August 5, 2024 • 18 mins
Bryan Wright and Mark McBeth discuss part three of the Turnaround 4CPlan.
Once Climate and Culture is implemented with fidelity, schools are ready for true academic change that is sustainable. This usually occurs in year three.
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
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Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0956 (00:00):
Welcome to educational relevance.
(00:01):
I'm Bryan Wright.
I'm currently an adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University.
I have also served in a lead,administrative capacity in
schools for 25 plus years.
My partner in crime here is MarkMacbeth, who is also a
turnaround principal in his ownright, but also an author and
(00:21):
has written books regarding,student leadership.
Right now we're going to betalking about the third, leg of
our Turnaround 4C plan,curriculum This is such an
important piece, Mark, becausethis is when we see true
academic change taking place inkids and in schools.
The first thing we talked aboutwith the Turnaround 4C plan is
that we incorporated climate.
(00:43):
and that's who we are.
Then we talked about culture,what we do.
Now today is going to becurriculum: how we do it.
One last thing I will say beforeI turn this over to you, Mark, I
want to make sure I get youryour feedback on this is that we
need to make sure that thosefirst two pieces are,
implemented successfully becausewe want to make sure we gathered
a bunch of wins.
(01:03):
We've seen some positive thingstake place.
We have gauged our wins andlosses accordingly.
We think we got a significanthigher number of wins and than
losses.
Now we're talking about truechange in schools and how we
going to deal with that.
So Mark, I'm going to turn itover to you.
what do you think about that?
mark_3_07-31-2024_0956 (01:18):
culture, and now curriculum.
The idea is, we also talk a lotabout code.
You, talked about your code andetc.
That, code, has laid thefoundation for climate to exist.
Lays and embeds itself intoculture, but it's really, really
(01:38):
setting the tone for longevityhow we get to longevity, how do
we get to sustainability?
How do we move to higherassessment scores?
How do we higher learning?
Is curriculum.
I just would reemphasize, ifprincipals who jumped straight
to curriculum have not laid thatfoundation.
(02:00):
That code is essential and theclimate and culture to get to
that culture.
So inside a culture, want totalk about how we're teaching
every day.
What standards we're teachingevery day, how we're assessing
those every day.
And how does that fit into ourculture?
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (02:19):
Well, Mark, you know, one of the
things that teachers are mostprotected of is their
curriculum, what they'reteaching.
That's why it's so importantthat we establish those wins
early and often that we'veestablished winnings in climate
that we've seen success as faras school improvement, we've
embedded the changes we've hadin any disciplinary ideas or any
(02:43):
goal setting we've had.
We want to talk about thosegoals as well.
How those goals fit into thecurriculum piece the goals we're
talking about, of course,culture, a viable curriculum,
student and staff engagement,and of course, leadership
density, or at least capacity.
So yes, each one of those thingsnow become a key part of how
(03:03):
we're going to incorporate thecurriculum.
And one more thing we want tomake sure we talk about the
connections piece.
All right.
And connecting all four pieces.
So now when we talk aboutchanging curriculum, we're
saying, Hey, this is how eachone of those goals is going to
be affected positively in orderto make sure teachers are
benefiting and students are themost benefiting, benefiting
(03:24):
from, the change that we'retalking about.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (03:25):
And it's really curriculum is
powerful for teachers becausethey know their content.
They're a math teacher, Englishteacher, they're elementary
school.
They're, they're an all contentteacher.
They know that subject matter.
And then, if a teacher that'sbeen there three, four, five or
longer years, they've kind ofconditioned themselves to a
(03:47):
certain methodology of teachingas well and what they want to
deliver.
You and I have been in schoolswhere the butterfly unit really
has no connection to thestandards we're teaching, but
the teacher taught it for 10years already.
It just feels, and the kids loveit.
But it really doesn't move themforward in the standard, and
it's hard shift one of thethings you said kind of made me
(04:10):
think scaffolding.
We do that inside of aclassroom.
A teacher with a curriculumscaffolds their learning.
So they take this content, andthey build on it, and they build
on it, and build on it, and thenall of a sudden the student's
able to problem solve, anddevelop, and do higher order
thinking, right?
One of the things we need tokeep in mind as a turnaround
principle, your curriculumstarts with that climate and
(04:34):
then it goes, and then it goesto the culture and then it goes
to curriculum.
That is our scaffolding.
are up what we're doing and ifwe don't scale, It's like trying
to get, get kids to do higherorder thinking without even
having any sort of generalknowledge or content even to
relate to so you have toscaffold.
(04:55):
We have to delay thatfoundation.
So that scaffolding kind of cameto mind when you were just
talking that I think is prettypowerful.
And I think it kind ofsummarizes some of what we've
talked about before But one ofthe things I guess I'm asking
you is what are some of thethings that you do to start to
embed longevity using curriculumin some of the schools you've
(05:17):
been in?
Because you've really turnedaround a lot of schools.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (05:20):
Oh, well, Mark, thanks for asking
that question.
We want to make sure two things.
One the goals we set, and that'swhy I said the goals are such an
important piece.
It's not the fact that we didn'thave a viable curriculum.
We still had a viable curriculumeven as we were incorporating
climate and culture.
There still was a curriculumthere, but what we want to do is
twofold.
One, we want to make sure weeliminate the Inner workings of
(05:46):
a program so that we can focuson nothing but the academics, i.
e.
that's about discipline.
You know, a lot of schools I'vegone to there's a thought that
since discipline was out ofcontrol, school was out of
control with some degrees ofdiscipline, then that was
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (06:02):
Yeah,
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0 (06:03):
negatively enhancing instruction.
So what we had to do waseliminate those things, as far
as discipline is concerned,incorporate the, five step plan,
incorporate a discipline matrixso that we can say, okay, now.
We have successfully implementedthis idea, these structures.
So now we think you can focus oninstruction.
(06:24):
Then the second thing we want tomake sure we talked about is
that when we talk about culture,okay, we want kids to realize,
Hey, we're here for youracademics.
Now for you, we're not here tothrow you out of school.
We're here to enhance yourinstruction.
We want you to be ready.
So in four years, if you in ahigh school and you start ninth
grade, we want you to startthinking about post high school
education and make sure I sayone more thing when I say post
(06:46):
high school, we're not talkingabout this as a college, Mark,
we're talking about post highschool education
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (06:49):
right.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (06:49):
as going into a trade, no, going to
college, is that what you want.
Hey, we tell somebody, we thinkyou're just as important to us.
If you're going to March tooland die as you are going to
Harvard, we want you to go andbe successful after you get out
of our building.
So these are things we want tomake sure that's why the culture
is so embedded.
So we still have a viablecurriculum, but right now we're
(07:11):
talking about intensifiedindividual programs that we
think can enhance your school,make sure all kids are
benefiting.
We've always had a, one or twoteachers that wanted to try some
pilot program.
We said, sure, go right ahead,as long it's consistent with
what we're trying to teach Witheverybody in school you can do
that, but now that third year iswhen you start talking about
(07:32):
making some adjustments andchanges
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (07:33):
kind of work on in that third year,
really establishing thattimeline.
Is there something that, thatyou experience to know when you
can really shift to a strongercurriculum movement?
Is there something that you feelwhen you're in a school as a
principal that says, Hey,they're ready?
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (07:50):
Oh, absolutely.
As a matter of fact, there havebeen situations and there's been
some research based on thissituation.
So you can make a change in 12to 18 months in the school And
you're thinking that you canmake those changes in the school
12 to 18 months and you saidclimate and people taking to the
climate in a hurry and you seesome immediate changes and all
(08:10):
of a sudden they fit and they'reready to go.
Then in that second year, I'vedone this in a school and I'm
just using this as an example.
In a second year in a school, wedid a standards based grading as
a pilot program for thedistrict.
And we were the first school toever do that.
And we incorporated that with a,minimum negativity because
(08:30):
teachers felt, comfortable inhow we were going to do it and
they felt at ease, even some ofthe naysayers felt like, okay,
we implemented in a way whereyou can still have some ideas of
how you want to implement yourown grading system.
and during that year, Weactually asked for, a computer
for each one of our kids We gotit through our, board of
(08:50):
education.
Those are two, just two examplesof how we implemented curriculum
type pieces in a second year.
I felt successfully because thefirst year we had quite a high
degree of success.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (09:02):
Yeah, that's
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0956 (09:02):
success the first year.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (09:03):
I don't know if there's a
percentage or not of when yousay.
teachers are ready, but if therewas, it would be that 70-80
percent of your staff is onboard to move to that next stage
for standard based grading.
What they're doing is they'rehaving those conversations
around our code, mine, studentlearning first, rigor,
(09:25):
relevance, relationships,generates results.
unless they adopt that codethey're not willing to have
standard based learning, orstandard based grading because
they're not putting learningfirst yet.
But if they are, then they'reready to move.
And that's why you were able tobe so successful with that.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (09:46):
You know, in the school, we're
talking about, and I can talkabout another, but let's start
with this school we were sosuccessful that we won an award
by the state that first year.
And in that criteria of earningthat award, 86 percent of my
teachers said they weresatisfied with the changes that
we
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:02):
Right?
bryan_3_07-31-2024 (10:02):
implemented.
That first year.
So you had 86 percent of
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:06):
staff felt Yeah, that's
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0956 (10:07):
feeling pretty positive with what's
going on.
You can make changes you feltthat second year because you
felt most of the staff was inagreement and it was ready for
the changes that we wanted toimplement.
So that was very comfortable inthat regard.
Now, that being said, thatdoesn't happen to every school
to make sure I'm clear, but atthe same time that's why, we
want to make sure you, give itsome opportunity and some time.
(10:29):
So you don't want to rush theprocess as it were, as we're
discussing these years.
That's why I said year three isusually when you have time
because the first two years, youreally want to implement with
some degree of fidelity, boththe climate and the culture.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:41):
Let's touch on
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (10:41):
And then that culture piece that you
want to do.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:43):
12 to 18 months a few times.
Michael Follin is who I alwaysadopted.
He said that we could turnaround in school in 12 to 18
months.
I think what he really meanswithin that is we got them on
the right path in 12 to 18months.
Doesn't mean thatsustainability, we can leave the
school and everything's good,right?
What it means is that we gotthem on the right path or
(11:05):
they're thinking forward.
They're thinking within the codethey're moving forward.
That's the key within that.
So let me give you an example ofwhat some people might say,
because it deals withinstruction and deals kind of
with assessment and et cetera,is I worked in school in,
Missouri.
And we also got recognized bythe state for being the most
(11:26):
improved school in math, both inmiddle school and high school.
I was principal over both andalso in science and then in
middle school language arts.
But here's all I did.
I got the teachers to startusing the correct vocabulary
that was associated with thetesting, which is testing
(11:47):
vocabulary.
That is a cultural shift.
It is not curriculum.
I did not create sustainabilityat that point yet.
I think that's the difference iswe're incorporating, those
things in during those first fewyears, but now what we got to do
is go back and say, okay, now,what are the standards we're
(12:09):
teaching now?
Why are we teaching this?
How are we going to assessthose?
How are we going to get kids tothink at a higher order?
Just getting kids to know thevocabulary was not higher order
thinking.
It was not problem solving.
It didn't mean the kids knew thecurriculum better.
Okay.
It's just, they knew how to testbetter, if that makes sense.
(12:30):
it was a gain and it wasessential in moving the culture
forward to be able to talk aboutcurriculum.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (12:36):
Well, one point that you brought up so
clearly in that example, Mark,Was that you had a small thing
you implemented but trust wasbuilt first and teachers felt
trusted, they trusted you enoughSo that when you made that
change But teacher said hey ifMark's saying we can do this to
help us out They feltcomfortable in making that
(12:58):
change and making thatadjustment So you had already
built up a positive climate sothat change could be implemented
quickly And that's the goodthing about what we're just
talking about, making that,making sure.
And again, and two more things Iwant to bring up while you're
talking about this first one,when you talk code, that is the
byword of everything we do andeverything I've done in the
academics is about code and mineof course is Respect is earned,
(13:22):
not just given, but commoncourtesy demanded of everyone.
But then, but the second thingyou talk about when you talk
about code and the developmentof what we're doing, man.
You landed out right there, asfar as the changes we can make
quickly and the changes we do,so that the connection piece is
there where we talk aboutclimate now begets culture,
(13:46):
culture begets curriculum, andas we talk about this and then
the connection piece, whichwe'll discuss later on, we'll
bring all that together.
But yeah, so I'm so glad youbrought up those two points,
Mark.
I really appreciate that youdoing that.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (13:59):
a slightly different topic is,
within this is last week wetalked about culture.
One of the things we said waswe, should set professional
learning communities as a stage,the idea that we get teachers
through the procedures oftalking, just get, getting them
into the mode.
(14:20):
When we moved the curriculum,now that that learning community
of teachers is having deepdevelopmental questions about
how kids learn.
That's that shift.
And we can't have thatconversation early on.
But when we hit curriculum, whenwe're at that stage, now we can
have those teachers having thatdeeper development question
(14:40):
inside those learningcommunities.
So sometimes people try to adoptlearning communities too early
in that climate in the culturestage, and that just doesn't
work for the teachers They'rehaving conversations about stuff
that they don't have a valuesystem associated with yet.
They don't have the coreunderstanding of what
instruction really means we'rehigher order thinking really
(15:02):
means.
I think I wanted to go back andkind of touch on that, that's
when we got teachers reallyengaged, teacher leadership is
really being developed orenhancing the opportunity that
it's more than us.
It's more of us as afacilitator, and them more as
leaders.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (15:20):
That brings back the whole goal of
leadership density andleadership capacity as we talk
about it and building up othersto be leaders besides ourselves.
What you just described Mark isa post COVID 2024 way of
thinking.
Make sure we talk about that.
You know, too many schools, whenthey came back, we talked about
that last week, they reallywanted to jump into the
(15:41):
curriculum piece early, but theydid not set up the culture.
They did not realize kids had tofeel safe in their environment.
They were going to learn.
So now what you're talkingabout, when you talk about the
connection piece and thelearning communities, Man, now,
now they set up those safetynets that kids feel comfortable
back in them schools.
Now that piece you're talkingabout, man, that's going to be
(16:03):
so powerful and it's going toresonate so well with not just
the teachers themselves, but howthey communicate with the
students they have.
So I think that's a great piece.
And I think that I'm so glad youbrought that up, Mark.
I think that works real wellright now and how we're trying
to do it.
Mm
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (16:19):
And I have mentioned also a few times
higher order thinking.
I just want to catch on thisbefore we move out of a
curriculum, we did have JerryValentine on.
Outstanding conversations aboutthe I.
P.
I.
And then just higher orderthinking higher order thinking
collecting the data through theI.
P.
I.
Gets us having those right typeof conversations.
(16:41):
Once again, the teacher's got tobe kind of to that point where
they're ready to have that, thatlearning.
He mentions that also thatsustainability.
But when, we're ready forcurriculum stage, teachers will
have those conversations abouthigher order thinking, deeper
thinking type of questions forkids.
(17:01):
And so that's another stage thatyou're thinking about is when
teachers aren't ready to havethat conversation, then you're
still in culture.
And then when you're, whenyou're ready for curriculum is
when
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:11):
hmm.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (17:12):
have that conversation more about,
Oh, the data from IPI is showingus that we should.
We should really change ourinstructional methodologies to
incorporate more deeper andhigher order thinking.
So you might go back and listento Jerry
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:28):
Well,
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (17:28):
the couple episodes we had earlier
because they were pretty good aswell.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:31):
Well, I'll tell you what, most of our
guest speakers have been sosolid, especially when we're
talking about when we had SueKnapp on, she spoke about
curriculum.
We had both the twosuperintendents on, Dr.
Sarah Jerome and Ms.
Sue Alexander.
And they've discussed about as,as superintendents, how they
incorporate student learning andtheir guise as leaders in the
districts.
(17:52):
So I think each one of thembrings certain pieces to the
table.
And then when we talk aboutconnection next week, I'm sure
we're going to talk about FrankDavila and talk about the
connection piece that he bringsto the table and how it was so
successful and actually gotsomething called G.I.S.T.
I like to talk about what wediscussed that next week, but in
the future, Mark, I think we hitcurriculum pretty well today,
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (18:10):
time we hit it really well, I thought
there was some good, goodanalogies, good examples today.
Next, connections.
We're going to try to bringeverything together.
That's the next essential stepto create long term
sustainability, which we want tohave.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_ (18:23):
Absolutely.
Thank you very much forlistening to our part of
educational relevance on acurriculum, and we'll continue
our series next with connectionsThank you very much.
Welcome to educational relevance.
(00:01):
I'm Bryan Wright.
I'm currently an adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University.
I have also served in a lead,administrative capacity in
schools for 25 plus years.
My partner in crime here is MarkMacbeth, who is also a
turnaround principal in his ownright, but also an author and
(00:21):
has written books regarding,student leadership.
Right now we're going to betalking about the third, leg of
our Turnaround 4C plan,curriculum This is such an
important piece, Mark, becausethis is when we see true
academic change taking place inkids and in schools.
The first thing we talked aboutwith the Turnaround 4C plan is
that we incorporated climate.
(00:43):
and that's who we are.
Then we talked about culture,what we do.
Now today is going to becurriculum: how we do it.
One last thing I will say beforeI turn this over to you, Mark, I
want to make sure I get youryour feedback on this is that we
need to make sure that thosefirst two pieces are,
implemented successfully becausewe want to make sure we gathered
a bunch of wins.
(01:03):
We've seen some positive thingstake place.
We have gauged our wins andlosses accordingly.
We think we got a significanthigher number of wins and than
losses.
Now we're talking about truechange in schools and how we
going to deal with that.
So Mark, I'm going to turn itover to you.
what do you think about that?
mark_3_07-31-2024_0956 (01:18):
culture, and now curriculum.
The idea is, we also talk a lotabout code.
You, talked about your code andetc.
That, code, has laid thefoundation for climate to exist.
Lays and embeds itself intoculture, but it's really, really
(01:38):
setting the tone for longevityhow we get to longevity, how do
we get to sustainability?
How do we move to higherassessment scores?
How do we higher learning?
Is curriculum.
I just would reemphasize, ifprincipals who jumped straight
to curriculum have not laid thatfoundation.
(02:00):
That code is essential and theclimate and culture to get to
that culture.
So inside a culture, want totalk about how we're teaching
every day.
What standards we're teachingevery day, how we're assessing
those every day.
And how does that fit into ourculture?
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (02:19):
Well, Mark, you know, one of the
things that teachers are mostprotected of is their
curriculum, what they'reteaching.
That's why it's so importantthat we establish those wins
early and often that we'veestablished winnings in climate
that we've seen success as faras school improvement, we've
embedded the changes we've hadin any disciplinary ideas or any
(02:43):
goal setting we've had.
We want to talk about thosegoals as well.
How those goals fit into thecurriculum piece the goals we're
talking about, of course,culture, a viable curriculum,
student and staff engagement,and of course, leadership
density, or at least capacity.
So yes, each one of those thingsnow become a key part of how
(03:03):
we're going to incorporate thecurriculum.
And one more thing we want tomake sure we talk about the
connections piece.
All right.
And connecting all four pieces.
So now when we talk aboutchanging curriculum, we're
saying, Hey, this is how eachone of those goals is going to
be affected positively in orderto make sure teachers are
benefiting and students are themost benefiting, benefiting
(03:24):
from, the change that we'retalking about.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (03:25):
And it's really curriculum is
powerful for teachers becausethey know their content.
They're a math teacher, Englishteacher, they're elementary
school.
They're, they're an all contentteacher.
They know that subject matter.
And then, if a teacher that'sbeen there three, four, five or
longer years, they've kind ofconditioned themselves to a
(03:47):
certain methodology of teachingas well and what they want to
deliver.
You and I have been in schoolswhere the butterfly unit really
has no connection to thestandards we're teaching, but
the teacher taught it for 10years already.
It just feels, and the kids loveit.
But it really doesn't move themforward in the standard, and
it's hard shift one of thethings you said kind of made me
(04:10):
think scaffolding.
We do that inside of aclassroom.
A teacher with a curriculumscaffolds their learning.
So they take this content, andthey build on it, and they build
on it, and build on it, and thenall of a sudden the student's
able to problem solve, anddevelop, and do higher order
thinking, right?
One of the things we need tokeep in mind as a turnaround
principle, your curriculumstarts with that climate and
(04:34):
then it goes, and then it goesto the culture and then it goes
to curriculum.
That is our scaffolding.
are up what we're doing and ifwe don't scale, It's like trying
to get, get kids to do higherorder thinking without even
having any sort of generalknowledge or content even to
relate to so you have toscaffold.
(04:55):
We have to delay thatfoundation.
So that scaffolding kind of cameto mind when you were just
talking that I think is prettypowerful.
And I think it kind ofsummarizes some of what we've
talked about before But one ofthe things I guess I'm asking
you is what are some of thethings that you do to start to
embed longevity using curriculumin some of the schools you've
(05:17):
been in?
Because you've really turnedaround a lot of schools.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (05:20):
Oh, well, Mark, thanks for asking
that question.
We want to make sure two things.
One the goals we set, and that'swhy I said the goals are such an
important piece.
It's not the fact that we didn'thave a viable curriculum.
We still had a viable curriculumeven as we were incorporating
climate and culture.
There still was a curriculumthere, but what we want to do is
twofold.
One, we want to make sure weeliminate the Inner workings of
(05:46):
a program so that we can focuson nothing but the academics, i.
e.
that's about discipline.
You know, a lot of schools I'vegone to there's a thought that
since discipline was out ofcontrol, school was out of
control with some degrees ofdiscipline, then that was
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (06:02):
Yeah,
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0 (06:03):
negatively enhancing instruction.
So what we had to do waseliminate those things, as far
as discipline is concerned,incorporate the, five step plan,
incorporate a discipline matrixso that we can say, okay, now.
We have successfully implementedthis idea, these structures.
So now we think you can focus oninstruction.
(06:24):
Then the second thing we want tomake sure we talked about is
that when we talk about culture,okay, we want kids to realize,
Hey, we're here for youracademics.
Now for you, we're not here tothrow you out of school.
We're here to enhance yourinstruction.
We want you to be ready.
So in four years, if you in ahigh school and you start ninth
grade, we want you to startthinking about post high school
education and make sure I sayone more thing when I say post
(06:46):
high school, we're not talkingabout this as a college, Mark,
we're talking about post highschool education
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (06:49):
right.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (06:49):
as going into a trade, no, going to
college, is that what you want.
Hey, we tell somebody, we thinkyou're just as important to us.
If you're going to March tooland die as you are going to
Harvard, we want you to go andbe successful after you get out
of our building.
So these are things we want tomake sure that's why the culture
is so embedded.
So we still have a viablecurriculum, but right now we're
(07:11):
talking about intensifiedindividual programs that we
think can enhance your school,make sure all kids are
benefiting.
We've always had a, one or twoteachers that wanted to try some
pilot program.
We said, sure, go right ahead,as long it's consistent with
what we're trying to teach Witheverybody in school you can do
that, but now that third year iswhen you start talking about
(07:32):
making some adjustments andchanges
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (07:33):
kind of work on in that third year,
really establishing thattimeline.
Is there something that, thatyou experience to know when you
can really shift to a strongercurriculum movement?
Is there something that you feelwhen you're in a school as a
principal that says, Hey,they're ready?
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (07:50):
Oh, absolutely.
As a matter of fact, there havebeen situations and there's been
some research based on thissituation.
So you can make a change in 12to 18 months in the school And
you're thinking that you canmake those changes in the school
12 to 18 months and you saidclimate and people taking to the
climate in a hurry and you seesome immediate changes and all
(08:10):
of a sudden they fit and they'reready to go.
Then in that second year, I'vedone this in a school and I'm
just using this as an example.
In a second year in a school, wedid a standards based grading as
a pilot program for thedistrict.
And we were the first school toever do that.
And we incorporated that with a,minimum negativity because
(08:30):
teachers felt, comfortable inhow we were going to do it and
they felt at ease, even some ofthe naysayers felt like, okay,
we implemented in a way whereyou can still have some ideas of
how you want to implement yourown grading system.
and during that year, Weactually asked for, a computer
for each one of our kids We gotit through our, board of
(08:50):
education.
Those are two, just two examplesof how we implemented curriculum
type pieces in a second year.
I felt successfully because thefirst year we had quite a high
degree of success.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (09:02):
Yeah, that's
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0956 (09:02):
success the first year.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (09:03):
I don't know if there's a
percentage or not of when yousay.
teachers are ready, but if therewas, it would be that 70-80
percent of your staff is onboard to move to that next stage
for standard based grading.
What they're doing is they'rehaving those conversations
around our code, mine, studentlearning first, rigor,
(09:25):
relevance, relationships,generates results.
unless they adopt that codethey're not willing to have
standard based learning, orstandard based grading because
they're not putting learningfirst yet.
But if they are, then they'reready to move.
And that's why you were able tobe so successful with that.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (09:46):
You know, in the school, we're
talking about, and I can talkabout another, but let's start
with this school we were sosuccessful that we won an award
by the state that first year.
And in that criteria of earningthat award, 86 percent of my
teachers said they weresatisfied with the changes that
we
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:02):
Right?
bryan_3_07-31-2024 (10:02):
implemented.
That first year.
So you had 86 percent of
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:06):
staff felt Yeah, that's
bryan_3_07-31-2024_0956 (10:07):
feeling pretty positive with what's
going on.
You can make changes you feltthat second year because you
felt most of the staff was inagreement and it was ready for
the changes that we wanted toimplement.
So that was very comfortable inthat regard.
Now, that being said, thatdoesn't happen to every school
to make sure I'm clear, but atthe same time that's why, we
want to make sure you, give itsome opportunity and some time.
(10:29):
So you don't want to rush theprocess as it were, as we're
discussing these years.
That's why I said year three isusually when you have time
because the first two years, youreally want to implement with
some degree of fidelity, boththe climate and the culture.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:41):
Let's touch on
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (10:41):
And then that culture piece that you
want to do.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (10:43):
12 to 18 months a few times.
Michael Follin is who I alwaysadopted.
He said that we could turnaround in school in 12 to 18
months.
I think what he really meanswithin that is we got them on
the right path in 12 to 18months.
Doesn't mean thatsustainability, we can leave the
school and everything's good,right?
What it means is that we gotthem on the right path or
(11:05):
they're thinking forward.
They're thinking within the codethey're moving forward.
That's the key within that.
So let me give you an example ofwhat some people might say,
because it deals withinstruction and deals kind of
with assessment and et cetera,is I worked in school in,
Missouri.
And we also got recognized bythe state for being the most
(11:26):
improved school in math, both inmiddle school and high school.
I was principal over both andalso in science and then in
middle school language arts.
But here's all I did.
I got the teachers to startusing the correct vocabulary
that was associated with thetesting, which is testing
(11:47):
vocabulary.
That is a cultural shift.
It is not curriculum.
I did not create sustainabilityat that point yet.
I think that's the difference iswe're incorporating, those
things in during those first fewyears, but now what we got to do
is go back and say, okay, now,what are the standards we're
(12:09):
teaching now?
Why are we teaching this?
How are we going to assessthose?
How are we going to get kids tothink at a higher order?
Just getting kids to know thevocabulary was not higher order
thinking.
It was not problem solving.
It didn't mean the kids knew thecurriculum better.
Okay.
It's just, they knew how to testbetter, if that makes sense.
(12:30):
it was a gain and it wasessential in moving the culture
forward to be able to talk aboutcurriculum.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (12:36):
Well, one point that you brought up so
clearly in that example, Mark,Was that you had a small thing
you implemented but trust wasbuilt first and teachers felt
trusted, they trusted you enoughSo that when you made that
change But teacher said hey ifMark's saying we can do this to
help us out They feltcomfortable in making that
(12:58):
change and making thatadjustment So you had already
built up a positive climate sothat change could be implemented
quickly And that's the goodthing about what we're just
talking about, making that,making sure.
And again, and two more things Iwant to bring up while you're
talking about this first one,when you talk code, that is the
byword of everything we do andeverything I've done in the
academics is about code and mineof course is Respect is earned,
(13:22):
not just given, but commoncourtesy demanded of everyone.
But then, but the second thingyou talk about when you talk
about code and the developmentof what we're doing, man.
You landed out right there, asfar as the changes we can make
quickly and the changes we do,so that the connection piece is
there where we talk aboutclimate now begets culture,
(13:46):
culture begets curriculum, andas we talk about this and then
the connection piece, whichwe'll discuss later on, we'll
bring all that together.
But yeah, so I'm so glad youbrought up those two points,
Mark.
I really appreciate that youdoing that.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (13:59):
a slightly different topic is,
within this is last week wetalked about culture.
One of the things we said waswe, should set professional
learning communities as a stage,the idea that we get teachers
through the procedures oftalking, just get, getting them
into the mode.
(14:20):
When we moved the curriculum,now that that learning community
of teachers is having deepdevelopmental questions about
how kids learn.
That's that shift.
And we can't have thatconversation early on.
But when we hit curriculum, whenwe're at that stage, now we can
have those teachers having thatdeeper development question
(14:40):
inside those learningcommunities.
So sometimes people try to adoptlearning communities too early
in that climate in the culturestage, and that just doesn't
work for the teachers They'rehaving conversations about stuff
that they don't have a valuesystem associated with yet.
They don't have the coreunderstanding of what
instruction really means we'rehigher order thinking really
(15:02):
means.
I think I wanted to go back andkind of touch on that, that's
when we got teachers reallyengaged, teacher leadership is
really being developed orenhancing the opportunity that
it's more than us.
It's more of us as afacilitator, and them more as
leaders.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (15:20):
That brings back the whole goal of
leadership density andleadership capacity as we talk
about it and building up othersto be leaders besides ourselves.
What you just described Mark isa post COVID 2024 way of
thinking.
Make sure we talk about that.
You know, too many schools, whenthey came back, we talked about
that last week, they reallywanted to jump into the
(15:41):
curriculum piece early, but theydid not set up the culture.
They did not realize kids had tofeel safe in their environment.
They were going to learn.
So now what you're talkingabout, when you talk about the
connection piece and thelearning communities, Man, now,
now they set up those safetynets that kids feel comfortable
back in them schools.
Now that piece you're talkingabout, man, that's going to be
(16:03):
so powerful and it's going toresonate so well with not just
the teachers themselves, but howthey communicate with the
students they have.
So I think that's a great piece.
And I think that I'm so glad youbrought that up, Mark.
I think that works real wellright now and how we're trying
to do it.
Mm
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (16:19):
And I have mentioned also a few times
higher order thinking.
I just want to catch on thisbefore we move out of a
curriculum, we did have JerryValentine on.
Outstanding conversations aboutthe I.
P.
I.
And then just higher orderthinking higher order thinking
collecting the data through theI.
P.
I.
Gets us having those right typeof conversations.
(16:41):
Once again, the teacher's got tobe kind of to that point where
they're ready to have that, thatlearning.
He mentions that also thatsustainability.
But when, we're ready forcurriculum stage, teachers will
have those conversations abouthigher order thinking, deeper
thinking type of questions forkids.
(17:01):
And so that's another stage thatyou're thinking about is when
teachers aren't ready to havethat conversation, then you're
still in culture.
And then when you're, whenyou're ready for curriculum is
when
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:11):
hmm.
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (17:12):
have that conversation more about,
Oh, the data from IPI is showingus that we should.
We should really change ourinstructional methodologies to
incorporate more deeper andhigher order thinking.
So you might go back and listento Jerry
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:28):
Well,
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (17:28):
the couple episodes we had earlier
because they were pretty good aswell.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_095637 (17:31):
Well, I'll tell you what, most of our
guest speakers have been sosolid, especially when we're
talking about when we had SueKnapp on, she spoke about
curriculum.
We had both the twosuperintendents on, Dr.
Sarah Jerome and Ms.
Sue Alexander.
And they've discussed about as,as superintendents, how they
incorporate student learning andtheir guise as leaders in the
districts.
(17:52):
So I think each one of thembrings certain pieces to the
table.
And then when we talk aboutconnection next week, I'm sure
we're going to talk about FrankDavila and talk about the
connection piece that he bringsto the table and how it was so
successful and actually gotsomething called G.I.S.T.
I like to talk about what wediscussed that next week, but in
the future, Mark, I think we hitcurriculum pretty well today,
mark_3_07-31-2024_095629 (18:10):
time we hit it really well, I thought
there was some good, goodanalogies, good examples today.
Next, connections.
We're going to try to bringeverything together.
That's the next essential stepto create long term
sustainability, which we want tohave.
bryan_3_07-31-2024_ (18:23):
Absolutely.
Thank you very much forlistening to our part of
educational relevance on acurriculum, and we'll continue
our series next with connectionsThank you very much.
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