What if the best instructional leadership doesn’t start with a rubric but with people? We sit down with Dr. Donovan Smalls II to unpack how a former PE teacher and college professor became an assistant principal known for calm under pressure, disciplined time management, and a people-first approach that lifts instruction across a building.
We dig into the pivotal COVID moment that rerouted his career and why choosing to be the solution is the first real test of leadership. Donovan shares how he architects his day—blocking morning walkthroughs, staying visible, and using curriculum work when culture isn’t ready for frequent drop-ins so instruction stays a priority despite bus duty, discipline, and the inbox. He offers candid stories about navigating heated parent meetings with poise, setting boundaries with grace, and keeping the focus on all students, not just the loudest requests. The result is a roadmap for aspiring leaders who want to manage their time, build trust with teachers, and protect the learning environment with emotional intelligence.
We also explore his bestselling book, Beyond the Classroom, and why leading people and organizations must come before leading instruction. Donovan explains how the leadership interview differs from the teacher interview, and how to tell a compelling leadership story that lands the job and sets you up to lead from day one. Along the way, we trade practical examples of classroom visibility that teachers and students actually enjoy, plus the power of national networking to expand your toolkit and confidence. If you’re aiming for assistant principal or principal roles or looking to level up where you are—you’ll find concrete tactics and encouraging perspective you can use this week.
Connect with Dr. Donovan Smalls II:
Website: https://www.donovansmalls2.com/
Instagram: @donovansmalls2
TikTok: @donovansmalls2
Threads: @donovansmalls2
X: @DonovanSmalls2
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovansmalls2/
The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Youtube)
The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Apple Podcast)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Principal JL (00:03):
Today I'm very excited to have on the show Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Donovan has 13 years ofexperience in education and four
years as an assistantprincipal.
Donovan is a dynamiceducational leader, bestselling
author of Beyond the Classroom,and host of the Aspiring School
(00:25):
Leader Podcast.
He currently serves as anassistant principal, school
leadership coach, and anexecutive board member of the
New Jersey affiliate of theNational Alliance of Black
School Educators.
His mission to empower aspiringschool leaders to confidently
step into the leadership rolesand lead with impact from day
(00:48):
one.
Now let's get to ourconversation with Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother exciting episode of the
(01:08):
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I am so excited to haveon the show Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Donovan, welcome to the show.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (01:21):
Thanks for having me, Jeff.
I'm excited.
Principal JL (01:24):
All right, Donovan.
I'm going to go ahead and askyou the same question that I
asked everybody on this show.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (01:36):
So I really didn't see myself
becoming an educator when I wasyoung.
I don't have that story of aninspirational teacher that I
looked up to and wanted to walkin their footsteps.
I think education really foundme.
I was one that loved sportsgrowing up.
I continue to love sports,played it, and that was really
(01:57):
my path.
I thought I was going to be acollege basketball coach, which
I did coach at Virginia StateUniversity for the women's
basketball team for two years,really enjoyed that experience.
Division II school, we were top10 in the country.
But I did undergrad, I majoredin health and exercise science,
health and exercise scienceteaching.
And so that kind of just put meon a path of teaching that I
(02:22):
never thought that I would fallinto, right?
I thought I would just coach.
However, coaching and teachinghave similar skills, you know,
your similar passion in terms ofhelping young people.
And that's what I saw myselfdoing for the rest of my life.
And so I kind of fell into itand, you know, fell in love with
it.
Principal JL (02:41):
Well, that's awesome, Donovan Yeah, it sounds
like we kind of have somesimilar paths there when it
comes to getting into educationand finding coaching our way
into our teaching careers.
And so was there anythingwithin your teaching experiences
that helped you prepare you forthe administration?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (03:02):
The main thing I think that that helped
me during teaching was theperspective of keeping students
first.
I think that everything we doas educators should be to keep
students first.
And that really became apparentwhen I stepped into school
leadership, right?
Because I think sometimes wecan get caught up in appeasing
the preferences of adults asopposed to taking care of the
(03:25):
needs of children.
And so as an educator, as ateacher, when I first started
out, my principal used to preachthat all the time.
We have to keep kids first.
And so now as a school leader,that's one of the things that I
pride myself on and justconstantly checking in with
teachers, making sure that theyhave everything that they need
(03:46):
so that they can be greateducators, great teachers for
our kids.
So I think that's probably thenumber one thing is keeping the
kids first.
Principal JL (03:55):
I really love that.
You know, I think, you know,when you have a student-centered
educational practice, you'rereally focused on making sure
those kids are taken care of.
And you said something therethat's something that you need
to do to help keep kids centeredand focused is helping your
teachers be supported and makingsure you're helping them out
(04:16):
and getting them to where theyneed to get to so they can help
those students become thelearners and the the thriving
adults that we want them to beuh when they're school.
So with that, kind of we'redoing your teaching here.
You've got some experience now.
What was it that reallyinspired you to take that next
(04:37):
step and become an assistantprincipal?
Was it a tap on a shoulder?
Was it you just decided I'mready to do this?
What was it?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (04:47):
You know, it was really a pivot during
COVID.
So I taught health and physicaleducation for four years, and
then I had this desire to teachat the college level and be a
college professor.
And so I, you know, startedworking on my doctorate.
I finished my doctorate degree,I defended my dissertation, and
(05:09):
then a week later, my almamater, Virginia State
University, they called me backand they said, Hey, we have uh
an assistant principal, anassistant professor position
open.
Would you be open to coming toVirginia to be a professor?
And of course, I jumped at thatopportunity because that's the
reason why I got my doctorate.
(05:30):
And so one year in, and thenCOVID hits.
I'm thriving as a professor,but then COVID hits.
And so, you know, a lot ofinstitutions were facing
financial burden, and so theyhad to make some shifts and
changes.
And so during that time, mywife happened to be, you know,
getting ready to move toCincinnati, Ohio, to finish a
(05:53):
year of fellowship.
And so we both went together.
In the same month that I lostmy job as a professor, I found
another job as a health and PEteacher.
And so I'm teaching at thischarter school in Cincinnati,
and I'm wondering, you know, uhlike I'm wondering why the
culture is very different fromwhat I left as a teacher when I
(06:15):
first started.
You know, the the morale wasdown, student achievement was
low.
And so I'm trying to figure outwhy this is happening.
And I'm noticing that everyschool isn't the same, every
school leader isn't the same.
So I'm thinking about what mypivot is going to be.
And then instead of complainingabout the problem, I figured,
let me try to be the solution,right?
(06:36):
And so I went back, I ended upworking on my principal
certification, finished that.
My wife and I moved back to NewJersey.
I ended up get going back tothe school where I first started
teaching to finish up all of mycertification stuff.
And then from there, you know,I landed my first vice principal
(06:59):
job.
And so that's really how I gotinto it.
It was a pivot, you know.
Unfortunately, COVID caused alot of issues and, you know, a
lot of mourning for people.
I think it was also anopportunity for a lot of people
to pivot, and that's that'sliterally what happened for me.
Principal JL (07:16):
Well, I really love how you took a negative
situation and turned into apositive, right?
Because you could have beenlike down and out, but you, you
know what?
I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonnafigure this out.
I really enjoy what I'm doing.
So that's kind of interestinghow you go from Virginia to
Ohio, then to New Jersey, youknow, kind of all these
different reasons around that.
(07:37):
I really enjoyed understanding,you know, that pivot story
because there's things that getus into this profession, but get
us into these leadership roles.
And so I really uh appreciateyou sharing that with us.
Now, with that, you know, whatare some things you have learned
as a leader, you know, when itcomes to being an assistant
(08:00):
principal?
What is like we talk about mindshift, right?
You went from a classroomsetting in your situation, PE,
you're more of a gym or outsidesetting, depending on what
you're teaching for the day.
So, what was that shift likefor you to go from classroom
teacher into the assistantprincipal?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (08:22):
For me, just thinking about the level of
impact that I could have onstudents and allowing that to be
greater than being in aclassroom, right?
I I think for me, it was as ahealth and physical education
teacher, I was able to see everystudent in the building.
And so that gave me a differentperspective about learning and
(08:43):
how some students might notnecessarily be as open to having
conversation in their mathclass, but then when they come
into the gym, they're excitedand they're invigorated.
And then that's a way to get tothat student and talk to them
about the academic aspect oftheir learning.
And so what I've learned isthat there's so many ways that
that students learn, and thereare ways that we can impact
(09:06):
students, but it for me, Iwanted to do it on a broader
scale.
I always saw myself as aleader, even within sports.
I was a point guard.
And so, you know, that was oneof the leadership roles that I
had throughout my athleticcareer, which translated very
easily, I think, when it came toschool leadership.
Leadership is something I'mextremely passionate about, it's
(09:27):
something that I study.
I'm constantly looking at lifethrough the lens of leadership.
And so it really was a naturalprogression for me, and I don't
regret it at all.
I love it.
Principal JL (09:39):
Awesome.
I really appreciate you sharingthat as well.
And because a lot of peopledon't understand when you go
from the classroom into theprincipalship, you know, there
is a mind shift.
You go from, you know, havingyour own little world here, and
then, oh my goodness, I haveeverything else out here.
I really like the perspectiveof being a PE teacher, being
(10:01):
see, being able to see all thosekids, and you kind of help
build those relationshipsalready and knowing, like, you
know what, I see all thesedifferent types of learners.
I'm not just kind of like stuckin a content area.
I actually see everybodybecause I know like in Nebraska,
everybody has to take PE it'srequired by our face.
(10:21):
So, you know, you're gonna getthem all on top of the road, you
know, eventually.
So I think I really, reallyenjoyed listening to that
perspective as well.
What are some things, you know,in your last four years being
an assistant principal thatyou've learned about leadership?
How have you grown in the lastfour years?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (10:39):
One of the ways I've I've grown is to
understand that as a schoolleader, you have to be a
self-starter.
I think one of the most notnecessarily surprising things as
I transition from teacher toleader, but I'd say a thing that
you have to get used to is youhave to manage your own time,
right?
You don't have a schedule withthese are this is my prep
(11:02):
period, this is the time that Ieat lunch, this is the time
that, you know, I'm able toplan, right?
Like you literally have tocreate your own schedule.
Yes, your principal is going togive you a role and
responsibilities.
However, it's up to you to bean instructional leader, to get
it to classrooms, to givemeaningful feedback, have those
instructional conversations,right?
(11:24):
Be visible.
You have to figure all of thatout.
And so for me, that was one oflike the main lessons that I've
learned.
It's you have to be aself-starter.
You have to manage your owntime.
And you still, regardless ofall of the discipline you might
have to do, the lunch duty, thebus duty, you have to find time
to be an instructional leader.
(11:45):
So during my first year, I, youknow, kind of felt like, man, I
really want to be aninstructional leader, but the
culture of the school wasn'tnecessarily ready for us just
popping into classrooms anddoing walkthroughs.
So that brought a little bit offrustration.
I'm like, I this is the reasonwhy I got into school
leadership.
But I've learned that you canalso pivot in terms of being a
(12:09):
part of a curriculum committee.
And so now we're doing theback-end work of instruction.
I'm still being aninstructional leader, but it
just might look a littledifferent, right?
And so I think you know,instructional leadership is
extremely important, and we needto continue to find ways to
express that.
Principal JL (12:30):
Do you have any tricks or tips you can tell
people about managing your timeand how you kind of get your you
know, your stuff done?
Like for me, I will list thingsout.
I used to list it, but now mylist becomes my Google Calendar.
So if it's important for me, Iput it on my calendar and I
chuck out time throughout theday.
(12:51):
So I dedicate time.
And so something I'm doing thisyear that I haven't done a very
good job of when you're talkingabout the educational or that
constructional leadership piece,yeah, is actually blocking out
periods of the day.
So I block out different.
We have block scheduling.
So I'll take this block, thisday, this block, the next day.
(13:12):
I I move around the blocks andthen I go, that's my dedicated
walkthrough time where I will goand I will visit.
I try to visit about threeclassrooms that every day that I
do this.
Now I don't do it every singleday of the week, but I try to do
it at least three times a weekwhere I block out time and and
do that.
So do you have any tricks ofthe trade that you that helps
(13:34):
you with that?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (13:36):
Yeah, um, like you, I use Google
Calendar.
That's what I lean on.
I lean on Google Calendar, Ischedule everything there,
meetings, walkthroughs,observations, post-observations.
And then I also try to, youknow, I try to get my my
walkthroughs done first thing inthe morning.
So right after I'm letting uhstudents into the building,
(13:59):
right after I am, you know, justwalking through the hallways to
make sure that everybody's safeand in classrooms, that's when
I try to immediately pop into afew classrooms, have some
instructional conversations,engage with students and
teachers so that I'm at least,you know, making sure that it is
a priority because we know thatthere's so many other things
(14:19):
that can happen in the in thesnap of a finger.
And so I try to do it as soonas I can, and then maybe I'll
answer some emails and then I'llgo back out and and continue
that visibility.
Principal JL (14:32):
But you started like popping in the classrooms
where the students like, what'sgoing on here?
You know, like it was it kindof one of those they weren't
used to it because I know forme, uh like that's one of the
first things I did when I wentfrom Southern Valley to Hastings
is they weren't used to theprincipal just popping in
whenever just to say hi, becauseit's almost like, oh my gosh,
what's going on?
Like, nah, very true.
(14:54):
Now I'm like year four, andthey'd be like, ah, it's just
Mr.
Linden, you know.
So it didn't have stories likethat too.
Dr. Donovan Smalls (15:01):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, it's interestingseeing the dynamic between
different teachers and I guess,you know, their experiences
because some of them are great.
Like yesterday, one of oursocial studies teachers, I
popped into his room, said goodmorning to everyone.
And he was like, Oh, sinceyou're here, you know, let let's
let's talk about because he wasdoing a lesson on 9-11.
(15:22):
He was like, Okay, what wasyour experience?
Where were you?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
And so he he brought me rightinto the lesson, whereas others
might be a little more hesitant.
So it's interesting to see thatdynamic.
But yes, it's I always talkabout like this this dynamic of
like when you go through youradmin program, you're taught to
(15:43):
be an instructional leader andto get into classrooms.
But as a teacher, you might notnecessarily want principals,
vice principals in yourclassrooms.
So then how do you navigatethat, right?
That's that's always thequestion that I'm I'm constantly
reflecting on.
And so one of the strategies Itry to use is just even before
walking into the classroom, howcan I build relationships first
(16:06):
so that the teachers can seeexactly who I am?
So they know that I'm nottrying to get them, I'm not out
to try to give them any negativefeedback, but like, how can we
support one another throughoutthis process of raising student
achievement?
Principal JL (16:20):
Yeah, no, I think you uh hit on some really great
things there when you're talkingabout building relationships
with your staff because they gotto know that you care.
And you know, they said atfirst, if you don't have that
relationship, they might begoing, Oh my gosh, what are they
doing here?
Am I in trouble?
You know, a lot of times I haveto go, ah, no, you're not in
trouble.
It's okay.
(16:40):
It took them to build thatrapport, but once they started
realizing I'm there to help, I'mthere to support, then it they
were like, okay, this is gonnabe a common thing, and it's
gonna be there to help and andthings like that.
So I I really appreciate you uhtalking about that point.
And you know, our goal isn't toget teachers, is to say, we got
(17:04):
you.
You know, like we have you, wesupport you.
We're not gonna we're not outto get you, you know.
We got you on this, we want tohelp you become a teacher
because we know the only way ourbuilding is gonna be successful
is if they're successful, andthe way we can do that support
them.
So I really appreciate thatinsight that you have there, and
(17:26):
I really loved how the teacherbrought you into the lesson.
That's great.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (17:29):
Oh, yeah, pull me right in.
Principal JL (17:31):
I had actually last week my English teacher
came to me and said, Hey, Mr.
Lyndon, I'm doing the uh 1984book in English, and so she
because we have an intercomsystem where I can speak like
directly into a room, and so wehave to kind of like you know,
it's it's a nice system for aninterview.
That's cool.
So I had this little thing Iwould say that was related to
(18:01):
the book about 1984, like twoplus two is five, and people
gotta accept this fact.
And so I like I'm the leaderand I'm like the president or
something.
I'm like telling them that andso they had a really good, I did
that for three periods.
I had to talk at the time, andI would press in, I would say
what I needed to say, and thenthe teacher would use that into
(18:23):
the lesson.
I always check in, hey, how didit go?
And oh, this is great, becauseat first the kids uh, oh my
gosh, is he broadcasting to thewhole school?
And then they realized that itwas part of their lesson.
So sometimes we get pulled in,I kind of liked it, it sounds
really cool that you got pulledin.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (18:41):
That's that sector of frog last year in
our science class.
So yeah, I I, you know, Ireally like I said, I I think
the teachers actually enjoy whenwe're in the classroom as long
as they know that they aresupported and you're not trying
to get them.
I feel like that's that's kindof the vibe that that I get when
you start to develop thatrapport.
(19:02):
They're like, oh, come inanytime, you know, yeah, and
they like that visibility, theylike that support, you know.
Principal JL (19:08):
And I feel yeah, I and I've experienced the same
thing as well.
I think the students likehaving you in class too, because
that you'll get a build, orthey get to see you in a little
bit different light than being,you know, the disciplinarian,
like you, you know, have to besomething.
So Arch Jonathan, talk aboutyour best-selling book beyond
the classroom.
(19:28):
What motivated you to write thebook and what message do you
want readers to take away?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (19:34):
So the motivation behind the book was
really trying to serve as amentor to aspiring leaders.
You know, what I've learnedthroughout my journey and
through my observation is that Ifeel like we put a lot of
emphasis on instructionalleadership, which I think is
great.
However, I think it's reallyimportant to be a leader in and
(19:57):
of itself.
When we talk about leadership,I mean the interpersonal skills,
right?
Being able to relate to others,but also the organizational
skills.
I think being able to leadpeople and the organization
gives you the solid foundationto be an instructional leader.
And so in my book, I focus alot on practical strategies that
(20:19):
help aspiring leaders build thecapacity of teachers through
relationship building and alsoorganizational leadership.
I've learned that some of thebest leaders that I look up to
actually are leaders who leadpeople well, right?
And they lead the organizationwell.
And so that's kind of the mainpremise of the book.
(20:40):
And what I want readers to getfrom it is understanding that
you cannot get instructionalleadership right if you don't
lead people and the organizationwell.
And so that's that's really theheart of the book, helping
people understand that peopleare the center of what we do.
We lead people first and welead instruction second.
Principal JL (21:04):
You bet.
I mean, that's a great messagebecause I do agree with that.
Where if you can't lead thepeople, they're not gonna follow
you, they're not gonna be ableto make the vision or the
mission that you may have comealive.
And so being able to be a greatleader, like you said, building
relationships, havinginterpersonal skills, and I
(21:24):
would say even having emotionalintelligence on how to handle
situations because I knowsomething I'm trying to do is
trying to help my teachers havebuild some capacity by
communicating with each otherand being able to have those
tough conversations with eachother when you're disagreeing.
How do you have discourse withsomebody that you may not agree
(21:46):
with?
That's important because we'reall adults in this situation,
and I've been in IEPs where aparent didn't like the decision
that the IEP team had made.
And I tell the parent, it'sokay to disagree, it's fine.
But trying to do thiscollectively and as a group,
this is the decision that wasmade.
And so it's one of those, youknow, trying I that's one thing
(22:08):
I'm trying to do is build myteacher capacity.
How do you have theseconversations?
And I'll guide them throughthose, you know, ways and
approaches and how to frame aconversation so they can be
productive, but not just be ajerk about it, but actually try
to come to a resolution.
And those are skills peopleneed to learn.
It's hard, it's hard sometimeswhen you're adults.
(22:31):
In my case, sometimes I callthem adult children because the
way the way things are.
It's just like, dude, you gottado it this way because if you
do it this way, it's not gonnawork for you.
And so you try to help.
That's something I do, and Ireally enjoy, you know, just
learning about you know whatyou're trying to do with the
(22:52):
book and trying to help peopleto build more capital.
Do you have any stories abouthow the things that you've used
in a book, you know, in reallife, stories for examples that
you could tell us about strategyor something that you can bring
to life for us to give us anunderstanding?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (23:09):
Well, I think speaking of that emotional
intelligence aspect, right?
I think when you become thatschool leader, you have to make
sure that you are keeping youremotions in check because you
are going to get conflict,right?
You're going to have to havetough conversations with people.
(23:30):
And, you know, you might have,like I remember having a parent
and a student both cursing meout in my office.
And as a leader, you have toknow how to navigate those
situations without you alsoraising to their level, right?
I think it's important to knowthat yes, they might be upset,
(23:51):
they might even curse you out.
Like in my case, however,you're doing what's best for
children.
And sometimes people don't likethat in terms of you doing it
for all children and notnecessarily trying to cherry
pick for one child, right?
We want to make sure that allstudents are getting what they
(24:12):
need.
And so sometimes that might notalign with the vision of a
parent.
And so that emotionalintelligence piece, as you spoke
about, is so important to beable to navigate those
situations with grace.
You might have to call insecurity or ask someone to
leave.
You might have to, you know,tell someone politely, you know,
(24:33):
after like we can have aconversation, but you cannot
curse at me, right?
And then you might have to callthem back or allow them to call
you back later, right?
But you cannot match thatparticular energy that is coming
toward you.
You have to be poised, you haveto be calm, you have to be cool
and collected during thosesituations.
And so that's where thatemotional tele emotional
(24:55):
intelligence piece comes in.
And it's going to happen.
You're going to face thatconfrontation, and so you just
have to be ready for it.
Yeah.
Principal JL (25:03):
I and I tell you what, you learn a lot about
yourself when you have thosesituations, right?
Yeah.
No one likes to be yelled atand be called names, you know,
like like we've talked about inthe past.
You know, I've been calledevery name in the book, but I
also was in the military, soI've heard a lot of people call
I've been I've heard a lot oflanguage, so it's like you're
(25:24):
really not gonna affect me justbecause I heard it.
It's like not a big deal, butat the same time, I think you
gotta have, like you said, thatpoise that you know, just in a
bunch of time, just that thatunderstanding, like I know
you're upset, but we're here tohelp.
We're helping hold everybody toa standard to where we're all
(25:46):
being successful and we'rehaving these certain
expectations, just like today,right?
We had an incident in thebathroom.
There's this TikTok thing goingon where kids will you know,
deprecate or urinate in thebathroom and take a video and
post it.
We had that happen.
Guess what I got to do?
I sent out an email to all myparents and all my students and
(26:08):
staff saying, Hey, this is atrend that's happening, we're
not going to accept this in ourschool.
This is the expectation, theseare what the standard is for us
because we want to make sure wehave a safe and welcoming
environment for everybody.
So just know that.
And so that was one of thosethings you're not prepared to
do, but right do something else.
(26:31):
I have to do this, so it'slike, ah man, you you don't you
don't know what you're gettinginto some days.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (26:39):
That's so it's got that's the thing about
leadership, too.
It's like no two days are thesame, and so you have to be able
to think on your feet.
You have to, you're a decisionmaker at this point, and so you
have to figure out a solution tothese problems and to these
issues that you have noexperience with.
And so as you continue tolearn, as you continue to grow,
(27:01):
I think it gives you theopportunity to like learn, okay,
this person handles this, thisperson handles this, I can
delegate here.
I need to make sure that I amover-communicating with parents,
right?
Like those are the things thatI think are extremely important.
And so you only learn that onceyou get into the role and as
you continue to grow.
Yeah, they don't teach you thatstuff in admin school, do they?
(27:24):
No, they don't.
They do not.
Principal JL (27:28):
I know, but I appreciate that you have a
resource out there for peoplethat are looking to become
administrators, and I woulddefinitely, you know, suggest
people to go out and get hisbook and check it out.
And I'll actually put it in theshow notes so people can easily
find it and so they can get toget a hold of your book so they
can take a read for it.
(27:48):
So, Donovan, you're not just ayou know an author, but you're
also a podcaster, right?
What inspired you to start theinspiring school leader podcast?
What's the purpose of it?
What's the premise?
What's the reasoning for it?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (28:04):
So, on the Aspiring School Leader
Podcast, I help aspiring schoolleaders confidently land their
first leadership role and leadwith impact from day one.
And what I've noticed was thatthere are some aspiring leaders
who might need interview prepand they might need leadership
(28:24):
development, right?
I think one of the gaps that mypodcast fills is specifically
interview prep because once youfinish your admin program,
you're trying to land that firstleadership role, but you might
need a little bit of coachingand development as it relates to
how to answer these questions.
Because we know that theteacher interview is very
(28:47):
different from the leadershipinterview.
And you have to be able tonavigate that tactfully and
strategically and pull out yourleadership story.
And there's so many things thatI think are extremely
important.
And so when people reach out tome for coaching, they they have
watched the podcast and theyunderstand, like, oh, I actually
do need a little bit ofinterview coaching.
(29:09):
And so, you know, weekly Irelease episodes and just really
getting to the heart of thatleadership interview, but also
providing some leadershipdevelopment for aspiring
leaders.
Awesome, awesome.
Principal JL (29:23):
I really appreciate you doing that work
because there is a gap there.
I know a few other people thatkind of do some of the same type
of coaching as well, and but Ireally appreciate you doing that
because I didn't have that, Ijust figured it out on my own.
And I think when you thoseresources, I'll tell you, you
know what?
There's probably more resourcesfor people that want to get
(29:44):
into leadership now than therewas just even three years ago.
And so I really appreciate youknow the work that you have done
and you are doing for people.
But you know, that's a lot ofwork, right?
It is.
Principal, you're a podcaster,you coach on the side.
(30:05):
How do you balance that?
How do you balance all thesedifferent things?
Like for me, you know, being abuilding principal, which I
love, and then podcasting ismore than enough to keep me
busy.
When it comes to extra things,so how do you balance all that?
What is your secret when youwhen you have all these
different things that I'm gonnahelp people?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (30:28):
It's a day-by-day thing.
And I uh you know, when itcomes to writing, I I think the
trend uh for me, at least withwriting, is whenever I get to
the next level of my career, Itry to write something that'll
help other people get to where Iam.
And so, you know, writing kindof ebbs and flows, but in terms
(30:50):
of the podcast, I try to recordweekly and stay ahead of things.
What I've learned withpodcasting, at least for me, I
typically do like an individualpodcast for about maybe 15 to 20
minutes.
I try to do very limitedediting.
Um, I try to keep it asauthentic as I can.
But it it's it's a challenge,I'd say.
It's a challenge in terms ofbalancing everything.
(31:11):
But I think it's definitelyworth it.
It's something that I'mpassionate about.
It's something that I trulyenjoy.
And I feel like it's it'sbeneficial to other people,
especially based on the feedbackthat I get.
And, you know, the balancingpart is is something that I'm
always trying to figure outbetter ways that I can do that.
But, you know, I I reallyutilize the days off from
(31:34):
school.
I might try to batch record ordo things like that just to make
sure that I have a reserve justin case something happens.
So yeah, the balancing, I Idon't know.
I don't know.
I'm like you, it's more thanenough.
Principal JL (31:48):
Right enough, yeah.
Well, you also have your wifeand your kids and you know, all
that stuff to balance.
I'm a little lucky becauseabout four or five, four of the
five kids I have are out of thehouse.
I have just one left, so it'snot so bad, but I try to I try
to like record once a week whenI have a guest.
You know, if I don't have aguest in the queue, I will
(32:12):
probably record my own likeepisode of something that's
going on that I feel like it'simportant for people to know
about.
So I will do some singlerecordings, but also I'd like
the guest recordings.
You know, with that, I try todo that balance, but I really
enjoy the guests because guesswhat I get to do?
I'm doing some professionaldevelopment.
Uh I learned from you.
(32:35):
Hey, what are some things thatyou've learned?
And I like to hear people'sstories, and that's also the
reason when we hear each other'sstories, we can say, you know
what?
It's not so different in NewJersey as it is in Nebraska or
Florida.
You know, we're all in thistogether, and I think people
need to realize that that, youknow, no matter where you're at
(32:56):
in education, we have similarstruggles, period, no matter
where you're at or what you'redoing, but we're all trying to
figure it out together.
And if we can lean on eachother and support each other,
we're gonna be more successful.
And I think that's where I seethe podcasting going.
Yes, resource for people andhelping each other through these
(33:19):
things because they can listento your podcast, my podcast,
Josh Navarro's podcast, youknow, Principal Faley's podcast,
Darren Pepper's podcast.
I'm just saying it's Houston'spodcast.
I mean, you know, there's a lotof people out there that are
there to support you.
You just gotta plug in and andand let them speak to you so you
(33:43):
can get better.
And I've always taken andlearned things from other people
that helps me become better.
And so I really like theprofessional development.
Do you have some similarexperiences as a podcaster?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (33:57):
Oh, so one of the things, at least for
me, I I do enjoy this part ofthe podcasting in terms of us
collaborating and and havingthis conversation because it
allows me to get a differentperspective based on like I feel
like you we can get caught upin where we are, and this is the
(34:18):
way things are, and we don'tnecessarily look at it like, oh,
there's so many other greatpeople doing great things, but
we don't, we're not exposed toit, right?
So I would never be exposed tothe the great things that you're
doing in Nebraska if we didn'tconnect virtually, right?
Or going to conferences andconnecting with so many people
and seeing, like, oh, for astaff meeting, you might, you
(34:42):
know, make it a make it a littlebit more engaging by doing
this.
Or, you know, I met a principalfrom Kansas City who, for his
staff retreat back to school,he's taking them on a helicopter
ride.
I'm like, that that's amazing,right?
Like, I'm like, they must havesome money there.
But I'm like, just thesethings, right?
(35:03):
Or just like, you know, anotherprincipal I met, he lives in
Seattle.
He's from Seattle, but he's aprincipal in Alaska.
So I was asking him, like, howdoes that dynamic work?
And so I think just havingconversations through
podcasting, through going toconferences, where you're
hearing the perspective of otherpeople, it's inspiring.
(35:24):
It's it's truly inspiring.
Principal JL (35:27):
Yeah.
I also learned by doing that,you find out, you know what, the
things you're doing lines upwith what other great people
that are in this business doingas well.
And so it builds confidence.
You're doing the right things,you're doing the things that
other great leaders do.
And so I think that's anotherpiece that I've learned too when
you connect with people fromacross the nation.
(35:48):
Um, and not just in your ownstate.
It's important to connect tothe people around you in your
state, but they also connectalso nationwide to get those
perspectives.
Because, like I said, we're allin this together and we all
have stories and we all comefrom different places.
But guess what?
We all have the same struggles,we all have the same things
(36:08):
we're working.
We do it together, we'll bebetter forever.
So I just think so.
Let let's talk about peoplethat want to get into becoming a
principal.
What advice would you tellsomebody wants to become an
assistant principal or principalone day out there listening to
(36:30):
this podcast right now?
What would you tell them?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (36:33):
I would tell them if it's something that
they're truly passionate about,try to find a mentor.
I think mentorship is extremelyimportant because it gives you
an opportunity to bounce ideasoff of others.
People can give you someinsight into what this position
that you're walking into istruly like.
I'm a firm believer that youdon't really understand what the
(36:59):
principal or vice principalrole is until you actually sit
in that seat.
I think it's easy to talk aboutwhat you would do and you can
critique and criticize and allof these things, but until you
sit in the seat, you won'tactually know how it feels.
So, you know, if that'ssomething that that an aspiring
leader truly wants to do, find amentor and then strategically
(37:22):
figure out where you want to bein terms of do you think that
you'll be great leading in anelementary school or a middle
school or a high school becausethere are different dynamics
among the three.
And so just figuring out yoursweet spot, I think that's
that's extremely importantbecause it'll narrow down your
options and target where yourimpact is going to land.
Principal JL (37:46):
That's great advice.
I really like how you talkedabout there is a difference
between elementary, middleschool, and high school.
I was a 7-12 principal, so Ispent a lot of time with my
seventh and eighth gradersgetting them ready for high
school at one point.
I'm in my sweet spot because Ilove high school.
I'm at the 9-12 level.
(38:06):
How do I bring my eighth gradersfrom coming from eighth grade
into freshman year?
One of the things we did thisyear was we did a freshman-only
day to where we transition thekids, give them a full day by
themselves in the buildingbecause they're used to teams at
the middle school where all theeighth graders are down this
wing, all the seventh gradersare down this wing, all the
(38:27):
sixth graders down this way.
So they never really mixedexcept amongst each other.
Well, you get thrown into thehigh school.
We call it the welcome to thejungle because you know we're
basically and we're, you know,you come up to high school, it
feels like a jungle because wegot kids, we have a thousand
kids, nine twelve, and freshmenare thrown into that, and it's
almost like feed them to thewolves and see what happens.
(38:50):
We ended up having thisfreshman-only day.
The staff did an amazing jobwith it, but it was just for
those freshmen where they canunderstand the way we operate,
the expectations, and how tofind your classroom.
You know, how to navigate thebuilding.
I'd give them some ice cream, Ifed them some pizza, and it was
(39:13):
a great experience.
We did at scavenger hunts.
We did all these fun activitiesas well as pictures and all
this fun stuff, to the pointwhere the upperclassmen were
jealous because they wouldn'twant to do it.
But it really did help.
And it was you know, thefreshmen's it's like we brought
(39:34):
them the next day back witheverybody, and they just
integrated right in.
Where before that first daywith them was chaotic, and it
was just so much, and we we sawthe difference like immediately.
So that's kind of one of thosethings that you know you learn
as you go, and you have to findthat sweet spot.
(39:54):
Like you said, elementary isdifferent.
I would not go elementary,yeah.
No, not doing it.
Are you like, no, not doing it?
I have a seven year oldteacher.
I could deal with my kid atthat age, but I don't know if I
can deal with other people'skids.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (40:10):
Right.
Principal JL (40:11):
Uh but yeah, no, I think just go in your
wheelhouse, that's important,and then go for that as well.
Hey Jonathan, what is one thingyou wish you knew as an
educational leader that youdidn't know before getting into
the role?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (40:31):
As an educator, I think I think the
thing that I'm finding out andI'm learning is that because
everyone has been through theschool system, they sometimes
can feel like they can tell youhow to do your job better than
(40:52):
you.
I think that's one of thethings that I'm realizing.
It's like, okay, uh educationis probably one of the few
industries where everybody hasgone through it.
And so now they have anopportunity people have an
opportunity to then say, Well,you should do this.
I don't like how you did this.
Like, and so you have to beable to take it with a grain of
(41:15):
salt, obviously, listen, siftthrough what type of
improvements that you can makebased on the feedback.
I think that's important.
However, you have to alsorecognize that everything that's
being said, you cannot takepersonally.
And so I think during my firstyear, extremely passionate, on
fire for leadership, which Istill am, but a little bit naive
(41:38):
in understanding that everybodyis not going to be on your
side.
People are just going to opposeyou because you're in a
leadership seat.
That's that's what comes withit.
And so you have to, again, nottake any of it personally, don't
take it home with you, don'ttake the stress with you.
Learn how to shut things downwhen it needs to be shut down,
and then come back fresh thenext day and and and give it
(42:02):
your all.
But I think that's that'sprobably what what I'm learning
four years in.
It's like, oh, okay, I see thatbecause everyone has been
through it, the educationalsystem, and because we have to
be open to the feedback, right?
We receive the emails, thephone calls.
People think that they know howto run a school because of
(42:22):
that.
And so, you know, just take itwith a grain of salt, listen to
what you can improve upon andand keep moving.
Principal JL (42:30):
Yeah, I really love that.
That's so true.
Just because everybody's gonethrough school at one point in
their life, and because theywent through school, they'll be
like, Well, when I was inschool, we did it this way, and
that way, you know, so it's likeone of those things like oh, I
mean, okay, I hear you out, butat the same time, there might be
(42:52):
a good idea there once in awhile, you don't know, but at
the same time, yeah, like theygo, Well, you know, I've been
through this, you know, I am aprofessional at this, and that's
what other people forget aboutis like I don't go to the
doctor's office and tell thedoctor how to do his job, right?
You know, you're not sendinghim an email.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, Iwould, you know, we're we are
(43:15):
professionals as well, and I youknow, sometimes people lose
sight of that because of that,you know.
Hey, we all been in the schooland they think they know how it
runs, but they really don'tbecause they really haven't been
in a school or worked in aschool, but everybody has these
grand uh grandiose ideas on howit should run based off of
(43:36):
personal experiences.
And like you said, you're Ijust listen.
There might be a good ideathere, and you know, just um
thank you for your feedback.
I'll keep it in mind, and youknow, see you later.
You know, Jonathan, you know,been in a leadership role for a
while.
What gets you excited tocontinue the work that you're
(43:58):
doing?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (44:00):
I think it's the kids, you know, it's
the kids.
I think it's having kids of myown and seeing them grow and
wanting to operate with a levelof excellence for them, you
know, and for all kids.
I think that's that's reallywhat it's about for me.
That's why I got intoeducation, just really focusing
(44:20):
on the students and helping thembe the best that they can be,
really figuring out how to tapinto their greatness, but allow
them to see it.
I think sometimes we can'talways see what we're great at,
the skills, the abilities, thetalents that we have.
We don't always recognize thembecause we have them.
And we're like, uh, we'll brushit to the side because it just
(44:42):
comes so naturally and easily tome.
But that might be the thingthat can cause somebody to, you
know, tap into their greatnessand their light can shine.
And so for me, it's just aboutreally figuring out how we can
pull those skills out of thekids to help them eventually
change the world.
(45:02):
So it's about the the children.
Principal JL (45:05):
I love it.
I love it.
I think we all get into thisbusiness because we want to
impact young life, right?
Yeah you know, we all just havedifferent roles and we have
kind of like the place on theteam.
This is my role, and if we alldo our part, we're gonna be
successful.
But the overall goal is to helpthose kids reach their fullest
potential, and a part of ourrole with that is to help our
(45:28):
teachers reach their fullestpotential so the students can do
it.
And that's kind of like the funpart, right?
How do I pull these levers toget the results that we're we're
wanting for everybody?
And that doesn't matter.
That's prostination.
Wherever you're at as aprincipal or as an educator,
that's what your goals are,regardless of the background you
(45:49):
come from, what city you livein.
That's the ultimate goal is tohave people have a great
experience and help them streaktheir potential so they can be
contributing adults to society.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
I really appreciate you knowthat and that that feedback as
well.
Now, Donathan, we've been herefor a while.
(46:10):
We've talked a lot of greatthings.
You know, if people wanted toconnect with you, and you know,
maybe they will need a coach andsomebody that needs to help
them get that firstprincipalship job, or hey, maybe
they want to read your book, orhey, maybe they want to follow
you on social media.
How can people connect withyou?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (46:29):
So, my book, Beyond the Classroom, is
on Amazon.
You can find it there.
You can also connect with me onall social media platforms at
Donovan SmallsNumber Two.
And then they can also visit mywebsite, Donovan Smalls the
Number Two.com.
And my my podcast is theAspiring School Leader Podcast.
(46:51):
It's on YouTube, Spotify, andalso Apple Podcasts.
Principal JL (46:55):
Awesome.
And everybody, I'll put thatinformation in the show notes.
So all you have to do is godown there and click on it, and
boom, there you go.
All right, Donovan.
This has been a greatconversation.
I really appreciate you beingon the show.
Do you have any last wordsbefore we go?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (47:12):
Um, I'd just like to thank you for the
work that you're doing.
I really appreciate you knowyou highlighting other
educational leaders and justgiving us an opportunity to
share and have conversation andlearn.
I've learned so much from youbased on the things that you've
shared, and I'm inspired and I'mready to go.
So thank you.
(47:33):
What a conversation with Dr.
Principal JL (47:36):
Donovan Smalls II.
I hope you loved learning abouthis journey from the classroom
to educational leadership.
It just shows that becoming aneducational leader is not
linear, and there are many pathsthat educational leaders have
in their journey.
If this episode resonates withyou, please share it with
someone who needs to hear it.
Please subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss
(47:59):
another impactful episode whenit drops.
Until next time, be curious and1% better.
Today I'm very excited to have on the show Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Donovan has 13 years ofexperience in education and four
years as an assistantprincipal.
Donovan is a dynamiceducational leader, bestselling
author of Beyond the Classroom,and host of the Aspiring School
(00:25):
Leader Podcast.
He currently serves as anassistant principal, school
leadership coach, and anexecutive board member of the
New Jersey affiliate of theNational Alliance of Black
School Educators.
His mission to empower aspiringschool leaders to confidently
step into the leadership rolesand lead with impact from day
(00:48):
one.
Now let's get to ourconversation with Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother exciting episode of the
(01:08):
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I am so excited to haveon the show Dr.
Donovan Smalls II.
Donovan, welcome to the show.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (01:21):
Thanks for having me, Jeff.
I'm excited.
Principal JL (01:24):
All right, Donovan.
I'm going to go ahead and askyou the same question that I
asked everybody on this show.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (01:36):
So I really didn't see myself
becoming an educator when I wasyoung.
I don't have that story of aninspirational teacher that I
looked up to and wanted to walkin their footsteps.
I think education really foundme.
I was one that loved sportsgrowing up.
I continue to love sports,played it, and that was really
(01:57):
my path.
I thought I was going to be acollege basketball coach, which
I did coach at Virginia StateUniversity for the women's
basketball team for two years,really enjoyed that experience.
Division II school, we were top10 in the country.
But I did undergrad, I majoredin health and exercise science,
health and exercise scienceteaching.
And so that kind of just put meon a path of teaching that I
(02:22):
never thought that I would fallinto, right?
I thought I would just coach.
However, coaching and teachinghave similar skills, you know,
your similar passion in terms ofhelping young people.
And that's what I saw myselfdoing for the rest of my life.
And so I kind of fell into itand, you know, fell in love with
it.
Principal JL (02:41):
Well, that's awesome, Donovan Yeah, it sounds
like we kind of have somesimilar paths there when it
comes to getting into educationand finding coaching our way
into our teaching careers.
And so was there anythingwithin your teaching experiences
that helped you prepare you forthe administration?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (03:02):
The main thing I think that that helped
me during teaching was theperspective of keeping students
first.
I think that everything we doas educators should be to keep
students first.
And that really became apparentwhen I stepped into school
leadership, right?
Because I think sometimes wecan get caught up in appeasing
the preferences of adults asopposed to taking care of the
(03:25):
needs of children.
And so as an educator, as ateacher, when I first started
out, my principal used to preachthat all the time.
We have to keep kids first.
And so now as a school leader,that's one of the things that I
pride myself on and justconstantly checking in with
teachers, making sure that theyhave everything that they need
(03:46):
so that they can be greateducators, great teachers for
our kids.
So I think that's probably thenumber one thing is keeping the
kids first.
Principal JL (03:55):
I really love that.
You know, I think, you know,when you have a student-centered
educational practice, you'rereally focused on making sure
those kids are taken care of.
And you said something therethat's something that you need
to do to help keep kids centeredand focused is helping your
teachers be supported and makingsure you're helping them out
(04:16):
and getting them to where theyneed to get to so they can help
those students become thelearners and the the thriving
adults that we want them to beuh when they're school.
So with that, kind of we'redoing your teaching here.
You've got some experience now.
What was it that reallyinspired you to take that next
(04:37):
step and become an assistantprincipal?
Was it a tap on a shoulder?
Was it you just decided I'mready to do this?
What was it?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (04:47):
You know, it was really a pivot during
COVID.
So I taught health and physicaleducation for four years, and
then I had this desire to teachat the college level and be a
college professor.
And so I, you know, startedworking on my doctorate.
I finished my doctorate degree,I defended my dissertation, and
(05:09):
then a week later, my almamater, Virginia State
University, they called me backand they said, Hey, we have uh
an assistant principal, anassistant professor position
open.
Would you be open to coming toVirginia to be a professor?
And of course, I jumped at thatopportunity because that's the
reason why I got my doctorate.
(05:30):
And so one year in, and thenCOVID hits.
I'm thriving as a professor,but then COVID hits.
And so, you know, a lot ofinstitutions were facing
financial burden, and so theyhad to make some shifts and
changes.
And so during that time, mywife happened to be, you know,
getting ready to move toCincinnati, Ohio, to finish a
(05:53):
year of fellowship.
And so we both went together.
In the same month that I lostmy job as a professor, I found
another job as a health and PEteacher.
And so I'm teaching at thischarter school in Cincinnati,
and I'm wondering, you know, uhlike I'm wondering why the
culture is very different fromwhat I left as a teacher when I
(06:15):
first started.
You know, the the morale wasdown, student achievement was
low.
And so I'm trying to figure outwhy this is happening.
And I'm noticing that everyschool isn't the same, every
school leader isn't the same.
So I'm thinking about what mypivot is going to be.
And then instead of complainingabout the problem, I figured,
let me try to be the solution,right?
(06:36):
And so I went back, I ended upworking on my principal
certification, finished that.
My wife and I moved back to NewJersey.
I ended up get going back tothe school where I first started
teaching to finish up all of mycertification stuff.
And then from there, you know,I landed my first vice principal
(06:59):
job.
And so that's really how I gotinto it.
It was a pivot, you know.
Unfortunately, COVID caused alot of issues and, you know, a
lot of mourning for people.
I think it was also anopportunity for a lot of people
to pivot, and that's that'sliterally what happened for me.
Principal JL (07:16):
Well, I really love how you took a negative
situation and turned into apositive, right?
Because you could have beenlike down and out, but you, you
know what?
I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonnafigure this out.
I really enjoy what I'm doing.
So that's kind of interestinghow you go from Virginia to
Ohio, then to New Jersey, youknow, kind of all these
different reasons around that.
(07:37):
I really enjoyed understanding,you know, that pivot story
because there's things that getus into this profession, but get
us into these leadership roles.
And so I really uh appreciateyou sharing that with us.
Now, with that, you know, whatare some things you have learned
as a leader, you know, when itcomes to being an assistant
(08:00):
principal?
What is like we talk about mindshift, right?
You went from a classroomsetting in your situation, PE,
you're more of a gym or outsidesetting, depending on what
you're teaching for the day.
So, what was that shift likefor you to go from classroom
teacher into the assistantprincipal?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (08:22):
For me, just thinking about the level of
impact that I could have onstudents and allowing that to be
greater than being in aclassroom, right?
I I think for me, it was as ahealth and physical education
teacher, I was able to see everystudent in the building.
And so that gave me a differentperspective about learning and
(08:43):
how some students might notnecessarily be as open to having
conversation in their mathclass, but then when they come
into the gym, they're excitedand they're invigorated.
And then that's a way to get tothat student and talk to them
about the academic aspect oftheir learning.
And so what I've learned isthat there's so many ways that
that students learn, and thereare ways that we can impact
(09:06):
students, but it for me, Iwanted to do it on a broader
scale.
I always saw myself as aleader, even within sports.
I was a point guard.
And so, you know, that was oneof the leadership roles that I
had throughout my athleticcareer, which translated very
easily, I think, when it came toschool leadership.
Leadership is something I'mextremely passionate about, it's
(09:27):
something that I study.
I'm constantly looking at lifethrough the lens of leadership.
And so it really was a naturalprogression for me, and I don't
regret it at all.
I love it.
Principal JL (09:39):
Awesome.
I really appreciate you sharingthat as well.
And because a lot of peopledon't understand when you go
from the classroom into theprincipalship, you know, there
is a mind shift.
You go from, you know, havingyour own little world here, and
then, oh my goodness, I haveeverything else out here.
I really like the perspectiveof being a PE teacher, being
(10:01):
see, being able to see all thosekids, and you kind of help
build those relationshipsalready and knowing, like, you
know what, I see all thesedifferent types of learners.
I'm not just kind of like stuckin a content area.
I actually see everybodybecause I know like in Nebraska,
everybody has to take PE it'srequired by our face.
(10:21):
So, you know, you're gonna getthem all on top of the road, you
know, eventually.
So I think I really, reallyenjoyed listening to that
perspective as well.
What are some things, you know,in your last four years being
an assistant principal thatyou've learned about leadership?
How have you grown in the lastfour years?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (10:39):
One of the ways I've I've grown is to
understand that as a schoolleader, you have to be a
self-starter.
I think one of the most notnecessarily surprising things as
I transition from teacher toleader, but I'd say a thing that
you have to get used to is youhave to manage your own time,
right?
You don't have a schedule withthese are this is my prep
(11:02):
period, this is the time that Ieat lunch, this is the time
that, you know, I'm able toplan, right?
Like you literally have tocreate your own schedule.
Yes, your principal is going togive you a role and
responsibilities.
However, it's up to you to bean instructional leader, to get
it to classrooms, to givemeaningful feedback, have those
instructional conversations,right?
(11:24):
Be visible.
You have to figure all of thatout.
And so for me, that was one oflike the main lessons that I've
learned.
It's you have to be aself-starter.
You have to manage your owntime.
And you still, regardless ofall of the discipline you might
have to do, the lunch duty, thebus duty, you have to find time
to be an instructional leader.
(11:45):
So during my first year, I, youknow, kind of felt like, man, I
really want to be aninstructional leader, but the
culture of the school wasn'tnecessarily ready for us just
popping into classrooms anddoing walkthroughs.
So that brought a little bit offrustration.
I'm like, I this is the reasonwhy I got into school
leadership.
But I've learned that you canalso pivot in terms of being a
(12:09):
part of a curriculum committee.
And so now we're doing theback-end work of instruction.
I'm still being aninstructional leader, but it
just might look a littledifferent, right?
And so I think you know,instructional leadership is
extremely important, and we needto continue to find ways to
express that.
Principal JL (12:30):
Do you have any tricks or tips you can tell
people about managing your timeand how you kind of get your you
know, your stuff done?
Like for me, I will list thingsout.
I used to list it, but now mylist becomes my Google Calendar.
So if it's important for me, Iput it on my calendar and I
chuck out time throughout theday.
(12:51):
So I dedicate time.
And so something I'm doing thisyear that I haven't done a very
good job of when you're talkingabout the educational or that
constructional leadership piece,yeah, is actually blocking out
periods of the day.
So I block out different.
We have block scheduling.
So I'll take this block, thisday, this block, the next day.
(13:12):
I I move around the blocks andthen I go, that's my dedicated
walkthrough time where I will goand I will visit.
I try to visit about threeclassrooms that every day that I
do this.
Now I don't do it every singleday of the week, but I try to do
it at least three times a weekwhere I block out time and and
do that.
So do you have any tricks ofthe trade that you that helps
(13:34):
you with that?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (13:36):
Yeah, um, like you, I use Google
Calendar.
That's what I lean on.
I lean on Google Calendar, Ischedule everything there,
meetings, walkthroughs,observations, post-observations.
And then I also try to, youknow, I try to get my my
walkthroughs done first thing inthe morning.
So right after I'm letting uhstudents into the building,
(13:59):
right after I am, you know, justwalking through the hallways to
make sure that everybody's safeand in classrooms, that's when
I try to immediately pop into afew classrooms, have some
instructional conversations,engage with students and
teachers so that I'm at least,you know, making sure that it is
a priority because we know thatthere's so many other things
(14:19):
that can happen in the in thesnap of a finger.
And so I try to do it as soonas I can, and then maybe I'll
answer some emails and then I'llgo back out and and continue
that visibility.
Principal JL (14:32):
But you started like popping in the classrooms
where the students like, what'sgoing on here?
You know, like it was it kindof one of those they weren't
used to it because I know forme, uh like that's one of the
first things I did when I wentfrom Southern Valley to Hastings
is they weren't used to theprincipal just popping in
whenever just to say hi, becauseit's almost like, oh my gosh,
what's going on?
Like, nah, very true.
(14:54):
Now I'm like year four, andthey'd be like, ah, it's just
Mr.
Linden, you know.
So it didn't have stories likethat too.
Dr. Donovan Smalls (15:01):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, it's interestingseeing the dynamic between
different teachers and I guess,you know, their experiences
because some of them are great.
Like yesterday, one of oursocial studies teachers, I
popped into his room, said goodmorning to everyone.
And he was like, Oh, sinceyou're here, you know, let let's
let's talk about because he wasdoing a lesson on 9-11.
(15:22):
He was like, Okay, what wasyour experience?
Where were you?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
And so he he brought me rightinto the lesson, whereas others
might be a little more hesitant.
So it's interesting to see thatdynamic.
But yes, it's I always talkabout like this this dynamic of
like when you go through youradmin program, you're taught to
(15:43):
be an instructional leader andto get into classrooms.
But as a teacher, you might notnecessarily want principals,
vice principals in yourclassrooms.
So then how do you navigatethat, right?
That's that's always thequestion that I'm I'm constantly
reflecting on.
And so one of the strategies Itry to use is just even before
walking into the classroom, howcan I build relationships first
(16:06):
so that the teachers can seeexactly who I am?
So they know that I'm nottrying to get them, I'm not out
to try to give them any negativefeedback, but like, how can we
support one another throughoutthis process of raising student
achievement?
Principal JL (16:20):
Yeah, no, I think you uh hit on some really great
things there when you're talkingabout building relationships
with your staff because they gotto know that you care.
And you know, they said atfirst, if you don't have that
relationship, they might begoing, Oh my gosh, what are they
doing here?
Am I in trouble?
You know, a lot of times I haveto go, ah, no, you're not in
trouble.
It's okay.
(16:40):
It took them to build thatrapport, but once they started
realizing I'm there to help, I'mthere to support, then it they
were like, okay, this is gonnabe a common thing, and it's
gonna be there to help and andthings like that.
So I I really appreciate you uhtalking about that point.
And you know, our goal isn't toget teachers, is to say, we got
(17:04):
you.
You know, like we have you, wesupport you.
We're not gonna we're not outto get you, you know.
We got you on this, we want tohelp you become a teacher
because we know the only way ourbuilding is gonna be successful
is if they're successful, andthe way we can do that support
them.
So I really appreciate thatinsight that you have there, and
(17:26):
I really loved how the teacherbrought you into the lesson.
That's great.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (17:29):
Oh, yeah, pull me right in.
Principal JL (17:31):
I had actually last week my English teacher
came to me and said, Hey, Mr.
Lyndon, I'm doing the uh 1984book in English, and so she
because we have an intercomsystem where I can speak like
directly into a room, and so wehave to kind of like you know,
it's it's a nice system for aninterview.
That's cool.
So I had this little thing Iwould say that was related to
(18:01):
the book about 1984, like twoplus two is five, and people
gotta accept this fact.
And so I like I'm the leaderand I'm like the president or
something.
I'm like telling them that andso they had a really good, I did
that for three periods.
I had to talk at the time, andI would press in, I would say
what I needed to say, and thenthe teacher would use that into
(18:23):
the lesson.
I always check in, hey, how didit go?
And oh, this is great, becauseat first the kids uh, oh my
gosh, is he broadcasting to thewhole school?
And then they realized that itwas part of their lesson.
So sometimes we get pulled in,I kind of liked it, it sounds
really cool that you got pulledin.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (18:41):
That's that sector of frog last year in
our science class.
So yeah, I I, you know, Ireally like I said, I I think
the teachers actually enjoy whenwe're in the classroom as long
as they know that they aresupported and you're not trying
to get them.
I feel like that's that's kindof the vibe that that I get when
you start to develop thatrapport.
(19:02):
They're like, oh, come inanytime, you know, yeah, and
they like that visibility, theylike that support, you know.
Principal JL (19:08):
And I feel yeah, I and I've experienced the same
thing as well.
I think the students likehaving you in class too, because
that you'll get a build, orthey get to see you in a little
bit different light than being,you know, the disciplinarian,
like you, you know, have to besomething.
So Arch Jonathan, talk aboutyour best-selling book beyond
the classroom.
(19:28):
What motivated you to write thebook and what message do you
want readers to take away?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (19:34):
So the motivation behind the book was
really trying to serve as amentor to aspiring leaders.
You know, what I've learnedthroughout my journey and
through my observation is that Ifeel like we put a lot of
emphasis on instructionalleadership, which I think is
great.
However, I think it's reallyimportant to be a leader in and
(19:57):
of itself.
When we talk about leadership,I mean the interpersonal skills,
right?
Being able to relate to others,but also the organizational
skills.
I think being able to leadpeople and the organization
gives you the solid foundationto be an instructional leader.
And so in my book, I focus alot on practical strategies that
(20:19):
help aspiring leaders build thecapacity of teachers through
relationship building and alsoorganizational leadership.
I've learned that some of thebest leaders that I look up to
actually are leaders who leadpeople well, right?
And they lead the organizationwell.
And so that's kind of the mainpremise of the book.
(20:40):
And what I want readers to getfrom it is understanding that
you cannot get instructionalleadership right if you don't
lead people and the organizationwell.
And so that's that's really theheart of the book, helping
people understand that peopleare the center of what we do.
We lead people first and welead instruction second.
Principal JL (21:04):
You bet.
I mean, that's a great messagebecause I do agree with that.
Where if you can't lead thepeople, they're not gonna follow
you, they're not gonna be ableto make the vision or the
mission that you may have comealive.
And so being able to be a greatleader, like you said, building
relationships, havinginterpersonal skills, and I
(21:24):
would say even having emotionalintelligence on how to handle
situations because I knowsomething I'm trying to do is
trying to help my teachers havebuild some capacity by
communicating with each otherand being able to have those
tough conversations with eachother when you're disagreeing.
How do you have discourse withsomebody that you may not agree
(21:46):
with?
That's important because we'reall adults in this situation,
and I've been in IEPs where aparent didn't like the decision
that the IEP team had made.
And I tell the parent, it'sokay to disagree, it's fine.
But trying to do thiscollectively and as a group,
this is the decision that wasmade.
And so it's one of those, youknow, trying I that's one thing
(22:08):
I'm trying to do is build myteacher capacity.
How do you have theseconversations?
And I'll guide them throughthose, you know, ways and
approaches and how to frame aconversation so they can be
productive, but not just be ajerk about it, but actually try
to come to a resolution.
And those are skills peopleneed to learn.
It's hard, it's hard sometimeswhen you're adults.
(22:31):
In my case, sometimes I callthem adult children because the
way the way things are.
It's just like, dude, you gottado it this way because if you
do it this way, it's not gonnawork for you.
And so you try to help.
That's something I do, and Ireally enjoy, you know, just
learning about you know whatyou're trying to do with the
(22:52):
book and trying to help peopleto build more capital.
Do you have any stories abouthow the things that you've used
in a book, you know, in reallife, stories for examples that
you could tell us about strategyor something that you can bring
to life for us to give us anunderstanding?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (23:09):
Well, I think speaking of that emotional
intelligence aspect, right?
I think when you become thatschool leader, you have to make
sure that you are keeping youremotions in check because you
are going to get conflict,right?
You're going to have to havetough conversations with people.
(23:30):
And, you know, you might have,like I remember having a parent
and a student both cursing meout in my office.
And as a leader, you have toknow how to navigate those
situations without you alsoraising to their level, right?
I think it's important to knowthat yes, they might be upset,
(23:51):
they might even curse you out.
Like in my case, however,you're doing what's best for
children.
And sometimes people don't likethat in terms of you doing it
for all children and notnecessarily trying to cherry
pick for one child, right?
We want to make sure that allstudents are getting what they
(24:12):
need.
And so sometimes that might notalign with the vision of a
parent.
And so that emotionalintelligence piece, as you spoke
about, is so important to beable to navigate those
situations with grace.
You might have to call insecurity or ask someone to
leave.
You might have to, you know,tell someone politely, you know,
(24:33):
after like we can have aconversation, but you cannot
curse at me, right?
And then you might have to callthem back or allow them to call
you back later, right?
But you cannot match thatparticular energy that is coming
toward you.
You have to be poised, you haveto be calm, you have to be cool
and collected during thosesituations.
And so that's where thatemotional tele emotional
(24:55):
intelligence piece comes in.
And it's going to happen.
You're going to face thatconfrontation, and so you just
have to be ready for it.
Yeah.
Principal JL (25:03):
I and I tell you what, you learn a lot about
yourself when you have thosesituations, right?
Yeah.
No one likes to be yelled atand be called names, you know,
like like we've talked about inthe past.
You know, I've been calledevery name in the book, but I
also was in the military, soI've heard a lot of people call
I've been I've heard a lot oflanguage, so it's like you're
(25:24):
really not gonna affect me justbecause I heard it.
It's like not a big deal, butat the same time, I think you
gotta have, like you said, thatpoise that you know, just in a
bunch of time, just that thatunderstanding, like I know
you're upset, but we're here tohelp.
We're helping hold everybody toa standard to where we're all
(25:46):
being successful and we'rehaving these certain
expectations, just like today,right?
We had an incident in thebathroom.
There's this TikTok thing goingon where kids will you know,
deprecate or urinate in thebathroom and take a video and
post it.
We had that happen.
Guess what I got to do?
I sent out an email to all myparents and all my students and
(26:08):
staff saying, Hey, this is atrend that's happening, we're
not going to accept this in ourschool.
This is the expectation, theseare what the standard is for us
because we want to make sure wehave a safe and welcoming
environment for everybody.
So just know that.
And so that was one of thosethings you're not prepared to
do, but right do something else.
(26:31):
I have to do this, so it'slike, ah man, you you don't you
don't know what you're gettinginto some days.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (26:39):
That's so it's got that's the thing about
leadership, too.
It's like no two days are thesame, and so you have to be able
to think on your feet.
You have to, you're a decisionmaker at this point, and so you
have to figure out a solution tothese problems and to these
issues that you have noexperience with.
And so as you continue tolearn, as you continue to grow,
(27:01):
I think it gives you theopportunity to like learn, okay,
this person handles this, thisperson handles this, I can
delegate here.
I need to make sure that I amover-communicating with parents,
right?
Like those are the things thatI think are extremely important.
And so you only learn that onceyou get into the role and as
you continue to grow.
Yeah, they don't teach you thatstuff in admin school, do they?
(27:24):
No, they don't.
They do not.
Principal JL (27:28):
I know, but I appreciate that you have a
resource out there for peoplethat are looking to become
administrators, and I woulddefinitely, you know, suggest
people to go out and get hisbook and check it out.
And I'll actually put it in theshow notes so people can easily
find it and so they can get toget a hold of your book so they
can take a read for it.
(27:48):
So, Donovan, you're not just ayou know an author, but you're
also a podcaster, right?
What inspired you to start theinspiring school leader podcast?
What's the purpose of it?
What's the premise?
What's the reasoning for it?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (28:04):
So, on the Aspiring School Leader
Podcast, I help aspiring schoolleaders confidently land their
first leadership role and leadwith impact from day one.
And what I've noticed was thatthere are some aspiring leaders
who might need interview prepand they might need leadership
(28:24):
development, right?
I think one of the gaps that mypodcast fills is specifically
interview prep because once youfinish your admin program,
you're trying to land that firstleadership role, but you might
need a little bit of coachingand development as it relates to
how to answer these questions.
Because we know that theteacher interview is very
(28:47):
different from the leadershipinterview.
And you have to be able tonavigate that tactfully and
strategically and pull out yourleadership story.
And there's so many things thatI think are extremely
important.
And so when people reach out tome for coaching, they they have
watched the podcast and theyunderstand, like, oh, I actually
do need a little bit ofinterview coaching.
(29:09):
And so, you know, weekly Irelease episodes and just really
getting to the heart of thatleadership interview, but also
providing some leadershipdevelopment for aspiring
leaders.
Awesome, awesome.
Principal JL (29:23):
I really appreciate you doing that work
because there is a gap there.
I know a few other people thatkind of do some of the same type
of coaching as well, and but Ireally appreciate you doing that
because I didn't have that, Ijust figured it out on my own.
And I think when you thoseresources, I'll tell you, you
know what?
There's probably more resourcesfor people that want to get
(29:44):
into leadership now than therewas just even three years ago.
And so I really appreciate youknow the work that you have done
and you are doing for people.
But you know, that's a lot ofwork, right?
It is.
Principal, you're a podcaster,you coach on the side.
(30:05):
How do you balance that?
How do you balance all thesedifferent things?
Like for me, you know, being abuilding principal, which I
love, and then podcasting ismore than enough to keep me
busy.
When it comes to extra things,so how do you balance all that?
What is your secret when youwhen you have all these
different things that I'm gonnahelp people?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (30:28):
It's a day-by-day thing.
And I uh you know, when itcomes to writing, I I think the
trend uh for me, at least withwriting, is whenever I get to
the next level of my career, Itry to write something that'll
help other people get to where Iam.
And so, you know, writing kindof ebbs and flows, but in terms
(30:50):
of the podcast, I try to recordweekly and stay ahead of things.
What I've learned withpodcasting, at least for me, I
typically do like an individualpodcast for about maybe 15 to 20
minutes.
I try to do very limitedediting.
Um, I try to keep it asauthentic as I can.
But it it's it's a challenge,I'd say.
It's a challenge in terms ofbalancing everything.
(31:11):
But I think it's definitelyworth it.
It's something that I'mpassionate about.
It's something that I trulyenjoy.
And I feel like it's it'sbeneficial to other people,
especially based on the feedbackthat I get.
And, you know, the balancingpart is is something that I'm
always trying to figure outbetter ways that I can do that.
But, you know, I I reallyutilize the days off from
(31:34):
school.
I might try to batch record ordo things like that just to make
sure that I have a reserve justin case something happens.
So yeah, the balancing, I Idon't know.
I don't know.
I'm like you, it's more thanenough.
Principal JL (31:48):
Right enough, yeah.
Well, you also have your wifeand your kids and you know, all
that stuff to balance.
I'm a little lucky becauseabout four or five, four of the
five kids I have are out of thehouse.
I have just one left, so it'snot so bad, but I try to I try
to like record once a week whenI have a guest.
You know, if I don't have aguest in the queue, I will
(32:12):
probably record my own likeepisode of something that's
going on that I feel like it'simportant for people to know
about.
So I will do some singlerecordings, but also I'd like
the guest recordings.
You know, with that, I try todo that balance, but I really
enjoy the guests because guesswhat I get to do?
I'm doing some professionaldevelopment.
Uh I learned from you.
(32:35):
Hey, what are some things thatyou've learned?
And I like to hear people'sstories, and that's also the
reason when we hear each other'sstories, we can say, you know
what?
It's not so different in NewJersey as it is in Nebraska or
Florida.
You know, we're all in thistogether, and I think people
need to realize that that, youknow, no matter where you're at
(32:56):
in education, we have similarstruggles, period, no matter
where you're at or what you'redoing, but we're all trying to
figure it out together.
And if we can lean on eachother and support each other,
we're gonna be more successful.
And I think that's where I seethe podcasting going.
Yes, resource for people andhelping each other through these
(33:19):
things because they can listento your podcast, my podcast,
Josh Navarro's podcast, youknow, Principal Faley's podcast,
Darren Pepper's podcast.
I'm just saying it's Houston'spodcast.
I mean, you know, there's a lotof people out there that are
there to support you.
You just gotta plug in and andand let them speak to you so you
(33:43):
can get better.
And I've always taken andlearned things from other people
that helps me become better.
And so I really like theprofessional development.
Do you have some similarexperiences as a podcaster?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (33:57):
Oh, so one of the things, at least for
me, I I do enjoy this part ofthe podcasting in terms of us
collaborating and and havingthis conversation because it
allows me to get a differentperspective based on like I feel
like you we can get caught upin where we are, and this is the
(34:18):
way things are, and we don'tnecessarily look at it like, oh,
there's so many other greatpeople doing great things, but
we don't, we're not exposed toit, right?
So I would never be exposed tothe the great things that you're
doing in Nebraska if we didn'tconnect virtually, right?
Or going to conferences andconnecting with so many people
and seeing, like, oh, for astaff meeting, you might, you
(34:42):
know, make it a make it a littlebit more engaging by doing
this.
Or, you know, I met a principalfrom Kansas City who, for his
staff retreat back to school,he's taking them on a helicopter
ride.
I'm like, that that's amazing,right?
Like, I'm like, they must havesome money there.
But I'm like, just thesethings, right?
(35:03):
Or just like, you know, anotherprincipal I met, he lives in
Seattle.
He's from Seattle, but he's aprincipal in Alaska.
So I was asking him, like, howdoes that dynamic work?
And so I think just havingconversations through
podcasting, through going toconferences, where you're
hearing the perspective of otherpeople, it's inspiring.
(35:24):
It's it's truly inspiring.
Principal JL (35:27):
Yeah.
I also learned by doing that,you find out, you know what, the
things you're doing lines upwith what other great people
that are in this business doingas well.
And so it builds confidence.
You're doing the right things,you're doing the things that
other great leaders do.
And so I think that's anotherpiece that I've learned too when
you connect with people fromacross the nation.
(35:48):
Um, and not just in your ownstate.
It's important to connect tothe people around you in your
state, but they also connectalso nationwide to get those
perspectives.
Because, like I said, we're allin this together and we all
have stories and we all comefrom different places.
But guess what?
We all have the same struggles,we all have the same things
(36:08):
we're working.
We do it together, we'll bebetter forever.
So I just think so.
Let let's talk about peoplethat want to get into becoming a
principal.
What advice would you tellsomebody wants to become an
assistant principal or principalone day out there listening to
(36:30):
this podcast right now?
What would you tell them?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (36:33):
I would tell them if it's something that
they're truly passionate about,try to find a mentor.
I think mentorship is extremelyimportant because it gives you
an opportunity to bounce ideasoff of others.
People can give you someinsight into what this position
that you're walking into istruly like.
I'm a firm believer that youdon't really understand what the
(36:59):
principal or vice principalrole is until you actually sit
in that seat.
I think it's easy to talk aboutwhat you would do and you can
critique and criticize and allof these things, but until you
sit in the seat, you won'tactually know how it feels.
So, you know, if that'ssomething that that an aspiring
leader truly wants to do, find amentor and then strategically
(37:22):
figure out where you want to bein terms of do you think that
you'll be great leading in anelementary school or a middle
school or a high school becausethere are different dynamics
among the three.
And so just figuring out yoursweet spot, I think that's
that's extremely importantbecause it'll narrow down your
options and target where yourimpact is going to land.
Principal JL (37:46):
That's great advice.
I really like how you talkedabout there is a difference
between elementary, middleschool, and high school.
I was a 7-12 principal, so Ispent a lot of time with my
seventh and eighth gradersgetting them ready for high
school at one point.
I'm in my sweet spot because Ilove high school.
I'm at the 9-12 level.
(38:06):
How do I bring my eighth gradersfrom coming from eighth grade
into freshman year?
One of the things we did thisyear was we did a freshman-only
day to where we transition thekids, give them a full day by
themselves in the buildingbecause they're used to teams at
the middle school where all theeighth graders are down this
wing, all the seventh gradersare down this wing, all the
(38:27):
sixth graders down this way.
So they never really mixedexcept amongst each other.
Well, you get thrown into thehigh school.
We call it the welcome to thejungle because you know we're
basically and we're, you know,you come up to high school, it
feels like a jungle because wegot kids, we have a thousand
kids, nine twelve, and freshmenare thrown into that, and it's
almost like feed them to thewolves and see what happens.
(38:50):
We ended up having thisfreshman-only day.
The staff did an amazing jobwith it, but it was just for
those freshmen where they canunderstand the way we operate,
the expectations, and how tofind your classroom.
You know, how to navigate thebuilding.
I'd give them some ice cream, Ifed them some pizza, and it was
(39:13):
a great experience.
We did at scavenger hunts.
We did all these fun activitiesas well as pictures and all
this fun stuff, to the pointwhere the upperclassmen were
jealous because they wouldn'twant to do it.
But it really did help.
And it was you know, thefreshmen's it's like we brought
(39:34):
them the next day back witheverybody, and they just
integrated right in.
Where before that first daywith them was chaotic, and it
was just so much, and we we sawthe difference like immediately.
So that's kind of one of thosethings that you know you learn
as you go, and you have to findthat sweet spot.
(39:54):
Like you said, elementary isdifferent.
I would not go elementary,yeah.
No, not doing it.
Are you like, no, not doing it?
I have a seven year oldteacher.
I could deal with my kid atthat age, but I don't know if I
can deal with other people'skids.
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (40:10):
Right.
Principal JL (40:11):
Uh but yeah, no, I think just go in your
wheelhouse, that's important,and then go for that as well.
Hey Jonathan, what is one thingyou wish you knew as an
educational leader that youdidn't know before getting into
the role?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (40:31):
As an educator, I think I think the
thing that I'm finding out andI'm learning is that because
everyone has been through theschool system, they sometimes
can feel like they can tell youhow to do your job better than
(40:52):
you.
I think that's one of thethings that I'm realizing.
It's like, okay, uh educationis probably one of the few
industries where everybody hasgone through it.
And so now they have anopportunity people have an
opportunity to then say, Well,you should do this.
I don't like how you did this.
Like, and so you have to beable to take it with a grain of
(41:15):
salt, obviously, listen, siftthrough what type of
improvements that you can makebased on the feedback.
I think that's important.
However, you have to alsorecognize that everything that's
being said, you cannot takepersonally.
And so I think during my firstyear, extremely passionate, on
fire for leadership, which Istill am, but a little bit naive
(41:38):
in understanding that everybodyis not going to be on your
side.
People are just going to opposeyou because you're in a
leadership seat.
That's that's what comes withit.
And so you have to, again, nottake any of it personally, don't
take it home with you, don'ttake the stress with you.
Learn how to shut things downwhen it needs to be shut down,
and then come back fresh thenext day and and and give it
(42:02):
your all.
But I think that's that'sprobably what what I'm learning
four years in.
It's like, oh, okay, I see thatbecause everyone has been
through it, the educationalsystem, and because we have to
be open to the feedback, right?
We receive the emails, thephone calls.
People think that they know howto run a school because of
(42:22):
that.
And so, you know, just take itwith a grain of salt, listen to
what you can improve upon andand keep moving.
Principal JL (42:30):
Yeah, I really love that.
That's so true.
Just because everybody's gonethrough school at one point in
their life, and because theywent through school, they'll be
like, Well, when I was inschool, we did it this way, and
that way, you know, so it's likeone of those things like oh, I
mean, okay, I hear you out, butat the same time, there might be
(42:52):
a good idea there once in awhile, you don't know, but at
the same time, yeah, like theygo, Well, you know, I've been
through this, you know, I am aprofessional at this, and that's
what other people forget aboutis like I don't go to the
doctor's office and tell thedoctor how to do his job, right?
You know, you're not sendinghim an email.
Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, Iwould, you know, we're we are
(43:15):
professionals as well, and I youknow, sometimes people lose
sight of that because of that,you know.
Hey, we all been in the schooland they think they know how it
runs, but they really don'tbecause they really haven't been
in a school or worked in aschool, but everybody has these
grand uh grandiose ideas on howit should run based off of
(43:36):
personal experiences.
And like you said, you're Ijust listen.
There might be a good ideathere, and you know, just um
thank you for your feedback.
I'll keep it in mind, and youknow, see you later.
You know, Jonathan, you know,been in a leadership role for a
while.
What gets you excited tocontinue the work that you're
(43:58):
doing?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (44:00):
I think it's the kids, you know, it's
the kids.
I think it's having kids of myown and seeing them grow and
wanting to operate with a levelof excellence for them, you
know, and for all kids.
I think that's that's reallywhat it's about for me.
That's why I got intoeducation, just really focusing
(44:20):
on the students and helping thembe the best that they can be,
really figuring out how to tapinto their greatness, but allow
them to see it.
I think sometimes we can'talways see what we're great at,
the skills, the abilities, thetalents that we have.
We don't always recognize thembecause we have them.
And we're like, uh, we'll brushit to the side because it just
(44:42):
comes so naturally and easily tome.
But that might be the thingthat can cause somebody to, you
know, tap into their greatnessand their light can shine.
And so for me, it's just aboutreally figuring out how we can
pull those skills out of thekids to help them eventually
change the world.
(45:02):
So it's about the the children.
Principal JL (45:05):
I love it.
I love it.
I think we all get into thisbusiness because we want to
impact young life, right?
Yeah you know, we all just havedifferent roles and we have
kind of like the place on theteam.
This is my role, and if we alldo our part, we're gonna be
successful.
But the overall goal is to helpthose kids reach their fullest
potential, and a part of ourrole with that is to help our
(45:28):
teachers reach their fullestpotential so the students can do
it.
And that's kind of like the funpart, right?
How do I pull these levers toget the results that we're we're
wanting for everybody?
And that doesn't matter.
That's prostination.
Wherever you're at as aprincipal or as an educator,
that's what your goals are,regardless of the background you
(45:49):
come from, what city you livein.
That's the ultimate goal is tohave people have a great
experience and help them streaktheir potential so they can be
contributing adults to society.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
I really appreciate you knowthat and that that feedback as
well.
Now, Donathan, we've been herefor a while.
(46:10):
We've talked a lot of greatthings.
You know, if people wanted toconnect with you, and you know,
maybe they will need a coach andsomebody that needs to help
them get that firstprincipalship job, or hey, maybe
they want to read your book, orhey, maybe they want to follow
you on social media.
How can people connect withyou?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (46:29):
So, my book, Beyond the Classroom, is
on Amazon.
You can find it there.
You can also connect with me onall social media platforms at
Donovan SmallsNumber Two.
And then they can also visit mywebsite, Donovan Smalls the
Number Two.com.
And my my podcast is theAspiring School Leader Podcast.
(46:51):
It's on YouTube, Spotify, andalso Apple Podcasts.
Principal JL (46:55):
Awesome.
And everybody, I'll put thatinformation in the show notes.
So all you have to do is godown there and click on it, and
boom, there you go.
All right, Donovan.
This has been a greatconversation.
I really appreciate you beingon the show.
Do you have any last wordsbefore we go?
Dr. Donovan Smalls II (47:12):
Um, I'd just like to thank you for the
work that you're doing.
I really appreciate you knowyou highlighting other
educational leaders and justgiving us an opportunity to
share and have conversation andlearn.
I've learned so much from youbased on the things that you've
shared, and I'm inspired and I'mready to go.
So thank you.
(47:33):
What a conversation with Dr.
Principal JL (47:36):
Donovan Smalls II.
I hope you loved learning abouthis journey from the classroom
to educational leadership.
It just shows that becoming aneducational leader is not
linear, and there are many pathsthat educational leaders have
in their journey.
If this episode resonates withyou, please share it with
someone who needs to hear it.
Please subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss
(47:59):
another impactful episode whenit drops.
Until next time, be curious and1% better.
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