August 16, 2025 • 54 mins
Engineering leader Manju Abraham shares proven lessons from NetApp, Delphix, and HPE on how to lead organizational change that sticks. Discover why most transformations fail, how to build trust and emotional safety, and practical steps for co-creating vision, empowering champions, and turning change into culture. A must-listen for engineering managers driving real results.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Effective Engineering Manager podcast.
Today we have an amazing guest, Manju Abraham.
Manju has spent over 30 years leading engineering teams through big transformations at companies like NetApp, Delphix, and most recently, Hewlett Packard Enterprise.
Manju actually started as a rocket scientist in India before moving to the United States in the 90s.
(00:26):
Manju's magic power is driving change, breaking down silos, modernizing engineering practices, and getting teams to deliver faster and more reliably while taking care of people.
At Delphix and NetApp, Manju tightened execution, streamlined operations, and gave global teams the confidence to move faster.
At HPE, Manju pulled together siloed storage teams, stabilized legacy products, and drove the transformation to launch a brand new enterprise product despite budget cuts and hardware shortages.
(00:59):
Manju, welcome. So what would you like to talk about today?
Thank you, Slava and Adam. Thank you for having me here.
So today I would like to talk about something that's very close to my heart because it gives me a lot of energy to drive real change.
So driving real change, what most leaders get wrong and what actually works.
(01:22):
So that's the topic and as you described, I've had a long career and I've learned many lessons along the way.
So today I'll share some of those lessons on this particular topic.
That's great. And why is driving change effectively so important?
So this matters now even more than ever because the world is shifting so fast.
(01:47):
But most organizations are not keeping up to the change needed to enable the teams and to grow the business.
So the hard truth, if we were to call it out, is that nearly 70% of the change efforts fail.
They stall out, they meet resistance or they look successful on the slide deck, but never really reach the hearts and habits of the people doing the work.
(02:09):
That means it doesn't continue forward. Right. And failed change is not just neutral.
It's expensive because it costs time, it costs trust and it costs momentum.
So we are entering a time of unprecedented technological disruption.
There's AI, there's remote work, hybrid work, and then shrinking budgets and shifting expectations.
(02:31):
So but then still some timeless leadership truths still hold good as we lead teams and organizations through change.
So it's critical that we share and discuss that with engineering leaders to enable them to be more effective.
That's great. And Adam, I knew any thoughts on this?
(02:54):
Well, I think, Manju, I think you hit it on the head.
And the fact that so many efforts for organizational transformational change doesn't stick.
And it's almost like playing the stock market because, you know, you kind of know what the outcome you want.
But a variety of things, including luck, where you are in the timelines of your organization or your team or project or all that,
(03:19):
you know, play major factors that you sometimes can't even control or estimate.
And so having an idea for change, something that organically one is great, but it has all those factors to work against as well.
And it's great to hear about what your experience has been with that.
Right. So we'll get into that.
(03:44):
Yes. So and so, Manju, maybe we can start with what is the biggest misconception about the change in your experience?
Yeah. So the biggest myth I think leaders believe about change is this.
And if I press in the right data and I make a strong business case that people will just follow.
(04:08):
But that's really not how change works. Change does not happen because people understand the logic.
It happens because they believe in the leader. They trust the vision.
They have to feel emotionally safe to try something new and believe in it.
So you don't lead transformation by managing tasks. You lead it by reshaping beliefs.
(04:35):
That's good. And how how do you do this? How do you reshape the beliefs?
So there are many aspects to this. Right. I do not.
You know, the way I've managed to succeed in doing this, I feel, is because I do not treat change like a side project.
Many a time, that's, that's what I've seen leaders try to do.
I have to, I tend to treat it like a full system rewiring to a new way of operating, of bringing the energy, belief,
(05:04):
bringing goals and systems and above all, a culture to bring about the change to make it sustained.
So change does not begin with strategy. It begins with belief.
If leaders want to move fast, they must build that trust. And if they want innovation, they must create that safety.
(05:26):
And transformation is not just a process design. It indeed is an emotional design.
That's what I've seen in throughout my career. And when done right, change does not just feel like an upheaval.
It will feel like forward motion. So we need heart, but we also need method.
And that's what I want to share today, that practical playbook that I've used.
(05:51):
Well, that's great. Sounds like quite a lot to cover. Let's, let's dive in.
So talking about methods and frameworks that I've used, right.
So the approach I consistently use to lead that lasting systemic change is, you know, it's from my, my own experience,
through the mistakes I've made, frankly, right. It's, it is when I started studying human psychology
(06:16):
that I could bring about positive and active change that lasted.
So it's about blending structure and order, bringing that psychology, then role modeling actively,
and then taking on that cultural ownership. So I tried and tested my own different methods,
learned from mistakes I've made, and that was in my own style, being who I am, right.
(06:41):
And over the years, I've learned and improved. So there is always that unique touch of Manju in how I do it, of course.
But I could never really explain the how when people asked because I just do it.
That's what happens with many of us. So what I've done is reviewed some of the existing frameworks that we read about, right.
And it kind of makes it easier for me to explain. So I could see how I brought together instinctively,
(07:06):
you know, the most effective elements of say, Carter's 8-step, then Atkar model, then SMART goals,
and also tactical empathy from Chris Voss. So that's, I can bring all of that into my style of operation.
So on top of those, if you put your own touch, your own style into those frameworks and tune how you make it work,
(07:31):
that can lead to good success. So that would be a suggestion that I can make here.
So how do you use these frameworks, right? There are, you know, so if you look at Carter's 8, those 8 steps.
So I kind of live this from creating the urgency and forming those coalitions to sustaining acceleration and institutionalizing change.
So that kind of maps into a lot of what I do. And if you look at Atkar, it is about awareness.
(07:58):
It's about desire and knowledge, of course, the ability and then reinforcing it.
So this reminds us that you do not just announce change. You enable it, you track it, and you support it.
And that takes your presence. And we've all learned about SMART goals, right?
So to make change, I ask every leader that is leading each of these changes across the different initiatives to define the goals that are SMART, right?
(08:27):
Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound. And I'm sure all of you agree, it is not easy to do.
But the more you think about it, the more you evaluate it, and the more we brainstorm and kind of challenge each other about it
and think about the bigger goals that we have, that's when we will, that clarity will come through.
(08:49):
So I coach my leaders and get them to kind of work through this and challenge them to bring that clarity.
And the other part, I referred to that a little earlier. It's very interesting.
If you've not read Chris Voss's book on Never Split the Difference, he happens to be a, what do you call, hostage negotiator.
(09:10):
And he talks about tactical empathy, and the power of creating what he calls "that's right" moment.
And, you know, it's that negotiation framework, it maps also to my style of leading change, because it brings about trust.
It applies emotional intelligence, and it also brings a clarity of purpose at that moment, which gets that belief and buy-in happen very quickly.
(09:35):
So in leading change, I've found that people will not buy into your strategy unless they feel heard, that they feel respected, and that they feel safe.
Because change is never comfortable, right? So they are, "What is going to happen to me? And what does this mean for me?"
So, you know, instead of putting solutions in, I bring them in. I include them.
(09:56):
That inclusion really changes the dynamics very, very quickly.
And so I ask, "What's hard about this? Where do we keep getting stuck?"
Even if you have the answers, you're talking through it because you'll get much deeper insights.
And it's best to identify those champions and owners, and then give them those elevated roles and positions because it's an opportunity for them to grow.
(10:21):
And then at the same time, work with them to help them grow, get more of those ideas on the problems and those possible solutions.
And many leaders have seen that, you know, top-down command and control model, which may have worked earlier, but they are not getting the full solution, and they will not get the full buy-in.
Instead, give your leaders and your teams the support. You give them the air cover. You give them visibility and recognition for the good work.
(10:48):
Things will last, and the change will happen very, very quickly as well.
So when someone says, "That's right. That's exactly that issue that we were facing," that's the moment you see that the belief has started to shift.
And only then can we move toward transformation, not as a mandate, but as a shared movement.
(11:10):
So being inclusive, co-creating solutions and plans will have that lasting effect.
This is where they take ownership, and this helps us move at the speed with that buy-in.
Otherwise, it's like they'll do it, you know, Adam, you were saying earlier, they'll do it as long as you're around.
But when they buy into it, and then they take it to their teams, and their teams believe it, and then you role model that behavior, this gets adopted much better, and it'll last.
(11:41):
That's my experience.
Rondo, I have one question for you.
Sorry, you want to go ahead?
Yeah, go ahead. I was going to ask Adam what he thinks.
First of all, I think you articulate that very well, so thank you.
You started by saying it starts with a belief, and then you mentioned sort of towards the end there, emotional intelligence,
(12:04):
and connecting a belief that you as a leader feel is the right change, affecting that change, getting people to buy in,
but also tying it to awareness of whether they are believing in you.
And that's where emotional intelligence and the connection that you have with your people comes in.
(12:25):
Can you talk a little bit about how you've had success in that phase, and just getting that belief through that first step?
So when people feel heard, when they feel respected, and they feel that you are bringing these changes in for a particular purpose,
bigger than all of us, but at the same time something as a common goal that we can work towards in a safe environment,
(12:51):
where they are going to learn, they are going to get recognized and rewarded,
and we are going to achieve something together that's better than what was there earlier.
That's how you build that trust. And when you role model that behavior and reiterate it consistently, people see that.
(13:13):
And that's when they will follow, or they become leaders and take the rest of the team along as well.
That is how it gets taken through the ranks and becomes a movement.
I think that's such a great point, Manju, and that's something to not be overlooked,
because I think so many times leaders just pass through that step.
(13:34):
They think that even if their intention is good, that the change that they want to affect is the right thing,
connecting it to bringing everybody along and making sure everybody wants the same thing too, I think is really important.
I think that's a really important piece for our listeners to take away.
Just connect that to what you're doing across your organizations.
(13:57):
I agree. And I think my own experience in this was that the team,
the role of the leader driving the change is not to push it through,
but for the change to be successful, make it team's change.
It's the team's desire, team's movement, team's belief.
(14:23):
Like you mentioned in that book, I read it, they never split the change.
As a leader, you have to get to the point where everyone says, "Yes, that's the right thing to do.
Yes, that's right. That's what we want to do as a team."
They all become champions.
Correct. Until the team wants it and the team desires to have it,
(14:49):
it's always going to be pulling the people behind you, which is not what you want.
Sometimes you may have to pull until they see that, and then you're learning along the way also.
It is being consistent in your belief, but at the same time, when you're listening,
because they bring up such great details, because they're the ones living it.
(15:14):
Even if you have the vision, getting the vision aligned and then taking them along that way.
So how do you align everyone?
Let's say you start with nothing, right?
Change is needed. You already know this.
The team doesn't know. How do you bring everyone on board?
(15:38):
Maybe give some examples.
I can do that. There's a set of steps that you can follow.
This again is a compilation of the Carter State and the Adcar model, all of those.
The first thing would be, it usually happens when you, suppose you're taking on a new organization,
(16:01):
and there are a lot of things that you immediately see during your first few days, few weeks as you evaluate.
And so there are certain, so you say, OK, these are some of the changes that you need.
You have a general idea about the vision that you have for the organization, all of that.
But then you have to definitely assess the readiness and the context, right?
So before creating that sense of urgency and all that is necessary, assess whether the environment is truly ready.
(16:25):
Are the right stakeholders aligned to your vision towards the changes needed?
Are there invisible tensions, competing initiatives or fatigue from prior attempts?
How do you know it has not been tried before and why did it fail if it was tried?
So I've had many instances like that. So that investigation and assessment has always helped me.
(16:46):
And change, it will only land well when there is space for it to root.
So begin by scanning the landscape for both opportunity and for assistance.
So listen, learn, figure out and plan to address those gaps.
So the next thing would be, how do you create that urgency and surface the truth?
(17:08):
This is where that Carter's principle of urgency comes in.
But that one paired with tactical empathy, like Chris Voss says, begin again with those listening tours.
Once you have the strategy listening tours, OK, what is, ask them, what is hard about this?
Where are we getting stuck? Like I said earlier, right? But do not rush into those solutions.
(17:31):
Many a time, we already have done this before somewhere else, but this is a different organization, different set of people, different culture.
So you have to evaluate all of that. Even if the challenge across different companies seem the same at a high level, how you implement it can be quite different.
So do not rush into solutions, but look for those blockers.
Is there burnout? Is there budget constraints that you have to prepare for? Is there change fatigue?
(17:55):
And when people feel heard again, they will lean in. Be honest, be authentic.
Above all, that's most important. All along, being authentic and being yourself, right?
If you're inconsistent, that will be seen right away. There goes the trust.
So show your belief in them and in the vision that you're thinking of.
The next thing would be to build that coalition and identify champions.
(18:20):
There are always fantastic champions. So you have to identify those formal influences, maybe your senior directors or senior leaders.
And also there are informal influences. These may be individual contributors, but they are the believers.
And then there are the skeptics. You have to be aware of those also.
(18:42):
And then also the doers, right? So involve them early and then let them shape the message.
You listen to the skeptics. You know what to prepare for them.
So use that calibrated questions along the way. How can we do this?
That's how you unlock that ownership from their end.
Otherwise, they're doing it for the person who's asking top down. That won't work. It won't sustain.
(19:08):
So what happens here is their belief then becomes your amplifier.
That's very, very important to think about, right? Their belief becomes your amplifier.
Next would be, I truly believe in this, co-creating that vision. Co-creating.
It's not something that you write and give a slide deck on. You have to co-create.
(19:31):
So I usually just start with a one-liner to suggest and start the discussions going.
But then the rest of the vision, a clear, repeatable vision, we co-create it.
So because clarity, that is the antidote for chaos.
So you bring your leaders and champions together to define a vision that then resonates emotionally and practically because they have bought into it.
(19:58):
They own it because they have a hand in making that happen.
And then the biggest thing that has helped me again, like I said earlier, is in defining the SMART goals.
It's very hard to do, but as you work together, I have them put together the vision, the goals, the success criteria.
(20:19):
I'm kind of imagining that one-pager, the template that I always have, and then the next steps and kind of plan timelines.
So when you put that together, that one-pager becomes an all-star.
Why are we doing this? What does success look like? And how will we get there?
That becomes very clear. And when they write it, they own it also.
(20:42):
And I find so much joy when that happens and to see them continue to take that forward.
So then you make the ownership visible and safe.
So the name of the leader and the top architects and all of the team is there on that one slider too.
That's one piece of it. So empower the teams, not with pressure, but provide them air cover, provide them with budget and support.
(21:11):
Provide them clarity whenever things change around you, which will happen, and also provide them with autonomy.
So that one slider, like I said, use that one, because then they will continue to update you in the format that you expect and that everybody else uniformly understands.
Then use those traffic light dashboards. Makes it easier. They made the plans. Are they staying to plans?
(21:34):
What are the risks and what else? Where do you need help? It's easy to do that.
And then you can follow those rituals to kind of reinforce direction and retread that.
It's this one that becomes easy to communicate, and then they will continue to communicate also to all those around.
So when ownership is visible, accountability also becomes natural.
(21:58):
Then comes that reinforcement, right? That is through setting that rhythm, setting the expectations and recognition.
So what do you do there? Because you're making progress and celebrating those milestones, the belief settles even more.
Yes, we thought this would be hard, but now see, we've done this. We've done this.
(22:21):
And that joy, many a time, you know, I've had many leaders come and say, "Manju, I wasn't a believer, but now I believe."
So it's wonderful to kind of hear that, right? Because they're doing it themselves, which they didn't think was possible.
So establishing those operating rhythms, this is a rigor that you can bring in.
So I would have regular sync-ups that, you know, getting updates on it, the milestone reviews, and then giving shout-outs when things are going well.
(22:51):
So you recognize good behavior or activities that happen, peer recognition, and you don't recognize just the outcome, right?
So and change takes when people feel seen, valued, and connected to that bigger picture.
So there are a few more steps, like, you know, how do you institutionalize this? It is through culture and by role modeling.
(23:12):
So you have to make these activities that you're doing, the change you're bringing in, into the regular mode of how people work, how people talk, the language they use, and how they grow.
So some of these new behaviors, you add that into your own boding process itself.
So new ones coming in, learn that. And their bodies will keep teaching them, "Hey, this is important. And this is important for our leaders.
(23:37):
This is how we're going to do it. This is how." So it becomes a continued reiteration, right?
And then you bring this into performance conversations. It is valued. It's recognized.
You went above and beyond in how you made this happen. And then it gets into the team norms.
When the leaders are accountable across the board on different initiatives, they'll take that forward.
(23:59):
So you role model that behavior and you show up consistently as a leader.
I have to reiterate that consistency, right? Because your presence there signals what's real.
I wouldn't miss any of those meetings, even though it is weekly sync-ups.
And whether it is going well or whether it's not, it is giving me an idea.
(24:20):
When do I need to push on the pedal? When do I take my foot off the pedal also? Right?
Those are all needed. Then the team knows you're there. You are covering for them and you will help them succeed.
So when the team sees how leaders show up, the culture begins to shift and things happen very, very quickly.
So that's how you then sustain, you adjust, you keep listening. And then, you know, you stay agile without losing that direction.
(24:45):
So leadership is not just setting the course. It's steering through each of the waves.
That's how when you stay engaged, that's what will happen.
So this is what I've followed at every company that I've been in.
So HP, NetApp, Delphix and HP as well. It works because it starts with belief, builds through trust, and it delivers with rigor.
(25:11):
So it's inclusive, it aligns them to a bigger purpose, and then it builds systems that last.
That's pretty cool. Adam, what do you think?
Again, you articulate that very well. And clearly you've done this many times.
(25:32):
And this is great that you're able to bring this insight.
I think two things that stuck out to me. First of all, you mentioned autonomy.
I think that is such an underappreciated skill characteristic of a good leader.
Because I know my own history, like every time I've wanted to bring about change, having the autonomy to do that,
(26:01):
and the belief from my leadership, whether it's explicit or just culturally there,
has really been the impetus that has enabled whatever belief that I have to move through.
So I think that that's key. The second thing, and this is like a question to you, Manju,
because I don't know how, this is something I've struggled with, when you are presenting an idea for change,
(26:31):
even though you might have others in the room, you talk about building a coalition of people that work with you and support the vision,
even when you have someone who is nodding their head in agreement and they may genuinely believe that,
oftentimes there is skepticism, there is fear, there is "this is not my idea, so I might support it in principle, but I'm going to be passive."
(26:57):
And then of course there's political and cultural things within an organization that also help fester that even further.
What success have you had in helping bring believers along, but really bringing them into the picture
and making them be more active than passive?
(27:19):
Yeah, actually I think I should talk about some of the common mistakes, let me put it that way.
That will cover some of the questions that you have.
So the most common mistakes that people make is focusing on the process before the people part of it,
(27:42):
or this is where we talked about starting with belief and not just the steps.
If you're coming with an idea and instead I usually come with, "Hey, do you see this problem? How does it affect you?"
I want to understand that and that's how I learn and I can sense their frustration at themselves,
because whatever we notice, they are experiencing it far worse.
(28:06):
It's just that they don't know whether they can bring about change, will they be allowed to bring about change,
will they be given the funds and the time while everybody is pushing for a particular product or something?
So that air cover that you provide.
Because if you're doing something that is valuable and good, people would have seen it and they'll follow.
So the second point is, it's not about just redesigning workflows or assigning tasks and creating the documentation.
(28:35):
So that's what I meant to say there.
The second thing is, they assume that there's alignment and keeping quiet or so silence means agreement.
It doesn't even mean clarity or commitment.
That is usually the challenge.
So that is a problem.
Just because no one objects to it because you are coming from a senior role, it doesn't mean that it's going to work.
(29:01):
So you just have to really test the clarity, not silence.
That's where those discussions come in to be really useful.
So and the other part is, I was talking to Slava about this earlier.
You cannot move everyone at once.
And you also have to focus on that middle because you will have usually like the, what's the chart called?
(29:27):
You know, you may have the bell curve, right?
So you may have 10 percent that is the champions.
These are the early adopters.
And so for everything, there are these early adopters.
At the same time, there will be the 10 percent of those loud resistors, right?
The mistake that many people make is they just listen to the 10 percent adopters and then waste a lot of time on the loud resistors, right?
(29:53):
You're wasting your energy if you're focusing on that.
You have to listen to them.
But then more than that, it is on the 70 percent or 80 percent in the middle that you have to focus on.
That is when the energy shifts.
That is where scale lives as well, right?
You have the adopters, early adopters, that is well and good.
Continue to tap into that.
But then, you know, the 70 to 80 percent in the middle.
(30:16):
Do not waste your energy on the loud resistors, but talk to them, listen to that.
And then when you're consistently giving them the reason and spending a little time and then moving on, they will shift as well.
And the other part is, you know, many a time you have middle managers, ICs, many informal leaders.
(30:38):
If you spent and focused your time in identifying them, they will soon start repeating your message.
And the noise will be drowned out because there is a shift that has already happened.
The larger community will start modeling the new behavior.
That is when culture starts to move as well.
Does that answer your question?
(31:00):
You know, so this is where, you know, the people who resist, it is because one is either they care and they have seen challenges that have not been addressed.
So it's good to listen to them.
And then you can see, is that really a challenge that exists right now?
How do we address it?
Consider, evaluate, and that is part of the assessment that we do.
(31:22):
And when they feel heard and then they see that the larger organization is shifting, they will tend to follow also.
If there are people who are resisting for the sake of it, you have other means that you need to take action on also.
Right. But I would say 99 percent is not going to do that.
Many of these resistors, because they are worried about something.
(31:45):
If you listen to them and they feel heard and those concerns are addressed or you give an explanation for it and say that I will watch out for it and go back to that, then it will be fine.
We've always, we'll always have resistors.
But then the energy you bring into it as a leader, the support you provide to the teams, the momentum they see from all of that, that will shift everybody to go along.
(32:13):
That's a great, that's actually a very great perspective because if you think about it, oftentimes it is when you start to get more people in the room on board that even people that are a little bit more hesitant to join, even if they believe in it, will just kind of, you know, they'll feel that energy, like you said.
(32:34):
So I think that's a great point.
And when you measure it, when you keep measuring and you see the results, the momentum continues to build.
I can tell you it's always been really fast what happens there.
And I've been very lucky to have good leaders that I could pick and choose to be the champions and their role model.
And then, you know, it continues down.
(32:56):
And I've been lucky to have really good leaders who gave me the autonomy.
And I totally agree with you, Adam, it is when your autonomy is taken away that you feel that exhaustion.
I wouldn't want to do that to people reporting to me.
And they feel that as well and giving them that autonomy.
But at the same time, you know, it's about if there is the buck stops with me, they have to feel that.
(33:22):
I'll try things out.
I'll take risks.
But then Manju is going to take accountability for that.
That gives them even more of, OK, I can experiment.
I can try these.
That is when even greater things happen at even bigger pace because they would not have dared do that otherwise.
So that's the kind of support that you can provide.
Right. So there are many more of these kinds of missteps or mistakes that leaders make that I can kind of list out because I've seen that happen.
(33:52):
And sometimes I've learned from it as well.
I've seen it where, you know, they design change top down.
I'm totally, really against it because if you're not listening to feedback without that feedback loop, so you have to create a culture where you're seeking feedback.
And then, you know, that that kind of builds safety as well.
Right. And the other part is, you know, co-creation, like I talked about earlier, that creates commitment, that inclusion does that.
(34:20):
So not coming top down for change is going to be important.
So it has to be a mix of both.
Right. You may come up with something. This is the vision. This is where we want to go.
Now, how do you do it? Let that be bottom up and we meet in the middle and then you be that strong leader for it.
Right. Then not to confuse urgency with pressure.
(34:41):
Urgency should unify the team.
Not exhaust them. Right. Burnout.
Most people are not afraid of work, hard work.
What they are afraid of is a lack of autonomy.
That is when burnout happens, in my belief, in my experience.
So if you give them autonomy, people will do whatever it takes.
(35:02):
And that is so much fun to watch and to support.
And the other part is, you know, if you tend to reward the delivery but ignore the behavior, then you're not going to be able to change the culture.
There are different ways in getting to a delivery.
But if you're not changing culture and behavior the right way, then it's not going to sustain.
(35:26):
You had that question earlier as well. Right.
And, you know, don't just look at metrics.
You have not just the dashboards.
You have to look at how the human beings are responding to it.
What's the emotion behind it?
Where is the passion and energy in each of these?
That's something you have to watch out for as well.
Yes, I really like what you are saying about bringing the team along.
(35:51):
And I really like this notion of co-creation and co-ownership.
And I'm saying this because I've seen too many times when leaders come and just make an order.
This is the change and this is how it's going to be.
Go.
And I think many times it was even funny in a sort of a sad way because they come, they order, they disappear, and then nothing happens.
(36:23):
Right.
Because they think just because the order was given, it was cascaded top down, from the top to the down, and then nothing happened.
I've seen that so many times too. Exactly right.
Who is driving the change, right?
And who is doing it?
You have to create the structure.
(36:46):
Those cases just looked like it was some sort of a flash of light somewhere in the distance and it disappeared.
And I think one of the things, which is the tactical, I think I really like your broad framework for the change.
One tactical thing which worked for me is this initial step of co-ownership and co-creation, which I think works quite well.
(37:16):
We said that it is important, you said, Manju, that it's important for the team to be heard, each member of the team to be heard.
And what I've done is, first step is usually, if it is real change we wanted or there's a need for this, there's just a simple announcement.
(37:39):
It's sort of almost like an informal, not like a big meeting and when everyone gets together, but like, Hey, folks, this is what we are thinking about.
No action items yet.
And then the next step, which I think is super critical in forming this broader middle with lesser of laggards, like on the bell curve, the people, the critics.
(38:04):
I would go through or with and go and talk to each member of the team on a one-on-one basis and give them a lot of detail.
This is what it's all about.
These are the challenges we are facing.
I give them the clarity on a one-on-one basis and ask for their feedback, their thoughts, their concerns, their ideas, considerations, fears.
(38:37):
And it's important to do this second step on a one-on-one basis because this is the platform we can be honest and be heard and they can be heard.
Because the situations when those changes like top-down changes announced in a large, all-hands meeting, if there are more than five people in that meeting, there's no chance everyone is going to be heard.
(39:02):
It takes so much longer time to go one by one on a one-on-one basis.
But when the broader consideration or broader announcements are made, first of all, the leader can accommodate all the concerns or try to address, not all of them, I don't think it's possible all the time, but address the core ones.
(39:24):
And maybe even accommodate the ideas and already accommodate the feedback.
And when the team hears this broader introduction of the change, they already can see that they've been heard.
Right.
Because each of them can recognize that, hey, I already own this, I co-own this part because I brought it up and it's there and now I feel better and safe.
(39:49):
This is being addressed.
See, the scale of change that I've been involved in is not at the team level, it's at an organizational level, hundreds of engineers kind of organization.
So I can give an example that you're asking for.
At my last organization, HP, for example, it had a brilliant team, a thousand plus engineers across the storage business unit.
(40:15):
But we were siloed, stuck in firefighting mode, unable to shift focus from existing products to focus on and deliver the strategic new multiple One.0 products that were in mind.
So then priorities were shifting constantly, releases were unpredictable.
There was a very large tech debt and then infrastructure was unstable.
So what that means is the delivery and the back-end testing, all of those mechanisms were not flowing well.
(40:42):
So then the trust in our release rhythm itself was fading.
So this was not a one problem fix.
But it was really a systemic reset that we needed to do.
So I started by aligning my teams, my direct reports, the senior directors and the directors and the architects, and then getting my peer leaders involved.
(41:03):
So that's the one-on-one at that level that I started with Slava.
And then I did not push that change top-down.
This is a solution. This is how you have to do it kind of a thing.
That's not what I wanted to do.
But we co-created a shared vision.
I brought in the challenges and people listened and then made a list of more challenges.
(41:27):
And then we figured out, OK, here are the initiatives that we have to take on.
And then we assigned owners for that.
And then my question to them was, team, what does great look like in each of these areas?
What does great look like?
That is a powerful question, actually, right?
And then we started tackling the bottlenecks in each of these.
(41:49):
And this was by the chosen team.
These are the champions, the leaders.
And these are huge opportunities for them to work across organizationally.
Because as you've seen, if you're at a manager level, senior manager, director, you get siloed.
You start looking only at yours.
But these are broad changes.
And it's such a career opportunity also to figure out that kind of impact, to work across functionals, right?
(42:13):
So then we defined the vision for each of these initiatives.
I had clear owners for it, clear success criteria and the SMART goals and the next steps and milestones.
We did that together. And the team came back with it, and I would review it, essentially, right?
And we could review it together.
Till that was settled and the team was kind of ready for it, I didn't take it to the larger organization in the all-hands or so.
(42:39):
The leaders, the engineers, architects were listening in.
But I had these owners present that and say, "This is what you're going to do."
I just gave the introduction, and then the focus was on each of them.
They own it, and they would drive that.
And that was also giving them the autonomy as well as the kind of the authority to make sure whatever is needed to happen for that, for it to continue to happen.
(43:06):
And then I would provide air cover after that, right?
And then on an ongoing basis, we would review.
So we invested in CI/CD. We re-architected the release process.
We did deep root cause analysis of repeated issues that were all getting band-aids, right?
In product as well as infrastructure.
So no more band-aids, only long-term systemic fixes.
Why? We don't want to see that happen again.
(43:28):
So that mindset set in to people.
And we kept the entire organization aligned with that one-page traffic light tracker per initiative.
And I had my chief of staff who would follow up on each of these and kind of organize these.
So it showed progress on a weekly basis.
We tracked progress against the goals and metrics that the owners themselves had defined and agreed to and were proud to show along with their teams.
(43:57):
So the results, every metric kept getting ready and good.
And with momentum, more energy comes and more enthusiasm to make that happen because they're seeing the results as well.
So the shift and the results were clear and visible, and the change, it was palpable.
So we improved release predictability, 25% to consistently on time, repeatable commit and release processes, increase infrastructure stability by 30%, reducing test times, back-end release.
(44:28):
So each of those separate initiatives, some of them had sub-initiatives also, and this became the way the organization would get structured and we would bring about change, right?
So with that foundation, part of the team could then transition over and build and deliver a brand new 1.0 scale-out enterprise product.
(44:50):
That too with less budget, on schedule, despite many external challenges as well.
So I feel really proud of that because this was being done at scale.
But to your point, Slava, I wanted to call that out, that the change, you don't need to be a VP or a manager even to bring about positive change.
It doesn't matter what level you're at. You do not have to wait for permission to start that.
(45:16):
What you have to do is just decide, today I will lead it better and I will bring others with me.
And that has been my behavior for as long as even as an individual contributor, I think, right?
So be that change catalyst to make things better.
So with that attitude, anybody can bring about that change and the same principles of bringing others along,
(45:38):
seeing where the buy-in is and where the resistance is and starting to address those.
And then communicating and including people, same principles, will continue to work.
That's really good. And I really like this image of, it sort of struck me, that when the change begins,
(46:00):
there are already owners and those owners own this change, not because they were told,
but because they know themselves that this is not the best situation and they know themselves how the best looks.
And they want to bring about this change to get to this best configuration.
(46:26):
I love it. I think it's a great idea. Cool. Adam, any thoughts?
No, I think that's great. I mean, again, you articulate this very well.
I love how you can connect it at any level. I think that's really important.
Just because you move up doesn't mean you change how you go about leadership.
It's just the scope and the context might be a little bit different.
(46:50):
Right. Yeah. And the authority that you have, what you can do to provide air cover, all of those kind of challenges you face.
So that is where autonomy, if you have, stay at that place.
Right. 100%.
If you don't, then go do your good stuff somewhere else.
Somewhere else. Exactly. It's a good sign to find another place to be productive.
(47:12):
Yep. And I think one thing we sort of touched lightly is the small part of the team that would not accept the need to move forward.
That would be maybe, you know, criticizing or dragging things back or even sabotaging sometimes or just not participating.
(47:39):
And it's always a tough question, what do we do?
Because, I mean, even if you have 95% with you, you still have 5% that are not with you.
And I think that's where we have to be. I don't know, what is the right word?
You just have to activate the majority. Yeah, you have to activate the majority.
(48:01):
I think this is a subject of one-on-one conversations with those folks and just maybe asking them to disagree and commit.
Like, "Hey, folks, I understand that you're still not 100% on board, but everyone else is on board and they are doing it.
(48:22):
And let's go and let's do it together."
And this is where I think a lot of work is happening too, because the message needs to be consistent
and it needs to be reiterated to the folks who are not 100% with you.
You need to keep at it if you want, keep convincing.
(48:47):
And maybe convincing with… How do you convince doubters? You convince them with successes.
So the momentum is, you know, that's what we need to wait for. We need to demonstrate.
So I would still say it is you have the majority with you and they will build that momentum.
(49:11):
And with most people who are resisting, there is usually a few reasons.
And you can listen to the reasons if they are to click at that well, address the ones that you can.
And the rest of it, we'll figure out as we go.
And then you keep asking them, "Is it getting better? Is that addressed at this point?
(49:33):
If it is not, then can we work through it or work around it?"
They feel heard.
Yep, good stuff.
So, Manju, that was a great discussion.
Can you please share a checklist that our listeners could start using tomorrow to drive change effectively?
(49:59):
Yeah, I can, you know, what I can condense the kind of steps that I had earlier.
These are kind of the seven or eight non-negotiables to drive lasting change, right?
So first one is start with the belief, not a plan.
You cannot manage people into change. You have to earn their trust first.
That's important.
(50:20):
Then the next one is create emotional safety.
There are many steps in creating that we talked about.
So because if your people are afraid of what the change will mean, they will not innovate.
They won't speak the truth.
So safety is a precondition for transformation.
Then make the vision that you co-created, that you built, repeatable.
(50:43):
If your team cannot articulate the why without reading a slide, then the vision is not yet embedded.
They have to be able to easily articulate that.
Then co-create those SMART goals.
So the vision you created together, the SMART goals, and, you know, bring that together.
So when it's co-created, momentum will follow.
(51:05):
So the next one is about, you know, focusing on the majority.
The middle 50, 70% also, the quiet ones, the doers,
they are the ones who will make it happen along with the early adopters.
So real shift happens when you activate the majority.
Then track progress visually and visibly.
(51:27):
It can be one sliders, it can be traffic lights, it doesn't need a lot of data and effort.
It's even more easier now with AI.
And create that visibility.
So you don't need to micromanage any of this because a simple structure of what is needed in the goals that you created,
then keep it simple, and it will drive alignment very, very quickly.
(51:51):
Then it's human beings we're dealing with.
Recognize, reinforce.
Not just the outcomes you reward, you are rewarding the behavior that's going to make it better
and create the culture that you want to build.
That is how change will stick.
Then above all, coach your champions.
(52:13):
These are the owners, these are the influencers, there will be informal and formal influencers here.
Invest in them.
That's the part that brings me the greatest joy.
So their belief and energy will carry the change further than any top-down mandate.
So when they see how invested you are in them, they will do what is necessary for the organization.
(52:39):
And because they know that they will be taken care of, they will be supported, they will be recognized.
And that behavior multiplies.
Again, these are not theoretical principles, these are the main ones,
but these are lessons that have helped me lead high-impact change across global organizations at every company that I've been in,
and they will work for you also.
(53:00):
And if I have one thing that you have to absolutely remember for you,
remember that people do not remember what you changed,
they remember how you made them feel during the change.
That's my slight take on what Maya Angelou had said, right?
Make them feel good and valued when they are doing it.
(53:21):
So it's not about control, it is about the courage,
and not about certainty, but about bringing clarity.
It's not about being right, but about building belief.
And what makes change last is not just as a new process,
it is a new relationship to purpose, to people, to possibility.
(53:46):
Great. So do you have a closing message for our listeners?
First, I have a challenge for them, right?
If you are leading a change today, first of all, ask yourself,
can your team repeat the vision without a slight deck?
Have you made space for emotional readiness, not just the tactical execution part of it, right?
(54:11):
Are they ready for it? Do they believe in it?
And do your people feel seen and safe?
Or are they just informed and hence accountable?
So think about these.
If not, do any of these questions go back, reframe, reconnect,
(54:32):
lead more deeply, because adoption follows belief, belief follows trust.
So start with that.
And now you asked for a closing message.
So in every transformation I have led across legacy rebuilds,
new product launches, team resets and org wide shifts,
(54:53):
what I've learned is real change is not delivered through pressure.
It is through trust.
It has led to building clarity, safety and shared ownership.
So when you build a system where people know why they are changing,
how they will succeed and who will support them,
they will move faster with more conviction.
(55:16):
So the playbook that you create with you in there, your own style,
that is important. It matters.
But your presence, your consistent care,
your consistently showing up again and again, that matters even more.
So lead like a gardener, not a general.
(55:38):
You nurture, you prune, you protect.
Because change is not linear, it needs those seasons.
So sustain momentum through those rituals and rhythms and above all,
role modeling. Because real change needs leadership.
(56:02):
All right. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Manju. Thank you, Adam.
This was good stuff, as usual.
And to our listeners, if you like this episode,
we encourage you to share it with your colleagues, other engineering managers.
As always, the complete set of episodes of the Engineering Manager podcast can be found at www.effectiveam.com.
(56:33):
And you're also welcome to reach us with feedback and suggestions at contact@effectiveam.com.
And connect with me on LinkedIn, Manju Abraham, and we can continue the discussion.
Welcome to the Effective Engineering Manager podcast.
Today we have an amazing guest, Manju Abraham.
Manju has spent over 30 years leading engineering teams through big transformations at companies like NetApp, Delphix, and most recently, Hewlett Packard Enterprise.
Manju actually started as a rocket scientist in India before moving to the United States in the 90s.
(00:26):
Manju's magic power is driving change, breaking down silos, modernizing engineering practices, and getting teams to deliver faster and more reliably while taking care of people.
At Delphix and NetApp, Manju tightened execution, streamlined operations, and gave global teams the confidence to move faster.
At HPE, Manju pulled together siloed storage teams, stabilized legacy products, and drove the transformation to launch a brand new enterprise product despite budget cuts and hardware shortages.
(00:59):
Manju, welcome. So what would you like to talk about today?
Thank you, Slava and Adam. Thank you for having me here.
So today I would like to talk about something that's very close to my heart because it gives me a lot of energy to drive real change.
So driving real change, what most leaders get wrong and what actually works.
(01:22):
So that's the topic and as you described, I've had a long career and I've learned many lessons along the way.
So today I'll share some of those lessons on this particular topic.
That's great. And why is driving change effectively so important?
So this matters now even more than ever because the world is shifting so fast.
(01:47):
But most organizations are not keeping up to the change needed to enable the teams and to grow the business.
So the hard truth, if we were to call it out, is that nearly 70% of the change efforts fail.
They stall out, they meet resistance or they look successful on the slide deck, but never really reach the hearts and habits of the people doing the work.
(02:09):
That means it doesn't continue forward. Right. And failed change is not just neutral.
It's expensive because it costs time, it costs trust and it costs momentum.
So we are entering a time of unprecedented technological disruption.
There's AI, there's remote work, hybrid work, and then shrinking budgets and shifting expectations.
(02:31):
So but then still some timeless leadership truths still hold good as we lead teams and organizations through change.
So it's critical that we share and discuss that with engineering leaders to enable them to be more effective.
That's great. And Adam, I knew any thoughts on this?
(02:54):
Well, I think, Manju, I think you hit it on the head.
And the fact that so many efforts for organizational transformational change doesn't stick.
And it's almost like playing the stock market because, you know, you kind of know what the outcome you want.
But a variety of things, including luck, where you are in the timelines of your organization or your team or project or all that,
(03:19):
you know, play major factors that you sometimes can't even control or estimate.
And so having an idea for change, something that organically one is great, but it has all those factors to work against as well.
And it's great to hear about what your experience has been with that.
Right. So we'll get into that.
(03:44):
Yes. So and so, Manju, maybe we can start with what is the biggest misconception about the change in your experience?
Yeah. So the biggest myth I think leaders believe about change is this.
And if I press in the right data and I make a strong business case that people will just follow.
(04:08):
But that's really not how change works. Change does not happen because people understand the logic.
It happens because they believe in the leader. They trust the vision.
They have to feel emotionally safe to try something new and believe in it.
So you don't lead transformation by managing tasks. You lead it by reshaping beliefs.
(04:35):
That's good. And how how do you do this? How do you reshape the beliefs?
So there are many aspects to this. Right. I do not.
You know, the way I've managed to succeed in doing this, I feel, is because I do not treat change like a side project.
Many a time, that's, that's what I've seen leaders try to do.
I have to, I tend to treat it like a full system rewiring to a new way of operating, of bringing the energy, belief,
(05:04):
bringing goals and systems and above all, a culture to bring about the change to make it sustained.
So change does not begin with strategy. It begins with belief.
If leaders want to move fast, they must build that trust. And if they want innovation, they must create that safety.
(05:26):
And transformation is not just a process design. It indeed is an emotional design.
That's what I've seen in throughout my career. And when done right, change does not just feel like an upheaval.
It will feel like forward motion. So we need heart, but we also need method.
And that's what I want to share today, that practical playbook that I've used.
(05:51):
Well, that's great. Sounds like quite a lot to cover. Let's, let's dive in.
So talking about methods and frameworks that I've used, right.
So the approach I consistently use to lead that lasting systemic change is, you know, it's from my, my own experience,
through the mistakes I've made, frankly, right. It's, it is when I started studying human psychology
(06:16):
that I could bring about positive and active change that lasted.
So it's about blending structure and order, bringing that psychology, then role modeling actively,
and then taking on that cultural ownership. So I tried and tested my own different methods,
learned from mistakes I've made, and that was in my own style, being who I am, right.
(06:41):
And over the years, I've learned and improved. So there is always that unique touch of Manju in how I do it, of course.
But I could never really explain the how when people asked because I just do it.
That's what happens with many of us. So what I've done is reviewed some of the existing frameworks that we read about, right.
And it kind of makes it easier for me to explain. So I could see how I brought together instinctively,
(07:06):
you know, the most effective elements of say, Carter's 8-step, then Atkar model, then SMART goals,
and also tactical empathy from Chris Voss. So that's, I can bring all of that into my style of operation.
So on top of those, if you put your own touch, your own style into those frameworks and tune how you make it work,
(07:31):
that can lead to good success. So that would be a suggestion that I can make here.
So how do you use these frameworks, right? There are, you know, so if you look at Carter's 8, those 8 steps.
So I kind of live this from creating the urgency and forming those coalitions to sustaining acceleration and institutionalizing change.
So that kind of maps into a lot of what I do. And if you look at Atkar, it is about awareness.
(07:58):
It's about desire and knowledge, of course, the ability and then reinforcing it.
So this reminds us that you do not just announce change. You enable it, you track it, and you support it.
And that takes your presence. And we've all learned about SMART goals, right?
So to make change, I ask every leader that is leading each of these changes across the different initiatives to define the goals that are SMART, right?
(08:27):
Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound. And I'm sure all of you agree, it is not easy to do.
But the more you think about it, the more you evaluate it, and the more we brainstorm and kind of challenge each other about it
and think about the bigger goals that we have, that's when we will, that clarity will come through.
(08:49):
So I coach my leaders and get them to kind of work through this and challenge them to bring that clarity.
And the other part, I referred to that a little earlier. It's very interesting.
If you've not read Chris Voss's book on Never Split the Difference, he happens to be a, what do you call, hostage negotiator.
(09:10):
And he talks about tactical empathy, and the power of creating what he calls "that's right" moment.
And, you know, it's that negotiation framework, it maps also to my style of leading change, because it brings about trust.
It applies emotional intelligence, and it also brings a clarity of purpose at that moment, which gets that belief and buy-in happen very quickly.
(09:35):
So in leading change, I've found that people will not buy into your strategy unless they feel heard, that they feel respected, and that they feel safe.
Because change is never comfortable, right? So they are, "What is going to happen to me? And what does this mean for me?"
So, you know, instead of putting solutions in, I bring them in. I include them.
(09:56):
That inclusion really changes the dynamics very, very quickly.
And so I ask, "What's hard about this? Where do we keep getting stuck?"
Even if you have the answers, you're talking through it because you'll get much deeper insights.
And it's best to identify those champions and owners, and then give them those elevated roles and positions because it's an opportunity for them to grow.
(10:21):
And then at the same time, work with them to help them grow, get more of those ideas on the problems and those possible solutions.
And many leaders have seen that, you know, top-down command and control model, which may have worked earlier, but they are not getting the full solution, and they will not get the full buy-in.
Instead, give your leaders and your teams the support. You give them the air cover. You give them visibility and recognition for the good work.
(10:48):
Things will last, and the change will happen very, very quickly as well.
So when someone says, "That's right. That's exactly that issue that we were facing," that's the moment you see that the belief has started to shift.
And only then can we move toward transformation, not as a mandate, but as a shared movement.
(11:10):
So being inclusive, co-creating solutions and plans will have that lasting effect.
This is where they take ownership, and this helps us move at the speed with that buy-in.
Otherwise, it's like they'll do it, you know, Adam, you were saying earlier, they'll do it as long as you're around.
But when they buy into it, and then they take it to their teams, and their teams believe it, and then you role model that behavior, this gets adopted much better, and it'll last.
(11:41):
That's my experience.
Rondo, I have one question for you.
Sorry, you want to go ahead?
Yeah, go ahead. I was going to ask Adam what he thinks.
First of all, I think you articulate that very well, so thank you.
You started by saying it starts with a belief, and then you mentioned sort of towards the end there, emotional intelligence,
(12:04):
and connecting a belief that you as a leader feel is the right change, affecting that change, getting people to buy in,
but also tying it to awareness of whether they are believing in you.
And that's where emotional intelligence and the connection that you have with your people comes in.
(12:25):
Can you talk a little bit about how you've had success in that phase, and just getting that belief through that first step?
So when people feel heard, when they feel respected, and they feel that you are bringing these changes in for a particular purpose,
bigger than all of us, but at the same time something as a common goal that we can work towards in a safe environment,
(12:51):
where they are going to learn, they are going to get recognized and rewarded,
and we are going to achieve something together that's better than what was there earlier.
That's how you build that trust. And when you role model that behavior and reiterate it consistently, people see that.
(13:13):
And that's when they will follow, or they become leaders and take the rest of the team along as well.
That is how it gets taken through the ranks and becomes a movement.
I think that's such a great point, Manju, and that's something to not be overlooked,
because I think so many times leaders just pass through that step.
(13:34):
They think that even if their intention is good, that the change that they want to affect is the right thing,
connecting it to bringing everybody along and making sure everybody wants the same thing too, I think is really important.
I think that's a really important piece for our listeners to take away.
Just connect that to what you're doing across your organizations.
(13:57):
I agree. And I think my own experience in this was that the team,
the role of the leader driving the change is not to push it through,
but for the change to be successful, make it team's change.
It's the team's desire, team's movement, team's belief.
(14:23):
Like you mentioned in that book, I read it, they never split the change.
As a leader, you have to get to the point where everyone says, "Yes, that's the right thing to do.
Yes, that's right. That's what we want to do as a team."
They all become champions.
Correct. Until the team wants it and the team desires to have it,
(14:49):
it's always going to be pulling the people behind you, which is not what you want.
Sometimes you may have to pull until they see that, and then you're learning along the way also.
It is being consistent in your belief, but at the same time, when you're listening,
because they bring up such great details, because they're the ones living it.
(15:14):
Even if you have the vision, getting the vision aligned and then taking them along that way.
So how do you align everyone?
Let's say you start with nothing, right?
Change is needed. You already know this.
The team doesn't know. How do you bring everyone on board?
(15:38):
Maybe give some examples.
I can do that. There's a set of steps that you can follow.
This again is a compilation of the Carter State and the Adcar model, all of those.
The first thing would be, it usually happens when you, suppose you're taking on a new organization,
(16:01):
and there are a lot of things that you immediately see during your first few days, few weeks as you evaluate.
And so there are certain, so you say, OK, these are some of the changes that you need.
You have a general idea about the vision that you have for the organization, all of that.
But then you have to definitely assess the readiness and the context, right?
So before creating that sense of urgency and all that is necessary, assess whether the environment is truly ready.
(16:25):
Are the right stakeholders aligned to your vision towards the changes needed?
Are there invisible tensions, competing initiatives or fatigue from prior attempts?
How do you know it has not been tried before and why did it fail if it was tried?
So I've had many instances like that. So that investigation and assessment has always helped me.
(16:46):
And change, it will only land well when there is space for it to root.
So begin by scanning the landscape for both opportunity and for assistance.
So listen, learn, figure out and plan to address those gaps.
So the next thing would be, how do you create that urgency and surface the truth?
(17:08):
This is where that Carter's principle of urgency comes in.
But that one paired with tactical empathy, like Chris Voss says, begin again with those listening tours.
Once you have the strategy listening tours, OK, what is, ask them, what is hard about this?
Where are we getting stuck? Like I said earlier, right? But do not rush into those solutions.
(17:31):
Many a time, we already have done this before somewhere else, but this is a different organization, different set of people, different culture.
So you have to evaluate all of that. Even if the challenge across different companies seem the same at a high level, how you implement it can be quite different.
So do not rush into solutions, but look for those blockers.
Is there burnout? Is there budget constraints that you have to prepare for? Is there change fatigue?
(17:55):
And when people feel heard again, they will lean in. Be honest, be authentic.
Above all, that's most important. All along, being authentic and being yourself, right?
If you're inconsistent, that will be seen right away. There goes the trust.
So show your belief in them and in the vision that you're thinking of.
The next thing would be to build that coalition and identify champions.
(18:20):
There are always fantastic champions. So you have to identify those formal influences, maybe your senior directors or senior leaders.
And also there are informal influences. These may be individual contributors, but they are the believers.
And then there are the skeptics. You have to be aware of those also.
(18:42):
And then also the doers, right? So involve them early and then let them shape the message.
You listen to the skeptics. You know what to prepare for them.
So use that calibrated questions along the way. How can we do this?
That's how you unlock that ownership from their end.
Otherwise, they're doing it for the person who's asking top down. That won't work. It won't sustain.
(19:08):
So what happens here is their belief then becomes your amplifier.
That's very, very important to think about, right? Their belief becomes your amplifier.
Next would be, I truly believe in this, co-creating that vision. Co-creating.
It's not something that you write and give a slide deck on. You have to co-create.
(19:31):
So I usually just start with a one-liner to suggest and start the discussions going.
But then the rest of the vision, a clear, repeatable vision, we co-create it.
So because clarity, that is the antidote for chaos.
So you bring your leaders and champions together to define a vision that then resonates emotionally and practically because they have bought into it.
(19:58):
They own it because they have a hand in making that happen.
And then the biggest thing that has helped me again, like I said earlier, is in defining the SMART goals.
It's very hard to do, but as you work together, I have them put together the vision, the goals, the success criteria.
(20:19):
I'm kind of imagining that one-pager, the template that I always have, and then the next steps and kind of plan timelines.
So when you put that together, that one-pager becomes an all-star.
Why are we doing this? What does success look like? And how will we get there?
That becomes very clear. And when they write it, they own it also.
(20:42):
And I find so much joy when that happens and to see them continue to take that forward.
So then you make the ownership visible and safe.
So the name of the leader and the top architects and all of the team is there on that one slider too.
That's one piece of it. So empower the teams, not with pressure, but provide them air cover, provide them with budget and support.
(21:11):
Provide them clarity whenever things change around you, which will happen, and also provide them with autonomy.
So that one slider, like I said, use that one, because then they will continue to update you in the format that you expect and that everybody else uniformly understands.
Then use those traffic light dashboards. Makes it easier. They made the plans. Are they staying to plans?
(21:34):
What are the risks and what else? Where do you need help? It's easy to do that.
And then you can follow those rituals to kind of reinforce direction and retread that.
It's this one that becomes easy to communicate, and then they will continue to communicate also to all those around.
So when ownership is visible, accountability also becomes natural.
(21:58):
Then comes that reinforcement, right? That is through setting that rhythm, setting the expectations and recognition.
So what do you do there? Because you're making progress and celebrating those milestones, the belief settles even more.
Yes, we thought this would be hard, but now see, we've done this. We've done this.
(22:21):
And that joy, many a time, you know, I've had many leaders come and say, "Manju, I wasn't a believer, but now I believe."
So it's wonderful to kind of hear that, right? Because they're doing it themselves, which they didn't think was possible.
So establishing those operating rhythms, this is a rigor that you can bring in.
So I would have regular sync-ups that, you know, getting updates on it, the milestone reviews, and then giving shout-outs when things are going well.
(22:51):
So you recognize good behavior or activities that happen, peer recognition, and you don't recognize just the outcome, right?
So and change takes when people feel seen, valued, and connected to that bigger picture.
So there are a few more steps, like, you know, how do you institutionalize this? It is through culture and by role modeling.
(23:12):
So you have to make these activities that you're doing, the change you're bringing in, into the regular mode of how people work, how people talk, the language they use, and how they grow.
So some of these new behaviors, you add that into your own boding process itself.
So new ones coming in, learn that. And their bodies will keep teaching them, "Hey, this is important. And this is important for our leaders.
(23:37):
This is how we're going to do it. This is how." So it becomes a continued reiteration, right?
And then you bring this into performance conversations. It is valued. It's recognized.
You went above and beyond in how you made this happen. And then it gets into the team norms.
When the leaders are accountable across the board on different initiatives, they'll take that forward.
(23:59):
So you role model that behavior and you show up consistently as a leader.
I have to reiterate that consistency, right? Because your presence there signals what's real.
I wouldn't miss any of those meetings, even though it is weekly sync-ups.
And whether it is going well or whether it's not, it is giving me an idea.
(24:20):
When do I need to push on the pedal? When do I take my foot off the pedal also? Right?
Those are all needed. Then the team knows you're there. You are covering for them and you will help them succeed.
So when the team sees how leaders show up, the culture begins to shift and things happen very, very quickly.
So that's how you then sustain, you adjust, you keep listening. And then, you know, you stay agile without losing that direction.
(24:45):
So leadership is not just setting the course. It's steering through each of the waves.
That's how when you stay engaged, that's what will happen.
So this is what I've followed at every company that I've been in.
So HP, NetApp, Delphix and HP as well. It works because it starts with belief, builds through trust, and it delivers with rigor.
(25:11):
So it's inclusive, it aligns them to a bigger purpose, and then it builds systems that last.
That's pretty cool. Adam, what do you think?
Again, you articulate that very well. And clearly you've done this many times.
(25:32):
And this is great that you're able to bring this insight.
I think two things that stuck out to me. First of all, you mentioned autonomy.
I think that is such an underappreciated skill characteristic of a good leader.
Because I know my own history, like every time I've wanted to bring about change, having the autonomy to do that,
(26:01):
and the belief from my leadership, whether it's explicit or just culturally there,
has really been the impetus that has enabled whatever belief that I have to move through.
So I think that that's key. The second thing, and this is like a question to you, Manju,
because I don't know how, this is something I've struggled with, when you are presenting an idea for change,
(26:31):
even though you might have others in the room, you talk about building a coalition of people that work with you and support the vision,
even when you have someone who is nodding their head in agreement and they may genuinely believe that,
oftentimes there is skepticism, there is fear, there is "this is not my idea, so I might support it in principle, but I'm going to be passive."
(26:57):
And then of course there's political and cultural things within an organization that also help fester that even further.
What success have you had in helping bring believers along, but really bringing them into the picture
and making them be more active than passive?
(27:19):
Yeah, actually I think I should talk about some of the common mistakes, let me put it that way.
That will cover some of the questions that you have.
So the most common mistakes that people make is focusing on the process before the people part of it,
(27:42):
or this is where we talked about starting with belief and not just the steps.
If you're coming with an idea and instead I usually come with, "Hey, do you see this problem? How does it affect you?"
I want to understand that and that's how I learn and I can sense their frustration at themselves,
because whatever we notice, they are experiencing it far worse.
(28:06):
It's just that they don't know whether they can bring about change, will they be allowed to bring about change,
will they be given the funds and the time while everybody is pushing for a particular product or something?
So that air cover that you provide.
Because if you're doing something that is valuable and good, people would have seen it and they'll follow.
So the second point is, it's not about just redesigning workflows or assigning tasks and creating the documentation.
(28:35):
So that's what I meant to say there.
The second thing is, they assume that there's alignment and keeping quiet or so silence means agreement.
It doesn't even mean clarity or commitment.
That is usually the challenge.
So that is a problem.
Just because no one objects to it because you are coming from a senior role, it doesn't mean that it's going to work.
(29:01):
So you just have to really test the clarity, not silence.
That's where those discussions come in to be really useful.
So and the other part is, I was talking to Slava about this earlier.
You cannot move everyone at once.
And you also have to focus on that middle because you will have usually like the, what's the chart called?
(29:27):
You know, you may have the bell curve, right?
So you may have 10 percent that is the champions.
These are the early adopters.
And so for everything, there are these early adopters.
At the same time, there will be the 10 percent of those loud resistors, right?
The mistake that many people make is they just listen to the 10 percent adopters and then waste a lot of time on the loud resistors, right?
(29:53):
You're wasting your energy if you're focusing on that.
You have to listen to them.
But then more than that, it is on the 70 percent or 80 percent in the middle that you have to focus on.
That is when the energy shifts.
That is where scale lives as well, right?
You have the adopters, early adopters, that is well and good.
Continue to tap into that.
But then, you know, the 70 to 80 percent in the middle.
(30:16):
Do not waste your energy on the loud resistors, but talk to them, listen to that.
And then when you're consistently giving them the reason and spending a little time and then moving on, they will shift as well.
And the other part is, you know, many a time you have middle managers, ICs, many informal leaders.
(30:38):
If you spent and focused your time in identifying them, they will soon start repeating your message.
And the noise will be drowned out because there is a shift that has already happened.
The larger community will start modeling the new behavior.
That is when culture starts to move as well.
Does that answer your question?
(31:00):
You know, so this is where, you know, the people who resist, it is because one is either they care and they have seen challenges that have not been addressed.
So it's good to listen to them.
And then you can see, is that really a challenge that exists right now?
How do we address it?
Consider, evaluate, and that is part of the assessment that we do.
(31:22):
And when they feel heard and then they see that the larger organization is shifting, they will tend to follow also.
If there are people who are resisting for the sake of it, you have other means that you need to take action on also.
Right. But I would say 99 percent is not going to do that.
Many of these resistors, because they are worried about something.
(31:45):
If you listen to them and they feel heard and those concerns are addressed or you give an explanation for it and say that I will watch out for it and go back to that, then it will be fine.
We've always, we'll always have resistors.
But then the energy you bring into it as a leader, the support you provide to the teams, the momentum they see from all of that, that will shift everybody to go along.
(32:13):
That's a great, that's actually a very great perspective because if you think about it, oftentimes it is when you start to get more people in the room on board that even people that are a little bit more hesitant to join, even if they believe in it, will just kind of, you know, they'll feel that energy, like you said.
(32:34):
So I think that's a great point.
And when you measure it, when you keep measuring and you see the results, the momentum continues to build.
I can tell you it's always been really fast what happens there.
And I've been very lucky to have good leaders that I could pick and choose to be the champions and their role model.
And then, you know, it continues down.
(32:56):
And I've been lucky to have really good leaders who gave me the autonomy.
And I totally agree with you, Adam, it is when your autonomy is taken away that you feel that exhaustion.
I wouldn't want to do that to people reporting to me.
And they feel that as well and giving them that autonomy.
But at the same time, you know, it's about if there is the buck stops with me, they have to feel that.
(33:22):
I'll try things out.
I'll take risks.
But then Manju is going to take accountability for that.
That gives them even more of, OK, I can experiment.
I can try these.
That is when even greater things happen at even bigger pace because they would not have dared do that otherwise.
So that's the kind of support that you can provide.
Right. So there are many more of these kinds of missteps or mistakes that leaders make that I can kind of list out because I've seen that happen.
(33:52):
And sometimes I've learned from it as well.
I've seen it where, you know, they design change top down.
I'm totally, really against it because if you're not listening to feedback without that feedback loop, so you have to create a culture where you're seeking feedback.
And then, you know, that that kind of builds safety as well.
Right. And the other part is, you know, co-creation, like I talked about earlier, that creates commitment, that inclusion does that.
(34:20):
So not coming top down for change is going to be important.
So it has to be a mix of both.
Right. You may come up with something. This is the vision. This is where we want to go.
Now, how do you do it? Let that be bottom up and we meet in the middle and then you be that strong leader for it.
Right. Then not to confuse urgency with pressure.
(34:41):
Urgency should unify the team.
Not exhaust them. Right. Burnout.
Most people are not afraid of work, hard work.
What they are afraid of is a lack of autonomy.
That is when burnout happens, in my belief, in my experience.
So if you give them autonomy, people will do whatever it takes.
(35:02):
And that is so much fun to watch and to support.
And the other part is, you know, if you tend to reward the delivery but ignore the behavior, then you're not going to be able to change the culture.
There are different ways in getting to a delivery.
But if you're not changing culture and behavior the right way, then it's not going to sustain.
(35:26):
You had that question earlier as well. Right.
And, you know, don't just look at metrics.
You have not just the dashboards.
You have to look at how the human beings are responding to it.
What's the emotion behind it?
Where is the passion and energy in each of these?
That's something you have to watch out for as well.
Yes, I really like what you are saying about bringing the team along.
(35:51):
And I really like this notion of co-creation and co-ownership.
And I'm saying this because I've seen too many times when leaders come and just make an order.
This is the change and this is how it's going to be.
Go.
And I think many times it was even funny in a sort of a sad way because they come, they order, they disappear, and then nothing happens.
(36:23):
Right.
Because they think just because the order was given, it was cascaded top down, from the top to the down, and then nothing happened.
I've seen that so many times too. Exactly right.
Who is driving the change, right?
And who is doing it?
You have to create the structure.
(36:46):
Those cases just looked like it was some sort of a flash of light somewhere in the distance and it disappeared.
And I think one of the things, which is the tactical, I think I really like your broad framework for the change.
One tactical thing which worked for me is this initial step of co-ownership and co-creation, which I think works quite well.
(37:16):
We said that it is important, you said, Manju, that it's important for the team to be heard, each member of the team to be heard.
And what I've done is, first step is usually, if it is real change we wanted or there's a need for this, there's just a simple announcement.
(37:39):
It's sort of almost like an informal, not like a big meeting and when everyone gets together, but like, Hey, folks, this is what we are thinking about.
No action items yet.
And then the next step, which I think is super critical in forming this broader middle with lesser of laggards, like on the bell curve, the people, the critics.
(38:04):
I would go through or with and go and talk to each member of the team on a one-on-one basis and give them a lot of detail.
This is what it's all about.
These are the challenges we are facing.
I give them the clarity on a one-on-one basis and ask for their feedback, their thoughts, their concerns, their ideas, considerations, fears.
(38:37):
And it's important to do this second step on a one-on-one basis because this is the platform we can be honest and be heard and they can be heard.
Because the situations when those changes like top-down changes announced in a large, all-hands meeting, if there are more than five people in that meeting, there's no chance everyone is going to be heard.
(39:02):
It takes so much longer time to go one by one on a one-on-one basis.
But when the broader consideration or broader announcements are made, first of all, the leader can accommodate all the concerns or try to address, not all of them, I don't think it's possible all the time, but address the core ones.
(39:24):
And maybe even accommodate the ideas and already accommodate the feedback.
And when the team hears this broader introduction of the change, they already can see that they've been heard.
Right.
Because each of them can recognize that, hey, I already own this, I co-own this part because I brought it up and it's there and now I feel better and safe.
(39:49):
This is being addressed.
See, the scale of change that I've been involved in is not at the team level, it's at an organizational level, hundreds of engineers kind of organization.
So I can give an example that you're asking for.
At my last organization, HP, for example, it had a brilliant team, a thousand plus engineers across the storage business unit.
(40:15):
But we were siloed, stuck in firefighting mode, unable to shift focus from existing products to focus on and deliver the strategic new multiple One.0 products that were in mind.
So then priorities were shifting constantly, releases were unpredictable.
There was a very large tech debt and then infrastructure was unstable.
So what that means is the delivery and the back-end testing, all of those mechanisms were not flowing well.
(40:42):
So then the trust in our release rhythm itself was fading.
So this was not a one problem fix.
But it was really a systemic reset that we needed to do.
So I started by aligning my teams, my direct reports, the senior directors and the directors and the architects, and then getting my peer leaders involved.
(41:03):
So that's the one-on-one at that level that I started with Slava.
And then I did not push that change top-down.
This is a solution. This is how you have to do it kind of a thing.
That's not what I wanted to do.
But we co-created a shared vision.
I brought in the challenges and people listened and then made a list of more challenges.
(41:27):
And then we figured out, OK, here are the initiatives that we have to take on.
And then we assigned owners for that.
And then my question to them was, team, what does great look like in each of these areas?
What does great look like?
That is a powerful question, actually, right?
And then we started tackling the bottlenecks in each of these.
(41:49):
And this was by the chosen team.
These are the champions, the leaders.
And these are huge opportunities for them to work across organizationally.
Because as you've seen, if you're at a manager level, senior manager, director, you get siloed.
You start looking only at yours.
But these are broad changes.
And it's such a career opportunity also to figure out that kind of impact, to work across functionals, right?
(42:13):
So then we defined the vision for each of these initiatives.
I had clear owners for it, clear success criteria and the SMART goals and the next steps and milestones.
We did that together. And the team came back with it, and I would review it, essentially, right?
And we could review it together.
Till that was settled and the team was kind of ready for it, I didn't take it to the larger organization in the all-hands or so.
(42:39):
The leaders, the engineers, architects were listening in.
But I had these owners present that and say, "This is what you're going to do."
I just gave the introduction, and then the focus was on each of them.
They own it, and they would drive that.
And that was also giving them the autonomy as well as the kind of the authority to make sure whatever is needed to happen for that, for it to continue to happen.
(43:06):
And then I would provide air cover after that, right?
And then on an ongoing basis, we would review.
So we invested in CI/CD. We re-architected the release process.
We did deep root cause analysis of repeated issues that were all getting band-aids, right?
In product as well as infrastructure.
So no more band-aids, only long-term systemic fixes.
Why? We don't want to see that happen again.
(43:28):
So that mindset set in to people.
And we kept the entire organization aligned with that one-page traffic light tracker per initiative.
And I had my chief of staff who would follow up on each of these and kind of organize these.
So it showed progress on a weekly basis.
We tracked progress against the goals and metrics that the owners themselves had defined and agreed to and were proud to show along with their teams.
(43:57):
So the results, every metric kept getting ready and good.
And with momentum, more energy comes and more enthusiasm to make that happen because they're seeing the results as well.
So the shift and the results were clear and visible, and the change, it was palpable.
So we improved release predictability, 25% to consistently on time, repeatable commit and release processes, increase infrastructure stability by 30%, reducing test times, back-end release.
(44:28):
So each of those separate initiatives, some of them had sub-initiatives also, and this became the way the organization would get structured and we would bring about change, right?
So with that foundation, part of the team could then transition over and build and deliver a brand new 1.0 scale-out enterprise product.
(44:50):
That too with less budget, on schedule, despite many external challenges as well.
So I feel really proud of that because this was being done at scale.
But to your point, Slava, I wanted to call that out, that the change, you don't need to be a VP or a manager even to bring about positive change.
It doesn't matter what level you're at. You do not have to wait for permission to start that.
(45:16):
What you have to do is just decide, today I will lead it better and I will bring others with me.
And that has been my behavior for as long as even as an individual contributor, I think, right?
So be that change catalyst to make things better.
So with that attitude, anybody can bring about that change and the same principles of bringing others along,
(45:38):
seeing where the buy-in is and where the resistance is and starting to address those.
And then communicating and including people, same principles, will continue to work.
That's really good. And I really like this image of, it sort of struck me, that when the change begins,
(46:00):
there are already owners and those owners own this change, not because they were told,
but because they know themselves that this is not the best situation and they know themselves how the best looks.
And they want to bring about this change to get to this best configuration.
(46:26):
I love it. I think it's a great idea. Cool. Adam, any thoughts?
No, I think that's great. I mean, again, you articulate this very well.
I love how you can connect it at any level. I think that's really important.
Just because you move up doesn't mean you change how you go about leadership.
It's just the scope and the context might be a little bit different.
(46:50):
Right. Yeah. And the authority that you have, what you can do to provide air cover, all of those kind of challenges you face.
So that is where autonomy, if you have, stay at that place.
Right. 100%.
If you don't, then go do your good stuff somewhere else.
Somewhere else. Exactly. It's a good sign to find another place to be productive.
(47:12):
Yep. And I think one thing we sort of touched lightly is the small part of the team that would not accept the need to move forward.
That would be maybe, you know, criticizing or dragging things back or even sabotaging sometimes or just not participating.
(47:39):
And it's always a tough question, what do we do?
Because, I mean, even if you have 95% with you, you still have 5% that are not with you.
And I think that's where we have to be. I don't know, what is the right word?
You just have to activate the majority. Yeah, you have to activate the majority.
(48:01):
I think this is a subject of one-on-one conversations with those folks and just maybe asking them to disagree and commit.
Like, "Hey, folks, I understand that you're still not 100% on board, but everyone else is on board and they are doing it.
(48:22):
And let's go and let's do it together."
And this is where I think a lot of work is happening too, because the message needs to be consistent
and it needs to be reiterated to the folks who are not 100% with you.
You need to keep at it if you want, keep convincing.
(48:47):
And maybe convincing with… How do you convince doubters? You convince them with successes.
So the momentum is, you know, that's what we need to wait for. We need to demonstrate.
So I would still say it is you have the majority with you and they will build that momentum.
(49:11):
And with most people who are resisting, there is usually a few reasons.
And you can listen to the reasons if they are to click at that well, address the ones that you can.
And the rest of it, we'll figure out as we go.
And then you keep asking them, "Is it getting better? Is that addressed at this point?
(49:33):
If it is not, then can we work through it or work around it?"
They feel heard.
Yep, good stuff.
So, Manju, that was a great discussion.
Can you please share a checklist that our listeners could start using tomorrow to drive change effectively?
(49:59):
Yeah, I can, you know, what I can condense the kind of steps that I had earlier.
These are kind of the seven or eight non-negotiables to drive lasting change, right?
So first one is start with the belief, not a plan.
You cannot manage people into change. You have to earn their trust first.
That's important.
(50:20):
Then the next one is create emotional safety.
There are many steps in creating that we talked about.
So because if your people are afraid of what the change will mean, they will not innovate.
They won't speak the truth.
So safety is a precondition for transformation.
Then make the vision that you co-created, that you built, repeatable.
(50:43):
If your team cannot articulate the why without reading a slide, then the vision is not yet embedded.
They have to be able to easily articulate that.
Then co-create those SMART goals.
So the vision you created together, the SMART goals, and, you know, bring that together.
So when it's co-created, momentum will follow.
(51:05):
So the next one is about, you know, focusing on the majority.
The middle 50, 70% also, the quiet ones, the doers,
they are the ones who will make it happen along with the early adopters.
So real shift happens when you activate the majority.
Then track progress visually and visibly.
(51:27):
It can be one sliders, it can be traffic lights, it doesn't need a lot of data and effort.
It's even more easier now with AI.
And create that visibility.
So you don't need to micromanage any of this because a simple structure of what is needed in the goals that you created,
then keep it simple, and it will drive alignment very, very quickly.
(51:51):
Then it's human beings we're dealing with.
Recognize, reinforce.
Not just the outcomes you reward, you are rewarding the behavior that's going to make it better
and create the culture that you want to build.
That is how change will stick.
Then above all, coach your champions.
(52:13):
These are the owners, these are the influencers, there will be informal and formal influencers here.
Invest in them.
That's the part that brings me the greatest joy.
So their belief and energy will carry the change further than any top-down mandate.
So when they see how invested you are in them, they will do what is necessary for the organization.
(52:39):
And because they know that they will be taken care of, they will be supported, they will be recognized.
And that behavior multiplies.
Again, these are not theoretical principles, these are the main ones,
but these are lessons that have helped me lead high-impact change across global organizations at every company that I've been in,
and they will work for you also.
(53:00):
And if I have one thing that you have to absolutely remember for you,
remember that people do not remember what you changed,
they remember how you made them feel during the change.
That's my slight take on what Maya Angelou had said, right?
Make them feel good and valued when they are doing it.
(53:21):
So it's not about control, it is about the courage,
and not about certainty, but about bringing clarity.
It's not about being right, but about building belief.
And what makes change last is not just as a new process,
it is a new relationship to purpose, to people, to possibility.
(53:46):
Great. So do you have a closing message for our listeners?
First, I have a challenge for them, right?
If you are leading a change today, first of all, ask yourself,
can your team repeat the vision without a slight deck?
Have you made space for emotional readiness, not just the tactical execution part of it, right?
(54:11):
Are they ready for it? Do they believe in it?
And do your people feel seen and safe?
Or are they just informed and hence accountable?
So think about these.
If not, do any of these questions go back, reframe, reconnect,
(54:32):
lead more deeply, because adoption follows belief, belief follows trust.
So start with that.
And now you asked for a closing message.
So in every transformation I have led across legacy rebuilds,
new product launches, team resets and org wide shifts,
(54:53):
what I've learned is real change is not delivered through pressure.
It is through trust.
It has led to building clarity, safety and shared ownership.
So when you build a system where people know why they are changing,
how they will succeed and who will support them,
they will move faster with more conviction.
(55:16):
So the playbook that you create with you in there, your own style,
that is important. It matters.
But your presence, your consistent care,
your consistently showing up again and again, that matters even more.
So lead like a gardener, not a general.
(55:38):
You nurture, you prune, you protect.
Because change is not linear, it needs those seasons.
So sustain momentum through those rituals and rhythms and above all,
role modeling. Because real change needs leadership.
(56:02):
All right. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Manju. Thank you, Adam.
This was good stuff, as usual.
And to our listeners, if you like this episode,
we encourage you to share it with your colleagues, other engineering managers.
As always, the complete set of episodes of the Engineering Manager podcast can be found at www.effectiveam.com.
(56:33):
And you're also welcome to reach us with feedback and suggestions at contact@effectiveam.com.
And connect with me on LinkedIn, Manju Abraham, and we can continue the discussion.
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