February 13, 2025 • 40 mins
What if the businesses we often view as the problem could actually become the solution? Join us as we sit down with Shel Horowitz, a veteran activist who has turned his sights on harnessing the power of ethical business practices to spark sustainable change. Shel challenges the conventional perception of business as a negative force, revealing its untapped potential to drive positive impact.
Explore the compelling stories of industry giants like Toyota and General Mills, who are reshaping corporate social responsibility by aligning it with core business values. Shel shares insights on how forging alliances within and across industries can transform ethical initiatives into concrete, community-benefitting actions. Discover how collaboration and steadfast commitment to ethical practices can forge a path toward sustainable progress.
Our conversation doesn't stop at business; we reflect on the broader societal shifts since 1956, noting strides made in racial and gender equality while acknowledging the hurdles that remain. Shel highlights the unexpected role of large corporations, like Walmart, in democratizing access to sustainable products. In a world where sustainability is becoming mainstream, we underscore the necessity of strategic communication and audience-tailored messaging. Shel calls upon individuals and businesses alike to leverage the immense potential of collaboration and creative communication to build a sustainable future. Tune in for an episode rich with insights that could revolutionize your perspective on business and its role in societal change.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of Sustainability
Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShelHorowitz, widely regarded as the
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shel has dedicated his life toinspiring change, from his early
activism to his groundbreakingwork, combining grassroots
movements, sustainability andbusiness profitability.
(00:29):
We'll explore how Shell'sjourney from activist to
advocate offers insights fortoday's leaders navigating the
challenges challenges ofmeaningful change.
Welcome to another episode ofSustainability Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShellHorowitz, widely regarded as the
(00:51):
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shell has dedicated his life toinspiring change, from his
early activism to hisgroundbreaking work, combining
grassroots movements,sustainability and business
profitability.
We'll explore how Shell'sjourney from activist to
advocate offers insights fortoday's leaders navigating the
(01:15):
challenges of meaningful change.
Welcome to another episode ofSustainability Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShelHorowitz, widely regarded as the
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shel has dedicated his life toinspire Shel.
Thank you again for being herewith us today on Sustainability
(01:37):
Unveiled.
We're really excited to reallyjump into the conversation.
You've been in the world forthose who don't know, you've
been in the world of activismfor a very, very long time,
going all the way back to yourearly days in New York and even
being at the first Earth Day.
So what about those experienceshas really set you on this path
(01:58):
that has really become yourlife's work.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, you know, I became an activist at age 12, a
few months before the firstEarth Day, which reinforced the
activist commitment and openedup the environmental side of it.
But I went to a Vietnam Wardemonstration and one of the
speakers said the Vietnam War isan undeclared war.
And I actually hadn't knownthat and I had, you know,
inculcated all these lessonsfrom social studies class about
(02:23):
how the checks and balances workand how the government has
these three parts that protectus from overreach of any one
part, and that all came tumblingdown.
It seems just kind of prescientnow as we're going through a
similar phase as a country.
But that made me questioneverything.
(02:44):
So then, a few months later,the first Earth Day happened.
By then I was 13.
, much older.
This makes a whole lot of sense.
I'm just going to close thedoor because we're getting some
noise infiltrating.
But yeah, so those two eventskind of propelled me to look for
(03:07):
different ways of being in theworld and different ways that
the society could be in theworld, and then eventually
finding my way back to the moremainstream business arena, which
I was slow to come to.
Coming from that background,you can imagine that I saw
business to some degree asinherently evil.
And it took me a while toovercome that and to realize
(03:31):
that business can be not onlyokay but could actually be a
force for good.
And so the real big jump inthat thinking came in late 1999,
when a developer decided thatthe mountain next to the state
park behind my house was goingto be the perfect place to put
(03:51):
40 McMansions, going all the wayup to the ridgeline and ruining
the view and having majorenvironmental consequences.
And while all the experts weregoing, oh this is terrible,
there's nothing we can do, Iwent out and started a movement
and we saved the mountain andthat was incredibly exciting.
And I thought it would take usfive years and I thought we'd
(04:13):
have the first meeting and 20people would show up and five
would get seriously involved andwe would drag this out and make
the developer's lifeuncomfortable enough that he
would eventually give up.
Well, 70 people came to themeeting, 30 more called or
emailed and said I want to bepart of this, I can't make that
day.
Roughly 35 were in the coreafter that meeting and we won in
(04:37):
13 months flat.
So one year plus one monththat's more than impressive.
It's very.
It still amazes me now that wewere able to do it that, not
that I thought all along, as Isaid, that we would win, but I
thought it would be a muchlonger struggle.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I was going to say why do you think it was such a
shortened timeframe from whatyour expectations were to begin
with?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Part of it is because I took by then I had a 20-year
career in marketing and I tooklessons from that world into the
world of activism, and so wehad enormous press coverage.
For example, we had two localpapers that covered us
extensively.
One of them gave us, like Idon't know, 60 articles plus
(05:22):
letters to the editor.
And we had some TV and radiocoverage.
We even got into the BostonGlobe, which is a hundred miles
away but considers itself astatewide newspaper.
And so we had that.
We had a near consensus thatthis project was not a good idea
and the developer and maybefive of his friends were in
favor of it.
And like I would go into townhall to get a copy of some
(05:45):
document and the town clerk, whowas, on most issues, not
aligned with me politically, shewould say stuff like well, I'm
supposed to charge you for this,but since it's for save the
mountain, wink, wink.
So we had allies in unexpectedplaces.
We had allies in the businesscommunity, we had allies in the
colleges, we had allies fromlocal everybody.
(06:10):
Pretty much nobody wanted tosee that thing built.
So that was a big thing.
And at the very first pressrelease I wrote, said
developer's name has wildlyunderestimated the love that
people here have for thatmountain, and I was right.
Wildly underestimated the lovethat people here have for that
mountain, and I was right.
So we mobilized that love andwe passed three ordinances in
(06:32):
town that made it impossible,basically, for any future
developer to build on mountainsin town, and we did just all
sorts of things.
At one point some of our peoplewere tabling at the farmer's
market in the next town over andthe developer and his wife
happened to come strollingthrough and she turned to them
and said you people areeverywhere.
Like yep, we are Get used to it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And we're growing, and we're growing Exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
We turned in.
How many thousands of petitionsdo we have?
I live in a town of 5,000people Okay so small town.
(07:15):
Small town and surrounded bytwo towns of 30 Okay so small
town.
Various things.
They didn't know what to makeof us.
They had never seen a forcelike this in our town's politics
before.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Especially back then I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, we did have the internet, but it was early and
primitive.
We had a listserv on e-groups,if you remember that, and most
people at that time didn't evenhave web access.
This was 1999 and 2000.
So it was different from how itwould be today.
But then, when the dust settledafter we won, I started
(07:54):
thinking about well, we did allof these things from the
marketing world to make thisactivist campaign happen.
What can I bring from activisminto the business world?
And that's when I startedfocusing on this intersection of
finding the sweet spot whereprofitability meets
environmental and social good.
And it's bespoke.
(08:15):
It's different for every singlecompany.
It depends on what your corestrengths are as a company.
So there's a lot of businessanalysis that goes into any time
.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I'm proposing a solution for someone and it's
very exciting it is veryexciting and I mean I just it
makes me think of what werethose initial conversations like
when you started, you know,transforming how can
environmentalism impactbusinesses and bridging that gap
and making the connection.
(08:44):
Financialism impact businessesand bridging that gap and making
the connection.
And what were the reactionsfrom the business owners or
shareholders even smallercompanies that you were working
with that maybe had not everconsidered the work that you're
bringing to them?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, they were excited by it because, number
one, I was able to show them themarket potential that the
research over and over again,and I've written four books on
this.
The most recent is this one,guerrilla Marketing to Heal the
World yes, and that one has lotsand lots of references to
studies of the impact thatsocially conscious businesses
(09:18):
can have and also of the impactthat social and environmental
consciousness within thebusiness can have on the
business, and the numbers arephenomenal.
And if you think about it, itmakes sense.
Why would you not wantsomething that is going to lower
your costs by, for example,lowering what you're paying for
waste because you're generatingmuch less of it, lowering what
(09:39):
you're paying for fuel becauseyou're using much less of it, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera,and also gives you some price
stability, because consumers aremore willing to pay for
something that they feel isdoing good in the world and for
doing business with companiesthat are doing good in the world
that are doing good.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I was just about to say that there's plenty of
studies and I know we've coveredthem too where consumers are
willing to pay more for productsthat they know are sustainably
sourced or companies that reallydo have an ESG sustainability
strategy and are transparent.
They're not just puttinginformation out there, because
anybody can throw data andinformation up, but the
(10:17):
transparency aspect is key intoday's world, as I know you've
seen.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Totally, and it's also it ripples through in
things like it's really hard tobe a company that treats your
workers badly if you're tryingto do this stuff, because you
have to start by looking in yourown backyard or your own
factory floor and also becausethe employee loyalty benefits
that you get from doing this goaway if you're treating people
like crap.
So there are.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I mean there are and they'll make it known.
I mean, we've, we've all seenthose posts on LinkedIn which
can come across in various ways,or you know, when you're when
you're looking at job reviewsfrom people who have worked at
specific companies there.
There are platforms for thatnow.
So transparency, again, is sucha key aspect to any type of
(11:07):
business, regardless of the sizeof it, and not only stronger,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Only stronger Now.
Yeah, it behooves you as acompany head to do the right
thing, because otherwise it'sgoing to come back and smack you
.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Exactly, and the many conversations that I have had
with you know, whether it be aCEO or a sustainability director
or a manager or advocate is wedon't expect perfection, and I
think companies once theyrealize okay, we don't need to
be perfect, but we can show that, yeah, we've made some mistakes
(11:39):
, but we're learning from thosemistakes and we're moving
forward.
And these are the steps that weare taking to get us to where
we would like to be, and we wantto show our stakeholders,
internal and external, exactlywhat we are doing and to admit
that it's a process.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Nobody, not even Patagonia or flooring, jumps
into this with every singlething addressed all at once.
You start with the small stepsand the ones that have the
highest cost return.
That will start earning youprofits very quickly, and then
you can use some of the moneyyou're saving to go deeper and
deeper and deeper.
(12:15):
And I think most at this pointpeople realize that the Greta
Thunberg absolutism modeldoesn't really work in business,
that you have to give peoplethe credit to accept where they
are and that they're movingforward if they're moving
forward and you reward that,even though you say that's not
enough and you have to do more.
And I'm really particularlyconcerned about X, y and Z.
(12:37):
Can you address that in yournext six months?
Can you show us what you'regoing to do about that as
opposed to?
You're going to do about thatas opposed to?
You're not perfect, we're notdoing business with you.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Exactly Because that's not reality.
Not reality.
Now, advocacy work, I'm sure,has a lot of ups and downs
throughout the process, and youmentioned earlier when you are
working with businesses, you canlay out all of the data for
them to look at as to why theyshould implement a specific
strategy or focus on somethinglike that.
But what about?
How do you handle the pushback?
Even if you give you know thestakeholders internal
(13:17):
stakeholders all of the datathat says look, your profits are
going to increase, how do youdeal with those who
philosophically don't agreenecessarily with what you are
proposing to them?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, I make the bottom line case.
I say these are how yourrevenues can go up and these are
how your costs can go down.
And lower revenues plus sorry,higher revenues plus lower costs
equals higher profits andeverybody likes that.
And I also remind them that thecosts of not going forward are
significant, that if you want tohave consumers protesting at
(13:52):
your stockholders meeting or ifyou want to have people
boycotting your product becausethey're not at all convinced
that you're doing the rightthing, how are you going to deal
with that?
How are you going to deal withthe front page picture of your
CEO being let off in handcuffsfor raiding the company treasury
or getting sued forenvironmental violations?
(14:14):
That could have been avoided inthe first place if you had a
strategy.
So there's the carrot and thestick and the interesting thing
is most of the people who cometo me they don't need convincing
.
They come to me and they say Ineed to convince my boss, but
they're in.
So having allies on the groundis really crucial and I went to
several years ago it was beforethe pandemic.
(14:36):
I moderated a couple of panelsfor something called the
Responsible Business Summit andI was really fascinated that I'd
say two-thirds of the peoplethere were from major
corporations.
Okay, we're talking Toyota,we're talking General Mills, you
know Fortune 50.
They're all in.
(14:57):
They all understand thebusiness case.
They're all in.
They all understand thebusiness case.
And sometimes I did wonder whyFord chose several years ago
that their charity partner wasgoing to be Susan Komen
Foundation.
There's nothing wrong withbreast cancer research, but I
didn't see how it related to acompany that's-.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
How it aligned with them.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I didn't see the alignment and I think it's
good to have an alignment thatlike, if you're, let's just say,
timberland and you make shoes,that maybe you're looking at how
you can provide shoes forpeople who don't have them in
some distant country with someof the revenues and this is
Tom's Shoes actually does that.
And the sunglasses people.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yes, they do.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
You know there's a lot of companies doing that.
Glasses people yes, they do.
You know there's a lot ofcompanies doing that.
And then my friend, dean Sycon,who, until he retired recently
and gave the company to hisemployees, ran a lovely coffee
company called Dean's Beans.
From here, not only was everybean he ever sourced of either
coffee or cacao, organicallygrown and fair trade or, better,
(16:00):
certified, but he took profitsand said to his growers okay,
your village gets to decide on aproject with this money that I
will supply and I will providetechnical guidance, but you're
in charge.
And that model was able to doin places like Rwanda, in places
like Guatemala, where there's areal need and where this stuff
(16:24):
can do a huge difference, justlike micro-lending, except that
there's nothing to pay back.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Has he, as the person that you are referring to?
Has he been able to help otherbusinesses?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
kind of set up a similar model, well he's written
a book on it called JavaTrekker, and trekker is spelled
with two Ks.
That came out like 20 years agowith Chelsea Green, and he's
spoken at coffee conferences.
So he's done what he can andagain now he's retired from the
business, gave it to hisemployees and is writing fiction
(16:57):
.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
But for him, you know , he's done what he has wanted
to do, he's been successful andnow he gets to enjoy his time
writing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And he had a previous career as a labor lawyer.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Never too late, right ?
Never too late to change it up.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I love him because he's so ethical that he actually
was offered I think it was anexclusive contract to do the
Coffee for Keurig when theyfirst came out, and he turned it
down because of the plasticwaste Before you even said it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
He even helped develop some compostable
cardboard-ish Keurig containersthat I've now seen on the market
.
I don't know if he had anythingto do with the ones that
actually came out, but I know hewas working on that in the
2000s.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I want to get back to .
You mentioned that you'vespoken at some of the biggest
forums with companies theFortune 50 companies and what's
one message that you really hopesticks with not just the CEOs
there, but the next generationof change makers that are a part
(18:05):
of these forums?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I'm going to give you two messages, because I think
in the immediate moment thatwe're recording this, there
needs to be a message that youdon't back down to bullies and
you continue doing the goodthings that your company has
started to do and shown to beprofitable for the last 10 or 20
or 50 or 100 years and youdon't get cowed by the threats
(18:26):
and the rhetoric and thenonsense that's coming out right
now.
Hopefully that is a short-termneed.
So longer term, just rememberthat when you collaborate with
your consumers, with yourdevelopers of products, with
your supply chain, you have alot more power than if you try
(18:48):
to do it alone, just as if,within your company organization
, if you're the only personchampioning the cause, it's not
going to happen unless you arethe CEO, and even then it's
going to happen with greatresistance, whereas if you go to
HR and you say this is how thisis going to resistance.
Whereas if you go to HR and yousay this is how this is going to
benefit you and you go tomarketing and say, oh, look at
these cool angles we're going tobe able to give you.
And you go to production andyou say look how lower you're
(19:12):
going to have a bill to disposeof the waste and you build the
coalition internally, then youcan do amazing things.
And then, beyond that, then youcan become the industry
standard and reach out throughyour industry groups to
influence other people to dowhat you're doing.
Yes, you lose some of thecompetitive advantage, but being
first is still an advantage.
(19:32):
I think, for example, recycledtoilet paper and Markel which,
marilyn, you probably are justat the southern edge of their
supply area.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I was about to say I don't recognize the brands, but
I will be looking to see whereit is New.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
York City, philadelphia, that middle
Atlantic, I think they may godown to DC but they may not.
But anyway they went bankruptin I think it was 2006, 2007,
something like that.
And the guy who came in as aturnaround CEO noticed that they
(20:07):
had been recycling since 1950.
They had been making theirtoilet paper from recycled paper
and they forgot to tell anybody.
So he built a whole rebrandingaround.
That Amazing stuff Pulled thecompany out of bankruptcy.
It became the best-sellingrecycled toilet paper in the
(20:29):
country.
And again, this is a regionalbrand.
This is not Seventh Generationor Scott.
That's got national penetration.
And I came up to tour theirplant in New Jersey years ago
and when I did I stayed with myin-laws and my mother-in-law
said I always buy Markel becauseit's recycled.
And I thought well, you alwaysbuy Markel because not only is
it recycled but it's right nextto the Scott on the shelf of the
(20:51):
store you were already in.
Because she's what I call alazy green, I divide the market
into deep greens like you and me, lazy greens like her, and then
neutral or hostile non-greens.
Non- greens.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, there's plenty of those, unfortunately, that
are making their voices known atthis exact time when we're
recording this there are, butthey're a small minority.
I think they have a lot ofpoints and not that much reach.
I agree.
I agree the plant was aninteresting experience, I'm sure
to just see the production.
I had the chance to go toJakarta last year with Asia
(21:28):
Pulvin Paper and see theirproduction and talk about their
sustainability plan and howthey're growing and it's pretty
amazing how it all workstogether there.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
There are examples everywhere you look, in any
industry.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, yeah, couldn't agree more with you there.
Now, you know, when we weretalking prior to the, prior to
this conversation, we talkedabout how, you know, sarah and I
, as owners of Annie Leader, we,you know, our goal with this
goal, with SustainabilityUnveiled, is really to make that
connection to the nextgeneration or somebody who might
(22:05):
not be open to this world ofactivism, sustainable leadership
.
So, for those who areinterested in advocacy and not
necessarily starting a movementbut joining a movement, but they
really aren't sure how or whereto start, what advice do you
have for them?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Well, first of all, if you're working in the
business world, usebusiness-friendly language.
So you don't use the wordactivism, particularly because
activism those are the peoplethat are protesting their
corporate share meeting.
Those are the ones who arewriting nasty letters to the
editor about them.
That's how it's perceived.
So I use it and say goingbeyond sustainability to
(22:47):
regenerativity, and regenerativeis something that the business
world can wrap its brain around.
So and I say it's notsustainability is staying in the
same place and that's notgetting any worse, and that's a
good first step.
But that really we want to makethings better and we can.
We have that power and we seeit in my goodness.
When the UN sustainability goalswere introduced, I thought,
well, this is nice rhetoric, butnobody's going to do anything.
(23:09):
Boy, was I wrong.
Those have been markers forprogress and, oh my goodness,
just steps toward ending hunger,for example, or toward
empowering women.
I never thought I would see insome of these countries.
And it's become mainstream.
(23:29):
And you know, it's just mindblowing how far we've come, how
now, when I started withenvironmental work, we were so
fringy and now, as I said, yousee Fortune 50 companies having
these discussions, not justhaving these discussions, but
having these departments.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I thought when I started this work.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I might get consulting gigs with companies
like that, but they all havetheir own staff.
They don't need me.
The smaller companies, the oneswith 10 employees, they need me
.
They don't have a full-timesustainability person and they
don't necessarily have themindset or the resources to do
some of the things that the bigcompanies are doing, and so for
them you have to go very bottomline, because it's their money
you're dealing with.
(24:06):
It's not just the company'smoney, it's totally intertwined.
So you have to really look atwhat are the things you can do.
That's going to have a paybackof two months or five months.
Start with those things andthen, as they gradually come
along I mean my own journey.
I became a vegetarian in 1973.
I joined my first food co-op in1975.
(24:28):
I started my first real organicgarden I won't count the one I
had in Brooklyn, that was 1982.
So, step by step, and now I canactually talk on a deep level.
I've spoken at something calledthe Sustainable Food Summit.
I gave a keynote there.
Familiar with that, yeah, yeah.
So that's my journey.
(24:48):
In that particular slice hascome a long way.
But we just actually got ourfirst hybrid car three weeks ago
.
And it's I know you had justgotten it the first time we met.
So how has it been?
It's been great.
I really like it and it handlesway better than our 2012 Honda
(25:10):
that we still have.
But this is the first new carwe've bought since 2005 and in
2000, no 2004.
And at that time the hybridoptions really weren't there yet
.
So it's not like we'vedeliberately bought gas cars.
It's just we inherited one carand we bought another one used
very cheap, and it's just notworked out to buy a new car.
(25:32):
But we knew all along that whenwe did buy something new, it
was going to be something muchgreener, and this is yes.
I just unplugged it shortlybefore we talked.
It was in overnight usinghousehold current.
We didn't build anythingspecial for it.
I have an extension cord thatgoes from that outlet on my
house to my driveway.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Hey, you know it works.
As we said before, we have anEV and we have solar on our roof
and we have our own chargerthat we charge, you know, the
car at night.
So you know everyone can dotheir part in some aspect.
Our big goal this year, as aside note, is to start
composting, because that's wehave the space and it's we've
talked about it, but that issomething that we are going to
(26:11):
start.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's actually really easy.
We have a three pit system.
We dig three holes and we startfilling one of them and cover
it with leaves, and then, afterseveral months, we start the
next one, and then, by the timethat next one is done, the first
one is ready to put into thegarden.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Excellent.
Well, we'll talk more off thisepisode about that.
So you can just tell me what Ineed to get and what I need to
do.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
The point where I was going with this is that all of
us can take individual steps.
One of the things that I'mreally concerned about is the
way we squander water, andthat's unlike the issue with oil
, which is mostly a bigcorporate use and we individual
householders are really a minorpart of it.
That doesn't mean we shouldn'tdo our part.
I have solar on my roof too.
We have our organic garden andall the rest of it, but
(26:56):
especially in the Northeast, weare trained from a very early
age Like when we brush our teeth, we turn the water on full.
We leave it running threeminutes.
We waste I don't know fivegallons of water Every time we
brush our teeth.
I brush my teeth Like I live inthe California drought.
I turn the water on to wet mytoothbrush just a trickle, turn
(27:16):
it off again, add the toothpaste, brush my teeth, turn it on
another trickle to rinse thetoothbrush.
You know and I'm usingteaspoons and I think water is a
very, very undervalued resourcebecause most of us don't
realize that we're even payinganything for it.
What we're paying is very, verylittle, and so if every person
(27:38):
listening to this call brushyour teeth that way, wash your
hands on that principle, didwhatever you're doing with water
that way watered your garden inthe morning and evening, when
more of the water stays in theground.
The impact would be enormous.
I don't think there would be aCalifornia drought if everybody
in this country was doing that.
No, I think that's great.
(27:59):
Yeah, so many different.
Every just think creativelyabout how we use resources.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I mean my son this morning reminded me that I had
the water on for our sink but inmy defense I was cleaning out a
pot and letting water go inthere.
I'm sure you've seen that withyour kids and letting water go
in there.
But you know, it might even Imean I'm sure you've seen that
with your kids.
I know your kids are adults nowbut I'm sure the work that
you've done, not just personallybut professionally, has also
(28:27):
transcended into you know, thework that your, what your kids
are doing.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, they both have quite a bit of activity in the
social change world, and mydaughter actually works for a
effective altruism company andmy younger one teaches music in
public schools.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, good for him.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's a different kind .
Speaker 1 (28:49):
As a former teacher as my husband likes to say, I
retired 10 years ago but assomeone who spent 10 and a half
years in the school system, Iknow what he's going through and
what he's gone through as ateacher, they actually use them
pronouns.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
They don't go by he, they go by they them.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Okay, I'm sorry about that.
Yes, thank you for correctingme.
I appreciate that.
Now you've been at this fordecades, what keeps you going?
What keeps you going to thatnext project, working with that
next company?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I am fundamentally wired to be optimistic, I think,
and I've done some things tobuild that up.
You know you can be optimisticand still get totally sunk, but
for one thing, I do a gratitudejournal every single day and I
post it publicly on Facebook.
So I am accountable to my fans.
I have to find something to begrateful for every single day,
(29:43):
even the hard days, like the daymy stepfather was hit by a
distracted driver and killed.
So that day's journey is allabout what I had learned from
him in 50 years of knowing him.
Wow, you know, and it was ahard day.
It was the hard day whenJustice Kavanaugh was confirmed.
I wrote about the movement thattried to stop that confirmation
(30:03):
.
So if I can't find somethingdirect, I can find something
indirect like that, and I'vebeen doing it.
It's coming up on seven years,another month and seven years
that I've been doing this everysingle day.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's incredible.
Yeah, that is absolutelyincredible.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And how has it?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
really changed.
I mean, I'm sure it impacts youknow the people that read it,
but really how has it?
Has it impacted you putting allof this out there?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Very deeply.
Uh, because now I spend my dayslooking for things to be
grateful about, so I havesomething for my audience and I
find them and I feel like it'smade me a better person.
I've had a private gratitudepractice and happiness practice
for decades.
I made a decision in theeighties to have a happy life
and I always refer to that asthe best decision I ever made.
(30:52):
So I look at the world from apositive lens and doing the work
that led to the book and thespeaking and the consulting
really helped with that.
Also because I'm reading stufflike what you put out, what
Triple Pundit puts out.
It's all the good things goingon that we don't see in our
mainstream news reports andthank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Well, thank you for reading us, thank you for doing
what you do.
Well, thank you for reading us.
You know we want to make theworld aware of, you know, some
of the smaller stories ordifferent stories that they're
not going to be able to see.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
And you know, really hone in on those special
projects too, yeah, and some ofthem turn out to be big stories
Arab Spring, for example.
I mean the idea that a movementthat was really totally
nonviolent could overthrow whatwas it?
Four governments within a fewmonths.
It's just mind blowing.
It is more current than I am onthe stats of like how much
(32:01):
solar and wind and geothermaland small scale hydro have
pushed out the oil and the gasand the coal.
It's a real turnaround.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
It's and people don't realize this too that the state
of Texas and what they havedone in their clean energy
infrastructure it's surpassingso many other states, and when
you think of Texas, you think ofbig oil.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
So there's yeah, there's a lot of places where
this is about that, and China.
China has the most coal plants,I think, of any country in the
world, and they're building more, but they've also so much moved
toward wind and solar and thevehicle fleet.
And this was really goodbecause, like the first time I
went to China in 2016,.
And this was really goodbecause, the first time I went
to China in 2016, the air was sobad in the cities we were in
(32:44):
and I was there again last yearin an admittedly much more rural
area, but rural by Chinesestandards, which means there's
only 8 million people instead of24 in the big city.
But the air quality in Kunmingwas not bad and I think part of
the reason is the huge shift toelectric vehicles over there.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
No, I couldn't agree more.
Well, so many lessons have comeout of this conversation
already.
I really want to look ahead nowand what excites you the most
about the future ofsustainability and advocacy.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Wow, big question.
Well, first of all, I'dencourage people to go to my
website,goingbeyondsustainabilitycom to
find out some of the things thatI've already gotten involved
with, but also I'm thinking veryseriously about finding someone
like Third Act or AARP topartner with a book on being
(33:43):
activists in your 60s and beyondor if it's AARP, it'll be in
your 50s and beyond, and I havemy own experience to draw on,
but I'm actually the secondyoungest person in the core of
our immigration justice groupand the youngest is my wife,
who's six months younger than Iam.
Also, I'm actually the secondyoungest person in the core of
our immigration justice groupand the youngest is my wife,
(34:06):
who's six months younger than Iam, and I have been to 200th
birthday parties for people whowere still activists on their
centennial birthday Wow, so Ihave potentially 30 more years
to do this, which is amazing.
That's exciting, and what alsoexcites me is how far we've come
.
I was born in 1956.
Not only were South Africa andwhat was then called Rhodesia,
(34:28):
now called Zimbabwe, totallysegregated, but half of the
United States was totallysegregated, segregated, but half
of the United States wastotally segregated.
Women if they had a job outsidethe home, they were nurses,
maids, teachers, and that waspretty much it.
Secretaries that's secretaries.
Yeah, I knew I was forgettingone, so that's a huge shift.
(34:51):
People of color weremarginalized in ways that they
are no longer.
There's still lots and lots ofwork to be done.
We have not eliminated any ofthe isms, but one of the you
know, one of the platforms thatI stand on is some of the ones
you'd expect, like catastrophicclimate change into planetary
balance, but also othering intoequity, really making that
(35:16):
commitment to bring everybodyalong and not push people down
because of what they look likeor who they sleep with or
whatever.
And then the other two are warinto peace, which is a big, big
jump and one that we've got like10,000 years of bad history to
overcome.
But there's also been many,many successes in that.
(35:38):
And when I say war, I includeother kinds of violence too,
like domestic violence is a war.
It's a war on one person?
Yes, it is.
So there's lots of work to bedone and I am not going to live
to do it all, and I am alsoencouraged that places you would
not expect, like a certain very, very large retail store chain
(36:02):
based in Bentonville, arkansas,named Walmart, has probably done
more for sustainable supplychains than I have done in all
my years of speaking andconsulting and writing, because
they demanded of their suppliersand they are not a tree hugger
company.
In fact, I have some seriousissues with some of their
(36:23):
policies and I'm not a customer,but I really applaud what they
have done on moving the businesscase forward, for doing the
right thing on the environment,and I actually tried to get the
statistic updated just this week.
I wrote to their corporatepress office and, unless they
(36:44):
answered this morning, I haven'tgotten an answer yet.
But I asked them how muchorganic food are you selling
these days?
Because the last time I had astatistic for that, I had to
extrapolate it and do the mathmyself.
From some other statistics Ifound but it came to $15 million
a year that they were sellingorganic foods and this is like
10 years ago and it was actually.
(37:04):
Was it million or billion?
Maybe it was billion, itmust've been billion.
Anyway, they were selling moreorganic food than Whole Foods.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I remember we talked about this before too.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause I had forgotten, which
was a staggering statistic.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Staggering and the really interesting thing to me
is the people who buy theirorganic food in Walmart are
people who've probably never setfoot in a Whole Foods in their
lives and are never going to.
So they doubled the market, notby selling more stuff to the
same people, but by selling topeople who didn't think they
needed it before.
That's great, and they've alsotheir own.
(37:44):
They're a real poster child forthe idea that you can save
enormous amounts of money bydoing the green stuff.
But greening their truck fleet,greening their stores, has paid
off hugely in cost savings forthem, as well as in propaganda
points for a company that sorelyneeds them because they're not
well regarded on labor or storesiting or a bunch of other stuff
.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, no, definitely there.
Well, I have thoroughly enjoyedour conversation.
I'm going to give you the floorfor any last minute.
You know lessons or pieces ofadvice that you want to leave
our viewers with and we willhave a link to on the podcast
page, to Shell's webpage, alongwith a book.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Right, it's goingbeyondsustainabilitycom.
And the advice?
First of all, know that oneperson can do a difference.
Make a difference, but knowthat that difference is going to
be much amplified if you findother people to work with.
Know that you have to targetyour message to the people
you're talking to.
So we've talked a lot in thisconversation about how to talk
(38:44):
in the corporate world aboutthese things.
In a talk I do called MakingGreen Sexy, which is about the
B2C business to consumer side, Italk about the difference in
what kind of messaging you woulddo.
Just as you would not put thesame ad in the National Enquirer
and the New Yorker magazine youdon't want to give.
The same message points to thedeep greens, the lazy greens and
(39:06):
the non-greens, and certainlynot to the anti-greens.
So, like the deep greens, yousell the green stuff, and to the
anti-greens, you sell thepersonal comfort, the cost
savings, the personal benefits.
And there's a lot more of thisin the book Guerrilla Marketing
to Heal the World, on thewebsite and I'm also anybody
listening here if you tell methat you heard Jessica's show, I
(39:29):
will give anybody a 15-minuteconsult, but if you mention that
, I'll make it 30.
And that 30 minutes is enoughto really get down and deep into
what your company can be doingand what your organization.
Where are the opportunities,where is the intersection with
your strengths?
And that's a pretty powerfulthing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
It is.
It is, and I hope people dotake advantage of that.
Well, again, thank you forbeing on with us.
I hope this is not our lastconversation.
I'd love to have you back on inthe future.
That would be a pleasure, yeah,in the next 60 seconds, ask
yourself how can I contribute toa brighter, more sustainable
future, not just personally, butprofessionally?
(40:09):
Let's embark on this journeytogether and shape the landscape
of sustainable leadership fortomorrow.
Take the first step now andmake a commitment to lead with
sustainability in mind.
That's all for this episode ofSustainability Unveiled.
Join us next time as wecontinue exploring the forefront
of sustainable businesspractices.
(40:30):
Until then, stay informed, staysustainable.
Welcome to another episode of Sustainability
Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShelHorowitz, widely regarded as the
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shel has dedicated his life toinspiring change, from his early
activism to his groundbreakingwork, combining grassroots
movements, sustainability andbusiness profitability.
(00:29):
We'll explore how Shell'sjourney from activist to
advocate offers insights fortoday's leaders navigating the
challenges challenges ofmeaningful change.
Welcome to another episode ofSustainability Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShellHorowitz, widely regarded as the
(00:51):
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shell has dedicated his life toinspiring change, from his
early activism to hisgroundbreaking work, combining
grassroots movements,sustainability and business
profitability.
We'll explore how Shell'sjourney from activist to
advocate offers insights fortoday's leaders navigating the
(01:15):
challenges of meaningful change.
Welcome to another episode ofSustainability Unveiled Today.
We're honored to have ShelHorowitz, widely regarded as the
Sherpa of social transformation.
Join us.
Shel has dedicated his life toinspire Shel.
Thank you again for being herewith us today on Sustainability
(01:37):
Unveiled.
We're really excited to reallyjump into the conversation.
You've been in the world forthose who don't know, you've
been in the world of activismfor a very, very long time,
going all the way back to yourearly days in New York and even
being at the first Earth Day.
So what about those experienceshas really set you on this path
(01:58):
that has really become yourlife's work.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well, you know, I became an activist at age 12, a
few months before the firstEarth Day, which reinforced the
activist commitment and openedup the environmental side of it.
But I went to a Vietnam Wardemonstration and one of the
speakers said the Vietnam War isan undeclared war.
And I actually hadn't knownthat and I had, you know,
inculcated all these lessonsfrom social studies class about
(02:23):
how the checks and balances workand how the government has
these three parts that protectus from overreach of any one
part, and that all came tumblingdown.
It seems just kind of prescientnow as we're going through a
similar phase as a country.
But that made me questioneverything.
(02:44):
So then, a few months later,the first Earth Day happened.
By then I was 13.
, much older.
This makes a whole lot of sense.
I'm just going to close thedoor because we're getting some
noise infiltrating.
But yeah, so those two eventskind of propelled me to look for
(03:07):
different ways of being in theworld and different ways that
the society could be in theworld, and then eventually
finding my way back to the moremainstream business arena, which
I was slow to come to.
Coming from that background,you can imagine that I saw
business to some degree asinherently evil.
And it took me a while toovercome that and to realize
(03:31):
that business can be not onlyokay but could actually be a
force for good.
And so the real big jump inthat thinking came in late 1999,
when a developer decided thatthe mountain next to the state
park behind my house was goingto be the perfect place to put
(03:51):
40 McMansions, going all the wayup to the ridgeline and ruining
the view and having majorenvironmental consequences.
And while all the experts weregoing, oh this is terrible,
there's nothing we can do, Iwent out and started a movement
and we saved the mountain andthat was incredibly exciting.
And I thought it would take usfive years and I thought we'd
(04:13):
have the first meeting and 20people would show up and five
would get seriously involved andwe would drag this out and make
the developer's lifeuncomfortable enough that he
would eventually give up.
Well, 70 people came to themeeting, 30 more called or
emailed and said I want to bepart of this, I can't make that
day.
Roughly 35 were in the coreafter that meeting and we won in
(04:37):
13 months flat.
So one year plus one monththat's more than impressive.
It's very.
It still amazes me now that wewere able to do it that, not
that I thought all along, as Isaid, that we would win, but I
thought it would be a muchlonger struggle.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I was going to say why do you think it was such a
shortened timeframe from whatyour expectations were to begin
with?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Part of it is because I took by then I had a 20-year
career in marketing and I tooklessons from that world into the
world of activism, and so wehad enormous press coverage.
For example, we had two localpapers that covered us
extensively.
One of them gave us, like Idon't know, 60 articles plus
(05:22):
letters to the editor.
And we had some TV and radiocoverage.
We even got into the BostonGlobe, which is a hundred miles
away but considers itself astatewide newspaper.
And so we had that.
We had a near consensus thatthis project was not a good idea
and the developer and maybefive of his friends were in
favor of it.
And like I would go into townhall to get a copy of some
(05:45):
document and the town clerk, whowas, on most issues, not
aligned with me politically, shewould say stuff like well, I'm
supposed to charge you for this,but since it's for save the
mountain, wink, wink.
So we had allies in unexpectedplaces.
We had allies in the businesscommunity, we had allies in the
colleges, we had allies fromlocal everybody.
(06:10):
Pretty much nobody wanted tosee that thing built.
So that was a big thing.
And at the very first pressrelease I wrote, said
developer's name has wildlyunderestimated the love that
people here have for thatmountain, and I was right.
Wildly underestimated the lovethat people here have for that
mountain, and I was right.
So we mobilized that love andwe passed three ordinances in
(06:32):
town that made it impossible,basically, for any future
developer to build on mountainsin town, and we did just all
sorts of things.
At one point some of our peoplewere tabling at the farmer's
market in the next town over andthe developer and his wife
happened to come strollingthrough and she turned to them
and said you people areeverywhere.
Like yep, we are Get used to it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
And we're growing, and we're growing Exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
We turned in.
How many thousands of petitionsdo we have?
I live in a town of 5,000people Okay so small town.
(07:15):
Small town and surrounded bytwo towns of 30 Okay so small
town.
Various things.
They didn't know what to makeof us.
They had never seen a forcelike this in our town's politics
before.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Especially back then I mean.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, we did have the internet, but it was early and
primitive.
We had a listserv on e-groups,if you remember that, and most
people at that time didn't evenhave web access.
This was 1999 and 2000.
So it was different from how itwould be today.
But then, when the dust settledafter we won, I started
(07:54):
thinking about well, we did allof these things from the
marketing world to make thisactivist campaign happen.
What can I bring from activisminto the business world?
And that's when I startedfocusing on this intersection of
finding the sweet spot whereprofitability meets
environmental and social good.
And it's bespoke.
(08:15):
It's different for every singlecompany.
It depends on what your corestrengths are as a company.
So there's a lot of businessanalysis that goes into any time
.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I'm proposing a solution for someone and it's
very exciting it is veryexciting and I mean I just it
makes me think of what werethose initial conversations like
when you started, you know,transforming how can
environmentalism impactbusinesses and bridging that gap
and making the connection.
(08:44):
Financialism impact businessesand bridging that gap and making
the connection.
And what were the reactionsfrom the business owners or
shareholders even smallercompanies that you were working
with that maybe had not everconsidered the work that you're
bringing to them?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, they were excited by it because, number
one, I was able to show them themarket potential that the
research over and over again,and I've written four books on
this.
The most recent is this one,guerrilla Marketing to Heal the
World yes, and that one has lotsand lots of references to
studies of the impact thatsocially conscious businesses
(09:18):
can have and also of the impactthat social and environmental
consciousness within thebusiness can have on the
business, and the numbers arephenomenal.
And if you think about it, itmakes sense.
Why would you not wantsomething that is going to lower
your costs by, for example,lowering what you're paying for
waste because you're generatingmuch less of it, lowering what
(09:39):
you're paying for fuel becauseyou're using much less of it, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera,and also gives you some price
stability, because consumers aremore willing to pay for
something that they feel isdoing good in the world and for
doing business with companiesthat are doing good in the world
that are doing good.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I was just about to say that there's plenty of
studies and I know we've coveredthem too where consumers are
willing to pay more for productsthat they know are sustainably
sourced or companies that reallydo have an ESG sustainability
strategy and are transparent.
They're not just puttinginformation out there, because
anybody can throw data andinformation up, but the
(10:17):
transparency aspect is key intoday's world, as I know you've
seen.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Totally, and it's also it ripples through in
things like it's really hard tobe a company that treats your
workers badly if you're tryingto do this stuff, because you
have to start by looking in yourown backyard or your own
factory floor and also becausethe employee loyalty benefits
that you get from doing this goaway if you're treating people
like crap.
So there are.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I mean there are and they'll make it known.
I mean, we've, we've all seenthose posts on LinkedIn which
can come across in various ways,or you know, when you're when
you're looking at job reviewsfrom people who have worked at
specific companies there.
There are platforms for thatnow.
So transparency, again, is sucha key aspect to any type of
(11:07):
business, regardless of the sizeof it, and not only stronger,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Only stronger Now.
Yeah, it behooves you as acompany head to do the right
thing, because otherwise it'sgoing to come back and smack you
.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Exactly, and the many conversations that I have had
with you know, whether it be aCEO or a sustainability director
or a manager or advocate is wedon't expect perfection, and I
think companies once theyrealize okay, we don't need to
be perfect, but we can show that, yeah, we've made some mistakes
(11:39):
, but we're learning from thosemistakes and we're moving
forward.
And these are the steps that weare taking to get us to where
we would like to be, and we wantto show our stakeholders,
internal and external, exactlywhat we are doing and to admit
that it's a process.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Nobody, not even Patagonia or flooring, jumps
into this with every singlething addressed all at once.
You start with the small stepsand the ones that have the
highest cost return.
That will start earning youprofits very quickly, and then
you can use some of the moneyyou're saving to go deeper and
deeper and deeper.
(12:15):
And I think most at this pointpeople realize that the Greta
Thunberg absolutism modeldoesn't really work in business,
that you have to give peoplethe credit to accept where they
are and that they're movingforward if they're moving
forward and you reward that,even though you say that's not
enough and you have to do more.
And I'm really particularlyconcerned about X, y and Z.
(12:37):
Can you address that in yournext six months?
Can you show us what you'regoing to do about that as
opposed to?
You're going to do about thatas opposed to?
You're not perfect, we're notdoing business with you.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Exactly Because that's not reality.
Not reality.
Now, advocacy work, I'm sure,has a lot of ups and downs
throughout the process, and youmentioned earlier when you are
working with businesses, you canlay out all of the data for
them to look at as to why theyshould implement a specific
strategy or focus on somethinglike that.
But what about?
How do you handle the pushback?
Even if you give you know thestakeholders internal
(13:17):
stakeholders all of the datathat says look, your profits are
going to increase, how do youdeal with those who
philosophically don't agreenecessarily with what you are
proposing to them?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, I make the bottom line case.
I say these are how yourrevenues can go up and these are
how your costs can go down.
And lower revenues plus sorry,higher revenues plus lower costs
equals higher profits andeverybody likes that.
And I also remind them that thecosts of not going forward are
significant, that if you want tohave consumers protesting at
(13:52):
your stockholders meeting or ifyou want to have people
boycotting your product becausethey're not at all convinced
that you're doing the rightthing, how are you going to deal
with that?
How are you going to deal withthe front page picture of your
CEO being let off in handcuffsfor raiding the company treasury
or getting sued forenvironmental violations?
(14:14):
That could have been avoided inthe first place if you had a
strategy.
So there's the carrot and thestick and the interesting thing
is most of the people who cometo me they don't need convincing
.
They come to me and they say Ineed to convince my boss, but
they're in.
So having allies on the groundis really crucial and I went to
several years ago it was beforethe pandemic.
(14:36):
I moderated a couple of panelsfor something called the
Responsible Business Summit andI was really fascinated that I'd
say two-thirds of the peoplethere were from major
corporations.
Okay, we're talking Toyota,we're talking General Mills, you
know Fortune 50.
They're all in.
(14:57):
They all understand thebusiness case.
They're all in.
They all understand thebusiness case.
And sometimes I did wonder whyFord chose several years ago
that their charity partner wasgoing to be Susan Komen
Foundation.
There's nothing wrong withbreast cancer research, but I
didn't see how it related to acompany that's-.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
How it aligned with them.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I didn't see the alignment and I think it's
good to have an alignment thatlike, if you're, let's just say,
timberland and you make shoes,that maybe you're looking at how
you can provide shoes forpeople who don't have them in
some distant country with someof the revenues and this is
Tom's Shoes actually does that.
And the sunglasses people.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yes, they do.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
You know there's a lot of companies doing that.
Glasses people yes, they do.
You know there's a lot ofcompanies doing that.
And then my friend, dean Sycon,who, until he retired recently
and gave the company to hisemployees, ran a lovely coffee
company called Dean's Beans.
From here, not only was everybean he ever sourced of either
coffee or cacao, organicallygrown and fair trade or, better,
(16:00):
certified, but he took profitsand said to his growers okay,
your village gets to decide on aproject with this money that I
will supply and I will providetechnical guidance, but you're
in charge.
And that model was able to doin places like Rwanda, in places
like Guatemala, where there's areal need and where this stuff
(16:24):
can do a huge difference, justlike micro-lending, except that
there's nothing to pay back.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Has he, as the person that you are referring to?
Has he been able to help otherbusinesses?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
kind of set up a similar model, well he's written
a book on it called JavaTrekker, and trekker is spelled
with two Ks.
That came out like 20 years agowith Chelsea Green, and he's
spoken at coffee conferences.
So he's done what he can andagain now he's retired from the
business, gave it to hisemployees and is writing fiction
(16:57):
.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
But for him, you know , he's done what he has wanted
to do, he's been successful andnow he gets to enjoy his time
writing.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And he had a previous career as a labor lawyer.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Never too late, right ?
Never too late to change it up.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I love him because he's so ethical that he actually
was offered I think it was anexclusive contract to do the
Coffee for Keurig when theyfirst came out, and he turned it
down because of the plasticwaste Before you even said it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
He even helped develop some compostable
cardboard-ish Keurig containersthat I've now seen on the market
.
I don't know if he had anythingto do with the ones that
actually came out, but I know hewas working on that in the
2000s.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I want to get back to .
You mentioned that you'vespoken at some of the biggest
forums with companies theFortune 50 companies and what's
one message that you really hopesticks with not just the CEOs
there, but the next generationof change makers that are a part
(18:05):
of these forums?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I'm going to give you two messages, because I think
in the immediate moment thatwe're recording this, there
needs to be a message that youdon't back down to bullies and
you continue doing the goodthings that your company has
started to do and shown to beprofitable for the last 10 or 20
or 50 or 100 years and youdon't get cowed by the threats
(18:26):
and the rhetoric and thenonsense that's coming out right
now.
Hopefully that is a short-termneed.
So longer term, just rememberthat when you collaborate with
your consumers, with yourdevelopers of products, with
your supply chain, you have alot more power than if you try
(18:48):
to do it alone, just as if,within your company organization
, if you're the only personchampioning the cause, it's not
going to happen unless you arethe CEO, and even then it's
going to happen with greatresistance, whereas if you go to
HR and you say this is how thisis going to resistance.
Whereas if you go to HR and yousay this is how this is going to
benefit you and you go tomarketing and say, oh, look at
these cool angles we're going tobe able to give you.
And you go to production andyou say look how lower you're
(19:12):
going to have a bill to disposeof the waste and you build the
coalition internally, then youcan do amazing things.
And then, beyond that, then youcan become the industry
standard and reach out throughyour industry groups to
influence other people to dowhat you're doing.
Yes, you lose some of thecompetitive advantage, but being
first is still an advantage.
(19:32):
I think, for example, recycledtoilet paper and Markel which,
marilyn, you probably are justat the southern edge of their
supply area.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I was about to say I don't recognize the brands, but
I will be looking to see whereit is New.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
York City, philadelphia, that middle
Atlantic, I think they may godown to DC but they may not.
But anyway they went bankruptin I think it was 2006, 2007,
something like that.
And the guy who came in as aturnaround CEO noticed that they
(20:07):
had been recycling since 1950.
They had been making theirtoilet paper from recycled paper
and they forgot to tell anybody.
So he built a whole rebrandingaround.
That Amazing stuff Pulled thecompany out of bankruptcy.
It became the best-sellingrecycled toilet paper in the
(20:29):
country.
And again, this is a regionalbrand.
This is not Seventh Generationor Scott.
That's got national penetration.
And I came up to tour theirplant in New Jersey years ago
and when I did I stayed with myin-laws and my mother-in-law
said I always buy Markel becauseit's recycled.
And I thought well, you alwaysbuy Markel because not only is
it recycled but it's right nextto the Scott on the shelf of the
(20:51):
store you were already in.
Because she's what I call alazy green, I divide the market
into deep greens like you and me, lazy greens like her, and then
neutral or hostile non-greens.
Non- greens.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, there's plenty of those, unfortunately, that
are making their voices known atthis exact time when we're
recording this there are, butthey're a small minority.
I think they have a lot ofpoints and not that much reach.
I agree.
I agree the plant was aninteresting experience, I'm sure
to just see the production.
I had the chance to go toJakarta last year with Asia
(21:28):
Pulvin Paper and see theirproduction and talk about their
sustainability plan and howthey're growing and it's pretty
amazing how it all workstogether there.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
There are examples everywhere you look, in any
industry.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, yeah, couldn't agree more with you there.
Now, you know, when we weretalking prior to the, prior to
this conversation, we talkedabout how, you know, sarah and I
, as owners of Annie Leader, we,you know, our goal with this
goal, with SustainabilityUnveiled, is really to make that
connection to the nextgeneration or somebody who might
(22:05):
not be open to this world ofactivism, sustainable leadership
.
So, for those who areinterested in advocacy and not
necessarily starting a movementbut joining a movement, but they
really aren't sure how or whereto start, what advice do you
have for them?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Well, first of all, if you're working in the
business world, usebusiness-friendly language.
So you don't use the wordactivism, particularly because
activism those are the peoplethat are protesting their
corporate share meeting.
Those are the ones who arewriting nasty letters to the
editor about them.
That's how it's perceived.
So I use it and say goingbeyond sustainability to
(22:47):
regenerativity, and regenerativeis something that the business
world can wrap its brain around.
So and I say it's notsustainability is staying in the
same place and that's notgetting any worse, and that's a
good first step.
But that really we want to makethings better and we can.
We have that power and we seeit in my goodness.
When the UN sustainability goalswere introduced, I thought,
well, this is nice rhetoric, butnobody's going to do anything.
(23:09):
Boy, was I wrong.
Those have been markers forprogress and, oh my goodness,
just steps toward ending hunger,for example, or toward
empowering women.
I never thought I would see insome of these countries.
And it's become mainstream.
(23:29):
And you know, it's just mindblowing how far we've come, how
now, when I started withenvironmental work, we were so
fringy and now, as I said, yousee Fortune 50 companies having
these discussions, not justhaving these discussions, but
having these departments.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I thought when I started this work.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I might get consulting gigs with companies
like that, but they all havetheir own staff.
They don't need me.
The smaller companies, the oneswith 10 employees, they need me
.
They don't have a full-timesustainability person and they
don't necessarily have themindset or the resources to do
some of the things that the bigcompanies are doing, and so for
them you have to go very bottomline, because it's their money
you're dealing with.
(24:06):
It's not just the company'smoney, it's totally intertwined.
So you have to really look atwhat are the things you can do.
That's going to have a paybackof two months or five months.
Start with those things andthen, as they gradually come
along I mean my own journey.
I became a vegetarian in 1973.
I joined my first food co-op in1975.
(24:28):
I started my first real organicgarden I won't count the one I
had in Brooklyn, that was 1982.
So, step by step, and now I canactually talk on a deep level.
I've spoken at something calledthe Sustainable Food Summit.
I gave a keynote there.
Familiar with that, yeah, yeah.
So that's my journey.
(24:48):
In that particular slice hascome a long way.
But we just actually got ourfirst hybrid car three weeks ago
.
And it's I know you had justgotten it the first time we met.
So how has it been?
It's been great.
I really like it and it handlesway better than our 2012 Honda
(25:10):
that we still have.
But this is the first new carwe've bought since 2005 and in
2000, no 2004.
And at that time the hybridoptions really weren't there yet
.
So it's not like we'vedeliberately bought gas cars.
It's just we inherited one carand we bought another one used
very cheap, and it's just notworked out to buy a new car.
(25:32):
But we knew all along that whenwe did buy something new, it
was going to be something muchgreener, and this is yes.
I just unplugged it shortlybefore we talked.
It was in overnight usinghousehold current.
We didn't build anythingspecial for it.
I have an extension cord thatgoes from that outlet on my
house to my driveway.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Hey, you know it works.
As we said before, we have anEV and we have solar on our roof
and we have our own chargerthat we charge, you know, the
car at night.
So you know everyone can dotheir part in some aspect.
Our big goal this year, as aside note, is to start
composting, because that's wehave the space and it's we've
talked about it, but that issomething that we are going to
(26:11):
start.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's actually really easy.
We have a three pit system.
We dig three holes and we startfilling one of them and cover
it with leaves, and then, afterseveral months, we start the
next one, and then, by the timethat next one is done, the first
one is ready to put into thegarden.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Excellent.
Well, we'll talk more off thisepisode about that.
So you can just tell me what Ineed to get and what I need to
do.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
The point where I was going with this is that all of
us can take individual steps.
One of the things that I'mreally concerned about is the
way we squander water, andthat's unlike the issue with oil
, which is mostly a bigcorporate use and we individual
householders are really a minorpart of it.
That doesn't mean we shouldn'tdo our part.
I have solar on my roof too.
We have our organic garden andall the rest of it, but
(26:56):
especially in the Northeast, weare trained from a very early
age Like when we brush our teeth, we turn the water on full.
We leave it running threeminutes.
We waste I don't know fivegallons of water Every time we
brush our teeth.
I brush my teeth Like I live inthe California drought.
I turn the water on to wet mytoothbrush just a trickle, turn
(27:16):
it off again, add the toothpaste, brush my teeth, turn it on
another trickle to rinse thetoothbrush.
You know and I'm usingteaspoons and I think water is a
very, very undervalued resourcebecause most of us don't
realize that we're even payinganything for it.
What we're paying is very, verylittle, and so if every person
(27:38):
listening to this call brushyour teeth that way, wash your
hands on that principle, didwhatever you're doing with water
that way watered your garden inthe morning and evening, when
more of the water stays in theground.
The impact would be enormous.
I don't think there would be aCalifornia drought if everybody
in this country was doing that.
No, I think that's great.
(27:59):
Yeah, so many different.
Every just think creativelyabout how we use resources.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I mean my son this morning reminded me that I had
the water on for our sink but inmy defense I was cleaning out a
pot and letting water go inthere.
I'm sure you've seen that withyour kids and letting water go
in there.
But you know, it might even Imean I'm sure you've seen that
with your kids.
I know your kids are adults nowbut I'm sure the work that
you've done, not just personallybut professionally, has also
(28:27):
transcended into you know, thework that your, what your kids
are doing.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, they both have quite a bit of activity in the
social change world, and mydaughter actually works for a
effective altruism company andmy younger one teaches music in
public schools.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, good for him.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's a different kind .
Speaker 1 (28:49):
As a former teacher as my husband likes to say, I
retired 10 years ago but assomeone who spent 10 and a half
years in the school system, Iknow what he's going through and
what he's gone through as ateacher, they actually use them
pronouns.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
They don't go by he, they go by they them.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Okay, I'm sorry about that.
Yes, thank you for correctingme.
I appreciate that.
Now you've been at this fordecades, what keeps you going?
What keeps you going to thatnext project, working with that
next company?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I am fundamentally wired to be optimistic, I think,
and I've done some things tobuild that up.
You know you can be optimisticand still get totally sunk, but
for one thing, I do a gratitudejournal every single day and I
post it publicly on Facebook.
So I am accountable to my fans.
I have to find something to begrateful for every single day,
(29:43):
even the hard days, like the daymy stepfather was hit by a
distracted driver and killed.
So that day's journey is allabout what I had learned from
him in 50 years of knowing him.
Wow, you know, and it was ahard day.
It was the hard day whenJustice Kavanaugh was confirmed.
I wrote about the movement thattried to stop that confirmation
(30:03):
.
So if I can't find somethingdirect, I can find something
indirect like that, and I'vebeen doing it.
It's coming up on seven years,another month and seven years
that I've been doing this everysingle day.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's incredible.
Yeah, that is absolutelyincredible.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And how has it?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
really changed.
I mean, I'm sure it impacts youknow the people that read it,
but really how has it?
Has it impacted you putting allof this out there?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Very deeply.
Uh, because now I spend my dayslooking for things to be
grateful about, so I havesomething for my audience and I
find them and I feel like it'smade me a better person.
I've had a private gratitudepractice and happiness practice
for decades.
I made a decision in theeighties to have a happy life
and I always refer to that asthe best decision I ever made.
(30:52):
So I look at the world from apositive lens and doing the work
that led to the book and thespeaking and the consulting
really helped with that.
Also because I'm reading stufflike what you put out, what
Triple Pundit puts out.
It's all the good things goingon that we don't see in our
mainstream news reports andthank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Well, thank you for reading us, thank you for doing
what you do.
Well, thank you for reading us.
You know we want to make theworld aware of, you know, some
of the smaller stories ordifferent stories that they're
not going to be able to see.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
And you know, really hone in on those special
projects too, yeah, and some ofthem turn out to be big stories
Arab Spring, for example.
I mean the idea that a movementthat was really totally
nonviolent could overthrow whatwas it?
Four governments within a fewmonths.
It's just mind blowing.
It is more current than I am onthe stats of like how much
(32:01):
solar and wind and geothermaland small scale hydro have
pushed out the oil and the gasand the coal.
It's a real turnaround.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
It's and people don't realize this too that the state
of Texas and what they havedone in their clean energy
infrastructure it's surpassingso many other states, and when
you think of Texas, you think ofbig oil.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
So there's yeah, there's a lot of places where
this is about that, and China.
China has the most coal plants,I think, of any country in the
world, and they're building more, but they've also so much moved
toward wind and solar and thevehicle fleet.
And this was really goodbecause, like the first time I
went to China in 2016,.
And this was really goodbecause, the first time I went
to China in 2016, the air was sobad in the cities we were in
(32:44):
and I was there again last yearin an admittedly much more rural
area, but rural by Chinesestandards, which means there's
only 8 million people instead of24 in the big city.
But the air quality in Kunmingwas not bad and I think part of
the reason is the huge shift toelectric vehicles over there.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
No, I couldn't agree more.
Well, so many lessons have comeout of this conversation
already.
I really want to look ahead nowand what excites you the most
about the future ofsustainability and advocacy.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Wow, big question.
Well, first of all, I'dencourage people to go to my
website,goingbeyondsustainabilitycom to
find out some of the things thatI've already gotten involved
with, but also I'm thinking veryseriously about finding someone
like Third Act or AARP topartner with a book on being
(33:43):
activists in your 60s and beyondor if it's AARP, it'll be in
your 50s and beyond, and I havemy own experience to draw on,
but I'm actually the secondyoungest person in the core of
our immigration justice groupand the youngest is my wife,
who's six months younger than Iam.
Also, I'm actually the secondyoungest person in the core of
our immigration justice groupand the youngest is my wife,
(34:06):
who's six months younger than Iam, and I have been to 200th
birthday parties for people whowere still activists on their
centennial birthday Wow, so Ihave potentially 30 more years
to do this, which is amazing.
That's exciting, and what alsoexcites me is how far we've come
.
I was born in 1956.
Not only were South Africa andwhat was then called Rhodesia,
(34:28):
now called Zimbabwe, totallysegregated, but half of the
United States was totallysegregated, segregated, but half
of the United States wastotally segregated.
Women if they had a job outsidethe home, they were nurses,
maids, teachers, and that waspretty much it.
Secretaries that's secretaries.
Yeah, I knew I was forgettingone, so that's a huge shift.
(34:51):
People of color weremarginalized in ways that they
are no longer.
There's still lots and lots ofwork to be done.
We have not eliminated any ofthe isms, but one of the you
know, one of the platforms thatI stand on is some of the ones
you'd expect, like catastrophicclimate change into planetary
balance, but also othering intoequity, really making that
(35:16):
commitment to bring everybodyalong and not push people down
because of what they look likeor who they sleep with or
whatever.
And then the other two are warinto peace, which is a big, big
jump and one that we've got like10,000 years of bad history to
overcome.
But there's also been many,many successes in that.
(35:38):
And when I say war, I includeother kinds of violence too,
like domestic violence is a war.
It's a war on one person?
Yes, it is.
So there's lots of work to bedone and I am not going to live
to do it all, and I am alsoencouraged that places you would
not expect, like a certain very, very large retail store chain
(36:02):
based in Bentonville, arkansas,named Walmart, has probably done
more for sustainable supplychains than I have done in all
my years of speaking andconsulting and writing, because
they demanded of their suppliersand they are not a tree hugger
company.
In fact, I have some seriousissues with some of their
(36:23):
policies and I'm not a customer,but I really applaud what they
have done on moving the businesscase forward, for doing the
right thing on the environment,and I actually tried to get the
statistic updated just this week.
I wrote to their corporatepress office and, unless they
(36:44):
answered this morning, I haven'tgotten an answer yet.
But I asked them how muchorganic food are you selling
these days?
Because the last time I had astatistic for that, I had to
extrapolate it and do the mathmyself.
From some other statistics Ifound but it came to $15 million
a year that they were sellingorganic foods and this is like
10 years ago and it was actually.
(37:04):
Was it million or billion?
Maybe it was billion, itmust've been billion.
Anyway, they were selling moreorganic food than Whole Foods.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I remember we talked about this before too.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause I had forgotten, which
was a staggering statistic.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Staggering and the really interesting thing to me
is the people who buy theirorganic food in Walmart are
people who've probably never setfoot in a Whole Foods in their
lives and are never going to.
So they doubled the market, notby selling more stuff to the
same people, but by selling topeople who didn't think they
needed it before.
That's great, and they've alsotheir own.
(37:44):
They're a real poster child forthe idea that you can save
enormous amounts of money bydoing the green stuff.
But greening their truck fleet,greening their stores, has paid
off hugely in cost savings forthem, as well as in propaganda
points for a company that sorelyneeds them because they're not
well regarded on labor or storesiting or a bunch of other stuff
.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, no, definitely there.
Well, I have thoroughly enjoyedour conversation.
I'm going to give you the floorfor any last minute.
You know lessons or pieces ofadvice that you want to leave
our viewers with and we willhave a link to on the podcast
page, to Shell's webpage, alongwith a book.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Right, it's goingbeyondsustainabilitycom.
And the advice?
First of all, know that oneperson can do a difference.
Make a difference, but knowthat that difference is going to
be much amplified if you findother people to work with.
Know that you have to targetyour message to the people
you're talking to.
So we've talked a lot in thisconversation about how to talk
(38:44):
in the corporate world aboutthese things.
In a talk I do called MakingGreen Sexy, which is about the
B2C business to consumer side, Italk about the difference in
what kind of messaging you woulddo.
Just as you would not put thesame ad in the National Enquirer
and the New Yorker magazine youdon't want to give.
The same message points to thedeep greens, the lazy greens and
(39:06):
the non-greens, and certainlynot to the anti-greens.
So, like the deep greens, yousell the green stuff, and to the
anti-greens, you sell thepersonal comfort, the cost
savings, the personal benefits.
And there's a lot more of thisin the book Guerrilla Marketing
to Heal the World, on thewebsite and I'm also anybody
listening here if you tell methat you heard Jessica's show, I
(39:29):
will give anybody a 15-minuteconsult, but if you mention that
, I'll make it 30.
And that 30 minutes is enoughto really get down and deep into
what your company can be doingand what your organization.
Where are the opportunities,where is the intersection with
your strengths?
And that's a pretty powerfulthing.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
It is.
It is, and I hope people dotake advantage of that.
Well, again, thank you forbeing on with us.
I hope this is not our lastconversation.
I'd love to have you back on inthe future.
That would be a pleasure, yeah,in the next 60 seconds, ask
yourself how can I contribute toa brighter, more sustainable
future, not just personally, butprofessionally?
(40:09):
Let's embark on this journeytogether and shape the landscape
of sustainable leadership fortomorrow.
Take the first step now andmake a commitment to lead with
sustainability in mind.
That's all for this episode ofSustainability Unveiled.
Join us next time as wecontinue exploring the forefront
of sustainable businesspractices.
(40:30):
Until then, stay informed, staysustainable.
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