June 27, 2024 • 22 mins
Dr. Jerry Valentine, who is a professor emeritus at the University of Missouri, brings over 50 years of experience to the educational field. His strategies have been utilized in over 35 states currently in several international countries.
Dr. Valentine will share information on higher order thinking in order to positively impact academic success.
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
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Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-2 (00:00):
Hello.
Welcome to EducationalRelevance, platform for
experienced educators to shareproven successful strategies to
educate today's leaders be itadministrators, staff members,
and others who work ineducation.
We are honored today to have Dr.
Jerry Valentine with us.
Valentine is a currentlyprofessor emeritus over at
(00:22):
University of Missouri, Dr.
Valentine brings over 50 yearsof tremendous experience to the
educational field.
His strategies have beenutilized in over 35 states
currently in severalinternational countries.
we are so honored to have Dr.
Valentine join us.
I'm also here with my colleagueMr.
Mark Mcbeth.
Mark is educational leader anddone some tremendous work in
(00:45):
states of both Missouri, Kansasand Colorado.
Mark.
Good to see you again, whatwe're going to discuss today,
what's your teachers be doing topromote higher order thinking
strategies and Why should theyincorporate these into the
classrooms?
Mark, I'm going to turn it overto you.
And Dr.
Valentine
Track 1 (01:00):
So thanks, Brian.
So Dr.
Valentine, a while back wetalked about IPI and how you
collect data on studentengagement.
What is the conversation that weshould be having around higher
order and deeper thinking typeof stuff.
And then what's the impact ofthat?
Why do teachers even want tothink about it in the long run?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (01:22):
Well, we know there's a tight
relationship between higher,deeper thinking time and
academic success.
So there's an educational reasonto want to do this.
We want the kids to leave uswith the best skills and thought
processes that we can give them.
know that that there's a linkbetween.
Skills that go with higher ordeeper thinking and what the
(01:43):
business industry folks reallyexpect of the people that work
for them, and we know that we'vegot a society today that is is
proliferated with data frommultiple sources and angles and
views, and we have to beresponsible for that.
Clear thinkers as to what we areat and hearing and good
(02:03):
consumers of that.
And that means we have to becritical thinkers.
We have to be able to analyze.
We have to be able to make goodjudgments in order to be
frankly, good, productive,contributing citizens to the
community.
So higher deeper thinking is, isnot just a.
an educational philosophical,notion that sounds really good
(02:26):
in journals and in papers andother places.
Higher and Deeper Thinking is ais a basic fundamental of what
we expect as a byproduct of oureducational system.
We expect kids to be able to donumeracy and literacy and be
able to read and write and, toremember things and to know
facts and understand history andcivics and science and all.
(02:47):
But we also expect them to beable to think more deeply about
those kinds of things and bemore reflective about it and be
better consumers of it and to bebetter consumers of all.
The things that surround them inlife.
So higher deeper thinking is afundamental skill that we'd love
to generate more of amongst ourstudents, because it means
they're going to be more
Track 1 (03:07):
Aren't we already doing that in the classroom?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-2 (03:09):
some degree we are.
But if you look at the fact thatin any given classroom, typical
classroom across the country,out of a child's classroom day,
they spend about 20 percentengaged in higher, deeper
thinking about 70 to 80 percentengaged in lower order surface
thinking.
And about 5 percent of the time.
Disengage from thought processassociated with the curriculum.
(03:32):
So, we could grow that, andthat's what cognitive
psychologists have told us for along time, if we could grow
that, then we would be doing abetter service to our students.
How much should we grow itbecomes a basic question.
If you look at a bar graph andyou see that, that if this is a
bar graph for higher, deeperthinking, and this is a bar
graph for lower order surfacethinking, skill building, fact
(03:54):
finding recall kinds of things,what we should have happen,
according to most of the peoplewho research and study this, is
we should be working toward abalance between the two, amount
of time, 60%, 40%, 40%, 60%,50%, but it shouldn't be set up
with a bar graph this different,up here at 70 and down here at
(04:14):
25 or something like that, or20, it should be more balanced.
one to one ratio, not a three toone, four to one ratio.
That means we've got a long wayto go.
It means we've got to engagefaculty in understanding the
importance of that for the goodof our kids and the kids that we
send from us after 13 yearstrying to educate them.
So, that's the fundamentalissue.
(04:36):
It produces people who arecapable of thinking more.
The more opportunity studentshave to learn to think more
deeply, more critically, morereflectively, more analytically,
more creatively, in the contextof a curriculum area.
In multiple curriculum areas,the more we engage them in that,
the more they see the biggerpicture, the more they
understand, the more they becomecurious, the more they become
(04:57):
inquisitive, the more theydevelop skills of inquiry think
on their own and be bettercitizens.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-2024_ (05:04):
If I can answer this question,
Mark, always talked about thethree R's rigor, relevance,
relationships.
how does building relationshipswith staff and with teachers
assist this higher orderthinking to be done?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-202 (05:14):
We know that relationships are a
key factor on everybody'sresearch and I mentioned Hattie
just a minute ago, but if youlook at the factors and his
Comprehensive studies and how hestudied everybody else's
research as well, you know,teacher student relationships
are a critical part of thelearning process.
have to have that respect forthe teacher.
They have to have thatappreciation for the teacher.
(05:36):
The teacher has to have thatcollaborative respect, that same
kind of respect for the studentsand the way they work with them.
yeah, relationships areimportant.
What we've also seen, though, aswe help teachers develop more,
engaging, more thoughtfullearning experiences in the
classroom.
We see the kids engaging moreand we see the kids building
(05:56):
more and more respect for theteacher.
The, the quality of the teachinglearning experience that a
teacher puts together in theclassroom Affects the kids in
terms of their attitude, itaffects them in terms of their
motivation, it affects them interms of their commitment, it
affects them in terms of theamount of time they're willing
to invest in the learningprocess.
(06:16):
Children, build off of thatteacher.
That teacher's energy, thatteacher's enthusiasm, that
teacher's honesty, thatteacher's Personality and that
teacher's knowledge of subjectmatter and important as anything
in all of that in helping builda relationship, I think, is that
teacher's ability to createreally high quality learning
experiences for the kids thatasks them to understand
(06:40):
fundamentals and go beyond thatto have a deep appreciation of
the content area and the subjectthat they're talking about,
whether that's first grade orwhether that's 12th
Track 1 (06:48):
What's the difference between really that defining
factor of giving theminformation and having them
process and think information?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-202 (06:58):
we basically, in the IPI process,
instructional practice,inventory process of codifying
how kids are cognitivelyengaged.
We basically have started intosix categories.
Two of the categories are abouthigher, deeper thinking.
And to achieve higher, deeperthinking, you have to find ways
to.
Mentally engage the kids inanalysis and in problem solving
(07:19):
and in reflection and increativity, et cetera.
Well, you take that and you lookat two other two categories in
the IPI process are also aboutlower order surface thinking
primarily.
Is it, the learning processteacher led, teacher directed?
Is the teacher doing the thingand the kids are sitting back
passively processing?
Just as somebody watching thispodcast is doing right now,
(07:40):
they're sitting back passivelyprocessing while we provide
insights, and one, anothercategory, actually two more in
the IAPI process are about Whenthe kids are busy doing seat
work, practice work, etc.
And is the teacher attentive toand focused on the kids?
Or is the teacher attentive, notattentive to and focused on the
kids?
So three categories there thatare about lower order surface
(08:02):
thinking.
Rigor understanding and having agood foundation of facts and
figures and basic knowledge.
But rigor doesn't stop there.
Although, albeit too muchtesting tends to stop there,
rigor is all about we take thatfoundational knowledge and go
(08:23):
deeper and deeper and deeperwith it in order to understand
it so well that we become, welearn to appreciate science, we
learn to appreciate literature.
to understand it and are curiousabout it and want to absorb
more.
We learn to become a learner whois a self learner.
create student centeredclassrooms where instead of the
(08:46):
teacher talking at and spendingall that time informing kids,
engages kids in that.
And we've also learned that oneof the most powerful forms of
learning for our kids is How tocreate collaborative learning
amongst the students, whether Iput the kids in pairs, triads,
quartets, quintets, or have awhole class discussion, it
doesn't seem to matter, as longas the students are learning to
(09:07):
cooperate and collaborate witheach other, because the more
they do that, more they learnfrom each other, the deeper is
their understanding, the broaderis their perspective of the
content and appreciation of it,the more they recall.
Because when we have to talksomething through and just
discuss it with others, itincreases our recall.
So, for the kids, rigor, rigordoesn't mean just facts and
(09:35):
figures, being able to rattleoff ten presidents names in a
row a certain era.
It's about understanding thecontributions of those
presidents to history and theirimpact on it throughout history.
Both president and later it'sall about asking the kids to be
more thoughtful, engaginglearning participants, because
(09:57):
that's what will carry them allinto life.
Not a whole bunch of facts thatthey had to memorize and we'll
soon forget their tests on ahigh stakes test score.
That doesn't take that intoaccount.
Assessments are valuable.
We have to learn how to how tobuild formative and summative
assessments that really get at achild's understanding of
something, depth of knowledge ofsomething.
(10:18):
yet we find states giving up onthat because to really score
statewide assessments that haverigor to them that are engaged
with, if you will, recall issuesand more higher order issues,
coding and scoring of the higherorder issues it's expensive.
It's much more complex thanscoring, you know, multiple
choice answers on a high stakestest.
(10:41):
So
Track 1 (10:42):
So, that's made me think of a question.
aren't you going to get kickbackfrom teachers thinking about
this?
Because it is harder to do
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (10:50):
Yeah, it is harder to do by and large.
Kick back.
we hear the, struggles thatteachers have all the time as we
work with schools, you know, wecould be in the course of a
single year working with 50, ahundred schools the IPI process,
helping them learn how to put itin place and work through it.
And we're constantly seeingteachers.
Who want to help theircolleagues because the teachers
(11:13):
that I get to work with are theteachers who will lead the
process in the school.
Now, when I sit down with themas they begin the process, when
I sit down with them a year intothe process, when I sit down
with them five years into theprocess and we start talking and
debriefing, what they continueto say is, boy, it's a struggle
to get my colleagues to be opento looking at this because
(11:35):
They've been teaching a certainway for a long period of time or
for a short period of time andthat's how they learned and they
tend to repeat and repeat andrepeat and you know the only
answer you got on that one is ifyou keep doing the same thing
and keep repeating the samething you keep getting the same
thing well that's basically whywe have to look at how do we
help teachers grow just a littlebit each year in terms of
(11:57):
expanding their repertoire ofstrategies so that those
strategies move more and morefrom a certain percent of time
being a lower order and now moveto a higher percent of time
being higher order you've got totake that time from somewhere
and once you eliminatedisengagement during class time
now you've got to start pullingwhere do we keep growing higher
order we have to start pullingit from lower order time Without
(12:21):
sacrificing the importance oflower order.
I talk to teachers all the timeabout you need a certain amount
of lower, a certain amount ofhigher order, and you've got to
have both because both is whatgood teaching is.
So in the IPI coding world, wetalk about, you have to have a
lot of threes, a lot of fours, alot of fives, and a lot of
sixes.
The threes and fours areessential.
lower order and the fives andsixes are essential.
(12:42):
They're higher order.
And we've got to take and reduceone and grow the other in order
to get the kinds of experienceswe need with our kids.
Track 1 (12:51):
good.
But
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (12:52):
Well, let me ask this question here
for me.
Two things.
One the day and time teachers,you talk about strategy,
teachers are incorporatingtechnology their classrooms on a
regular basis right now.
How would you use theinstructional practice inventory
and help teach us how toincorporate this along the
technology in the classroom?
Okay.
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (13:11):
We've really had some fun looking at
technology.
When I built this process, oneto one wasn't even really on the
horizon.
It didn't seem in most schools.
By, and that was in 19 95, 96.
By 2000, it was starting to betalked about as we're collecting
data in the early two thousands,we're seeing schools that now
have, more sophisticatedprojection systems and a,
(13:32):
computer in the classroom forthe teacher.
And then as we go a littlefurther into the two thousands,
we're now starting to seeschools that have technology in
the hands of kids.
And by 2010, I am, I'm thinking,God, I wish I would've figured
out the time to have done thisbefore, but I gotta do it now.
We have to add a technologycomponent to the IPI process.
It measures how kids arethinking when they're using
(13:53):
technology vis a vis how kidsare thinking when they're not
using technology, and how istechnology being used in the
classroom to support and fosterlearning, particularly higher
order and remove and reducedisengagement.
So by 2011 we put in place andhave been using now for the last
13 14 years an additionalcomponent gives us insight as to
how kids are thinking.
(14:15):
they are engaging when theteacher is using technology as a
tool to engage them with thelearning experience, and we
found that as teachers get ayear or 2 under the belt of how
to use the technology, and ifthey're part of the which means.
They're looking at data on aregular basis of how their kids
are thinking.
(14:35):
They're trying to findstrategies for improving that
thinking that we now have atool, a piece of technology that
can be a great boon to that,because there's so much that a
piece of technology in theclassroom can bring to enhancing
the opportunities to createhigher, deeper thinking.
And that's what we've seen inthe numbers, a typical school.
(14:55):
My start out with 20 percenthigher deeper thinking, and
that's extremely common acrossthe country, a school that's not
focused on cognitive engagement,a school that is not looking at
at how our kids are thinking andtrying to do something special
with it.
Now, once schools start to focuson that, we typically see that
20 percent up to 25%.
(15:17):
Sometimes right at around orunder 30, and I've had the
fortune of having data frombefore schools start using
technology in a very persistent,pervasive kind of way today
where they are.
And we've seen as technologygets starts to come into the
(15:40):
picture at middle schools andhigh schools, we see that as an
added tool.
That makes increasing higher,deeper thinking more, more
practical.
feasible at the middle schooland high school level, but at
the elementary schools, as we'veseen more technology coming to
the classroom, our data tell usthat we're seeing less higher,
(16:02):
deeper thinking because so muchof the software and so much of
the technology that's used inour elementary schools.
is geared towards skillbuilding, and recall numeracy
and literacy.
Tremendous amounts of greatsoftware that help kids learn to
read better, and help them learnto do their math better.
Practice, practice, practice,practice, practice.
(16:23):
But that's usurping time thatthe teacher might have
otherwise, and did previouslyspend, the kids to be hands on,
asking them to think, askingthem to engage with role
playing, asking them to dothings that in that elementary
classroom would have been moreexciting to them.
And the payoff of that still iswe think we'll do better on a
(16:44):
high stakes test.
Because we've got all of thisand we want our kids to have
that numeracy and literacy,we're missing out on asking the
kids to think because that'swhere the biggest payoff comes
in terms of all types oftesting.
The literature has said foryears, we engage kids more in
higher, deeper thinking, thepayoff on testing is there,
(17:06):
whether the test is a higherorder type of test or recall
type of test, because the kidsunderstand, what you're asking
them to learn better by doing itwith more thoughtful learning
experiences.
I don't know if that's kind ofanswering your question, but,
but clearly, to take that alittle further and be very
concrete about it.
From about 20 percent startingpoint, to about 25 to 30 percent
(17:32):
two years in, to about 30 to 35percent to four or five years
in, once technology is foldedinto that.
Now, that moves us toward whereso many psychologists tell us
they like the balance betweenhigher thinking and lower
thinking.
And so it's like growing ittoward a one to one ratio.
(17:53):
Or just a 60 kind of ratio, butincreasing that flow of higher
or deeper thinking opportunitiesinto the classroom for the kids.
Technology is a great boon forthat.
At the middle school and highschool level, at the elementary
level, we've got to figure outhow to use it more effectively.
Track 1 (18:10):
what I take away from that is the, the idea that if
you have a central focus aroundhigher order, deeper thinking.
The technology now has a role ina place, but if you come in and
say, I want technology andyou're not thinking deeper on a,
on a deeper level, it's justtechnology.
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11 (18:33):
you've nailed it.
You've nailed it.
Perfectly.
And see, we've seen the as a,Multipronged process over the
years because we're trying tohelp create a culture in the
school and in the classroomabout the focuses on learning.
seen the IPI as a tool to helpfoster change in instructional
strategies and practices inclassroom.
(18:55):
We've also used the IPI as anoutcome measure for all the
kinds of things that we dobecause you can have a nice
longitudinal plot of how yourkids are thinking.
And we see it as a, intervalmeasure, when we start to see
blips on our radar where we areor not moving in terms of
thinking time in the classroom.
(19:15):
And you get those things fromboth looking at higher or deeper
thinking looking atdisengagement.
Because disengagement is a hugenegative impact on kids
learning.
if we look at a school and ithas 10 percent disengagement.
of time, then those kids in thatschool are missing the
equivalent of three and a halfto four weeks of lost learning
(19:37):
time during that school year.
If we see just five percentdisengagement time, those kids
are missing the equivalent ofone and a half to two weeks of
lost learning time.
And if we should happen to seeand we do happen to see in just
about every state we've workedwith a school or two or a few
who actually have 20 percentStudent disengagement time.
(20:01):
And when you have 20%, thatmeans that those kids are
missing the equivalent of 7.
5 to 8 weeks of lost learningtime during the school year.
And in every case I've lookedat, those are schools that are
on the most struggling list ofacademically successful schools
in a given state.
They are the schools that seemto be at the bottom of the,
(20:22):
ranking of schools academically.
can't expect kids to well intheir learning experience if,
they are not during class timeengaged in learning.
And if that disengagement is20%, there's no way they can
hope to do.
They're missing too much, toomuch learning time.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (20:40):
Well, I tell you at this point in
time, Mark, anything you want tofinish off with any final
statement
Track 1 (20:45):
I think that that final 5 minutes was really powerful
with the data behind it.
It doesn't matter what level aschool is that this kind of
conversation is essential nomatter what with the educators,
whether they're at a lowperforming and struggling and
have 20 percent of disengagementor they're at 5 percent
(21:06):
disengagement and still havestuff going on.
With that data schools thatmight be, 40, 50, 60 percent in
the middle has room for growthand the connection to the
assessments make this essentialbecause then we actually have
student learning.
that's what the assessment issupposed to measure for us, is
whether the kid's learning ornot learning.
(21:28):
it's worthy of having aopportunity to talk to Dr.
Valentine again.
on how to make shifts inside ofschools using this data.
But the big thing is, is.
How to create practices withinschools leadership practices,
daily routines, all thosethings.
That's where you're so powerfulat Brian is getting those things
(21:48):
put into system and schools thatmaybe don't have that.
I really, appreciate Dr.
Valentine's time.
It's obvious that he has done alot of research over the years
to validate the value of thisand then to take other people's
research to support what he'sdoing.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (22:06):
First of all, Mark, thank you.
Dr.
Valentine man, I can sit heresoaking up the knowledge I'm
hearing.
We didn't even get into thediscussion, Mark, about
sustainability and how we'regoing to talk about how we
sustain this in different schooldistricts.
How you want to make sure youcome up with the longitudinal
data.
We didn't even discuss thattoday So yes, I think there may
be an opportunity to come backand speak.
Dr.
Valentine, I hope you don't minddoing that sometime in the near
(22:27):
future.
As
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-2 (22:28):
Glad to.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-2024 (22:29):
All right.
guys, thank you for everything.
we're going to close off, thissession of educational
relevance, Thank you very much.
Bye bye now.
Hello.
Welcome to EducationalRelevance, platform for
experienced educators to shareproven successful strategies to
educate today's leaders be itadministrators, staff members,
and others who work ineducation.
We are honored today to have Dr.
Jerry Valentine with us.
Valentine is a currentlyprofessor emeritus over at
(00:22):
University of Missouri, Dr.
Valentine brings over 50 yearsof tremendous experience to the
educational field.
His strategies have beenutilized in over 35 states
currently in severalinternational countries.
we are so honored to have Dr.
Valentine join us.
I'm also here with my colleagueMr.
Mark Mcbeth.
Mark is educational leader anddone some tremendous work in
(00:45):
states of both Missouri, Kansasand Colorado.
Mark.
Good to see you again, whatwe're going to discuss today,
what's your teachers be doing topromote higher order thinking
strategies and Why should theyincorporate these into the
classrooms?
Mark, I'm going to turn it overto you.
And Dr.
Valentine
Track 1 (01:00):
So thanks, Brian.
So Dr.
Valentine, a while back wetalked about IPI and how you
collect data on studentengagement.
What is the conversation that weshould be having around higher
order and deeper thinking typeof stuff.
And then what's the impact ofthat?
Why do teachers even want tothink about it in the long run?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (01:22):
Well, we know there's a tight
relationship between higher,deeper thinking time and
academic success.
So there's an educational reasonto want to do this.
We want the kids to leave uswith the best skills and thought
processes that we can give them.
know that that there's a linkbetween.
Skills that go with higher ordeeper thinking and what the
(01:43):
business industry folks reallyexpect of the people that work
for them, and we know that we'vegot a society today that is is
proliferated with data frommultiple sources and angles and
views, and we have to beresponsible for that.
Clear thinkers as to what we areat and hearing and good
(02:03):
consumers of that.
And that means we have to becritical thinkers.
We have to be able to analyze.
We have to be able to make goodjudgments in order to be
frankly, good, productive,contributing citizens to the
community.
So higher deeper thinking is, isnot just a.
an educational philosophical,notion that sounds really good
(02:26):
in journals and in papers andother places.
Higher and Deeper Thinking is ais a basic fundamental of what
we expect as a byproduct of oureducational system.
We expect kids to be able to donumeracy and literacy and be
able to read and write and, toremember things and to know
facts and understand history andcivics and science and all.
(02:47):
But we also expect them to beable to think more deeply about
those kinds of things and bemore reflective about it and be
better consumers of it and to bebetter consumers of all.
The things that surround them inlife.
So higher deeper thinking is afundamental skill that we'd love
to generate more of amongst ourstudents, because it means
they're going to be more
Track 1 (03:07):
Aren't we already doing that in the classroom?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-2 (03:09):
some degree we are.
But if you look at the fact thatin any given classroom, typical
classroom across the country,out of a child's classroom day,
they spend about 20 percentengaged in higher, deeper
thinking about 70 to 80 percentengaged in lower order surface
thinking.
And about 5 percent of the time.
Disengage from thought processassociated with the curriculum.
(03:32):
So, we could grow that, andthat's what cognitive
psychologists have told us for along time, if we could grow
that, then we would be doing abetter service to our students.
How much should we grow itbecomes a basic question.
If you look at a bar graph andyou see that, that if this is a
bar graph for higher, deeperthinking, and this is a bar
graph for lower order surfacethinking, skill building, fact
(03:54):
finding recall kinds of things,what we should have happen,
according to most of the peoplewho research and study this, is
we should be working toward abalance between the two, amount
of time, 60%, 40%, 40%, 60%,50%, but it shouldn't be set up
with a bar graph this different,up here at 70 and down here at
(04:14):
25 or something like that, or20, it should be more balanced.
one to one ratio, not a three toone, four to one ratio.
That means we've got a long wayto go.
It means we've got to engagefaculty in understanding the
importance of that for the goodof our kids and the kids that we
send from us after 13 yearstrying to educate them.
So, that's the fundamentalissue.
(04:36):
It produces people who arecapable of thinking more.
The more opportunity studentshave to learn to think more
deeply, more critically, morereflectively, more analytically,
more creatively, in the contextof a curriculum area.
In multiple curriculum areas,the more we engage them in that,
the more they see the biggerpicture, the more they
understand, the more they becomecurious, the more they become
(04:57):
inquisitive, the more theydevelop skills of inquiry think
on their own and be bettercitizens.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-2024_ (05:04):
If I can answer this question,
Mark, always talked about thethree R's rigor, relevance,
relationships.
how does building relationshipswith staff and with teachers
assist this higher orderthinking to be done?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-202 (05:14):
We know that relationships are a
key factor on everybody'sresearch and I mentioned Hattie
just a minute ago, but if youlook at the factors and his
Comprehensive studies and how hestudied everybody else's
research as well, you know,teacher student relationships
are a critical part of thelearning process.
have to have that respect forthe teacher.
They have to have thatappreciation for the teacher.
(05:36):
The teacher has to have thatcollaborative respect, that same
kind of respect for the studentsand the way they work with them.
yeah, relationships areimportant.
What we've also seen, though, aswe help teachers develop more,
engaging, more thoughtfullearning experiences in the
classroom.
We see the kids engaging moreand we see the kids building
(05:56):
more and more respect for theteacher.
The, the quality of the teachinglearning experience that a
teacher puts together in theclassroom Affects the kids in
terms of their attitude, itaffects them in terms of their
motivation, it affects them interms of their commitment, it
affects them in terms of theamount of time they're willing
to invest in the learningprocess.
(06:16):
Children, build off of thatteacher.
That teacher's energy, thatteacher's enthusiasm, that
teacher's honesty, thatteacher's Personality and that
teacher's knowledge of subjectmatter and important as anything
in all of that in helping builda relationship, I think, is that
teacher's ability to createreally high quality learning
experiences for the kids thatasks them to understand
(06:40):
fundamentals and go beyond thatto have a deep appreciation of
the content area and the subjectthat they're talking about,
whether that's first grade orwhether that's 12th
Track 1 (06:48):
What's the difference between really that defining
factor of giving theminformation and having them
process and think information?
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-202 (06:58):
we basically, in the IPI process,
instructional practice,inventory process of codifying
how kids are cognitivelyengaged.
We basically have started intosix categories.
Two of the categories are abouthigher, deeper thinking.
And to achieve higher, deeperthinking, you have to find ways
to.
Mentally engage the kids inanalysis and in problem solving
(07:19):
and in reflection and increativity, et cetera.
Well, you take that and you lookat two other two categories in
the IPI process are also aboutlower order surface thinking
primarily.
Is it, the learning processteacher led, teacher directed?
Is the teacher doing the thingand the kids are sitting back
passively processing?
Just as somebody watching thispodcast is doing right now,
(07:40):
they're sitting back passivelyprocessing while we provide
insights, and one, anothercategory, actually two more in
the IAPI process are about Whenthe kids are busy doing seat
work, practice work, etc.
And is the teacher attentive toand focused on the kids?
Or is the teacher attentive, notattentive to and focused on the
kids?
So three categories there thatare about lower order surface
(08:02):
thinking.
Rigor understanding and having agood foundation of facts and
figures and basic knowledge.
But rigor doesn't stop there.
Although, albeit too muchtesting tends to stop there,
rigor is all about we take thatfoundational knowledge and go
(08:23):
deeper and deeper and deeperwith it in order to understand
it so well that we become, welearn to appreciate science, we
learn to appreciate literature.
to understand it and are curiousabout it and want to absorb
more.
We learn to become a learner whois a self learner.
create student centeredclassrooms where instead of the
(08:46):
teacher talking at and spendingall that time informing kids,
engages kids in that.
And we've also learned that oneof the most powerful forms of
learning for our kids is How tocreate collaborative learning
amongst the students, whether Iput the kids in pairs, triads,
quartets, quintets, or have awhole class discussion, it
doesn't seem to matter, as longas the students are learning to
(09:07):
cooperate and collaborate witheach other, because the more
they do that, more they learnfrom each other, the deeper is
their understanding, the broaderis their perspective of the
content and appreciation of it,the more they recall.
Because when we have to talksomething through and just
discuss it with others, itincreases our recall.
So, for the kids, rigor, rigordoesn't mean just facts and
(09:35):
figures, being able to rattleoff ten presidents names in a
row a certain era.
It's about understanding thecontributions of those
presidents to history and theirimpact on it throughout history.
Both president and later it'sall about asking the kids to be
more thoughtful, engaginglearning participants, because
(09:57):
that's what will carry them allinto life.
Not a whole bunch of facts thatthey had to memorize and we'll
soon forget their tests on ahigh stakes test score.
That doesn't take that intoaccount.
Assessments are valuable.
We have to learn how to how tobuild formative and summative
assessments that really get at achild's understanding of
something, depth of knowledge ofsomething.
(10:18):
yet we find states giving up onthat because to really score
statewide assessments that haverigor to them that are engaged
with, if you will, recall issuesand more higher order issues,
coding and scoring of the higherorder issues it's expensive.
It's much more complex thanscoring, you know, multiple
choice answers on a high stakestest.
(10:41):
So
Track 1 (10:42):
So, that's made me think of a question.
aren't you going to get kickbackfrom teachers thinking about
this?
Because it is harder to do
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (10:50):
Yeah, it is harder to do by and large.
Kick back.
we hear the, struggles thatteachers have all the time as we
work with schools, you know, wecould be in the course of a
single year working with 50, ahundred schools the IPI process,
helping them learn how to put itin place and work through it.
And we're constantly seeingteachers.
Who want to help theircolleagues because the teachers
(11:13):
that I get to work with are theteachers who will lead the
process in the school.
Now, when I sit down with themas they begin the process, when
I sit down with them a year intothe process, when I sit down
with them five years into theprocess and we start talking and
debriefing, what they continueto say is, boy, it's a struggle
to get my colleagues to be opento looking at this because
(11:35):
They've been teaching a certainway for a long period of time or
for a short period of time andthat's how they learned and they
tend to repeat and repeat andrepeat and you know the only
answer you got on that one is ifyou keep doing the same thing
and keep repeating the samething you keep getting the same
thing well that's basically whywe have to look at how do we
help teachers grow just a littlebit each year in terms of
(11:57):
expanding their repertoire ofstrategies so that those
strategies move more and morefrom a certain percent of time
being a lower order and now moveto a higher percent of time
being higher order you've got totake that time from somewhere
and once you eliminatedisengagement during class time
now you've got to start pullingwhere do we keep growing higher
order we have to start pullingit from lower order time Without
(12:21):
sacrificing the importance oflower order.
I talk to teachers all the timeabout you need a certain amount
of lower, a certain amount ofhigher order, and you've got to
have both because both is whatgood teaching is.
So in the IPI coding world, wetalk about, you have to have a
lot of threes, a lot of fours, alot of fives, and a lot of
sixes.
The threes and fours areessential.
lower order and the fives andsixes are essential.
(12:42):
They're higher order.
And we've got to take and reduceone and grow the other in order
to get the kinds of experienceswe need with our kids.
Track 1 (12:51):
good.
But
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (12:52):
Well, let me ask this question here
for me.
Two things.
One the day and time teachers,you talk about strategy,
teachers are incorporatingtechnology their classrooms on a
regular basis right now.
How would you use theinstructional practice inventory
and help teach us how toincorporate this along the
technology in the classroom?
Okay.
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11- (13:11):
We've really had some fun looking at
technology.
When I built this process, oneto one wasn't even really on the
horizon.
It didn't seem in most schools.
By, and that was in 19 95, 96.
By 2000, it was starting to betalked about as we're collecting
data in the early two thousands,we're seeing schools that now
have, more sophisticatedprojection systems and a,
(13:32):
computer in the classroom forthe teacher.
And then as we go a littlefurther into the two thousands,
we're now starting to seeschools that have technology in
the hands of kids.
And by 2010, I am, I'm thinking,God, I wish I would've figured
out the time to have done thisbefore, but I gotta do it now.
We have to add a technologycomponent to the IPI process.
It measures how kids arethinking when they're using
(13:53):
technology vis a vis how kidsare thinking when they're not
using technology, and how istechnology being used in the
classroom to support and fosterlearning, particularly higher
order and remove and reducedisengagement.
So by 2011 we put in place andhave been using now for the last
13 14 years an additionalcomponent gives us insight as to
how kids are thinking.
(14:15):
they are engaging when theteacher is using technology as a
tool to engage them with thelearning experience, and we
found that as teachers get ayear or 2 under the belt of how
to use the technology, and ifthey're part of the which means.
They're looking at data on aregular basis of how their kids
are thinking.
(14:35):
They're trying to findstrategies for improving that
thinking that we now have atool, a piece of technology that
can be a great boon to that,because there's so much that a
piece of technology in theclassroom can bring to enhancing
the opportunities to createhigher, deeper thinking.
And that's what we've seen inthe numbers, a typical school.
(14:55):
My start out with 20 percenthigher deeper thinking, and
that's extremely common acrossthe country, a school that's not
focused on cognitive engagement,a school that is not looking at
at how our kids are thinking andtrying to do something special
with it.
Now, once schools start to focuson that, we typically see that
20 percent up to 25%.
(15:17):
Sometimes right at around orunder 30, and I've had the
fortune of having data frombefore schools start using
technology in a very persistent,pervasive kind of way today
where they are.
And we've seen as technologygets starts to come into the
(15:40):
picture at middle schools andhigh schools, we see that as an
added tool.
That makes increasing higher,deeper thinking more, more
practical.
feasible at the middle schooland high school level, but at
the elementary schools, as we'veseen more technology coming to
the classroom, our data tell usthat we're seeing less higher,
(16:02):
deeper thinking because so muchof the software and so much of
the technology that's used inour elementary schools.
is geared towards skillbuilding, and recall numeracy
and literacy.
Tremendous amounts of greatsoftware that help kids learn to
read better, and help them learnto do their math better.
Practice, practice, practice,practice, practice.
(16:23):
But that's usurping time thatthe teacher might have
otherwise, and did previouslyspend, the kids to be hands on,
asking them to think, askingthem to engage with role
playing, asking them to dothings that in that elementary
classroom would have been moreexciting to them.
And the payoff of that still iswe think we'll do better on a
(16:44):
high stakes test.
Because we've got all of thisand we want our kids to have
that numeracy and literacy,we're missing out on asking the
kids to think because that'swhere the biggest payoff comes
in terms of all types oftesting.
The literature has said foryears, we engage kids more in
higher, deeper thinking, thepayoff on testing is there,
(17:06):
whether the test is a higherorder type of test or recall
type of test, because the kidsunderstand, what you're asking
them to learn better by doing itwith more thoughtful learning
experiences.
I don't know if that's kind ofanswering your question, but,
but clearly, to take that alittle further and be very
concrete about it.
From about 20 percent startingpoint, to about 25 to 30 percent
(17:32):
two years in, to about 30 to 35percent to four or five years
in, once technology is foldedinto that.
Now, that moves us toward whereso many psychologists tell us
they like the balance betweenhigher thinking and lower
thinking.
And so it's like growing ittoward a one to one ratio.
(17:53):
Or just a 60 kind of ratio, butincreasing that flow of higher
or deeper thinking opportunitiesinto the classroom for the kids.
Technology is a great boon forthat.
At the middle school and highschool level, at the elementary
level, we've got to figure outhow to use it more effectively.
Track 1 (18:10):
what I take away from that is the, the idea that if
you have a central focus aroundhigher order, deeper thinking.
The technology now has a role ina place, but if you come in and
say, I want technology andyou're not thinking deeper on a,
on a deeper level, it's justtechnology.
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11 (18:33):
you've nailed it.
You've nailed it.
Perfectly.
And see, we've seen the as a,Multipronged process over the
years because we're trying tohelp create a culture in the
school and in the classroomabout the focuses on learning.
seen the IPI as a tool to helpfoster change in instructional
strategies and practices inclassroom.
(18:55):
We've also used the IPI as anoutcome measure for all the
kinds of things that we dobecause you can have a nice
longitudinal plot of how yourkids are thinking.
And we see it as a, intervalmeasure, when we start to see
blips on our radar where we areor not moving in terms of
thinking time in the classroom.
(19:15):
And you get those things fromboth looking at higher or deeper
thinking looking atdisengagement.
Because disengagement is a hugenegative impact on kids
learning.
if we look at a school and ithas 10 percent disengagement.
of time, then those kids in thatschool are missing the
equivalent of three and a halfto four weeks of lost learning
(19:37):
time during that school year.
If we see just five percentdisengagement time, those kids
are missing the equivalent ofone and a half to two weeks of
lost learning time.
And if we should happen to seeand we do happen to see in just
about every state we've workedwith a school or two or a few
who actually have 20 percentStudent disengagement time.
(20:01):
And when you have 20%, thatmeans that those kids are
missing the equivalent of 7.
5 to 8 weeks of lost learningtime during the school year.
And in every case I've lookedat, those are schools that are
on the most struggling list ofacademically successful schools
in a given state.
They are the schools that seemto be at the bottom of the,
(20:22):
ranking of schools academically.
can't expect kids to well intheir learning experience if,
they are not during class timeengaged in learning.
And if that disengagement is20%, there's no way they can
hope to do.
They're missing too much, toomuch learning time.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (20:40):
Well, I tell you at this point in
time, Mark, anything you want tofinish off with any final
statement
Track 1 (20:45):
I think that that final 5 minutes was really powerful
with the data behind it.
It doesn't matter what level aschool is that this kind of
conversation is essential nomatter what with the educators,
whether they're at a lowperforming and struggling and
have 20 percent of disengagementor they're at 5 percent
(21:06):
disengagement and still havestuff going on.
With that data schools thatmight be, 40, 50, 60 percent in
the middle has room for growthand the connection to the
assessments make this essentialbecause then we actually have
student learning.
that's what the assessment issupposed to measure for us, is
whether the kid's learning ornot learning.
(21:28):
it's worthy of having aopportunity to talk to Dr.
Valentine again.
on how to make shifts inside ofschools using this data.
But the big thing is, is.
How to create practices withinschools leadership practices,
daily routines, all thosethings.
That's where you're so powerfulat Brian is getting those things
(21:48):
put into system and schools thatmaybe don't have that.
I really, appreciate Dr.
Valentine's time.
It's obvious that he has done alot of research over the years
to validate the value of thisand then to take other people's
research to support what he'sdoing.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-20 (22:06):
First of all, Mark, thank you.
Dr.
Valentine man, I can sit heresoaking up the knowledge I'm
hearing.
We didn't even get into thediscussion, Mark, about
sustainability and how we'regoing to talk about how we
sustain this in different schooldistricts.
How you want to make sure youcome up with the longitudinal
data.
We didn't even discuss thattoday So yes, I think there may
be an opportunity to come backand speak.
Dr.
Valentine, I hope you don't minddoing that sometime in the near
(22:27):
future.
As
squadcaster-6ia1_2_04-11-2 (22:28):
Glad to.
bryan-r-wright_2_04-11-2024 (22:29):
All right.
guys, thank you for everything.
we're going to close off, thissession of educational
relevance, Thank you very much.
Bye bye now.
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