April 14, 2025 • 25 mins
Learn about about Laser Conversations and the SR3: A Framework for Teacher Evaluation and Support
Laser Conversations are a tool for administrators to conduct informal, focused check-ins with staff throughout the day. These are brief but intentional conversations centered around a specific topic, strategy, or area of practice. The goal is to support teacher growth by providing timely feedback, asking reflective questions, and fostering professional dialogue. Unlike formal evaluations, Laser Conversations are designed to be low-stakes, high-impact interactions that encourage continuous improvement in teaching and learning.
As the school year winds down and teacher evaluations wrap up, it's the perfect time to revisit the SR3 process—a structured approach for administrators to guide teachers toward sustained improvement.
SR3 stands for:
Step 1: Support
Step 2: Repeat
Step 3: Remediate
Step 4: Remove
The purpose of SR3 is to ensure that teachers are positively impacting student learning and to provide a clear, fair path toward improvement if concerns arise.
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
If you found value in today’s episode, share it with a colleague, subscribe, and leave us a review. It helps us keep bringing you conversations that matter.
Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bryan (00:00):
Welcome to Educational Relevance.
(00:02):
am Bryan Wright, I am asuccessful administrator, 30
plus years in the public schoolsettings.
Educational Relevance, it's apodcast for educators by
educators.
Currently I am an adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University in Mequon Wisconsin.
And I'm gonna introduce mypartner in crime, Mark Macbeth.
Mark (00:25):
Mark Macbeth, a seasoned professional with 30 plus years
of experience in administration,leadership, and consulting
Bryan (2) (00:33):
Well Mark, we know the last few months of the
school year means wrapping upteacher evaluations.
So today is the perfect time toshare the SR 3 The SR 3 is a
teacher evaluation plan.
The SR 3 means support, repeat,remediate, and remove.
But before we start that, Markgives us a definition of what a
laser conversation is.
Mark (2) (00:54):
Laser conversations is a very pointed conversation with
other educators around aparticular topic, aimed at
helping them grow and be betterat what they're doing.
Bryan (2) (01:06):
And Mark, let's talk about that because our first
step in the SR 3 is support.
How does the laser conversationsassist us to help support the
teachers.
Mark (2) (01:15):
So it, really helps teachers to think at deeper
levels.
So a, skilled administrator canask a very open-ended, very deep
thinking questions to try to geta teacher to, reflect on their
present practice without comingacross as evaluative or
(01:36):
judgemental.
It's really meant to one, maybehelp me, but also help that
teacher grow.
For an example an open-endedquestion might be with the
assumptions that that ateacher's made decisions about
something that you saw in theclassroom.
So the way it works, Bryan, isI, go into a classroom and try
(02:00):
to make a five minute or lessobservation.
Sometimes it could be anywherefrom 30 seconds to a minute to
two minutes, just deep enough tofeel like I understand the
student engagement going on inthe classroom.
What the, teacher's vision,mission might have been for that
particular topic and then walkout.
(02:22):
And really it's about studentengagement, our students
learning or not learning.
I do is I come back betweenclass periods, elementary while
teachers are passing with their,their kids while they're in
doing copies, getting stuffready for their next class.
So for like in the middleschool, I just stand up against
the wall or the locker says kidsare passing and the teachers out
(02:46):
there supervising and I standshoulder to shoulder with them
and I just ask them, you toldthe students about this
particular topic associated withLincoln sounded like you were
trying to get them to makeassumptions about that, but I
had to leave.
What was your, thinking process?
(03:06):
What were you trying to get kidsto go to, in that particular
situation?
So what I'm doing is I'm askinga question to see if the
teacher's given deeper thoughtto just, instead of just open
asking a simple question thatthey had intents to ensure
students are thinking at deeperlevels themselves.
(03:26):
And by asking that question theteacher can start to reflect on
their practice.
Bryan (2) (03:31):
So let me ask this question Mark.
does the laser conversation,become a part of the formal
evaluation support?
Mark (2) (03:40):
That's a good question, Bryan.
So personally, when I thinkabout support, I really look at
it with the intention of helpingthat teacher grow.
And it is not to hold themaccountable.
It's really to help them grow inthe intention.
So I often keep my coaching andsupport folder separate that
says, Hey, I went in, asked thatquestion.
(04:02):
Maybe I wanna follow up nextweek with something else, you
know, with that teacher, Iworked with them on something
like a lesson plan or, or I workwith them on a classroom rule or
expectations that they have withkids.
Or even that higher orderquestioning, I've worked with
the teacher on that, and then Iwant to go back and work with it
again.
The evaluation gets separatedand, that's where it goes into a
(04:26):
whole nother folder, and that'swhere I'm gonna hold them more
accountable to the expectationsthat the district has outlined.
In this particular case, I'mlooking at the expectations of
how can I help that teacher growto be even stronger than they
are, even if they're great doingself-reflection is powerful.
Bryan (2) (04:44):
So when you do step one, we talk about support.
That means you're actuallyproviding them some ideas to
assist them in their developmentas an instructor.
Is that correct?
Mark (2) (04:54):
I actually enter coaching from the stance of
really getting the teacher tothink deeper.
if I started into that littleconversation,'cause that that
conversation's only.
You know, 3 minutes long.
It's, really pointed, right?
But if, if I entered into thatconversation and the teacher
doesn't seem to quite get it, Imight start to collaborate and
(05:16):
say, well, I was kind ofthinking this and I was thinking
this.
What was your thinking?
And then I try to push it backinto their thinking even more.
Or if they really don't have ananswer.
I'll go to that expert level andsay, oh, this is what you would
ask if you really wanted thatdeeper level thinking.
you should have asked what wasthe unintended effects effects
(05:39):
of this of this happening,right?
And, and that would've had thekids thinking at a deeper level
that they're, you knowunintended.
Oh, I didn't know those sideeffects to that.
Right?
Bryan (2) (05:53):
so let me, summarize this first part with support.
Everything we do in this firstpart when we're discussing
support of the teacher, weunderstand, we see, some things
that are problematic in theclassroom, but Our first step is
always to support that teacher.
How can we get you on the righttrack?
How can we assist you to makeyou a better educator.
(06:14):
Is that correct?
Mark (2) (06:16):
Yeah.
Coach and support you know, andI, I've even used the word coach
and support them to death,meaning I give them more than
they want, you know?
And ultimately, if they everchoose to not make the next step
and grow and develop as, as ateacher, then ultimately they
choose their own, you know,little statement on their own
tombstone, I guess.
And that's where you come inlater where you talk about
(06:38):
remove.
I never want to get to thatstage.
I don't want to have thatconversation when I'm coaching
and supporting.
Bryan (2) (06:45):
That's a great segue to our next piece, though,
because now we're talking aboutrepeat.
Because sometimes when you makethese mentions to teachers, you
gotta make sure you, you gottarepeat what you're gonna talk to
the teacher about what you wantthem to fix.
Sometimes you wanna make sureit's clear the process you want
them to utilize in order forthem to become successful.
(07:07):
So it may not be the first timeyou talk to them, it may be the
second time you talk to'em, butyou wanna make sure you say,
this is the area we want you toimprove in.
This is the places we want youto grow, and this is why we
think it's going to help studentachievement.
So Mark, lemme ask you thisquestion because I think the
first time you really did seguebeautifully into the second
(07:27):
part.
How did we get to that secondpart when you, when you repeat
what you're saying to theteacher when you didn't think
they got it the first time?
Mark (2) (07:35):
Yeah, so you, you've been there a million times,
Bryan.
You walk into a classroom, yousee something, maybe you have a
conversation with the teacherand you go back the next day and
you see the same behavior.
I.
And, and so it doesn't matterwhether I'm in that coaching or
support stance, when I go backin a formal evaluative state, I
will see that same behavioragain.
(07:56):
If I spend an hour in theclassroom, I'm gonna see the
same thing.
It just, it just surface.
And at that point, I'm eithergoing back and having multiple
visits through the coaching, andthen the coaching might step up.
We talked about laserconversations, very appointed,
but I might say.
Hey, I can come in and, and giveyou a, a sample of that.
(08:17):
I can, I can teach a lesson onthat particular thing where I
can help you.
Maybe the two of us get up infront and we ask these deeper
level
Bryan (2) (08:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (2) (08:24):
if that's what we want to do.
Or I'll send the instructionalcoach in to support you, or
let's go observe anotherteacher's classroom.
That's the The repeat, therepeat.
Right.
Part of that formal evaluationstarts to document the repeat.
The idea that I tell them atsome point during the formal
(08:46):
evaluation, Hey, during myobservation, during the formal
observation, I solve this.
I think you need to grow anddevelop in that.
And so let's work on somestrategies with that.
Bryan (2) (08:59):
You said the magic word.
We wanna make sure we documentthings.
We're talking to teachers about.
It has to be documented, right?
And yes, those conversations aregood, but when we talk about
going to the second step, whichis repeat clarity is the point.
We gotta make sure, you gottaensure what we want to see is
gonna be put down in print.
Am I right?
Mark (2) (09:20):
Right.
Bryan (2) (09:20):
And that's why we're talking about helping teachers
out, getting the right piecestogether.
Again, repeat can be used as asupportive state as well.
We're trying to get the teacherso they become excellent
instructors, educational leadersin front of students.
But at the same time, we gottasay, this is what we want to
see.
Is that what we're talkingabout, Mark?
(09:41):
At that point,
Mark (2) (09:42):
Yeah.
100%.
You can never hold anybodyaccountable if they don't know
the expectation and they, andyou can never hold anybody
accountable if you didn'tcollect the data to show them
what that represented.
Right?
And
Bryan (2) (09:54):
Absolutely.
Mark (2) (09:55):
the documentation.
You, if you don't have it, thenhow do you ever hold them
accountable?
You can't come back at this timeof the year and go, oh, by the
way, you were really terriblefirst semester.
Terrible at what, you know, whendid this conversation take
place?
And so that's where that repeatit's, it's like we should be
having that conversations ofcoaching support first semester
(10:18):
of the year.
Ongoing.
Ongoing.
But at some point when we noticesomething more serious or, where
we need to really hold themaccountable.
Then we start to clearlydocument that and then, and then
we're still coaching andsupport, but we're, laying that
evidence and that repeat effortsto help them.
Bryan (2) (10:37):
And Mark, you just mentioned something about
timeliness.
I think that's a great comment.
'cause timeliness is what we'retalking when we discuss
remediation.
The third piece is remediate.
All right, when we talkremediate, we gotta say it.
Now look, we need to see someimprovement.
We're saying this, we wanna makesure we, we supported you.
We want to continue to supportyou, but we got to see something
(10:57):
better in the classroom.
We gotta meet those studentstandards that know we want
students to learn.
Remediate helps us out.
But timing, this is also a factMark.
When we discuss that, give theteacher or the educator.
Time to implement new ideas andstrategies so that when we say
these things saying we need toremediate, we gotta give you an
opportunity to have a a learningplan.
(11:18):
Some people say it's a teacherimprovement plan, that other
districts call it some of theother things, but the bottom
line is getting that person aformal opportunity to make
change.
Mark, you've been in this rolemany a time.
How do you get teachers to, tohelp them to remediate what
they're doing in the classroom?
Mark (2) (11:35):
Always to offer evidence of data that supports
where their growth and or lackof growth.
Okay?
So you're always documentingwhatever you say is, here's what
I'm gonna remediate with.
You gotta have a way tomeasuring that to determine
whether they're making growth,and you have to go into it with
(11:55):
the mindset that I am gonna helpthem be successful.
I'm encouraging them to adoptthat same concept that I want to
be successful.
But there's one key thing herethat I think's really essential,
that some administrators areafraid to say.
They're afraid to say that thisis unacceptable.
(12:17):
Because it's hurting kids'learning.
So you have to enhance andchange what you're doing right
now.
That's when remediation kicks inis when you find that they are
hurting kids' learning, kids arenot learning as a result of what
you're doing as a teacher andyou have to be willing to tell
teachers that, then you turnaround and go back and say, now
(12:40):
I'm gonna help you besuccessful.
I'm gonna help kids learn byhelping you because I want you
to be successful.
But document, document,document, in remediation.
Bryan (2) (12:49):
Also, you mentioned data.
I think data plays such a bigrole, Mark, especially when it
comes to remediation.
You can have a teacher that'sliked by the kids.
I've known many a teachersthat's well liked by the
students.
Kids like him, he's their buddy,but they're not learning in the
classroom.
That's why data becomes soimportant so you can see what's
(13:12):
going on.
I have been in that position,we'll talk about removing in a
minute, but I've been in thatposition where a teacher's been
well liked, but they're beingwell liked is one thing.
Kids learning in the classroomwas not taking place.
So they had a good time in theclassroom.
They spoke about a lot of ourissues, but How are you meeting
classroom objectives on a dailybasis?
(13:33):
And then what are you going todo?
What kind of data are you goingto utilize to show that the kids
are learning?
So, Mark, let me give you anidea.
Let me tell you, let me ask you,actually ask you this question
Mark and how, what kind of ideashave you seen?
So teachers can be used for dataso that they can say, I'm
meeting these standards.
Mark (2) (13:53):
Well, the simple one is an assessment, right?
Are my kids learning or notlearning?
And that doesn't have to be aformative assessment of some
sort, it can be what's going oninside the classroom or students
being successful in my weeklyassessments.
Are kids demonstrating whatthey're doing?
A grade doesn't necessarilydetermine that, so I don't like
(14:15):
to use grades as a, as a sourceof data.
But we can also see simplethings like in a classroom, I
can do flow charts of all kindsof observations with the teacher
on whether they're calling onkids, whether they're asking
higher order questioning,whether they have student
engagement.
I can document all those thingsand they'd be the same thing
(14:37):
that I documented from day one.
Would be the same thing I'mdocumenting as I'm going.
The teacher can also documentthose levels of higher order
questioning by just saying,here's, you know let me bring up
a chart here.
Like, here's, here's a evidenceand reasoning.
Teachers could have thesequestions set in front of them
and they could show me thatthey've been asking these
(14:57):
questions.
What evidence supports thisclaim?
How do you know that?
What makes you say that?
You know, if they have thosetype of things in front of them
and they're asking questions ofthe students, they're getting
kids to think a little bit.
So at least they're attemptingto make progress with that.
Now, if they have the follow upand they can, but they can say,
(15:20):
how many times I've asked thatquestion?
Does that make sense?
Bryan (2) (15:23):
Oh, now does it make sense?
But I'll also throw out anotherpiece because you brought up
something I I want to talk aboutand I'll make a quick story.
You brought up grades.
lemme give you an example.
I had two freshman teachers inthe same level at a certain
school.
One teacher felt that if thekids did 3 paragraphs well,
they're worthy of an A.
(15:46):
I had another freshman teachersaid, I want my kids to learn
how to do 3 page term paperswith research.
If they can't do that, thenthey're gonna get a C.
So one teacher 80% of her kidsgot B's or better, and 92%, I
think 93% of her kids got Cs orbetter, out of a hundred kids.
(16:10):
Now, the a hundred kids from theother teacher, 60% got B's or
better.
75% got A's or better.
But here's the concern.
The next year, the kids who arein the 3 page themes did a whole
lot better in sophomore, andtheir grades got much higher
(16:30):
than that teacher who wereteaching them just 3 paragraphs
and saying that was good enough.
So sometimes when we look atgrades, grades are not always
equal.
Yet the teacher who did the 3paragraphs was liked, her kids
loved her, but they werelearning the material to advance
their learning and what they'regoing to do.
(16:51):
Now.
That being said, that brings usto the fourth piece.
And Mark, I, I see you wantedsay something.
What you got buddy?
Mark (2) (16:56):
Well, let, let's, let's reflect back.
You and I talked to Rollie Plattone time.
He was a longtime schooladministrator in Quincy,
Bryan (2) (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (2) (17:05):
and he, he was a principal at an alternative
school and he talked to us aboutmastery learning, meaning that.
Kids could not move on from onetopic to the next until they
were able to show proficiency of80% or more on a particular
topic.
It didn't matter how much workthey did, they could, they could
(17:28):
work, work, work, work.
No grade, they get the 80% ormore, they just got a passing
grade.
Boom.
They move on to the next topicand next topic, and then those
things were repeated a littlebit in each one of those
different mods that he had.
So that was ensuring kids werelearning, not kids doing.
Bryan (2) (17:50):
Well, and that's the basis of standard basis and
grading
Mark (2) (17:54):
Yeah.
Bryan (2) (17:55):
that what standard based grading is.
Mark (2) (17:56):
modernized term.
Yep.
Bryan (2) (17:58):
Rollie was.
In certain aspects because youwere doing this years ago, but
now we got schools who actuallygrade on standards based.
How much?
How they know the standards.
80%.
But at the same time, somewherealong the way, subjectivity
becomes involved,
Mark (2) (18:17):
Yeah.
Bryan (2) (18:17):
and that's why it's so important that the data you
have, it's gotta be moreobjective data.
I had a teacher whose kidsweren't doing stuff on a
nationals level.
He was saying, but 90% of mykids are learning on the level I
have on the grading scale Iutilize, and you're like, wait a
minute.
They may be doing it on yourscale, just like that teacher
(18:39):
who had 92% of the kids passingwith a C or better.
But what are they going to do asfar as the national grading
level on ninth grade English.
And tell you truth, her kid didnot do nearly as well as the
other teacher who was talkingabout the 3 pages.
Now we're gonna talk aboutremoval'cause eventually we
gotta get some teachers to begone.
You've done all yourdocumentation, you used data,
(19:02):
you used support, you repeatedwhat you wanted them to learn.
You put them on a remediationplan.
Mark what happens when we gotuntil somebody is not working?
Mark (2) (19:15):
You know, I think, we invite people in to be teachers
and we put our arm around themand say, welcome to the team and
at the very end, we've doneeverything to exhaust our
efforts.
We've collected data, we'vecoached and supported them to
their own demise, right?
They've, they've chosen theirpath.
We put our arm around them againand say, sorry this is not where
(19:38):
you need to be today.
Right?
And, it is about our product,okay?
Which is student learning.
That's the key.
And if we hold that avenue to betrue, then we don't take
personal, the interactionbetween letting a teacher go
because that's where it really,really gets hard.
(20:00):
We have close relationships withthese teachers if we've coached
them as much as we, we justtalked about here in support and
remediate and everything else,and we've done the repeating
efforts and over and over we'vecreated a relationship with that
teacher.
And sometimes it's hard to cutways, but we collect the data.
(20:21):
We hold them accountable.
Our product is student learning,so we have to make those hard
decisions.
Bryan (2) (20:27):
In addition the proof is always in the pudding, but
it's also a situation wherelearning's not taking place.
We've done the documentation,but we also, and when I talked
to you about the, the teacheranalogy we used the next year.
How are those kids going tolearn the next year?
And that's the problem.
Have those kids been put setback by the product of poor
(20:51):
teaching?
And this is a concern we have.
'cause now those students haveto play catchup as well.
And the next teacher who'sfollowing that teacher has to
find new avenues to make surethey learn more than a month
instruction to a month'slearning.
And they have to help build upthat student back.
One more thing we need to talkabout when discussing student
(21:13):
learning, how does the studentfeel?
Does the student feel inferior?
Does the student feeluncomfortable?
These are things we also need totalk about.
because the bottom line is ourchildren.
But we have been in a situationwhere we had to remove teachers
who have affected these kids insuch a negative way.
And again, we're not talkingabout personal.
(21:34):
We're talking about what's bestfor our children, and I think
we've done that before.
And Mark, you've been in thatposition.
So have I.
Mark (2) (21:42):
Yeah.
You know, and it's, it's reallyhard and, and you know, I've
heard plenty of stories andmaybe you've even shared a few
with me where schooladministrators have had to make
these really tough choices, andthen the, the teacher's really
well liked, and then you end upin front of the school board and
or in front of some sort ofcommittee to say, I'm
recommending this teacher to bereleased, and there's a bunch of
(22:05):
parents and kids theresupporting that teacher, and we
still have to hold accountable.
'cause we know what theexpectation is.
We know what we're supposed tobe doing.
We know whether kids are beinghurt or not, we still have to
stand our ground even among thatpressure.
I've been in that situation andstill got released because I had
(22:27):
the proper documentation anddata, the support that I've
really bent over backwards tohelp that teacher along the way.
And if I wouldn't have had that,it would've just been an
opinion.
Bryan (2) (22:40):
And I have seen it both ways and thank you for
saying that, Mark, you, you'reabsolutely right.
I've seen the, where the, theschool board has said, we'll
give this teacher another yearbecause they felt that the data
was not appropriate or not ascomplete as it should be.
I've also been in a situationwhere parents were there and the
school board actually stoppedthe meeting, had a private
(23:02):
session.
What do you have in order forthis teacher to be released
because they were, they, they'regonna face the pressure of the
parents as well.
So we had to have our ducks in arow, as it were.
We had to have the data saying,this is what the kids aren't
doing, this is what they're notlearning.
And then the board had thecourage to go back out there and
(23:25):
saying, we're not going to hirethis teacher because of this.
So you're absolutely right.
So when you talk about the SR 3,the SR 3 has been proven to be
an effective program.
We've used it, we've seen itwork.
We're giving educators anopportunity to take a program
that will provide documentation,utilize data, but at the same
(23:47):
time, help support the teachersin question so we can give them,
as you said support them todeath.
Mark (2) (23:55):
And, and it's gotta be all good intentions, the best of
intentions of trying to helpthat teacher be successful.
And then if you do, then you'vereally coached them through
their own death and they'vechosen that avenue.
they've chosen it through their,behavior, their desires, their
wants, maybe even their ownknowledge or skillset.
They just can't quite get tothat level.
Bryan (2) (24:16):
Oh, absolutely education is not for everyone.
Mark (2) (24:20):
It's hard work too.
I people think that they gettheir summers off and everything
else.
I mean, it's hard work.
It is hard thinking all day,being on the top of your game.
Teachers are worn out by the endof the day.
Bryan (2) (24:34):
And I wanna make sure we close this session by saying
we are in support of teachers.
I had a teacher tell me they do900 shows a year, 180 days, five
classes.
They do 900 presentations ayear.
And that is true in certainways, but at the same time, I.
We wanna support you in thosepresentations, but we also gotta
(24:55):
make sure the audience you'representing to is learning the
material they have to learn.
Mark (2) (25:00):
Oh, that's deep buddy.
That's a.
Bryan (2) (25:03):
Well, with that being said, Thank you for joining us
today on Educational Relevance,Bye-bye.
Cedric (25:09):
Thanks for listening.
Be sure to like and followEducational Relevance on
Facebook, Instagram,YouTube andyour favorite podcast platform.
Welcome to Educational Relevance.
(00:02):
am Bryan Wright, I am asuccessful administrator, 30
plus years in the public schoolsettings.
Educational Relevance, it's apodcast for educators by
educators.
Currently I am an adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University in Mequon Wisconsin.
And I'm gonna introduce mypartner in crime, Mark Macbeth.
Mark (00:25):
Mark Macbeth, a seasoned professional with 30 plus years
of experience in administration,leadership, and consulting
Bryan (2) (00:33):
Well Mark, we know the last few months of the
school year means wrapping upteacher evaluations.
So today is the perfect time toshare the SR 3 The SR 3 is a
teacher evaluation plan.
The SR 3 means support, repeat,remediate, and remove.
But before we start that, Markgives us a definition of what a
laser conversation is.
Mark (2) (00:54):
Laser conversations is a very pointed conversation with
other educators around aparticular topic, aimed at
helping them grow and be betterat what they're doing.
Bryan (2) (01:06):
And Mark, let's talk about that because our first
step in the SR 3 is support.
How does the laser conversationsassist us to help support the
teachers.
Mark (2) (01:15):
So it, really helps teachers to think at deeper
levels.
So a, skilled administrator canask a very open-ended, very deep
thinking questions to try to geta teacher to, reflect on their
present practice without comingacross as evaluative or
(01:36):
judgemental.
It's really meant to one, maybehelp me, but also help that
teacher grow.
For an example an open-endedquestion might be with the
assumptions that that ateacher's made decisions about
something that you saw in theclassroom.
So the way it works, Bryan, isI, go into a classroom and try
(02:00):
to make a five minute or lessobservation.
Sometimes it could be anywherefrom 30 seconds to a minute to
two minutes, just deep enough tofeel like I understand the
student engagement going on inthe classroom.
What the, teacher's vision,mission might have been for that
particular topic and then walkout.
(02:22):
And really it's about studentengagement, our students
learning or not learning.
I do is I come back betweenclass periods, elementary while
teachers are passing with their,their kids while they're in
doing copies, getting stuffready for their next class.
So for like in the middleschool, I just stand up against
the wall or the locker says kidsare passing and the teachers out
(02:46):
there supervising and I standshoulder to shoulder with them
and I just ask them, you toldthe students about this
particular topic associated withLincoln sounded like you were
trying to get them to makeassumptions about that, but I
had to leave.
What was your, thinking process?
(03:06):
What were you trying to get kidsto go to, in that particular
situation?
So what I'm doing is I'm askinga question to see if the
teacher's given deeper thoughtto just, instead of just open
asking a simple question thatthey had intents to ensure
students are thinking at deeperlevels themselves.
(03:26):
And by asking that question theteacher can start to reflect on
their practice.
Bryan (2) (03:31):
So let me ask this question Mark.
does the laser conversation,become a part of the formal
evaluation support?
Mark (2) (03:40):
That's a good question, Bryan.
So personally, when I thinkabout support, I really look at
it with the intention of helpingthat teacher grow.
And it is not to hold themaccountable.
It's really to help them grow inthe intention.
So I often keep my coaching andsupport folder separate that
says, Hey, I went in, asked thatquestion.
(04:02):
Maybe I wanna follow up nextweek with something else, you
know, with that teacher, Iworked with them on something
like a lesson plan or, or I workwith them on a classroom rule or
expectations that they have withkids.
Or even that higher orderquestioning, I've worked with
the teacher on that, and then Iwant to go back and work with it
again.
The evaluation gets separatedand, that's where it goes into a
(04:26):
whole nother folder, and that'swhere I'm gonna hold them more
accountable to the expectationsthat the district has outlined.
In this particular case, I'mlooking at the expectations of
how can I help that teacher growto be even stronger than they
are, even if they're great doingself-reflection is powerful.
Bryan (2) (04:44):
So when you do step one, we talk about support.
That means you're actuallyproviding them some ideas to
assist them in their developmentas an instructor.
Is that correct?
Mark (2) (04:54):
I actually enter coaching from the stance of
really getting the teacher tothink deeper.
if I started into that littleconversation,'cause that that
conversation's only.
You know, 3 minutes long.
It's, really pointed, right?
But if, if I entered into thatconversation and the teacher
doesn't seem to quite get it, Imight start to collaborate and
(05:16):
say, well, I was kind ofthinking this and I was thinking
this.
What was your thinking?
And then I try to push it backinto their thinking even more.
Or if they really don't have ananswer.
I'll go to that expert level andsay, oh, this is what you would
ask if you really wanted thatdeeper level thinking.
you should have asked what wasthe unintended effects effects
(05:39):
of this of this happening,right?
And, and that would've had thekids thinking at a deeper level
that they're, you knowunintended.
Oh, I didn't know those sideeffects to that.
Right?
Bryan (2) (05:53):
so let me, summarize this first part with support.
Everything we do in this firstpart when we're discussing
support of the teacher, weunderstand, we see, some things
that are problematic in theclassroom, but Our first step is
always to support that teacher.
How can we get you on the righttrack?
How can we assist you to makeyou a better educator.
(06:14):
Is that correct?
Mark (2) (06:16):
Yeah.
Coach and support you know, andI, I've even used the word coach
and support them to death,meaning I give them more than
they want, you know?
And ultimately, if they everchoose to not make the next step
and grow and develop as, as ateacher, then ultimately they
choose their own, you know,little statement on their own
tombstone, I guess.
And that's where you come inlater where you talk about
(06:38):
remove.
I never want to get to thatstage.
I don't want to have thatconversation when I'm coaching
and supporting.
Bryan (2) (06:45):
That's a great segue to our next piece, though,
because now we're talking aboutrepeat.
Because sometimes when you makethese mentions to teachers, you
gotta make sure you, you gottarepeat what you're gonna talk to
the teacher about what you wantthem to fix.
Sometimes you wanna make sureit's clear the process you want
them to utilize in order forthem to become successful.
(07:07):
So it may not be the first timeyou talk to them, it may be the
second time you talk to'em, butyou wanna make sure you say,
this is the area we want you toimprove in.
This is the places we want youto grow, and this is why we
think it's going to help studentachievement.
So Mark, lemme ask you thisquestion because I think the
first time you really did seguebeautifully into the second
(07:27):
part.
How did we get to that secondpart when you, when you repeat
what you're saying to theteacher when you didn't think
they got it the first time?
Mark (2) (07:35):
Yeah, so you, you've been there a million times,
Bryan.
You walk into a classroom, yousee something, maybe you have a
conversation with the teacherand you go back the next day and
you see the same behavior.
I.
And, and so it doesn't matterwhether I'm in that coaching or
support stance, when I go backin a formal evaluative state, I
will see that same behavioragain.
(07:56):
If I spend an hour in theclassroom, I'm gonna see the
same thing.
It just, it just surface.
And at that point, I'm eithergoing back and having multiple
visits through the coaching, andthen the coaching might step up.
We talked about laserconversations, very appointed,
but I might say.
Hey, I can come in and, and giveyou a, a sample of that.
(08:17):
I can, I can teach a lesson onthat particular thing where I
can help you.
Maybe the two of us get up infront and we ask these deeper
level
Bryan (2) (08:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (2) (08:24):
if that's what we want to do.
Or I'll send the instructionalcoach in to support you, or
let's go observe anotherteacher's classroom.
That's the The repeat, therepeat.
Right.
Part of that formal evaluationstarts to document the repeat.
The idea that I tell them atsome point during the formal
(08:46):
evaluation, Hey, during myobservation, during the formal
observation, I solve this.
I think you need to grow anddevelop in that.
And so let's work on somestrategies with that.
Bryan (2) (08:59):
You said the magic word.
We wanna make sure we documentthings.
We're talking to teachers about.
It has to be documented, right?
And yes, those conversations aregood, but when we talk about
going to the second step, whichis repeat clarity is the point.
We gotta make sure, you gottaensure what we want to see is
gonna be put down in print.
Am I right?
Mark (2) (09:20):
Right.
Bryan (2) (09:20):
And that's why we're talking about helping teachers
out, getting the right piecestogether.
Again, repeat can be used as asupportive state as well.
We're trying to get the teacherso they become excellent
instructors, educational leadersin front of students.
But at the same time, we gottasay, this is what we want to
see.
Is that what we're talkingabout, Mark?
(09:41):
At that point,
Mark (2) (09:42):
Yeah.
100%.
You can never hold anybodyaccountable if they don't know
the expectation and they, andyou can never hold anybody
accountable if you didn'tcollect the data to show them
what that represented.
Right?
And
Bryan (2) (09:54):
Absolutely.
Mark (2) (09:55):
the documentation.
You, if you don't have it, thenhow do you ever hold them
accountable?
You can't come back at this timeof the year and go, oh, by the
way, you were really terriblefirst semester.
Terrible at what, you know, whendid this conversation take
place?
And so that's where that repeatit's, it's like we should be
having that conversations ofcoaching support first semester
(10:18):
of the year.
Ongoing.
Ongoing.
But at some point when we noticesomething more serious or, where
we need to really hold themaccountable.
Then we start to clearlydocument that and then, and then
we're still coaching andsupport, but we're, laying that
evidence and that repeat effortsto help them.
Bryan (2) (10:37):
And Mark, you just mentioned something about
timeliness.
I think that's a great comment.
'cause timeliness is what we'retalking when we discuss
remediation.
The third piece is remediate.
All right, when we talkremediate, we gotta say it.
Now look, we need to see someimprovement.
We're saying this, we wanna makesure we, we supported you.
We want to continue to supportyou, but we got to see something
(10:57):
better in the classroom.
We gotta meet those studentstandards that know we want
students to learn.
Remediate helps us out.
But timing, this is also a factMark.
When we discuss that, give theteacher or the educator.
Time to implement new ideas andstrategies so that when we say
these things saying we need toremediate, we gotta give you an
opportunity to have a a learningplan.
(11:18):
Some people say it's a teacherimprovement plan, that other
districts call it some of theother things, but the bottom
line is getting that person aformal opportunity to make
change.
Mark, you've been in this rolemany a time.
How do you get teachers to, tohelp them to remediate what
they're doing in the classroom?
Mark (2) (11:35):
Always to offer evidence of data that supports
where their growth and or lackof growth.
Okay?
So you're always documentingwhatever you say is, here's what
I'm gonna remediate with.
You gotta have a way tomeasuring that to determine
whether they're making growth,and you have to go into it with
(11:55):
the mindset that I am gonna helpthem be successful.
I'm encouraging them to adoptthat same concept that I want to
be successful.
But there's one key thing herethat I think's really essential,
that some administrators areafraid to say.
They're afraid to say that thisis unacceptable.
(12:17):
Because it's hurting kids'learning.
So you have to enhance andchange what you're doing right
now.
That's when remediation kicks inis when you find that they are
hurting kids' learning, kids arenot learning as a result of what
you're doing as a teacher andyou have to be willing to tell
teachers that, then you turnaround and go back and say, now
(12:40):
I'm gonna help you besuccessful.
I'm gonna help kids learn byhelping you because I want you
to be successful.
But document, document,document, in remediation.
Bryan (2) (12:49):
Also, you mentioned data.
I think data plays such a bigrole, Mark, especially when it
comes to remediation.
You can have a teacher that'sliked by the kids.
I've known many a teachersthat's well liked by the
students.
Kids like him, he's their buddy,but they're not learning in the
classroom.
That's why data becomes soimportant so you can see what's
(13:12):
going on.
I have been in that position,we'll talk about removing in a
minute, but I've been in thatposition where a teacher's been
well liked, but they're beingwell liked is one thing.
Kids learning in the classroomwas not taking place.
So they had a good time in theclassroom.
They spoke about a lot of ourissues, but How are you meeting
classroom objectives on a dailybasis?
(13:33):
And then what are you going todo?
What kind of data are you goingto utilize to show that the kids
are learning?
So, Mark, let me give you anidea.
Let me tell you, let me ask you,actually ask you this question
Mark and how, what kind of ideashave you seen?
So teachers can be used for dataso that they can say, I'm
meeting these standards.
Mark (2) (13:53):
Well, the simple one is an assessment, right?
Are my kids learning or notlearning?
And that doesn't have to be aformative assessment of some
sort, it can be what's going oninside the classroom or students
being successful in my weeklyassessments.
Are kids demonstrating whatthey're doing?
A grade doesn't necessarilydetermine that, so I don't like
(14:15):
to use grades as a, as a sourceof data.
But we can also see simplethings like in a classroom, I
can do flow charts of all kindsof observations with the teacher
on whether they're calling onkids, whether they're asking
higher order questioning,whether they have student
engagement.
I can document all those thingsand they'd be the same thing
(14:37):
that I documented from day one.
Would be the same thing I'mdocumenting as I'm going.
The teacher can also documentthose levels of higher order
questioning by just saying,here's, you know let me bring up
a chart here.
Like, here's, here's a evidenceand reasoning.
Teachers could have thesequestions set in front of them
and they could show me thatthey've been asking these
(14:57):
questions.
What evidence supports thisclaim?
How do you know that?
What makes you say that?
You know, if they have thosetype of things in front of them
and they're asking questions ofthe students, they're getting
kids to think a little bit.
So at least they're attemptingto make progress with that.
Now, if they have the follow upand they can, but they can say,
(15:20):
how many times I've asked thatquestion?
Does that make sense?
Bryan (2) (15:23):
Oh, now does it make sense?
But I'll also throw out anotherpiece because you brought up
something I I want to talk aboutand I'll make a quick story.
You brought up grades.
lemme give you an example.
I had two freshman teachers inthe same level at a certain
school.
One teacher felt that if thekids did 3 paragraphs well,
they're worthy of an A.
(15:46):
I had another freshman teachersaid, I want my kids to learn
how to do 3 page term paperswith research.
If they can't do that, thenthey're gonna get a C.
So one teacher 80% of her kidsgot B's or better, and 92%, I
think 93% of her kids got Cs orbetter, out of a hundred kids.
(16:10):
Now, the a hundred kids from theother teacher, 60% got B's or
better.
75% got A's or better.
But here's the concern.
The next year, the kids who arein the 3 page themes did a whole
lot better in sophomore, andtheir grades got much higher
(16:30):
than that teacher who wereteaching them just 3 paragraphs
and saying that was good enough.
So sometimes when we look atgrades, grades are not always
equal.
Yet the teacher who did the 3paragraphs was liked, her kids
loved her, but they werelearning the material to advance
their learning and what they'regoing to do.
(16:51):
Now.
That being said, that brings usto the fourth piece.
And Mark, I, I see you wantedsay something.
What you got buddy?
Mark (2) (16:56):
Well, let, let's, let's reflect back.
You and I talked to Rollie Plattone time.
He was a longtime schooladministrator in Quincy,
Bryan (2) (17:04):
Mm-hmm.
Mark (2) (17:05):
and he, he was a principal at an alternative
school and he talked to us aboutmastery learning, meaning that.
Kids could not move on from onetopic to the next until they
were able to show proficiency of80% or more on a particular
topic.
It didn't matter how much workthey did, they could, they could
(17:28):
work, work, work, work.
No grade, they get the 80% ormore, they just got a passing
grade.
Boom.
They move on to the next topicand next topic, and then those
things were repeated a littlebit in each one of those
different mods that he had.
So that was ensuring kids werelearning, not kids doing.
Bryan (2) (17:50):
Well, and that's the basis of standard basis and
grading
Mark (2) (17:54):
Yeah.
Bryan (2) (17:55):
that what standard based grading is.
Mark (2) (17:56):
modernized term.
Yep.
Bryan (2) (17:58):
Rollie was.
In certain aspects because youwere doing this years ago, but
now we got schools who actuallygrade on standards based.
How much?
How they know the standards.
80%.
But at the same time, somewherealong the way, subjectivity
becomes involved,
Mark (2) (18:17):
Yeah.
Bryan (2) (18:17):
and that's why it's so important that the data you
have, it's gotta be moreobjective data.
I had a teacher whose kidsweren't doing stuff on a
nationals level.
He was saying, but 90% of mykids are learning on the level I
have on the grading scale Iutilize, and you're like, wait a
minute.
They may be doing it on yourscale, just like that teacher
(18:39):
who had 92% of the kids passingwith a C or better.
But what are they going to do asfar as the national grading
level on ninth grade English.
And tell you truth, her kid didnot do nearly as well as the
other teacher who was talkingabout the 3 pages.
Now we're gonna talk aboutremoval'cause eventually we
gotta get some teachers to begone.
You've done all yourdocumentation, you used data,
(19:02):
you used support, you repeatedwhat you wanted them to learn.
You put them on a remediationplan.
Mark what happens when we gotuntil somebody is not working?
Mark (2) (19:15):
You know, I think, we invite people in to be teachers
and we put our arm around themand say, welcome to the team and
at the very end, we've doneeverything to exhaust our
efforts.
We've collected data, we'vecoached and supported them to
their own demise, right?
They've, they've chosen theirpath.
We put our arm around them againand say, sorry this is not where
(19:38):
you need to be today.
Right?
And, it is about our product,okay?
Which is student learning.
That's the key.
And if we hold that avenue to betrue, then we don't take
personal, the interactionbetween letting a teacher go
because that's where it really,really gets hard.
(20:00):
We have close relationships withthese teachers if we've coached
them as much as we, we justtalked about here in support and
remediate and everything else,and we've done the repeating
efforts and over and over we'vecreated a relationship with that
teacher.
And sometimes it's hard to cutways, but we collect the data.
(20:21):
We hold them accountable.
Our product is student learning,so we have to make those hard
decisions.
Bryan (2) (20:27):
In addition the proof is always in the pudding, but
it's also a situation wherelearning's not taking place.
We've done the documentation,but we also, and when I talked
to you about the, the teacheranalogy we used the next year.
How are those kids going tolearn the next year?
And that's the problem.
Have those kids been put setback by the product of poor
(20:51):
teaching?
And this is a concern we have.
'cause now those students haveto play catchup as well.
And the next teacher who'sfollowing that teacher has to
find new avenues to make surethey learn more than a month
instruction to a month'slearning.
And they have to help build upthat student back.
One more thing we need to talkabout when discussing student
(21:13):
learning, how does the studentfeel?
Does the student feel inferior?
Does the student feeluncomfortable?
These are things we also need totalk about.
because the bottom line is ourchildren.
But we have been in a situationwhere we had to remove teachers
who have affected these kids insuch a negative way.
And again, we're not talkingabout personal.
(21:34):
We're talking about what's bestfor our children, and I think
we've done that before.
And Mark, you've been in thatposition.
So have I.
Mark (2) (21:42):
Yeah.
You know, and it's, it's reallyhard and, and you know, I've
heard plenty of stories andmaybe you've even shared a few
with me where schooladministrators have had to make
these really tough choices, andthen the, the teacher's really
well liked, and then you end upin front of the school board and
or in front of some sort ofcommittee to say, I'm
recommending this teacher to bereleased, and there's a bunch of
(22:05):
parents and kids theresupporting that teacher, and we
still have to hold accountable.
'cause we know what theexpectation is.
We know what we're supposed tobe doing.
We know whether kids are beinghurt or not, we still have to
stand our ground even among thatpressure.
I've been in that situation andstill got released because I had
(22:27):
the proper documentation anddata, the support that I've
really bent over backwards tohelp that teacher along the way.
And if I wouldn't have had that,it would've just been an
opinion.
Bryan (2) (22:40):
And I have seen it both ways and thank you for
saying that, Mark, you, you'reabsolutely right.
I've seen the, where the, theschool board has said, we'll
give this teacher another yearbecause they felt that the data
was not appropriate or not ascomplete as it should be.
I've also been in a situationwhere parents were there and the
school board actually stoppedthe meeting, had a private
(23:02):
session.
What do you have in order forthis teacher to be released
because they were, they, they'regonna face the pressure of the
parents as well.
So we had to have our ducks in arow, as it were.
We had to have the data saying,this is what the kids aren't
doing, this is what they're notlearning.
And then the board had thecourage to go back out there and
(23:25):
saying, we're not going to hirethis teacher because of this.
So you're absolutely right.
So when you talk about the SR 3,the SR 3 has been proven to be
an effective program.
We've used it, we've seen itwork.
We're giving educators anopportunity to take a program
that will provide documentation,utilize data, but at the same
(23:47):
time, help support the teachersin question so we can give them,
as you said support them todeath.
Mark (2) (23:55):
And, and it's gotta be all good intentions, the best of
intentions of trying to helpthat teacher be successful.
And then if you do, then you'vereally coached them through
their own death and they'vechosen that avenue.
they've chosen it through their,behavior, their desires, their
wants, maybe even their ownknowledge or skillset.
They just can't quite get tothat level.
Bryan (2) (24:16):
Oh, absolutely education is not for everyone.
Mark (2) (24:20):
It's hard work too.
I people think that they gettheir summers off and everything
else.
I mean, it's hard work.
It is hard thinking all day,being on the top of your game.
Teachers are worn out by the endof the day.
Bryan (2) (24:34):
And I wanna make sure we close this session by saying
we are in support of teachers.
I had a teacher tell me they do900 shows a year, 180 days, five
classes.
They do 900 presentations ayear.
And that is true in certainways, but at the same time, I.
We wanna support you in thosepresentations, but we also gotta
(24:55):
make sure the audience you'representing to is learning the
material they have to learn.
Mark (2) (25:00):
Oh, that's deep buddy.
That's a.
Bryan (2) (25:03):
Well, with that being said, Thank you for joining us
today on Educational Relevance,Bye-bye.
Cedric (25:09):
Thanks for listening.
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