August 11, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when a Norwegian tour guide discovers her passion for educational leadership? In this revealing conversation, Dr. Dana Goodier shares her remarkable 25-year journey through the educational landscape, from teaching world languages to navigating the complex terrain of school administration.
Dr. Goodier's story isn't one of overnight success but rather persistent determination. Despite completing her principal licensure program in 2011, she waited seven years before landing her first administrative position as a dean. This candid admission offers both comfort and inspiration to aspiring leaders facing similar obstacles. Throughout our discussion, she reveals how department chair roles, committee work, and instructional leadership provided crucial stepping stones toward her administrative goals.
The conversation takes a compelling turn when Dr. Goodier explains the origin of her "Out of the Trenches" podcast and subsequent book. Born from her own challenging experiences, these platforms amplify stories of educator resilience and provide practical strategies for overcoming professional obstacles. Her work reminds us that difficulties in education aren't signs of personal failure but common experiences that can catalyze profound growth.
For current administrators navigating difficult seasons, Dr. Goodier offers wisdom that transcends trendy leadership jargon: reconnect with your fundamental purpose, assess whether your current position aligns with your goals, seek community through professional networks, and prioritize self-care. These practices sustain educational leaders through challenging periods and prevent burnout.
Whether you're an aspiring administrator, a veteran principal facing challenges, or simply interested in educational leadership, this episode delivers practical insights alongside an inspiring narrative of resilience. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with educational leaders who are making a difference despite the obstacles they face.
Visit Dr. Dana Goodier's Website:
Visit Dr. Dana Goodier's Speaker’s Page:
Out of the Trenches: Stories of Resilient Educators (Amazon)
Out of the Trenches Podcast (Apple Podcast)
Follow Dr. Dana Goodier:
Facebook: @danagoodier
X: @danagoodier
BlueSky: @danagoodier
IG: @outoftrenchespc
Threads: @outoftrenchespc
BlueSky: @outoftrenchespc
YouTube: @outoftrenchespc
Teach Better Mid Roll Network Ad
Connect with Principal JL Click Here:
Want to be a guest on Educational Leadership with Principal JL?
Send Principal JL a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1742787866678447e5bdb89c1
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Principal JL (00:00):
Today's guest is Dr Dana Goodier.
She has 25 years of experiencein education, shaping classrooms
and leading schools.
She has taught world languagesand English, has served as an
administrator at every level andhas coached educators.
She's the author of Out of theTrenches Stories of Resilient
(00:22):
Educators and the host of Out ofthe Trenches podcast, where she
amplifies inspiring storiesfrom educators across the globe.
Now let's get to theconversation with Dr Dana
Goodier.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Educational Leadership
(00:49):
Podcast.
Today I'm excited to bring onthe show Dr Dana Goodier.
Dr Dana, welcome to the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
You bet I'm going to go ahead.
Dr. Dana Goodier (01:18):
I'm going to start you off.
I'm going to ask you the samequestion I ask everybody on the
languages.
So it was really the summer jobthat I had during my bachelor's
degree time.
I was guiding tourists in thenorth of Norway and I was using
the languages that I know totalk to these strangers and tour
buses about the sites they wereseeing, and it got me used to
(01:42):
being in front of a group.
That was a good way of just,you know, exposing myself in the
language and you know, gettingused to speaking to people that
you know, having that speakingexperience and having the
ability to tell about things ina language.
And then, when I was finishedwith my bachelor's, I then
(02:03):
decided to go into a master's ineducation.
So it was really just thatrelaying of knowledge about the
place that I lived in and youknow the connections with these
tourists, although that wasquite different than teaching,
but it still was a good way ofjust getting used to being in
front of a group and gettingthat type of instruction that
(02:25):
you do as a tour guide.
Principal JL (02:27):
I bet.
So a tour guide is whatinspired you.
So how did you become a tourguide?
Can you give us a littlebackground on that, sure?
Dr. Dana Goodier (02:36):
So I lived in Tromsø in Norway, which is it's
above the Arctic Circle, it'sbetween the Arctic Circle and
the North Cape of the ArcticCircle.
It's between the Arctic Circleand the North Cape and at the
time it was the only universityin Northern Norway.
They now have several locations, but I've always been
interested in like sites tovisit.
I previously visited the cityas a tourist on the Harttigruten
(02:59):
, which is a coastal streamercruise ship that goes up and
down the coast of Norway.
So I think two years after Imoved there they had a guide
course.
I think it was like over thespring, and I took the guide
course and learned all about thecity and all the details that I
would need to know the museumsand things like that and then
you do some practice guiding inthe bus with experienced guys.
(03:24):
So yeah, I did that for likeeight summers for about 10 years
.
Principal JL (03:30):
Oh, wow, I mean, that's really kind of a cool
background, you know.
So you got some of this realworld experience.
You're out living, you know,outside of the United States and
experiencing all these greatexperiences, which I'm pretty
sure probably helped you.
Now you're an educator.
What lessons did you learn as ateacher that helped you become
(03:52):
an educational leader?
Dr. Dana Goodier (03:54):
So I was, as I said, teaching French for, I
would say, the majority of thetime I taught and I ended up
being a department chair in twodifferent high schools.
One of them was because thedepartment chair left and I was
the most senior personafterwards.
But I think being on theinstructional leadership team
(04:18):
and learning about, like, whatwere the needs of the different
departments and what were someof the ideas that we had in
terms of attendance and, youknow, parent communication,
things like that as aninstructional leader team
leadership team really helped meget interested in leadership.
I also wanted to evoke changein the school like, especially
(04:38):
with that parent communicationpiece.
When I was working at a highschool I would get frustrated as
a teacher, like not being ableto contact parents because we
didn't have the right number oryou know, the lack of, sometimes
support in terms of, like,getting kids to turn in
assignments and things like that.
So you know, I at one of thehigh schools I was a part
material.
I was on a parent partnerscoalition where I worked with
(05:02):
getting parents more involvedand finding out ways of helping
parents understand more aboutthe grading system.
We did standards-based gradingand also like applying to
college and financial aid andthings like that.
So I think some of theseexperiences that I had as a
department chair and justworking as a teacher and being
active on committees helped alot in terms of moving into
(05:26):
educational leadership, andobviously the next move was to
then take the principallicensure program.
So, yeah, I did that for acouple of years, 2009 to 2011.
So it's been a while.
Principal JL (05:41):
Been a minute right.
What I'm hearing you say islike hey, I'm in this teaching
role.
You got active in theleadership side, being a
department chair, being a partof committees which I can relate
to, because, as a teacher, Istarted becoming a part of
committees just to try to help.
You said invoke change and tryto be a part of the change
(06:01):
instead of just sitting back andcomplaining about it.
As a teacher, I got involvedand it sounds like you kind of
did some and try to be a part ofthe change instead of just
sitting back and complainingabout it.
As a teacher Got involved.
It sounds like you kind of didsome of the same stuff there as
well.
So you're teaching, you'regetting these leadership
experiences.
What was it that go?
You know what?
It's time to go become aprincipal.
What was that journey like?
Was there like an aha moment?
(06:23):
Was there some encouragement?
What was it that said when wasthere like an aha moment?
Was there some encouragement?
What was it that said you knowwhat?
I am where I'm at with teaching, but I'm ready for that next
step.
What was that like?
What was the transition?
What did you transition into?
You know?
Just kind of tell us that storyabout that.
Dr. Dana Goodier (06:39):
So I would definitely say, once I finished
the principal licensure program,I applied already in 2011 to
like assistant director jobs anddean jobs, but it took me until
2018 to actually get a dean job.
So you know, I wasn't, itwasn't like a straight and easy
path.
So I think it could have done,you know, maybe resume polishing
(07:02):
, it could have been likeinterview practice, and I ended
up working with the principalcenter, with Justin Bader, a lot
on and just fine, tuning thosethings, I think once I'd
interviewed for a number ofyears.
So the first step was workingas a dean and I did a lot with
attendance.
It was a Title I middle school.
Some schools were the AP withdiscipline, but look at that
(07:23):
school, the APs were in class.
If a school has a dean, theytend to keep deans busy with
those things, and I really triedto build relationships with
kids and not be like the meanlady.
They saw when they got sentdown to the dean's office, it
was really taught home with themand so I was listening to
(07:43):
parents.
So I got a lot of communicationskills through that experience.
Principal JL (07:48):
So 2018, you finally got that job.
You're in the dean positionSounds like you're almost like
practically assistant principalin a lot of ways.
On that end, you're doing someinstructional coaching, which I
think is really beneficial,because then you know where did
it go from there.
You went from dean, did youbecome assistant principal, did
(08:09):
you become a building principal.
Kind of tell us about thatjourney because I would say, you
know, for me, I was at a smallrural school when I became a
principal.
I was, quote unquote, abuilding principal, but I did
discipline and I did curriculumdevelopment, I did instructional
coaching.
I did a lot of things with thatbuilding level principalship
kind of did like some assistantprincipal roles on top of the
(08:30):
building role.
So with that experience, thatkind of led you into the next
step.
What was that next step?
How did it come about and whatare some experiences that helped
your leadership grow in thatjourney?
Dr. Dana Goodier (08:47):
So it was then being like the APO instruction
and curriculum.
So that was where I was workinga lot with especially English
language learners and helpingthe teachers build capacity in
their instruction and workingvery closely with the district
and finding ways to help themnavigate some of the challenges,
especially when there were alot of newcomers also looking at
(09:10):
the enrollment and thatfluctuated a lot.
So I was really for a couple ofyears honing in a lot of
newcomers also looking at theenrollment and you know that
fluctuated a lot.
So I was really for a couple ofyears honing in a lot on that
piece of just, I would say,streamlining the CUNY Google
Learner program at the schoolbecause in the past five years
at that school, so working a lotwith that but also helping kind
of put my influence on schoolculture.
(09:32):
So in that role I wasn't reallyworking with the discipline and
attendance piece, it was reallymore the instructional side and
then supporting PLCs, workingwith different teams and you
know, having them work on, youknow how they could best support
some of these kids that were intheir classes, support some of
(09:52):
these kids that were in theirclasses and you know, also when
we had some veteran teachers whowere more used to working with
the MLLs, having them share outduring PD days to other teachers
and also building staff cultureand positivity.
And then also making sure thatyou know, I was getting into
classrooms even though I wasalso working with kind of the
processing of some of thesemultilingual learners, making
(10:15):
sure I was getting in and seeingteacher practice and then
working slowly with teachersthat get extra support and
checking in with them regularly,even if it wasn't observing.
Principal JL (10:28):
So was that at the middle school level when you
were doing all that?
Yes, so was that at the middleschool level when you were doing
all that?
Yes, okay, yeah, because Iremember, you know just kind of,
when I was looking you up andresearching you, you were a
middle school principal, and sowith that, what are some things
that you learned aboutleadership?
How did you grow in that role?
What are some big takeawaysbeing that middle school
(10:48):
principal?
Dr. Dana Goodier (10:50):
I think once you're in a leadership role,
it's really listening to yourstaff, I think, really starting
off with that and that's makingthose connections early on.
You know you could be in aschool that has, you know, 50%
veteran staff, let's sayteachers that have been there
three years or more and this isjust an example from my
(11:10):
experience and then you know 50%, roughly, staff that were new
or had been there less thanthree years.
But finding out their journey,you know, if they were, they'd
always taught the subject thatthey were teaching, or if they
were new to that, because I hadsomebody who'd been a French
teacher and teaching English forthe first time in 20 years.
(11:31):
So you know, supportingteachers if they were not only
new to the building but also newto the subject area.
Or also teachers who maybe hadalternative certification and
hadn't maybe taught at thatlevel before.
So I think it was really honingin on some of the needs that
teachers had, because it wasn'talways, you know, apparent.
(11:52):
When you first meet with theteacher like you know they don't
always want to see so buttalking with them about their
backgrounds and and then alsolike a challenge in a school,
that is Title I, like you know,with student behavior.
Sometimes you know talking withthem about kind of how they
handle that and then workingwith some of the teachers that
(12:14):
did use some strategies thatworked and then having them
share out during PD or PLC aboutespecially certain students
kind of that were high flyers,so really kind of focusing about
focusing in on teacherstrengths and, you know, them
supporting one another.
I think also is important tomake sure that you aren't like
(12:36):
in an office all the time.
I mean there's someadministrative work you have to
do but I didn't get a rollingdesk but I think you know you
can easily take the laptop withyou if you're going around the
building.
It's not that hard where thereare like campus monitor stations
that have like a little stationwith a room for a laptop.
(12:57):
So standing in the hallway, youknow, for a period of time is
always good.
Being outside when there's thelunch rotation, the kids, you
know, eat lunch and they gooutside for a while and just
kind of being the extra set ofeyes is a good way to build
relationships with students andI think also just making sure
(13:18):
that parents feel comfortablereaching out to you and that
they feel supported because youknow there's parents that are
going to reach out or they'llshow up at the school, no matter
what, but you know that theyknow that their question is
going to be answered and, if youdon't have the answer right
away, that you'll get back tothem within the next 24 or max
48 hours, that you know you cancontact the people necessary to
(13:41):
contact, because I think theparents are the ones that are
going to be writing the reviewson your school for new students,
right?
So you want to make sure thatthey're getting supported,
especially in terms of, likebullying or, you know, if a
student has an IEP, those typesof things, making sure that they
feel like you know they're ableto say what they need to say in
(14:04):
the meetings, like the IEPmeetings, and that things are
being followed through with interms of, if there are other
staff that are involved maybewith a parent conflict, that you
know we're able to resolve thesituation and the parent doesn't
feel like there's any looseends.
Principal JL (14:19):
Yeah, great.
I mean I hear a lot of greatthings in there.
You know you want to make sureyou're communicating well with
everybody, you're buildingrelationships, you're being
visible, you're doing all thethings that good administrators
do.
People that do a good job dothose type of things, and so I
heard a lot of common themes.
You know, you know, when I'vedone this podcast for a while
(14:42):
now, a lot of guests talk aboutsome of the same things over and
over again, and everybody thatcomes on this show has does a
really good job being aneducational leader.
So, yeah, so it's reallyinteresting to see how everybody
, no matter where you're at inthe world or in the United
States, there's some commonthemes to being a great
educational leader, and I reallyappreciate you touching on
(15:05):
those and kind of talking aboutyour experience on that.
Let's talk about your book Outof the Trenches.
What inspired that?
What's the book about?
Can you kind of give us a tasteof it?
And then, what was it thatyou're hoping people will get
out of the book?
Dr. Dana Goodier (15:22):
So I started my podcast Out of the Trenches
in 2020.
And I'd had Darren Pepper onthe podcast and you've had him
on as well on your podcast andso I got connected with him.
And it was after I'd had him onthe podcast and then he left
his superintendency and startedRotossum LLC and I saw a couple
(15:44):
of people who started publishingwith him and I hadn't really
thought about, like this is abucket list item, right, writing
a book right, or things that Iwould be able to share.
And so I did, kind of I put aproposal together and so I
finished, I started the podcastin May of 2020.
And then I put a proposaltogether and signed a contract
(16:05):
for the book in August of 2021.
I'd only written a few chaptersthen, but really the book is
about putting you know, reallyyour why, and thinking about
like how that changes ineducation.
Right, and the book came out in2022, but I think it's a it's
it's not a dated thing, right,cause I think theme of the
(16:26):
podcast is is talking to theeducators about stories of
resilience and what kept them ineducation.
Or, you know, are they doingsomething?
Education is adjacent, and inthe book it's like you know
exercises when you're asking,like, is this role fulfilling
you?
Right, had, if you've been afifth grade teacher for 20 years
, like, is this stuff fulfillingyou?
(16:46):
Or is there something elseyou'd like to explore?
Right, I've heard of people youknow teaching fifth grade that
many years and then they all ofa sudden they go into special ed
.
Right, I mean, I've seen that,like veteran teachers, like all
of a sudden they'll stay at thesame level, but like they'll do
something that's totallydifferent.
This wasn't filling their bucketanymore, working like in French
for a long time and then Itaught some English and then,
(17:08):
you know, I've done the coachingand the dean stuff.
But, like I bet, for me it wasmoving into these other places,
either physical places or justroles that were going to
challenge me or help me try newtools, try new resources, work
with staff in a different way.
So I think it also helpseducators in the book talk about
(17:30):
what got them into education inthe first place.
Right, is that?
Is that still true today?
Right to, even I've I've seenteachers who only have been in
education for five or six years,right, and then they start to
wonder, you know, is this rightfor them?
And, and you know if we exclude, you know, the funding and some
of the other federal things Ithink you know you want to also
(17:51):
think about, like you know, justthe purpose you have as an
educator, right?
Does that still ring true foryou, right?
Or you know, is it something,is there something else that you
could do in the educationalspace, right?
So you know.
And then I weave my story andsome of these experiences like I
said, the many interviews thatI went on before I got an
(18:13):
administrative job.
I weave in some experiencesfrom being a new teacher and
some of those stories into alsostories from people that I
interviewed on the podcast priorto when the book was published.
So, you know, hoping that thathelps inspire people to see like
they're not alone.
Some of the stories that I hadI think other people can relate
(18:34):
to, and also those who Ihighlight in the book.
So you can find the book onAmazon.
It's also on Kindle and on theRoad to Awesome website.
Principal JL (18:45):
Well, that's really cool because I didn't
know that you had the podcastbefore the book and so that's
really really interesting withthat.
And I've listened to yourpodcast and listened to some
episodes about other people's.
You know out of trenchesstories that you have them tell
as well, and so did you have anout of trench, out of the trench
(19:06):
story.
That kind of motivated you intothis direction of starting the
podcast, because I want to gothere next.
You know what motivated you tostart the podcast?
Because I want to go there next.
You know what motivated you tostart the podcast?
Because we kind of heard howthe podcast inspired the book.
What was that moment?
What was your out of trenchstory that got you to that point
and trying to help others.
Dr. Dana Goodier (19:28):
So I started the podcast.
I kind of had an idea to startthe podcast already in like
September of 2019, but I wasstill working on my doctorate so
I had extra time.
After I'd finished it, I lookedinto a book that I'd gotten
mentioned about on the principalcenter it was.
(19:48):
It was on his.
He did like webinars for schoolleaders and somebody mentioned
it's school leader dunk tank.
So it's like there's a lot ofanonymous stories in there about
people who just some negativesituations in districts and at
the time I was coming out of asituation that wasn't great and
some of the you know justexperience with that and I think
(20:11):
like, even though it was atrench moment, like coming out
of that situation, I knew I wasgoing to plow forward right and
find the next greatest thing.
And just like, your experiencesdon't always define you Right
and sometimes if you're in, youknow, school that's not great.
(20:31):
It's not always, you know, it'sdefinitely not necessarily you,
or sometimes it's staff, butit's also if you're a leader or
an aspiring leader.
It helps you realize like whatnot to do.
So a lot of time it's alearning experience as well, and
that's just something I had totell myself.
So I think it was also thattitle was based on, like just
(20:52):
just that I was coming out of atrench in that that period of
time and, like I knew, there'dbe other trenches in life, right
.
There's going to be othereducational trenches but like
some of them are like furtherdown in the trenches, but really
being resilient like holdingresiliency right yeah.
Principal JL (21:15):
Yeah, you bet.
I mean you know what I'mhearing you say is you're kind
of like in a trench in educationat the time and you found some
stories.
You're like, whoa, I'm notalone here.
There's other people that gothrough some of the same things
that I go through and I thinkthat's what's really great about
your podcast and the book isyou kind of talk about those
things.
Is everybody's got a storyright?
(21:36):
Because everybody's got a storyright, my purpose of my podcast
is to connect people To say,hey, you know what, you're not
alone out there.
There's other educationalpodcasts out there to get in
touch with to where they havegreat resources but you're
helping inspire the nextgeneration of leaders.
But also trying to help thosethat are in the seats because
you know we can go toconferences.
(21:57):
You can go to network meetingsand state conferences and
national conferences, but you'restill day to day grinding at
your school.
You might need something tofill your bucket through the
school year.
So I definitely would tellpeople to give your podcast and
listen out of the trenches byDana Goodyear for sure.
(22:18):
Put that on one of your listsfor podcast rotations With that,
you know, I find that reallygreat.
What got you to what you'redoing?
What are you up to today?
You know what are you doing.
Are you currently in leadershipor did you step away from that?
And if so, what got you to?
What made that decision?
And then, what do you do todayto help educational leaders?
Dr. Dana Goodier (22:42):
So I am still working in a school and working
in a leadership position.
I am working a lot with theMTSS process and restorative
practices.
At this time, you know, I wouldsay I definitely have a side
hustle in terms of, you know,speaking and getting out there
and speaking at conferences fivetimes a year roughly.
(23:05):
I do a lot of you know, sendingout proposals, but I'd like to
do more like work with districtsin terms of teams and working
with PLCs or doing keynotes, Ithink.
I think I realized a year ago,you know, I'd like to just held
my speaking skills more, maybethrough another training or
(23:25):
something like that that I knowof different things that they
cost money, right.
So I probably would want to dothat first, because I did kind
of a year ago, contemplatetrying to go out on my own and
just leave the district.
But it's you know, you need tohave, I think, an income and
then when you're ready to stepaway and it could be retirement,
(23:45):
well, I'm ready to step away.
So I don't know, I think rightnow it's just good to make sure
I, you know, get that speakingexperience.
I have been speaking atconferences for about eight
years now and I try to build adifferent one.
Sometimes I do the same oneevery year, but I try to like
rotate different ones and youknow the different audiences
(24:06):
that they serve as well.
But I, you know, really likethe piece of getting in front of
an audience and talking aboutjust various topics that help
leaders and teachers.
And then I would say thevolunteer piece that I do a lot
is being the president of CCFLT.
Principal JL (24:24):
Yeah, talk about that a little bit, because you
do a lot of things, you'rewearing a lot of hats.
Hey, you're an education leader.
You speak in gigs.
I got a podcast.
Hey, I'm the president of Idon't even I know it's CCFLT.
Yes, yes Can can explain whatthat it kind of like.
Just tell us about the workthat you're doing right now and
(24:45):
helping educate leaders, and youknow, being the president of
this organization.
How does that help you be ableto help other people in that
capacity as well?
Dr. Dana Goodier (24:56):
so usually when you hear from a school
leader, they're like on theboard of the Principals
Association for the state, butthis is actually a teacher
association.
It's the World Language TeacherAssociation in Colorado, and
it's basically giving back tothe organization that supported
me when I first started teachingin Colorado.
(25:17):
I would attend their conferences, their workshops, things like
that and I've been on the boardsince 2020 and worked my way
kind of through, you know, beingan exhibit chair and then the
president-elect president due toa resignation, usually one year
, but it's a little bit easierin a year without having to put
on a big conference.
So you know, I think, workingwith a team of educators those
(25:40):
who are still in the classroomteaching world language some of
them are district level coachesfor world language, but it's
really good Also doing, like thedoing the other side of a
conference right, a state levelconference where you're planning
like the program, you'rehelping get the exhibitors set
up and then also, you know,signing a contract with a hotel
(26:02):
and those types of things.
So it's been a pleasure, it'sbeen interesting, you know,
learning about it, and I will bepresident then until May and
then the past president for ayear.
So I got around a couple moreyears left on the board, but
maybe eventually I'll be on theboard of another organization
too, because I like servingeducators in this way as well.
Principal JL (26:24):
I love that.
You know you're going.
You know what I want to giveback.
I want to do things and be onboards and like for me
personally, I haven't reallydone a whole lot of that.
I actually am the presidentelect of Region 4 Nebraska State
Association of SecondaryPrincipals for my state and that
actually just happened thispast year.
So I'll serve two years on thatrole and then I'll serve two
(26:47):
years as president, and so Imean that's going to be an
interesting challenge, a littlebit extra work, but I think it's
.
You know you're starting to giveback to things that got you to
where you're at today, andreally part of my podcast is
going to those regional meetingsand listening to everybody's
stories and go man, that'd bereally great if we could share
these types of stories withother people so they know that
(27:09):
they're not alone.
And that's where you got thatcommunity built up, when you,
when you network and have thosetype of connections, especially
at the state level.
And then, if you're luckyenough to go to national level,
I went to the NationalAssociation of Secondary
Principals, that's the NASSP,but the NAESP also kind of did
(27:30):
their conference together, whichwas a lot of fun because you
could network with a lot ofdifferent people across the
nation and go.
You know what.
This is really cool because nowI'm understanding I'm not alone
.
They go through the sameproblems in Alabama as I do in
Nebraska or New Jersey orFlorida or California, wherever
Colorado even as well.
So those are the best partsabout that is that networking
(27:53):
and learning strategies andgetting your bucket filled and
getting you ready for the nextyear.
So I really appreciate the workthat you're doing for that
organization and giving back toothers.
Now you're also a member of theTeach Better team, so tell us
about your contributions withthat and how did you get
involved with that?
(28:13):
This podcast is part of thatnetwork as well, and I think
it's a really great network tobe a part of.
And you know, I think thisnetwork also connected us.
So can you tell us about someof the things that you do to
help the Teach Better team?
Dr. Dana Goodier (28:27):
Yes, so yeah, my podcast has been on the
network, I think, for threeyears.
I have written many this pastyear, but you know, if you go to
the teachbettercom website andjust put my name in, you can get
all the blogs I've writtensince 2020.
So kind of varying depending onthe time of year, Right, but
there's a lot of blogs therethat are relevant, even if I
(28:49):
wrote them three years ago.
Like you know, taking care ofyourself during the summer or
you know, preparing for thebeginning of the school year or
those types of things.
Know, preparing for thebeginning of the school year or
those types of things you know.
So whenever I have like a topicthat comes to me, like that I'm
experiencing or that I want toshare with others, I'll write a
blog post.
I'm also an ambassador for them, so that's really just helping
(29:11):
share out their content.
It's also it's a group ofpeople educators, and and we
meet once a month and we also dosome TV online, so it's a group
of people that I've gotten toknow over the years.
So, administrative Mastermind,I knew about it because I know I
don't think you were on it inthe spring- I'm learning as I go
(29:35):
here.
Principal JL (29:35):
I'm fairly new, I've got 10 years yeah.
Dr. Dana Goodier (29:39):
So you'll be able to join us in August.
Probably mid-August They'llstart back up in it's 8 am
Central.
I'm usually working out so I'moff camera, but what they're
dealing with you know, whateveris going on, so it's a good way
of just kind of hearing about.
You know some tips that peopleare giving other educators and
(30:00):
you know what people can helpeach other with.
Principal JL (30:04):
Perfect.
Yeah, I actually did one of thevirtual conferences with them
and kind of went through that alittle bit not too long ago.
So, yeah, it's a greatorganization to be a part of.
Thank Darren Pepper for hookingme up to meet Jeff Gargis to
get me on the network.
I think it's gone really welland I really enjoy being a part
(30:25):
of that network as well andbeing a part of the network with
you and other people that areon there A lot of great, great
people that kind of talk to andnetwork with as well.
So, dana, this conversation haskind of just been going really
quick.
We're almost down to the endhere.
You know, I want to talk aboutschool leaders that might be in
(30:47):
their trench right now, orschool leaders that are aspiring
to be school leaders.
What advice would you do toencourage them to get out of a
trench?
Or, if they're an aspiringschool leader, what advice would
you give them on those ends?
Dr. Dana Goodier (31:03):
So, starting off with aspiring school leaders
, you know, like I mentioned,sometimes the job's not always
going to come right away.
So don't give up.
If you finish the program andwant leadership experience
that's outside the classroom youcan still volunteer to do
leadership tasks at the schoolthat you teach at, like you know
(31:24):
, doing stuff with thestandardized testing, like
helping out the testingcoordinator, working with some
of the APs on master schedulingright, helping lead PLCs, those
types of things.
So there are leadership rolesthat you can take on within your
school.
That will still help on yourresume.
I also would suggest for peoplewho are maybe trying to apply
(31:45):
to an assistant principal jobright out of teaching, if your
district has something that'sadmin adjacent, like a dean or a
teacher on a special assignmentrole, instructional coach do
that role for a couple of years,because it is unlikely to hire
out of teaching to be anassistant principal.
So don't give up.
Also, like I said, if you feellike you need some guidance on
(32:07):
your resume, there's a lot ofyou and practice those types of
things.
For those who are in thetrenches, who are currently
working in leadership, you know,I think there's different
things, like I said, that couldbe impacting that trench right?
Right, it could be the schoolculture and climate.
It could be staff culture,climate.
It could be that you're anassistant principal and you're
working for a principal.
(32:27):
That's not easy to work with,right, and I think sometimes
it's just finding out, like,going back to your why right,
it's finding out like is thisplace that you're working at, is
that fulfilling you?
Right, is this, is this workchallenging you for your next
step?
Like, for example, if you're anAP who wants to get the
(32:48):
experience to be a principal,right, is this the right place
to do that?
Because Rudy Caffelli oftensays, like, if you're just the
disciplinarian right as an A,not necessarily getting the
experience that you need to leada building, right.
So make sure that you're outthere visiting classrooms, that
(33:08):
you have the ability to do thatin your role, that you're not
just being delegated to processright, and that you're taking on
tasks and the best principalsout there are those who you know
delegate and find what theirstrengths are.
But also what are the strengthsof the people on or out of the
team, and so you know you havepeople who are in charge of
different things at the school,people who aren't, you know, in
(33:30):
your district being part of,like, the admin mastermind I was
also on the Better Leaders,better Schools mastermind for
about five years.
So those are just groups ofeducators in the US and Canada
(33:52):
who talk about like what's goingon and nobody's there to judge
and you know it's not going toget back to your school.
So you know you can get adviceon like how you can you know
work through that trench and Ithink really taking the time to
help yourself and make sureyou're getting exercise and you
(34:12):
know the just any work,mindfulness and you know taking
breaks throughout the year interms of either family vacations
or for me it's also doing theconferences that are during the
school year to you know, kind ofrecharge at that time as well.
Principal JL (34:27):
Yeah, but hey, those are all great advice.
I really like how you talk tothe aspiring leaders like, hey,
you know what, it might takesome time to get that role.
Don't give up, be persistent.
Might take some time to getthat role, Don't give up, Be
persistent.
Learn from every experience,Take something and get better at
it so you can nail the next job.
I really like that advice andreally you know holistically, as
(34:49):
educational leaders, this is atough job.
You got to take care of yourself, you got to take care of the
people around you.
But also know if you are goingthrough a tough time, it may not
be you, it may be the systemthat you're in, and some people
(35:14):
may have to leave to get abetter start somewhere else if
where they're at is not going tohelp them grow to where they
want to get to.
So you know that's a harddecision because you're talking
about moving yourself and yourfamily and a lot of you know a
lot of things on that end.
But at the same time, if youwant to aspire to be a great
principal and you're not gettingthe experiences, you might want
to find a district that willhelp you with that and be open
and transparent about that.
Not to say that where you're atis bad, just say it may not be
(35:37):
the right fit at times.
So I really love that thosepieces of advice.
So, Dana, if people wanted toconnect with you, how could they
connect with you and where canthey find you if they want to
learn more about your podcastand the things that you do?
Dr. Dana Goodier (35:54):
So my website's danagoodiercom I'm on
LinkedIn, facebook and Blue Skyand X at Dana Goodyear.
I'm also on Blue Sky X andInstagram at Out of Trenches PC.
The YouTube channel is Out ofTrenches PC where you can find
all my episodes, and on mywebsite you can find out about
(36:17):
different speaking opportunitiesthat I do.
I have a newsletter you cansign up for on the website.
And, yeah, ccflt you can gothere and find out more about
the Colorado Congress forLanguage Futures at ccfltorg as
well.
Principal JL (36:30):
Awesome, and we'll link a lot of that stuff down
in the show notes so it makes iteasy for people that are
listening to the podcast to findyou and click and make it real
easy for them to connect ifthey're interested in that.
Well, dana, it was a pleasureto have you on the show today.
I really appreciate your timeand all the knowledge that you
brought to us and I learned somegreat things, and, you know, I
(36:55):
hope everybody got something outof this episode as well, and I
really appreciate you being onthe podcast.
Do you have anything you'd liketo say before we venture off
into the sunset here?
Dr. Dana Goodier (37:06):
Well, you know I'm recording this before
teachers go back in Colorado andI think you know, when this
comes out, probably a lot ofeducators will be going back
into school.
So, despite what your districtmight be facing if there's, you
know, a lot of budget cuts,things like that I think you
know we've got to.
You know, remember our why,remember why we're in education.
(37:29):
You know and see, you know like, continue doing the work that's
making the difference.
And if you're changing roles,you know be the best you can be
in that role.
And you know try not to letsome of these external factors
that you have no control overinfluence your day to day.
Right, I mean, it's going to bepart of it.
But you know, try to do yourbest in your role and work with
(37:50):
your colleagues.
And you know, use the resourcesthat you have available,
whether it's the PD, whetherit's different funding sources
that are already there to.
You know, make the differencein your area.
Principal JL (38:03):
Awesome.
Thank you very much, Dana.
I appreciate being on the show.
What a great conversation withDr Dana Goodier.
If you're inspired by what youheard today, share this episode
with a fellow leader in thetrenches.
Don't forget to subscribe orleave a review, and stay tuned
(38:23):
for more conversations thatempower educational leaders like
you.
Until next time, be 1% better.
Today's guest is Dr Dana Goodier.
She has 25 years of experiencein education, shaping classrooms
and leading schools.
She has taught world languagesand English, has served as an
administrator at every level andhas coached educators.
She's the author of Out of theTrenches Stories of Resilient
(00:22):
Educators and the host of Out ofthe Trenches podcast, where she
amplifies inspiring storiesfrom educators across the globe.
Now let's get to theconversation with Dr Dana
Goodier.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Educational Leadership
(00:49):
Podcast.
Today I'm excited to bring onthe show Dr Dana Goodier.
Dr Dana, welcome to the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
You bet I'm going to go ahead.
Dr. Dana Goodier (01:18):
I'm going to start you off.
I'm going to ask you the samequestion I ask everybody on the
languages.
So it was really the summer jobthat I had during my bachelor's
degree time.
I was guiding tourists in thenorth of Norway and I was using
the languages that I know totalk to these strangers and tour
buses about the sites they wereseeing, and it got me used to
(01:42):
being in front of a group.
That was a good way of just,you know, exposing myself in the
language and you know, gettingused to speaking to people that
you know, having that speakingexperience and having the
ability to tell about things ina language.
And then, when I was finishedwith my bachelor's, I then
(02:03):
decided to go into a master's ineducation.
So it was really just thatrelaying of knowledge about the
place that I lived in and youknow the connections with these
tourists, although that wasquite different than teaching,
but it still was a good way ofjust getting used to being in
front of a group and gettingthat type of instruction that
(02:25):
you do as a tour guide.
Principal JL (02:27):
I bet.
So a tour guide is whatinspired you.
So how did you become a tourguide?
Can you give us a littlebackground on that, sure?
Dr. Dana Goodier (02:36):
So I lived in Tromsø in Norway, which is it's
above the Arctic Circle, it'sbetween the Arctic Circle and
the North Cape of the ArcticCircle.
It's between the Arctic Circleand the North Cape and at the
time it was the only universityin Northern Norway.
They now have several locations, but I've always been
interested in like sites tovisit.
I previously visited the cityas a tourist on the Harttigruten
(02:59):
, which is a coastal streamercruise ship that goes up and
down the coast of Norway.
So I think two years after Imoved there they had a guide
course.
I think it was like over thespring, and I took the guide
course and learned all about thecity and all the details that I
would need to know the museumsand things like that and then
you do some practice guiding inthe bus with experienced guys.
(03:24):
So yeah, I did that for likeeight summers for about 10 years
.
Principal JL (03:30):
Oh, wow, I mean, that's really kind of a cool
background, you know.
So you got some of this realworld experience.
You're out living, you know,outside of the United States and
experiencing all these greatexperiences, which I'm pretty
sure probably helped you.
Now you're an educator.
What lessons did you learn as ateacher that helped you become
(03:52):
an educational leader?
Dr. Dana Goodier (03:54):
So I was, as I said, teaching French for, I
would say, the majority of thetime I taught and I ended up
being a department chair in twodifferent high schools.
One of them was because thedepartment chair left and I was
the most senior personafterwards.
But I think being on theinstructional leadership team
(04:18):
and learning about, like, whatwere the needs of the different
departments and what were someof the ideas that we had in
terms of attendance and, youknow, parent communication,
things like that as aninstructional leader team
leadership team really helped meget interested in leadership.
I also wanted to evoke changein the school like, especially
(04:38):
with that parent communicationpiece.
When I was working at a highschool I would get frustrated as
a teacher, like not being ableto contact parents because we
didn't have the right number oryou know, the lack of, sometimes
support in terms of, like,getting kids to turn in
assignments and things like that.
So you know, I at one of thehigh schools I was a part
material.
I was on a parent partnerscoalition where I worked with
(05:02):
getting parents more involvedand finding out ways of helping
parents understand more aboutthe grading system.
We did standards-based gradingand also like applying to
college and financial aid andthings like that.
So I think some of theseexperiences that I had as a
department chair and justworking as a teacher and being
active on committees helped alot in terms of moving into
(05:26):
educational leadership, andobviously the next move was to
then take the principallicensure program.
So, yeah, I did that for acouple of years, 2009 to 2011.
So it's been a while.
Principal JL (05:41):
Been a minute right.
What I'm hearing you say islike hey, I'm in this teaching
role.
You got active in theleadership side, being a
department chair, being a partof committees which I can relate
to, because, as a teacher, Istarted becoming a part of
committees just to try to help.
You said invoke change and tryto be a part of the change
(06:01):
instead of just sitting back andcomplaining about it.
As a teacher, I got involvedand it sounds like you kind of
did some and try to be a part ofthe change instead of just
sitting back and complainingabout it.
As a teacher Got involved.
It sounds like you kind of didsome of the same stuff there as
well.
So you're teaching, you'regetting these leadership
experiences.
What was it that go?
You know what?
It's time to go become aprincipal.
What was that journey like?
Was there like an aha moment?
(06:23):
Was there some encouragement?
What was it that said when wasthere like an aha moment?
Was there some encouragement?
What was it that said you knowwhat?
I am where I'm at with teaching, but I'm ready for that next
step.
What was that like?
What was the transition?
What did you transition into?
You know?
Just kind of tell us that storyabout that.
Dr. Dana Goodier (06:39):
So I would definitely say, once I finished
the principal licensure program,I applied already in 2011 to
like assistant director jobs anddean jobs, but it took me until
2018 to actually get a dean job.
So you know, I wasn't, itwasn't like a straight and easy
path.
So I think it could have done,you know, maybe resume polishing
(07:02):
, it could have been likeinterview practice, and I ended
up working with the principalcenter, with Justin Bader, a lot
on and just fine, tuning thosethings, I think once I'd
interviewed for a number ofyears.
So the first step was workingas a dean and I did a lot with
attendance.
It was a Title I middle school.
Some schools were the AP withdiscipline, but look at that
(07:23):
school, the APs were in class.
If a school has a dean, theytend to keep deans busy with
those things, and I really triedto build relationships with
kids and not be like the meanlady.
They saw when they got sentdown to the dean's office, it
was really taught home with themand so I was listening to
(07:43):
parents.
So I got a lot of communicationskills through that experience.
Principal JL (07:48):
So 2018, you finally got that job.
You're in the dean positionSounds like you're almost like
practically assistant principalin a lot of ways.
On that end, you're doing someinstructional coaching, which I
think is really beneficial,because then you know where did
it go from there.
You went from dean, did youbecome assistant principal, did
(08:09):
you become a building principal.
Kind of tell us about thatjourney because I would say, you
know, for me, I was at a smallrural school when I became a
principal.
I was, quote unquote, abuilding principal, but I did
discipline and I did curriculumdevelopment, I did instructional
coaching.
I did a lot of things with thatbuilding level principalship
kind of did like some assistantprincipal roles on top of the
(08:30):
building role.
So with that experience, thatkind of led you into the next
step.
What was that next step?
How did it come about and whatare some experiences that helped
your leadership grow in thatjourney?
Dr. Dana Goodier (08:47):
So it was then being like the APO instruction
and curriculum.
So that was where I was workinga lot with especially English
language learners and helpingthe teachers build capacity in
their instruction and workingvery closely with the district
and finding ways to help themnavigate some of the challenges,
especially when there were alot of newcomers also looking at
(09:10):
the enrollment and thatfluctuated a lot.
So I was really for a couple ofyears honing in a lot of
newcomers also looking at theenrollment and you know that
fluctuated a lot.
So I was really for a couple ofyears honing in a lot on that
piece of just, I would say,streamlining the CUNY Google
Learner program at the schoolbecause in the past five years
at that school, so working a lotwith that but also helping kind
of put my influence on schoolculture.
(09:32):
So in that role I wasn't reallyworking with the discipline and
attendance piece, it was reallymore the instructional side and
then supporting PLCs, workingwith different teams and you
know, having them work on, youknow how they could best support
some of these kids that were intheir classes, support some of
(09:52):
these kids that were in theirclasses and you know, also when
we had some veteran teachers whowere more used to working with
the MLLs, having them share outduring PD days to other teachers
and also building staff cultureand positivity.
And then also making sure thatyou know, I was getting into
classrooms even though I wasalso working with kind of the
processing of some of thesemultilingual learners, making
(10:15):
sure I was getting in and seeingteacher practice and then
working slowly with teachersthat get extra support and
checking in with them regularly,even if it wasn't observing.
Principal JL (10:28):
So was that at the middle school level when you
were doing all that?
Yes, so was that at the middleschool level when you were doing
all that?
Yes, okay, yeah, because Iremember, you know just kind of,
when I was looking you up andresearching you, you were a
middle school principal, and sowith that, what are some things
that you learned aboutleadership?
How did you grow in that role?
What are some big takeawaysbeing that middle school
(10:48):
principal?
Dr. Dana Goodier (10:50):
I think once you're in a leadership role,
it's really listening to yourstaff, I think, really starting
off with that and that's makingthose connections early on.
You know you could be in aschool that has, you know, 50%
veteran staff, let's sayteachers that have been there
three years or more and this isjust an example from my
(11:10):
experience and then you know 50%, roughly, staff that were new
or had been there less thanthree years.
But finding out their journey,you know, if they were, they'd
always taught the subject thatthey were teaching, or if they
were new to that, because I hadsomebody who'd been a French
teacher and teaching English forthe first time in 20 years.
(11:31):
So you know, supportingteachers if they were not only
new to the building but also newto the subject area.
Or also teachers who maybe hadalternative certification and
hadn't maybe taught at thatlevel before.
So I think it was really honingin on some of the needs that
teachers had, because it wasn'talways, you know, apparent.
(11:52):
When you first meet with theteacher like you know they don't
always want to see so buttalking with them about their
backgrounds and and then alsolike a challenge in a school,
that is Title I, like you know,with student behavior.
Sometimes you know talking withthem about kind of how they
handle that and then workingwith some of the teachers that
(12:14):
did use some strategies thatworked and then having them
share out during PD or PLC aboutespecially certain students
kind of that were high flyers,so really kind of focusing about
focusing in on teacherstrengths and, you know, them
supporting one another.
I think also is important tomake sure that you aren't like
(12:36):
in an office all the time.
I mean there's someadministrative work you have to
do but I didn't get a rollingdesk but I think you know you
can easily take the laptop withyou if you're going around the
building.
It's not that hard where thereare like campus monitor stations
that have like a little stationwith a room for a laptop.
(12:57):
So standing in the hallway, youknow, for a period of time is
always good.
Being outside when there's thelunch rotation, the kids, you
know, eat lunch and they gooutside for a while and just
kind of being the extra set ofeyes is a good way to build
relationships with students andI think also just making sure
(13:18):
that parents feel comfortablereaching out to you and that
they feel supported because youknow there's parents that are
going to reach out or they'llshow up at the school, no matter
what, but you know that theyknow that their question is
going to be answered and, if youdon't have the answer right
away, that you'll get back tothem within the next 24 or max
48 hours, that you know you cancontact the people necessary to
(13:41):
contact, because I think theparents are the ones that are
going to be writing the reviewson your school for new students,
right?
So you want to make sure thatthey're getting supported,
especially in terms of, likebullying or, you know, if a
student has an IEP, those typesof things, making sure that they
feel like you know they're ableto say what they need to say in
(14:04):
the meetings, like the IEPmeetings, and that things are
being followed through with interms of, if there are other
staff that are involved maybewith a parent conflict, that you
know we're able to resolve thesituation and the parent doesn't
feel like there's any looseends.
Principal JL (14:19):
Yeah, great.
I mean I hear a lot of greatthings in there.
You know you want to make sureyou're communicating well with
everybody, you're buildingrelationships, you're being
visible, you're doing all thethings that good administrators
do.
People that do a good job dothose type of things, and so I
heard a lot of common themes.
You know, you know, when I'vedone this podcast for a while
(14:42):
now, a lot of guests talk aboutsome of the same things over and
over again, and everybody thatcomes on this show has does a
really good job being aneducational leader.
So, yeah, so it's reallyinteresting to see how everybody
, no matter where you're at inthe world or in the United
States, there's some commonthemes to being a great
educational leader, and I reallyappreciate you touching on
(15:05):
those and kind of talking aboutyour experience on that.
Let's talk about your book Outof the Trenches.
What inspired that?
What's the book about?
Can you kind of give us a tasteof it?
And then, what was it thatyou're hoping people will get
out of the book?
Dr. Dana Goodier (15:22):
So I started my podcast Out of the Trenches
in 2020.
And I'd had Darren Pepper onthe podcast and you've had him
on as well on your podcast andso I got connected with him.
And it was after I'd had him onthe podcast and then he left
his superintendency and startedRotossum LLC and I saw a couple
(15:44):
of people who started publishingwith him and I hadn't really
thought about, like this is abucket list item, right, writing
a book right, or things that Iwould be able to share.
And so I did, kind of I put aproposal together and so I
finished, I started the podcastin May of 2020.
And then I put a proposaltogether and signed a contract
(16:05):
for the book in August of 2021.
I'd only written a few chaptersthen, but really the book is
about putting you know, reallyyour why, and thinking about
like how that changes ineducation.
Right, and the book came out in2022, but I think it's a it's
it's not a dated thing, right,cause I think theme of the
(16:26):
podcast is is talking to theeducators about stories of
resilience and what kept them ineducation.
Or, you know, are they doingsomething?
Education is adjacent, and inthe book it's like you know
exercises when you're asking,like, is this role fulfilling
you?
Right, had, if you've been afifth grade teacher for 20 years
, like, is this stuff fulfillingyou?
(16:46):
Or is there something elseyou'd like to explore?
Right, I've heard of people youknow teaching fifth grade that
many years and then they all ofa sudden they go into special ed
.
Right, I mean, I've seen that,like veteran teachers, like all
of a sudden they'll stay at thesame level, but like they'll do
something that's totallydifferent.
This wasn't filling their bucketanymore, working like in French
for a long time and then Itaught some English and then,
(17:08):
you know, I've done the coachingand the dean stuff.
But, like I bet, for me it wasmoving into these other places,
either physical places or justroles that were going to
challenge me or help me try newtools, try new resources, work
with staff in a different way.
So I think it also helpseducators in the book talk about
(17:30):
what got them into education inthe first place.
Right, is that?
Is that still true today?
Right to, even I've I've seenteachers who only have been in
education for five or six years,right, and then they start to
wonder, you know, is this rightfor them?
And, and you know if we exclude, you know, the funding and some
of the other federal things Ithink you know you want to also
(17:51):
think about, like you know, justthe purpose you have as an
educator, right?
Does that still ring true foryou, right?
Or you know, is it something,is there something else that you
could do in the educationalspace, right?
So you know.
And then I weave my story andsome of these experiences like I
said, the many interviews thatI went on before I got an
(18:13):
administrative job.
I weave in some experiencesfrom being a new teacher and
some of those stories into alsostories from people that I
interviewed on the podcast priorto when the book was published.
So, you know, hoping that thathelps inspire people to see like
they're not alone.
Some of the stories that I hadI think other people can relate
(18:34):
to, and also those who Ihighlight in the book.
So you can find the book onAmazon.
It's also on Kindle and on theRoad to Awesome website.
Principal JL (18:45):
Well, that's really cool because I didn't
know that you had the podcastbefore the book and so that's
really really interesting withthat.
And I've listened to yourpodcast and listened to some
episodes about other people's.
You know out of trenchesstories that you have them tell
as well, and so did you have anout of trench, out of the trench
(19:06):
story.
That kind of motivated you intothis direction of starting the
podcast, because I want to gothere next.
You know what motivated you tostart the podcast?
Because I want to go there next.
You know what motivated you tostart the podcast?
Because we kind of heard howthe podcast inspired the book.
What was that moment?
What was your out of trenchstory that got you to that point
and trying to help others.
Dr. Dana Goodier (19:28):
So I started the podcast.
I kind of had an idea to startthe podcast already in like
September of 2019, but I wasstill working on my doctorate so
I had extra time.
After I'd finished it, I lookedinto a book that I'd gotten
mentioned about on the principalcenter it was.
(19:48):
It was on his.
He did like webinars for schoolleaders and somebody mentioned
it's school leader dunk tank.
So it's like there's a lot ofanonymous stories in there about
people who just some negativesituations in districts and at
the time I was coming out of asituation that wasn't great and
some of the you know justexperience with that and I think
(20:11):
like, even though it was atrench moment, like coming out
of that situation, I knew I wasgoing to plow forward right and
find the next greatest thing.
And just like, your experiencesdon't always define you Right
and sometimes if you're in, youknow, school that's not great.
(20:31):
It's not always, you know, it'sdefinitely not necessarily you,
or sometimes it's staff, butit's also if you're a leader or
an aspiring leader.
It helps you realize like whatnot to do.
So a lot of time it's alearning experience as well, and
that's just something I had totell myself.
So I think it was also thattitle was based on, like just
(20:52):
just that I was coming out of atrench in that that period of
time and, like I knew, there'dbe other trenches in life, right
.
There's going to be othereducational trenches but like
some of them are like furtherdown in the trenches, but really
being resilient like holdingresiliency right yeah.
Principal JL (21:15):
Yeah, you bet.
I mean you know what I'mhearing you say is you're kind
of like in a trench in educationat the time and you found some
stories.
You're like, whoa, I'm notalone here.
There's other people that gothrough some of the same things
that I go through and I thinkthat's what's really great about
your podcast and the book isyou kind of talk about those
things.
Is everybody's got a storyright?
(21:36):
Because everybody's got a storyright, my purpose of my podcast
is to connect people To say,hey, you know what, you're not
alone out there.
There's other educationalpodcasts out there to get in
touch with to where they havegreat resources but you're
helping inspire the nextgeneration of leaders.
But also trying to help thosethat are in the seats because
you know we can go toconferences.
(21:57):
You can go to network meetingsand state conferences and
national conferences, but you'restill day to day grinding at
your school.
You might need something tofill your bucket through the
school year.
So I definitely would tellpeople to give your podcast and
listen out of the trenches byDana Goodyear for sure.
(22:18):
Put that on one of your listsfor podcast rotations With that,
you know, I find that reallygreat.
What got you to what you'redoing?
What are you up to today?
You know what are you doing.
Are you currently in leadershipor did you step away from that?
And if so, what got you to?
What made that decision?
And then, what do you do todayto help educational leaders?
Dr. Dana Goodier (22:42):
So I am still working in a school and working
in a leadership position.
I am working a lot with theMTSS process and restorative
practices.
At this time, you know, I wouldsay I definitely have a side
hustle in terms of, you know,speaking and getting out there
and speaking at conferences fivetimes a year roughly.
(23:05):
I do a lot of you know, sendingout proposals, but I'd like to
do more like work with districtsin terms of teams and working
with PLCs or doing keynotes, Ithink.
I think I realized a year ago,you know, I'd like to just held
my speaking skills more, maybethrough another training or
(23:25):
something like that that I knowof different things that they
cost money, right.
So I probably would want to dothat first, because I did kind
of a year ago, contemplatetrying to go out on my own and
just leave the district.
But it's you know, you need tohave, I think, an income and
then when you're ready to stepaway and it could be retirement,
(23:45):
well, I'm ready to step away.
So I don't know, I think rightnow it's just good to make sure
I, you know, get that speakingexperience.
I have been speaking atconferences for about eight
years now and I try to build adifferent one.
Sometimes I do the same oneevery year, but I try to like
rotate different ones and youknow the different audiences
(24:06):
that they serve as well.
But I, you know, really likethe piece of getting in front of
an audience and talking aboutjust various topics that help
leaders and teachers.
And then I would say thevolunteer piece that I do a lot
is being the president of CCFLT.
Principal JL (24:24):
Yeah, talk about that a little bit, because you
do a lot of things, you'rewearing a lot of hats.
Hey, you're an education leader.
You speak in gigs.
I got a podcast.
Hey, I'm the president of Idon't even I know it's CCFLT.
Yes, yes Can can explain whatthat it kind of like.
Just tell us about the workthat you're doing right now and
(24:45):
helping educate leaders, and youknow, being the president of
this organization.
How does that help you be ableto help other people in that
capacity as well?
Dr. Dana Goodier (24:56):
so usually when you hear from a school
leader, they're like on theboard of the Principals
Association for the state, butthis is actually a teacher
association.
It's the World Language TeacherAssociation in Colorado, and
it's basically giving back tothe organization that supported
me when I first started teachingin Colorado.
(25:17):
I would attend their conferences, their workshops, things like
that and I've been on the boardsince 2020 and worked my way
kind of through, you know, beingan exhibit chair and then the
president-elect president due toa resignation, usually one year
, but it's a little bit easierin a year without having to put
on a big conference.
So you know, I think, workingwith a team of educators those
(25:40):
who are still in the classroomteaching world language some of
them are district level coachesfor world language, but it's
really good Also doing, like thedoing the other side of a
conference right, a state levelconference where you're planning
like the program, you'rehelping get the exhibitors set
up and then also, you know,signing a contract with a hotel
(26:02):
and those types of things.
So it's been a pleasure, it'sbeen interesting, you know,
learning about it, and I will bepresident then until May and
then the past president for ayear.
So I got around a couple moreyears left on the board, but
maybe eventually I'll be on theboard of another organization
too, because I like servingeducators in this way as well.
Principal JL (26:24):
I love that.
You know you're going.
You know what I want to giveback.
I want to do things and be onboards and like for me
personally, I haven't reallydone a whole lot of that.
I actually am the presidentelect of Region 4 Nebraska State
Association of SecondaryPrincipals for my state and that
actually just happened thispast year.
So I'll serve two years on thatrole and then I'll serve two
(26:47):
years as president, and so Imean that's going to be an
interesting challenge, a littlebit extra work, but I think it's
.
You know you're starting to giveback to things that got you to
where you're at today, andreally part of my podcast is
going to those regional meetingsand listening to everybody's
stories and go man, that'd bereally great if we could share
these types of stories withother people so they know that
(27:09):
they're not alone.
And that's where you got thatcommunity built up, when you,
when you network and have thosetype of connections, especially
at the state level.
And then, if you're luckyenough to go to national level,
I went to the NationalAssociation of Secondary
Principals, that's the NASSP,but the NAESP also kind of did
(27:30):
their conference together, whichwas a lot of fun because you
could network with a lot ofdifferent people across the
nation and go.
You know what.
This is really cool because nowI'm understanding I'm not alone
.
They go through the sameproblems in Alabama as I do in
Nebraska or New Jersey orFlorida or California, wherever
Colorado even as well.
So those are the best partsabout that is that networking
(27:53):
and learning strategies andgetting your bucket filled and
getting you ready for the nextyear.
So I really appreciate the workthat you're doing for that
organization and giving back toothers.
Now you're also a member of theTeach Better team, so tell us
about your contributions withthat and how did you get
involved with that?
(28:13):
This podcast is part of thatnetwork as well, and I think
it's a really great network tobe a part of.
And you know, I think thisnetwork also connected us.
So can you tell us about someof the things that you do to
help the Teach Better team?
Dr. Dana Goodier (28:27):
Yes, so yeah, my podcast has been on the
network, I think, for threeyears.
I have written many this pastyear, but you know, if you go to
the teachbettercom website andjust put my name in, you can get
all the blogs I've writtensince 2020.
So kind of varying depending onthe time of year, Right, but
there's a lot of blogs therethat are relevant, even if I
(28:49):
wrote them three years ago.
Like you know, taking care ofyourself during the summer or
you know, preparing for thebeginning of the school year or
those types of things.
Know, preparing for thebeginning of the school year or
those types of things you know.
So whenever I have like a topicthat comes to me, like that I'm
experiencing or that I want toshare with others, I'll write a
blog post.
I'm also an ambassador for them, so that's really just helping
(29:11):
share out their content.
It's also it's a group ofpeople educators, and and we
meet once a month and we also dosome TV online, so it's a group
of people that I've gotten toknow over the years.
So, administrative Mastermind,I knew about it because I know I
don't think you were on it inthe spring- I'm learning as I go
(29:35):
here.
Principal JL (29:35):
I'm fairly new, I've got 10 years yeah.
Dr. Dana Goodier (29:39):
So you'll be able to join us in August.
Probably mid-August They'llstart back up in it's 8 am
Central.
I'm usually working out so I'moff camera, but what they're
dealing with you know, whateveris going on, so it's a good way
of just kind of hearing about.
You know some tips that peopleare giving other educators and
(30:00):
you know what people can helpeach other with.
Principal JL (30:04):
Perfect.
Yeah, I actually did one of thevirtual conferences with them
and kind of went through that alittle bit not too long ago.
So, yeah, it's a greatorganization to be a part of.
Thank Darren Pepper for hookingme up to meet Jeff Gargis to
get me on the network.
I think it's gone really welland I really enjoy being a part
(30:25):
of that network as well andbeing a part of the network with
you and other people that areon there A lot of great, great
people that kind of talk to andnetwork with as well.
So, dana, this conversation haskind of just been going really
quick.
We're almost down to the endhere.
You know, I want to talk aboutschool leaders that might be in
(30:47):
their trench right now, orschool leaders that are aspiring
to be school leaders.
What advice would you do toencourage them to get out of a
trench?
Or, if they're an aspiringschool leader, what advice would
you give them on those ends?
Dr. Dana Goodier (31:03):
So, starting off with aspiring school leaders
, you know, like I mentioned,sometimes the job's not always
going to come right away.
So don't give up.
If you finish the program andwant leadership experience
that's outside the classroom youcan still volunteer to do
leadership tasks at the schoolthat you teach at, like you know
(31:24):
, doing stuff with thestandardized testing, like
helping out the testingcoordinator, working with some
of the APs on master schedulingright, helping lead PLCs, those
types of things.
So there are leadership rolesthat you can take on within your
school.
That will still help on yourresume.
I also would suggest for peoplewho are maybe trying to apply
(31:45):
to an assistant principal jobright out of teaching, if your
district has something that'sadmin adjacent, like a dean or a
teacher on a special assignmentrole, instructional coach do
that role for a couple of years,because it is unlikely to hire
out of teaching to be anassistant principal.
So don't give up.
Also, like I said, if you feellike you need some guidance on
(32:07):
your resume, there's a lot ofyou and practice those types of
things.
For those who are in thetrenches, who are currently
working in leadership, you know,I think there's different
things, like I said, that couldbe impacting that trench right?
Right, it could be the schoolculture and climate.
It could be staff culture,climate.
It could be that you're anassistant principal and you're
working for a principal.
(32:27):
That's not easy to work with,right, and I think sometimes
it's just finding out, like,going back to your why right,
it's finding out like is thisplace that you're working at, is
that fulfilling you?
Right, is this, is this workchallenging you for your next
step?
Like, for example, if you're anAP who wants to get the
(32:48):
experience to be a principal,right, is this the right place
to do that?
Because Rudy Caffelli oftensays, like, if you're just the
disciplinarian right as an A,not necessarily getting the
experience that you need to leada building, right.
So make sure that you're outthere visiting classrooms, that
(33:08):
you have the ability to do thatin your role, that you're not
just being delegated to processright, and that you're taking on
tasks and the best principalsout there are those who you know
delegate and find what theirstrengths are.
But also what are the strengthsof the people on or out of the
team, and so you know you havepeople who are in charge of
different things at the school,people who aren't, you know, in
(33:30):
your district being part of,like, the admin mastermind I was
also on the Better Leaders,better Schools mastermind for
about five years.
So those are just groups ofeducators in the US and Canada
(33:52):
who talk about like what's goingon and nobody's there to judge
and you know it's not going toget back to your school.
So you know you can get adviceon like how you can you know
work through that trench and Ithink really taking the time to
help yourself and make sureyou're getting exercise and you
(34:12):
know the just any work,mindfulness and you know taking
breaks throughout the year interms of either family vacations
or for me it's also doing theconferences that are during the
school year to you know, kind ofrecharge at that time as well.
Principal JL (34:27):
Yeah, but hey, those are all great advice.
I really like how you talk tothe aspiring leaders like, hey,
you know what, it might takesome time to get that role.
Don't give up, be persistent.
Might take some time to getthat role, Don't give up, Be
persistent.
Learn from every experience,Take something and get better at
it so you can nail the next job.
I really like that advice andreally you know holistically, as
(34:49):
educational leaders, this is atough job.
You got to take care of yourself, you got to take care of the
people around you.
But also know if you are goingthrough a tough time, it may not
be you, it may be the systemthat you're in, and some people
(35:14):
may have to leave to get abetter start somewhere else if
where they're at is not going tohelp them grow to where they
want to get to.
So you know that's a harddecision because you're talking
about moving yourself and yourfamily and a lot of you know a
lot of things on that end.
But at the same time, if youwant to aspire to be a great
principal and you're not gettingthe experiences, you might want
to find a district that willhelp you with that and be open
and transparent about that.
Not to say that where you're atis bad, just say it may not be
(35:37):
the right fit at times.
So I really love that thosepieces of advice.
So, Dana, if people wanted toconnect with you, how could they
connect with you and where canthey find you if they want to
learn more about your podcastand the things that you do?
Dr. Dana Goodier (35:54):
So my website's danagoodiercom I'm on
LinkedIn, facebook and Blue Skyand X at Dana Goodyear.
I'm also on Blue Sky X andInstagram at Out of Trenches PC.
The YouTube channel is Out ofTrenches PC where you can find
all my episodes, and on mywebsite you can find out about
(36:17):
different speaking opportunitiesthat I do.
I have a newsletter you cansign up for on the website.
And, yeah, ccflt you can gothere and find out more about
the Colorado Congress forLanguage Futures at ccfltorg as
well.
Principal JL (36:30):
Awesome, and we'll link a lot of that stuff down
in the show notes so it makes iteasy for people that are
listening to the podcast to findyou and click and make it real
easy for them to connect ifthey're interested in that.
Well, dana, it was a pleasureto have you on the show today.
I really appreciate your timeand all the knowledge that you
brought to us and I learned somegreat things, and, you know, I
(36:55):
hope everybody got something outof this episode as well, and I
really appreciate you being onthe podcast.
Do you have anything you'd liketo say before we venture off
into the sunset here?
Dr. Dana Goodier (37:06):
Well, you know I'm recording this before
teachers go back in Colorado andI think you know, when this
comes out, probably a lot ofeducators will be going back
into school.
So, despite what your districtmight be facing if there's, you
know, a lot of budget cuts,things like that I think you
know we've got to.
You know, remember our why,remember why we're in education.
(37:29):
You know and see, you know like, continue doing the work that's
making the difference.
And if you're changing roles,you know be the best you can be
in that role.
And you know try not to letsome of these external factors
that you have no control overinfluence your day to day.
Right, I mean, it's going to bepart of it.
But you know, try to do yourbest in your role and work with
(37:50):
your colleagues.
And you know, use the resourcesthat you have available,
whether it's the PD, whetherit's different funding sources
that are already there to.
You know, make the differencein your area.
Principal JL (38:03):
Awesome.
Thank you very much, Dana.
I appreciate being on the show.
What a great conversation withDr Dana Goodier.
If you're inspired by what youheard today, share this episode
with a fellow leader in thetrenches.
Don't forget to subscribe orleave a review, and stay tuned
(38:23):
for more conversations thatempower educational leaders like
you.
Until next time, be 1% better.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd is a thought-provoking, opinionated, and topic-driven journey through the top sports stories of the day.