about atightly knit, facilitated,
(33:54):
collaborative process, but alsothe buy-in's got to be there too
.
So how do you help people withthe buy-in?
Kurtis Hewson (34:02):
Yeah, and actually I I always take this
from another perspective.
I've learned through myleadership career that I'm not
worried about buy-in, becausebuy-in in my mind is I'm trying
to sell something and I need youto to buy it, to sell something
and I need you to to buy it.
I instead want to move towards.
How do I get commitment, um, towhat is happening and I
(34:23):
actually I'm not worried aboutseeing whole school commitment
initially, I know that's notpossible for us.
I I want to start with who arethe people that I know can help
to champion?
How can I start planting someseeds with them?
How can we start developing andtrying some of these ideas
within our school and then allowpeople to enter when they are
(34:46):
ready?
But I also believe that as aleader, I cannot force you to
think or change your beliefs onanything for an individual, but
I can set expectations for howwe are going to engage in our
school.
I can say, um, we're going tohave a collaborative team
meeting and I expect everyone tocome ready for that and there
(35:08):
might be some P in fact, I sawit in my own eyes of staff
members that came into thatfirst meeting and if someone's
listening to the audio.
You're not seeing me folding myarms across my chest very
closed.
Who, in time, when theydiscovered this is not about
judging or adding one more thingonto your plate.
It's actually a conversationthat is going to start taking
(35:28):
some things off your plate intime it's.
It's going to give you thoughtsand possibilities and, man, it
starts to become exciting when Ishare out an idea and someone
else in the room goes that'sgold Kurtis, that's a great idea
.
I've seen people transform theway they're going about
supporting students by justbeing part of these
(35:52):
conversations.
So I would say to leaders don'tworry, if not everyone's on
board to start, that's okay,just start, just get going, and
actually you're going to shiftand move and change.
I'm a big subscriber to thechange philosophy of ready fire,
(36:13):
aim, ready, you know.
Plant some seeds, start withpeople who you know are going to
be okay and help you getthrough some muddy parts of the
process, because it's muddy, itis muddy, but then fire, just
fire, get started, and then wecan come and aim, we can adjust,
we can change.
We may realize that we're doingthese meetings too frequently,
not frequently enough.
(36:33):
There's lots of navigation thatwe're going to have to do, but
as a leader, not being afraid tofire.
From our conversations, jeff,you've lived that idea of we're
going to fire, we're going tolearn as we go through and
through that process you'regoing to have people come in at
different entry points.
Principal JL (36:52):
No, yeah, definitely, I know.
You know, when you are tryingto build collaboration within
your school and build thatculture, it does take a lot of
work.
It takes people to, you know,see it.
But then once you do the workand they start seeing success
from the collaboration that youget, then that motivates them
more.
And I'll tell you, my firstyear here as a principal, we
(37:16):
really focused in on the schoolimprovement team and really they
were like well, man, we've donethe school improvement stuff
forever, but we've never seenany fruits of our labor.
Well, within my first year, wesolved a.
We found a solution to an issuethat they said this is an issue
, we got to solve it, we'vesolved it.
Then we implemented change andwe solved the effects of it the
(37:39):
next year.
And it was them saying you knowwhat?
This is the first time that wehave actually did something.
We said we're going to do, wefollowed the rule and we could
see the effects of the changes.
So that motivated them even forthe next year.
It's motivating them right nowbecause we're right now trying
to find a solution to an issuethat is important to us, and
(38:02):
these issues aren't necessarily,you know, we have to score so
high on a certain test.
In this, you know, content area,our issues are how do we get
kids in class, how do we engagekids?
How do we, you know, transitionkids from the eighth grade into
the ninth grade?
These are some of the thingswe're trying to build because
that's part of our culture andthe welcoming piece and wanting
(38:25):
people to feel welcomed andwanted into our school.
That's really important,because I don't think you're
going to have success on theother ends if you don't have
that.
And, of course, the way to dothat is to collaborate.
And so that's really neat tojust to hear how this system
works.
And if people don't havesomething, this is something
that they can maybe look atbringing in and helping them
(38:46):
produce systems if they don'thave anything in place.
And also, how could thiselevate what you already do?
Kurtis Hewson (38:55):
Of that collaborative team meeting
structure I talked about.
It's actually taking whatyou're doing.
Of that collaborative teammeeting structure I talked about
.
It's actually taking whatyou're doing at the macro level,
at the school level, of whatare some school issues and let's
bring people around to helpsolve the CTM.
Focus then on the micro, ofwhat are some issues that you
individually are seeing in yourclassroom and how could we help
to support.
But it's not putting people onthe hot seat, it's through the
(39:17):
facilitated structures beingable to say, okay, this is
actually a shared issue thatwe're seeing across some
different classrooms.
What do you do in your room,what do I do in mine?
And it's it's taking exactlywhat you're doing to try and
create change at your schoollevel and bringing it down to
the micro level.
So I often say to schools youcan't avoid the macro and the
(39:39):
micro like, do them both.
How can we put both in place?
Principal JL (39:43):
No, I really like that.
I think that's kind of onepiece that we maybe got to look
at is how can we help teacherslearn from other teachers to
help practices?
How do we elevate theirpractices?
I'll be honest, my vision fornext year is how can teachers
help student engagement in theclassroom, and so that's going
(40:03):
to be a piece.
How do teachers learn from eachother?
And I've thought of some things.
I won't get into it on thepodcast.
Maybe we could talk after onsome things that I've thought
about to help with that.
But really this collaborativeresponse, the things that you
have thought about to help withthat but really this you know
collaborative response, you knowthe things that you have in
here really kind of speaks tothose things, and I really would
(40:24):
encourage people to take a lookat what you do.
Is there any success storiesthat really stand out from this
work that people haveimplemented that you'd like to
share?
Kurtis Hewson (40:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
So maybe I'll start from.
I'll go back to the micro andmove to the macro.
We've seen numerous schoolsthat have said the culture has
changed.
One is I heard from a teacherwho said I was looking forward
to counting my days forretirement and I'm not anymore.
(40:55):
This, it's, re reignited mypassion for what it is that I'm
doing, because we've understoodnow that the solutions to the
challenges we're having aren'toutside, they're inside there.
We often say, like in yourbuilding, jeff, you have
centuries of teaching experiencein there.
(41:16):
If you're looking for how do weimprove student engagement, I'm
willing to bet you have expertsin your building that are
phenomenal at that.
How do we leverage them aseffectively as we can?
So those are the kind ofsuccess stories that I've heard
from teachers where it feelslike and it goes right back to
where we started.
I want to make a difference,but if I can feel like I'm
(41:45):
making.
We often say to, to to teachers.
This isn't going to make yourwork less like.
You're not going to be able togo home half hour earlier than
normal, but you are going tofeel like your efforts are going
much further than they everhave before.
At the macro level, we've beenworking.
I'll just share one system herein our province of.
Calgary is our largest city andtheir entire public system is
(42:07):
about 150,000 students, 250schools have all adopted this
framework and of course it'sbeen through phases and and
trying to introduce somethinglarge scale has been really
complex and exciting.
But we're seeing now successstories that are coming from
(42:28):
those schools for students andI'll share one rural school
division, a division of about 2000 students or so here in our
province that implemented and intheir fourth year of every
school getting common language,common understanding, utilizing,
of course, not the samestructures, because their high
school of 700, that's not goingto look the same as a
(42:50):
kindergarten to grade 12 of 100students, but we can still use
some the common frameworktogether.
Their director of of uh studentservices at the divisional level
said uh, it was not unusual,and this was in November when
she was talking, so just withinthe first quarter of the year.
She said by this time last yearwe had somewhere between 25 to
(43:13):
30 referrals coming in fordistrict level services beyond
the school.
She said this year we've hadfour.
Four Because the schools it'snot that they're all of a sudden
got better students comingthrough the door?
Not at all.
They have still their samestudent population.
(43:34):
It's just the schools are waymore equipped to be able to
address the challenges thatthey're seeing.
It's not that we have lessneeds, we just feel better
equipped to handle those needs.
So those are some of thesuccess stories that have been
phenomenal.
And of course, then we do havethe quantitative data that shows
(43:55):
student achievement resultswithin our school.
Within two years we shot upliteracy achievement by 13
percent higher for students atat benchmark based on our screen
, which was again you talk aboutseeing those wins as soon as
you saw that it, man, it openedup the desire to let's do more.
Principal JL (44:17):
Yeah, when you see success, you know, and you see
the solutions that you come upwith provide the success from
that, it does motivate you to belike, oh, let's keep doing this
work, because we've seen someof that, you know, within our
building and I know, you know,other people can have those
successes if they have thesetype of processes and systems in
(44:38):
place for them as well.
And and honestly, I'd love tosee more people get into not
being afraid to put these typesof things in the place because
they get worried about it and,oh my gosh, you know, will they?
Will this be effective?
And so I think, when you havethose success stories and you
have the people that have donethe work and they can say, hey,
(45:00):
if it could work for us, itcould work for you, you just got
, like you said, kind of roll upyour sleeve and do the work,
and it's not easy work, but it'swork that's worth doing If you
put the time and effort in.
I want to kind of talk aboutyour building a culture of
collaboration podcast.
That's something that I ran,you know, kind of getting to
know you guys, you know yourwork as well as your podcast.
(45:25):
So what kind of led you tostart that building of culture
collaboration podcast.
Kurtis Hewson (45:32):
Yeah, so of course, as we've been working
through, I've learned more fromengaging with schools and
divisions than I'm sure I'vetaught those schools and
divisions.
Just, you'll come into a schoolthat are utilizing the
structures and processes, butthey've made one tiny addition
or tweak and you go.
That's genius.
(45:52):
So we wanted a way to startsharing out those stories and
those success, and we haveanother podcast called Leading
Collaborative Response that isdirectly connected to this work
of leaders coming on and sharingwhat they've done, what they've
learned through the process.
And then myself and Lorna, whoco-author of the book and
(46:14):
co-founder of Jigsaw Learningsometimes we just sit down and
share.
You know, here's a strategy,here's a tip, here's how you can
do this.
But what we were finding issometimes and it goes exactly to
what you said, jeff sometimespeople would potentially lack
confidence, or sometimes even,you know, I know I need to put
this in place, but I don't knowhow to introduce it.
(46:36):
I don't, I'm not quite sure howI would move forward.
And what we found is there'ssome skill sets around building
culture and having people workin teams that are bigger than
this collaborative response work.
They're they and they.
They span across differentindustries.
So we really wanted to a chanceto break down what are the
(47:00):
tenets of effectivecollaboration in business, in
education, in healthcare and allthese different factors.
And that's really our purposeof the Building a Culture
Collaboration podcast.
Yeah, we bring in educators andeducational leaders, but we've
also tried to expand beyondeducation to just what are
things that we know aboutbuilding effective teams.
(47:21):
I'm a huge believer that in thisworld if we're trying to do it
alone, it's going to be way moredifficult than collaborating.
But collaborating doesn'talways lead to success.
We know that there'sineffective forms of
collaboration where you go ohthat's 45 minutes of my life I
will never get back.
(47:41):
I could have got done more onmy own, but I hope everyone's
had instances of true,meaningful, purposeful
collaboration where you come outand go oh, my goodness, we just
accomplished something that isremarkable here for us.
So that's the emphasis of thatpodcast and I've often said that
(48:02):
a little bit selfishly it givesus a chance to pick other
people's brains to learn.
I see it as a tremendousprofessional learning
opportunity for myself, but thenI also hope that it benefits
others listening and eitherconfirming things that they are
already doing and putting inplace or offering a new idea or
a new mindset.
Principal JL (48:24):
I agree with the whole like learning from other
people, and that's kind of whatI do through this podcast.
I'm actually, you know, havingmy own professional development
by talking to other people inthe profession and what they're
doing and, honestly, I wouldn'thave ran across your work of
collaborative response withoutum re, you know, really
reigniting and this uh passionfor trying to help other
(48:48):
educational leaders.
And so, you know, one way weended up connecting was me going
on social media and throwingout stuff and just saying, hey,
I podcast, and I think you kindof responded to one of my posts
and then we got the talk in andnext thing, you know, we're
collaborating and workingtogether and just telling each
(49:09):
other stories, which you know Iappreciate.
You know those things causethose are things I would have
never thought would happen.
You know, two, three months agoI was just thinking how do I do
all this stuff?
I want I know why what I wantto do is I kind of have an idea,
but then it's really kind ofblown up over the last two to
three months of working withother people and learning from
(49:32):
them what they got to offer, andthen, huh, I really liked that.
I think I'm going to thinkabout how can I implement those
things into my current practiceswith my, with my teachers, my
staff and my students as well.
And so you've accomplished a lot, right From teaching the
leadership co-founding, jake sawlearning, you know.
(49:52):
You got you published a book.
Now you're podcasting.
So what's next for Curtis, andmaybe for Lorna as well?
What's next for you guys?
To continue this journey?
Kurtis Hewson (50:03):
Well, we're super excited.
Every year we host what'sbecome a retreat now around this
work where we bring educatorsand teams from schools and
school jurisdictions here to ourhome community of Lacombe,
alberta.
It's a small group we cap thenumbers at 140, but it's
happening in May and it's areally powerful learning and
(50:26):
networking experience.
So that's coming up.
We're actually just working ona new book I'd say we're about
two-thirds of the way through itthat is focusing specifically
on that collaborative teammeeting structure.
We know that the bookCollaborative Response looks at
the overall, but the new bookthat we have coming out is going
(50:46):
to deep dive that meetingstructure because it is so
powerful.
It's one part of ourcollaborative response but it's
a pretty powerful one, and wejust actually yesterday released
an online course that isfocused on understanding and
facilitating the collaborativeteam meeting.
So if anyone's listening andwants to learn more about that
(51:08):
and learn how to reallyeffectively facilitate and I
would argue there's strategiesand ideas in it that's not just
about the collaborative teammeeting but facilitating any
meeting that can be reallypowerful.
So those are some of the thingsthat are out and again, all of
them with the intent of how canwe continue to expand this work
(51:29):
that we know can have impact forkids and for teachers.
We share that our drivingmantra is every child deserves a
team.
For teachers, we share that ourdriving mantra is every child
deserves a team, and I actuallybelieve every staff member
deserves a team too, and I justwant to play a small role in
helping to transform our systemso that nobody's ever isolated
(51:49):
and no child is ever the soleresponsibility of one individual
in any school.
It's, they're our kids, and howdo we help ensure their success
?
Principal JL (52:01):
I love that.
I love that how you know everychild has a team, but how every
educator has a team around themas well, so no one's doing the
work alone.
They're not being isolated.
I really want to drive homethat you know we do get tend to
get isolated in education, buthow can we not be isolated?
How can we collaborate withthose around us?
(52:22):
Because every school's gotpeople around them.
It's.
How do we engage with them?
How do we start thoseconversations and how do we have
meaningful conversations tohelp us learn and grow?
But also, you know, with uslearning and growing, it will
help our students in the longrun, as it goes.
So the last thing I'd like toask is how can the audience
connect with you guys and learnmore about Jigsaw Learning, the
(52:45):
collaborative response and yourpodcast?
Kurtis Hewson (52:48):
Yeah, so I'm personally on all the socials.
You can search out JigsawLearning on any of those socials
as well to be able to connect.
We're continuously sharing andengaging with people there.
Our home base is the website,so jigsawlearningca.
That's a ca on there and it'sfilled with free webinars,
(53:11):
resources, the podcast links orsearch collaborative response,
and it'll get you there as well.
I would love to reach out andhelp support in any way that we
can around this work.
Principal JL (53:26):
Great, and I will have that information in the
show notes so make it easy forpeople that are listening to the
show to really get connectedwith you guys and the work you
do.
Well, curtis, this has been a,I would say, awesome
conversation.
I've learned so much just bylistening to your journey, your
story and kind of how you guysare helping.
(53:47):
You know education not just inCanada, but now you guys are
coming down and helping schoolsin the US as well, and so I
would really strongly encourageyou guys to connect with Curtis
and Lorna and the work they do,because I really believe the
work they're doing will impactwhat you guys do and help you
(54:10):
guys not be isolated and be thatcollaborative team that you
guys deserve to be.
And so I really think the timeand and I'm really humbled for
you to come on this podcasttoday and thank you for for
being here.
Kurtis Hewson (54:24):
Thanks, jeff, and I would encourage anyone search
out the book collaborativeresponse.
It is filled with resources.
There's a companion websitethat goes with it.
I think it will help not onlyconfirm things that you're doing
, but that I think it will helpnot only confirm things that
you're doing, but share somefurther thoughts on how we can
really make the work we dotogether as impactful as
(54:45):
possible and make as great adifference for kids as we
possibly can.
Jeff, I love any chance we getto have a conversation, love the
work you're doing and um justtrying to lift up others and
engaging in your ownprofessional learning.
So thank you for all you do, myfriend.
Principal JL (55:03):
You bet I appreciate you too, Kurtis.
Hey, have a great day.
Kurtis Hewson (55:06):
You too.
Principal JL (55:08):
I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as
I did recording it.
Kurtis was a phenomenal guestand I really enjoyed his
insights on his educationaljourney.
We will have more informationabout Kurtis and how you connect
with him at the bottom of theshow notes here on this episode.
We're also giving you access toan overview of Collaborative
(55:28):
Response article, but as well asan introductory chapter of his
bestseller CollaborativeResponse.
I encourage you guys to checkit out and until next time,
always look to be 1% better.
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