A single question from a group of students rerouted a career—and sparked a movement. That’s how Dr. Salome Thomas-EL, widely known as Principal EL, went from TV production to a life in education, using chess to teach math, identity, and grit while building a school culture where kids line up to get in. We talk about the early days in Philadelphia, why engagement must precede information, and how a chessboard became intellectual capital that changed how students saw themselves and how others saw them.
The story stretches from neighborhood classrooms to national championships, but the wins don’t stop at trophies. Former players graduated from Temple Law, UVA, Cornell, Penn State, and HBCUs, carrying with them skills that rarely show up on state tests; critical thinking, self-regulation, empathy, and patience. Along the way, Principal EL lays out his Four C’s: be Crazy about kids, be Curious about their lives, be Consistent as adults, and build a Culture that blends joy with high expectations. He explains why high school reform starts in kindergarten, how strategic losses teach more than streaks, and what it takes to keep talented educators choosing to stay.
We also dive into his new book, Meet Their Needs and They’ll Succeed, a field guide for trauma-informed, culturally responsive, and relentlessly practical leadership. From the hospital metaphor that reframed teacher care to the often overlooked power of after-school programs and community partners, every story points to the same truth: when the right adults show up with belief and structure, kids rise. If you’re an aspiring principal or a veteran leader, you’ll leave with actionable ideas, renewed purpose, and a reminder that service is the heart of leadership.
If this conversation moved you, subscribe, share it with a colleague who needs a spark, and leave a review; what’s one change you’ll make this week?
Connect with Principal EL:
Website: https://www.principalel.com/
X: @Principal_EL
Instagram: @dr.principalel
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/PrincipalEL
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Principal JL (00:59):
Today's guest embodies the spirit of
purpose-driven leadership ineducation.
Dr.
Salome Thomas-EL, also known tomany as Principal EL.
Principal EL has dedicated hislife to serving students and
transforming schools since 1987.
He is currently leading a K-8school in Wilmington, Delaware.
(01:21):
But his story first capturednational attention in
Philadelphia, where as a teacherand chess coach at Vaux Middle
School, his students becameeight-time national chess
champions.
He is the author ofbest-selling books I Choose to
Stay and The Immortality ofInfluence, both of which
highlight the power ofleadership, mentoring, and
(01:43):
service.
His latest work, Meet TheirNeeds and They'll Succeed,
released in April of 2025,continues that mission,
reminding educators everywherethat every child can thrive when
we lead with heart and holdhigh expectations.
Principal EL's impact extendsfar beyond his school walls.
(02:04):
He's appeared on C-SPAN, CNN,MPR, Good Morning America, and
the Oprah Radio Network.
He studied leadership abroad.
He earned his doctorate ineducational leadership from
Wilmington University and hasbeen recognized with honors,
such as the Marcus A.
Foster Award for OutstandingAdministration in Philadelphia
(02:25):
and the University ofPennsylvania's Martin Luther
King Award.
Readers Digest even named himan inspiring American icon.
From chessboards to classroom,Principal L continues to prove
that when we invest inrelationships, resilience, and
belief, kids will rise.
Now, before we get to theepisode, just so you know,
(02:48):
there's an Easter egg in thisepisode, so be paying attention.
Now let's get to ourconversation with Principal L.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother exciting episode of the
(03:10):
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I am so excited to haveDr.
Salome Thomas-EL or akaPrincipal EL on the show.
Principal EL, welcome to theshow.
Principal EL (03:23):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Principal EL here speaking toPrincipal JL.
Doesn't get any better thanthat.
Principal JL (03:31):
You bet, you bet.
Hey, Principal EL.
I'm going to go ahead and startyou off with the same question
I ask everybody on the show.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Principal EL (03:42):
What inspired me to become an educator?
Well, I'm going to be honestwith you.
When I was an undergrad incollege, I wanted to go to law
school.
I was a uh TV journalismcommunications major.
And my one of the deans in ourcommunication calls, he said,
don't be an attorney.
Make a difference, be ateacher.
But I went on and started asmall career as an assistant
(04:06):
producer on a local cable sportstelevision station in Philly.
Went to a high school to speakabout my job and TV and talk to
the kids about how you know mymind raised.
You know, eight kids, didn'thave a car.
My teachers drove me to school,picked me up.
And and the kids said to meafter the program, you know, if
if if your teachers did that foryou, how come you aren't a
(04:29):
teacher?
And that was it for me.
I walked into my TV job and Iquit and I enrolled in graduate
school, got a master's degree,and went back to the same high
school and started teachingJeff.
And it was it was right rightfrom there that I now I started
working in high school, and thehigh school kids said, you know,
we were only joking, Mr.
(04:49):
We thought you would hook us upwith a TV job when we
graduated.
You know, but I realized earlyon that uh those kids will make
you feel like you can walk onwater.
You know you found your homewhen you find your calling.
And I also realized that highschool reform does not begin in
high school.
That there are kids whostruggle in elementary middle
(05:11):
school long before they get intohigh school.
And so I uh I spent the next 10years of my life in a feeder
middle school.
And in 10 years, we lost almost20 young people to murder in
that community.
And I realized I had to find away that I could teach students
that they could choose thebehavior, but they couldn't
choose the consequences.
And that's why I started toteach chess.
(05:32):
And I know we'll probably getinto that later on, but that was
really how I got my starter inTV, talking to kids in the high
school.
How come you aren't teaching?
Started teaching and just fellin love with with the kids from
that was 39 years ago, sir.
And I'm still going.
Principal JL (05:49):
Awesome, awesome.
Hey, we appreciate you doingall the things you're doing to
impact kids uh for the last 39years.
So thank you for that.
So, principal EL, let's talkabout what subject did you teach
with that with teaching.
Is there any lessons you had asa teacher that helped you when
you became a principal down theroad?
Principal EL (06:11):
I was a math teacher and I worked, also
worked in an in-schoolsuspension program and worked
with some special educationprograms as well.
That's actually where Iinitially started my chess
program, teaching specialeducation students at
mathematics, teaching themmathematics on the chessboard.
That was an engagement beforeinformation.
(06:33):
That's something I learnedearly on.
That we had to find a way toengage students before we could
teach them anything, build thatconnection, that bridge, that
relationship, and then they'llstart buying into and getting
that confidence.
And one of, you know, one ofthe lessons I really learned
early on was that teaching thesestudents mathematics and chess
(06:55):
early on that smart is notsomething you are, it is
something you can become.
So it's not a fixed mindset.
You just have to believe thatyou know you can become
successful, that you can learnanything and creating that that
learning culture in yourclassroom and in your school.
And then the bottom line isreally that kids don't, you
(07:15):
know, Dr.
Rita Pearson made it a powerfulTED Talk years ago.
She passed away right after shetalked about every child needs
a champion, but she also saidsomething very controversial in
that TED Talk.
She said, kids don't learn frompeople they don't like.
There's some folks who disagreewith that.
And I don't think she was, Idon't think she was promoting
(07:36):
that we we need to be on a questto be liked by students.
I tell my young people all thetime, if I don't need friends,
if I want a friend, I'll get apet.
You know, I need some youngpeople that want to work hard
and and grind, but I think it'salso true that we want those
students to see themselves in usand we see ourselves in them.
(07:58):
Once that connection's made, Ithink the learning begins and
there's nothing that can stopit.
And so early on as a teacher, Irealized that instead of trying
to be that educator who justsaid, you know, no excuses, you
come in and you gotta make ithappen.
I had to think about all thoseadults who helped me, sir, who
(08:20):
didn't say no excuses, whodidn't say, you know, tie up
your shoes and get it done.
They said, no, what do youneed?
What can I do to meet yourneeds?
And that that's when I reallyshifted my career, became the
educator that tried to meet theneeds of young people.
I I tried to go where they wereand take them to where I wanted
them to go.
(08:40):
And I, you know, I end upsaying to students often that my
goal is to get you in the PennState and not the state Penn.
So let's go.
Principal JL (08:47):
There you go.
Oh wait, so you are you tellingme you're a Penn State fan?
I'm from Pennsylvania, I'm from Philly. I'man even bigger Eagles fan, you
know, because we just won theSuper Bowl.
We did a number on the KansasCity Chiefs, a great
organization, but uh, we justhad to handle our business.
But uh, yeah, so I'm a PennState fan from Pierre.
(09:09):
I went to small college ofUpstate PA near uh Penn State,
but a proud Philly guy and sucha fan of giving young people the
runway, getting them on therunway, and let them choose
whatever career path you knowthey want.
But I think it begins withengagement, with joy, learning,
(09:31):
and resilience.
And those have really been mymy keys to successful for young
people.
Awesome.
I really appreciate it.
I remember that TED talk whereshe said people don't learn from
where from people they don'tlike.
And I took away from that isbuilding that relationship with
kids is gonna help you help themlearn because if they don't
(09:52):
have a relationship with you,then forget about it, it's not
gonna happen as well becauseyou're able to, like you said,
meet the needs where they're atand help them get to where they
need to be.
And I think that's reallypowerful.
Those are some things I taughtmath as well.
So yeah, the math teacher, 11years.
So I did that all at thesecondary level when it came
(10:14):
down to it.
So let's talk about like thechess team a little bit.
What got you?
You kind of were kind ofalluding to it.
You were helping specialeducation kids learn, you know,
some math through playing chess.
And where did that start?
And you know, where did youknow it kind of ended up
becoming like nationalchampionship chess teams, right?
(10:35):
Yeah, really kind of take usthrough that story.
I would love for our listenersto to hear that story.
Principal EL (10:41):
Yeah, so you know, I'm I'm teaching these kids
mathematics on a chessboard,knights move on right angles,
bishops move on diagonals, thechessboard is a large square
that contains 64 smallersquares.
And I thought, you know, justthat I was just giving these
students mathematics on achessboard.
What I was really giving themwas intellectual capital.
(11:01):
They were now walking aroundthe school carrying chessboards.
And if you don't assumeanything else about a kid who
carries a chessboard, you assumethat they're smart or
intelligent.
So these students are walkingaround the school carrying chess
boards, and other studentswould run up to them and say,
You play chess, aren't you inthe learning disabled program?
They say, Yeah, let's play amatch and see if you should be
(11:23):
my roommate, right?
Like it humbles you.
And so these students startedbeating me, other students, all
of the kids in the school wantedto play, and it became more
popular than basketball.
And I saw the teacher said,Take them out, have them compete
against other schools,elementary and middle schools.
And so they're competing andthey're winning.
These students aren't losing amatch, and I'm worried, and the
(11:45):
teacher's like, What are youworried about?
Because I knew what was coming.
Because these students startedwinning so much, they didn't
want to practice them.
They said, Practice?
You talking about practice?
I said, You gotta come topractice like this.
That's it, we're winning.
So I said, I gotta, I gottafind a way to humble these young
people.
So we started competing againsthigh schools and they started
(12:08):
losing, and that's what Iwanted.
Because you learn more fromlosing, sir, than you do from
winning at any level.
Amateur, professional,basketball, football, baseball,
it doesn't matter.
You will study those tapes whenyou lose.
And uh lose, lose, lose, andthen they beat central high
school chess team.
These are elementary middleschool students.
Central high school inPhiladelphia is one of the
(12:31):
oldest high schools in thenation.
And and I said, Wow, if weraise the bar for these young
people, they'll rise to ourlevel of expectation.
So I took them out to competeat the U.S.
amateur chess championship,over 220 teams, larger than the
Olympics, no age limit.
They won first place, defeateda team from Bucknell University,
(12:51):
defeated a team of four menwhose combined age was over 200
years, never done before in U.S.
chess history.
And then uh went to Knoxville,Tennessee later that year in
1997, won a nationalchampionship.
Arnold Schwarz nigga came tovisit our school in the fall.
He wanted to run for governorpresident, challenged one of my
young ladies to chess, and Isaid, Arnold, don't fool with
(13:14):
these girls.
They treat these chess pieceslike offspring.
They'll play hours and nevertrade a piece.
A piece, he said, no, I want toplay her.
I said, Arnold, you don't wantto play Denise.
She's one of the top 50 femalechess players in the nation in
the AIDS division.
She's also in church everyWednesday, Friday, and Sunday,
Arnold.
You won't beat her.
He said, No, I want to.
And Denise said, I'll play him,Miss L.
(13:36):
He's rich, he's famous.
He's married to a woman who hasmore money than he does.
So I know he's upset.
I said, Who taught you that?
And she said she checked me.
She said, I checkmate him, Itreat him just like he was
another guy.
Arnold said, You terminated theterminator.
And then he wrote a check forour program for $20,000.
We've never asked our schooldistrict for a dime.
(13:58):
We were from a very poor schooldistrict.
These students traveled toPortland, Oregon, Seattle,
Arizona, Florida, Yugoslavia,compete against the national
team.
It was just an amazingexperience for these young
people.
But what I was most proud of,sir, was that these students
also were graduated from TempleLaw School, University of
Virginia, Cornell University,Penn State, Temple University,
(14:20):
Howard University, you know,Delaware State, Morgan State
Bowie State, just it was HamptonUniversity.
It was just so amazing to seethese students realize their
dreams through school andthrough chess.
And it was the travel, theexposure that many of them
talked about was a realspringboard and a lifesaver.
You know, for them, chess Iwould tell people was the great
(14:43):
equalizer.
Because when you sit acrossthat board, it doesn't matter
how old that opponent is.
Some of these young people,some of these chess masters,
sir, are eight, nine, ten yearsold.
And they defeat team, theyteach defeat men 30, 40, 50
years old.
Young females can defeat anadult male.
It's the equalizer.
(15:04):
No, it's my brain against yourbrain.
And it became it became my mymagic wand.
And I I've been using it everyday, ever since, because it's a
way for me to connect and buildrelationships with young people,
but it's also a way for me tochallenge them beyond the norm
and something that's academic,you know, for for our young
(15:27):
people.
So it's been great.
My school in Wilmington,Delaware, they're two-time
national chess champions, theonly school in Delaware that
ever win a national title.
So it's been a great run and agreat ride.
And I'm just glad that thestudents have embraced this
concept of chess, criticalthinking, problem solving,
reasoning, patience.
(15:47):
It's just um, it's just anamazing opportunity for them to
uh to really improve.
Uh and these are skills thatquite often will never get
tested on the state test, butmost employers tell you are most
important to the success ofemployees, self-regulation,
discipline, you know,friendship, kindness, problem
(16:08):
solving, critical thinking,analyzing.
These are all skills that youngpeople and adults need and will
need for the remainder of theirlives.
Principal JL (16:17):
Yeah, I totally agree with you on that.
100% being in public education.
I'm in Nebraska and publiceducation, Nebraska is pretty
decent.
I mean, it's not bad.
And that's one of the things wetalk about is like, hey, how
are we challenging our kids?
How are we raising the barform?
How are we holding themaccountable?
Where are our expectations?
But also how are we helpingthem craft?
(16:38):
How are we helping them gainskills they need to have so they
can become employable whenthey're done?
Because in a high schoolsetting for me, I'm getting them
ready to go out into theworking world.
And you're right, you talkabout building a foundation at
(17:09):
that elementary and middleschool.
And if they don't have it, thenthe high school is trying to
fill those gaps.
And so I see the importance ofa strong foundation at that
elementary level as well as thatmiddle school level.
So by the time they get to thehigh school, you know, they can
maybe even achieve more thanthey would have if they would
have had, you know, with thefoundation that was built.
(17:31):
So I appreciate you know thethings that you do at that
elementary level and that middleschool level to help those kids
build that foundation becauseit helps us high schoolers,
principals a lot when you guysdo that.
So I appreciate that.
So, you know, with this successas a teacher and a chess coach,
what was it that inspired youto become a principal, to take
(17:53):
that next step into leadership?
Was it a tap on the shoulder?
Was it, you know, just you knewit was time?
What was it that inspired youto take the next step and become
a principal?
Principal EL (18:06):
It was a multitude of things.
One of the issues for me wasteaching chess in the elementary
and middle in a and teachingchess in the middle school, is I
wanted to be able to teachstudents chess at an earlier
age.
And I wanted to be able toteach all the students.
So I said, I want to become aprincipal so I can have all the
(18:26):
students, require all thestudents to learn chess.
But also, you know, I had anassistant superintendent who
tapped me and said, Hey, you'reready.
Now I had a principal who toldme I wasn't ready.
And my assistant superintendentsaid, Listen, your principal is
gonna tell you that for therest of your life because he
doesn't want you to leave.
Um, he wants you to stay thereand help run that school.
(18:48):
He said, But you're ready.
And I think uh these studentsand teachers are missing out on
an opportunity if you don't, ifyou don't take a job.
So, and when I was assistantprincipal, I became an assistant
principal at the school where Iwas teaching.
I talk about this in my firstbook, I choose to stay, how the
superintendent, the chief ofstaff called and wanted to move
(19:12):
me to a nearby middle school inthe middle of school year.
It was a Friday, and theywanted me to report on Monday as
an I was a teacher at the time,I'm sorry, and they wanted to
promote me to assistantprincipal, and I turned it down.
And this chief of staff said,Why are you turning it down?
It's a big $20,000 raise.
And I said, I talk to thesekids all the time about how it's
(19:34):
not about the money.
And if they came in on Mondayand I wasn't here, they would
know that I left for the money.
So it's not that I don't wantto become an administrator.
I love the school district.
You'll probably never offer mea job again, but I just can't
leave these kids in the middleof the year.
I'm one of the few male rolemodels they have, and I just
gotta stand on my word.
(19:55):
And um, and I'll be.
And that's how the whole IChoose to stay movement got
started.
As a matter of fact, my book, Ichoose to stay, starts out.
The first chapter starts outwith that story.
And my principal's upset withme because how could you try to
leave me?
I said, I didn't try to leave.
They recruited me, but I turnedit down.
And and and the suit, and thechief of staff said, No, she
(20:17):
said, I think once otherprincipals hear why you're
turning this job down, most ofthem will want, they're gonna
want you to work for them.
So I admire you for you knowyour decision.
And um, and I became anassistant principal at the
school where I was, you know, ayear later.
But but I just had to, it was atough decision because my
family, we needed the money.
Just me moving up could haveopened a position for someone
(20:40):
else.
But just at the time, I justneeded to send a message to
those young people that I said Iwould be here for you and money
wouldn't take me away.
And um, and when I be, when Istarted, when the chess program
became when we won a nationalchampionship, I started getting
six-figure offers to move tosuburban districts.
A teacher became anadministrator, and I turned it
(21:02):
down because I wanted to stay inthe inner city with the young
people, the same community whereI grew up without a dad, those
teachers there, many of themdidn't look like me.
They were young, white femalesand uh African-American female
teachers who took me under theirwing, looked out for me.
There were some male rolemodels, but it just was so many
(21:22):
more women in our profession.
And so I felt like I owed it tothem to make that same.
They chose to stay for me, sir.
And so I wanted to make thatsame decision uh for them.
But that's what led me to wantto become a leader so I could
impact others' young people, butI could have a stronger impact
on teachers, you know, as well,and maybe start a whole I choose
(21:45):
to stay movement, you know,with a school, you know, full of
teachers.
So that's really what inspiredme.
A younger student to teach somechess because the 85% of the
brain is developed before theyever walk into a school, you
know, pre-K, kindergarten, firstgrade, you know, most of the
brain is developed.
We can't wait until middleschool and high school to teach
(22:05):
students critical thinkingskills.
We got to get them early.
So that's I wanted that's why Iwanted to start early, but I
also wanted a bigger impact aswell.
Principal JL (22:15):
Yeah, awesome.
How many years were youassistant principal before you
moved into the principalship?
Principal EL (22:19):
Just two years, and my uh assistant super tapped
me and said, Listen, I got aschool.
It's a turnaround, it's aturnaround, but it was one block
from my middle school, so Icould run my elementary program
and my middle school chessprogram at the same time.
So it was a win-win for me.
Principal JL (22:37):
Oh, that's awesome.
So you kind of alluded to thebook, I choose to stay.
I I'll go ahead and we'll goahead and talk about it right
now.
What do you want people to takeaway from that book?
I choose to stay.
What is it that you want peopleto really know about that book?
Principal EL (22:56):
That book was really, it was my life story,
and and I remember, and and umthe book was published in 2003.
And I remember around 2000,2001, we were shopping it around
to publishers, and nopublishers would bite on it.
They they just said teacherswouldn't read about other
teachers, and you know, just it,and then just a story about an
educator just wasn'tinteresting.
(23:18):
And uh, but then I had one NewYork publisher said, We're gonna
make it our lead hardcovertitle.
And you know, John Grisham'sfirst book wasn't even in
hardcover.
And they said, We're gonna makeit our lead hardcover title
because we just believe in thestory and the power of
educators.
Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote theforward in the book.
As soon as the book waspublished, Disney optioned the
(23:39):
movie rights, 50,000 copies inprint, you know, with almost
little to no uh promotion.
And it was just all teachersand administrators out there
supporting me, supporting thestory, the message of I choose
to stay.
And it was really about meturning down those jobs, making
that choice to stay.
It's a choice we all make, nomatter where we are.
(24:00):
It's a choice we make to bethere for those young people,
for those adults who are savingprivate Ryan every day.
And so they did it for me.
And I turned around and I said,I'm gonna do it for them.
And I'm hoping to inspire awhole nation of educators to
make that choice.
And if you don't choose tostay, that's great too.
(24:20):
Because guess what?
The time that you did give theyoung people, they're much
better off for it.
Everybody can't stay 10, 20, 30years like us, sir.
But those who do, God blessyou.
But those who don't, you youchose to serve for some period
of your life.
And if we could get everybodyto just do that, I think we'd be
much better off in in uh inpublic education.
(24:43):
And also, I choose to stay endswith a story.
One of my former chess players,a young man, Otis Bullock, a
struggling family, graduatedhigh school, went to college,
and called me up his senioryear.
And he said, Listen, it'sFriday and I'm graduating on
Sunday, and I don't want you tocome.
Principal L.
He said, But I need one favor.
I need you to let everyteacher, every teacher that you
(25:06):
know, let them know that one oftheir kids made it and tell them
that I said, Thank you.
And I said, Otis, you don'tunderstand.
I need to come to yourgraduation.
I've been to too many funerals,I need to go to more
graduations.
He said, No, don't come.
But let them know.
I said, Thank you.
I called every teacher I could,Jeff, and I said, We dangle, we
need to dangle the academiccare for these children.
(25:28):
We close our schools down whenthey win the state football
championship.
We've got to support theseyoung people.
And they showed up, and thatyoung man, when he graduated,
100-degree heat, people passingout in the heat.
We took pictures of him withhis friends, with people he
didn't even know.
We were so happy to see one ofour kids make it.
That was in June of 2000, andhe shared with us that some of
(25:50):
his friends, some family, didn'tcome to graduation.
I said, look in the audience.
Every teacher I could find, Icalled, and they came out.
And in May 2004, that young mangraduated from Temple Law
School.
It was the proudest moment, youknow, of my life.
I said, This is the reason whyI chose to stay.
This is why I wrote that book.
Because I wanted that young manto uh to know that we supported
(26:13):
him, and I wanted some otheryoung person to know that that I
need to make that decision andbecome a teacher and do the same
thing, you know, for somebodyelse.
So that's really what I chooseto stay is about.
It's about just the work ofteachers and administrators out
here who are making adifference.
We go and recognize.
And my story is not about oneexceptional educator leader.
(26:35):
There are thousands andthousands of them out there
every day.
You know, you're on the frontlines, you see what these
teachers are doing, andespecially at the high school
level, because you know, I canimagine what it's like with you
know I have 13 and 14 years old.
I can imagine 15, 16, 17.
You know, that's gotta be anadventure.
But you know, but you're stilldoing the work, you're still a
(26:56):
blesser and not a stressor foryoung people.
And um, and that's really whatI wanted that book to do.
And and here I am, six books.
I'm on book number six now, wasjust published a few months
ago.
Proud and honored that I wasable to sort of spearhead and be
a part of the movement torecognize and thank these
(27:17):
teachers and leaders out herewho are making that choice to
stay.
Because these are somechallenging times, sir, as you
know, very challenging times foreducators, but they make that
choice and show up every day forour young people.
Principal JL (27:30):
You bet.
Yeah, you're no, no joke, it isa challenging time, especially
in public education, where youknow you kind of hear all the
negativity out there in the inthe media, and you're just like,
and I'm sitting here at homegoing like, really?
Like it's not that bad, it'snot as bad as you guys make it
out to be.
I want to like call up the newsstations and be like, dude,
(27:50):
knock it off.
Like, you're not helping us,you're not helping us at all.
And it just drives me nuts thatthey would say all these
negative things about publiceducation.
But when it comes down to it,that's why you know, for the
high school, we are reallystrong about you know, sharing
our narrative, what's going on?
What are the great things thatare happening at our school and
(28:11):
sharing it out on social media,letting our parents know our
community knows so they canrally behind it.
So when there is a negativething about the school, we have
all these positive things thatwe can we can talk about and
say, you know what, for the mostpart, 95%, 99% of the time,
we're doing great things at thisschool.
And so you want to be able toshare your story as a as a
(28:34):
principal as a school.
And I have a great social mediateam that does that.
So that's something we reallyfocus on because we know and
hear the narratives out thereabout public education, and
that's our way to kind ofequalize that as well.
So you've been a principal fora while, you know, been 39 years
in education, you know,teacher, assistant principal,
principal.
(28:54):
There's a lot of proud momentsfor you.
Is there one that sticks outthe most?
You know, as a principal, isthere something that
accomplishment that you're mostproud of, or are they all, you
know, proud of all of them thesame?
Principal EL (29:10):
There are just so many.
You know, I won principal ayear in Philadelphia, and I was
awarded, I was given the awardby my former high school teacher
and principal, who was then thesuperintendent of the school
district.
So my former teacher was nowthe superintendent, and she was
giving her former student theaward as the top principal in
(29:33):
the district.
So that was a great honor forme.
I was also selected in 2006 byPhiladelphia Magazine, uh, which
is the largest magazine youknow in the city as the best
Philadelphian.
So they do this top restaurantsin Philly, top doctors, top
lawyers, but they pick oneperson in the city as like the
best person that representsPhiladelphia.
(29:54):
In 2006, I was a Prince MiddleSchool principal there, and they
selected little old me as thebest Philadelphian.
And um at the time, I just wentto spend the weekend with Will
Smith because we were trying toget Will to play me in the movie
when Disney bought the movieright, so I choose to stay.
And uh and word had gottenaround the city that you know
I've been hanging out with WillSmith in LA and that kind of
(30:16):
thing.
Because Will, you know, Will'sa Philly guy too.
But uh there have just been somany moments, you know, going to
the graduation and seeing thosekids graduate, you know, you
know, walking into differentplaces and seeing kids, you
know, working.
It just lets you know thatlisten, I planted it, I planted
a tree whose shade I may neverenjoy.
(30:37):
And for that reason, I'm abetter person.
And I know world, the world's,you know, a better place.
So it's a great feeling to beable to see those young people.
Meeting amazing people onsocial media like you, you know,
and then being able to see youin conferences and things like
that.
I think that's another likehighlight, proud moment for me
(30:57):
when I get to meet people that Imeet, educators, you know, on
social media and get to meetthem, you know, on the screen or
you know, in person.
Those are proud moments, youknow, as well.
And then of course, with mychess teams are winning national
titles, you know, it's it's agreat, great feeling to see
those students, you know.
Make those accomplishmentsbecause many times often they
(31:19):
doubt themselves.
You know, I think that was onething that surprised me is how
many young people just lack thatconfidence in believing that
they are enough.
So, as educators, you know, wethat's a role we fill in just
letting young people know,building them up, lifting up,
elevating them to understandthat you know they are enough,
that they can be powerful, theycan be great, they can be
(31:41):
successful, and they don't havethey don't have to wait until
later to be greater.
You can be great right now,today.
Just keep working hard, youknow, and keep pushing.
So I've been principal for 25years, sir.
And it has been a long andarduous journey for me, but it's
one I don't regret at all.
And I tell people all the timethat as a principal, we bring
(32:04):
the joy to school.
And there's no other job whereyou walk into the building and
everybody wants your attention,everybody calls your name,
everybody just needs a moment.
You got a minute, you got aminute, because you have become
that person.
You you create that culturewhere they know you care and
they know that you'll doeverything you can to try to
help solve any issue you knowthey have.
(32:27):
So it's it's been an honor, youknow, and a blessing, and to be
on this journey with you.
And you know, sometimes we textand email and share some of the
things we have going on in ourschools.
It's just great to have thatconnection with other principals
and other leaders in thecountry as well.
Principal JL (32:42):
Yeah, I really appreciate all the people that
I've connected with on thisjourney of really taking my
podcast to the next level.
And it's something I reallystarted dedicating myself
December of last year.
And I've just met so manydifferent people from all walks
of life, from all over thecountry, and I've learned
something from every singleguest that's been on this show
(33:05):
that I can actually go, you knowwhat?
That's a great idea.
Maybe that's something I canapply at the position I'm at as
a principal.
And so let's talk about youknow, one of those things that
you talk about school success,you talk about the four C's.
What is the four C's and howcan that impact schools?
Principal EL (33:24):
Yeah, those four C's, I've been talking about the
four C's for years, and theyactually are the foundation for
my new book, Meet Their Needs,and and they'll succeed.
And and I I believe that you'recrazy about kids, curious about
their lives outside of school,uh, consistent adults in their
lives, and then a culture oflove and joy and support.
(33:46):
And that first C being crazyabout kids, that's just the
connection.
That's that's the relationship.
That's that's that kids don'tlearn from people they don't
like.
You know, that's that C whereit's like, hey, what do you
need?
The guy.
I'm the one that's gonna makeit happen for you.
Now, I'm gonna make it hard onyou now, so it's easy on you
later in life.
(34:07):
So it's not gonna be easy, butI'm gonna support you.
I have high expectations foryou, but I'm gonna support you
and be there for you.
That curiosity is importantbecause curiosity is the key to
learning.
So curious about their livesoutside of school.
That's that culturallycompetent educator, that
trauma-informed educator thatwants to know about that
(34:29):
student.
Where do you come from?
What's your culture?
What's your family like?
Like, what do you do?
What are your interests?
Because I'm going to design mylessons in class, and my
school's gonna be designed sothat you're interested and
engaged in school on a dailybasis.
And then we have thatconsistency, right?
Because that curiosity isimportant because you know the
(34:52):
impact of an educator is notbased on the ability, our
ability to teach, but rather ourability to learn and be
curious.
But then we've got to beconsistent with that because
those students lack thatoftentimes in their lives.
So they don't need to be in aschool with it principal after
principal after principal,teacher after teacher after
teacher in the same classroom inone year.
(35:14):
They need to see the sameadults there for them.
And then we need to beconsistent in how we support
them, how we discipline them,how we love them, um, how we
communicate with them, becausethat gives them that sense of
security, that safety, thatpredictability is important.
And then lastly, that culture,that positive school culture,
(35:39):
that love, that lifting them up,that empowering those young
people, creating that agency forthem so they can advocate for
themselves and one another, butalso so they develop that
empathy and understanding andkindness.
And that's the kind of culture,that's that joyful and
resilient school culture ouryoung people need.
(36:01):
And and those four C's are thefoundation, really, you know, of
my book.
Everything is rooted in how arewe connecting with those young
people, being creative andcurious for them, consistent
with them, and then that culturewhere those students are
knocking the door down to get ininstead of knocking the door
(36:22):
down to get out.
Principal JL (36:24):
Awesome.
I really love that.
The four C's.
I when I was reading through itand learning about it, I'm like
going, yeah, this makes sense.
This is something thatresonates, and this doesn't
matter where you're at.
Like, if you're in a publiceducation, you use these four
C's, they will help youtransform your school.
So I really appreciate yousharing the four C's with us
(36:45):
today.
So let's talk about a littlebit of your new book.
You kind of alluded to it alittle bit, meet their needs and
they'll succeed.
Really, what do you want peopleto take away from this book
when they read it?
This is your new one, onethat's been out for about what,
six months or so?
So about six months or so.
So, what what's the bigtakeaway you want people to get
(37:06):
from this book?
Principal EL (37:08):
I want I wrote this book because I really
wanted teachers, leaders,parents, community members.
I wanted them to see that ourstudents can be successful when
the right adult makes thatchoice to stay in their lives.
And and and in the book, I openup the book with the story
(37:30):
because you know, a few yearsago on Father's Day, I'm sitting
in the hospital, right?
Not at home eating dinner withmy family.
I'm in a hospital getting anemergency appendectomy.
And I'm in the hospital, andthese nurses are caring, then
they're waking me up every twohours with medication, you know,
just checking on me andwhatnot, checking my vitals, but
(37:52):
they're caring for me.
And I said to myself, Wow, thisis what every kid needs.
Here I am in a hospital makingan association with what we need
in schools, because every childneeds like someone who's like a
nurse who can just care.
Now, those now, my night nursewas amazing.
That nurse during the day, shewas a little rough with me.
(38:15):
So I said, you know, thatthat's an issue that these
because these young people thatgo from teacher to teacher to
teacher, everyone won't be thesame.
Some will be like my nightnurse, some will be like my
nurse in the daytime.
But one of the things I tooknote of that every one of those
nurses could close that curtain,Jeff, and just work with me.
Our teachers can't do that,they've got to treat their
(38:36):
patients in front of all of theother patients in the classroom.
So that's why teachers have tobe so creative and down there.
There's so many demands andstresses on them on a daily
basis.
So, as a principal, imaginetrying to support somebody who
has to, you know, do so well onso many different levels.
But I just said that this thatinspired me to write the book.
(38:59):
That I've I'm gonna write abook just talking about how
meeting the needs, meeting theneeds of these young people has
to be paramount for us asteachers and leaders.
And so I talk about the fourC's, I talk about you know, just
the trauma in the lives ofyoung people that carrying these
backpacks with so much in itthat we never see.
They may never share with us.
(39:19):
And uh, and each chapter beginswith a story.
You know, in my trauma chapter,I talk about this kid Bones
Highland, who, you know, was atough kid, struggled in uh in
our school and good basketballplayer.
Um, had a fire in high school,had to jump out of the window,
shattered his knee.
Doctors told him he'd neverplay ball again.
He came back, rehabbed himself,scored 50 points in three
(39:41):
straight high school games.
None of the college hasrecruited him because he he he
was injured.
So he went to VCU player of theyear.
(40:31):
Denver Nuggets drafted him.
The Lakers didn't draft andthey passed him over.
He scored 27 points on LeBronJames.
You know, and I'm like, this iswhat our kids can do.
We just gotta support them, wegotta believe in them.
And I've got a great chapter onjoyful, engaging, and
challenging classrooms, and oneon critical thinking, and one on
community support and afterschool programs because that's a
(40:54):
pillar that we don't often talkabout, how important those
after-school programs are, butalso those community partners.
And then I close the book outwith choosing to stay.
Like, how can we supporteducators in making that choice?
And I think I really wrote thatchapter in the book to inspire
(41:15):
just one educator to just say, Ican continue to do this.
There's some young person thatwants to become a teacher, and
if I keep going, they might makethat decision to to uh to do
that.
So the book is filled with, youknow, I got some of my jokes,
my rhymes in there, got somegreat stories, but it's really
(41:35):
all about trying to encourageadults to engage our young
people and support them andbelieve in them until they
believe in themselves.
Principal JL (41:47):
Awesome.
I I love the the book and thepremise of it and everything
that goes along with it becausereally you're speaking to the
educators of today, you'respeaking to the people of hey,
we know this job is hard.
We know you're gonna, this isgonna be, you're gonna have some
ups and downs.
We're gonna have good times,we're gonna have not so great
(42:07):
times.
But if you choose to stay, justknow it's worth it.
If it's it's something that youimpact kids for the rest of
your life.
And some of my favorite storiesas an educator is when I get
that email, I get that Facebookmessage, I get that letter, I
get those messages from the kidsthat say, Coach Linden or
Principal JL, this is what youdid to impact my life, and I am
(42:32):
better because of it.
And thank you.
And those are the reasons why Istay in education because you
know, even though you don'tthink about it at the time,
you're impacting young lives,and you don't realize how much
you're impacting them untilyears down the road.
I'm in my 19th year ofeducation, and so I know I've
(42:52):
impacted kids, but I don't getto hear it all the time about
how I've done that, and when youdo, it's like the best feeling
in the world, and one of thereasons why I continue the work
I do, and I truly just love whatI do, and I just love what you
do as well.
So, Principal EL, we're gonnahave aspiring leaders listening
(43:13):
to this episode.
What is something that youwould like to tell somebody
that's thinking about gettinginto the principalship?
What advice would you givethem?
Principal EL (43:24):
Aspiring leaders, I'm gonna look into this camera
right now and tell you run asfast as you can, run as fast as
you can.
No, but seriously, I'm gonnasay to you, this is the best
work you could ever do.
It's not now hear me clearly,it's not easy work, but it's
good work.
It's I often say it's God'swork because these children will
(43:47):
keep you on your toes and yourknees every day, but they will
come and they will thank you.
And um, some of the I mean, Ihave some, you know, we have
some young people, they'll givean aspirin a headache, but I'm
telling you now, later on inlife, when they see you, they
will run through the mall, runthrough the supermarket,
wherever you are, and say, Youare my teacher, you are my
(44:08):
principal, they'll find you.
So, what I want to say to youis that leadership is about
service.
So, if you take on this job ofleader, know that your most
important role and duty will beto serve others.
Leadership is about service.
If you don't serve, you can'tleave.
And if you can't lead, and ifservice is beneath you,
(44:29):
leadership will be beyond you.
If you hold on to that and knowthat you are there to serve
others, now I want you tocelebrate yourself too.
Don't please don't lose ourguys.
I often say to leaders, forgiveyourself, be kind to yourself,
and celebrate yourselves.
But I also please understandthat you are there to take care
(44:51):
of others.
It's an honor and a privilegeto be chosen to take care of
others.
And and I I walk in that lightevery day.
And I say to you, you know,welcome to the profession.
Find you a mentor.
You have mentors out there withall of us.
We're out there, you know,create your network on social
media.
You mentioned earlier, Jeff,about sharing the story of your
(45:15):
school.
That's powerful.
You know, you you get find youa team and make sure you are
promoting the positive storiesabout your school, control that
narrative.
But if you want, if you're anaspiring leader, please know
that this work is hard work,it's good work.
Find you a mentor and uh anddig in because there's no other
(45:37):
job like it, and you will youwill be rewarded, you know, for
it.
So please, we welcome you.
We need you, we need you.
Principal JL (45:47):
Too bad.
Hey, I love that advice forsure.
I know a lot of people outthere that are thinking about
doing it.
Yes, it's hard work, but it'svery rewarding work as well.
Because that's where, like, forme, getting into the
principalship is how can I havea bigger impact?
And one way to do that is tobecome a principal because now
you're setting the culture,you're setting setting the
(46:10):
example, you're modeling, you'reyou're setting the culture of
your school from your seat, andyou really are working and
collaborating with everybody todo that.
And I guess that's one of thehardest parts to do, but also
the most rewarding part when yousee the successes that happen
because of those things that youdo.
Principal EL (46:30):
So and one more thing, and one more thing I
think's important that I don'twant to miss is I want them to
also embrace learning.
When you become a leadingprincipal, assistant principal,
whatever your role is, don'tthink that you can't learn
anymore.
You will learn from thosepeople in your school, you will
learn from those in your centraloffice, you will learn from
your experiences, you will learnfrom the children, you will
(46:52):
learn from the professionaldevelopment, but you're always a
learner, and once you embracethat, it's easy to deal with the
mistakes because you knowyou're always learning.
So I want to make sure I letthem know that create that
learning culture and you be thekey learner in your building.
Principal JL (47:09):
You bet.
And I love that as well.
That's something that, asprincipal, as a building
principal, I have to continue toget better because if I'm
asking my teachers to getbetter, which I'm asking my
students to get better, guesswho else has to get better?
Principal EL (47:22):
I do.
Amen.
Principal JL (47:23):
And that's what I love about this podcast because
it's free professionaldevelopment.
Yes, sir.
You know, people can get on andlisten and you know learn
something from great people likePrincipal EL here.
So, Principal EL, this has beena great conversation.
I really appreciate that timewe have here.
Do you have anything that'scoming up that's exciting for
(47:46):
you?
And you know, to end it off,how could people get connected
with you?
Principal EL (47:50):
No, I'm just uh I'm just working hard every day
in the trenches with these youngpeople and my staff and my
staff members.
If they want to find me, thenmy website is principal el.com,
principalel.com.
I'm also on social media,Facebook Principal L, Instagram,
a Dr.
Principal L.
I'm on X, uh I'm on uh LinkedInand Dr.
(48:11):
Salome Thomas EL.
So you can find me.
As a matter of fact, if one ofyour listeners finds me on
social media and lets me knowthey heard me on the show and
can send me a message repeating,stating something I said, I'm
gonna autograph a new book orsend it to them, sir.
I'm gonna autograph Principalel.com.
(48:32):
You find me and I will takecare of you because I want to
encourage you to stay in there,stay in there as a leader.
I got a couple other books,passionate leadership, they'll
read about that on my on thewebsite, Building a Winning
Team, Retention for Change, allkinds of leadership books, but I
but they all focus on the samething, and that's being able to
(48:53):
elevate others.
I want to be able to do that.
So you find me and I'm gonnasend you a book.
Principal JL (48:59):
All right.
I hope you guys hear thatchallenge, a call to action
there.
Find Principal EL and he'llautograph that book for you and
send it your way.
And so that's really awesome.
I love the challenge.
I mean, I haven't had a guestdo that yet.
Principal EL (49:11):
And so the only thing, Jeff, they have to be
listening because they've got totell you something that you and
I talked about tonight.
That's the case.
Principal JL (49:20):
Well, they won't hear it until the end of this
episode.
So hopefully they listen allthe way through.
So here we go.
All right, all right.
Hey, Principal EL, it's great.
It was an honor to have you onthe show.
I really appreciate it.
All things, Principal EL.
I'm gonna have them in the shownotes for you so it makes it
easy for them to find you.
So, you know, in the show notesso they can message you and get
(49:43):
that autograph book.
So, Principal EL, it's greathaving you.
Have a great night.
Thank you.
Principal EL (49:48):
It's a great time.
God, good, God bless you.
Good night.
Principal JL (49:51):
What a conversation with Principal EL.
I hope you guys enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
This episode was packed with alot of insights from Principal
EL and his 39 years ofexperience.
If this episode resonates withyou, please share it with
someone who needs to hear it.
Also, please subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss
(50:15):
another episode like this onewhen it drops.
Until next time, be curious and1%.
Today's guest embodies the spirit of
purpose-driven leadership ineducation.
Dr.
Salome Thomas-EL, also known tomany as Principal EL.
Principal EL has dedicated hislife to serving students and
transforming schools since 1987.
He is currently leading a K-8school in Wilmington, Delaware.
(01:21):
But his story first capturednational attention in
Philadelphia, where as a teacherand chess coach at Vaux Middle
School, his students becameeight-time national chess
champions.
He is the author ofbest-selling books I Choose to
Stay and The Immortality ofInfluence, both of which
highlight the power ofleadership, mentoring, and
(01:43):
service.
His latest work, Meet TheirNeeds and They'll Succeed,
released in April of 2025,continues that mission,
reminding educators everywherethat every child can thrive when
we lead with heart and holdhigh expectations.
Principal EL's impact extendsfar beyond his school walls.
(02:04):
He's appeared on C-SPAN, CNN,MPR, Good Morning America, and
the Oprah Radio Network.
He studied leadership abroad.
He earned his doctorate ineducational leadership from
Wilmington University and hasbeen recognized with honors,
such as the Marcus A.
Foster Award for OutstandingAdministration in Philadelphia
(02:25):
and the University ofPennsylvania's Martin Luther
King Award.
Readers Digest even named himan inspiring American icon.
From chessboards to classroom,Principal L continues to prove
that when we invest inrelationships, resilience, and
belief, kids will rise.
Now, before we get to theepisode, just so you know,
(02:48):
there's an Easter egg in thisepisode, so be paying attention.
Now let's get to ourconversation with Principal L.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother exciting episode of the
(03:10):
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I am so excited to haveDr.
Salome Thomas-EL or akaPrincipal EL on the show.
Principal EL, welcome to theshow.
Principal EL (03:23):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Principal EL here speaking toPrincipal JL.
Doesn't get any better thanthat.
Principal JL (03:31):
You bet, you bet.
Hey, Principal EL.
I'm going to go ahead and startyou off with the same question
I ask everybody on the show.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Principal EL (03:42):
What inspired me to become an educator?
Well, I'm going to be honestwith you.
When I was an undergrad incollege, I wanted to go to law
school.
I was a uh TV journalismcommunications major.
And my one of the deans in ourcommunication calls, he said,
don't be an attorney.
Make a difference, be ateacher.
But I went on and started asmall career as an assistant
(04:06):
producer on a local cable sportstelevision station in Philly.
Went to a high school to speakabout my job and TV and talk to
the kids about how you know mymind raised.
You know, eight kids, didn'thave a car.
My teachers drove me to school,picked me up.
And and the kids said to meafter the program, you know, if
if if your teachers did that foryou, how come you aren't a
(04:29):
teacher?
And that was it for me.
I walked into my TV job and Iquit and I enrolled in graduate
school, got a master's degree,and went back to the same high
school and started teachingJeff.
And it was it was right rightfrom there that I now I started
working in high school, and thehigh school kids said, you know,
we were only joking, Mr.
(04:49):
We thought you would hook us upwith a TV job when we
graduated.
You know, but I realized earlyon that uh those kids will make
you feel like you can walk onwater.
You know you found your homewhen you find your calling.
And I also realized that highschool reform does not begin in
high school.
That there are kids whostruggle in elementary middle
(05:11):
school long before they get intohigh school.
And so I uh I spent the next 10years of my life in a feeder
middle school.
And in 10 years, we lost almost20 young people to murder in
that community.
And I realized I had to find away that I could teach students
that they could choose thebehavior, but they couldn't
choose the consequences.
And that's why I started toteach chess.
(05:32):
And I know we'll probably getinto that later on, but that was
really how I got my starter inTV, talking to kids in the high
school.
How come you aren't teaching?
Started teaching and just fellin love with with the kids from
that was 39 years ago, sir.
And I'm still going.
Principal JL (05:49):
Awesome, awesome.
Hey, we appreciate you doingall the things you're doing to
impact kids uh for the last 39years.
So thank you for that.
So, principal EL, let's talkabout what subject did you teach
with that with teaching.
Is there any lessons you had asa teacher that helped you when
you became a principal down theroad?
Principal EL (06:11):
I was a math teacher and I worked, also
worked in an in-schoolsuspension program and worked
with some special educationprograms as well.
That's actually where Iinitially started my chess
program, teaching specialeducation students at
mathematics, teaching themmathematics on the chessboard.
That was an engagement beforeinformation.
(06:33):
That's something I learnedearly on.
That we had to find a way toengage students before we could
teach them anything, build thatconnection, that bridge, that
relationship, and then they'llstart buying into and getting
that confidence.
And one of, you know, one ofthe lessons I really learned
early on was that teaching thesestudents mathematics and chess
(06:55):
early on that smart is notsomething you are, it is
something you can become.
So it's not a fixed mindset.
You just have to believe thatyou know you can become
successful, that you can learnanything and creating that that
learning culture in yourclassroom and in your school.
And then the bottom line isreally that kids don't, you
(07:15):
know, Dr.
Rita Pearson made it a powerfulTED Talk years ago.
She passed away right after shetalked about every child needs
a champion, but she also saidsomething very controversial in
that TED Talk.
She said, kids don't learn frompeople they don't like.
There's some folks who disagreewith that.
And I don't think she was, Idon't think she was promoting
(07:36):
that we we need to be on a questto be liked by students.
I tell my young people all thetime, if I don't need friends,
if I want a friend, I'll get apet.
You know, I need some youngpeople that want to work hard
and and grind, but I think it'salso true that we want those
students to see themselves in usand we see ourselves in them.
(07:58):
Once that connection's made, Ithink the learning begins and
there's nothing that can stopit.
And so early on as a teacher, Irealized that instead of trying
to be that educator who justsaid, you know, no excuses, you
come in and you gotta make ithappen.
I had to think about all thoseadults who helped me, sir, who
(08:20):
didn't say no excuses, whodidn't say, you know, tie up
your shoes and get it done.
They said, no, what do youneed?
What can I do to meet yourneeds?
And that that's when I reallyshifted my career, became the
educator that tried to meet theneeds of young people.
I I tried to go where they wereand take them to where I wanted
them to go.
(08:40):
And I, you know, I end upsaying to students often that my
goal is to get you in the PennState and not the state Penn.
So let's go.
Principal JL (08:47):
There you go.
Oh wait, so you are you tellingme you're a Penn State fan?
I'm from Pennsylvania, I'm from Philly. I'man even bigger Eagles fan, you
know, because we just won theSuper Bowl.
We did a number on the KansasCity Chiefs, a great
organization, but uh, we justhad to handle our business.
But uh, yeah, so I'm a PennState fan from Pierre.
(09:09):
I went to small college ofUpstate PA near uh Penn State,
but a proud Philly guy and sucha fan of giving young people the
runway, getting them on therunway, and let them choose
whatever career path you knowthey want.
But I think it begins withengagement, with joy, learning,
(09:31):
and resilience.
And those have really been mymy keys to successful for young
people.
Awesome.
I really appreciate it.
I remember that TED talk whereshe said people don't learn from
where from people they don'tlike.
And I took away from that isbuilding that relationship with
kids is gonna help you help themlearn because if they don't
(09:52):
have a relationship with you,then forget about it, it's not
gonna happen as well becauseyou're able to, like you said,
meet the needs where they're atand help them get to where they
need to be.
And I think that's reallypowerful.
Those are some things I taughtmath as well.
So yeah, the math teacher, 11years.
So I did that all at thesecondary level when it came
(10:14):
down to it.
So let's talk about like thechess team a little bit.
What got you?
You kind of were kind ofalluding to it.
You were helping specialeducation kids learn, you know,
some math through playing chess.
And where did that start?
And you know, where did youknow it kind of ended up
becoming like nationalchampionship chess teams, right?
(10:35):
Yeah, really kind of take usthrough that story.
I would love for our listenersto to hear that story.
Principal EL (10:41):
Yeah, so you know, I'm I'm teaching these kids
mathematics on a chessboard,knights move on right angles,
bishops move on diagonals, thechessboard is a large square
that contains 64 smallersquares.
And I thought, you know, justthat I was just giving these
students mathematics on achessboard.
What I was really giving themwas intellectual capital.
(11:01):
They were now walking aroundthe school carrying chessboards.
And if you don't assumeanything else about a kid who
carries a chessboard, you assumethat they're smart or
intelligent.
So these students are walkingaround the school carrying chess
boards, and other studentswould run up to them and say,
You play chess, aren't you inthe learning disabled program?
They say, Yeah, let's play amatch and see if you should be
(11:23):
my roommate, right?
Like it humbles you.
And so these students startedbeating me, other students, all
of the kids in the school wantedto play, and it became more
popular than basketball.
And I saw the teacher said,Take them out, have them compete
against other schools,elementary and middle schools.
And so they're competing andthey're winning.
These students aren't losing amatch, and I'm worried, and the
(11:45):
teacher's like, What are youworried about?
Because I knew what was coming.
Because these students startedwinning so much, they didn't
want to practice them.
They said, Practice?
You talking about practice?
I said, You gotta come topractice like this.
That's it, we're winning.
So I said, I gotta, I gottafind a way to humble these young
people.
So we started competing againsthigh schools and they started
(12:08):
losing, and that's what Iwanted.
Because you learn more fromlosing, sir, than you do from
winning at any level.
Amateur, professional,basketball, football, baseball,
it doesn't matter.
You will study those tapes whenyou lose.
And uh lose, lose, lose, andthen they beat central high
school chess team.
These are elementary middleschool students.
Central high school inPhiladelphia is one of the
(12:31):
oldest high schools in thenation.
And and I said, Wow, if weraise the bar for these young
people, they'll rise to ourlevel of expectation.
So I took them out to competeat the U.S.
amateur chess championship,over 220 teams, larger than the
Olympics, no age limit.
They won first place, defeateda team from Bucknell University,
(12:51):
defeated a team of four menwhose combined age was over 200
years, never done before in U.S.
chess history.
And then uh went to Knoxville,Tennessee later that year in
1997, won a nationalchampionship.
Arnold Schwarz nigga came tovisit our school in the fall.
He wanted to run for governorpresident, challenged one of my
young ladies to chess, and Isaid, Arnold, don't fool with
(13:14):
these girls.
They treat these chess pieceslike offspring.
They'll play hours and nevertrade a piece.
A piece, he said, no, I want toplay her.
I said, Arnold, you don't wantto play Denise.
She's one of the top 50 femalechess players in the nation in
the AIDS division.
She's also in church everyWednesday, Friday, and Sunday,
Arnold.
You won't beat her.
He said, No, I want to.
And Denise said, I'll play him,Miss L.
(13:36):
He's rich, he's famous.
He's married to a woman who hasmore money than he does.
So I know he's upset.
I said, Who taught you that?
And she said she checked me.
She said, I checkmate him, Itreat him just like he was
another guy.
Arnold said, You terminated theterminator.
And then he wrote a check forour program for $20,000.
We've never asked our schooldistrict for a dime.
(13:58):
We were from a very poor schooldistrict.
These students traveled toPortland, Oregon, Seattle,
Arizona, Florida, Yugoslavia,compete against the national
team.
It was just an amazingexperience for these young
people.
But what I was most proud of,sir, was that these students
also were graduated from TempleLaw School, University of
Virginia, Cornell University,Penn State, Temple University,
(14:20):
Howard University, you know,Delaware State, Morgan State
Bowie State, just it was HamptonUniversity.
It was just so amazing to seethese students realize their
dreams through school andthrough chess.
And it was the travel, theexposure that many of them
talked about was a realspringboard and a lifesaver.
You know, for them, chess Iwould tell people was the great
(14:43):
equalizer.
Because when you sit acrossthat board, it doesn't matter
how old that opponent is.
Some of these young people,some of these chess masters,
sir, are eight, nine, ten yearsold.
And they defeat team, theyteach defeat men 30, 40, 50
years old.
Young females can defeat anadult male.
It's the equalizer.
(15:04):
No, it's my brain against yourbrain.
And it became it became my mymagic wand.
And I I've been using it everyday, ever since, because it's a
way for me to connect and buildrelationships with young people,
but it's also a way for me tochallenge them beyond the norm
and something that's academic,you know, for for our young
(15:27):
people.
So it's been great.
My school in Wilmington,Delaware, they're two-time
national chess champions, theonly school in Delaware that
ever win a national title.
So it's been a great run and agreat ride.
And I'm just glad that thestudents have embraced this
concept of chess, criticalthinking, problem solving,
reasoning, patience.
(15:47):
It's just um, it's just anamazing opportunity for them to
uh to really improve.
Uh and these are skills thatquite often will never get
tested on the state test, butmost employers tell you are most
important to the success ofemployees, self-regulation,
discipline, you know,friendship, kindness, problem
(16:08):
solving, critical thinking,analyzing.
These are all skills that youngpeople and adults need and will
need for the remainder of theirlives.
Principal JL (16:17):
Yeah, I totally agree with you on that.
100% being in public education.
I'm in Nebraska and publiceducation, Nebraska is pretty
decent.
I mean, it's not bad.
And that's one of the things wetalk about is like, hey, how
are we challenging our kids?
How are we raising the barform?
How are we holding themaccountable?
Where are our expectations?
But also how are we helpingthem craft?
(16:38):
How are we helping them gainskills they need to have so they
can become employable whenthey're done?
Because in a high schoolsetting for me, I'm getting them
ready to go out into theworking world.
And you're right, you talkabout building a foundation at
(17:09):
that elementary and middleschool.
And if they don't have it, thenthe high school is trying to
fill those gaps.
And so I see the importance ofa strong foundation at that
elementary level as well as thatmiddle school level.
So by the time they get to thehigh school, you know, they can
maybe even achieve more thanthey would have if they would
have had, you know, with thefoundation that was built.
(17:31):
So I appreciate you know thethings that you do at that
elementary level and that middleschool level to help those kids
build that foundation becauseit helps us high schoolers,
principals a lot when you guysdo that.
So I appreciate that.
So, you know, with this successas a teacher and a chess coach,
what was it that inspired youto become a principal, to take
(17:53):
that next step into leadership?
Was it a tap on the shoulder?
Was it, you know, just you knewit was time?
What was it that inspired youto take the next step and become
a principal?
Principal EL (18:06):
It was a multitude of things.
One of the issues for me wasteaching chess in the elementary
and middle in a and teachingchess in the middle school, is I
wanted to be able to teachstudents chess at an earlier
age.
And I wanted to be able toteach all the students.
So I said, I want to become aprincipal so I can have all the
(18:26):
students, require all thestudents to learn chess.
But also, you know, I had anassistant superintendent who
tapped me and said, Hey, you'reready.
Now I had a principal who toldme I wasn't ready.
And my assistant superintendentsaid, Listen, your principal is
gonna tell you that for therest of your life because he
doesn't want you to leave.
Um, he wants you to stay thereand help run that school.
(18:48):
He said, But you're ready.
And I think uh these studentsand teachers are missing out on
an opportunity if you don't, ifyou don't take a job.
So, and when I was assistantprincipal, I became an assistant
principal at the school where Iwas teaching.
I talk about this in my firstbook, I choose to stay, how the
superintendent, the chief ofstaff called and wanted to move
(19:12):
me to a nearby middle school inthe middle of school year.
It was a Friday, and theywanted me to report on Monday as
an I was a teacher at the time,I'm sorry, and they wanted to
promote me to assistantprincipal, and I turned it down.
And this chief of staff said,Why are you turning it down?
It's a big $20,000 raise.
And I said, I talk to thesekids all the time about how it's
(19:34):
not about the money.
And if they came in on Mondayand I wasn't here, they would
know that I left for the money.
So it's not that I don't wantto become an administrator.
I love the school district.
You'll probably never offer mea job again, but I just can't
leave these kids in the middleof the year.
I'm one of the few male rolemodels they have, and I just
gotta stand on my word.
(19:55):
And um, and I'll be.
And that's how the whole IChoose to stay movement got
started.
As a matter of fact, my book, Ichoose to stay, starts out.
The first chapter starts outwith that story.
And my principal's upset withme because how could you try to
leave me?
I said, I didn't try to leave.
They recruited me, but I turnedit down.
And and and the suit, and thechief of staff said, No, she
(20:17):
said, I think once otherprincipals hear why you're
turning this job down, most ofthem will want, they're gonna
want you to work for them.
So I admire you for you knowyour decision.
And um, and I became anassistant principal at the
school where I was, you know, ayear later.
But but I just had to, it was atough decision because my
family, we needed the money.
Just me moving up could haveopened a position for someone
(20:40):
else.
But just at the time, I justneeded to send a message to
those young people that I said Iwould be here for you and money
wouldn't take me away.
And um, and when I be, when Istarted, when the chess program
became when we won a nationalchampionship, I started getting
six-figure offers to move tosuburban districts.
A teacher became anadministrator, and I turned it
(21:02):
down because I wanted to stay inthe inner city with the young
people, the same community whereI grew up without a dad, those
teachers there, many of themdidn't look like me.
They were young, white femalesand uh African-American female
teachers who took me under theirwing, looked out for me.
There were some male rolemodels, but it just was so many
(21:22):
more women in our profession.
And so I felt like I owed it tothem to make that same.
They chose to stay for me, sir.
And so I wanted to make thatsame decision uh for them.
But that's what led me to wantto become a leader so I could
impact others' young people, butI could have a stronger impact
on teachers, you know, as well,and maybe start a whole I choose
(21:45):
to stay movement, you know,with a school, you know, full of
teachers.
So that's really what inspiredme.
A younger student to teach somechess because the 85% of the
brain is developed before theyever walk into a school, you
know, pre-K, kindergarten, firstgrade, you know, most of the
brain is developed.
We can't wait until middleschool and high school to teach
(22:05):
students critical thinkingskills.
We got to get them early.
So that's I wanted that's why Iwanted to start early, but I
also wanted a bigger impact aswell.
Principal JL (22:15):
Yeah, awesome.
How many years were youassistant principal before you
moved into the principalship?
Principal EL (22:19):
Just two years, and my uh assistant super tapped
me and said, Listen, I got aschool.
It's a turnaround, it's aturnaround, but it was one block
from my middle school, so Icould run my elementary program
and my middle school chessprogram at the same time.
So it was a win-win for me.
Principal JL (22:37):
Oh, that's awesome.
So you kind of alluded to thebook, I choose to stay.
I I'll go ahead and we'll goahead and talk about it right
now.
What do you want people to takeaway from that book?
I choose to stay.
What is it that you want peopleto really know about that book?
Principal EL (22:56):
That book was really, it was my life story,
and and I remember, and and umthe book was published in 2003.
And I remember around 2000,2001, we were shopping it around
to publishers, and nopublishers would bite on it.
They they just said teacherswouldn't read about other
teachers, and you know, just it,and then just a story about an
educator just wasn'tinteresting.
(23:18):
And uh, but then I had one NewYork publisher said, We're gonna
make it our lead hardcovertitle.
And you know, John Grisham'sfirst book wasn't even in
hardcover.
And they said, We're gonna makeit our lead hardcover title
because we just believe in thestory and the power of
educators.
Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote theforward in the book.
As soon as the book waspublished, Disney optioned the
(23:39):
movie rights, 50,000 copies inprint, you know, with almost
little to no uh promotion.
And it was just all teachersand administrators out there
supporting me, supporting thestory, the message of I choose
to stay.
And it was really about meturning down those jobs, making
that choice to stay.
It's a choice we all make, nomatter where we are.
(24:00):
It's a choice we make to bethere for those young people,
for those adults who are savingprivate Ryan every day.
And so they did it for me.
And I turned around and I said,I'm gonna do it for them.
And I'm hoping to inspire awhole nation of educators to
make that choice.
And if you don't choose tostay, that's great too.
(24:20):
Because guess what?
The time that you did give theyoung people, they're much
better off for it.
Everybody can't stay 10, 20, 30years like us, sir.
But those who do, God blessyou.
But those who don't, you youchose to serve for some period
of your life.
And if we could get everybodyto just do that, I think we'd be
much better off in in uh inpublic education.
(24:43):
And also, I choose to stay endswith a story.
One of my former chess players,a young man, Otis Bullock, a
struggling family, graduatedhigh school, went to college,
and called me up his senioryear.
And he said, Listen, it'sFriday and I'm graduating on
Sunday, and I don't want you tocome.
Principal L.
He said, But I need one favor.
I need you to let everyteacher, every teacher that you
(25:06):
know, let them know that one oftheir kids made it and tell them
that I said, Thank you.
And I said, Otis, you don'tunderstand.
I need to come to yourgraduation.
I've been to too many funerals,I need to go to more
graduations.
He said, No, don't come.
But let them know.
I said, Thank you.
I called every teacher I could,Jeff, and I said, We dangle, we
need to dangle the academiccare for these children.
(25:28):
We close our schools down whenthey win the state football
championship.
We've got to support theseyoung people.
And they showed up, and thatyoung man, when he graduated,
100-degree heat, people passingout in the heat.
We took pictures of him withhis friends, with people he
didn't even know.
We were so happy to see one ofour kids make it.
That was in June of 2000, andhe shared with us that some of
(25:50):
his friends, some family, didn'tcome to graduation.
I said, look in the audience.
Every teacher I could find, Icalled, and they came out.
And in May 2004, that young mangraduated from Temple Law
School.
It was the proudest moment, youknow, of my life.
I said, This is the reason whyI chose to stay.
This is why I wrote that book.
Because I wanted that young manto uh to know that we supported
(26:13):
him, and I wanted some otheryoung person to know that that I
need to make that decision andbecome a teacher and do the same
thing, you know, for somebodyelse.
So that's really what I chooseto stay is about.
It's about just the work ofteachers and administrators out
here who are making adifference.
We go and recognize.
And my story is not about oneexceptional educator leader.
(26:35):
There are thousands andthousands of them out there
every day.
You know, you're on the frontlines, you see what these
teachers are doing, andespecially at the high school
level, because you know, I canimagine what it's like with you
know I have 13 and 14 years old.
I can imagine 15, 16, 17.
You know, that's gotta be anadventure.
But you know, but you're stilldoing the work, you're still a
(26:56):
blesser and not a stressor foryoung people.
And um, and that's really whatI wanted that book to do.
And and here I am, six books.
I'm on book number six now, wasjust published a few months
ago.
Proud and honored that I wasable to sort of spearhead and be
a part of the movement torecognize and thank these
(27:17):
teachers and leaders out herewho are making that choice to
stay.
Because these are somechallenging times, sir, as you
know, very challenging times foreducators, but they make that
choice and show up every day forour young people.
Principal JL (27:30):
You bet.
Yeah, you're no, no joke, it isa challenging time, especially
in public education, where youknow you kind of hear all the
negativity out there in the inthe media, and you're just like,
and I'm sitting here at homegoing like, really?
Like it's not that bad, it'snot as bad as you guys make it
out to be.
I want to like call up the newsstations and be like, dude,
(27:50):
knock it off.
Like, you're not helping us,you're not helping us at all.
And it just drives me nuts thatthey would say all these
negative things about publiceducation.
But when it comes down to it,that's why you know, for the
high school, we are reallystrong about you know, sharing
our narrative, what's going on?
What are the great things thatare happening at our school and
(28:11):
sharing it out on social media,letting our parents know our
community knows so they canrally behind it.
So when there is a negativething about the school, we have
all these positive things thatwe can we can talk about and
say, you know what, for the mostpart, 95%, 99% of the time,
we're doing great things at thisschool.
And so you want to be able toshare your story as a as a
(28:34):
principal as a school.
And I have a great social mediateam that does that.
So that's something we reallyfocus on because we know and
hear the narratives out thereabout public education, and
that's our way to kind ofequalize that as well.
So you've been a principal fora while, you know, been 39 years
in education, you know,teacher, assistant principal,
principal.
(28:54):
There's a lot of proud momentsfor you.
Is there one that sticks outthe most?
You know, as a principal, isthere something that
accomplishment that you're mostproud of, or are they all, you
know, proud of all of them thesame?
Principal EL (29:10):
There are just so many.
You know, I won principal ayear in Philadelphia, and I was
awarded, I was given the awardby my former high school teacher
and principal, who was then thesuperintendent of the school
district.
So my former teacher was nowthe superintendent, and she was
giving her former student theaward as the top principal in
(29:33):
the district.
So that was a great honor forme.
I was also selected in 2006 byPhiladelphia Magazine, uh, which
is the largest magazine youknow in the city as the best
Philadelphian.
So they do this top restaurantsin Philly, top doctors, top
lawyers, but they pick oneperson in the city as like the
best person that representsPhiladelphia.
(29:54):
In 2006, I was a Prince MiddleSchool principal there, and they
selected little old me as thebest Philadelphian.
And um at the time, I just wentto spend the weekend with Will
Smith because we were trying toget Will to play me in the movie
when Disney bought the movieright, so I choose to stay.
And uh and word had gottenaround the city that you know
I've been hanging out with WillSmith in LA and that kind of
(30:16):
thing.
Because Will, you know, Will'sa Philly guy too.
But uh there have just been somany moments, you know, going to
the graduation and seeing thosekids graduate, you know, you
know, walking into differentplaces and seeing kids, you
know, working.
It just lets you know thatlisten, I planted it, I planted
a tree whose shade I may neverenjoy.
(30:37):
And for that reason, I'm abetter person.
And I know world, the world's,you know, a better place.
So it's a great feeling to beable to see those young people.
Meeting amazing people onsocial media like you, you know,
and then being able to see youin conferences and things like
that.
I think that's another likehighlight, proud moment for me
(30:57):
when I get to meet people that Imeet, educators, you know, on
social media and get to meetthem, you know, on the screen or
you know, in person.
Those are proud moments, youknow, as well.
And then of course, with mychess teams are winning national
titles, you know, it's it's agreat, great feeling to see
those students, you know.
Make those accomplishmentsbecause many times often they
(31:19):
doubt themselves.
You know, I think that was onething that surprised me is how
many young people just lack thatconfidence in believing that
they are enough.
So, as educators, you know, wethat's a role we fill in just
letting young people know,building them up, lifting up,
elevating them to understandthat you know they are enough,
that they can be powerful, theycan be great, they can be
(31:41):
successful, and they don't havethey don't have to wait until
later to be greater.
You can be great right now,today.
Just keep working hard, youknow, and keep pushing.
So I've been principal for 25years, sir.
And it has been a long andarduous journey for me, but it's
one I don't regret at all.
And I tell people all the timethat as a principal, we bring
(32:04):
the joy to school.
And there's no other job whereyou walk into the building and
everybody wants your attention,everybody calls your name,
everybody just needs a moment.
You got a minute, you got aminute, because you have become
that person.
You you create that culturewhere they know you care and
they know that you'll doeverything you can to try to
help solve any issue you knowthey have.
(32:27):
So it's it's been an honor, youknow, and a blessing, and to be
on this journey with you.
And you know, sometimes we textand email and share some of the
things we have going on in ourschools.
It's just great to have thatconnection with other principals
and other leaders in thecountry as well.
Principal JL (32:42):
Yeah, I really appreciate all the people that
I've connected with on thisjourney of really taking my
podcast to the next level.
And it's something I reallystarted dedicating myself
December of last year.
And I've just met so manydifferent people from all walks
of life, from all over thecountry, and I've learned
something from every singleguest that's been on this show
(33:05):
that I can actually go, you knowwhat?
That's a great idea.
Maybe that's something I canapply at the position I'm at as
a principal.
And so let's talk about youknow, one of those things that
you talk about school success,you talk about the four C's.
What is the four C's and howcan that impact schools?
Principal EL (33:24):
Yeah, those four C's, I've been talking about the
four C's for years, and theyactually are the foundation for
my new book, Meet Their Needs,and and they'll succeed.
And and I I believe that you'recrazy about kids, curious about
their lives outside of school,uh, consistent adults in their
lives, and then a culture oflove and joy and support.
(33:46):
And that first C being crazyabout kids, that's just the
connection.
That's that's the relationship.
That's that's that kids don'tlearn from people they don't
like.
You know, that's that C whereit's like, hey, what do you
need?
The guy.
I'm the one that's gonna makeit happen for you.
Now, I'm gonna make it hard onyou now, so it's easy on you
later in life.
(34:07):
So it's not gonna be easy, butI'm gonna support you.
I have high expectations foryou, but I'm gonna support you
and be there for you.
That curiosity is importantbecause curiosity is the key to
learning.
So curious about their livesoutside of school.
That's that culturallycompetent educator, that
trauma-informed educator thatwants to know about that
(34:29):
student.
Where do you come from?
What's your culture?
What's your family like?
Like, what do you do?
What are your interests?
Because I'm going to design mylessons in class, and my
school's gonna be designed sothat you're interested and
engaged in school on a dailybasis.
And then we have thatconsistency, right?
Because that curiosity isimportant because you know the
(34:52):
impact of an educator is notbased on the ability, our
ability to teach, but rather ourability to learn and be
curious.
But then we've got to beconsistent with that because
those students lack thatoftentimes in their lives.
So they don't need to be in aschool with it principal after
principal after principal,teacher after teacher after
teacher in the same classroom inone year.
(35:14):
They need to see the sameadults there for them.
And then we need to beconsistent in how we support
them, how we discipline them,how we love them, um, how we
communicate with them, becausethat gives them that sense of
security, that safety, thatpredictability is important.
And then lastly, that culture,that positive school culture,
(35:39):
that love, that lifting them up,that empowering those young
people, creating that agency forthem so they can advocate for
themselves and one another, butalso so they develop that
empathy and understanding andkindness.
And that's the kind of culture,that's that joyful and
resilient school culture ouryoung people need.
(36:01):
And and those four C's are thefoundation, really, you know, of
my book.
Everything is rooted in how arewe connecting with those young
people, being creative andcurious for them, consistent
with them, and then that culturewhere those students are
knocking the door down to get ininstead of knocking the door
(36:22):
down to get out.
Principal JL (36:24):
Awesome.
I really love that.
The four C's.
I when I was reading through itand learning about it, I'm like
going, yeah, this makes sense.
This is something thatresonates, and this doesn't
matter where you're at.
Like, if you're in a publiceducation, you use these four
C's, they will help youtransform your school.
So I really appreciate yousharing the four C's with us
(36:45):
today.
So let's talk about a littlebit of your new book.
You kind of alluded to it alittle bit, meet their needs and
they'll succeed.
Really, what do you want peopleto take away from this book
when they read it?
This is your new one, onethat's been out for about what,
six months or so?
So about six months or so.
So, what what's the bigtakeaway you want people to get
(37:06):
from this book?
Principal EL (37:08):
I want I wrote this book because I really
wanted teachers, leaders,parents, community members.
I wanted them to see that ourstudents can be successful when
the right adult makes thatchoice to stay in their lives.
And and and in the book, I openup the book with the story
(37:30):
because you know, a few yearsago on Father's Day, I'm sitting
in the hospital, right?
Not at home eating dinner withmy family.
I'm in a hospital getting anemergency appendectomy.
And I'm in the hospital, andthese nurses are caring, then
they're waking me up every twohours with medication, you know,
just checking on me andwhatnot, checking my vitals, but
(37:52):
they're caring for me.
And I said to myself, Wow, thisis what every kid needs.
Here I am in a hospital makingan association with what we need
in schools, because every childneeds like someone who's like a
nurse who can just care.
Now, those now, my night nursewas amazing.
That nurse during the day, shewas a little rough with me.
(38:15):
So I said, you know, thatthat's an issue that these
because these young people thatgo from teacher to teacher to
teacher, everyone won't be thesame.
Some will be like my nightnurse, some will be like my
nurse in the daytime.
But one of the things I tooknote of that every one of those
nurses could close that curtain,Jeff, and just work with me.
Our teachers can't do that,they've got to treat their
(38:36):
patients in front of all of theother patients in the classroom.
So that's why teachers have tobe so creative and down there.
There's so many demands andstresses on them on a daily
basis.
So, as a principal, imaginetrying to support somebody who
has to, you know, do so well onso many different levels.
But I just said that this thatinspired me to write the book.
(38:59):
That I've I'm gonna write abook just talking about how
meeting the needs, meeting theneeds of these young people has
to be paramount for us asteachers and leaders.
And so I talk about the fourC's, I talk about you know, just
the trauma in the lives ofyoung people that carrying these
backpacks with so much in itthat we never see.
They may never share with us.
(39:19):
And uh, and each chapter beginswith a story.
You know, in my trauma chapter,I talk about this kid Bones
Highland, who, you know, was atough kid, struggled in uh in
our school and good basketballplayer.
Um, had a fire in high school,had to jump out of the window,
shattered his knee.
Doctors told him he'd neverplay ball again.
He came back, rehabbed himself,scored 50 points in three
(39:41):
straight high school games.
None of the college hasrecruited him because he he he
was injured.
So he went to VCU player of theyear.
(40:31):
Denver Nuggets drafted him.
The Lakers didn't draft andthey passed him over.
He scored 27 points on LeBronJames.
You know, and I'm like, this iswhat our kids can do.
We just gotta support them, wegotta believe in them.
And I've got a great chapter onjoyful, engaging, and
challenging classrooms, and oneon critical thinking, and one on
community support and afterschool programs because that's a
(40:54):
pillar that we don't often talkabout, how important those
after-school programs are, butalso those community partners.
And then I close the book outwith choosing to stay.
Like, how can we supporteducators in making that choice?
And I think I really wrote thatchapter in the book to inspire
(41:15):
just one educator to just say, Ican continue to do this.
There's some young person thatwants to become a teacher, and
if I keep going, they might makethat decision to to uh to do
that.
So the book is filled with, youknow, I got some of my jokes,
my rhymes in there, got somegreat stories, but it's really
(41:35):
all about trying to encourageadults to engage our young
people and support them andbelieve in them until they
believe in themselves.
Principal JL (41:47):
Awesome.
I I love the the book and thepremise of it and everything
that goes along with it becausereally you're speaking to the
educators of today, you'respeaking to the people of hey,
we know this job is hard.
We know you're gonna, this isgonna be, you're gonna have some
ups and downs.
We're gonna have good times,we're gonna have not so great
(42:07):
times.
But if you choose to stay, justknow it's worth it.
If it's it's something that youimpact kids for the rest of
your life.
And some of my favorite storiesas an educator is when I get
that email, I get that Facebookmessage, I get that letter, I
get those messages from the kidsthat say, Coach Linden or
Principal JL, this is what youdid to impact my life, and I am
(42:32):
better because of it.
And thank you.
And those are the reasons why Istay in education because you
know, even though you don'tthink about it at the time,
you're impacting young lives,and you don't realize how much
you're impacting them untilyears down the road.
I'm in my 19th year ofeducation, and so I know I've
(42:52):
impacted kids, but I don't getto hear it all the time about
how I've done that, and when youdo, it's like the best feeling
in the world, and one of thereasons why I continue the work
I do, and I truly just love whatI do, and I just love what you
do as well.
So, Principal EL, we're gonnahave aspiring leaders listening
(43:13):
to this episode.
What is something that youwould like to tell somebody
that's thinking about gettinginto the principalship?
What advice would you givethem?
Principal EL (43:24):
Aspiring leaders, I'm gonna look into this camera
right now and tell you run asfast as you can, run as fast as
you can.
No, but seriously, I'm gonnasay to you, this is the best
work you could ever do.
It's not now hear me clearly,it's not easy work, but it's
good work.
It's I often say it's God'swork because these children will
(43:47):
keep you on your toes and yourknees every day, but they will
come and they will thank you.
And um, some of the I mean, Ihave some, you know, we have
some young people, they'll givean aspirin a headache, but I'm
telling you now, later on inlife, when they see you, they
will run through the mall, runthrough the supermarket,
wherever you are, and say, Youare my teacher, you are my
(44:08):
principal, they'll find you.
So, what I want to say to youis that leadership is about
service.
So, if you take on this job ofleader, know that your most
important role and duty will beto serve others.
Leadership is about service.
If you don't serve, you can'tleave.
And if you can't lead, and ifservice is beneath you,
(44:29):
leadership will be beyond you.
If you hold on to that and knowthat you are there to serve
others, now I want you tocelebrate yourself too.
Don't please don't lose ourguys.
I often say to leaders, forgiveyourself, be kind to yourself,
and celebrate yourselves.
But I also please understandthat you are there to take care
(44:51):
of others.
It's an honor and a privilegeto be chosen to take care of
others.
And and I I walk in that lightevery day.
And I say to you, you know,welcome to the profession.
Find you a mentor.
You have mentors out there withall of us.
We're out there, you know,create your network on social
media.
You mentioned earlier, Jeff,about sharing the story of your
(45:15):
school.
That's powerful.
You know, you you get find youa team and make sure you are
promoting the positive storiesabout your school, control that
narrative.
But if you want, if you're anaspiring leader, please know
that this work is hard work,it's good work.
Find you a mentor and uh anddig in because there's no other
(45:37):
job like it, and you will youwill be rewarded, you know, for
it.
So please, we welcome you.
We need you, we need you.
Principal JL (45:47):
Too bad.
Hey, I love that advice forsure.
I know a lot of people outthere that are thinking about
doing it.
Yes, it's hard work, but it'svery rewarding work as well.
Because that's where, like, forme, getting into the
principalship is how can I havea bigger impact?
And one way to do that is tobecome a principal because now
you're setting the culture,you're setting setting the
(46:10):
example, you're modeling, you'reyou're setting the culture of
your school from your seat, andyou really are working and
collaborating with everybody todo that.
And I guess that's one of thehardest parts to do, but also
the most rewarding part when yousee the successes that happen
because of those things that youdo.
Principal EL (46:30):
So and one more thing, and one more thing I
think's important that I don'twant to miss is I want them to
also embrace learning.
When you become a leadingprincipal, assistant principal,
whatever your role is, don'tthink that you can't learn
anymore.
You will learn from thosepeople in your school, you will
learn from those in your centraloffice, you will learn from
your experiences, you will learnfrom the children, you will
(46:52):
learn from the professionaldevelopment, but you're always a
learner, and once you embracethat, it's easy to deal with the
mistakes because you knowyou're always learning.
So I want to make sure I letthem know that create that
learning culture and you be thekey learner in your building.
Principal JL (47:09):
You bet.
And I love that as well.
That's something that, asprincipal, as a building
principal, I have to continue toget better because if I'm
asking my teachers to getbetter, which I'm asking my
students to get better, guesswho else has to get better?
Principal EL (47:22):
I do.
Amen.
Principal JL (47:23):
And that's what I love about this podcast because
it's free professionaldevelopment.
Yes, sir.
You know, people can get on andlisten and you know learn
something from great people likePrincipal EL here.
So, Principal EL, this has beena great conversation.
I really appreciate that timewe have here.
Do you have anything that'scoming up that's exciting for
(47:46):
you?
And you know, to end it off,how could people get connected
with you?
Principal EL (47:50):
No, I'm just uh I'm just working hard every day
in the trenches with these youngpeople and my staff and my
staff members.
If they want to find me, thenmy website is principal el.com,
principalel.com.
I'm also on social media,Facebook Principal L, Instagram,
a Dr.
Principal L.
I'm on X, uh I'm on uh LinkedInand Dr.
(48:11):
Salome Thomas EL.
So you can find me.
As a matter of fact, if one ofyour listeners finds me on
social media and lets me knowthey heard me on the show and
can send me a message repeating,stating something I said, I'm
gonna autograph a new book orsend it to them, sir.
I'm gonna autograph Principalel.com.
(48:32):
You find me and I will takecare of you because I want to
encourage you to stay in there,stay in there as a leader.
I got a couple other books,passionate leadership, they'll
read about that on my on thewebsite, Building a Winning
Team, Retention for Change, allkinds of leadership books, but I
but they all focus on the samething, and that's being able to
(48:53):
elevate others.
I want to be able to do that.
So you find me and I'm gonnasend you a book.
Principal JL (48:59):
All right.
I hope you guys hear thatchallenge, a call to action
there.
Find Principal EL and he'llautograph that book for you and
send it your way.
And so that's really awesome.
I love the challenge.
I mean, I haven't had a guestdo that yet.
Principal EL (49:11):
And so the only thing, Jeff, they have to be
listening because they've got totell you something that you and
I talked about tonight.
That's the case.
Principal JL (49:20):
Well, they won't hear it until the end of this
episode.
So hopefully they listen allthe way through.
So here we go.
All right, all right.
Hey, Principal EL, it's great.
It was an honor to have you onthe show.
I really appreciate it.
All things, Principal EL.
I'm gonna have them in the shownotes for you so it makes it
easy for them to find you.
So, you know, in the show notesso they can message you and get
(49:43):
that autograph book.
So, Principal EL, it's greathaving you.
Have a great night.
Thank you.
Principal EL (49:48):
It's a great time.
God, good, God bless you.
Good night.
Principal JL (49:51):
What a conversation with Principal EL.
I hope you guys enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
This episode was packed with alot of insights from Principal
EL and his 39 years ofexperience.
If this episode resonates withyou, please share it with
someone who needs to hear it.
Also, please subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss
(50:15):
another episode like this onewhen it drops.
Until next time, be curious and1%.
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