December 5, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode, David and Dawn break down the recent P. Diddy trafficking allegations to explore a crucial but often misunderstood aspect of sex trafficking: coercion. Drawing from their extensive experience in anti-trafficking work, they discuss how traffickers use psychological manipulation, false promises of stardom, and drug-based coercion to exploit victims. Learn why many trafficking victims don't initially identify as such, and how cultural influences and power dynamics play a role in exploitation. This eye-opening conversation challenges common misconceptions about trafficking and provides valuable insights into recognizing the signs of coercion.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to the Elijah Rising podcast.
On this episode, we're doing aNewsreact video, and so I have
my co-host here, don.
I'm David and we're going to betackling a little bit of the P
Diddy story.
Of course, this is so involvedLike every day, I feel like
something new comes out so we'regoing to share a couple of
(00:20):
thoughts about it and what Ifeel like is relevant for us,
especially being in theanti-trafficking space, and you
know, a lot of people are stillnew to understanding what sex
trafficking is, and so I thinkthis trial is going to really
challenge a lot of people'sperspectives.
Dawn (00:39):
It will for sure.
David (00:42):
And you know, just looking at it, I'm hopeful that
most people will be like, yes,this is horrible, this is like
sex trafficking, bad.
But unfortunately, when you getinto the details, people begin
to dismiss certain things.
And that's really what we wantto talk about in this episode.
And so just to kind of catchyou guys up on what's happening,
(01:02):
sean Combs, known as P Diddy abunch of different names he's a
popular rapper, celebrity, avery powerful, influential
figure.
He's facing two kinds of cases.
So one is a criminal casebrought by the federal
government and then severalcivil cases brought by
individuals, each involvingdifferent allegations.
(01:25):
So Combs was arrested oncriminal charges.
The government alleges that heused his business enterprise to
conduct criminal activity,including sex trafficking,
kidnapping, and then used hispower to intimidate victims and
cover up the crime.
So we remember that federalindictment coming forward.
(01:45):
He was arrested and after thatevent it kind of unlocked this
floodgate of more and morepeople coming forward saying,
you know, they knew about thesefreak off parties that Didi was
having.
A lot of victims came forward.
I think the local attorneyrepresenting victims is here in
Houston, tony Busby.
They had thousands of peoplecome forward and had to utilize
(02:09):
the help of local lawenforcement to kind of help vet
some of the allegations.
But it's still like thousandsof people were saying they were
involved in being trafficked atP Diddy's parties.
Involved in being trafficked atP Diddy's parties, drug-based
coercion, all types of justcrazy things.
There's also allegations ofminors being involved.
(02:31):
I think it was like a nine or a10-year-old boy who was trying
to get into the music industry,and so that plays a big role in
this story.
But I want to highlightsomething that p diddy lawyers.
He said during one of thetrials and he said is it sex
(02:52):
trafficking?
The question no, not, ifeverybody wants to be there.
And uh, these were the word ofwords of diddy's lawyer and I
feel like this reveals thegreatest challenge for us in the
anti-trafficking space ishelping people understand
(03:13):
coercion Right, and if someonewants, why do?
Women in the sex industry don'tidentify as being sex
trafficked and they're not ableto see the signs.
And I know, dawn, you can speakfrom experience because you do
a lot of outreach and you knowyou're in these places, you're
(03:35):
in the sex industry where you'retrying to reach girls, and a
lot of times they're not able tosee the manipulation, the
coercion, the brainwashingthat's going on behind the
scenes.
Dawn (03:47):
Right.
Well, so much of it happenedbefore they even got into a sex
trafficking situation.
It happened through music, ithappened through media, where it
basically groomed them intothinking that a certain
lifestyle was what they neededto attain.
And so by the time they enteredinto the situation, they think
(04:08):
they've arrived and you know,they go along with a lot of it.
But then when you bring in theforced drug usage, the physical
abuse, the emotional abuse, thepsychological manipulation, all
of that plays a part into whyvictims cannot self-identify and
why I would say most of Americadoesn't look at that and say,
(04:31):
oh wow, that's trafficking.
These people just made choices,because the lines are very
blurred, sadly.
David (04:39):
Yeah, and even I think, when you have someone that's in
an industry like a musicindustry, very powerful
individual.
That power can be used toexploit people.
Dawn (04:49):
Yeah.
David (04:50):
And I think you do a great job of this, of helping
especially young peopleunderstand the culture.
So a lot of this was happening.
I mean, this has been happeningfor years.
This isn't like something hedid last month.
This is years and years andyears of these types of parties
where people were brought in,drugged, abused, exploited, sold
(05:12):
all of that and that happenedwithin a understanding of like,
this is just a lifestyle, and Ithink you're very right when you
say that there are songs, thereare music, there are parts of
our culture that normalize thesetypes of things and maybe even
glorify it absolutely.
(05:33):
And so what has your experiencebeen?
Dawn (05:36):
this is just kind of a side topic okay but engaging
with young people in regards to,like the music industry,
culture and the message that'sthat's put out to, let's say,
the average 14 16 year old well,I can speak from my experience
being a teacher, um, how itinfluenced the way that my
(05:57):
students dressed, the way thatthey spoke, the way that they
behaved.
And I've taught in a number ofschools, from Title I schools,
where there was, you know,poverty, to wealthy, you know
affluent schools, and they allhad the same influences.
And you, you know, when youhave, I'll never forget I had a
student come up to me and try totell me what neighborhood he
(06:19):
lived in and he's like, oh, andhe called it the ghetto in.
And he's like, oh, and hecalled it the ghetto.
And that was this badge ofhonor to be a thug.
And the home he lived in wasprobably $180,000 home at the
time.
So this was 20 years ago, maybeeven longer than 20 years ago,
and it just made me laugh andI'm like that's not the ghetto,
(06:45):
but that's what he wanted tobelieve, because it elevated him
in status for some reason.
So, and that was from listeningto music and, you know,
watching certain movies and TVshows that gave him this ideal
life, that was thug culture, andit really just manipulated him
into thinking that that's whathe was supposed to aspire to.
And he was, you know, a smartkid who was underachieving
(07:09):
because he thought he wantedsomething different.
David (07:12):
Yeah.
Dawn (07:12):
And so it, you know it affects them.
Now, as far as the sex trapSorry, I said sex.
David (07:20):
We're trying to not get banned on YouTube y'all.
Dawn (07:24):
Part of my job is saying that word like hundreds of times
a day.
David (07:27):
It's okay, we'll edit it.
Dawn (07:28):
Okay, thanks, when we're talking about trafficking.
So many of the women we'vealready said this don't even
realize that they're beingtrafficked because it's all part
of this lifestyle.
And I have even talked to pimps, to traffickers, who have said
man, my job used to be muchharder, I don't have to work
really hard anymore becausethese girls are already ready
(07:51):
for me wow to just come in andmonetize them and, you know,
make a lot of money off of themand that is cultural influences
that have done that to just somany women, oh, and generational
.
Absolutely, oh yeah,generational, and it's
environment right.
David (08:10):
So let's talk about coercion, because I think that
this is something people don'tknow, that they don't understand
what that means.
I think they think of you know,when you're talking about
trafficking, they're thinkingkidnapping, they're thinking
someone's forcing you to go beout on the street, which all of
those situations happen.
But, one of the most commonmethods that traffickers use is
(08:31):
this term called coercion, andit looks different, like it's
psychological, and so it's notclear as day.
You know, you often cannot seeuntil you begin to talk with an
individual and understand.
Dawn (08:44):
hey how did?
David (08:45):
you end up here.
What led you here and so Ithink that's one of the big
arguments they're trying to makein this trial is that, hey,
everyone wanted to be at theseparties.
We don't see a big deal.
He didn't force anyone.
They willingly drank this stuffand did these drugs.
Dawn (09:04):
Well, yeah, took that, took, you know, drank this stuff
and did these drugs.
And well, yeah, if you're anupcoming rapper or you're a
model, who's you know, aspiringto make it big time, and you
know, p diddy or puff daddy,whatever he calls himself
invites you to a party saying,hey, this can launch your career
, then Most people wouldprobably say, hey, what a good
break for me.
You know, isn't that the lingoin Hollywood?
David (09:25):
Oh, I got to catch a break and the gifts and the
money Like we see that yeah, inour space and helping people out
of trafficking.
Dawn (09:33):
And him making it easier.
It wasn't like he invited themto the party and then said oh
hey, you have to find your ownway here.
No, he sent people for them,made it super easy, paid for
everything to get them in aplace and he looked at their
vulnerabilities.
Hey, these people want stardom,these people want fame.
I'm going to push them to seewhat price they're willing to
(09:55):
pay for that.
Which coercion right there.
David (09:59):
Yeah, and I mean that's still used.
Most pips use that too.
I mean they promise modelingcareers, music industry careers
yes, or even just a great lifetogether.
You know, we'll only do this forfive years and then we're going
to have this amazing life, um,which never happens yeah or
rarely happens, and I mean theyalso will use influence of
(10:22):
popular, like I've heard girlssay oh yeah, you know, my pimp
knew this rapper and they wouldbe at this party together and it
just seemed like this personwas really legit, like he could
really give me a record label, arecord deal you know, and so it
looks very real.
But on the other side of thatit's like okay, now you're going
(10:43):
to be trafficked and that's notwhat you signed up for.
Dawn (10:46):
Right you know.
David (10:48):
So let's talk about some forms of coercion.
Obviously, manipulation andbrainwashing are all part of it,
and I think Dawn is ourexcellent researcher, and so she
has this book.
What is it called?
Like Pimpology?
Yeah, so they have books abouthow to brainwash people and
(11:11):
manipulate.
Dawn (11:11):
Yes, yeah, they have a lot of books about it and it breaks
it down step by step on how togroom someone, to manipulate
them, to absolutely control them, to manipulate them, to
absolutely control them.
And that's what we see is whenthe manipulation gets to the
point where these women will doanything for this person and
(11:37):
they're sacrificing everything,and they just lay it out in
black and white and it's there's.
You know, even I have spokenwith pimps who mentor younger
pimps.
A lot of times they'll meet injail and then, when they're
released, they're they'rebasically mentoring them up and
(11:57):
hey, these are the right tacticsto use to bring girls into your
stable.
David (12:02):
Yeah.
Who will stay with you, andyeah, yeah, I actually, when I
used to do intervention, I metum this young guy just out of
prison and he was being mentoredby another.
Pimps out there, young guy,maybe 19 years old, yeah, um, so
another, another form ofcoercion drug-based coercion and
(12:22):
they were saying that was a bigpart of these parties where
there would be substances eitherput on the body and y'all.
There are some crazy drugs outthere, because we have an
amazing recovery staff here.
They have this massive bookcalled the drug bible and
(12:42):
there's like millions of allthese different types of drugs
that cause, you know, range fromlike paralysis to hallucination
, to blacking out.
I mean, it's just, it's crazy,but that's a huge part of
coercing someone into sellingthemselves and we see it on the
street.
You know there's you know, uh,most of the girls are dealed
(13:04):
substances, either to increaseperformance, to endure, or just
to kind of be dissociated fromwhat's happening.
Dawn (13:14):
Yeah, and it's kind of crazy.
Most of the people that I meetout on the streets who are being
, you know, prostituted out onthe the streets, their pimps
will not let them get into heavydrugs, they just let them use
the drugs that will take theedge off.
Because if you're going to haveto sexually service anywhere
between 5 and 15 men a day, youhave to have something to take
(13:37):
the edge off.
And and the reason I've talkedto pimps and it's also in that
pimpology book is that it getstoo messy when they get addicted
to hardcore drugs and theycannot make as much money off of
them because they're just outof it all the time.
And so if you think about that,you know, I think a lot of us
(14:00):
would like to think oh yeah,these poor girls, they're just
drugged, they don't know what'shappening.
But I think it's a little bitdifferent than that.
I think that they have justbeen so manipulated.
They have just been convincedthat what they're doing is first
of all their own choice, andwhat they're doing is what they
(14:20):
have aspired their whole life todo.
And so drugs do play a part,especially, I think, in the
initial in the P Diddy.
So many of the people weresaying they gave me a drink and
then I passed out.
You know that type of thing, andthat's sometimes how it all
starts.
But as far as keeping themaddicted to the drugs, it's from
(14:42):
my experience it is just thelighter drugs that they can
still function and make a lot ofmoney for their trafficker.
David (14:51):
And one of the patterns I've seen too is that introduce
drugs into it but then introducea camera like a video, capture
it on video and then that's usedfor blackmail or extortion.
Dawn (15:03):
Oh yeah, yeah.
David (15:05):
And so that's why all these like I think I saw
something about the New YorkPost has access to a bunch of
these videos.
But, that was what Epstein didhe recorded videos of people
that were, you know, exploitingother people, and we see that
like especially in young peoplethat are being groomed.
It's you know, meet the Romeopimp on Instagram.
(15:27):
Hey send me a new photo andthen from there it's like hey,
if you don't come sell yourself,then I'm going to share this
photo with all your friends andall your family.
Dawn (15:38):
Yeah, and even people who don't start out as pimps.
But they get some nudes oftheir girlfriend and they
realize, wow, I can profit offof this, I can make a lot of
money.
And so it just it turns theminto a pimp, which is crazy.
And that's because it's becomenormalized in our society and
it's, you know, it's just gottento this you know crazy level
(15:59):
where I'm glad it's beingexposed.
I know that there's a lot ofpeople quaking in their boots
right now who are on the youknow ditty list of you know if
they have recordings of them.
I know that there's a lot ofpeople thinking, oh my gosh, if
this comes out, I'm ruined.
David (16:15):
Yeah, you know, yeah, so I guess you know.
Final question is do we thinkthe justice system is going to
protect the wealthy and thepowerful, or is there going to
be justice in this?
Dawn (16:28):
Do you want my honest answer?
It would be a pleasant surpriseif the victims are the ones who
the justice system rules intheir favor.
It would be a very pleasantsurprise.
I mean, what has been done withthe Epstein list?
David (16:49):
Nothing, nothing yeah.
Dawn (16:51):
And so it would be very refreshing to see justice served
in this.
David (16:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I wonder, if youknow, survivors have been
speaking out on this so muchlike the real effects of
coercion yeah you know, and Iand I feel like, in this, with
this trial, are we going tolisten?
Are we going to listen to thevoice of survivors who obviously
(17:17):
have experiences and right,have lived through it, um, who
understand what it's like to beexploited and brainwashed,
manipulated, coerced into doingsomething?
And I think that's going to be achallenge for a lot of people,
especially when we do awareness.
You know we do the Van ToursPeople are like, well, why don't
you just leave?
You know, right.
(17:37):
And it's like they don'tunderstand because they haven't
been in their shoes.
Dawn (17:43):
And they've been being groomed since they were children
, and a lot of them makedecisions to allow themselves to
be trafficked, if if that's theword you want to use when they
were 12, 13 years old, whentheir brain wasn't even fully
developed enough to be able tomake that kind of a decision, to
be able to look and see aheadand say oh, this is what this is
(18:07):
going to mean in two years,five years, ten years.
Um, they, just they.
They can't even make thatdecision.
Yet they do make the decisionbecause they are coerced into
making the decision.
David (18:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, man, this was a reallydeep, hard conversation.
Dawn (18:27):
Well, it is.
And I want to say one morething it's really going to
require Americans to revisittheir preconceptions of what
prostitution is, what coercionis, because I think we all are
familiar with those terms.
But when you begin to encounterstory after story after story
(18:48):
after story, and they're allbasically saying the same thing,
I think it should cause us topause and say you know, let's
take a deep dive into this so Ican better understand this.
I think there's going to bepeople out there saying, well,
you know, they wanted to be amodel, they chose to go to the
Diddy party, and well, you know,that's what you get.
(19:08):
But you have to actually take astep back and look deeper into
it and look into the coercionaspect of it and to understand
it, because our goal in this isto prevent this from happening
again.
You know, we don't want to seethis happen again.
And you know, just saying, ohwell, that's what happens isn't
going to do it.
We have to take a differentroute and say, okay, let's
(19:30):
understand coercion so that wecan prepare people not to be
able to, or to be able to avoidbeing coerced?
David (19:37):
Yeah, or spot it.
You know like there's so manysurvivors I've talked to that.
It's like man if someone wouldhave told me that I was being
trafficked and right.
Yeah, explain to me what washappening Like this is one of
the main aspects of our programis like, when a lot of the women
first come in, it's like theydon't even know that they were
(19:59):
trafficked or they don't believethat they were trafficked um,
and it's only until a coupleweeks later we get into the
trauma therapy, we get into, uh,just facing what has happened
in their past.
and then this moment ofrealization, like I've literally
have done video interviews withpeople who are like talking
(20:19):
about trafficking, and midinterview they're like, oh my
God, I'm just realizing I wastrafficked.
Dawn (20:25):
Yeah, that happens to me all the time on the street.
It takes years to build arelationship and they're like,
oh no, I'm not being trafficked,I chose this, I'm not being
trafficked.
And you just keep loving them,speaking identity over them, and
then all of a sudden it's likeMiss Dawn, I think you're right,
I think I'm being trafficked.
And it's like a light bulb goesoff and you know it's
(20:45):
heartbreaking, but at the sametime you're excited because then
you can, you know, get them thehelp that they need.
David (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, guys, there's.
I'm sure there's going to be alot more to the story coming out
and we'll try and keep you guysup to date and give our
perspective and give ourinsights.
Being in the anti-traffickingspace, I think you know this is
it's really great that it'sbeing exposed and people are
having these conversations,because this is I mean, this is
(21:13):
really a crisis.
I mean this is really a crisisit's.
Dawn (21:15):
You know, I was just in Dallas last weekend and just
seeing the trafficking there andhow, just out in the open, I
(21:35):
was like this is crazy thatwe're in 2024, and this is still
just so rampant, so widespread,with all the awareness, with
all the you know, onlineadvocates, the voices of
survivors, coming forward Likethis is really a time for us to
wake up, you know?
Yeah, well, you say all theawareness because we live in
this world, but I get to meetpeople outside of this world and
so many people just don't know.
David (21:47):
Yeah.
Dawn (21:47):
They just don't know.
So hopefully these types ofthings are going to.
David (21:50):
Yeah, so here's how you can help us.
You can share this podcast witha couple of people and let them
know that you support ElijahRising, and just share this
conversation and say, hey, youknow, have you heard about
what's happening in the news?
Listen to Elijah Rising.
They have a lot of greatinsights.
And that would really help usget the word out.
Dawn (22:09):
Yeah, come on a van tour.
Come on one of our van tours soyou can learn about what it is.
It is, and specifically inhouston it'd be great.
David (22:18):
Yeah, well, thank you guys.
Uh, we will catch you on thenext podcast.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Elijah Rising podcast.
On this episode, we're doing aNewsreact video, and so I have
my co-host here, don.
I'm David and we're going to betackling a little bit of the P
Diddy story.
Of course, this is so involvedLike every day, I feel like
something new comes out so we'regoing to share a couple of
(00:20):
thoughts about it and what Ifeel like is relevant for us,
especially being in theanti-trafficking space, and you
know, a lot of people are stillnew to understanding what sex
trafficking is, and so I thinkthis trial is going to really
challenge a lot of people'sperspectives.
Dawn (00:39):
It will for sure.
David (00:42):
And you know, just looking at it, I'm hopeful that
most people will be like, yes,this is horrible, this is like
sex trafficking, bad.
But unfortunately, when you getinto the details, people begin
to dismiss certain things.
And that's really what we wantto talk about in this episode.
And so just to kind of catchyou guys up on what's happening,
(01:02):
sean Combs, known as P Diddy abunch of different names he's a
popular rapper, celebrity, avery powerful, influential
figure.
He's facing two kinds of cases.
So one is a criminal casebrought by the federal
government and then severalcivil cases brought by
individuals, each involvingdifferent allegations.
(01:25):
So Combs was arrested oncriminal charges.
The government alleges that heused his business enterprise to
conduct criminal activity,including sex trafficking,
kidnapping, and then used hispower to intimidate victims and
cover up the crime.
So we remember that federalindictment coming forward.
(01:45):
He was arrested and after thatevent it kind of unlocked this
floodgate of more and morepeople coming forward saying,
you know, they knew about thesefreak off parties that Didi was
having.
A lot of victims came forward.
I think the local attorneyrepresenting victims is here in
Houston, tony Busby.
They had thousands of peoplecome forward and had to utilize
(02:09):
the help of local lawenforcement to kind of help vet
some of the allegations.
But it's still like thousandsof people were saying they were
involved in being trafficked atP Diddy's parties.
Involved in being trafficked atP Diddy's parties, drug-based
coercion, all types of justcrazy things.
There's also allegations ofminors being involved.
(02:31):
I think it was like a nine or a10-year-old boy who was trying
to get into the music industry,and so that plays a big role in
this story.
But I want to highlightsomething that p diddy lawyers.
He said during one of thetrials and he said is it sex
(02:52):
trafficking?
The question no, not, ifeverybody wants to be there.
And uh, these were the word ofwords of diddy's lawyer and I
feel like this reveals thegreatest challenge for us in the
anti-trafficking space ishelping people understand
(03:13):
coercion Right, and if someonewants, why do?
Women in the sex industry don'tidentify as being sex
trafficked and they're not ableto see the signs.
And I know, dawn, you can speakfrom experience because you do
a lot of outreach and you knowyou're in these places, you're
(03:35):
in the sex industry where you'retrying to reach girls, and a
lot of times they're not able tosee the manipulation, the
coercion, the brainwashingthat's going on behind the
scenes.
Dawn (03:47):
Right.
Well, so much of it happenedbefore they even got into a sex
trafficking situation.
It happened through music, ithappened through media, where it
basically groomed them intothinking that a certain
lifestyle was what they neededto attain.
And so by the time they enteredinto the situation, they think
(04:08):
they've arrived and you know,they go along with a lot of it.
But then when you bring in theforced drug usage, the physical
abuse, the emotional abuse, thepsychological manipulation, all
of that plays a part into whyvictims cannot self-identify and
why I would say most of Americadoesn't look at that and say,
(04:31):
oh wow, that's trafficking.
These people just made choices,because the lines are very
blurred, sadly.
David (04:39):
Yeah, and even I think, when you have someone that's in
an industry like a musicindustry, very powerful
individual.
That power can be used toexploit people.
Dawn (04:49):
Yeah.
David (04:50):
And I think you do a great job of this, of helping
especially young peopleunderstand the culture.
So a lot of this was happening.
I mean, this has been happeningfor years.
This isn't like something hedid last month.
This is years and years andyears of these types of parties
where people were brought in,drugged, abused, exploited, sold
(05:12):
all of that and that happenedwithin a understanding of like,
this is just a lifestyle, and Ithink you're very right when you
say that there are songs, thereare music, there are parts of
our culture that normalize thesetypes of things and maybe even
glorify it absolutely.
(05:33):
And so what has your experiencebeen?
Dawn (05:36):
this is just kind of a side topic okay but engaging
with young people in regards to,like the music industry,
culture and the message that'sthat's put out to, let's say,
the average 14 16 year old well,I can speak from my experience
being a teacher, um, how itinfluenced the way that my
(05:57):
students dressed, the way thatthey spoke, the way that they
behaved.
And I've taught in a number ofschools, from Title I schools,
where there was, you know,poverty, to wealthy, you know
affluent schools, and they allhad the same influences.
And you, you know, when youhave, I'll never forget I had a
student come up to me and try totell me what neighborhood he
(06:19):
lived in and he's like, oh, andhe called it the ghetto in.
And he's like, oh, and hecalled it the ghetto.
And that was this badge ofhonor to be a thug.
And the home he lived in wasprobably $180,000 home at the
time.
So this was 20 years ago, maybeeven longer than 20 years ago,
and it just made me laugh andI'm like that's not the ghetto,
(06:45):
but that's what he wanted tobelieve, because it elevated him
in status for some reason.
So, and that was from listeningto music and, you know,
watching certain movies and TVshows that gave him this ideal
life, that was thug culture, andit really just manipulated him
into thinking that that's whathe was supposed to aspire to.
And he was, you know, a smartkid who was underachieving
(07:09):
because he thought he wantedsomething different.
David (07:12):
Yeah.
Dawn (07:12):
And so it, you know it affects them.
Now, as far as the sex trapSorry, I said sex.
David (07:20):
We're trying to not get banned on YouTube y'all.
Dawn (07:24):
Part of my job is saying that word like hundreds of times
a day.
David (07:27):
It's okay, we'll edit it.
Dawn (07:28):
Okay, thanks, when we're talking about trafficking.
So many of the women we'vealready said this don't even
realize that they're beingtrafficked because it's all part
of this lifestyle.
And I have even talked to pimps, to traffickers, who have said
man, my job used to be muchharder, I don't have to work
really hard anymore becausethese girls are already ready
(07:51):
for me wow to just come in andmonetize them and, you know,
make a lot of money off of themand that is cultural influences
that have done that to just somany women, oh, and generational
.
Absolutely, oh yeah,generational, and it's
environment right.
David (08:10):
So let's talk about coercion, because I think that
this is something people don'tknow, that they don't understand
what that means.
I think they think of you know,when you're talking about
trafficking, they're thinkingkidnapping, they're thinking
someone's forcing you to go beout on the street, which all of
those situations happen.
But, one of the most commonmethods that traffickers use is
(08:31):
this term called coercion, andit looks different, like it's
psychological, and so it's notclear as day.
You know, you often cannot seeuntil you begin to talk with an
individual and understand.
Dawn (08:44):
hey how did?
David (08:45):
you end up here.
What led you here and so Ithink that's one of the big
arguments they're trying to makein this trial is that, hey,
everyone wanted to be at theseparties.
We don't see a big deal.
He didn't force anyone.
They willingly drank this stuffand did these drugs.
Dawn (09:04):
Well, yeah, took that, took, you know, drank this stuff
and did these drugs.
And well, yeah, if you're anupcoming rapper or you're a
model, who's you know, aspiringto make it big time, and you
know, p diddy or puff daddy,whatever he calls himself
invites you to a party saying,hey, this can launch your career
, then Most people wouldprobably say, hey, what a good
break for me.
You know, isn't that the lingoin Hollywood?
David (09:25):
Oh, I got to catch a break and the gifts and the
money Like we see that yeah, inour space and helping people out
of trafficking.
Dawn (09:33):
And him making it easier.
It wasn't like he invited themto the party and then said oh
hey, you have to find your ownway here.
No, he sent people for them,made it super easy, paid for
everything to get them in aplace and he looked at their
vulnerabilities.
Hey, these people want stardom,these people want fame.
I'm going to push them to seewhat price they're willing to
(09:55):
pay for that.
Which coercion right there.
David (09:59):
Yeah, and I mean that's still used.
Most pips use that too.
I mean they promise modelingcareers, music industry careers
yes, or even just a great lifetogether.
You know, we'll only do this forfive years and then we're going
to have this amazing life, um,which never happens yeah or
rarely happens, and I mean theyalso will use influence of
(10:22):
popular, like I've heard girlssay oh yeah, you know, my pimp
knew this rapper and they wouldbe at this party together and it
just seemed like this personwas really legit, like he could
really give me a record label, arecord deal you know, and so it
looks very real.
But on the other side of thatit's like okay, now you're going
(10:43):
to be trafficked and that's notwhat you signed up for.
Dawn (10:46):
Right you know.
David (10:48):
So let's talk about some forms of coercion.
Obviously, manipulation andbrainwashing are all part of it,
and I think Dawn is ourexcellent researcher, and so she
has this book.
What is it called?
Like Pimpology?
Yeah, so they have books abouthow to brainwash people and
(11:11):
manipulate.
Dawn (11:11):
Yes, yeah, they have a lot of books about it and it breaks
it down step by step on how togroom someone, to manipulate
them, to absolutely control them, to manipulate them, to
absolutely control them.
And that's what we see is whenthe manipulation gets to the
point where these women will doanything for this person and
(11:37):
they're sacrificing everything,and they just lay it out in
black and white and it's there's.
You know, even I have spokenwith pimps who mentor younger
pimps.
A lot of times they'll meet injail and then, when they're
released, they're they'rebasically mentoring them up and
(11:57):
hey, these are the right tacticsto use to bring girls into your
stable.
David (12:02):
Yeah.
Who will stay with you, andyeah, yeah, I actually, when I
used to do intervention, I metum this young guy just out of
prison and he was being mentoredby another.
Pimps out there, young guy,maybe 19 years old, yeah, um, so
another, another form ofcoercion drug-based coercion and
(12:22):
they were saying that was a bigpart of these parties where
there would be substances eitherput on the body and y'all.
There are some crazy drugs outthere, because we have an
amazing recovery staff here.
They have this massive bookcalled the drug bible and
(12:42):
there's like millions of allthese different types of drugs
that cause, you know, range fromlike paralysis to hallucination
, to blacking out.
I mean, it's just, it's crazy,but that's a huge part of
coercing someone into sellingthemselves and we see it on the
street.
You know there's you know, uh,most of the girls are dealed
(13:04):
substances, either to increaseperformance, to endure, or just
to kind of be dissociated fromwhat's happening.
Dawn (13:14):
Yeah, and it's kind of crazy.
Most of the people that I meetout on the streets who are being
, you know, prostituted out onthe the streets, their pimps
will not let them get into heavydrugs, they just let them use
the drugs that will take theedge off.
Because if you're going to haveto sexually service anywhere
between 5 and 15 men a day, youhave to have something to take
(13:37):
the edge off.
And and the reason I've talkedto pimps and it's also in that
pimpology book is that it getstoo messy when they get addicted
to hardcore drugs and theycannot make as much money off of
them because they're just outof it all the time.
And so if you think about that,you know, I think a lot of us
(14:00):
would like to think oh yeah,these poor girls, they're just
drugged, they don't know what'shappening.
But I think it's a little bitdifferent than that.
I think that they have justbeen so manipulated.
They have just been convincedthat what they're doing is first
of all their own choice, andwhat they're doing is what they
(14:20):
have aspired their whole life todo.
And so drugs do play a part,especially, I think, in the
initial in the P Diddy.
So many of the people weresaying they gave me a drink and
then I passed out.
You know that type of thing, andthat's sometimes how it all
starts.
But as far as keeping themaddicted to the drugs, it's from
(14:42):
my experience it is just thelighter drugs that they can
still function and make a lot ofmoney for their trafficker.
David (14:51):
And one of the patterns I've seen too is that introduce
drugs into it but then introducea camera like a video, capture
it on video and then that's usedfor blackmail or extortion.
Dawn (15:03):
Oh yeah, yeah.
David (15:05):
And so that's why all these like I think I saw
something about the New YorkPost has access to a bunch of
these videos.
But, that was what Epstein didhe recorded videos of people
that were, you know, exploitingother people, and we see that
like especially in young peoplethat are being groomed.
It's you know, meet the Romeopimp on Instagram.
(15:27):
Hey send me a new photo andthen from there it's like hey,
if you don't come sell yourself,then I'm going to share this
photo with all your friends andall your family.
Dawn (15:38):
Yeah, and even people who don't start out as pimps.
But they get some nudes oftheir girlfriend and they
realize, wow, I can profit offof this, I can make a lot of
money.
And so it just it turns theminto a pimp, which is crazy.
And that's because it's becomenormalized in our society and
it's, you know, it's just gottento this you know crazy level
(15:59):
where I'm glad it's beingexposed.
I know that there's a lot ofpeople quaking in their boots
right now who are on the youknow ditty list of you know if
they have recordings of them.
I know that there's a lot ofpeople thinking, oh my gosh, if
this comes out, I'm ruined.
David (16:15):
Yeah, you know, yeah, so I guess you know.
Final question is do we thinkthe justice system is going to
protect the wealthy and thepowerful, or is there going to
be justice in this?
Dawn (16:28):
Do you want my honest answer?
It would be a pleasant surpriseif the victims are the ones who
the justice system rules intheir favor.
It would be a very pleasantsurprise.
I mean, what has been done withthe Epstein list?
David (16:49):
Nothing, nothing yeah.
Dawn (16:51):
And so it would be very refreshing to see justice served
in this.
David (16:57):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I wonder, if youknow, survivors have been
speaking out on this so muchlike the real effects of
coercion yeah you know, and Iand I feel like, in this, with
this trial, are we going tolisten?
Are we going to listen to thevoice of survivors who obviously
(17:17):
have experiences and right,have lived through it, um, who
understand what it's like to beexploited and brainwashed,
manipulated, coerced into doingsomething?
And I think that's going to be achallenge for a lot of people,
especially when we do awareness.
You know we do the Van ToursPeople are like, well, why don't
you just leave?
You know, right.
(17:37):
And it's like they don'tunderstand because they haven't
been in their shoes.
Dawn (17:43):
And they've been being groomed since they were children
, and a lot of them makedecisions to allow themselves to
be trafficked, if if that's theword you want to use when they
were 12, 13 years old, whentheir brain wasn't even fully
developed enough to be able tomake that kind of a decision, to
be able to look and see aheadand say oh, this is what this is
(18:07):
going to mean in two years,five years, ten years.
Um, they, just they.
They can't even make thatdecision.
Yet they do make the decisionbecause they are coerced into
making the decision.
David (18:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, man, this was a reallydeep, hard conversation.
Dawn (18:27):
Well, it is.
And I want to say one morething it's really going to
require Americans to revisittheir preconceptions of what
prostitution is, what coercionis, because I think we all are
familiar with those terms.
But when you begin to encounterstory after story after story
(18:48):
after story, and they're allbasically saying the same thing,
I think it should cause us topause and say you know, let's
take a deep dive into this so Ican better understand this.
I think there's going to bepeople out there saying, well,
you know, they wanted to be amodel, they chose to go to the
Diddy party, and well, you know,that's what you get.
(19:08):
But you have to actually take astep back and look deeper into
it and look into the coercionaspect of it and to understand
it, because our goal in this isto prevent this from happening
again.
You know, we don't want to seethis happen again.
And you know, just saying, ohwell, that's what happens isn't
going to do it.
We have to take a differentroute and say, okay, let's
(19:30):
understand coercion so that wecan prepare people not to be
able to, or to be able to avoidbeing coerced?
David (19:37):
Yeah, or spot it.
You know like there's so manysurvivors I've talked to that.
It's like man if someone wouldhave told me that I was being
trafficked and right.
Yeah, explain to me what washappening Like this is one of
the main aspects of our programis like, when a lot of the women
first come in, it's like theydon't even know that they were
(19:59):
trafficked or they don't believethat they were trafficked um,
and it's only until a coupleweeks later we get into the
trauma therapy, we get into, uh,just facing what has happened
in their past.
and then this moment ofrealization, like I've literally
have done video interviews withpeople who are like talking
(20:19):
about trafficking, and midinterview they're like, oh my
God, I'm just realizing I wastrafficked.
Dawn (20:25):
Yeah, that happens to me all the time on the street.
It takes years to build arelationship and they're like,
oh no, I'm not being trafficked,I chose this, I'm not being
trafficked.
And you just keep loving them,speaking identity over them, and
then all of a sudden it's likeMiss Dawn, I think you're right,
I think I'm being trafficked.
And it's like a light bulb goesoff and you know it's
(20:45):
heartbreaking, but at the sametime you're excited because then
you can, you know, get them thehelp that they need.
David (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, guys, there's.
I'm sure there's going to be alot more to the story coming out
and we'll try and keep you guysup to date and give our
perspective and give ourinsights.
Being in the anti-traffickingspace, I think you know this is
it's really great that it'sbeing exposed and people are
having these conversations,because this is I mean, this is
(21:13):
really a crisis.
I mean this is really a crisisit's.
Dawn (21:15):
You know, I was just in Dallas last weekend and just
seeing the trafficking there andhow, just out in the open, I
(21:35):
was like this is crazy thatwe're in 2024, and this is still
just so rampant, so widespread,with all the awareness, with
all the you know, onlineadvocates, the voices of
survivors, coming forward Likethis is really a time for us to
wake up, you know?
Yeah, well, you say all theawareness because we live in
this world, but I get to meetpeople outside of this world and
so many people just don't know.
David (21:47):
Yeah.
Dawn (21:47):
They just don't know.
So hopefully these types ofthings are going to.
David (21:50):
Yeah, so here's how you can help us.
You can share this podcast witha couple of people and let them
know that you support ElijahRising, and just share this
conversation and say, hey, youknow, have you heard about
what's happening in the news?
Listen to Elijah Rising.
They have a lot of greatinsights.
And that would really help usget the word out.
Dawn (22:09):
Yeah, come on a van tour.
Come on one of our van tours soyou can learn about what it is.
It is, and specifically inhouston it'd be great.
David (22:18):
Yeah, well, thank you guys.
Uh, we will catch you on thenext podcast.
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