December 15, 2025 • 40 mins
What if the most powerful leaders in a school aren’t the ones with the titles? We sit down with Dr. Chris Jochum department chair, coach, and author of You Don’t Have To Leave To Lead, to unpack how everyday teachers can move culture, improve learning, and lift colleagues without stepping out of the classroom.
Chris traces his journey from rural roots and language classrooms to higher education, highlighting mentors who asked bigger questions at pivotal moments. We break down the research connecting teacher leadership to student achievement, morale, and retention, then translate it into concrete practices: craft a clear personal mission, align core values to daily actions, navigate conflict with calm, and use small, compounding habits to build a resilient culture. You’ll hear why shared leadership outperforms command-and-control, and how a coaching mindset, support, feedback, and trust frees teachers to take smart risks.
For Principals and APs, Chris lays out practical moves you can implement this week. Know your roster so you can align strengths and goals. Run stay interviews to get ahead of attrition. Celebrate small wins, coach privately, and make data human by pairing outcomes with experience. For teachers weighing their next step, we explore the bell curve test: are you one tough day from quitting or ready to serve at a larger scale? Either way, a personal leadership mission can anchor your choices and multiply your impact.
If you care about teacher retention, school culture, and student success, this conversation offers a clear playbook. Listen, take one habit into practice tomorrow, and watch the 1% gains add up. If the ideas resonate, follow Chris at cjleadership.com, share this episode with a colleague, and leave a quick review so others can find the show.
Connect with Dr. Chris Jochum:
email: chris@cjleadership.com
Dr. Chris Jochum's Books:
You Don't Have to Leave to Lead: A Practical Guide to Teacher Leadership (Amazon)
The Department Chair: A Practical Guide to Effective Leadership (Amazon)
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Click Here to Connect with Principal JL:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Principal JL (01:59):
Have you thought about leaving the classroom to
step into a leadership role?
Well, today's guest says youdon't have to leave to leave.
Today we welcome in Dr.
Chris Jochum.
He is the founder and CEO of CJLeadership Solutions, and a
trusted speaker, trainer, coach,and thought leader.
(02:19):
He is currently the chair ofthe Department of Teacher
Education at Fort Hayes StateUniversity.
He's also the author of twopowerful books.
The Department Chair, apractical guide to effective
leadership.
And his newest release, YouDon't Have to Leave to Lead, a
Practical Guide to TeacherLeadership.
(02:39):
Chris has spent almost threedecades in the K-12 in higher
education, empowering people tolead from where they are.
And today we get to unpack thatleadership journey.
Where it began, what shaped it,and what he's doing now to
strengthen schools andorganizations everywhere.
Now let's get into theconversation with Dr.
(03:02):
Chris Jochum.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother episode of the
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I have Dr.
Chris Jochum in the house.
(03:22):
Chris, welcome to the show.
Hey, thank you.
Excited to be here.
All right, I'm going to goahead and I'm going to start you
off like I do every guest onthis show and ask you this one
question.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Dr. Chris Jochum (03:38):
Well, I assume that this is very common,
certainly when you askeducators.
And when you say educator, Ithink of what got me into K-12.
And, you know, you and I, Ithink we have a lot in common in
terms of our home state andeven having a rural upbringing.
And what really inspired mewere the wonderful teachers and
(04:00):
coaches that I had growing up.
You know, in a small town wheremaybe the most people that have
a college education areprobably working at the school.
And again, I'm not saying I wasalways the best student.
They I probably challenged themat times, but just having
really good teachers and mentorsis what inspired me, probably
(04:23):
at an early age, to start atleast considering being a
teacher.
Principal JL (04:27):
There you go.
So what inspired you to getinto you know teaching Spanish
and English as a second languageas a teacher when you got into
that role?
Dr. Chris Jochum (04:38):
Yeah, well, you know, I picked my profession
first and my my subject second.
And I was a high school teacherbecause I probably didn't, I
wasn't good enough to teachelementary and kindergarten.
Those folks, you know, there'sa special place in heaven for
those folks.
But, you know, it I go back,Jeff, to uh many, many years ago
(05:01):
in my small rural Nebraskacommunity, we would usually have
one or two foreign exchangestudents a year.
And the year that I was takinghigh school Spanish coincided
with us having an exchangestudent in my class.
She was from Japan.
And I thought it was so coolthat someone my age could learn
(05:21):
another language, go to anothercountry.
And, you know, and sometimes,as I joke, Spanish class was one
of the few classes.
I think I made it through allschool year without having to go
to the office at least once.
So I was good at it.
And, you know, I go back 30plus years ago to when that
happened, and that reallyplanted the seed for me to not
(05:43):
only be a teacher, but to serveas an educator through foreign
language and helping othersthrough whether it's English as
a second language or being ahigh school Spanish teacher,
which you know turned into incollege my ability and my love
of study abroad and reallyopened it up.
So I go back to that influence.
(06:03):
I think I was a sophomore inhigh school, and that's what
really got me started on ESLforeign language and bilingual
education.
Principal JL (06:11):
All right.
So during that time as ateacher, is there a story or
something that you learned as ateacher that helped you into
your leadership that you havetoday?
Dr. Chris Jochum (06:23):
Wow.
Yeah, there are many instances.
I think when people ask meabout leadership journey, again,
I've been fortunate to have hadgreat role models as teachers,
coaches.
I think as people like you andothers, I tended to have some
leadership leanings, you know,early on.
You know, there was a few yearsI was the class president or
(06:46):
things like that.
Uh but I think overall seeingthe effect of family members and
friends, so whether they're ineducation or not, but I always
like to remind people thatleaders really do make all the
difference.
Leaders can be the reason thatsomebody either buys a house or
(07:09):
sells a house, that they eitherpack a U-Haul or unpack a
U-Haul.
And so I would just say,overall, what really got me
focused on how can I be a betterleader and how can I help
others lead is that realizationthat the best way to improve an
organization is to improve andaffect the leader.
And leaders affect everyone.
(07:30):
Leaders affect everyone.
There are human beings that sitaround the dinner table, and
kids know their parents' boss'sname for better or worse.
There are group techs outthere.
If you're a leader, your name'sin those group texts.
And so I think that's reallygoing back really about 20
years, where I started beingintentional and saying, if I'm
(07:52):
ever in a formalized leadershiprole, how can I do this better
and help others?
Principal JL (07:57):
You bet.
I kind of I don't know if youdon't know if you remember Dr.
Troxel or Mike Troxel, not notDr.
Troxel, but Mike, you rememberMike Troxel?
Dr. Chris Jochum (08:06):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I'll just say it here.
Trox is one of the reasons Ibecame a teacher.
Mike Troxel was my he was mybiology teacher starting from
fifth grade all the way to myjunior year.
And yes, if you're listening,Trox, hey, you I you're doing,
you know, you had an influenceon my life.
But yes, yes, I know Mr.
(08:27):
Troxel very well.
Principal JL (08:28):
Yeah.
So Mike Troxel was my principalwhen I was teaching at Hershey.
And so when I became when I wasstudying to get my master's in
administration, he was myadministrator, he was my
principal that I would, youknow, basically shadow and learn
from.
And and so that's my connectionto Mike.
(08:50):
I knew he was at HurtSutherland for a long time, but
then he was a principal there.
Then he came over to Hershey.
Him and Dr.
Cunning were there when I wasat that time.
And so I actually got to watchMike Troxel retire.
But one thing he kind of toldme is like, you know, you know
what they do with good teachers?
They make them administrators.
(09:11):
So and so I thought that waskind of funny.
But yeah, so we went throughthat whole deal.
And so it was really great tosee what I learned a lot about
leadership is by watching thepeople that were leading the
building.
So the people that were inleadership roles, such as you
know, Mr.
Gray at Twin River, Mr.
(09:32):
Higher at Twin River, MikeTroxel, Dr.
Cunning, Hershey, you know,Brian Begley, you know, all
these principals that I got towatch lead, I got to take
something from that, and thatinformed my leadership today.
That was really great that youshare that because I started
thinking about all the leadersthat I watched as a teacher.
And I thought maybe we mighthave that connection with Mike
(09:55):
Troxel.
Dr. Chris Jochum (09:55):
And people listening, I, you know, it's a
small world.
I did not know that.
But honestly, when I list myinfluences and I say, you know,
leadership is influenceregardless of title.
And just growing up when Troxelbefore he became principal, he
was still one of the mostinfluential people in the
building.
And Dr.
Cunning, if you're listening, Istill apologize for the time in
(10:19):
second grade that I got calledto your office because I was
running around at the footballgame and shouldn't have been.
I mean, since my my dad andMike are dear friends of over 40
years, I can promise you that Igot it worse when I got home.
But yes, that's another personthat I know very well.
Principal JL (10:33):
There you go.
Yeah, that's awesome.
You know, we've been teaching.
So, what motivated you to gofrom the high school setting and
get into upper post-secondaryeducation?
What motivated you?
What was there a story behindthat?
What was it that got you to gofrom high school to to college?
Dr. Chris Jochum (10:55):
Yeah, I well, I didn't necessarily start out
early on saying I'm gonna end upin the college level, right?
As you said, it's mentoring,it's people pulling you aside,
tapping you on the shoulder.
So when I was doing myundergrad, I had a had an
influential teacher named Dr.
Tom Contney, and he taught atUniversity of Nebraska Kearney.
(11:17):
And great teacher, veryenergetic, worked with Madeline
Hunter way back when at UCLA.
And I remember one time he uhhe he called me, he said, Hey,
(11:45):
why don't you stop by my officetomorrow?
And so my default is, well,I've been coming to class doing
all the things.
And I'll never forget, helooked at me and he said, Have
you ever thought about teachingteachers?
Now I'm like a junior or seniorin college, I haven't even been
a real teacher yet, right?
I said, I don't know, sir.
I'm just trying to get out ofcollege.
And he said, Oh, I know, but Ijust wanted you to know that I
(12:08):
think maybe down the road, afteryou get some experience, I see
a few things in you.
I think you'd be really good atteaching teachers.
Okay, I kind of filed thataway, had a chance to go right
into being a high school teacherafter I graduated.
My my college department askedme if I wanted to be a graduate
assistant.
Now, I thought a graduateassistant was a football coach
(12:30):
because you know I'm afirst-generation college
student, and you know, I used towatch football and they'd say
so and so's the GA.
And when they told me that Icould teach a little, go back to
Mexico, all those things.
So I got a taste of higher ed,but I wanted to get into K-12.
(13:03):
And I think I was kind of at acrossroads where I felt as
though maybe I was ready to movein to a different role.
I had my license to be asecondary principal.
And it just so happened, onething led to another, and I had
an opportunity because I wasalso working on my PhD at the
(13:24):
time, just had an opportunity toget into higher education.
And so for nine years, I Iprepared future teachers.
Eight of those years, I was atat my alma mater for my
undergrad and graduate NebraskaKearney and worked with future
foreign language teachers andESL teachers.
So glad I did it.
Certainly love my time in inK-12 and wonder what might have
(13:47):
been had I gone down the otherpath to do what folks like you
do, Jeff.
But uh just had somebody tap meon the shoulder early on and
maybe set my sights on teachingteachers.
Principal JL (13:58):
Awesome.
Well, that's really great.
I mean, someday I thought abouthow could I help give back and
help teach teachers down theroad just because of you know
the experiences I have, I thinkthat would be kind of fun and
exciting to do.
So I appreciate the work you dodo because I think you know
they need you know a dose ofreality.
This is what it's really likeout there, guys.
And you know, I think somepeople you know may not do that
(14:21):
at the college level, andthey're just sticking with
theories and probabilities andwhat may or may work.
And so when you're able tospeak to the things that you've
seen work and you know people inthe business doing the
groundwork, you know, being ableto speak to that is really
awesome.
So you did some research,right?
Yes.
So what drew you to leadershipdevelopment as your primary area
(14:43):
of research?
Dr. Chris Jochum (14:45):
Well, you know, one of the things that
when you when you decide to makea career, at least if you want
to stick around and get tenuredand promoted in higher ed, you
have to research to some degree.
Now, my heart is with regionalcomprehensives, such as the
school I work at now, such asthe school you and I attended in
Nebraska Kearney.
(15:05):
I really believe in thetransformative life experiences
they they give people, certainlyfirst gen students like myself.
But nonetheless, you have toresearch a little bit.
And so, you know, early on inmy career, I always I always
tell people I'm mentoring,research what's in your
backyard.
If you're a teacher scholar,research what you can observe,
what interests you.
And you know, going back togosh, probably the late 90s,
(15:32):
when I watched my first JohnMaxwell video.
And I I again I've always beenintrigued by people that can
shape culture, by coaches thatturn things around, by bosses
that, you know, do all thosethings.
And it planted a seed early onthat, oh, this there's a science
to this.
You can actually learn and getbetter at this.
(15:54):
And I saw the connection rightaway to being a classroom
teacher.
And so I've always carried thatwith me.
Like I said, I've always hadgreat mentors in my life, people
that have, you know, have beenprincipals, superintendents,
college presidents, et cetera.
And as I grew and matured andgot into certainly a formal
leadership role, I decided, youknow, we write the books we wish
(16:18):
we had.
We are most qualified to helpthe person we once were.
And about six years ago, Idecided to write a book on chair
leadership to help people inuniversities.
And then I started about thattime teaching a class on teacher
leadership.
And the more I learned aboutthat, and the more I learned
that, you know, reallyleadership is leadership, that's
(16:39):
what brought me to my mostrecent book, You Don't Have to
Leave to Lead a Practical Guideto Teacher Leadership.
So again, I've always been intothat as someone that I don't
know if I have a lot of hobbies,but one of them is I'm
leadership is my hobby, gettingbetter at that, mentoring
others, speaking on it, writingabout it.
Not because I have all theanswers, but probably the
(17:01):
opposite.
I've made a lot of mistakes,and these are things I wish I
would have been told along theway.
And at the end of the day, asyou know, it's one of those
things that it's it can make adifference in in people's lives,
both personally andprofessionally.
So that's why I'm realpassionate about it and
hopefully can help people withit.
Principal JL (17:18):
Yeah.
No, that's awesome.
That's great.
I know, you know, like you saidearlier before, I mean,
organizations are the theirsuccess is really dictated by
the person sitting in the seat,the person that's leading the
people to that success.
And it's kind of interesting.
You talked about coaches,right?
I I coached 17 years offootball, I've coached wrestling
(17:39):
track.
That's where I learned myleadership style is through
coaching and how I can help kidslearn things, but also teaching
as well.
And that's why I look at myleadership as more of a coach
than I do like theauthoritarian, you know,
dictatorship model.
I don't, I'm not a big fan ofthat.
I'm more like, how can Isupport help you so you can get
(18:01):
what you need, so you can go outthere and be successful in the
game, because I'm not in yourclassroom teaching anymore.
You know, I'm not doing that nomore.
I'm there to support you to dothe best you can.
And so I really think that'sreally cool that we kind of both
have that similar experiencesin different in different ways.
And so let's talk about youknow, your book about becoming a
(18:24):
department chair.
Tell me what you want people totake away from that when you
wrote that book.
Dr. Chris Jochum (18:32):
Well, uh again, like I said, about five,
six years ago now, my first bookwas to help people really in
middle-level leadership roles inhigher ed.
And the reason for that, Idon't know if we can ever fully
be prepared when we take thatinitial or formal step into the
titled role.
But, you know, unlike folkslike yourself that go into
(18:54):
school leadership, you know, youhave to take a master's level
program.
You do learn, at least you'reintentional, right?
About learning some thingsabout leadership and curriculum
leadership and budget and law.
In higher ed, essentially, youcan be the best professor on
campus.
And that in and of itselfusually qualifies you to move
(19:16):
into leadership.
And unfortunately, what makesyou successful as a as a
professor, in and of itself,does not lend itself to
leadership.
In some ways, it's theantithesis.
So I wrote the first booksimply because I wanted to help
people and those that are in theorganizations being led by
(19:36):
those folks, primarily incolleges and universities.
I wanted to one, show them thatyou can go into college or
university leadership and it canbe rewarding, but you need to
do it for the right reasons andyou have to have a growth
mindset.
So that was the main reason.
And as I said before, there aregreat books out there on higher
ed leadership.
I just wrote the book that Ithink would have helped me
(19:59):
personally when I was startingout.
And so that was the impetus forfor the first book.
And and I think it's you knowbeen well received and and has
has helped some people.
So I I I think I've beensuccessful in that regard.
Principal JL (20:12):
You bet, you bet.
I really enjoyed that insightabout that first book.
Now, your newest book, youdon't have to leave the lead, a
practical guide to a teacherleadership.
So tell us about that book.
What inspired this book?
You know, how did it cometogether?
And then what are some of thebig takeaways you want people to
(20:33):
get out of that book?
Dr. Chris Jochum (20:34):
Okay.
Well, you know, what inspiredit?
Again, as I've said, I'vealways been interested in
leadership.
And and I think those of usthat are teachers, we always
look at how can I leverage whatI'm doing right now?
You know, I I'm I'm involvedwith this activity.
Is there something that I couldbring into my classroom?
Is there something I couldlearn from this?
(20:54):
And so I've always thought thatway.
And as I said, about five, sixyears ago, kind of by accident,
I was asked to teach a specialtopics class in our department.
And maybe, like a lot of you, Ihad heard the term teacher
leadership.
And I thought, you know, maybeit was just another one of those
buzzwords that fill in theblank.
(21:15):
I don't want to say any, butyou know, over the years that
you know, you you show up on aMonday for an in-service and it
kind of goes along with yourcoffee and your donut, and okay.
And so I almost challengedmyself to say, okay, what is
this here?
And I learned that for about 40years now, there's been
(21:37):
research, if you're into that,that has shown us that when we
empower classroom teachers, whenwe do what I call give people
perspective and permission, tounderstand their inherent
(22:30):
superpowers as leaders and tounleash that in a good way, both
in the classroom, the school,the district, and the community.
The research is pretty clear.
We never say cause causes withcorrelation, but we say it tends
to go alongside increasedstudent achievement, increased
faculty morale, and teacherretention, which I think right
(22:51):
now we would all say I need moreof that.
And so the more I startedlooking at this, what happened
is I taught the class for aboutfour years.
I taught it to future teachers,I taught it to seasoned
teachers, current admin, a bunchof people would sign up for it
for extra credit, whatever.
And eventually the students,especially The teachers said,
(23:14):
This is really valuable.
This should be in a book.
So I took a lot of theactivities we were doing, took a
lot of my own, you know, thevideos I would make, and
essentially put it into the bookthat just came out.
And what I want people to takeaway from it is first of all, I
wrote this to be conversationaland to be developmental.
(23:34):
So it is as if I were in frontof your faculty at a meeting or
training.
Now there are some things inthere that there's some research
(24:26):
to support it, but certainlyafter the first couple chapters,
it is developmental in nature.
And my goal is to not give yousomething more to put on your
plate, but instead to use thisas a way to strengthen that
plate.
I use the analogy, Jeff, thatthat training up your staff to
be leaders from where they areis akin to asking your athletes
(24:50):
to eat well and lift weights.
It's not just one more thing,it's something that is necessary
so we don't have problems downthe road.
So I want them to take awaythat everyone is a leader.
You have more inherent abilityto control not only your
environment, but your reactionsand in part what you get back.
(25:10):
And you have a lot, lot ofinherent talent and ability to
mentor and work with yourcolleagues and your community
members.
We talk about, I talk aboutconflict management.
I talk about how to develop amission statement, how to go
through and identify culture,you know, culture, climate, and
core values, all of these thingsthat Fortune 500 companies
(25:31):
spend a lot of money trainingtheir leaders to do.
Teachers do inherently, and mygoal is to just help them
uncover and then enhance whatthey can already do.
Principal JL (25:40):
Awesome.
I think that's really powerfulbecause I I agree with that
because it's a sharedleadership, right?
To where, hey, you know, I knowI'm leading in this capacity,
but you're leading yourclassroom, you're leading the
sports team, you're leading, youknow, this group of kids,
you're leading that group ofkids.
You know, leadership, I look atit, and you know, you lead from
(26:05):
where you are, right?
Exactly what you're talkingabout.
Whatever capacity that is, youhave the power to influence
those people to get better atwhat they need to do so they can
be successful.
And if everybody understandsthat from you know, you know,
building principals, APs,classroom teachers, even
students can learn how to becomegood leaders.
(26:27):
You know, when you have allthose things working together,
you're just gonna have moresuccess because then that takes
the pressure off of you know, meas a principal going, yeah, I
don't have to do everything.
You know, I have people thatare, you know, we're working
together, we're collaborating.
And so I think that's reallyimportant for people to
understand is you cannot dothese, you know, be a principal
(26:50):
or be in type of leadershipwithout the people underneath
helping you with that bycollaborating, and how are you
empowering them to do that?
So I think that's a key rightthere is how is you as a leader
empowering the people so theycan feel comfortable with
leading?
Because there's some peoplethat probably will like, I don't
know, but then when you givethem the okay, because I always
(27:14):
talk to my staff, don't beafraid to fail, don't be afraid
to try something different, havea growth mindset.
And when they knew that it wasokay to do something that may
sound crazy, but then they triedit and they were like, Oh, this
worked well, or ah, did it workso well?
I mean, you give them thatempowerment to do what they need
to do to get better, and so Ithink it's really great that you
(27:35):
actually have a book about it.
So that's awesome.
Dr. Chris Jochum (27:38):
Yeah, and and what you touched on, Jeff, is
for the administratorslistening, and maybe the the
ironic thing about a book likethis is folks that are already
doing the great things you'redoing, you get it, right?
Yeah, um, but just to use acoaching analogy, and you know,
uh my high school footballcoach, another person, another
reason I I became a teacher andthought I would be a coach for a
(28:00):
while, you know.
But you know, you use thatanalogy is training up people on
your staff, empowering them asleaders, even if they don't ever
want to go into formalizedleadership, it's no different
than making sure that everyoneon the football team can reach a
certain standard, because thenwhen you practice, everyone's
better.
You know, I mean the you know,you're some days you're only as
(28:22):
good as your, you know, thesecond stringers you're
practicing against.
And so, and I don't mean thatin a bad way, I mean the more
that admin can can empower thepeople on their team, the
stronger the people are, thestronger the team is.
So I really appreciate that youmentioned that.
Principal JL (28:39):
Awesome.
Well, Chris, do you have anyexamples of how principals or
educational leaders can helpbuild up their teachers?
Do you have anything, anyadvice for them that to help
them get started?
Dr. Chris Jochum (28:52):
Well, I mean, I mean this sincerely, listen to
podcasts like yours becausehonestly, there's a lot of great
stuff out there and it's goingto help them.
I would say if they're a littlehesitant or they're just, hey,
curious, you know, I'm curious.
What how could I do this?
Honestly, I think my book wouldbe a great resource for them.
I would start a coupledifferent ways to start.
(29:13):
First of all, I would challengepeople.
How well do you know?
I call it know your roster.
You gotta know your roster.
How well do you know the peopleon your team?
And that's everyone fromwhoever, you know, whoever is on
your grounds crew to, I mean,all the adults on the team.
How well do you know them?
And to what extent are youdoing things that aligns with
(29:38):
their goals and what they liketo do?
It doesn't mean you're apushover, it doesn't mean
everyone gets their way, butsince I think I know that great
leadership is is relational,that might be the first place to
start.
Okay, you don't have to buysome some big curriculum, you
don't have to do something.
How well do I know my people?
(29:58):
And then if you want to go thenext a next step further, and
this might be off for the K-12world, but I don't think so.
But you can tell me if it is,Jeff, is have what I call stay
interviews.
Ask people, you know, why waituntil somebody leaves to have an
extra interview?
Hey, here's what I've noticedyou do well.
What is it about this placethat that means a lot to you?
(30:20):
What are some things that you'dlike to fix?
So that's that's something thatthat I know has worked for
myself and others.
And if somebody is wanting tojust try one thing that will
have a good return oninvestment, lean into your
people, get to know them, andthen step back and say, to what
extent am I creating anenvironment where this aligns
(30:43):
with what they want to do?
And then the the big thing, andif I'm a big James Clear fan,
is keep it simple, boileverything down to what do I
what habit or habits do I or weneed to change on a daily basis
to affect this down the road?
Principal JL (31:00):
1% better, baby.
Dr. Chris Jochum (31:02):
Yep, exactly.
Yep, yep.
So I would say get to knowpeople and then just take baby
steps because you know in K-12,one just do one thing at end of
the school year, you've done 180something times.
Yeah, a lot better, you're alot better in in in May than you
were in August.
So you've improved.
Principal JL (31:19):
Well, that's awesome that you mentioned that
because that's our mantra at ourschool.
And at the end of at thebeginning of the day, we do
announcements and we talk, youknow, we do the little
announcement, and it says, youknow, be 1% better today, go
tigers.
I mean, that's kind of how westart the day.
And it's something that Istarted a couple years ago with,
hey, how are you being 1%better?
(31:40):
How are you stacking thesethings?
You know, Atomic Habits is thebook you're probably referring
to with James Claire, which is agreat book.
I I would recommend it as well,as well as your book, too.
Um, yeah, so on that end, youknow, you know, if people are
thinking about, you know,getting into leadership, there
(32:01):
may be a teacher that's, youknow, I'm not sure this is for
me.
What advice would you givethem?
Dr. Chris Jochum (32:07):
Well, you know, I I wrote a chapter in my
book that walks you throughdeveloping your your mission
statement.
Okay.
And the and the other reason,one of the main reasons I wrote
the book is if you can imagine abell curve, and statistically
the left end is usually a lowernumber, the right end is the
higher number.
(32:28):
On that left end, if you have aperson, a teacher, who is maybe
one bad day, one angry email orphone call away from saying I'm
done, or on the other side, youhave a teacher who, hey, is
being a principal or an AP forme.
I hope that this empowers thatperson that's maybe one bad day
(32:50):
away from leaving the professionto realize they have a lot to
offer and that maybe there'ssome things in there by
empowering themselves and theiroutlook that'll change it.
Those on the other end, becauseas you know, hey, there's a
teacher shortage, but there'salso an administrator shortage.
And so we need to make surethat the people that are going
into the roles that Jeff andothers do are doing it for the
(33:12):
right reasons, just as much asthat kindergarten teacher is
doing it for the right reasons.
So I say that because ifsomebody is like is leadership
for me, challenge yourself.
Why do you do what you do?
What do you hope to enablepeople to do or to become as a
result of that?
And if you come to therealization that while we all
(33:36):
love our kids, you know, ourstudents in our classroom, if
you come to the realization,though, that maybe indirectly
you might be able to serve morepeople from a different vantage
point, I'd encourage you to lookat formalized leadership.
If you are thinking, well, Ilike what I do, but I'm at a
point in my life where I wantdifferent challenges, there are
(33:58):
some things if you enhance yourteacher leadership abilities
that'll help you there.
So I, you know, it's a longanswer because it's hard to just
say one thing, but I would say,first of all, identify where
you're at on that that bellcurve.
And even if you're right in themiddle, look at that.
That what I what I walk youthrough is this kind of this
leadership mission statement.
(34:19):
And I do it with organizationstoo, but this is an individual
level.
And then just step back and usethat as kind of your your
guiding light, so to speak, ishey, this is what I hope to make
people feel.
This is what I hope to enablethem to become.
And if you can do that for morepeople from a leadership
perspective, go for it.
If being the world's bestfourth grade teacher for the
(34:40):
next five years is how you doit, then that's awesome too.
Principal JL (34:43):
Awesome.
Great advice there.
I loved it.
That bell curve idea or beingable to kind of figure out where
they're at is really powerfulbecause you know, some people
may not just know, you know, notknow where they're at.
And so knowing where they're atand making a plan to get where
they want to go is is a verypowerful tool as well.
So, Chris, you've been ineducation for a long time.
(35:04):
You know, are there some thingsout there that you wish you
knew back then that you know nowthat you might be able to share
with other people?
I mean, we can't take allnight, but it can give you one
or two stories.
Dr. Chris Jochum (35:17):
Oh my gosh.
Well, here, you know, here'sthe first thing.
And I tell my, you know, I'mfortunate where I work, I chair
a large teacher educationdepartment, and reminding people
the job is hard because it'shard.
And average, statisticallyaverage, then the everyday
(35:39):
average person does not havewhat it takes to be a K-12
teacher, and that's okay.
Is our K-12 teachers andadministrators are entering a
profession that in some ways isas elite, being good at their
craft is just like aprofessional athlete.
Very few humans on the planetcan do it and sustain it.
So it's hard because it's hard.
(36:00):
And so I wish many, many yearsago, and this was long before
you know the books that you andI have read, and you know, go
growth mindset and all of thatwas even in the vernacular, but
just the understanding that wecan grow, we can get better as
teachers, and that we oftentimeshave a lot more to offer than
(36:21):
we realize.
The other thing is even thoughwe can become somewhat isolated
as teachers on a day-to-daybasis, please realize that there
are more people rooting for youthan against you.
And whether you're a youngteacher struggling or a more
experienced teacher, I wish Ihad realized early on just how
(36:42):
many people are in your corneras a teacher, whether it's your
colleague next door or even theprincipal or whoever, don't
hesitate to reach out and ask.
It's not a sign of weakness,it's a sign of strength.
Realize that people are thereto help you.
And if you ask for that help,they are going to speak into you
and help you more than yourealize.
(37:02):
So, those are a couple ofthings right there that looking
back that close to 30 years ago,I wish I would have known.
Principal JL (37:08):
There you go.
Well, that's really goodadvice, very good perspective
there to kind of help people.
And I'm pretty sure a lot ofpeople can resonate with that.
So, Chris, what's up, what'snext for you?
What are you up to besides youknow being department chair at
Fort Hay State?
You know, you have your book.
I mean, I also know you havethe CJ Leadership Solutions
(37:31):
Company.
So tell us about that and andwhat you're up to now.
Dr. Chris Jochum (37:35):
Well, you know, as you mentioned, real
pleased, you know, the bookhasn't been out too long, and
and you know, really pleased sofar with some of the feedback
and hope that it could justcontinue to help people.
A few years ago, I did start anLLC because been asked to do
some you know, training, keynotespeaking, coaching with K-12,
higher ed, and even you know,corporate space.
(37:57):
So certainly not my full-timejob, but I am I really do enjoy
doing that and hope to do moreof it.
And so obviously, if people arelistening and there's any way I
can be a service, please let meknow.
So I continue to you know getbetter at that, just as teachers
always get better at theircraft.
I want to get better at atdoing that.
(38:17):
Have sometime, probablymid-2026, my colleague and I,
Dr.
Scott Gregory, we have a bookcoming out that we edited, and
it's Profiles in EducationalLeadership, where we reached out
across the country to folksthat are well-known
superintendents, principals,asked them some questions.
(38:38):
And again, that's designed tobe a guide for new leaders,
current leaders, all of theabove that we hope that will
come out maybe mid-2026.
And then also challengingmyself, you know, I wrote a book
for higher ed, and I have abook now for K-12.
My next project that I want tostart working on is a general
(38:58):
leadership book.
So isn't really specific tohigher ed or K-12, but maybe
more reflective of the bookslike you mentioned, that you
know, atomic habits and and thethings that have really helped
me that are just generalleadership and relational
principles.
So hope to work on that aswell.
Principal JL (39:16):
Awesome.
It sounds like you're gonnakeep yourself busy, that's for
sure.
Chris, this has been a greatconversation.
I really enjoy having you onthe podcast today.
So if people wanted to reachout and connect with you, how
could they do that?
Dr. Chris Jochum (39:32):
Yeah, well, first thing is you can go to my
website, that'scjleadership.com.
That has my contact or myemail.
The best way to email me isChris at cjleadership.com.
So my website, you can emailme.
You can there's a formalizedform where you can put your name
and some of your notes.
You can have links to my books,you can kind of see some
(39:54):
testimonials, things that I'vedone.
So yeah, start withcjleadership.com and that should
uh take you where you want togo.
Principal JL (40:01):
Awesome.
And then for everybody that'slistening, I'll put that
information in the show notes.
I also put a link to his booksand everything like that.
So everything, Dr.
Chris Jochum, is gonna be inthe show notes today.
So, Chris, it was great havingyou on the show today.
I'm gonna go ahead and let yougo.
You have anything you wouldlike to say before we go?
Dr. Chris Jochum (40:23):
Well, hey, just thank you to you and and
all you're doing.
Really, really appreciate it.
And I again thank you forhaving me on your show.
It's an honor to be a part ofthis.
Principal JL (40:34):
Awesome.
Well, I'll see you down theroad.
What a conversation with Dr.
Chris Jochum.
His work is strengtheningeducators at every level.
And we're grateful for theinsights he shared with us
(40:54):
today.
If you find this episodeinsightful, please share it with
someone that needs to hear it.
Don't forget to subscribe tothis podcast so you don't miss
another insightful episode likethis one.
Until next time, be curious and1% better.
Have you thought about leaving the classroom to
step into a leadership role?
Well, today's guest says youdon't have to leave to leave.
Today we welcome in Dr.
Chris Jochum.
He is the founder and CEO of CJLeadership Solutions, and a
trusted speaker, trainer, coach,and thought leader.
(02:19):
He is currently the chair ofthe Department of Teacher
Education at Fort Hayes StateUniversity.
He's also the author of twopowerful books.
The Department Chair, apractical guide to effective
leadership.
And his newest release, YouDon't Have to Leave to Lead, a
Practical Guide to TeacherLeadership.
(02:39):
Chris has spent almost threedecades in the K-12 in higher
education, empowering people tolead from where they are.
And today we get to unpack thatleadership journey.
Where it began, what shaped it,and what he's doing now to
strengthen schools andorganizations everywhere.
Now let's get into theconversation with Dr.
(03:02):
Chris Jochum.
Welcome back, everybody, toanother episode of the
Educational Leadership Podcast.
Today I have Dr.
Chris Jochum in the house.
(03:22):
Chris, welcome to the show.
Hey, thank you.
Excited to be here.
All right, I'm going to goahead and I'm going to start you
off like I do every guest onthis show and ask you this one
question.
What inspired you to become aneducator?
Dr. Chris Jochum (03:38):
Well, I assume that this is very common,
certainly when you askeducators.
And when you say educator, Ithink of what got me into K-12.
And, you know, you and I, Ithink we have a lot in common in
terms of our home state andeven having a rural upbringing.
And what really inspired mewere the wonderful teachers and
(04:00):
coaches that I had growing up.
You know, in a small town wheremaybe the most people that have
a college education areprobably working at the school.
And again, I'm not saying I wasalways the best student.
They I probably challenged themat times, but just having
really good teachers and mentorsis what inspired me, probably
(04:23):
at an early age, to start atleast considering being a
teacher.
Principal JL (04:27):
There you go.
So what inspired you to getinto you know teaching Spanish
and English as a second languageas a teacher when you got into
that role?
Dr. Chris Jochum (04:38):
Yeah, well, you know, I picked my profession
first and my my subject second.
And I was a high school teacherbecause I probably didn't, I
wasn't good enough to teachelementary and kindergarten.
Those folks, you know, there'sa special place in heaven for
those folks.
But, you know, it I go back,Jeff, to uh many, many years ago
(05:01):
in my small rural Nebraskacommunity, we would usually have
one or two foreign exchangestudents a year.
And the year that I was takinghigh school Spanish coincided
with us having an exchangestudent in my class.
She was from Japan.
And I thought it was so coolthat someone my age could learn
(05:21):
another language, go to anothercountry.
And, you know, and sometimes,as I joke, Spanish class was one
of the few classes.
I think I made it through allschool year without having to go
to the office at least once.
So I was good at it.
And, you know, I go back 30plus years ago to when that
happened, and that reallyplanted the seed for me to not
(05:43):
only be a teacher, but to serveas an educator through foreign
language and helping othersthrough whether it's English as
a second language or being ahigh school Spanish teacher,
which you know turned into incollege my ability and my love
of study abroad and reallyopened it up.
So I go back to that influence.
(06:03):
I think I was a sophomore inhigh school, and that's what
really got me started on ESLforeign language and bilingual
education.
Principal JL (06:11):
All right.
So during that time as ateacher, is there a story or
something that you learned as ateacher that helped you into
your leadership that you havetoday?
Dr. Chris Jochum (06:23):
Wow.
Yeah, there are many instances.
I think when people ask meabout leadership journey, again,
I've been fortunate to have hadgreat role models as teachers,
coaches.
I think as people like you andothers, I tended to have some
leadership leanings, you know,early on.
You know, there was a few yearsI was the class president or
(06:46):
things like that.
Uh but I think overall seeingthe effect of family members and
friends, so whether they're ineducation or not, but I always
like to remind people thatleaders really do make all the
difference.
Leaders can be the reason thatsomebody either buys a house or
(07:09):
sells a house, that they eitherpack a U-Haul or unpack a
U-Haul.
And so I would just say,overall, what really got me
focused on how can I be a betterleader and how can I help
others lead is that realizationthat the best way to improve an
organization is to improve andaffect the leader.
And leaders affect everyone.
(07:30):
Leaders affect everyone.
There are human beings that sitaround the dinner table, and
kids know their parents' boss'sname for better or worse.
There are group techs outthere.
If you're a leader, your name'sin those group texts.
And so I think that's reallygoing back really about 20
years, where I started beingintentional and saying, if I'm
(07:52):
ever in a formalized leadershiprole, how can I do this better
and help others?
Principal JL (07:57):
You bet.
I kind of I don't know if youdon't know if you remember Dr.
Troxel or Mike Troxel, not notDr.
Troxel, but Mike, you rememberMike Troxel?
Dr. Chris Jochum (08:06):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I'll just say it here.
Trox is one of the reasons Ibecame a teacher.
Mike Troxel was my he was mybiology teacher starting from
fifth grade all the way to myjunior year.
And yes, if you're listening,Trox, hey, you I you're doing,
you know, you had an influenceon my life.
But yes, yes, I know Mr.
(08:27):
Troxel very well.
Principal JL (08:28):
Yeah.
So Mike Troxel was my principalwhen I was teaching at Hershey.
And so when I became when I wasstudying to get my master's in
administration, he was myadministrator, he was my
principal that I would, youknow, basically shadow and learn
from.
And and so that's my connectionto Mike.
(08:50):
I knew he was at HurtSutherland for a long time, but
then he was a principal there.
Then he came over to Hershey.
Him and Dr.
Cunning were there when I wasat that time.
And so I actually got to watchMike Troxel retire.
But one thing he kind of toldme is like, you know, you know
what they do with good teachers?
They make them administrators.
(09:11):
So and so I thought that waskind of funny.
But yeah, so we went throughthat whole deal.
And so it was really great tosee what I learned a lot about
leadership is by watching thepeople that were leading the
building.
So the people that were inleadership roles, such as you
know, Mr.
Gray at Twin River, Mr.
(09:32):
Higher at Twin River, MikeTroxel, Dr.
Cunning, Hershey, you know,Brian Begley, you know, all
these principals that I got towatch lead, I got to take
something from that, and thatinformed my leadership today.
That was really great that youshare that because I started
thinking about all the leadersthat I watched as a teacher.
And I thought maybe we mighthave that connection with Mike
(09:55):
Troxel.
Dr. Chris Jochum (09:55):
And people listening, I, you know, it's a
small world.
I did not know that.
But honestly, when I list myinfluences and I say, you know,
leadership is influenceregardless of title.
And just growing up when Troxelbefore he became principal, he
was still one of the mostinfluential people in the
building.
And Dr.
Cunning, if you're listening, Istill apologize for the time in
(10:19):
second grade that I got calledto your office because I was
running around at the footballgame and shouldn't have been.
I mean, since my my dad andMike are dear friends of over 40
years, I can promise you that Igot it worse when I got home.
But yes, that's another personthat I know very well.
Principal JL (10:33):
There you go.
Yeah, that's awesome.
You know, we've been teaching.
So, what motivated you to gofrom the high school setting and
get into upper post-secondaryeducation?
What motivated you?
What was there a story behindthat?
What was it that got you to gofrom high school to to college?
Dr. Chris Jochum (10:55):
Yeah, I well, I didn't necessarily start out
early on saying I'm gonna end upin the college level, right?
As you said, it's mentoring,it's people pulling you aside,
tapping you on the shoulder.
So when I was doing myundergrad, I had a had an
influential teacher named Dr.
Tom Contney, and he taught atUniversity of Nebraska Kearney.
(11:17):
And great teacher, veryenergetic, worked with Madeline
Hunter way back when at UCLA.
And I remember one time he uhhe he called me, he said, Hey,
(11:45):
why don't you stop by my officetomorrow?
And so my default is, well,I've been coming to class doing
all the things.
And I'll never forget, helooked at me and he said, Have
you ever thought about teachingteachers?
Now I'm like a junior or seniorin college, I haven't even been
a real teacher yet, right?
I said, I don't know, sir.
I'm just trying to get out ofcollege.
And he said, Oh, I know, but Ijust wanted you to know that I
(12:08):
think maybe down the road, afteryou get some experience, I see
a few things in you.
I think you'd be really good atteaching teachers.
Okay, I kind of filed thataway, had a chance to go right
into being a high school teacherafter I graduated.
My my college department askedme if I wanted to be a graduate
assistant.
Now, I thought a graduateassistant was a football coach
(12:30):
because you know I'm afirst-generation college
student, and you know, I used towatch football and they'd say
so and so's the GA.
And when they told me that Icould teach a little, go back to
Mexico, all those things.
So I got a taste of higher ed,but I wanted to get into K-12.
(13:03):
And I think I was kind of at acrossroads where I felt as
though maybe I was ready to movein to a different role.
I had my license to be asecondary principal.
And it just so happened, onething led to another, and I had
an opportunity because I wasalso working on my PhD at the
(13:24):
time, just had an opportunity toget into higher education.
And so for nine years, I Iprepared future teachers.
Eight of those years, I was atat my alma mater for my
undergrad and graduate NebraskaKearney and worked with future
foreign language teachers andESL teachers.
So glad I did it.
Certainly love my time in inK-12 and wonder what might have
(13:47):
been had I gone down the otherpath to do what folks like you
do, Jeff.
But uh just had somebody tap meon the shoulder early on and
maybe set my sights on teachingteachers.
Principal JL (13:58):
Awesome.
Well, that's really great.
I mean, someday I thought abouthow could I help give back and
help teach teachers down theroad just because of you know
the experiences I have, I thinkthat would be kind of fun and
exciting to do.
So I appreciate the work you dodo because I think you know
they need you know a dose ofreality.
This is what it's really likeout there, guys.
And you know, I think somepeople you know may not do that
(14:21):
at the college level, andthey're just sticking with
theories and probabilities andwhat may or may work.
And so when you're able tospeak to the things that you've
seen work and you know people inthe business doing the
groundwork, you know, being ableto speak to that is really
awesome.
So you did some research,right?
Yes.
So what drew you to leadershipdevelopment as your primary area
(14:43):
of research?
Dr. Chris Jochum (14:45):
Well, you know, one of the things that
when you when you decide to makea career, at least if you want
to stick around and get tenuredand promoted in higher ed, you
have to research to some degree.
Now, my heart is with regionalcomprehensives, such as the
school I work at now, such asthe school you and I attended in
Nebraska Kearney.
(15:05):
I really believe in thetransformative life experiences
they they give people, certainlyfirst gen students like myself.
But nonetheless, you have toresearch a little bit.
And so, you know, early on inmy career, I always I always
tell people I'm mentoring,research what's in your
backyard.
If you're a teacher scholar,research what you can observe,
what interests you.
And you know, going back togosh, probably the late 90s,
(15:32):
when I watched my first JohnMaxwell video.
And I I again I've always beenintrigued by people that can
shape culture, by coaches thatturn things around, by bosses
that, you know, do all thosethings.
And it planted a seed early onthat, oh, this there's a science
to this.
You can actually learn and getbetter at this.
(15:54):
And I saw the connection rightaway to being a classroom
teacher.
And so I've always carried thatwith me.
Like I said, I've always hadgreat mentors in my life, people
that have, you know, have beenprincipals, superintendents,
college presidents, et cetera.
And as I grew and matured andgot into certainly a formal
leadership role, I decided, youknow, we write the books we wish
(16:18):
we had.
We are most qualified to helpthe person we once were.
And about six years ago, Idecided to write a book on chair
leadership to help people inuniversities.
And then I started about thattime teaching a class on teacher
leadership.
And the more I learned aboutthat, and the more I learned
that, you know, reallyleadership is leadership, that's
(16:39):
what brought me to my mostrecent book, You Don't Have to
Leave to Lead a Practical Guideto Teacher Leadership.
So again, I've always been intothat as someone that I don't
know if I have a lot of hobbies,but one of them is I'm
leadership is my hobby, gettingbetter at that, mentoring
others, speaking on it, writingabout it.
Not because I have all theanswers, but probably the
(17:01):
opposite.
I've made a lot of mistakes,and these are things I wish I
would have been told along theway.
And at the end of the day, asyou know, it's one of those
things that it's it can make adifference in in people's lives,
both personally andprofessionally.
So that's why I'm realpassionate about it and
hopefully can help people withit.
Principal JL (17:18):
Yeah.
No, that's awesome.
That's great.
I know, you know, like you saidearlier before, I mean,
organizations are the theirsuccess is really dictated by
the person sitting in the seat,the person that's leading the
people to that success.
And it's kind of interesting.
You talked about coaches,right?
I I coached 17 years offootball, I've coached wrestling
(17:39):
track.
That's where I learned myleadership style is through
coaching and how I can help kidslearn things, but also teaching
as well.
And that's why I look at myleadership as more of a coach
than I do like theauthoritarian, you know,
dictatorship model.
I don't, I'm not a big fan ofthat.
I'm more like, how can Isupport help you so you can get
(18:01):
what you need, so you can go outthere and be successful in the
game, because I'm not in yourclassroom teaching anymore.
You know, I'm not doing that nomore.
I'm there to support you to dothe best you can.
And so I really think that'sreally cool that we kind of both
have that similar experiencesin different in different ways.
And so let's talk about youknow, your book about becoming a
(18:24):
department chair.
Tell me what you want people totake away from that when you
wrote that book.
Dr. Chris Jochum (18:32):
Well, uh again, like I said, about five,
six years ago now, my first bookwas to help people really in
middle-level leadership roles inhigher ed.
And the reason for that, Idon't know if we can ever fully
be prepared when we take thatinitial or formal step into the
titled role.
But, you know, unlike folkslike yourself that go into
(18:54):
school leadership, you know, youhave to take a master's level
program.
You do learn, at least you'reintentional, right?
About learning some thingsabout leadership and curriculum
leadership and budget and law.
In higher ed, essentially, youcan be the best professor on
campus.
And that in and of itselfusually qualifies you to move
(19:16):
into leadership.
And unfortunately, what makesyou successful as a as a
professor, in and of itself,does not lend itself to
leadership.
In some ways, it's theantithesis.
So I wrote the first booksimply because I wanted to help
people and those that are in theorganizations being led by
(19:36):
those folks, primarily incolleges and universities.
I wanted to one, show them thatyou can go into college or
university leadership and it canbe rewarding, but you need to
do it for the right reasons andyou have to have a growth
mindset.
So that was the main reason.
And as I said before, there aregreat books out there on higher
ed leadership.
I just wrote the book that Ithink would have helped me
(19:59):
personally when I was startingout.
And so that was the impetus forfor the first book.
And and I think it's you knowbeen well received and and has
has helped some people.
So I I I think I've beensuccessful in that regard.
Principal JL (20:12):
You bet, you bet.
I really enjoyed that insightabout that first book.
Now, your newest book, youdon't have to leave the lead, a
practical guide to a teacherleadership.
So tell us about that book.
What inspired this book?
You know, how did it cometogether?
And then what are some of thebig takeaways you want people to
(20:33):
get out of that book?
Dr. Chris Jochum (20:34):
Okay.
Well, you know, what inspiredit?
Again, as I've said, I'vealways been interested in
leadership.
And and I think those of usthat are teachers, we always
look at how can I leverage whatI'm doing right now?
You know, I I'm I'm involvedwith this activity.
Is there something that I couldbring into my classroom?
Is there something I couldlearn from this?
(20:54):
And so I've always thought thatway.
And as I said, about five, sixyears ago, kind of by accident,
I was asked to teach a specialtopics class in our department.
And maybe, like a lot of you, Ihad heard the term teacher
leadership.
And I thought, you know, maybeit was just another one of those
buzzwords that fill in theblank.
(21:15):
I don't want to say any, butyou know, over the years that
you know, you you show up on aMonday for an in-service and it
kind of goes along with yourcoffee and your donut, and okay.
And so I almost challengedmyself to say, okay, what is
this here?
And I learned that for about 40years now, there's been
(21:37):
research, if you're into that,that has shown us that when we
empower classroom teachers, whenwe do what I call give people
perspective and permission, tounderstand their inherent
(22:30):
superpowers as leaders and tounleash that in a good way, both
in the classroom, the school,the district, and the community.
The research is pretty clear.
We never say cause causes withcorrelation, but we say it tends
to go alongside increasedstudent achievement, increased
faculty morale, and teacherretention, which I think right
(22:51):
now we would all say I need moreof that.
And so the more I startedlooking at this, what happened
is I taught the class for aboutfour years.
I taught it to future teachers,I taught it to seasoned
teachers, current admin, a bunchof people would sign up for it
for extra credit, whatever.
And eventually the students,especially The teachers said,
(23:14):
This is really valuable.
This should be in a book.
So I took a lot of theactivities we were doing, took a
lot of my own, you know, thevideos I would make, and
essentially put it into the bookthat just came out.
And what I want people to takeaway from it is first of all, I
wrote this to be conversationaland to be developmental.
(23:34):
So it is as if I were in frontof your faculty at a meeting or
training.
Now there are some things inthere that there's some research
(24:26):
to support it, but certainlyafter the first couple chapters,
it is developmental in nature.
And my goal is to not give yousomething more to put on your
plate, but instead to use thisas a way to strengthen that
plate.
I use the analogy, Jeff, thatthat training up your staff to
be leaders from where they areis akin to asking your athletes
(24:50):
to eat well and lift weights.
It's not just one more thing,it's something that is necessary
so we don't have problems downthe road.
So I want them to take awaythat everyone is a leader.
You have more inherent abilityto control not only your
environment, but your reactionsand in part what you get back.
(25:10):
And you have a lot, lot ofinherent talent and ability to
mentor and work with yourcolleagues and your community
members.
We talk about, I talk aboutconflict management.
I talk about how to develop amission statement, how to go
through and identify culture,you know, culture, climate, and
core values, all of these thingsthat Fortune 500 companies
(25:31):
spend a lot of money trainingtheir leaders to do.
Teachers do inherently, and mygoal is to just help them
uncover and then enhance whatthey can already do.
Principal JL (25:40):
Awesome.
I think that's really powerfulbecause I I agree with that
because it's a sharedleadership, right?
To where, hey, you know, I knowI'm leading in this capacity,
but you're leading yourclassroom, you're leading the
sports team, you're leading, youknow, this group of kids,
you're leading that group ofkids.
You know, leadership, I look atit, and you know, you lead from
(26:05):
where you are, right?
Exactly what you're talkingabout.
Whatever capacity that is, youhave the power to influence
those people to get better atwhat they need to do so they can
be successful.
And if everybody understandsthat from you know, you know,
building principals, APs,classroom teachers, even
students can learn how to becomegood leaders.
(26:27):
You know, when you have allthose things working together,
you're just gonna have moresuccess because then that takes
the pressure off of you know, meas a principal going, yeah, I
don't have to do everything.
You know, I have people thatare, you know, we're working
together, we're collaborating.
And so I think that's reallyimportant for people to
understand is you cannot dothese, you know, be a principal
(26:50):
or be in type of leadershipwithout the people underneath
helping you with that bycollaborating, and how are you
empowering them to do that?
So I think that's a key rightthere is how is you as a leader
empowering the people so theycan feel comfortable with
leading?
Because there's some peoplethat probably will like, I don't
know, but then when you givethem the okay, because I always
(27:14):
talk to my staff, don't beafraid to fail, don't be afraid
to try something different, havea growth mindset.
And when they knew that it wasokay to do something that may
sound crazy, but then they triedit and they were like, Oh, this
worked well, or ah, did it workso well?
I mean, you give them thatempowerment to do what they need
to do to get better, and so Ithink it's really great that you
(27:35):
actually have a book about it.
So that's awesome.
Dr. Chris Jochum (27:38):
Yeah, and and what you touched on, Jeff, is
for the administratorslistening, and maybe the the
ironic thing about a book likethis is folks that are already
doing the great things you'redoing, you get it, right?
Yeah, um, but just to use acoaching analogy, and you know,
uh my high school footballcoach, another person, another
reason I I became a teacher andthought I would be a coach for a
(28:00):
while, you know.
But you know, you use thatanalogy is training up people on
your staff, empowering them asleaders, even if they don't ever
want to go into formalizedleadership, it's no different
than making sure that everyoneon the football team can reach a
certain standard, because thenwhen you practice, everyone's
better.
You know, I mean the you know,you're some days you're only as
(28:22):
good as your, you know, thesecond stringers you're
practicing against.
And so, and I don't mean thatin a bad way, I mean the more
that admin can can empower thepeople on their team, the
stronger the people are, thestronger the team is.
So I really appreciate that youmentioned that.
Principal JL (28:39):
Awesome.
Well, Chris, do you have anyexamples of how principals or
educational leaders can helpbuild up their teachers?
Do you have anything, anyadvice for them that to help
them get started?
Dr. Chris Jochum (28:52):
Well, I mean, I mean this sincerely, listen to
podcasts like yours becausehonestly, there's a lot of great
stuff out there and it's goingto help them.
I would say if they're a littlehesitant or they're just, hey,
curious, you know, I'm curious.
What how could I do this?
Honestly, I think my book wouldbe a great resource for them.
I would start a coupledifferent ways to start.
(29:13):
First of all, I would challengepeople.
How well do you know?
I call it know your roster.
You gotta know your roster.
How well do you know the peopleon your team?
And that's everyone fromwhoever, you know, whoever is on
your grounds crew to, I mean,all the adults on the team.
How well do you know them?
And to what extent are youdoing things that aligns with
(29:38):
their goals and what they liketo do?
It doesn't mean you're apushover, it doesn't mean
everyone gets their way, butsince I think I know that great
leadership is is relational,that might be the first place to
start.
Okay, you don't have to buysome some big curriculum, you
don't have to do something.
How well do I know my people?
(29:58):
And then if you want to go thenext a next step further, and
this might be off for the K-12world, but I don't think so.
But you can tell me if it is,Jeff, is have what I call stay
interviews.
Ask people, you know, why waituntil somebody leaves to have an
extra interview?
Hey, here's what I've noticedyou do well.
What is it about this placethat that means a lot to you?
(30:20):
What are some things that you'dlike to fix?
So that's that's something thatthat I know has worked for
myself and others.
And if somebody is wanting tojust try one thing that will
have a good return oninvestment, lean into your
people, get to know them, andthen step back and say, to what
extent am I creating anenvironment where this aligns
(30:43):
with what they want to do?
And then the the big thing, andif I'm a big James Clear fan,
is keep it simple, boileverything down to what do I
what habit or habits do I or weneed to change on a daily basis
to affect this down the road?
Principal JL (31:00):
1% better, baby.
Dr. Chris Jochum (31:02):
Yep, exactly.
Yep, yep.
So I would say get to knowpeople and then just take baby
steps because you know in K-12,one just do one thing at end of
the school year, you've done 180something times.
Yeah, a lot better, you're alot better in in in May than you
were in August.
So you've improved.
Principal JL (31:19):
Well, that's awesome that you mentioned that
because that's our mantra at ourschool.
And at the end of at thebeginning of the day, we do
announcements and we talk, youknow, we do the little
announcement, and it says, youknow, be 1% better today, go
tigers.
I mean, that's kind of how westart the day.
And it's something that Istarted a couple years ago with,
hey, how are you being 1%better?
(31:40):
How are you stacking thesethings?
You know, Atomic Habits is thebook you're probably referring
to with James Claire, which is agreat book.
I I would recommend it as well,as well as your book, too.
Um, yeah, so on that end, youknow, you know, if people are
thinking about, you know,getting into leadership, there
(32:01):
may be a teacher that's, youknow, I'm not sure this is for
me.
What advice would you givethem?
Dr. Chris Jochum (32:07):
Well, you know, I I wrote a chapter in my
book that walks you throughdeveloping your your mission
statement.
Okay.
And the and the other reason,one of the main reasons I wrote
the book is if you can imagine abell curve, and statistically
the left end is usually a lowernumber, the right end is the
higher number.
(32:28):
On that left end, if you have aperson, a teacher, who is maybe
one bad day, one angry email orphone call away from saying I'm
done, or on the other side, youhave a teacher who, hey, is
being a principal or an AP forme.
I hope that this empowers thatperson that's maybe one bad day
(32:50):
away from leaving the professionto realize they have a lot to
offer and that maybe there'ssome things in there by
empowering themselves and theiroutlook that'll change it.
Those on the other end, becauseas you know, hey, there's a
teacher shortage, but there'salso an administrator shortage.
And so we need to make surethat the people that are going
into the roles that Jeff andothers do are doing it for the
(33:12):
right reasons, just as much asthat kindergarten teacher is
doing it for the right reasons.
So I say that because ifsomebody is like is leadership
for me, challenge yourself.
Why do you do what you do?
What do you hope to enablepeople to do or to become as a
result of that?
And if you come to therealization that while we all
(33:36):
love our kids, you know, ourstudents in our classroom, if
you come to the realization,though, that maybe indirectly
you might be able to serve morepeople from a different vantage
point, I'd encourage you to lookat formalized leadership.
If you are thinking, well, Ilike what I do, but I'm at a
point in my life where I wantdifferent challenges, there are
(33:58):
some things if you enhance yourteacher leadership abilities
that'll help you there.
So I, you know, it's a longanswer because it's hard to just
say one thing, but I would say,first of all, identify where
you're at on that that bellcurve.
And even if you're right in themiddle, look at that.
That what I what I walk youthrough is this kind of this
leadership mission statement.
(34:19):
And I do it with organizationstoo, but this is an individual
level.
And then just step back and usethat as kind of your your
guiding light, so to speak, ishey, this is what I hope to make
people feel.
This is what I hope to enablethem to become.
And if you can do that for morepeople from a leadership
perspective, go for it.
If being the world's bestfourth grade teacher for the
(34:40):
next five years is how you doit, then that's awesome too.
Principal JL (34:43):
Awesome.
Great advice there.
I loved it.
That bell curve idea or beingable to kind of figure out where
they're at is really powerfulbecause you know, some people
may not just know, you know, notknow where they're at.
And so knowing where they're atand making a plan to get where
they want to go is is a verypowerful tool as well.
So, Chris, you've been ineducation for a long time.
(35:04):
You know, are there some thingsout there that you wish you
knew back then that you know nowthat you might be able to share
with other people?
I mean, we can't take allnight, but it can give you one
or two stories.
Dr. Chris Jochum (35:17):
Oh my gosh.
Well, here, you know, here'sthe first thing.
And I tell my, you know, I'mfortunate where I work, I chair
a large teacher educationdepartment, and reminding people
the job is hard because it'shard.
And average, statisticallyaverage, then the everyday
(35:39):
average person does not havewhat it takes to be a K-12
teacher, and that's okay.
Is our K-12 teachers andadministrators are entering a
profession that in some ways isas elite, being good at their
craft is just like aprofessional athlete.
Very few humans on the planetcan do it and sustain it.
So it's hard because it's hard.
(36:00):
And so I wish many, many yearsago, and this was long before
you know the books that you andI have read, and you know, go
growth mindset and all of thatwas even in the vernacular, but
just the understanding that wecan grow, we can get better as
teachers, and that we oftentimeshave a lot more to offer than
(36:21):
we realize.
The other thing is even thoughwe can become somewhat isolated
as teachers on a day-to-daybasis, please realize that there
are more people rooting for youthan against you.
And whether you're a youngteacher struggling or a more
experienced teacher, I wish Ihad realized early on just how
(36:42):
many people are in your corneras a teacher, whether it's your
colleague next door or even theprincipal or whoever, don't
hesitate to reach out and ask.
It's not a sign of weakness,it's a sign of strength.
Realize that people are thereto help you.
And if you ask for that help,they are going to speak into you
and help you more than yourealize.
(37:02):
So, those are a couple ofthings right there that looking
back that close to 30 years ago,I wish I would have known.
Principal JL (37:08):
There you go.
Well, that's really goodadvice, very good perspective
there to kind of help people.
And I'm pretty sure a lot ofpeople can resonate with that.
So, Chris, what's up, what'snext for you?
What are you up to besides youknow being department chair at
Fort Hay State?
You know, you have your book.
I mean, I also know you havethe CJ Leadership Solutions
(37:31):
Company.
So tell us about that and andwhat you're up to now.
Dr. Chris Jochum (37:35):
Well, you know, as you mentioned, real
pleased, you know, the bookhasn't been out too long, and
and you know, really pleased sofar with some of the feedback
and hope that it could justcontinue to help people.
A few years ago, I did start anLLC because been asked to do
some you know, training, keynotespeaking, coaching with K-12,
higher ed, and even you know,corporate space.
(37:57):
So certainly not my full-timejob, but I am I really do enjoy
doing that and hope to do moreof it.
And so obviously, if people arelistening and there's any way I
can be a service, please let meknow.
So I continue to you know getbetter at that, just as teachers
always get better at theircraft.
I want to get better at atdoing that.
(38:17):
Have sometime, probablymid-2026, my colleague and I,
Dr.
Scott Gregory, we have a bookcoming out that we edited, and
it's Profiles in EducationalLeadership, where we reached out
across the country to folksthat are well-known
superintendents, principals,asked them some questions.
(38:38):
And again, that's designed tobe a guide for new leaders,
current leaders, all of theabove that we hope that will
come out maybe mid-2026.
And then also challengingmyself, you know, I wrote a book
for higher ed, and I have abook now for K-12.
My next project that I want tostart working on is a general
(38:58):
leadership book.
So isn't really specific tohigher ed or K-12, but maybe
more reflective of the bookslike you mentioned, that you
know, atomic habits and and thethings that have really helped
me that are just generalleadership and relational
principles.
So hope to work on that aswell.
Principal JL (39:16):
Awesome.
It sounds like you're gonnakeep yourself busy, that's for
sure.
Chris, this has been a greatconversation.
I really enjoy having you onthe podcast today.
So if people wanted to reachout and connect with you, how
could they do that?
Dr. Chris Jochum (39:32):
Yeah, well, first thing is you can go to my
website, that'scjleadership.com.
That has my contact or myemail.
The best way to email me isChris at cjleadership.com.
So my website, you can emailme.
You can there's a formalizedform where you can put your name
and some of your notes.
You can have links to my books,you can kind of see some
(39:54):
testimonials, things that I'vedone.
So yeah, start withcjleadership.com and that should
uh take you where you want togo.
Principal JL (40:01):
Awesome.
And then for everybody that'slistening, I'll put that
information in the show notes.
I also put a link to his booksand everything like that.
So everything, Dr.
Chris Jochum, is gonna be inthe show notes today.
So, Chris, it was great havingyou on the show today.
I'm gonna go ahead and let yougo.
You have anything you wouldlike to say before we go?
Dr. Chris Jochum (40:23):
Well, hey, just thank you to you and and
all you're doing.
Really, really appreciate it.
And I again thank you forhaving me on your show.
It's an honor to be a part ofthis.
Principal JL (40:34):
Awesome.
Well, I'll see you down theroad.
What a conversation with Dr.
Chris Jochum.
His work is strengtheningeducators at every level.
And we're grateful for theinsights he shared with us
(40:54):
today.
If you find this episodeinsightful, please share it with
someone that needs to hear it.
Don't forget to subscribe tothis podcast so you don't miss
another insightful episode likethis one.
Until next time, be curious and1% better.
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