September 24, 2024 • 23 mins
The Discipline Matrix is a progressive disciplinary model to be used by staff that brings consistency to student consequences for minor behavior infractions. Teachers are empowered to address student behavior issues before it moves to administration. It identifies inappropriate student behaviors and provides consequences for their actions but also allows fairness in providing students opportunities to make informed decisions.
When implemented with fidelity and consistency, school climate becomes more positive and the culture of student learning is enhanced.
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
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Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_1108 (00:00):
Welcome to Educational Relevance, a
platform for experiencededucators to share proven
successful strategies to educatetoday's students.
I am Bryan Wright.
I'm currently a adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University in Wisconsin.
I have over 30 years ofsuccessful experience as an
administrator, in the publicschool setting.
(00:21):
Alongside me is Mark McBeth,experienced administrator, as
well as a published
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (00:27):
I'm doing super thanks.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (00:29):
All right, in past episodes, Mark,
what we've done is talk aboutthe Turnaround 4C plan.
We talk about climate, who weare, culture, what we do.
We talk about curriculum, how wedo it.
Then we talk about connections,why all of this matters.
And the reason we're doing this,Mark, so we can talk about
different avenues on howeducators, teachers,
(00:49):
administration and districtemployees can be successful and
how they working with our youthof today.
Mark, what we're going todiscuss today is The Discipline
Matrix And The Discipline Matrixis what we've been utilizing in
different schools.
But before we continue withthat, Mark, I think we need to
talk about how it was created
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (01:07):
Yeah.
So I actually, I'm a co authorbecause I sat down with a group
of teachers to work on.
The idea is classroom should beabout student learning first.
When you have a school that,where discipline becomes a more
major, conversation amongteachers, among administrators,
(01:29):
among students, then somethinghas to happen.
In the particular school wherethe Matrix was born, we had
teachers who, were kind ofinsisting that when they would
send a kid out of a classroom,that there was this equal
punishment.
Every kid should be suspended.
Should be suspended for this,should be suspended for that.
(01:51):
And you know, and I think abouthow much is a kid learning when
they're suspended when they'reat home?
You know, what do they gain?
Well, then what would happen isthey come to the office and the
school administrator that was incharge of that particular
student's discipline would say,you know, that really wasn't
that big of a situation.
I don't think that kid shouldhave ever been sent to the
(02:13):
office.
I'm just going to give the kid awarning and send them back that
frustration of.
Between the teachers and schooladministrators, created a
climate that was not conduciveto learning.
And so, as we go back to theidea of climate.
What it becomes is who we are isa school of people not
(02:39):
collaborating together with thesame cause, same purpose, and an
outline, an understanding ofwhat each person's role really
is.
And that's where The DisciplineMatrix comes in.
It outlines exactly what therole of the teacher is, what the
role of the student is, what therole of the school
administrators are.
(03:00):
And then it really focuses aboutkeeping kids in the classroom
learning, inside the schoollearning.
So that central focus of sayingstudent learning first becomes a
live reality.
And so The Discipline Matrix wascreated around that, and working
collaboratively with a group ofteacher leaders.
(03:21):
It wasn't the easiest thing tocreate.
It actually took some effort,because, not everybody in the
room wanted to takeresponsibility or to be able to
say, yeah, when a kid comes tomy office, this is kind of most
likely what's going to happen.
Because there's some leeway inthere, right?
There's a little balance.
But, but the idea is when theycome, this is what happens.
(03:42):
Well, then that needs to beclear and understanding for the
students.
So, that's how The DisciplineMatrix was created, is the idea
of creating equity, ofunderstanding, equity of
expectations, equity of of theconsequences, but for kids, but
really trying to keep them inthe classroom successful doing
(04:05):
what needs to be done.
So let me give you a coupleexamples of why, personally, I
felt this too.
So when I walk into a classroomand there's an English teacher,
teaching, they often areassigning reading or, research
papers or those type of things.
But when they get frustratedwith the kid, and they have a
(04:27):
kid write paragraphs, or makethem do an essay, or make them
do reading as a consequence, asa punishment, then learning is
not exciting.
When they send out a kid fortalking in the classroom, And,
even if the kid was being kindof sarcastic about a joke, but
they're that they kind of couldhave just been humor in the
(04:48):
classroom instead to get sentout, then now they lose this
long term motivation abouteducation.
And so those type of things.
That I would see in theclassroom going on, where the
academics were part of thepunishment, I didn't like.
And then the other thing was, isengagement of other adults, like
(05:10):
parents or guardians orcaretakers.
Getting them involved to help achild, you know, be more
progressive inside the school.
So, so those are the type ofthings that led me to help give
guidance to that.
The Discipline Matrix was apretty cool tool.
It really helped move a schoolforward, it changed the climate.
But the cool thing was, is I wasable to give it to you at some
(05:32):
point in our conversations.
And you've taken it to a wholeother level.
You've added a five step processinside there.
You've added, multiple,Revisions as you've worked with
different school administratorsacross the, the nation.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you've done with it, Bryan.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (05:52):
Well, one question I wish to ask you,
Mark, and this is something thatI thought was so important what
you were talking about.
Why is it, Mark, that so manyteachers, when it comes to
classroom, discipline thinksthat discipline is the major
thing instead of instruction.
In so far as getting kids to getback on board or getting kids to
be buying into what they'retrying to accomplish.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110 (06:14):
sometimes they don't understand where a
kid comes from.
So a, a kid comes with multiplebackgrounds, multiple dimensions
of stuff's happening.
We, don't always know.
What that kid woke up to or evenif they woke up, I remember I
used to have a kid that used tocome to school every day and I
remember talking to myadministrator about it.
(06:34):
I was a school teacher there andhe said, well, mark, you know,
he sleeps on the park benchevery night.
You know, if he's 5 minuteslate, it's because the city bus
was late.
Because that's where he getspicked up at, you know, and if
he's tired, it's because it wasa hard night.
It was raining last night orwhatever.
And I'm like, geez, is hehomeless?
(06:56):
Well, he, it's a familysituation where that's where he
sleeps, we don't know that.
And so, teachers sometimes justdon't understand the kids or the
dynamics of culturaldifferences, you know, or ethnic
differences or family dynamicsand those type of things.
And I think sometimes we don'tunderstand that kids really want
(07:18):
love.
They want to belong.
They want to have fun.
They want to have freedom ofchoice.
And when those things are beingtaken away from them, they act
out.
And as a teacher, if we are ableto engage them back into those
things, we can keep them in theclassroom and engaged.
So I think that's whereteachers, just want kids to come
and be motivated and desire towant to learn.
(07:40):
And we really got to teach themthat there's a safe place.
And I think that's why teachersfeel like discipline is the
number one issue in the school.
It's just because they justdon't, understand their kids
well enough and they know theircontent really well, so they
want to teach their content.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (07:57):
Well, I tell you, Mark, let me build
upon a couple of things youspoke over already, and I really
appreciate what you said,because the whole idea about
discipline is not to punish thestudent it's to make sure we get
students stay on focus so he canbecome a better academian than
anything else.
That's what disciplines supposedto be about.
So I saw your disciplinarymerits and I said, wow, this is
(08:18):
a pretty good plan.
And it broke down into levels.
what I want to see about it isthat we're talking about
progressive discipline and thewhole idea, and you said it
yourselves, what are the hiddenfactors that causes this student
to have any issues that they mayhave?
what we did, therefore, wasinstill a program, called the
five step plan.
Now, I had utilized the fivestep plan previously.
(08:42):
And we'll talk about those fivesteps shortly.
But what we did was take thefive step plan that was there,
and then we had a mildprogressive discipline.
And let me make sure I talkabout those five steps right
now.
The first step, of course, is awarning.
Conference with the teacher whenthe student is doing something
that might be insubordination.
The second offense is a warning.
Parents, they have to becontacted by the teacher.
(09:03):
Third offense is teacherintervention.
Parent contacted.
You could have a parent meetingif you wish to.
But then the fourth offense issomething you brought up as
well.
If teacher intervention, parentcontacted, but support staff is
notified.
Counselor, the social worker,the special ed teacher, there's
something else.
We want to make sure what'sgoing on in the student's life
(09:23):
before we go to the fifth step,which is then the administrative
referral.
We felt that was so importantthat we incorporate, Mark, those
progressive steps andprogressive disciplines so that
the first thing we do, we do notdo is throw a student out of
school.
We want to make sure what'sgoing on with that student, how
can we assist that student.
So we put these step plans intoplace and we also took in that
(09:45):
disciplinary referral that wealso talk about teacher
interventions and interactions.
So what does teacherconsequences?
So we empowered the teacher.
Let's give the teacher the powerto say, Hey, this is what you're
doing in your classroom.
What can you fix instead of meor you or any administrator,
therefore taking away theteacher's power and saying,
okay, we'll take care of thesituation immediately.
(10:07):
Let's talk about getting to knowthe student.
Let's talk about what'shappening with that student so
that we can say, let's get thisdone.
And you Mark, What I've done wastake the, this matrix that you
developed, we've incorporated itin a few schools I've been in
quite honestly.
And we have made adjustments, inaccordance with that school.
And again, you said, It's aboutclimate and changing it to a
(10:30):
positive climate.
So you bring in a disciplinematrix.
You're not there to let's throwout all kids.
You're there to say, Hey, let'schange the climate of the
building.
Let it give teachers someempowerment issues so they can
say, we're still what we'redoing.
But at the same time, Let's talkabout helping that student out
as best as possible.
And then after five steps, thestudent does something wrong
continually, then yes, you aregoing to do this.
(10:52):
Then the second thing we'regonna talk about The Discipline
Matrix, which you you'veincorporated is that it does not
refer to major offenses.
If the kid gets into a bigfight, the kid starts fires, has
arson, the kid has drugs on thisperson, does these things.
Then, discipline matrix goesautomatically to level four
(11:12):
along those steps, saying theseare major offenses.
We have to take care of these indifferent way.
But if you notice two thirds itseems like of the issue that
happens in schools are based oneither disruption
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And the five step plan really isthat classroom disruption,
right?
I mean, it's really, I'm notable to teach at the same level.
I want to because of the kidsbehavior.
There's the 5, that's the 5 stepand that's minor violations,
That's what we're dealing withwhich 80%.
Like you said, I would saythat's that's what the the
(11:45):
school level.
Yeah.
They complain about the most.
Now if a school is really offthe hooks and that's why we're
being turned around as aturnaround principal, we might
see more of those heavy levelthree, level four violations
going on in the school.
But as a school administrator,when we implement something like
this, we're making some majordecisions to change the culture
(12:08):
because I think your key is.
Enhancing teachers practices inthe classroom to be able to keep
kids in the classroom, I mean,that's that's what the five step
plans about.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_ (12:20):
Absolutely.
And when you talk about thematrix, discipline matrix, the
important thing we're talkingabout here is making sure give
teacher empowerment, notadministrator empowerment,
teacher empowerment.
So teachers.
Can, can dictate how they, howit goes in their classrooms and
how they dictate learning, howit goes in their classrooms and
how would the discipline affecttheir learning.
(12:41):
But then the second thing we'retalking about is, of course
we're talking about the eventualdiscipline if needed.
And this is about minoroccurrences, but you know, the
day to day things are going onin the classroom.
It what makes that classspecial.
We want that teacher to alwaysknow that classroom, they have a
special, it's built on learning.
It's built on recognizingstudents and individualities as
(13:03):
they are.
And we'll be happy to assist youin that regard.
But at the same time, we want tomake sure we want to understand
that you guys are the essentiallearners, the essential and
people built for learning.
I have to say, that's a learningtool.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (13:18):
So,
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (13:18):
make sure we say about that.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (13:19):
yeah, I think I think that's good.
And I think the thing that I'mlooking at a sample of the
matrix right here in front of methat you had but, you know, it
talks about teacher classroomtype of things that happen
inside of a classroom that youas a teacher need to deal with.
You know, from things like beingtardy to class or cell phones
(13:40):
inside the classroom or notaccepting no as an answer or not
paying attention in classroom.
Those are things that theteacher deals with inside the
classroom and And then what youhave is a list of possible
interventions.
Here's what you can do.
Here's here's a list of things,And then these are all things
that as a teacher, here's someopportunities.
(14:02):
I remember when we firstintroduced this at that school,
when we created the firstdiscipline matrix, we did that.
And then, and then you have itdown here too.
You have unacceptable teacherinterventions, but your list is
like this small.
It's just a little bitty thing.
When, when I did it, I had tocreate this big list that said
you cannot do these because thatwas what was happening.
(14:23):
Some of this stuff was happeningin school.
But I remember I walked down thehallway and I met a teacher that
I knew was not happy with thenew discipline matrix.
And I, I kind of turned sidewaysso I didn't confront her
straight on.
And I said, how are you doing?
And she said, I'm not doinggood.
I'm not, I'm not happy with thisnew matrix thing.
(14:44):
And I said, well, what do youmean?
She said, you took our entirearsenal away from us.
Our entire arsenal.
So her view was that it was warinside the classroom.
She had to have an army ofMissiles and rockets and
everything else to send out akid And so that was one of those
(15:05):
interventions where I went inthe classroom said here then let
me come in and help Give yousome guidance on those type of
things.
How can you address those thingsin the classroom?
You know, that teacher now is aschool administrator down in
Texas, so she, developed theskill sets that she needed.
once she understood the code.
And then I understood how thematrix really could benefit her
(15:26):
classroom.
She, was a really good teacherand, she turned into a, positive
administrator.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (15:32):
Well, you mentioned three things and
make sure you mentioned a code.
And I think code is veryimportant.
But let's make sure if you'regoing to implement the the
disciplinary matrix, one, yougot to make sure you deal with
some degree of fidelity, And yougot to buy into it.
If you don't buy into it, thenit's not going to be effective
for you.
That's the first thing.
Second thing, you want to makesure you're consistent.
in your enforcement of theprogram.
(15:53):
Follow the steps that's there.
That's why we have the five stepplan so we make sure every
teacher knows, hey, what stepare you on?
Administrators say, what stepare you utilizing right now so
we can assist you in thatregard?
We want to make sure.
Then of course, the last thingis making sure we do follow
through.
We want to understand, andhere's an administrator, if a
teacher is going to follow thefive steps and if they do the
(16:14):
five steps with fidelity andconsistency, then you have to
support that teacher.
And you got to say, I know thatyou've done this.
You worked it with this, youcalled in the parent, you called
in the counselor, you foundtrying to find different avenues
and students still doing thethings that they're doing, then
we got to deal with that studentin that way.
We got to make sure weunderstand that.
if that is done.
(16:34):
Then we can make sure we supportthe teacher as well.
We don't want the teacher tofeel that we're not being
supported.
But at the same time, what wefound out in the process of
putting in those five steps, wefound a lot of things that was
going on with that student that
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (16:47):
Right?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (16:48):
that student learning.
You mentioned earlier about thestudent with a home situation
that may be a little bitdifficult.
I know I found out one where astudent was a great student, an
honor student had an issue thatgot into a problem.
We found out his mom and dadwould be divorcing and while
that sounds like that's commonin America, in his world.
That was something so entirely,and this is a high school, so
(17:11):
entirely uncommon to him becausethey were married for so many
years that he
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (17:14):
Yeah.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (17:14):
a hard time with it.
And he was responding in a waythat may not have been as
positive as it was previously.
So we, we have these things wedeal with.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (17:22):
I think, fidelity, consistency,
and follow through are essentialthat you have to implement the
plan.
Teachers, I think, are morefrustrated with school
administrators around disciplinethan anything else.
They, feel like a schooladministrator is either good or
bad based on how they supportthat teacher inside the
(17:42):
classroom.
if something like this doesn'texist already, it's a hard thing
for the teachers to adjust tothe classroom, but it's also
really hard for some schooladministrators.
they have to now be consistent.
So, when we look at the plangoing with that, when a kid's
office level 1 you have it onThe Discipline Matrix is office
(18:04):
level 1A, these are things thatare.
inappropriate behaviors, but thereasons why a teacher should
send them to the office.
And then you have possibleoffice consequences.
So when they come to the office,that that school administrator
only has that list of stuff thatthey can do, And they have to
hold that kid accountable tothat list.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_ (18:24):
Absolutely.
When you talk about disciplineand you talk about the actions
students are taking.
The reason we put those steps inis that we want to make sure
teachers understand that we aresupporting them.
We are following, steps that'sthere.
And that's why it's so importantthat we have those progressive
steps.
And we talk about progressivediscipline, cause we don't want
them to feel that we're notdoing anything at all.
(18:45):
We are doing some things, but atthe same time.
We want to make sure the firstand foremost, is that teacher in
that classroom, not us.
I think that's important whenyou talk about administration
and you're right about assistantprincipals and you're talking
about making sure when youdiscuss the central office, this
is what we're utilizing.
Every school district has itsdisciplinary rules and
(19:07):
regulations, every schooldistrict.
So what you want to do, and whatwe've done before, is
incorporate The DisciplineMatrix within that district's
policies.
So make sure we're following thedistrict policy A, but also
giving the power to the teachersso the teachers feel
comfortable.
What they're ask what we'reasking them to establish as far
as rules and regulations intheir classroom.
(19:28):
And you're absolutely right.
And it is built also upon thatteacher's individual personal
code and how you feeladministration should be
handled.
So we give them that as aguideline, use it as such, and
we're going to continue,hopefully getting that teacher
to be motivated enough to teachthose students the things they
need to know to becomesuccessful academically.
(19:51):
And we're supporting them as faras the best we can so they feel
comfortable in that climate inthat school.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (19:57):
I wanted to touch on before we
wrap up is about a tiered systemof support for teachers.
Teachers need additional supportinside the classroom.
And then there's some teachersthat really struggle with this
concept or school, evenadministrators that struggle a
little bit with that.
Would you, agree once you put amatrix in place?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:17):
Yes.
Do I agree?
Absolutely.
As a matter of fact when we talkabout the tiered model support,
I think that's important.
We discuss before we even talkabout evaluation and we get
tools both on the tiered supportmodel to help educators and
administrators, but also we gotan evaluation program.
That we've established that wecan utilize to assist in how you
(20:38):
want to help the teachers out.
And the first step was going tobe, it's called SR3.
And the first step was going tobe support.
So absolutely.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (20:45):
Well, I got one more question for you
though.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:47):
Go
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (20:48):
Do the students ever see this thing?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:49):
Oh, we think so.
Absolutely.
You want to go through that inclass.
As a matter of fact, we askedteachers to go through it the
first week in school.
We say, here's the program.
Please take a look.
Cause this is school wide.
So we want to make sure thestudents are aware of what's
going on.
So they are understanding thefact that they do have
opportunities.
So when a student comes to seean administrator, eventually you
(21:11):
can say, well, Hey, they didnot, they don't know me.
They didn't give me a chance.
Well, we did.
We talked about this from thebeginning the whole idea is
transparency, everybody to be onthe same page.
As a matter of fact I think I, Ithink we spoke about the first
week.
talking about rules andregulation with, with class
meetings and this sort of thingwith students.
(21:32):
We tell the students, we believein The Discipline Matrix.
That's what we're doing.
But at the same time, we tellthem the same thing.
We tell teachers The DisciplineMatrix does not believe we're
not trying to say we're tryingto punish you.
It's not a punishment tool.
This is a developmental tool.
See how we can assist you andgetting you become better
students.
And we want you to become betteracademic leaders at the same
(21:53):
time.
But the teacher, we want you tobecome better academic leaders.
We are working together so thatwe can achieve success with kids
in the classroom, but also outof the classroom as well.
And lower our
mark_4_09-02-2024_ (22:03):
disciplinary numbers Yeah,
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:04):
as a
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (22:05):
I see even on your matrix, you have
like minimum consequences.
You could go, Oh, dang kid.
I'm sorry, man.
This is your third gangviolation.
You know, it's going to be inschool or out of school
suspension no matter what, butlet's talk more in depth about
this, but you, you know what theconsequence is because you've
seen this list before, right?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:26):
Oh, absolutely.
And you're absolutely right.
And when you talk about studentsthat's where it comes to teacher
empowerment.
You know, when I talk toteachers, you know, teachers
give students a whole lot of
mark_4_09-02-2024_1 (22:37):
opportunity yeah.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:38):
do the right thing.
So they may have done their ownsteps before they go into the
official five step plan.
They may have talked about howthey work with the student.
They even work with this studentall year And so it's up to them
how they want to incorporatethose five steps, how they want
to utilize that.
But we're saying we have a toolthat when you come to
administration, we're going toask you, what have you done?
(22:59):
Where are you at on this thing?
Have you incorporated thecounselor?
Have you incorporated the socialworker or the special ed?
And you talk about special ed,you talk about the special ed
case manager.
What have you done to it?
Get someone else involved andhave you contacted the parent?
Remember, this is a team thing.
This is not just a me thing.
This is a we thing.
when we're talking about thisbeing a we thing.
(23:21):
That's talking about all of usworking alongside and make sure
we help benefit that studentbest as possible to keep them
academically
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (23:28):
right.
So Bryan, where can people findthis matrix if they want to want
to.
Get one.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (23:33):
Well, as always, we'll have our email
addresses down below this thisconversation And you can always
contact us in any way that we'llbe glad to assist you in this
endeavor.
So Mark, I think, Hey,
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (23:43):
You're welcome.
Thank you.
You're, you're helping kids,man.
You're helping kids.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (23:47):
we are helping kids.
And thanks again, Mark, forsaying that.
have a good day.
And we'll talk to you again oneducational relevance.
Thank you, everybody.
Welcome to Educational Relevance, a
platform for experiencededucators to share proven
successful strategies to educatetoday's students.
I am Bryan Wright.
I'm currently a adjunctprofessor at Concordia
University in Wisconsin.
I have over 30 years ofsuccessful experience as an
administrator, in the publicschool setting.
(00:21):
Alongside me is Mark McBeth,experienced administrator, as
well as a published
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (00:27):
I'm doing super thanks.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (00:29):
All right, in past episodes, Mark,
what we've done is talk aboutthe Turnaround 4C plan.
We talk about climate, who weare, culture, what we do.
We talk about curriculum, how wedo it.
Then we talk about connections,why all of this matters.
And the reason we're doing this,Mark, so we can talk about
different avenues on howeducators, teachers,
(00:49):
administration and districtemployees can be successful and
how they working with our youthof today.
Mark, what we're going todiscuss today is The Discipline
Matrix And The Discipline Matrixis what we've been utilizing in
different schools.
But before we continue withthat, Mark, I think we need to
talk about how it was created
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (01:07):
Yeah.
So I actually, I'm a co authorbecause I sat down with a group
of teachers to work on.
The idea is classroom should beabout student learning first.
When you have a school that,where discipline becomes a more
major, conversation amongteachers, among administrators,
(01:29):
among students, then somethinghas to happen.
In the particular school wherethe Matrix was born, we had
teachers who, were kind ofinsisting that when they would
send a kid out of a classroom,that there was this equal
punishment.
Every kid should be suspended.
Should be suspended for this,should be suspended for that.
(01:51):
And you know, and I think abouthow much is a kid learning when
they're suspended when they'reat home?
You know, what do they gain?
Well, then what would happen isthey come to the office and the
school administrator that was incharge of that particular
student's discipline would say,you know, that really wasn't
that big of a situation.
I don't think that kid shouldhave ever been sent to the
(02:13):
office.
I'm just going to give the kid awarning and send them back that
frustration of.
Between the teachers and schooladministrators, created a
climate that was not conduciveto learning.
And so, as we go back to theidea of climate.
What it becomes is who we are isa school of people not
(02:39):
collaborating together with thesame cause, same purpose, and an
outline, an understanding ofwhat each person's role really
is.
And that's where The DisciplineMatrix comes in.
It outlines exactly what therole of the teacher is, what the
role of the student is, what therole of the school
administrators are.
(03:00):
And then it really focuses aboutkeeping kids in the classroom
learning, inside the schoollearning.
So that central focus of sayingstudent learning first becomes a
live reality.
And so The Discipline Matrix wascreated around that, and working
collaboratively with a group ofteacher leaders.
(03:21):
It wasn't the easiest thing tocreate.
It actually took some effort,because, not everybody in the
room wanted to takeresponsibility or to be able to
say, yeah, when a kid comes tomy office, this is kind of most
likely what's going to happen.
Because there's some leeway inthere, right?
There's a little balance.
But, but the idea is when theycome, this is what happens.
(03:42):
Well, then that needs to beclear and understanding for the
students.
So, that's how The DisciplineMatrix was created, is the idea
of creating equity, ofunderstanding, equity of
expectations, equity of of theconsequences, but for kids, but
really trying to keep them inthe classroom successful doing
(04:05):
what needs to be done.
So let me give you a coupleexamples of why, personally, I
felt this too.
So when I walk into a classroomand there's an English teacher,
teaching, they often areassigning reading or, research
papers or those type of things.
But when they get frustratedwith the kid, and they have a
(04:27):
kid write paragraphs, or makethem do an essay, or make them
do reading as a consequence, asa punishment, then learning is
not exciting.
When they send out a kid fortalking in the classroom, And,
even if the kid was being kindof sarcastic about a joke, but
they're that they kind of couldhave just been humor in the
(04:48):
classroom instead to get sentout, then now they lose this
long term motivation abouteducation.
And so those type of things.
That I would see in theclassroom going on, where the
academics were part of thepunishment, I didn't like.
And then the other thing was, isengagement of other adults, like
(05:10):
parents or guardians orcaretakers.
Getting them involved to help achild, you know, be more
progressive inside the school.
So, so those are the type ofthings that led me to help give
guidance to that.
The Discipline Matrix was apretty cool tool.
It really helped move a schoolforward, it changed the climate.
But the cool thing was, is I wasable to give it to you at some
(05:32):
point in our conversations.
And you've taken it to a wholeother level.
You've added a five step processinside there.
You've added, multiple,Revisions as you've worked with
different school administratorsacross the, the nation.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you've done with it, Bryan.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (05:52):
Well, one question I wish to ask you,
Mark, and this is something thatI thought was so important what
you were talking about.
Why is it, Mark, that so manyteachers, when it comes to
classroom, discipline thinksthat discipline is the major
thing instead of instruction.
In so far as getting kids to getback on board or getting kids to
be buying into what they'retrying to accomplish.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110 (06:14):
sometimes they don't understand where a
kid comes from.
So a, a kid comes with multiplebackgrounds, multiple dimensions
of stuff's happening.
We, don't always know.
What that kid woke up to or evenif they woke up, I remember I
used to have a kid that used tocome to school every day and I
remember talking to myadministrator about it.
(06:34):
I was a school teacher there andhe said, well, mark, you know,
he sleeps on the park benchevery night.
You know, if he's 5 minuteslate, it's because the city bus
was late.
Because that's where he getspicked up at, you know, and if
he's tired, it's because it wasa hard night.
It was raining last night orwhatever.
And I'm like, geez, is hehomeless?
(06:56):
Well, he, it's a familysituation where that's where he
sleeps, we don't know that.
And so, teachers sometimes justdon't understand the kids or the
dynamics of culturaldifferences, you know, or ethnic
differences or family dynamicsand those type of things.
And I think sometimes we don'tunderstand that kids really want
(07:18):
love.
They want to belong.
They want to have fun.
They want to have freedom ofchoice.
And when those things are beingtaken away from them, they act
out.
And as a teacher, if we are ableto engage them back into those
things, we can keep them in theclassroom and engaged.
So I think that's whereteachers, just want kids to come
and be motivated and desire towant to learn.
(07:40):
And we really got to teach themthat there's a safe place.
And I think that's why teachersfeel like discipline is the
number one issue in the school.
It's just because they justdon't, understand their kids
well enough and they know theircontent really well, so they
want to teach their content.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (07:57):
Well, I tell you, Mark, let me build
upon a couple of things youspoke over already, and I really
appreciate what you said,because the whole idea about
discipline is not to punish thestudent it's to make sure we get
students stay on focus so he canbecome a better academian than
anything else.
That's what disciplines supposedto be about.
So I saw your disciplinarymerits and I said, wow, this is
(08:18):
a pretty good plan.
And it broke down into levels.
what I want to see about it isthat we're talking about
progressive discipline and thewhole idea, and you said it
yourselves, what are the hiddenfactors that causes this student
to have any issues that they mayhave?
what we did, therefore, wasinstill a program, called the
five step plan.
Now, I had utilized the fivestep plan previously.
(08:42):
And we'll talk about those fivesteps shortly.
But what we did was take thefive step plan that was there,
and then we had a mildprogressive discipline.
And let me make sure I talkabout those five steps right
now.
The first step, of course, is awarning.
Conference with the teacher whenthe student is doing something
that might be insubordination.
The second offense is a warning.
Parents, they have to becontacted by the teacher.
(09:03):
Third offense is teacherintervention.
Parent contacted.
You could have a parent meetingif you wish to.
But then the fourth offense issomething you brought up as
well.
If teacher intervention, parentcontacted, but support staff is
notified.
Counselor, the social worker,the special ed teacher, there's
something else.
We want to make sure what'sgoing on in the student's life
(09:23):
before we go to the fifth step,which is then the administrative
referral.
We felt that was so importantthat we incorporate, Mark, those
progressive steps andprogressive disciplines so that
the first thing we do, we do notdo is throw a student out of
school.
We want to make sure what'sgoing on with that student, how
can we assist that student.
So we put these step plans intoplace and we also took in that
(09:45):
disciplinary referral that wealso talk about teacher
interventions and interactions.
So what does teacherconsequences?
So we empowered the teacher.
Let's give the teacher the powerto say, Hey, this is what you're
doing in your classroom.
What can you fix instead of meor you or any administrator,
therefore taking away theteacher's power and saying,
okay, we'll take care of thesituation immediately.
(10:07):
Let's talk about getting to knowthe student.
Let's talk about what'shappening with that student so
that we can say, let's get thisdone.
And you Mark, What I've done wastake the, this matrix that you
developed, we've incorporated itin a few schools I've been in
quite honestly.
And we have made adjustments, inaccordance with that school.
And again, you said, It's aboutclimate and changing it to a
(10:30):
positive climate.
So you bring in a disciplinematrix.
You're not there to let's throwout all kids.
You're there to say, Hey, let'schange the climate of the
building.
Let it give teachers someempowerment issues so they can
say, we're still what we'redoing.
But at the same time, Let's talkabout helping that student out
as best as possible.
And then after five steps, thestudent does something wrong
continually, then yes, you aregoing to do this.
(10:52):
Then the second thing we'regonna talk about The Discipline
Matrix, which you you'veincorporated is that it does not
refer to major offenses.
If the kid gets into a bigfight, the kid starts fires, has
arson, the kid has drugs on thisperson, does these things.
Then, discipline matrix goesautomatically to level four
(11:12):
along those steps, saying theseare major offenses.
We have to take care of these indifferent way.
But if you notice two thirds itseems like of the issue that
happens in schools are based oneither disruption
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And the five step plan really isthat classroom disruption,
right?
I mean, it's really, I'm notable to teach at the same level.
I want to because of the kidsbehavior.
There's the 5, that's the 5 stepand that's minor violations,
That's what we're dealing withwhich 80%.
Like you said, I would saythat's that's what the the
(11:45):
school level.
Yeah.
They complain about the most.
Now if a school is really offthe hooks and that's why we're
being turned around as aturnaround principal, we might
see more of those heavy levelthree, level four violations
going on in the school.
But as a school administrator,when we implement something like
this, we're making some majordecisions to change the culture
(12:08):
because I think your key is.
Enhancing teachers practices inthe classroom to be able to keep
kids in the classroom, I mean,that's that's what the five step
plans about.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_ (12:20):
Absolutely.
And when you talk about thematrix, discipline matrix, the
important thing we're talkingabout here is making sure give
teacher empowerment, notadministrator empowerment,
teacher empowerment.
So teachers.
Can, can dictate how they, howit goes in their classrooms and
how they dictate learning, howit goes in their classrooms and
how would the discipline affecttheir learning.
(12:41):
But then the second thing we'retalking about is, of course
we're talking about the eventualdiscipline if needed.
And this is about minoroccurrences, but you know, the
day to day things are going onin the classroom.
It what makes that classspecial.
We want that teacher to alwaysknow that classroom, they have a
special, it's built on learning.
It's built on recognizingstudents and individualities as
(13:03):
they are.
And we'll be happy to assist youin that regard.
But at the same time, we want tomake sure we want to understand
that you guys are the essentiallearners, the essential and
people built for learning.
I have to say, that's a learningtool.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (13:18):
So,
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (13:18):
make sure we say about that.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (13:19):
yeah, I think I think that's good.
And I think the thing that I'mlooking at a sample of the
matrix right here in front of methat you had but, you know, it
talks about teacher classroomtype of things that happen
inside of a classroom that youas a teacher need to deal with.
You know, from things like beingtardy to class or cell phones
(13:40):
inside the classroom or notaccepting no as an answer or not
paying attention in classroom.
Those are things that theteacher deals with inside the
classroom and And then what youhave is a list of possible
interventions.
Here's what you can do.
Here's here's a list of things,And then these are all things
that as a teacher, here's someopportunities.
(14:02):
I remember when we firstintroduced this at that school,
when we created the firstdiscipline matrix, we did that.
And then, and then you have itdown here too.
You have unacceptable teacherinterventions, but your list is
like this small.
It's just a little bitty thing.
When, when I did it, I had tocreate this big list that said
you cannot do these because thatwas what was happening.
(14:23):
Some of this stuff was happeningin school.
But I remember I walked down thehallway and I met a teacher that
I knew was not happy with thenew discipline matrix.
And I, I kind of turned sidewaysso I didn't confront her
straight on.
And I said, how are you doing?
And she said, I'm not doinggood.
I'm not, I'm not happy with thisnew matrix thing.
(14:44):
And I said, well, what do youmean?
She said, you took our entirearsenal away from us.
Our entire arsenal.
So her view was that it was warinside the classroom.
She had to have an army ofMissiles and rockets and
everything else to send out akid And so that was one of those
(15:05):
interventions where I went inthe classroom said here then let
me come in and help Give yousome guidance on those type of
things.
How can you address those thingsin the classroom?
You know, that teacher now is aschool administrator down in
Texas, so she, developed theskill sets that she needed.
once she understood the code.
And then I understood how thematrix really could benefit her
(15:26):
classroom.
She, was a really good teacherand, she turned into a, positive
administrator.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (15:32):
Well, you mentioned three things and
make sure you mentioned a code.
And I think code is veryimportant.
But let's make sure if you'regoing to implement the the
disciplinary matrix, one, yougot to make sure you deal with
some degree of fidelity, And yougot to buy into it.
If you don't buy into it, thenit's not going to be effective
for you.
That's the first thing.
Second thing, you want to makesure you're consistent.
in your enforcement of theprogram.
(15:53):
Follow the steps that's there.
That's why we have the five stepplan so we make sure every
teacher knows, hey, what stepare you on?
Administrators say, what stepare you utilizing right now so
we can assist you in thatregard?
We want to make sure.
Then of course, the last thingis making sure we do follow
through.
We want to understand, andhere's an administrator, if a
teacher is going to follow thefive steps and if they do the
(16:14):
five steps with fidelity andconsistency, then you have to
support that teacher.
And you got to say, I know thatyou've done this.
You worked it with this, youcalled in the parent, you called
in the counselor, you foundtrying to find different avenues
and students still doing thethings that they're doing, then
we got to deal with that studentin that way.
We got to make sure weunderstand that.
if that is done.
(16:34):
Then we can make sure we supportthe teacher as well.
We don't want the teacher tofeel that we're not being
supported.
But at the same time, what wefound out in the process of
putting in those five steps, wefound a lot of things that was
going on with that student that
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (16:47):
Right?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (16:48):
that student learning.
You mentioned earlier about thestudent with a home situation
that may be a little bitdifficult.
I know I found out one where astudent was a great student, an
honor student had an issue thatgot into a problem.
We found out his mom and dadwould be divorcing and while
that sounds like that's commonin America, in his world.
That was something so entirely,and this is a high school, so
(17:11):
entirely uncommon to him becausethey were married for so many
years that he
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (17:14):
Yeah.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (17:14):
a hard time with it.
And he was responding in a waythat may not have been as
positive as it was previously.
So we, we have these things wedeal with.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (17:22):
I think, fidelity, consistency,
and follow through are essentialthat you have to implement the
plan.
Teachers, I think, are morefrustrated with school
administrators around disciplinethan anything else.
They, feel like a schooladministrator is either good or
bad based on how they supportthat teacher inside the
(17:42):
classroom.
if something like this doesn'texist already, it's a hard thing
for the teachers to adjust tothe classroom, but it's also
really hard for some schooladministrators.
they have to now be consistent.
So, when we look at the plangoing with that, when a kid's
office level 1 you have it onThe Discipline Matrix is office
(18:04):
level 1A, these are things thatare.
inappropriate behaviors, but thereasons why a teacher should
send them to the office.
And then you have possibleoffice consequences.
So when they come to the office,that that school administrator
only has that list of stuff thatthey can do, And they have to
hold that kid accountable tothat list.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_ (18:24):
Absolutely.
When you talk about disciplineand you talk about the actions
students are taking.
The reason we put those steps inis that we want to make sure
teachers understand that we aresupporting them.
We are following, steps that'sthere.
And that's why it's so importantthat we have those progressive
steps.
And we talk about progressivediscipline, cause we don't want
them to feel that we're notdoing anything at all.
(18:45):
We are doing some things, but atthe same time.
We want to make sure the firstand foremost, is that teacher in
that classroom, not us.
I think that's important whenyou talk about administration
and you're right about assistantprincipals and you're talking
about making sure when youdiscuss the central office, this
is what we're utilizing.
Every school district has itsdisciplinary rules and
(19:07):
regulations, every schooldistrict.
So what you want to do, and whatwe've done before, is
incorporate The DisciplineMatrix within that district's
policies.
So make sure we're following thedistrict policy A, but also
giving the power to the teachersso the teachers feel
comfortable.
What they're ask what we'reasking them to establish as far
as rules and regulations intheir classroom.
(19:28):
And you're absolutely right.
And it is built also upon thatteacher's individual personal
code and how you feeladministration should be
handled.
So we give them that as aguideline, use it as such, and
we're going to continue,hopefully getting that teacher
to be motivated enough to teachthose students the things they
need to know to becomesuccessful academically.
(19:51):
And we're supporting them as faras the best we can so they feel
comfortable in that climate inthat school.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (19:57):
I wanted to touch on before we
wrap up is about a tiered systemof support for teachers.
Teachers need additional supportinside the classroom.
And then there's some teachersthat really struggle with this
concept or school, evenadministrators that struggle a
little bit with that.
Would you, agree once you put amatrix in place?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:17):
Yes.
Do I agree?
Absolutely.
As a matter of fact when we talkabout the tiered model support,
I think that's important.
We discuss before we even talkabout evaluation and we get
tools both on the tiered supportmodel to help educators and
administrators, but also we gotan evaluation program.
That we've established that wecan utilize to assist in how you
(20:38):
want to help the teachers out.
And the first step was going tobe, it's called SR3.
And the first step was going tobe support.
So absolutely.
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (20:45):
Well, I got one more question for you
though.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:47):
Go
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (20:48):
Do the students ever see this thing?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (20:49):
Oh, we think so.
Absolutely.
You want to go through that inclass.
As a matter of fact, we askedteachers to go through it the
first week in school.
We say, here's the program.
Please take a look.
Cause this is school wide.
So we want to make sure thestudents are aware of what's
going on.
So they are understanding thefact that they do have
opportunities.
So when a student comes to seean administrator, eventually you
(21:11):
can say, well, Hey, they didnot, they don't know me.
They didn't give me a chance.
Well, we did.
We talked about this from thebeginning the whole idea is
transparency, everybody to be onthe same page.
As a matter of fact I think I, Ithink we spoke about the first
week.
talking about rules andregulation with, with class
meetings and this sort of thingwith students.
(21:32):
We tell the students, we believein The Discipline Matrix.
That's what we're doing.
But at the same time, we tellthem the same thing.
We tell teachers The DisciplineMatrix does not believe we're
not trying to say we're tryingto punish you.
It's not a punishment tool.
This is a developmental tool.
See how we can assist you andgetting you become better
students.
And we want you to become betteracademic leaders at the same
(21:53):
time.
But the teacher, we want you tobecome better academic leaders.
We are working together so thatwe can achieve success with kids
in the classroom, but also outof the classroom as well.
And lower our
mark_4_09-02-2024_ (22:03):
disciplinary numbers Yeah,
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:04):
as a
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (22:05):
I see even on your matrix, you have
like minimum consequences.
You could go, Oh, dang kid.
I'm sorry, man.
This is your third gangviolation.
You know, it's going to be inschool or out of school
suspension no matter what, butlet's talk more in depth about
this, but you, you know what theconsequence is because you've
seen this list before, right?
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:26):
Oh, absolutely.
And you're absolutely right.
And when you talk about studentsthat's where it comes to teacher
empowerment.
You know, when I talk toteachers, you know, teachers
give students a whole lot of
mark_4_09-02-2024_1 (22:37):
opportunity yeah.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (22:38):
do the right thing.
So they may have done their ownsteps before they go into the
official five step plan.
They may have talked about howthey work with the student.
They even work with this studentall year And so it's up to them
how they want to incorporatethose five steps, how they want
to utilize that.
But we're saying we have a toolthat when you come to
administration, we're going toask you, what have you done?
(22:59):
Where are you at on this thing?
Have you incorporated thecounselor?
Have you incorporated the socialworker or the special ed?
And you talk about special ed,you talk about the special ed
case manager.
What have you done to it?
Get someone else involved andhave you contacted the parent?
Remember, this is a team thing.
This is not just a me thing.
This is a we thing.
when we're talking about thisbeing a we thing.
(23:21):
That's talking about all of usworking alongside and make sure
we help benefit that studentbest as possible to keep them
academically
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (23:28):
right.
So Bryan, where can people findthis matrix if they want to want
to.
Get one.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (23:33):
Well, as always, we'll have our email
addresses down below this thisconversation And you can always
contact us in any way that we'llbe glad to assist you in this
endeavor.
So Mark, I think, Hey,
mark_4_09-02-2024_110735 (23:43):
You're welcome.
Thank you.
You're, you're helping kids,man.
You're helping kids.
bryan_4_09-02-2024_110804 (23:47):
we are helping kids.
And thanks again, Mark, forsaying that.
have a good day.
And we'll talk to you again oneducational relevance.
Thank you, everybody.
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