Gen Z, the quiet revival & why this moment matters with Tim Alford

Something remarkable is happening among young people. Church attendance for Gen Z has quadrupled. Bible sales are soaring. Spiritual hunger is everywhere, but it's not exclusively Christian.

In this essential conversation, Tim Alford (National Director of Limitless) joins Mark Pugh to unpack:

• Why Gen Z are spiritually open in unprecedented ways
• The collapse of New Atheism and the mental health crisis driving this moment
• Honest talk about social media addiction - for leaders and young people
• Practical digital boundaries that actually work
• Why churches need spiritual experience, not just information
• How to make room for God's presence in our gatherings
• The power of intergenerational spiritual family

"You can't develop deep spirituality in eight-second reels," Tim warns. "If we have a generation who continues to be digitally addicted and wildly overstimulated, those things are falling on shallow soil."

This is a moment the church cannot afford to miss, but we need to do things differently.

Listen and subscribe to our podcast creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/elimleaders

Share this episode with youth leaders, pastors, and anyone working with young people in your church.
Leave a comment on your podcast platform - we'd love to hear how this conversation impacts you.

View the show notes on elim.org.uk

Limitless resources and events: limitlesselim.co.uk

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the latestedition of the Elim Leaders
Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Pugh, and
today we get to look at all things Jen Zed, Quiet revival,
what God is doing among the younger generation and how the
church can make the most of thisopportunity.
So in order to explore those things, we're going to be
speaking with Tim Alford, who leads Limitless Youth Ministry,

(00:24):
and he's going to be helping us unpack the issues.
We have a range of great interviews coming up in the
weeks ahead after a short summerbreak, and I know that you're
going to find them inspiring anda blessing.
So do subscribe if you haven't already so that you can get
notification of when each of those episodes are released.
Let's go to the interview. Sound is not quite what we hoped

(00:46):
it would be. Sorry about that.
The microphones didn't work as we anticipated.
So we've tried to clean up the sound as much as possible to
make it listenable. But there are gems in there, and
I think you're going to find this really, really helpful.
So here we go. Here is Tim Alford, well, Tim
Alford, who is limitless and very well respected youth

(01:06):
worker, leader of the National Youth ministry across the
nation. And Tim, if there was somebody
we could speak to to try to analyze what's happened to the
nation or the talk around the choir, revival, Gen.
Z, all the articles in the weekly in newspapers about faith
stories of Biden's unprecedentedrates.
Tell us what you are observing and seeing, not just reading and

(01:30):
hearing from the press, but whatdo you see as you engage with
Gen. Z in the church?
Yeah, really, really good question mark and thanks very
much for having me. OK.
So I guess maybe let's start forthose two are less familiar with
some of the major headlines and then I can to show you what I'm
kind of seeing on the ground as I engage with young people and

(01:52):
leaders and how that correlates or otherwise.
But one of the major headlines that came from the quiet revival
report from the Bible Society was this quadrupling of church
attendance over recent years forGen.
Z in particular. So another report that was

(02:13):
produced that showed that sales of the the Good News Bible, the
youth edition have doubled. And as you say, you know, there
seems to be more and more headlines of, you know, the
YouTube algorithm threw one up to me just today about Gen.
Z rejecting atheism. So there is a a changing

(02:36):
narrative of. Course that goes against quite a
consistent period of. Decline.
That's right. Which which again,
sociologically speaking, it was accurate that was that was
happening in young degenerations.
Well, I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the
church in previous decades was hemorrhaging young people,
teenagers, young adults. But that does seem to have been

(03:01):
a shift in the opposite direction.
Now when we're talking about quadrupling of Gen.
Z and church attendance, we're still talking about more than
80% of Gen. Z who are not attending church.
So it's very, very encouraging signs in the right direction.

(03:21):
But there's still a long way to go.
There's still a lot of people toto reach.
I think probably the other thingthat's just worth highlighting
as well as we have this conversation and we talk about
young people, The youngest Gen. Z is now are 14.
So a lot of the young people in our youth groups and all of the

(03:42):
kids in our kids ministries likeGen.
Alpha now as we've kind of crossed that, you know,
generational line. So that, that that's some
interesting affections around. So clarify Gen.
Z is 14 to. Yeah, so Gen.
Z would be 99 born from 95 through to 2010 and then Gen.

(04:06):
Alpha 2010 through the 24. Well, we're 25 S the next
generation is just about to start being born Gen.
Beta, I reckon they're going to call them.
So yeah. So that's that's kind of, you
know, there has to be a delineation at some point.
It's obviously it doesn't mean that everyone who was born in

(04:28):
one year is like this and everyone born the next year is
suddenly like this. But yeah, I do think it's
helpful to be able to track cultural trends and how the
nature of culture is impacting on that particular generation
and how that particular generation is impacting on
culture. So certainly there is is a is a
shift there. It does feel like an exciting

(04:49):
time with Gen. Z and Gen.
Alpha and there's really good things happening.
And, and I would certainly, my reflection is that the reports
that have come out over the lastyear have reflected something
that I've been experiencing, butI haven't had the data to back

(05:11):
up, you know, I've experienced something anecdotally.
It's not just my experience. Is that just what I'm seeing
within my own context or is thattracking more broadly around the
nation, across the church, you know, more broadly across Europe
and the nations of, of, of the world?
But I'm seeing certainly, and I think for me, this is a, this
is, this is the major headline and it's a, a spiritual openness

(05:35):
like I have not seen before in all my years, you know, working
with young people. There is just an openness to
spirituality and the things of the spiritual life.
Now, that doesn't mean exclusively Christianity, mind
you. And I think that's important to
know as well. And so we're seeing a lot of

(05:57):
spiritual experimentation in this generation and that's being
proliferated through TikTok and YouTube and Instagram.
Lots of paganism, witchcraft, witch talk is like a massive
thing. Manifestation has been a huge
trend in Gen. Z in particular, this idea of

(06:18):
kind of speaking your future realities into being.
And sometimes that's involving the use of crystals and that
kind of thing. Even one report I read which
says that the the the fastest growing religious, we wouldn't
call it a faith, but religious expression in the UK, shamanism

(06:38):
right now. Yeah.
So, so there is an openness and an appetite for the spiritual
life in this generation, which Ihaven't, I haven't seen before.
And. That puts an enormous
responsibility if there's an openness of spirituality and
there's all sorts of things being offered.
Yes. And that puts an enormous

(07:00):
responsibility upon us to the church to make the most of the
window, isn't it? I want to come to that in a
moment. If I can just backtrack a.
Little bit. Of course, intercessors and the
praying church will say this is the result of our years of
prayer, and I believe that playsa part of it.
But are there other cultural identifiers that you see, things

(07:21):
that this Gen. Z have experienced or become
disillusioned by that's playing a part in their openness to
spiritual matters compared to previous generations.
Yeah, I think, yes, great question and I do agree.
I do. I would agree with those
successors. I don't think God acts in the
same way whether we pray or not.I do think God responds to the

(07:44):
prayers of his people and when we seek him and when we pray and
when we fast and when we intercede, he moves.
And I think we are seeing that God is moving and he is
answering the Press of his people.
I do believe that to be true. And yes, I think there are other
cultural factors. One thing that's really
interesting to know is the rise and fall of New Atheism.

(08:07):
And so we had your, you know, the whole kind of Dawkins,
Harris, Hitchens, that whole, itwas, it was a movement that felt
very scary for the church, wasn't it?
A number of years ago there wereadverts all over buses.
The God delusion became this phenomenon.
And, you know, we were a little bit fearful about what was going

(08:29):
on. And I think what I see has
happened is that the hollowness of that has been laid bare.
And what's been shown is that that that kind of new atheism
has not been able to fuel what we're looking for.

(08:53):
And ultimately, we would say what we've been made for, like
we are made for transcendence. We're made for intimacy in
relationship with God. And ultimately, we don't find it
in God. We will try to find it somewhere
else. And the New atheism movement
just couldn't satiate that. That desire that, no matter how
well hidden, is latent within every single one of us.

(09:16):
And that's quite comforting for us because there will be trends
that have come and gone throughout history.
There are. Movements that come and go and
yet society cannot escape that God piece, that missing piece in
their life and everything else fails to answer it.
Because that wasn't very intimidating time for the

(09:38):
church. You know, we were all polishing
up on our. Apologetics to try to.
Engage with people. But it was a vehement strength
of argument that was coming our way.
But it fails, and his generationhave probably become quite
disillusioned by failed materialism and all the other
things that came into such a philosophy.

(09:59):
Yeah, that, that, that that's exactly right.
And I'm grateful for the apologists.
And and I think, you know, what was really helpful for the
church in that movement is that we recognize, you know, thinking
of one Peter, always be preparedto give an answer for the reason
for the hope that you have. And we suddenly realized we
weren't really very well prepared to answer these

(10:20):
questions. And it made us engage
intellectually, theologically and philosophically and
scientifically. We made us engage our minds and
dig deeper and find more robust dancers.
And I'm grateful for the the apologists that have led in that
movement. I think of the the Lennoxes or
the Amy or Ewings or the Justin Brierley's and you know, of this

(10:42):
world that really helped us withthat.
And I think that has that has strengthened us.
But as we would always say in the Pentecostal church, it's
word and Spirit, isn't it? And was it Blaise Pascal
originally? He spoke about the, the, the God
shaped toll. I think that the, the
philosopher originally spoke about that.
That is a reality of our personhood.

(11:03):
You know, ontologically speaking.
I think that is, you know, thereis no escaping that and we can
stuff it down. We can fill it with other
things, but, you know, yeah, as I say that we are made for that
transcendence, and we can't be fully human without it.
And ultimately we come to a point where that's laid bare.

(11:24):
And I think that's what happenedfor for this generation.
And so that's the spiritual exploration that we're seeing in
all kinds of different ways. And the anxiety component parts
of a generation, I notice on thedeaths you've got the anxious
generation, which is a it's not a Christian book, but it's a
book that unpacks some some theory as to why this generation

(11:49):
on living with such levels of anxiety, identity crisis and so
on. The tininess for the surety of
the message of the gospel. Salvation, hope, identifying
Christ, love, unconditional love, finding Christ.
It feels like that is a very, very tiny message if we can't

(12:12):
stipulate it to the for a generation.
Yeah. The the the what you've
highlighted there is so, so important.
Yeah, you mentioned the anxious generation Jonathan Heights
book. I think it's one of the probably
one of the most important books I've ever read.
One of the things it demonstrates through kind of

(12:33):
multiple studies is that the link between the link between
excessive digital consumption, but particularly social media in
particular, and the mental health epidemic in a generation
is not just one of correlations 1 of causation.
And that's what he seems to, youknow, demonstrate.
And it's a good book for us to read.

(12:55):
It's like. A really, really important book
yeah, I'd highly encourage anybody to to to pick it up.
And yes, so the the result is that we we do have an epidemic
of anxiety in particular also toa lesser degree, but still
significantly depression. The way that that works itself

(13:15):
out in self harm often and yeah,here's here's Jesus who says
peace, I give to you my peace. I live with you.
Jesus who comes to us and says Ihave told you these things.
Why? So that my joy might be in you
and your joy might be made complete.
And there is an abundance in life with God that I am

(13:41):
convinced you that there there'sno other pathway to that.
But, and this is a big but, it'snot.
It can occasionally be, but mostoften it's not an automatic
transaction that happens when wegive our life to Jesus.

(14:04):
If we want to have the life of Jesus, we need to adopt the
lifestyle of Jesus. And I think that's one of the
major challenges with this generation.
Mark, I was thinking about this just this morning as I was out
on the run. The, the excitement I have is
that it's a generation who's spiritually hungry, who I mean,

(14:27):
we've seen over the last four years, more than two and a half
thousand people respond to the gospel.
The engagement in worship is like nothing I've ever seen
before in my life. The the openness to what the
Holy Spirit wants to do, the willingness to just go with
things that could potentially feel well, do feel

(14:50):
uncomfortable, potentially intimidating as God moves in
power. And these young people are just
so up for it. They're so up for engaging.
They're so up for going on the journey.
They're so open for these spiritual things.
That's the exciting bit. But my concern, Mark, is that if
we have a generation who continues to be digitally

(15:12):
addicted and wildly over stimulated, then those things
are falling on shallow soil and they cannot take root.
You know, thinking of the parable of the solar, they can't
take root and it will be easily plucked away because you can

(15:35):
develop a deep spirituality in 82nd reels, you just can't do
it. Can I just take a bit of a
diversion with you? Yeah.
From this topic. Yeah.
From the topic of James Z, Yeah.And talk about the role of
social media on the church media's life.
Yes. Because we have been among The

(15:59):
Pioneers, the early adopters, really obvious many of us in
ministry and we have not been able to curate the experience
for the next generation because we have been caught up.
And I know you and I have sometimes reflected some of the
pressures that we feel regardingsocial media engagement.
You know, everybody wants an opinion, everybody wants to

(16:21):
smoke out your opinion so that some people can share and some
people can bash you down. And we we find social media to
be a helpful tool in some regards, but also when I speak
to people who work in that tech industry, their money is
generated by our addiction. That's right.

(16:42):
And they when who was it said that when you were given
something for free, you are you are the product.
Product, that's right. And so all of the attention that
we are being drawn to give to social media, I think there are
probably ministers listening to this, that they probably feel

(17:07):
that it's difficult to curate something for the next
generation because they're strongly curated in their own
life. What tips would you give the
ministers thinking about that social media engagement?
This is a great question that onthe on the one hand, an argument
could be made and the argument goes like this.
It's a mythological argument andit, and it goes, well, Jesus

(17:28):
incarnated the space where we are and we as the church want to
be incarnational in our mission and where people are is on
social media. And so therefore we want to be
there for the gospel and, and for Christ.
And there's validity and weight to that argument.
The problem, as you've accurately highlighted, is that

(17:51):
social media is, is not a neutral space that we inhabit.
So I've heard a couple of illustrations on social media,
one which I felt was woefully inadequate and one which I felt
was a bit more helpful. But the one that was inadequate
was this, and it was actually one of violent was somebody said
of social media. Well, social media is usually

(18:13):
it's like a kitchen knife. A kitchen knife is something
that you can use to cause great harm or it's something that you
can use to cook up a nutritious meal.
And the idea is like it's, it can be good, it can be bad, It's
how you use it. But the problem with that
illustration is that a kitchen knife is an inanimate object and

(18:34):
it is having no influence on me.That is not the case with social
media because as you rightly pointed out, we're not the
consumer, we're the product and our attention is the commodity
that's being sold to advertisers.
That's why they spend so much money and that's why the
algorithm, the notification, thewell, the, the algorithm serves

(18:56):
up the content that my historical digital footprint has
demonstrated. I will give the most amount of
time to, you know, the way that the notifications work, the way
that the kind of ceaseless refresh of the scrolling works.
All of that, all of that and more is designed to get and keep
as much of my attention as possible.
And so I'm sucked into this world of distraction,

(19:17):
compulsion, and ultimately addiction.
And so I've had a relationship of increasing detachment with
social media over the years as it, you know, as everything
first started came coming out, Iwanted to be the early adopter
guy. Oh, Facebook, oh Instagram, oh
TikTok. But more and more as life's

(19:39):
going on, I've realized that theimpact that it has had on me, on
my spiritual life, my relationallife and on my mental health
overall. And so I over the years have put
in a number of different boundaries, practices and
rhythms which have helped me to to live free in the digital age.

(20:02):
And for me and I, I talk to young people about this a lot.
There are a few core practices which I would encourage anybody
to engage to and we. Would do this with any other
distraction or temptation in ourlife.
In ministry, we've all got certain principles that we make

(20:24):
sure around our life in the areas of vulnerability.
But this new thing arrived on the scene, the smartphone, the
social media and those boundaries haven't always been
instincted to put in place. So what you are about to share
is absolutely why wouldn't we dothis?
Yeah. Yeah.
And and yes, that's absolutely right.

(20:47):
But it I think what we need to understand is it's more powerful
than I'm going to limit how muchchocolate I'm going to eat
because the, the smartphone, social media, the front face
camera, it has literally we willrewired our brains and changed
the way we think and process information, communicate, you
know, to the, the, the world changed in 2007 when the first

(21:11):
iPhone was released. It's a epoch changing moment.
So. So the evidence of that is found
in that book we just referenced a few moments ago.
You know, I think there, the summary of the entire book is
the parents and society. We've been overprotective of
kids in the real world. We stop them on and play because
the world's a bad place. Yeah, we've left them in the

(21:32):
home, but we've under protected them in the online world.
So their friends are all online,they engage on social media and
if they say something they don'tlike, they just disconnect them,
they unfriend them. So they.
Haven't learnt about engaging the nuances and debate and
working on the differences of life and the result of that.

(21:54):
I think one of the phraseologists and uses in the
which I've never come across before was the description of
anti fragile. You know, I put a really good
deal glass on the table and I knock it onto a tile floor, it
will smash because it's fragile.If it's a plastic cup and it
falls on that same floor, it won't smash because it's not
fragile. But anti fragile is an attrition

(22:17):
given to something that when it falls, it becomes better as a
result. So our immune system.
Is and gradual. Yeah, that's right.
And we have a generation that built by God to get better from
the adversity of life. But we've sanitized the
experience of that for so many young people in the real world.
But actually the harm that is then happening on the wine

(22:41):
world, we've not been involved in the nuance of that.
That's leftist, vulnerable, anxious generation and I don't
think it is just the younger generation.
The university is felt by us all.
That principle is true of the spiritual life, like it's all
over the pages of scripture thatthe suffering, properly engaged

(23:03):
is perhaps the greatest catalystin our spiritual growth.
The maturity there's an anti fragility to to do that as well.
As five suffer produces persevere character, character
produces hope. And you know, absolutely it's
enshrined in the journey of our discipleship.

(23:23):
So practices that have been helpful to me, non negotiables
really that have been present inmy life for many years.
The the 1st is to start every day with Jesus and not with my
phone. So many of us have fallen into
this terrible habit of the alarmgoes off, we wake up and what's
the first thing that we do? We reach for our phone and it's

(23:46):
notification, it's e-mail, it's social media, it's simulation,
it's comparison, it's anxiety inducing.
You know, it's just a terrible way to start the day.
Start the day, you know, in the peace of God's presence and in
the truth of his word and allowing that to be the bedrock
and the foundation of your life.I like Henry now and he says the

(24:09):
best time to pray is early in the morning because that helps
us to live the rest of the day God centered and the the morning
quiet time is nothing new. But the purpose of the morning
quiet time isn't to take morningquiet time off the list or to
have the morning quiet time is to help us to live the whole of
the day oriented around Jesus presence that's always with us

(24:34):
and being awake and alive to that reality through the course
of the day. So one thing I say to young
people people people is have this as a principle for your
life. I will spend time with God alone
before I spend any time with my phone.
So number one is is start the day with Jesus.
Number 2 is similarly at the endof the day, those those the

(24:57):
beginning and the end of the dayhave our brains are in a
particularly moldable, mailable state.
So the thing that we the first thing that we do in the morning
and the and the last thing we doat night are really important.
So give your phone to bedtime. I think that's been really I'll
I'll get my phone off an hour toan hour and a half before I go
to bed to on a on a very kind ofneurological level to give my

(25:23):
eyes a break from the blue lightthat increases their level of
melatonin in my brain and stops me from getting good sleep.
Deep sleep, restorative sleep. Sleep is massive, as we know,
for all kinds of health a whole person.
And again, just I've, I've been practicing over over the last

(25:44):
couple of years and from Saint Ignatius, the prayer I've
examined before I go to bed, just reflecting on the day with
gratitude, with repentance and noticing my God's been present
in the day. So, you know, bookending the
day, not with Instagram or you know, scrolling through TikTok
videos or Netflix or whatever itis, but the starting and ending

(26:05):
with, with Jesus. And then I would really
encourage everyone to take a 24 hour digital Sabbath once a
week, switch your phone off again, take a rest from all of
that stimulation and that and that need to be present to

(26:26):
everyone all of the time. I was thinking this morning
actually, John the Baptist said these words.
He said I am not the Messiah. I think it's would be a healthy
practice for every leader to getup every morning and look in the
mirror and say I am not the Messiah.

(26:47):
The world, like the world will go on quite fine without me
being on social media for 24 hours.
Everything will be OK. I couldn't do it.
And just to, you know, the practice of Sabbath obviously
has lot has been part of church history since there was a
church. And, and I think, you know, I'm
confident if if Jesus was aroundand practicing and modelling and

(27:10):
exampling and teaching that today, it would apply to our
digital life as well. So 24 hour Sabbath has been has
been really helpful. The other thing is, I've got all
of my notifications off so that I only access my phone when I
need it, not when it needs me totry and be the master, not the
slave of of my kind of digital life.

(27:32):
And then? And as well as as well as what
you're putting into us as a way of managing well-being in our
life. And sure we don't be on a part
of addiction. There is amazing what other
loves can find space to breathe in our life.
That's right when it's not takenup by senseless scrolling.

(27:54):
You know, I remember a number ofyears ago when I went on two
week holiday and the four hour holding went on, we didn't have
Internet access and we were likethat's quite a long time to go
about Internet access, but it was the most liberating and we
probably read even more than we normally would do a lot of read.

(28:16):
Anyway, we were ready for more. There were conversations that
were happening that would not happen.
It was just a great way of releasing other positive things
in our lives. And when I think about the
amount of hours that we will spend looking at our devices,
what could we be doing in that time?
And I don't put that in guilt written way.

(28:38):
But in a way though, there are passions within us that I think
are being squashed and was stressed right because someone
else is controlling our time. But I worked out a sum by which
we can discern via our screen time function in our settings on

(28:58):
our phone. If I used my phone like I used
it over the last week for the rest of my life until I was 80,
how many years of my life would I spend on my phone?
And it's a frightening exercise to engage with.
I've done it with young people. I've done it with leaders and

(29:19):
the numbers you're looking at markets, it's like 20 years, 25
years. Because most of that is the new
version, isn't it? Yeah.
Of obviously Google Maps, but it's right it's frightening to
to think about and that doesn't include, you know, the time of,
you know the other, you know thetime on the Xbox or the time on

(29:39):
the net, you know, Netflix or Disney past or whatever or
whatever this thing is. And I just really believe that
none of us are gonna come to theend of our days and lay down on
our on our deathbed and reflect on our life and go, you know,
wow, it's been amazing. But.
I just I just. Wish I'd watched more TikTok

(30:01):
videos. Like nobody's going to say that
no, that nobody wants that to bethe legacy of their lives.
But how we spend our days is howwe spend our lives.
And you know, for me, I'll just,I, I have some people would
contend this and that's fine, absolutely fine.
But I have about I, I, I came toa stage where I went, OK, I'm

(30:25):
going to only access social media once per day rather than
have it as like a reflex. So I did that for a while.
And so that, that minimized my social media time to about 10 to
15 minutes per day. I would go around and check
things, reply to any messages and then that would be it.
And I wouldn't let myself check it again.
I specifically had to for a workreason.

(30:46):
I wouldn't check it again until the next day and I'd just do one
slot a day. And then.
But then about four months ago, I've deleted all my socials and
come off it completely because Ifeel like I wanted to.
Well, I, I, I felt a conviction that I wanted to do it for me.
And I found that the, the less engagement I've had, the more

(31:07):
joy of more joyful I've become. But also I wanted to model
something for my own kids and for young people that you can
live an engaged and a flourishing life and not be on
social media, which the tech firms want us to believe that it

(31:33):
is a life essential and you can't function without it.
But actually cycling background to young people, what's
happening in this generation? Yes, there's loads and loads of
digital addiction and compulsionand the pathways into
pornography via social media andsex thing and all of you know,
all of that stuff is a huge issue.

(31:55):
But there are movements now of young people all over the world
who are starting to reject that and to get dumb phones.
And that's been really interesting, just to note.
And yeah. There's advice that's not smart.
It's just. Yeah, it's a phone back to, you
know, your, your, your Nokia. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it does. It does things the brick here.

(32:15):
And some of them, some of them will allow like functions like
WhatsApp or, you know, so you can still, but you, you won't be
able to do any socials on it or that kind of stuff.
And you're seeing now young people start to engage with that
and I think that's really interesting as well.
But I'll never forget the time Iit was, it was well, mental
health day. And so we were doing a youth

(32:37):
session with our young people onon mental health.
And we did break out groups. And, and so I, I was with three
young people and having a conversation.
We were reflected on mental health.
I said, I said to them, yeah, one of the things that you think
are most helpful for your mentalhealth, that help you to to
flourish and thrive and to come alive, all that kind of stuff.

(32:59):
And they gave me some answers around that.
And I said, OK, what's what has the most negative impact on your
mental health? Now, without without blinking,
without a thought, in unison, literally in unison, they went
social media and I thought, so that's, that's interesting.
So I asked them a question. I said, so let me ask you this.

(33:23):
You're telling me that and that you feel like, you know, social
media is the thing that's havingthe most negative impact on your
mental health. If somebody was to challenge you
to take a week off of your social media for the benefit of
your own mental health, then would you do it?
No, No, I couldn't. I couldn't do that.
No, I couldn't do a week. No, that that would that would

(33:44):
be that would be possible. So they're identifying
themselves. I hadn't suggested it.
They were recognizing that this stuff was not helping them or
indeed harming them. But even though they could self
reflect on that, they could haveput it down not even for a week.

(34:06):
That's the very definition of. Addiction.
I remember another time when a young person, when we, you know,
we're in again, the breakout groups having some discussions,
not about not about social media, but this, this, this kid,
I won't say his name, played this game Madfoot.
Some people will know about it. It's basically like, you know
how we used to trade football cards on the playground back in

(34:27):
the day? It's like that but digital
version. So you open packs and football
cards, but they're on your phone.
But when we're in our discussiongroups, we said to the young
people, we not have phones at this point.
At that point, the phones go away while we're in the
discussion group. So we're in the.
Discussion group We're having this conversation.
I can see this kid just keeps looking at his phone and he, he

(34:49):
keeps glancing over to it. So I say, so I just lean against
him. I say, are you all right?
Are you all right there? And he and, and he looks at me
just and he goes just one more pack and he grabs his phone and
I'm, I promise you I'm not Maybehe grabs it and he holds it to

(35:10):
his chest like it's a baby like.And you know, it's kind of
funny, but it's also really sad.Like just the compulsion like as
his phone was over there in his eye view and he was trying to
reach for it. And it's easy for us to say,
wow, isn't that sad for a generation.
But I already, you know, just try it.

(35:31):
Try switching your phone off fora day, having a digital Sabbath
every week, and you will soon find that you have the same
compulsions that I have those same compulsions.
And what happens is this, this is this is what happens.
You know how the heart is deceitful.
Above all things, we legitimize why we can't do it.

(35:53):
Actually, I need to be contactable because my kid is
doing this or Yeah, well, I just, I just need to be able to
access it because I need to be able to do this or, or, or, you
know, another challenge would bedelete your socials for one
month, see if you can do it. Yeah.
But The thing is, I really need to do it.
They want to do it for work purposes.
And how much of that? I mean involved.

(36:14):
You're ourselves saying this. We couldn't get exactly.
And so and so my encouragement is like, if we're going to be
spiritual parents for this generation, then let's not be
asking them to do something thatwe're not willing or able to do
ourselves. But let's model in our own lives
healthy digital habits and rhythms that we can say, like

(36:38):
Paul said to his followers, imitate me as I imitate Christ.
Hey, do you use your phone like I used my phone?
That will set you up well for life with God and for a rich and
abundant life following Jesus. That's been a rich conversation.
I want to switch back to the conversation.
Yeah, quite a revival in a moment.
But that conversation hasn't just been about social media.

(37:01):
That has been about as resistingone of the biggest enemies to
affect the discipleship in our own life.
That's right. And in the lives of other people
we're leading. So it's not unspiritual.
It's not a disciplined conversation.
It's a really significant conversation just to have and I
think for a listener to reflect and review and not just a field

(37:23):
challenge, but to really make some thoughts around whether
they can instill try that digital Sabbath in the week,
whether they can limit the amount of times they engage with
it. You haven't been touched on the
nature of the posts that we've put on social media.
You know, I think. And we won't haven't got time to
go down this route. But I remember I wrote a blog

(37:44):
article a number of years ago. So people, when they put a post
on social media, they often think they're talking to their
friends. But it's more akin to standing
on the table in a restaurant. Yeah.
And. And giving your opinion.
Yeah. And you think you're in a safe
place around the table with yourfriends, but you're in a public
environment. And as soon as you say
something, it can be shared. It can go beyond.

(38:05):
Yeah. And then you get surprised when
someone on the next table standsup and shouts at you.
Yeah. Because everybody around your
table were part of your echo chamber.
That's right. He knew that there would be a
resonance, but then he got offended as someone on other
tables stood up and given their opinion.
How dare they give their opinion.
But actually in a public space, that's it.
And if you find an anxiety aboutsharing things, just remember

(38:29):
you share into a public space and we need to have the wisdom
of God in terms of how we share in that.
Context. Yeah, and.
What I'm going to that a lot more we could look at another.
Person in that there is. Let's get back to acquired
revival. So I I've been leaning into the
consideration that if there is something happening, and I
believe not just the research, not just the anecdotes, but the

(38:52):
experiences of many churches around the country are saying
something has changed. Something is stirring.
It's not just the press picking up on this.
It is church leaders saying there is something most
definitely that's happening. And I'm seeing that in manifest
in ways that people are coming to church inquiring that we

(39:13):
haven't reached out to. I'm seeing young guys.
You know, I remember a few weeksago we had like 6 young guys
come along for the first time tothis place.
I was speaking and they'd never be the chef before.
They just decided, hey, why don't we go to the chef today?
That would have been highly unusual a few years.
Yeah. It's getting more normal today.
It is, but the analogy of the story like you come back to is

(39:37):
the time the disciples were put in their necks down.
They were experienced fishermen,they were skilled and they craft
and they called nothing and Jesus provided a moment of
opportunity and said put your next on the other side.
My question is, if there is something happening and you and
I believe that there is, is there something we need to do as

(39:58):
a church to put our next down ina place that's different to the
place where we put Next up previously in order to make
sure? That this is not a wasted
moment? That the rise of spiritual
inquisitiveness is not being directed to witch talk or
Jehovah's Witnesses or some other organizational cult.

(40:19):
Is there something we need to do?
To put our heads down in a different way.
Yeah, I think there is. And for me, there's probably two
major things that I would reflect on this Mark.
And the the 1st is that these young people, young adults are
hungry for spirituality. They're not hungry to sit in a

(40:40):
church service. So if they engage in our church
services and there is no spirituality, don't be surprised
if they seek to satiate that appetite for spiritual things
somewhere else. And so.
Pam, what you mean by? Spirituality.

(41:00):
What I mean is what I mean is the the proactive stewarding of
the presence and power of God. Experience.
Spiritual experience. Let's say in spiritual
experience, encounter, Yeah, notjust information.
Exactly right. I I think of the Apostle Paul's

(41:23):
words again. He said that my message in
preaching were not with wise andpersuasive words, which I always
think is funny because if anyonehad wise and persuasive words,
it was surely Paul. But he said, no, that's not the
foundation, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's
power. Why?
So that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on

(41:45):
God's power. And I think that's a salient
word for us in this cultural moment, though, written
thousands of years ago, that we need to make a shift from, you
know, words to power where we talk about God who did stuff
once, you know, we can read about it in the pages of
Scripture. To the God who's moving now to a

(42:08):
God who's feeling now, to a God who's restoring now and saving
now and baptizing in his Holy Spirit now and encountering now.
And often. Mark OK, this is the key thing.
What I think what I've seen in youth ministry and just in
church life in general in recentyears, and the motivation for

(42:33):
this is good, is that we've saidwe want to make sure that our
gatherings are accessible for people who don't know Jesus yet.
And so we don't want to scare anybody off.
We don't want to freak anybody out.
And so we want to be, you know, seeker, sensitive, user
friendly, all of that, all of that kind of stuff.

(42:54):
And of course, we do want peoplewho have never been to church
before to be able to be in our gatherings and to be able to
understand and what's going on and to have things explained and
to feel welcome and all of that kind of stuff.
But I think what's happened, perhaps unwittingly, as a result
of that is we robbed Christianity of the thing that

(43:19):
makes it so powerful, which is the presence of God.
And it's always been provocativeto people who don't understand
it. Yeah.
You know, on the day Pentecost, Peter stood up and said this is
that he was explaining the seeker friendly part to him.
Yeah. Wasn't say hey.
Wasn't diluted. Before we go out and speak in
tongues, before we try to navigate, you know, how we

(43:42):
engage the public with this, we need to, you know, think about
what we need to turn down. It wasn't that they spill down
on the street or accused of being drunk, right?
Because they understand this. So he is expressing this is that
and that sensory part. And the scripture exhausts taste
and see two senses. And so often I think we found it

(44:05):
almost culturally normal to haveservices.
I'm going to use a bit of analogy to describe what
chocolate cake is like, and we describe the wonderful benefits
of it and then don't give it out.
And then the next level that is teach people how to make it.
Teach people how to have that inculcated their everyday life.

(44:28):
And people want to taste and they want to see and they want
to experience. And this generation, this
spiritual inquisitiveness, will not be satisfied with
information. That's right, they.
Have taste the cake. That's exactly the Kingdom of
God is not a matter of talk or power, isn't it?
And so creating those environments where we welcome

(44:49):
the presence of the power of Godto, to move amongst us, where we
expect and anticipate and proactively pray for people to
be filled with Holy Spirit and healed of their sicknesses.
And, you know, anointed with thespiritual gifts and all of those
kind of things. Like we sometimes are hesitant

(45:10):
about that stuff because we think it's going to scare people
off. But this is a generation who's
hungry for the spiritual. And my experience has been every
time I feel like, oh man, this is like, this is a bit heavy.
This is a bit crazy. What I see is a encouraging and
engagement from young people that go that and engagement that
goes up, not one that not one that diminishes.

(45:32):
Yes, we need to explain. Yes, we need to acknowledge that
there are people in the room whodon't yet know Jesus.
Yes, we can need to contextualize and help people to
go on the journey with what's happening.
All of that is true. But we do not dilute, we do not
hide from the presence of power of God and elements.
I think that's in this cultural moment.
That's a grave missional error. So this chance that they don't

(45:55):
want to turn up and be told how to drive a car from someone
showing videos and PowerPoints on the screen, They want to
experience the road. They want someone to sit down
with them and help them encounter experiences
themselves. So what things can churches do
that help orientate us towards that experiential opportunity

(46:17):
for young people today? Yeah, well.
This is a great question and forme, but the it's this very
simple answer made room for it. What I've found so often in our
on our youth gatherings in our church services is that our
program is so full from, you know, the, the songs and the

(46:42):
notices and the preach and you know, there's, there's just,
there's no space. We don't, we don't, we fear, I
think as leaders, I certainly can be certain for this.
We fear not being in control. But just to one of the things we
try to do at Limous Festival, for example, Mark is we actually
try to be quite tight on our program upfront.

(47:06):
And the reason that we do that is because we want to leave
loads of space to say, OK, Holy Spirit, whatever you want.
And you do that so well. That's very, very kind and and
God is faithful, but when we draw near to him, he draws near
to us. And I just wonder if sometime,
you know, I can imagine the Lordlooking in.

(47:27):
Can I get in there? Oh, that's not quite rude.
Could I, could I, could you squeeze me into that bit?
Can I say, could you give me? Can we just No.
But our our. Services are so far like.
Where's the space for just to, you know, and not to have to
manufacture anything, you know, but just to simply invite the

(47:47):
Holy Spirit and say Holy Spirit and some, and sometimes that
might be very quiet and peaceful, but powerful
nonetheless. And sometimes maybe that the
expression of what the Lord is doing is more over and requires
some more of that explanation. But then that's the point is
like, let him be in charge for abit and like release control and

(48:08):
give it to the Lord and just say, OK, like, and you always
get that fear mark of if I do that, we've got this 20 minutes
or whatever in the service. Like what if, what if it, what
if it doesn't? And what if, you know, what, if
nothing happens or like, you know, it's going to bomb and
then we've got nothing planned and we've got nothing.
But God is faithful and he lovesto meet with his people and you

(48:30):
know, and he comes and he's so kind and and people are rubbish
paid with that space. A few we have.
This was pressure. It is what was leaving the
service, and we had a baptism. And so there was some guests in
the room. One of the people had been
baptized as a Welsh international rugby player, and
he was getting baptized that day.
And he brought some friends. Yeah, that we didn't know who.

(48:52):
He brought the lost of them getting baptized that day.
But in the service, I reflected on some of this quite revival.
I invited all the under 30s slightly out of the Gen.
Z range, but I invited all the under 30s to come forward
because we wanted to get the church around and to pray for
them and to thank God for what he's doing this generation.
Well, of course, people visited.I probably didn't put any

(49:13):
exclusions in there. I probably should have been more
sensitive, but I, I didn't say this.
If it's your first time, don't feel obliged to afford.
I just said all you're under 30swhen you come forward, we want
to pray with you. Well, these visitors that have
come to church for the first time, this is our rugby player
be baptized, came forward. Why wouldn't they?

(49:34):
And a whole bunch of people of all ages gather around them and
pray for them. At the end of the series, I meet
them and just, you know, what's your church background with this
and all? We've never been before the
first time. And I remembered seeing them at
the front with all the other people.
And I said I really saw. We didn't feel compulsive.
I said we loved it. Like that was really different.

(49:56):
Like we feel something, something happened at that
moment. And I think in a sensitive
environment, probably in my instance, I would have thought
we need to make sure that no onein that situation feels like
they're being corralled into something they want to do.
But actually in that moment, we didn't put pressure on people

(50:17):
didn't want to go forward. They didn't have to.
But actually we would have missed an opportunity for people
to taste and see. Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, my, I, I am absolutely convinced that the way we will
reach this generation is not by creating a Christian version of
the culture, but by calling themto embrace the like, compelling

(50:40):
and radically alternative counter culture.
It's really interesting. Justin Brierley has written a
book called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God and one
of his conclusions at the end. But what do we do with all of
this? One of his conclusions is this
keep Christianity weird, and what he means by that is it it

(51:02):
is the church's difference and distinctiveness from the culture
that makes it compelling. Tom Holland says something
similar, doesn't he? I know he's Jew is out in terms
of where he's out with his faithon the journey of the book
Dominion, yes, he would say judge.
You know, you have to be courageous around those things
that don't automatically find a place in our society which is

(51:26):
going to label you as weird. It's going to put people in a
mode of question in what you're doing, but it's an integral part
of what we've got. I love that Tim.
I I could chat all day. And I want to thank you for
packing. Some gems for us today.
Just final question. I mentioned earlier on that if

(51:51):
there is a move of intrigue of interest and spirituality and we
are not there to help guide people, I can't imagine the
sense of missed opportunity thatwe will face when we stand
before the Lord. It's a miss too much of

(52:12):
opportunity. How do we make sure that we make
the most of this opportunity as churches?
And I'm aware there are some whowill be listening to this and
they've got resources of all ages in their church and it
might just be deploying some team with a bit more focus.
There are others of our churcheswhere most of the members are

(52:33):
elderly and they don't have a youth worker and they don't know
where to go with this. What?
Can we? There's some simple principles
we can put in place to try to make sure we don't miss this
opportunity. Yes.
And just to say, you know, if you're listening to this and you
are one of those churches and there aren't young people in

(52:54):
your midst and you're thinking, you know, we want to be part of
what the Lord is doing. And we want to, you know, create
an environment that young peoplecan be part of.
We want to help reach young people in our communities.
And please do reach out to us because we've got a whole
ministry called The Pioneers, which is set up to to help you
to reach young people in your communities and, and, and to do
that. And most of the links of how

(53:15):
people can. Yeah, perfect.
And so, yeah, I think, I think, you know, that thing that we've
already said, let's make sure that the the presence and power
of God is is sensual in in in our gatherings that we're making
room for that. I think the other encouragement,
Mark, that I want to give to those who like, Oh yeah.
Well, we our congregation is, you know, older in years.

(53:37):
You know, I really, I really believe that the thing that
young people are are most warnedto are churches that feel like
family. We know that so many young
people from, you know, broken homes have had challenging

(53:59):
relationships with their parentsor their guardians or their
stepparents, you know, blended families, all that fun stuff.
And the need that I see, Mark, is for spiritual parents and
grandparents to, you know, again, I think of Paul, you've
got many guides in Christ. We do not have many fathers or

(54:23):
just as a nursing mother cared for our children.
So we we cared for you. That's the that's the need for
this generation. And so yes, there's still a
place of course for your 20 something youth worker who's a
little bit closer in age, who can be the older brother, sister
and you know, understand something of youth culture, but.
There's no pressure to pretend that you're.
Back. Absolutely not, no.

(54:43):
So the the best youth workers I know are 50 plus and they don't
necessarily consider themselves to be youth workers, but they
just know how to love people andthink, think of that the best,
you know, relationship that a grandchild has with their
grandparent. And can we see that

(55:04):
intergenerational ministry happening in our church
communities? I think, I think there's a real,
real need for that as well. So I love what I understand is
the last public address that Billy Gray made.
And there were a few 100,000 young people gathered, I
believe, in Washington. And he stood out.

(55:24):
He didn't. He didn't wear a baseball cap.
He didn't take off his tie. He was himself.
That's it. Yeah, he said today, I know I'm
old enough to be your granddad, and I want to talk to you like
your granddad. Yeah.
And there was a confidence in who he was.
There was an understanding abouthis perception, how he was
perceived. But he just maximized that and

(55:47):
loved all these young people. Yeah.
And I think we don't need our older members to become youth
workers. We need them to be spiritual
grandparents. That's right, Yeah.
And, you know, this has always been true, but it's especially
true for this generation of young people, that authenticity,
authenticity Trump's relevance every single time.

(56:10):
So that's absolutely. Trump's relevance is a great.
Yeah, absolutely, 100%. But I think very finally Mark,
the last thing I want to say, yes, there are principles we can
employ. Yes, we can be aware, yes, we
can be proactive about connecting with our local
schools and doing community outreach and we can help
churches to do all of that stuffto, as you say, not miss this

(56:33):
moment. And this what is seems to me to
be a real move of God in this generation.
But my final encouragement wouldbe this.
There's a story I love him in Mark chapter 1.
And what happens is it's a it's a fruitful time in Jesus
ministry. He's with his disciples and we
read about how demons are being cast out.

(56:57):
They're sick of being healed. And it says that the whole the
whole town, the whole town. That's those are the exact words
it uses. Mark chapter 1, the whole town
is there. Imagine that happening in your
church room for a moment, your youth ministry, whatever your
context is, you know they're sick of being healed.
People are being delivered. You've got the.
Whole town queuing at your door like that.

(57:19):
It's a full scale revival, isn'tit?
And my, I don't know about you, but my reaction to that would be
right. OK, it's time for double
services, triple services. We've got to get more team,
we've got to recruit more volunteers.
We've got to do everything we can to engage the people.
And you know, and that's how I'dbe thinking about it.

(57:39):
But what Jesus does, he's up late ministering to these
people. And then in the next verse, it
says very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus
left the house and he went off to a solitary place where he
prayed. And his disciples are so
confused about this whole situation because they're like,

(58:00):
why has Jesus like gone off on his own?
There's a revival happening. People are meeting God.
And so they go and find Jesus and they and they say to him,
Jesus, everyone's looking for you, like, what are you doing?
What are you doing here? Like, is this the reason that
you came? Like it's happening now?
Like what are you come? Let's, let's engage.
That's getting involved. And if, but if, if they weren't

(58:23):
confused already, what what Jesus said next must have been
totally disorienting because Jesus replied to them is let's
go somewhere else. And the thing that it teaches me
is, is, is this, that our job inministry is not to, you know,

(58:46):
build the greatest, biggest ministry empire possible.
It's not even to assume that because it's growing, we've got
to keep going. Our job is to listen to what God
is asking us to do and to do that.
And Jesus, in the busiest momentof ministry, he takes time away.

(59:11):
From. The the busyness and the
activity of, you know, all that he was doing and out of that
time that he prioritizes in prayerful solitude with the
Father comes the counter intuitive direction of the
Spirit of God to actually leave that place where that's all
happening and to go somewhere else.

(59:32):
So that is all to say, Mark thatyes, there are principles that
we can employ. Yes, there are things that we
can do. There are things that we can
learn from looking at the socialstudies and you know, getting to
know this generation is all helpful.
But ultimately, what you've got to do, what I've got to do, what
we've got to do is listen. Listen to the Lord to discern

(59:53):
what He's asking us to do in ourcontext, in our locality, and to
do that. And that is where we will bear
the most fruit. What a great way to finish this.
Thank you so much for your time today.
Tim, you lean Limitless, which offers a whole range of things
to people and churches and leaders.

(01:00:14):
You've got podcasts that you produce in video casts that are
going out regular on a whole range of real hot potato topics.
You they're great. If people haven't connected to
those, it'd be worth of doing that.
You've got Limitless Pioneers, which help churches establish
new youth works. You've got training events with
youth leaders. You've got a festival in the
summer, which is making a massive impact in people's

(01:00:36):
lives. For people to find that
information on all of those things.
Where can they go? Is there one place you can put
them? Yeah, limitlesselim.co dot dot
UK is the hub for all of that. So yeah, you can access the
training, the events, the TV, the podcast.
And then it was pioneers, all the things you've mentioned,
none of the cnn.co. Dot UK fantastic go check it out

(01:00:56):
and go and use and make the mostof those resources.
Thank you so much for your time today, Tim.
Thank you for all that you're doing.
God bless you and maybe continueto strength and guide you and
lead you and empower you in the days ahead.
Bless you, Look. Thanks, Mom.
So what a great interview with Tim.
Lots of insights and things to really provoke our thinking
there around Gen. Z and the quiet revival and

(01:01:19):
social media and so many other things.
I pray that you have the wisdom of God as you work that stuff
out. Anyway, we look forward to
joining you next time. If you've not subscribed, do
subscribe and also do encourage those that you know in your
church to register to elim.org.uk/your Elim and that
enables them to get a multi newsletter of things that are

(01:01:41):
happening across the nation and the nations through Elian
ministries and churches. Anyway, God bless you and we
look forward to seeing you next time.
Bye bye.