October 22, 2024 • 17 mins
Welcome to our exciting new series focused on School Discipline and Classroom Management. In this four-part exploration, we aim to empower educators with effective strategies and insights from experienced professionals in the field. Each session will feature guest speakers who have successfully navigated the challenges of discipline and management, offering proven methods that can be adapted to various educational environments.
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
If you found value in today’s episode, share it with a colleague, subscribe, and leave us a review. It helps us keep bringing you conversations that matter.
Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Educational
(00:02):
Relevance, a platform forexperienced educators to share
their proven successfulstrategies to educate today's
students.
I am Bryan Wright.
I'm an adjunct professor.
At Concordia University in,Wisconsin, With me today is Mark
Macbeth proven author.
excellent administrator in hisown right.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (00:23):
How are you doing?
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (00:24):
All right.
today, we're going to start afour part series, a new series
on, school discipline andclassroom management.
the work that professionals aredoing in public and private
education is exceptional workingwith our kids these days.
We commend and acknowledge thefact that they are doing a fine
(00:44):
job and working very hard attheir craft.
What we want to do is make surewe enhance What they're doing in
those classrooms and in thoseschools, Mark.
And that's what we want to do.
So we want to make sure we canassist in that endeavor.
Mark, what do you think?
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (00:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, educating kids todayis harder than it's ever been.
So we never want to take awayfrom the hard work that people
are doing.
But, the idea is always toenhance and change practices to,
increase student learning.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (01:11):
Okay.
So, and here's how we're goingto do it in this four part
process The 1st one going to be,somebody from the administrative
background is going to talkabout how they incorporated this
school discipline and classroommanagement from an
administrative perspective.
We're going to have a trainer,somebody who's done restorative
practices, and she's going tocome on and join us and she's
going to talk about how we, youcan train others to meet these
(01:35):
successes in these schools.
A third we want to talk about isgetting a teacher who's done
this as far as classroommanagement and the things they
did to make sure they keptacademics at a high while using
a classroom discipline as low.
And then the last one we'regoing to do is get someone from
central office and talk about,give us an overall perspective
with central office is wantingto do and how they wanted to get
(01:56):
it done so they can make surethat, the test scores and data
remains a high in their schools,in their district, but at the
same time, establishing methodsand ideologies.
How every kid can be treatedwith respect and
mark_2_10-16-2024_10265 (02:10):
dignity Sounds perfect.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (02:11):
Mark, So Mark, let me start with this
first question.
Why is code, so important whenwe talk about establishing,
classroom management.
As well as, an administrator,setting up,
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (02:20):
Yeah, so let's reflect back that we
just did a multi series on thefour C's when we talk about
classroom management, when wetalk about discipline in the
school, we're talking aboutclimate.
Code is essential, for,everybody in the building to
understand the direction forwhich we're going.
(02:43):
So student learning first,rigor, relevance, relationships,
generates results.
Yours hits right at home here.
Respect law, respect is earned,not just given, but common
courtesy is demanded fromeveryone.
I mean, that just, hits homewith exactly what you're talking
about.
If you have that respect foreveryone, that common courtesy,
(03:05):
we're gonna have studentlearning as an outcome.
And so code has to be adirection center.
And if that code's missingdiscipline, classroom
management, the procedures andprocesses that administrators or
teachers create just don'texist.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (03:23):
Let me join in on that, Mark, when
you're talking about code, wealways make sure we talk about
establishing a code, somethingthat's consistent, something
that teachers know that you'regoing to Follow every single
day.
I always say, why does somebodywant to follow you if they don't
know where you're coming from?
And you don't have a policythat, educational philosophy, as
it were in place that didn'tknow you going
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (03:45):
yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (03:46):
Every single day.
And once you establish that,that code, that's an educational
philosophy.
People know what you're going todo, how you're going to do it.
And that's the same thing.
in the classroom.
Kids will follow teachers.
They think this teacher's aboutthis and this teacher cares
about what this is.
And once you establish that withthe students and students feel
(04:06):
comfortable with that, they willadhere to what you're talking
about.
And you mentioned my respectlaw, respect is earned, not just
given the common courteousdemanded.
One of the things I talk aboutin the school when I talk to
students, I will tell students,I will never disrespect you.
And I say that to every singlekid I talked to when I go talk
to classes, but they've asked meto talk to classes.
I said, I will never disrespectyou, but I'm not going
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (04:28):
right
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (04:30):
me.
We're going to talk about, weinstead of me, And that was the
conversation Mark I hadyesterday in a classroom of
fifth graders.
So we're not talking about highschool seniors.
We're talking about fifthgraders and they agreed with it
and they understood it.
I said, is there any question?
No, no.
Do you want to say I'm talkingabout?
Yes, we do.
And that's bringing to my lastpoint.
We want to recognize kids andhonor student intelligence, our
(04:54):
students are highly intelligentand highly gifted.
All we got to do is make sure wegive
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (04:58):
Yeah
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (04:59):
to show us how they're doing it.
And students have so manydifferent gifts, Mark, in so
many different ways.
And that's why when I spoke tothem not only was it a great
conversation, but it was also agive and take.
Give them an opportunity forfeedback.
What do you think?
you understand what we weretalking about?
Did you have any questions?
And giving them an opportunityto say, hey, yeah, this is
something I did not know.
(05:20):
Or this is something I didn'tunderstand.
Can you help explain it?
And then that became aconversation that was very
positive.
And the teacher who was therewas supportive of that
conversation.
And I asked teacher, can youhelp me out with this?
And can you continue theconversation we're having?
And the teacher did that.
So it became a we thing, not ame thing, but a we thing.
And that's the whole idea about,
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (05:39):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_1027 (05:40):
getting everybody
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (05:40):
in reality, kids in, even first
grade know when things areappropriate and when they're
not.
They know when there's effectiveclassroom management and when
there's not.
They know when there'sexpectations and when there's
not.
They know what the expectationis.
Now, whether they live that istwo different things, because
(06:04):
it's whether it is reinforcedwith routines and daily
practices that allow it to comeout.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (06:14):
Mark, You know, students are the first
ones to recognize bad, behavior.
And they'll go tell the teacher,they'll go tell someone.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (06:21):
Yeah.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_10273 (06:22):
acting bad in class.
they'll tell you.
know, Marzano years ago said thenumber one factor governing
student learning.
It's classroom management.
And so when I first heard that,I'm like, you know, that's
absolutely correct.
I think, you start gettingsuccesses in the classroom, then
everybody benefits.
(06:43):
The students benefit, data getsimproved.
Now everybody likes to readabout data and hear about
successful data strategies, butthen all of a sudden the school
climate is improved.
And that's what we're talkingabout right now.
And that's why the 4C plan is soimportant because we're
discussing enhancing schoolclimate at the same time,
reducing, Stress levels ofteachers as they're continuing
(07:05):
and they're successful venturetrying to get kids to learn in
that classroom.
So Mark, we also want to makesure we talk about what happens
Mark when Teachers do notorganize
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (07:15):
the kids will find their own way to
organize however they want todo.
And then the teacher becomesresponsive to that behavior.
And then that's where classroomstruggles come in.
So it's, always Leadershippractices shape the practices of
followers.
A teacher in the classroom is aleader.
It shapes the practices of thefollowers.
(07:37):
At the same time, followersreaction or practice themselves
shape leadership practice.
And in doing so, if we allow thefollowers to shape us in a way
that is nonproductive then theteacher or that leader will
respond in that way.
And their practices start toshape around that.
(07:59):
So the leader has to have thatcode that that previous practice
of saying, this is how it'sdone.
And then when the kids react tothat.
To that ongoing practice andexpectation is when success
happens.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (08:14):
And you said something I thought is
real important, You said, we'renot talking negative, but we are
talking about non productive.
When a teacher's non productive,you can take a look at their
data.
What kids are learning, are thekids improving?
Is AYP, Average Yearly Progress,something that they're or the
standards they want to reach?
(08:34):
These things all come out andit's not that we're trying to be
negative to a teacher.
What we're trying to do rightnow is enhance their
instruction, what they're doingin class so we can make sure
they reach levels of successwith their students the same
time, not getting a situationwhere they deal with so much
discipline
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (08:50):
Yeah.
And I think it's also essentialthat we have the conversation
around, even though we'retalking about classroom
management and discipline typeof issues, we're really talking
about instruction and learningand We had a, we had a guest on
once Jerry Valentine.
he shared some data with us thatshowed that when students are
(09:11):
disengaged from learning or in astagnant receiving type of
learning atmosphere, thatstudent classroom discipline Is
accelerated.
It's higher.
The higher level thinking thatkids are doing inside the
classroom, the more problemsolving they're doing.
The more higher engagementsituations, classroom management
(09:34):
was down.
And so instruction has anessential role in thinking about
classroom management.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (09:42):
Oh, absolutely.
So let's take this on a broaderscale.
Let's talk about schooldiscipline and how important it
is, Mark that we mentioned codethat the principal needs to
develop a code so that theteachers can see what they're
doing and following what's goingon.
But also, Mark, when we'retalking about incorporating, and
this is something I think it'simportant, incorporating the we
(10:03):
aspect so that teachers knowwhat's being said, but so
secretaries.
So does educational assistance.
So does everybody in the schoolwho works there have the same
belief system saying this iswhat we're about.
This is what we're going to doso that people hear it all the
time.
(10:23):
If you don't mind me sayingthis, Mark, I remember I was at
a school and I talked aboutwhere the best school in the
state of Wisconsin.
I think I told you that we're,we're saying it every day.
So I decided not to say a coupleof days.
I'm all right.
people are getting tired of it.
And they came to me.
Why are we not the best school,Wisconsin anymore?
sorry about that.
Sorry.
We're going to keep and causepeople believe that and people
(10:43):
started hearing it and theysaid, Hey, this is what we're
about.
so that's why Mark, I'm going toask you to expound about the
laser conversations you had,Mark, when you talked
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (10:52):
yeah.
bryan_2_10-16-2024 (10:52):
conversation with teachers.
How did you get that idea ofbeing
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (10:57):
So
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (10:57):
you came from?
mark_2_10-16-2024_102 (10:57):
essential is when, when we're establishing
our turnarounds or when we'reworking on enhancing our present
practices, we, we have tocontinue to really know what's
going on, what's happening now.
when we have reflectiveconversations, And we think
deeper ourselves, just likewe're trying to get kids to do
(11:19):
in the classroom.
We can get people to acknowledgetheir practices.
So laser conversations I reallylike it.
You know, if I go into aclassroom and I'm in there for
one or two minutes, my, thelongest conversation I should
have with that teacher is one totwo minutes, or three minutes
about what I saw in thatclassroom.
But what you really want them todo is think deeper about their
(11:39):
own practice.
Not about, hey, why did Jimmyreact this way?
More of, how did you re engageJimmy?
When you were over there talkingto him, I couldn't hear, you
know, what was it that you didthat really put Jimmy back on on
track?
What was the engagement that youdid?
What was the deeper thought thatyou gave Jimmy?
(12:01):
What was the result of this typeof interaction that happened?
I saw you correct the entireclassroom.
How did it go after I left?
How did you feel that yoursituation went?
We're thinking we're gettingthem to think deeper and deeper
about their practices.
Once people know what they do,because even the greatest
(12:24):
teachers sometimes don't knowwhy they do what they do.
They just do it.
And we want them to think deeperabout it.
And that's where laserconversations come in.
I have these poignant side byside.
I never face a teacher face onwhen I'm having these
conversations.
I'm always shoulder to shoulder.
setting in a chair or standingagainst the wall with them
(12:47):
during passing time or whateverit is.
And I'm having these very, veryshort conversations about deeper
level thinking.
And we as a school, we have toknow what practices are taking
place from our administratorperspective, what we're doing,
what teachers are doing Youcan't enhance anything if you
don't know what already existsand what the results are
(13:08):
associated with.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (13:09):
I appreciate you talking about
laser conversation because we'retalking about, we're talking
about being positive.
We're talking about beingsupportive.
We're not talking about to benegative and trying to come down
on anyone we're talking abouthow can we enhance your
instruction and help you out inyour classroom?
And the one thing with thiswhole conversation we're having
right now, we're not talkingabout what you're teaching.
(13:30):
All right.
That's the one thing we did notmention what you're
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (13:32):
It's later.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (13:33):
We think it's going to be important
to students, but what we'retalking about, what can we
assist in getting you to a pointwhere you feel comfortable that
what you're teaching is going tobe beneficial to that student.
that's what we're talking about.
And that's why when we'rediscussing it, it's a, we go
thing.
It's a, we thing, not a he thingor a she thing.
It's a, we thing we're talking.
And that's why the educationalcode becomes so important
(13:56):
because now you have somethingthat's your basis.
That's your thing.
You hang your hat on.
And then you say, this is what,this is what I'm about.
And you can join me insupporting me in this regard.
This can be what we're about.
And if they want to make someadjustments in that, they do
every
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:11):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (14:12):
a mission statement.
Every school I have is that nohas a mission statement.
Then when I go into a school, Iasked some a teacher what's the
mission statement.
They're looking at me like, Idon't know what I'm talking
about.
I know we got one, but, and see,that's what we're talking about.
We want to make sure it'ssomething simple that we believe
in as a staff.
Something we believe in that wecan share with students and then
in their own way having studentsto
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:32):
yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (14:32):
as well.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:33):
it's it's absolutely the link and,
you know, and one of the thingswe talked about recently, too,
was discipline matrix that weworked on.
If you have that code the matrixthen makes all the sense in the
workplace.
Because everything fits insideof that, that match, right?
Because we know what theexpectation is across the entire
(14:55):
school.
Because in the disciplinematrix, we talk about teacher
behaviors and how teachers willreact.
And we talk about howadministrators will react when
kids come to the classroom.
And then we teach the kids theexpectations overall.
Right.
So, so everybody understandswhat the code is.
(15:15):
It fits.
If you try to create adiscipline matrix and you don't
know what the code is in yourbuilding, how do you ever
enforce it?
How does it ever make sense?
How does it ever carry on?
It doesn't.
So you have a discipline policyand in your student handbook,
but what is it that that'scircling around?
(15:36):
What, is it that encompassesthat, that I can always say?
it was about the respect.
It was about respect.
It was, you know, it was aboutwhether students are learning or
not learning.
That's when we have those kindof conversations because we now
have something to build itaround.
And and so I think those thingsare, are essential to be able to
build that plan when, whenyou're doing Discipline Matrix.
(16:00):
You know, one of the schoolsthat you're assisting right now
sounds like at some point theyneed the discipline matrix, but
they got to get a few morethings.
They got to go through the data.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (16:08):
Well, let me make sure I say, because
you mentioned discipline matrix.
The best thing about disciplinematrix is when you don't have to
enforce it
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (16:16):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (16:16):
and not use it as discipline.
The discipline matrix isdesigned in theory to make sure,
these are things that we want tomake sure every teacher is going
to be consistent about whatthey're going to do in their
classroom.
And how are we going to do it ina school wide procedure?
the best thing about this formatrix and I've had been in
schools where quite frankly, wehad very little discipline.
We didn't even, we need amatrix, but the point being
(16:38):
made, we established policiesand procedures.
the discipline matrix was there,but it was rarely needed.
And that was things we talkedabout when we were discussing
schools.
So Mark, here's what we're goingto do.
I appreciate this conversationtoday.
we're going to have a guestspeaker next week.
former administrator, Mark, whois going to talk to us about
school discipline and classroommanagement and his own unique
(17:00):
way and how he was successful.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (17:02):
I think that's really good.
I think the biggest thing is, iskeeping in mind that this is an
opportunity to listen to somepodcasts that can enhance.
Not only a classroom practice ifwe need to in the future as an
individual teacher listening tothis, but as administrators
(17:23):
listening to it on the wholeschool system and how they can
engage those other adults in thebuilding.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_ (17:31):
Absolutely.
with that.
Mark is good talking to you asalways.
Everybody who's listening, havea great day and we'll be back
with you again, with this, ourstarting our new process, take
care of everyone.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to Educational
(00:02):
Relevance, a platform forexperienced educators to share
their proven successfulstrategies to educate today's
students.
I am Bryan Wright.
I'm an adjunct professor.
At Concordia University in,Wisconsin, With me today is Mark
Macbeth proven author.
excellent administrator in hisown right.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (00:23):
How are you doing?
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (00:24):
All right.
today, we're going to start afour part series, a new series
on, school discipline andclassroom management.
the work that professionals aredoing in public and private
education is exceptional workingwith our kids these days.
We commend and acknowledge thefact that they are doing a fine
(00:44):
job and working very hard attheir craft.
What we want to do is make surewe enhance What they're doing in
those classrooms and in thoseschools, Mark.
And that's what we want to do.
So we want to make sure we canassist in that endeavor.
Mark, what do you think?
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (00:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, educating kids todayis harder than it's ever been.
So we never want to take awayfrom the hard work that people
are doing.
But, the idea is always toenhance and change practices to,
increase student learning.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (01:11):
Okay.
So, and here's how we're goingto do it in this four part
process The 1st one going to be,somebody from the administrative
background is going to talkabout how they incorporated this
school discipline and classroommanagement from an
administrative perspective.
We're going to have a trainer,somebody who's done restorative
practices, and she's going tocome on and join us and she's
going to talk about how we, youcan train others to meet these
(01:35):
successes in these schools.
A third we want to talk about isgetting a teacher who's done
this as far as classroommanagement and the things they
did to make sure they keptacademics at a high while using
a classroom discipline as low.
And then the last one we'regoing to do is get someone from
central office and talk about,give us an overall perspective
with central office is wantingto do and how they wanted to get
(01:56):
it done so they can make surethat, the test scores and data
remains a high in their schools,in their district, but at the
same time, establishing methodsand ideologies.
How every kid can be treatedwith respect and
mark_2_10-16-2024_10265 (02:10):
dignity Sounds perfect.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (02:11):
Mark, So Mark, let me start with this
first question.
Why is code, so important whenwe talk about establishing,
classroom management.
As well as, an administrator,setting up,
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (02:20):
Yeah, so let's reflect back that we
just did a multi series on thefour C's when we talk about
classroom management, when wetalk about discipline in the
school, we're talking aboutclimate.
Code is essential, for,everybody in the building to
understand the direction forwhich we're going.
(02:43):
So student learning first,rigor, relevance, relationships,
generates results.
Yours hits right at home here.
Respect law, respect is earned,not just given, but common
courtesy is demanded fromeveryone.
I mean, that just, hits homewith exactly what you're talking
about.
If you have that respect foreveryone, that common courtesy,
(03:05):
we're gonna have studentlearning as an outcome.
And so code has to be adirection center.
And if that code's missingdiscipline, classroom
management, the procedures andprocesses that administrators or
teachers create just don'texist.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (03:23):
Let me join in on that, Mark, when
you're talking about code, wealways make sure we talk about
establishing a code, somethingthat's consistent, something
that teachers know that you'regoing to Follow every single
day.
I always say, why does somebodywant to follow you if they don't
know where you're coming from?
And you don't have a policythat, educational philosophy, as
it were in place that didn'tknow you going
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (03:45):
yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (03:46):
Every single day.
And once you establish that,that code, that's an educational
philosophy.
People know what you're going todo, how you're going to do it.
And that's the same thing.
in the classroom.
Kids will follow teachers.
They think this teacher's aboutthis and this teacher cares
about what this is.
And once you establish that withthe students and students feel
(04:06):
comfortable with that, they willadhere to what you're talking
about.
And you mentioned my respectlaw, respect is earned, not just
given the common courteousdemanded.
One of the things I talk aboutin the school when I talk to
students, I will tell students,I will never disrespect you.
And I say that to every singlekid I talked to when I go talk
to classes, but they've asked meto talk to classes.
I said, I will never disrespectyou, but I'm not going
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (04:28):
right
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (04:30):
me.
We're going to talk about, weinstead of me, And that was the
conversation Mark I hadyesterday in a classroom of
fifth graders.
So we're not talking about highschool seniors.
We're talking about fifthgraders and they agreed with it
and they understood it.
I said, is there any question?
No, no.
Do you want to say I'm talkingabout?
Yes, we do.
And that's bringing to my lastpoint.
We want to recognize kids andhonor student intelligence, our
(04:54):
students are highly intelligentand highly gifted.
All we got to do is make sure wegive
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (04:58):
Yeah
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (04:59):
to show us how they're doing it.
And students have so manydifferent gifts, Mark, in so
many different ways.
And that's why when I spoke tothem not only was it a great
conversation, but it was also agive and take.
Give them an opportunity forfeedback.
What do you think?
you understand what we weretalking about?
Did you have any questions?
And giving them an opportunityto say, hey, yeah, this is
something I did not know.
(05:20):
Or this is something I didn'tunderstand.
Can you help explain it?
And then that became aconversation that was very
positive.
And the teacher who was therewas supportive of that
conversation.
And I asked teacher, can youhelp me out with this?
And can you continue theconversation we're having?
And the teacher did that.
So it became a we thing, not ame thing, but a we thing.
And that's the whole idea about,
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (05:39):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_1027 (05:40):
getting everybody
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (05:40):
in reality, kids in, even first
grade know when things areappropriate and when they're
not.
They know when there's effectiveclassroom management and when
there's not.
They know when there'sexpectations and when there's
not.
They know what the expectationis.
Now, whether they live that istwo different things, because
(06:04):
it's whether it is reinforcedwith routines and daily
practices that allow it to comeout.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (06:14):
Mark, You know, students are the first
ones to recognize bad, behavior.
And they'll go tell the teacher,they'll go tell someone.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (06:21):
Yeah.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_10273 (06:22):
acting bad in class.
they'll tell you.
know, Marzano years ago said thenumber one factor governing
student learning.
It's classroom management.
And so when I first heard that,I'm like, you know, that's
absolutely correct.
I think, you start gettingsuccesses in the classroom, then
everybody benefits.
(06:43):
The students benefit, data getsimproved.
Now everybody likes to readabout data and hear about
successful data strategies, butthen all of a sudden the school
climate is improved.
And that's what we're talkingabout right now.
And that's why the 4C plan is soimportant because we're
discussing enhancing schoolclimate at the same time,
reducing, Stress levels ofteachers as they're continuing
(07:05):
and they're successful venturetrying to get kids to learn in
that classroom.
So Mark, we also want to makesure we talk about what happens
Mark when Teachers do notorganize
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (07:15):
the kids will find their own way to
organize however they want todo.
And then the teacher becomesresponsive to that behavior.
And then that's where classroomstruggles come in.
So it's, always Leadershippractices shape the practices of
followers.
A teacher in the classroom is aleader.
It shapes the practices of thefollowers.
(07:37):
At the same time, followersreaction or practice themselves
shape leadership practice.
And in doing so, if we allow thefollowers to shape us in a way
that is nonproductive then theteacher or that leader will
respond in that way.
And their practices start toshape around that.
(07:59):
So the leader has to have thatcode that that previous practice
of saying, this is how it'sdone.
And then when the kids react tothat.
To that ongoing practice andexpectation is when success
happens.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (08:14):
And you said something I thought is
real important, You said, we'renot talking negative, but we are
talking about non productive.
When a teacher's non productive,you can take a look at their
data.
What kids are learning, are thekids improving?
Is AYP, Average Yearly Progress,something that they're or the
standards they want to reach?
(08:34):
These things all come out andit's not that we're trying to be
negative to a teacher.
What we're trying to do rightnow is enhance their
instruction, what they're doingin class so we can make sure
they reach levels of successwith their students the same
time, not getting a situationwhere they deal with so much
discipline
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (08:50):
Yeah.
And I think it's also essentialthat we have the conversation
around, even though we'retalking about classroom
management and discipline typeof issues, we're really talking
about instruction and learningand We had a, we had a guest on
once Jerry Valentine.
he shared some data with us thatshowed that when students are
(09:11):
disengaged from learning or in astagnant receiving type of
learning atmosphere, thatstudent classroom discipline Is
accelerated.
It's higher.
The higher level thinking thatkids are doing inside the
classroom, the more problemsolving they're doing.
The more higher engagementsituations, classroom management
(09:34):
was down.
And so instruction has anessential role in thinking about
classroom management.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (09:42):
Oh, absolutely.
So let's take this on a broaderscale.
Let's talk about schooldiscipline and how important it
is, Mark that we mentioned codethat the principal needs to
develop a code so that theteachers can see what they're
doing and following what's goingon.
But also, Mark, when we'retalking about incorporating, and
this is something I think it'simportant, incorporating the we
(10:03):
aspect so that teachers knowwhat's being said, but so
secretaries.
So does educational assistance.
So does everybody in the schoolwho works there have the same
belief system saying this iswhat we're about.
This is what we're going to doso that people hear it all the
time.
(10:23):
If you don't mind me sayingthis, Mark, I remember I was at
a school and I talked aboutwhere the best school in the
state of Wisconsin.
I think I told you that we're,we're saying it every day.
So I decided not to say a coupleof days.
I'm all right.
people are getting tired of it.
And they came to me.
Why are we not the best school,Wisconsin anymore?
sorry about that.
Sorry.
We're going to keep and causepeople believe that and people
(10:43):
started hearing it and theysaid, Hey, this is what we're
about.
so that's why Mark, I'm going toask you to expound about the
laser conversations you had,Mark, when you talked
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (10:52):
yeah.
bryan_2_10-16-2024 (10:52):
conversation with teachers.
How did you get that idea ofbeing
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (10:57):
So
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (10:57):
you came from?
mark_2_10-16-2024_102 (10:57):
essential is when, when we're establishing
our turnarounds or when we'reworking on enhancing our present
practices, we, we have tocontinue to really know what's
going on, what's happening now.
when we have reflectiveconversations, And we think
deeper ourselves, just likewe're trying to get kids to do
(11:19):
in the classroom.
We can get people to acknowledgetheir practices.
So laser conversations I reallylike it.
You know, if I go into aclassroom and I'm in there for
one or two minutes, my, thelongest conversation I should
have with that teacher is one totwo minutes, or three minutes
about what I saw in thatclassroom.
But what you really want them todo is think deeper about their
(11:39):
own practice.
Not about, hey, why did Jimmyreact this way?
More of, how did you re engageJimmy?
When you were over there talkingto him, I couldn't hear, you
know, what was it that you didthat really put Jimmy back on on
track?
What was the engagement that youdid?
What was the deeper thought thatyou gave Jimmy?
(12:01):
What was the result of this typeof interaction that happened?
I saw you correct the entireclassroom.
How did it go after I left?
How did you feel that yoursituation went?
We're thinking we're gettingthem to think deeper and deeper
about their practices.
Once people know what they do,because even the greatest
(12:24):
teachers sometimes don't knowwhy they do what they do.
They just do it.
And we want them to think deeperabout it.
And that's where laserconversations come in.
I have these poignant side byside.
I never face a teacher face onwhen I'm having these
conversations.
I'm always shoulder to shoulder.
setting in a chair or standingagainst the wall with them
(12:47):
during passing time or whateverit is.
And I'm having these very, veryshort conversations about deeper
level thinking.
And we as a school, we have toknow what practices are taking
place from our administratorperspective, what we're doing,
what teachers are doing Youcan't enhance anything if you
don't know what already existsand what the results are
(13:08):
associated with.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (13:09):
I appreciate you talking about
laser conversation because we'retalking about, we're talking
about being positive.
We're talking about beingsupportive.
We're not talking about to benegative and trying to come down
on anyone we're talking abouthow can we enhance your
instruction and help you out inyour classroom?
And the one thing with thiswhole conversation we're having
right now, we're not talkingabout what you're teaching.
(13:30):
All right.
That's the one thing we did notmention what you're
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (13:32):
It's later.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (13:33):
We think it's going to be important
to students, but what we'retalking about, what can we
assist in getting you to a pointwhere you feel comfortable that
what you're teaching is going tobe beneficial to that student.
that's what we're talking about.
And that's why when we'rediscussing it, it's a, we go
thing.
It's a, we thing, not a he thingor a she thing.
It's a, we thing we're talking.
And that's why the educationalcode becomes so important
(13:56):
because now you have somethingthat's your basis.
That's your thing.
You hang your hat on.
And then you say, this is what,this is what I'm about.
And you can join me insupporting me in this regard.
This can be what we're about.
And if they want to make someadjustments in that, they do
every
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:11):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (14:12):
a mission statement.
Every school I have is that nohas a mission statement.
Then when I go into a school, Iasked some a teacher what's the
mission statement.
They're looking at me like, Idon't know what I'm talking
about.
I know we got one, but, and see,that's what we're talking about.
We want to make sure it'ssomething simple that we believe
in as a staff.
Something we believe in that wecan share with students and then
in their own way having studentsto
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:32):
yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (14:32):
as well.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (14:33):
it's it's absolutely the link and,
you know, and one of the thingswe talked about recently, too,
was discipline matrix that weworked on.
If you have that code the matrixthen makes all the sense in the
workplace.
Because everything fits insideof that, that match, right?
Because we know what theexpectation is across the entire
(14:55):
school.
Because in the disciplinematrix, we talk about teacher
behaviors and how teachers willreact.
And we talk about howadministrators will react when
kids come to the classroom.
And then we teach the kids theexpectations overall.
Right.
So, so everybody understandswhat the code is.
(15:15):
It fits.
If you try to create adiscipline matrix and you don't
know what the code is in yourbuilding, how do you ever
enforce it?
How does it ever make sense?
How does it ever carry on?
It doesn't.
So you have a discipline policyand in your student handbook,
but what is it that that'scircling around?
(15:36):
What, is it that encompassesthat, that I can always say?
it was about the respect.
It was about respect.
It was, you know, it was aboutwhether students are learning or
not learning.
That's when we have those kindof conversations because we now
have something to build itaround.
And and so I think those thingsare, are essential to be able to
build that plan when, whenyou're doing Discipline Matrix.
(16:00):
You know, one of the schoolsthat you're assisting right now
sounds like at some point theyneed the discipline matrix, but
they got to get a few morethings.
They got to go through the data.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (16:08):
Well, let me make sure I say, because
you mentioned discipline matrix.
The best thing about disciplinematrix is when you don't have to
enforce it
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (16:16):
Yeah,
bryan_2_10-16-2024_102730 (16:16):
and not use it as discipline.
The discipline matrix isdesigned in theory to make sure,
these are things that we want tomake sure every teacher is going
to be consistent about whatthey're going to do in their
classroom.
And how are we going to do it ina school wide procedure?
the best thing about this formatrix and I've had been in
schools where quite frankly, wehad very little discipline.
We didn't even, we need amatrix, but the point being
(16:38):
made, we established policiesand procedures.
the discipline matrix was there,but it was rarely needed.
And that was things we talkedabout when we were discussing
schools.
So Mark, here's what we're goingto do.
I appreciate this conversationtoday.
we're going to have a guestspeaker next week.
former administrator, Mark, whois going to talk to us about
school discipline and classroommanagement and his own unique
(17:00):
way and how he was successful.
mark_2_10-16-2024_102651 (17:02):
I think that's really good.
I think the biggest thing is, iskeeping in mind that this is an
opportunity to listen to somepodcasts that can enhance.
Not only a classroom practice ifwe need to in the future as an
individual teacher listening tothis, but as administrators
(17:23):
listening to it on the wholeschool system and how they can
engage those other adults in thebuilding.
bryan_2_10-16-2024_ (17:31):
Absolutely.
with that.
Mark is good talking to you asalways.
Everybody who's listening, havea great day and we'll be back
with you again, with this, ourstarting our new process, take
care of everyone.
Bye bye.
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