In this episode, Holly Owens explores the intersection of Learning and Development (L&D) with the engaging experiences offered by Disney and Taylor Swift. She emphasizes the importance of creating loyal learners by designing immersive and emotionally connected learning experiences. By drawing parallels between the fandoms of Disney and Taylor Swift, Holly discusses how storytelling, community building, and authenticity can enhance learner engagement and retention. The episode encourages instructional designers to think creatively about their courses, making them more than just checklist items, and to foster a sense of belonging among learners.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
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(00:43):
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Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
our resources, and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another magical episode of Add Up L&D.
(01:06):
My name is Holly Owens and I'm your host, and today we're going
to do something a little bit unconventional.
We're going to take a walk down Main Street USA, hop on the
People Mover, and then head on over to the error story.
Yep, you heard that right. We are going to look at learning
(01:26):
and development through the lensof Disney World and Taylor
Swift, two of my favorite things.
So this episode might be more for me than anybody else, but
every time I'm in Disney World or when I'm thinking about all
the things that Taylor Swift is doing, I think about how all
this relates to learning and development.
You know, when I'm sitting on the ride about the experience
(01:48):
and you know how that intrigues people to continue to come back
and back each time for that rideor continue to purchase and
follow Taylor Swift and all of her countdowns and all those
different things. So one of the reasons I want to
do this is because L&D, we definitely want our learners to
(02:09):
be quote UN quote loyal fans. And if we can get, we can learn
from the best fandom builders inthe world, Disney World, you
know, anything Disney, Taylor Swift, we can create something
even better than learners. We can create loyal learners.
So let me paint a picture for you.
I recently just got back from Disney World.
(02:30):
I've, you know, I went originally when I was five years
old and my grandparents in 1988.And then I started going to
Disney World more regularly again in adulthood.
So at Disney World there's a lotof different experiences.
There's four different parks. I know Disneyland exists that
has a lot of different things aswell, but my main experiences
(02:51):
are with Disney World. So when you think about it at
Disney, people wait hours and I mean hours and they are putting
themselves in queues and they'reputting themselves, you know,
getting pass holder previews into to new rides just to be on
a ride that is potentially that's new and maybe last four
(03:14):
minutes or less or a ride they've already been on like 5
times. They're still going to stand in
the line no matter what because for some reason, Disney has
psychologically gotten into our minds.
And when we ride that ride, it'slike, OK, you know what?
I want to continue to have this experience.
I want to continue to go back and ride, you know, Tron or I
(03:36):
want to ride Cosmic Rewind, Guardians of the Galaxy, by the
way, that's my favorite ride. And then I also think about
another one of my favorite things, Taylor Swift.
I went to the air store about a year and a half ago.
People will pay thousands of dollars.
They'll trade friendship bracelets with strangers and
scream and sing every song out loud.
(03:57):
And the Airs tour was something like people were just putting,
like, trying to find tickets, like it was something that
people really, really wanted. And Taylor Swift has built this
loyal fan base of listeners, theSwifties, as you know, I'm like,
I'm in all of how she's built that community.
And Disney has done the same, pretty much the same thing.
(04:18):
So I wanted to jump on here and do a solo episode about that
because it's two things that I love.
But as you know, I'm really passionate about L&D and
thinking about like, how do we take these experiences that
these mainstream things do Taylor Swift, Disney World,
insert whatever, you know, television program here,
(04:41):
experience here, like make them feel like they're going to miss
out. Fear of missing out.
FOMO is a big thing. So when you think about it, the
question I want you to ask yourself throughout this
episode, how many learners in your organizations, are they
excited to take your E learnings?
Are they excited to take your trainings?
(05:01):
Yeah, I thought so. So one of the things is that the
magic that is created by these mainstream things that people
feel like they have to have is it's not impossible to recreate.
We really just have to shift ourperspective and start designing
experiences. And I always say this, it's an
(05:23):
experience, an Ed tech tool. It's an experience.
It's not just the training, it'snot just the pretty pictures on
the screen. It's not just the simulations,
you want it to be then experience for the learner so
that they feel connected to it. I feel very connected, although
I am not like, you know, I don'tknow personally, I feel very
connected to her and she's done a great thing in developing
(05:46):
communities and things like that.
And then Disney, I feel super connected to the community of
people who go to Disney World often or who ride certain rides
or who like certain parks. I feel a huge sense of
connection to those communities.So let's go ahead and start off
the episode talking a little bitabout Disney World.
So when you think about it, Disney World open 1971, they
(06:10):
celebrated 50 years back in October of 202150 years.
That's 50 years of trying to change things, do different
things. And that's a that's a really
long time. Disney doesn't just give you the
ticket. They really, if you think about
it, if you know Disney pretty well, when you go through the
(06:30):
Disney World sign, it's called being in the Disney cone.
It's like you're in, you're dropped into another world from
the moment that you get through the into the Disney country, you
walk into the park, you're in the Disney story, whether that's
Animal Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, Hollywood Studios, or Epcot,
you're, you're in the story. We know if you've ever been to
(06:53):
Disney, you know the different parks and I can tell you that
each of them tells a story that each of them has different areas
that you can go to. Like Epcot, it's arranged like
it's the world. You know, you're you're
traveling around the world, you're going to different
countries, you're experiencing the food in different countries,
you're going on different rides that have different experiences.
(07:14):
You know, like in Norway, there's Frozen.
Makes sense. So just thinking about how you
stepped in to that world and what it makes you feel like.
And Disney does happen a lot to the senses, so there'd be
different smells on the ride. I know that's probably not
possible for us to emulate that in something an e-learning
(07:36):
design or in one of our trainings at this point.
But really an L&D immersion means designing courses that
feel like a journey. They're not just a checklist
item. Like, you know, the other day my
fiance was sitting down. He was, I could tell he was on
an e-learning because I would hear a video and then I would
hear him click a couple times and then I would hear another
(07:57):
video or some audio or then he was taking a quiz.
And I was like, is that your e-learning training and what is
that on? And I was, I was inquisitive
about all the different things that he was doing.
It was a checklist item. It is really something that is
not important to him. He said it was boring.
He don't want to do it. It took a, you know, 45 minutes
to an hour of his time. And really what we need to do is
(08:20):
shift that focus, give learners a role, give them a story.
So again, when you're thinking about Disney World, they're they
have this consistency of magic and Disney World is the most
magical place on Earth and Disneyland is the happiest place
on Earth. And that's the overall theme of
things at the different parks. Every cast member, every
(08:42):
signpost, even the trash cans have personalities.
People call them tables. They're all part of the
experience. Like they have thought so deeply
about things. They have hidden Mickeys,
they've gamified, they've gamified the experience and
people wrote books about findingthe hidden, hidden Mickeys.
They've wrote, they've done YouTube videos about like the
(09:03):
Underground, about Disney Run and all the, the different
things, you know, talking about the tunnels under Magic Kingdom
or you know, like they just makeit.
It's mysterious and it's like there's always something new to
find out. So when we relate that back to
us as instructional designers orlearning development
professionals, we want to remember as we're designing,
(09:25):
every touch point counts. Every single touch point counts.
It's part of the experience. So that means from the
onboarding e-mail to the way theLMS looks or whatever system
you're using to login, even the reminders, it should all feel
intentional and it should alwaysmake the learners feel like
they're a part of the experienceand they're in control of the
(09:46):
experience. Like we're providing the
platform and the information, but they are in control of what
they are doing. And you know, I think back a
little bit about this. I'm an 80s baby.
And when Mario came out, Super Mario Brothers and playing that
game and then these things called cheat codes start coming
out and made you feel like you were doing something cool that
(10:10):
was secretive. And then you see something
happen on the screen that you know, you can jump worlds or
jump off different levels and you know, do different things
like playing those games. It was like, it was like they
started writing books about the cheat codes and what to do and
the different buttons. Like it felt like beyond just
like seeing, you know, standing outside Magic Kingdom from the
(10:31):
inside, there's these different types of experiences you can see
on the inside. So like I said, Disney sprinkles
surprises and you could say it'sDisney Easter eggs like Taylor
Swift, little details you only notice if you're looking.
So if you haven't heard of him, Mickey's before and you're not a
Disney person. If you ever get the chance to go
to the park, there are tons of hidden Mickeys there.
(10:51):
Mickey Mouse is put into areas you normally wouldn't think they
will be put in. Like for example, there's some
in pictures or some on differentrides.
And like I said, there's a wholebook about that.
So imagine if you're learning indevelopment and you hide these
Easter eggs in your training andtips, gamified moments,
(11:12):
unexpected recognitions, things that make the learner smile and
think, oh, that's clever. And then they're paying
attention. Something's happening in the
brain, right? Like it's connecting to the
content, it's really connecting them and they're like really
thinking about it. And then they want more.
They want to continue the progress, make them want more.
(11:33):
But not only are they learning, they're also experiencing
something that is making them connect emotionally with content
that they need. They need to learn content and
experience a simulation or something that they need to
learn. One of the things that Disney
thrives on is people coming backagain and again.
(11:53):
I mean, when I went back to Disney after it was a long time
and 2015 and I experienced it again for the first time as an
adult, it was different and I wanted to keep coming back for
more because I feel like even though I've been to Disney a
lot, I still haven't experiencedeverything.
(12:13):
There's still more things to unlock.
Obviously, there's the big things that people want to do.
Magic Kingdom is the park that people want to go in that has
all the princesses and like the big castle and Main Street USA,
which I mentioned at the beginning of the episode.
But if we think about this in terms of L&D, this means
designing for continuous learning.
And that's really what we want to do.
(12:35):
We're not just going to launch acourse and we're just going to
leave it and let people. That's it.
We want to create a pathway thatmakes people want to return
because you know, like learning doesn't stop beyond even when
you've completed the course, there's going to be another
course, you're going to have to take another time.
There's going to be another training that you have to take.
(12:57):
There's going to be something where you have to learn
something new at a certain pointand you're going to want to
return to those previous lessons.
Sometimes I call this going backto the basics and you're going
to build upon, and we say this in K through 12.
This is scaffolding. So when we're looking at Disney
and thinking about how we can make LND experiences more
(13:18):
meaningful and make it a true experience and not just a
checklist, you definitely need to have immersion, consistency
of what's happening throughout the e-learning.
If there's a character, if thereis a, you know, persona that
you're putting throughout that makes people pay attention.
(13:39):
Some of the best E learnings that I've taken, they tell a
story and through the story, either that's your persona or
you know, they immerse their story with your story and this
activates prior knowledge and makes you connect to things.
Very constructivist when you think about the Easter eggs too,
and putting in surprises for learners.
(13:59):
I know we had like a, when I worked at Amazon, we have like a
surprise sound. It was, it was fun.
It like, you know, emulated something that was out on the
floor for the pharmacist. So embedding those Easter eggs
again or like the hidden Mickeysand then you want them coming
back for more. You really, do you really want
lawyer learners and you want people to enjoy the experience.
(14:23):
I don't think any of us as an instructional designer sit down
and say, I'm going to spend 200 hours on designing this 5 minute
e-learning experience and I'm just going to get the very big,
very basic done and just let it go.
I want people to feel like they walked away with something.
I want people to feel like they were helped in some way.
(14:44):
They have some sort of take away.
They had that experience. They're able to do something
better after they took the e-learning.
It's not just something that's achecklist item and people that
are using as a checklist item. We, we're about, we're beyond
that in 2025. I mean, what what you're doing
when you use something as a checklist item is you're just
(15:05):
getting it done and you're wasting money and you're wasting
other people's time. You're wasting the developers
time, you're wasting the designers time, you're wasting
the learners time. You're spending unnecessary
money if you're not aligning allthese different things and truly
making it an experience for the learner.
So Disney World is a great example and I can tell you that
(15:27):
one of the the rides I remember the most, or two rides I
remember the most through these experiences and some of these
smells and sounds, one is Sauron.
He flies through different countries and different places
and they they have smells and they have sounds.
You remember that because you'resmelling it and you're seeing it
and you're hearing at the same time.
And then another big one too is Pirates of the Caribbean.
(15:49):
That water smells awful, but youremember it.
You remember it because it's part of the experience.
You know, it's part of mainstream culture, pop culture,
you know, Jack Sparrow and the Pirates of Caribbean.
But they bring the full thing together.
And that's what we need to do ase-learning developers or
learning development professionals, instructional
(16:10):
designers. Disney really is about the
experience. And you know, even though I've
been numerous Times Now, I stillwant to go back.
I still want to go back. I want to, you know, Disney's
always changing things and I want to I want to experience
those things and see how fun they are and what what they can
come with next. The imagineer.
So when you're next time you're thinking about designing an
(16:32):
e-learning experience, I want you to keep Disney in the back
of your mind. All right, now let's shift over
to Taylor Swift. Let's let's talk about let's
talk about Tay Tay, as they put it.
You know, she's coming out with a new album.
She just got engaged to Travis Kelsey.
She's like, she's everywhere. Like she's really quiet for a
(16:53):
certain amount of time. And you kind of get the get the
inkling that she's working on something that she's going to
announce. And the fans are like they're,
they're saying that this might happen or it's going to be
reputation TV and TV. For those of you who aren't
Swifties means Taylor's version recently she got back access to
all her original, so she owns all of her music, her
discography. I'm just thinking about like how
(17:16):
obsessed people are with in a good way, Taylor Swift and the
Easter eggs that she plants throughout her different types
of announcements or prior to theannouncements.
And she did say recently on the New Heights podcast that she
doesn't plant Easter eggs about her personal life.
It all has to do with the music.So we're all thinking about
(17:39):
maybe that, you know, why is that clock always point the
midnight? Or why is the 13th floor a
certain color jewel or why in the the antihero video, she's
dressed in like orange stuff because her new album is orange.
Or, you know, we're always trying to figure out the puzzle
(17:59):
because she does such a great job of planting these Easter
eggs to make us intrigued that we we keep coming back for more
week. Maybe we keep seeing things that
don't necessarily exist. So Taylor Swift has a vast
amount of people following her, good and bad people saying good
things and bad things. I've been a Swifty for a while
(18:20):
now. I went to the air store.
It was unbelievable. So if you're a Swifty, welcome
to the podcast where I'm exposing myself being I'm a huge
Swifty and I'm 41 years old. I love Taylor Swift.
I think she is one of the most authentic people out there.
But she does a great job of, youknow, thinking about her fans,
thinking about who's who's following her.
(18:43):
And her influence spans across generations.
There's younger people, there's older people and really everyone
feels welcome in that community.So one of the things that she
does really, really well and that we should be doing an L&D
is storytelling and providing authenticity.
Every era that Taylor talks about or music that she puts out
(19:08):
is different. Folklore doesn't sound like
reputation, but it's still Taylor.
It's a piece of her, you know, she through storytelling, she's
she's having us experience thesedifferent things that people are
going through. Maybe herself, she's going
through somebody close to her that's going something that
they're going through. But she's telling it through
(19:30):
music and telling it through a story.
Wendy can do this, we can do this.
We can shift styles when we needto, but always staying true to
the why learners. And this is done to research
that when they feel connected, it's because the experience is
(19:52):
authentic. It's not because when I'm
talking to this podcast, I'm I'mjust talking, I'm just saying
what I think. And it's it's truly authentic
about what I think. I'm sharing my experiences and I
encourage all of you to think about your experiences and some
of the things that you love thatdo this, you know, Taylor Swift
and Disney World might not be your go to is like they are
(20:14):
mine. So.
Really, when you're making something that's authentic and
not feeling it again, like a checklist item learner sense
that. So it has to be something that's
really authentic. And I'm not saying every
learning experience is going to be like this top notch, like
Taylor Swift album, Disneyland ride, but you can build up to
this. You can make it so that the
(20:36):
experience is maybe it's a little bit, you know, bleak at
1st and then it, it builds into these other things.
But really learner sense the authenticity.
So you need to do that storytelling.
Authenticity #1 The second part is the community creation.
And I'm going to say Taylor Swift is probably the best of
(20:58):
doing this because I have never seen another person, celebrity
or otherwise, that has created acommunity that they're not just
the fans, they're part of a movement.
There's the friendship bracelets, there's the Easter
eggs hashtag. It's she's created her own
culture, her own Swifty culture.And Can you imagine what
(21:21):
learners would feel like if theywere a part of a community
through your course? Like discussion boards that
don't feel like home marker checklist items, They're
actually conversations, authentic conversations.
You're truly connecting with people.
Some of the best experiences that I've ever had in learning
(21:42):
are because I'm connecting with other people.
Projects that target this, building those connections,
shared rituals are things that make training memorable.
Like, what is that? How do you make learners who are
in all different places across the world feel like they're part
(22:04):
of something with each other when they're not seeing each
other in person? How do you do that?
How does Taylor Swift, when she announces an album, how does she
within, you know, like so many hours, breaks a record for the
most podcast downloads of the New Heights podcast so quickly?
(22:24):
How does that happen? It's not just something that's
happening in a vacuum, it's something that's been building
up to something that's been planned out.
So thinking about how you make those communities where people,
even when Taylor is going on a sports podcast and I'm a huge
(22:44):
sports person and she's she's just like she's learned the
sport of football. How does that podcast get that
much attention? And it's not directly related to
Taylor Swift. It's related to her fiance, Yes.
But how do they get that much attention?
Like how do they get that many downloads?
(23:05):
How does people feel so connected?
You know, if there were different ways, just imagine
like being a part like those twocommunities coming together and
meshing. What are girls thinking about
going to football games? Like that's not something that I
would say that people normally say, like I'm going to take my
daughter unless she's like this,this huge athlete Bringing
Taylor into a Kansas City Chiefsgame.
(23:27):
Heard some of the news is like like 1.6 billion revenue for the
Kansas City Chiefs and Taylor Swift is literally sitting in a
suite at the game and she's not doing anything but being
herself. She's being out in the
community. She's built a community.
So like I can't say enough like building a community that's
(23:48):
authentic is going to continue to make people want to be loyal
and be a part of the learning experience and really taking
what they need to know and then connecting that you know inside
the materials. I know I'm asking a lot.
I'm asking a lot. I'm definitely asking a lot
through this episode and when I'm talking about all these
different experiences of things that Taylor's doing, of things
(24:11):
that Disney World is doing. But I want you to be able to
really think outside the box of what you are doing now.
Whether that's measurable learning objectives, whether
that's aligning assessments and doing the same assessments,
quizzes, things over and over again, or the way you've always
done it. It's got to be done different.
(24:31):
Now there's things like AI adultlearners don't want to be bored.
They want immediate takeaways that they can, you know, put
into practice as soon as they leave your E learnings.
Another thing that Taylor does beyond the storytelling and the
authenticity and the community creation, the personalization
and connection. I don't know Taylor Swift and
(24:54):
some of you who are Swift, the listeners right now.
I mean, if you know Taylor Swift, congratulations.
But she writes songs and does things that make them feel like
they're just for you. Like you're just sitting in a
room with her by yourself and you're hearing her play a
certain song, you know, like it.It's something that's strictly
personalized just for you. Like listening to some of her
(25:16):
songs at different periods in mylife, I connected with them more
than I did at other certain periods of my life.
And and the albums definitely emulate different experiences.
So you can do this in LND too. So you really want to make, when
you're thinking about L&D, you want to make the learning
relevant to the roles, the goals, and the real, real life
(25:38):
problems. Learners need to feel like they
are seen. Like we truly need to empathize
and understand what our learnersare going through.
We're all learners too. We're not just the instructional
designers. We've been in training
experiences. So we really need to understand
what they are going through, what they are experiencing in
their roles, what they are maybeexperiencing outside of their
(26:01):
roles. Because there's a whole bunch of
different areas, you know, there's health stuff, there's
exercise stuff, there's, there'sa whole bunch of different ones
I can list. So then there's a
personalization and connection. The fan loyalty for Taylor Swift
equals trust. They stick with her because
through all of her reinventions and before Taylor Swift, there
(26:23):
was Madonna. So for using the honeys,
remember Donna Madonna, she remits herself quite a bit.
And Taylor Swift definitely does.
This is something that through these reinventions, she she just
like she's still the same personat her core, but she's just
going through a different phase in her life.
And she always delivers. She always delivers.
Can you imagine what that would be like if learners actually
(26:46):
trusted us and there wasn't thisanimosity between, oh, I have to
take another a learning. I have to sit there another hour
training just because the boss says I have to do it?
It's not something I really needto know.
What if we could shift that mindset through our learning
experiences? The training could be valuable,
(27:08):
engaging, and actually worth their time.
Actually worth their time. I'll repeat that.
What a difference that would make in our world.
I feel like trainings, learnings, education, you know,
name all the things that we've learned through really get a bad
(27:28):
reputation, no pun intended. You know, when it comes to what
we have to do in the workspace or what we have to do to to
grow. If you think every time you sit
down to design something, whether that's an infographic or
that's a step by step, how guidehow to do something and you can
(27:50):
earn the trust of your learners and make it valuable, engaging
and worth their time. Imagine how good it would feel
to have that sort of stuff. And people have done this, you
know, making sure that people feel connected.
As you all know, I've worked at I worked at Yellow Dig recently
(28:12):
as a director of growth marketing and I'm a huge
advocate of Yellow Dig because of the way it is set up to
connect people and the authenticity around that.
And as an instructor find that totally valuable.
And seeing the way that my students have connected through
there and got to know each other, it changed their
perspective on the course. They felt less intimidated by
(28:35):
the things or like they didn't feel like some of the things
they were doing were checklist. They were asking questions.
They were inquisitive about certain areas of learning to
develop more instructional design.
It just feels like they trusted each other and they trusted me.
Like we built a community throughout the 1416 week
semester. All right, I can go on and on
(28:57):
about this. So I'm going to wrap up the
episode. So the things that Disney and
Taylor Swift have both mastered as the experience.
It's immersive and it's emotional.
It's connected to the psyche. They have consistency.
Every detail aligns like one thing is related to the other
and the other thing is related to the other, and it's all
connected. In this vast world of different
(29:20):
things. Community.
People belong to something bigger than themselves.
Swifties are a huge community. Disney Adults are a huge
community. As much a bad rap as they get, I
feel like Disney Adults are so much fun, surprise, and delight.
Gamification, those little moments that people experience,
joy that keeps people hooked. It's not the negative stuff.
(29:42):
It's not like the if something negative happens in an
experience, why would we want togo back to that?
We don't, we don't. That's not good for our minds.
So the surprise and delight, nowtell me that these things
experience consistency, community in the surprise and
delight. That doesn't sound like the Holy
Grail of learning and development.
(30:06):
What you can do to change your learner's experiences.
You know what that does for you too.
It changes your whole experienceas an instructional designer
because you feel more connected to your learners.
Like we talked a lot about trust, here are three things you
can do today to make your learners more like Swifty's and
(30:28):
through the Disney World experience, all of your learning
#1 all of your learning like a Disney ride.
Where's the magic? Where's the long wait line?
Fix that friction. What is happening in the
experience that is just not working?
What do you need to do to kind of shift that?
(30:49):
Number 2, ask yourselves, would learners buy the merch from your
course? In other words, would they
proudly share a LinkedIn or telltheir peers about it?
When people love something, theyshare it.
They want to tell other people there's word of mouth.
That's a great that's that's like the best marketing ever is
(31:10):
when it spreads through word of mouth.
So are they going to buy into your course?
Are they going to share it on different sites?
Are they going to share with their friends?
And the number three add on Taylor Swift move in your
experience? Maybe it's storytelling.
That's something I really love to do.
(31:30):
Maybe it's an Easter egg, Maybe it's just making your content
more human. We are humans, in fact, did you
know that? So at the end of the day,
learners don't want to feel likethey're passive attendees.
They want to feel like fans, andfans come back for more.
(31:52):
So your challenge for you, something I'm given for you to
do the next time you design something, the next time you're
thinking about designer curriculum or program, it's
fine. You're Hidden Mickey or your
Taylor Easter egg. Something small.
These things are small. They're not huge.
Then makes your learners feel like they're part of something
(32:12):
bigger, something special. Because we're not just training
employees, we're building loyal learners.
And that's where the magic really happens.
Thank you. See you next time.
Thanks for spending a few minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is packed.
(32:34):
If today's episode sparked an idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, followor subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episodeof Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,too.
Want to keep the conversation going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn and share your biggest take
(32:56):
away. She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story. Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
(33:17):
LMS.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
LMS. Ispring Suite is an intuitive,
all in one authoring tool for creating engaging e-learning
(00:23):
content, and ispringlearn is an innovative online training
platform for onboarding, upskilling, and certifying your
teams. We also provide tons of free
resources for aspiring and experienced e-learning
professionals, conduct weekly webinars with top industry
experts, and organize annual e-learning conferences,
(00:43):
challenges, and championships. We'd be happy to get to know you
and pick a solution that fits your needs best.
Go to www.icepringsolutions.com to learn more about us, download
our resources, and connect. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to another magical episode of Add Up L&D.
(01:06):
My name is Holly Owens and I'm your host, and today we're going
to do something a little bit unconventional.
We're going to take a walk down Main Street USA, hop on the
People Mover, and then head on over to the error story.
Yep, you heard that right. We are going to look at learning
(01:26):
and development through the lensof Disney World and Taylor
Swift, two of my favorite things.
So this episode might be more for me than anybody else, but
every time I'm in Disney World or when I'm thinking about all
the things that Taylor Swift is doing, I think about how all
this relates to learning and development.
You know, when I'm sitting on the ride about the experience
(01:48):
and you know how that intrigues people to continue to come back
and back each time for that rideor continue to purchase and
follow Taylor Swift and all of her countdowns and all those
different things. So one of the reasons I want to
do this is because L&D, we definitely want our learners to
(02:09):
be quote UN quote loyal fans. And if we can get, we can learn
from the best fandom builders inthe world, Disney World, you
know, anything Disney, Taylor Swift, we can create something
even better than learners. We can create loyal learners.
So let me paint a picture for you.
I recently just got back from Disney World.
(02:30):
I've, you know, I went originally when I was five years
old and my grandparents in 1988.And then I started going to
Disney World more regularly again in adulthood.
So at Disney World there's a lotof different experiences.
There's four different parks. I know Disneyland exists that
has a lot of different things aswell, but my main experiences
(02:51):
are with Disney World. So when you think about it at
Disney, people wait hours and I mean hours and they are putting
themselves in queues and they'reputting themselves, you know,
getting pass holder previews into to new rides just to be on
a ride that is potentially that's new and maybe last four
(03:14):
minutes or less or a ride they've already been on like 5
times. They're still going to stand in
the line no matter what because for some reason, Disney has
psychologically gotten into our minds.
And when we ride that ride, it'slike, OK, you know what?
I want to continue to have this experience.
I want to continue to go back and ride, you know, Tron or I
(03:36):
want to ride Cosmic Rewind, Guardians of the Galaxy, by the
way, that's my favorite ride. And then I also think about
another one of my favorite things, Taylor Swift.
I went to the air store about a year and a half ago.
People will pay thousands of dollars.
They'll trade friendship bracelets with strangers and
scream and sing every song out loud.
(03:57):
And the Airs tour was something like people were just putting,
like, trying to find tickets, like it was something that
people really, really wanted. And Taylor Swift has built this
loyal fan base of listeners, theSwifties, as you know, I'm like,
I'm in all of how she's built that community.
And Disney has done the same, pretty much the same thing.
(04:18):
So I wanted to jump on here and do a solo episode about that
because it's two things that I love.
But as you know, I'm really passionate about L&D and
thinking about like, how do we take these experiences that
these mainstream things do Taylor Swift, Disney World,
insert whatever, you know, television program here,
(04:41):
experience here, like make them feel like they're going to miss
out. Fear of missing out.
FOMO is a big thing. So when you think about it, the
question I want you to ask yourself throughout this
episode, how many learners in your organizations, are they
excited to take your E learnings?
Are they excited to take your trainings?
(05:01):
Yeah, I thought so. So one of the things is that the
magic that is created by these mainstream things that people
feel like they have to have is it's not impossible to recreate.
We really just have to shift ourperspective and start designing
experiences. And I always say this, it's an
(05:23):
experience, an Ed tech tool. It's an experience.
It's not just the training, it'snot just the pretty pictures on
the screen. It's not just the simulations,
you want it to be then experience for the learner so
that they feel connected to it. I feel very connected, although
I am not like, you know, I don'tknow personally, I feel very
connected to her and she's done a great thing in developing
(05:46):
communities and things like that.
And then Disney, I feel super connected to the community of
people who go to Disney World often or who ride certain rides
or who like certain parks. I feel a huge sense of
connection to those communities.So let's go ahead and start off
the episode talking a little bitabout Disney World.
So when you think about it, Disney World open 1971, they
(06:10):
celebrated 50 years back in October of 202150 years.
That's 50 years of trying to change things, do different
things. And that's a that's a really
long time. Disney doesn't just give you the
ticket. They really, if you think about
it, if you know Disney pretty well, when you go through the
(06:30):
Disney World sign, it's called being in the Disney cone.
It's like you're in, you're dropped into another world from
the moment that you get through the into the Disney country, you
walk into the park, you're in the Disney story, whether that's
Animal Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, Hollywood Studios, or Epcot,
you're, you're in the story. We know if you've ever been to
(06:53):
Disney, you know the different parks and I can tell you that
each of them tells a story that each of them has different areas
that you can go to. Like Epcot, it's arranged like
it's the world. You know, you're you're
traveling around the world, you're going to different
countries, you're experiencing the food in different countries,
you're going on different rides that have different experiences.
(07:14):
You know, like in Norway, there's Frozen.
Makes sense. So just thinking about how you
stepped in to that world and what it makes you feel like.
And Disney does happen a lot to the senses, so there'd be
different smells on the ride. I know that's probably not
possible for us to emulate that in something an e-learning
(07:36):
design or in one of our trainings at this point.
But really an L&D immersion means designing courses that
feel like a journey. They're not just a checklist
item. Like, you know, the other day my
fiance was sitting down. He was, I could tell he was on
an e-learning because I would hear a video and then I would
hear him click a couple times and then I would hear another
(07:57):
video or some audio or then he was taking a quiz.
And I was like, is that your e-learning training and what is
that on? And I was, I was inquisitive
about all the different things that he was doing.
It was a checklist item. It is really something that is
not important to him. He said it was boring.
He don't want to do it. It took a, you know, 45 minutes
to an hour of his time. And really what we need to do is
(08:20):
shift that focus, give learners a role, give them a story.
So again, when you're thinking about Disney World, they're they
have this consistency of magic and Disney World is the most
magical place on Earth and Disneyland is the happiest place
on Earth. And that's the overall theme of
things at the different parks. Every cast member, every
(08:42):
signpost, even the trash cans have personalities.
People call them tables. They're all part of the
experience. Like they have thought so deeply
about things. They have hidden Mickeys,
they've gamified, they've gamified the experience and
people wrote books about findingthe hidden, hidden Mickeys.
They've wrote, they've done YouTube videos about like the
(09:03):
Underground, about Disney Run and all the, the different
things, you know, talking about the tunnels under Magic Kingdom
or you know, like they just makeit.
It's mysterious and it's like there's always something new to
find out. So when we relate that back to
us as instructional designers orlearning development
professionals, we want to remember as we're designing,
(09:25):
every touch point counts. Every single touch point counts.
It's part of the experience. So that means from the
onboarding e-mail to the way theLMS looks or whatever system
you're using to login, even the reminders, it should all feel
intentional and it should alwaysmake the learners feel like
they're a part of the experienceand they're in control of the
(09:46):
experience. Like we're providing the
platform and the information, but they are in control of what
they are doing. And you know, I think back a
little bit about this. I'm an 80s baby.
And when Mario came out, Super Mario Brothers and playing that
game and then these things called cheat codes start coming
out and made you feel like you were doing something cool that
(10:10):
was secretive. And then you see something
happen on the screen that you know, you can jump worlds or
jump off different levels and you know, do different things
like playing those games. It was like, it was like they
started writing books about the cheat codes and what to do and
the different buttons. Like it felt like beyond just
like seeing, you know, standing outside Magic Kingdom from the
(10:31):
inside, there's these different types of experiences you can see
on the inside. So like I said, Disney sprinkles
surprises and you could say it'sDisney Easter eggs like Taylor
Swift, little details you only notice if you're looking.
So if you haven't heard of him, Mickey's before and you're not a
Disney person. If you ever get the chance to go
to the park, there are tons of hidden Mickeys there.
(10:51):
Mickey Mouse is put into areas you normally wouldn't think they
will be put in. Like for example, there's some
in pictures or some on differentrides.
And like I said, there's a wholebook about that.
So imagine if you're learning indevelopment and you hide these
Easter eggs in your training andtips, gamified moments,
(11:12):
unexpected recognitions, things that make the learner smile and
think, oh, that's clever. And then they're paying
attention. Something's happening in the
brain, right? Like it's connecting to the
content, it's really connecting them and they're like really
thinking about it. And then they want more.
They want to continue the progress, make them want more.
(11:33):
But not only are they learning, they're also experiencing
something that is making them connect emotionally with content
that they need. They need to learn content and
experience a simulation or something that they need to
learn. One of the things that Disney
thrives on is people coming backagain and again.
(11:53):
I mean, when I went back to Disney after it was a long time
and 2015 and I experienced it again for the first time as an
adult, it was different and I wanted to keep coming back for
more because I feel like even though I've been to Disney a
lot, I still haven't experiencedeverything.
(12:13):
There's still more things to unlock.
Obviously, there's the big things that people want to do.
Magic Kingdom is the park that people want to go in that has
all the princesses and like the big castle and Main Street USA,
which I mentioned at the beginning of the episode.
But if we think about this in terms of L&D, this means
designing for continuous learning.
And that's really what we want to do.
(12:35):
We're not just going to launch acourse and we're just going to
leave it and let people. That's it.
We want to create a pathway thatmakes people want to return
because you know, like learning doesn't stop beyond even when
you've completed the course, there's going to be another
course, you're going to have to take another time.
There's going to be another training that you have to take.
(12:57):
There's going to be something where you have to learn
something new at a certain pointand you're going to want to
return to those previous lessons.
Sometimes I call this going backto the basics and you're going
to build upon, and we say this in K through 12.
This is scaffolding. So when we're looking at Disney
and thinking about how we can make LND experiences more
(13:18):
meaningful and make it a true experience and not just a
checklist, you definitely need to have immersion, consistency
of what's happening throughout the e-learning.
If there's a character, if thereis a, you know, persona that
you're putting throughout that makes people pay attention.
(13:39):
Some of the best E learnings that I've taken, they tell a
story and through the story, either that's your persona or
you know, they immerse their story with your story and this
activates prior knowledge and makes you connect to things.
Very constructivist when you think about the Easter eggs too,
and putting in surprises for learners.
(13:59):
I know we had like a, when I worked at Amazon, we have like a
surprise sound. It was, it was fun.
It like, you know, emulated something that was out on the
floor for the pharmacist. So embedding those Easter eggs
again or like the hidden Mickeysand then you want them coming
back for more. You really, do you really want
lawyer learners and you want people to enjoy the experience.
(14:23):
I don't think any of us as an instructional designer sit down
and say, I'm going to spend 200 hours on designing this 5 minute
e-learning experience and I'm just going to get the very big,
very basic done and just let it go.
I want people to feel like they walked away with something.
I want people to feel like they were helped in some way.
(14:44):
They have some sort of take away.
They had that experience. They're able to do something
better after they took the e-learning.
It's not just something that's achecklist item and people that
are using as a checklist item. We, we're about, we're beyond
that in 2025. I mean, what what you're doing
when you use something as a checklist item is you're just
(15:05):
getting it done and you're wasting money and you're wasting
other people's time. You're wasting the developers
time, you're wasting the designers time, you're wasting
the learners time. You're spending unnecessary
money if you're not aligning allthese different things and truly
making it an experience for the learner.
So Disney World is a great example and I can tell you that
(15:27):
one of the the rides I remember the most, or two rides I
remember the most through these experiences and some of these
smells and sounds, one is Sauron.
He flies through different countries and different places
and they they have smells and they have sounds.
You remember that because you'resmelling it and you're seeing it
and you're hearing at the same time.
And then another big one too is Pirates of the Caribbean.
(15:49):
That water smells awful, but youremember it.
You remember it because it's part of the experience.
You know, it's part of mainstream culture, pop culture,
you know, Jack Sparrow and the Pirates of Caribbean.
But they bring the full thing together.
And that's what we need to do ase-learning developers or
learning development professionals, instructional
(16:10):
designers. Disney really is about the
experience. And you know, even though I've
been numerous Times Now, I stillwant to go back.
I still want to go back. I want to, you know, Disney's
always changing things and I want to I want to experience
those things and see how fun they are and what what they can
come with next. The imagineer.
So when you're next time you're thinking about designing an
(16:32):
e-learning experience, I want you to keep Disney in the back
of your mind. All right, now let's shift over
to Taylor Swift. Let's let's talk about let's
talk about Tay Tay, as they put it.
You know, she's coming out with a new album.
She just got engaged to Travis Kelsey.
She's like, she's everywhere. Like she's really quiet for a
(16:53):
certain amount of time. And you kind of get the get the
inkling that she's working on something that she's going to
announce. And the fans are like they're,
they're saying that this might happen or it's going to be
reputation TV and TV. For those of you who aren't
Swifties means Taylor's version recently she got back access to
all her original, so she owns all of her music, her
discography. I'm just thinking about like how
(17:16):
obsessed people are with in a good way, Taylor Swift and the
Easter eggs that she plants throughout her different types
of announcements or prior to theannouncements.
And she did say recently on the New Heights podcast that she
doesn't plant Easter eggs about her personal life.
It all has to do with the music.So we're all thinking about
(17:39):
maybe that, you know, why is that clock always point the
midnight? Or why is the 13th floor a
certain color jewel or why in the the antihero video, she's
dressed in like orange stuff because her new album is orange.
Or, you know, we're always trying to figure out the puzzle
(17:59):
because she does such a great job of planting these Easter
eggs to make us intrigued that we we keep coming back for more
week. Maybe we keep seeing things that
don't necessarily exist. So Taylor Swift has a vast
amount of people following her, good and bad people saying good
things and bad things. I've been a Swifty for a while
(18:20):
now. I went to the air store.
It was unbelievable. So if you're a Swifty, welcome
to the podcast where I'm exposing myself being I'm a huge
Swifty and I'm 41 years old. I love Taylor Swift.
I think she is one of the most authentic people out there.
But she does a great job of, youknow, thinking about her fans,
thinking about who's who's following her.
(18:43):
And her influence spans across generations.
There's younger people, there's older people and really everyone
feels welcome in that community.So one of the things that she
does really, really well and that we should be doing an L&D
is storytelling and providing authenticity.
Every era that Taylor talks about or music that she puts out
(19:08):
is different. Folklore doesn't sound like
reputation, but it's still Taylor.
It's a piece of her, you know, she through storytelling, she's
she's having us experience thesedifferent things that people are
going through. Maybe herself, she's going
through somebody close to her that's going something that
they're going through. But she's telling it through
(19:30):
music and telling it through a story.
Wendy can do this, we can do this.
We can shift styles when we needto, but always staying true to
the why learners. And this is done to research
that when they feel connected, it's because the experience is
(19:52):
authentic. It's not because when I'm
talking to this podcast, I'm I'mjust talking, I'm just saying
what I think. And it's it's truly authentic
about what I think. I'm sharing my experiences and I
encourage all of you to think about your experiences and some
of the things that you love thatdo this, you know, Taylor Swift
and Disney World might not be your go to is like they are
(20:14):
mine. So.
Really, when you're making something that's authentic and
not feeling it again, like a checklist item learner sense
that. So it has to be something that's
really authentic. And I'm not saying every
learning experience is going to be like this top notch, like
Taylor Swift album, Disneyland ride, but you can build up to
this. You can make it so that the
(20:36):
experience is maybe it's a little bit, you know, bleak at
1st and then it, it builds into these other things.
But really learner sense the authenticity.
So you need to do that storytelling.
Authenticity #1 The second part is the community creation.
And I'm going to say Taylor Swift is probably the best of
(20:58):
doing this because I have never seen another person, celebrity
or otherwise, that has created acommunity that they're not just
the fans, they're part of a movement.
There's the friendship bracelets, there's the Easter
eggs hashtag. It's she's created her own
culture, her own Swifty culture.And Can you imagine what
(21:21):
learners would feel like if theywere a part of a community
through your course? Like discussion boards that
don't feel like home marker checklist items, They're
actually conversations, authentic conversations.
You're truly connecting with people.
Some of the best experiences that I've ever had in learning
(21:42):
are because I'm connecting with other people.
Projects that target this, building those connections,
shared rituals are things that make training memorable.
Like, what is that? How do you make learners who are
in all different places across the world feel like they're part
(22:04):
of something with each other when they're not seeing each
other in person? How do you do that?
How does Taylor Swift, when she announces an album, how does she
within, you know, like so many hours, breaks a record for the
most podcast downloads of the New Heights podcast so quickly?
(22:24):
How does that happen? It's not just something that's
happening in a vacuum, it's something that's been building
up to something that's been planned out.
So thinking about how you make those communities where people,
even when Taylor is going on a sports podcast and I'm a huge
(22:44):
sports person and she's she's just like she's learned the
sport of football. How does that podcast get that
much attention? And it's not directly related to
Taylor Swift. It's related to her fiance, Yes.
But how do they get that much attention?
Like how do they get that many downloads?
(23:05):
How does people feel so connected?
You know, if there were different ways, just imagine
like being a part like those twocommunities coming together and
meshing. What are girls thinking about
going to football games? Like that's not something that I
would say that people normally say, like I'm going to take my
daughter unless she's like this,this huge athlete Bringing
Taylor into a Kansas City Chiefsgame.
(23:27):
Heard some of the news is like like 1.6 billion revenue for the
Kansas City Chiefs and Taylor Swift is literally sitting in a
suite at the game and she's not doing anything but being
herself. She's being out in the
community. She's built a community.
So like I can't say enough like building a community that's
(23:48):
authentic is going to continue to make people want to be loyal
and be a part of the learning experience and really taking
what they need to know and then connecting that you know inside
the materials. I know I'm asking a lot.
I'm asking a lot. I'm definitely asking a lot
through this episode and when I'm talking about all these
different experiences of things that Taylor's doing, of things
(24:11):
that Disney World is doing. But I want you to be able to
really think outside the box of what you are doing now.
Whether that's measurable learning objectives, whether
that's aligning assessments and doing the same assessments,
quizzes, things over and over again, or the way you've always
done it. It's got to be done different.
(24:31):
Now there's things like AI adultlearners don't want to be bored.
They want immediate takeaways that they can, you know, put
into practice as soon as they leave your E learnings.
Another thing that Taylor does beyond the storytelling and the
authenticity and the community creation, the personalization
and connection. I don't know Taylor Swift and
(24:54):
some of you who are Swift, the listeners right now.
I mean, if you know Taylor Swift, congratulations.
But she writes songs and does things that make them feel like
they're just for you. Like you're just sitting in a
room with her by yourself and you're hearing her play a
certain song, you know, like it.It's something that's strictly
personalized just for you. Like listening to some of her
(25:16):
songs at different periods in mylife, I connected with them more
than I did at other certain periods of my life.
And and the albums definitely emulate different experiences.
So you can do this in LND too. So you really want to make, when
you're thinking about L&D, you want to make the learning
relevant to the roles, the goals, and the real, real life
(25:38):
problems. Learners need to feel like they
are seen. Like we truly need to empathize
and understand what our learnersare going through.
We're all learners too. We're not just the instructional
designers. We've been in training
experiences. So we really need to understand
what they are going through, what they are experiencing in
their roles, what they are maybeexperiencing outside of their
(26:01):
roles. Because there's a whole bunch of
different areas, you know, there's health stuff, there's
exercise stuff, there's, there'sa whole bunch of different ones
I can list. So then there's a
personalization and connection. The fan loyalty for Taylor Swift
equals trust. They stick with her because
through all of her reinventions and before Taylor Swift, there
(26:23):
was Madonna. So for using the honeys,
remember Donna Madonna, she remits herself quite a bit.
And Taylor Swift definitely does.
This is something that through these reinventions, she she just
like she's still the same personat her core, but she's just
going through a different phase in her life.
And she always delivers. She always delivers.
Can you imagine what that would be like if learners actually
(26:46):
trusted us and there wasn't thisanimosity between, oh, I have to
take another a learning. I have to sit there another hour
training just because the boss says I have to do it?
It's not something I really needto know.
What if we could shift that mindset through our learning
experiences? The training could be valuable,
(27:08):
engaging, and actually worth their time.
Actually worth their time. I'll repeat that.
What a difference that would make in our world.
I feel like trainings, learnings, education, you know,
name all the things that we've learned through really get a bad
(27:28):
reputation, no pun intended. You know, when it comes to what
we have to do in the workspace or what we have to do to to
grow. If you think every time you sit
down to design something, whether that's an infographic or
that's a step by step, how guidehow to do something and you can
(27:50):
earn the trust of your learners and make it valuable, engaging
and worth their time. Imagine how good it would feel
to have that sort of stuff. And people have done this, you
know, making sure that people feel connected.
As you all know, I've worked at I worked at Yellow Dig recently
(28:12):
as a director of growth marketing and I'm a huge
advocate of Yellow Dig because of the way it is set up to
connect people and the authenticity around that.
And as an instructor find that totally valuable.
And seeing the way that my students have connected through
there and got to know each other, it changed their
perspective on the course. They felt less intimidated by
(28:35):
the things or like they didn't feel like some of the things
they were doing were checklist. They were asking questions.
They were inquisitive about certain areas of learning to
develop more instructional design.
It just feels like they trusted each other and they trusted me.
Like we built a community throughout the 1416 week
semester. All right, I can go on and on
(28:57):
about this. So I'm going to wrap up the
episode. So the things that Disney and
Taylor Swift have both mastered as the experience.
It's immersive and it's emotional.
It's connected to the psyche. They have consistency.
Every detail aligns like one thing is related to the other
and the other thing is related to the other, and it's all
connected. In this vast world of different
(29:20):
things. Community.
People belong to something bigger than themselves.
Swifties are a huge community. Disney Adults are a huge
community. As much a bad rap as they get, I
feel like Disney Adults are so much fun, surprise, and delight.
Gamification, those little moments that people experience,
joy that keeps people hooked. It's not the negative stuff.
(29:42):
It's not like the if something negative happens in an
experience, why would we want togo back to that?
We don't, we don't. That's not good for our minds.
So the surprise and delight, nowtell me that these things
experience consistency, community in the surprise and
delight. That doesn't sound like the Holy
Grail of learning and development.
(30:06):
What you can do to change your learner's experiences.
You know what that does for you too.
It changes your whole experienceas an instructional designer
because you feel more connected to your learners.
Like we talked a lot about trust, here are three things you
can do today to make your learners more like Swifty's and
(30:28):
through the Disney World experience, all of your learning
#1 all of your learning like a Disney ride.
Where's the magic? Where's the long wait line?
Fix that friction. What is happening in the
experience that is just not working?
What do you need to do to kind of shift that?
(30:49):
Number 2, ask yourselves, would learners buy the merch from your
course? In other words, would they
proudly share a LinkedIn or telltheir peers about it?
When people love something, theyshare it.
They want to tell other people there's word of mouth.
That's a great that's that's like the best marketing ever is
(31:10):
when it spreads through word of mouth.
So are they going to buy into your course?
Are they going to share it on different sites?
Are they going to share with their friends?
And the number three add on Taylor Swift move in your
experience? Maybe it's storytelling.
That's something I really love to do.
(31:30):
Maybe it's an Easter egg, Maybe it's just making your content
more human. We are humans, in fact, did you
know that? So at the end of the day,
learners don't want to feel likethey're passive attendees.
They want to feel like fans, andfans come back for more.
(31:52):
So your challenge for you, something I'm given for you to
do the next time you design something, the next time you're
thinking about designer curriculum or program, it's
fine. You're Hidden Mickey or your
Taylor Easter egg. Something small.
These things are small. They're not huge.
Then makes your learners feel like they're part of something
(32:12):
bigger, something special. Because we're not just training
employees, we're building loyal learners.
And that's where the magic really happens.
Thank you. See you next time.
Thanks for spending a few minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is packed.
(32:34):
If today's episode sparked an idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, followor subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episodeof Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,too.
Want to keep the conversation going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn and share your biggest take
(32:56):
away. She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning, keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story. Talk soon.
Hi, we're ispring, an international team of e-learning
enthusiasts who help more than 60,000 clients across the globe
succeed with better online learning.
Our two flagship solutions are ispring Suite and ispring Learn
(33:17):
LMS.
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