How the prophetic can enhance church leadership - with Rachel Hickson

Ever wonder how the prophetic can enhance church leadership? In this new Elim Leaders Podcast episode, Rachel Hickson discusses just that!

Join Mark Pugh and Rachel Hickson as they explore integrating the prophetic into pastoral care, preaching, and more.

Discover insights on hearing God's voice and its impact on ministry. Listen in and transform your approach!

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hi, and welcome to the brand newfirst episode ever of the new
Elian Leaders podcast. We're delighted you joined us.
And my name is Mark Pugh. And today we're going to be in
this opening episode looking at can the prophetic weave its way
into all sorts of aspects of church leadership and life.

(00:22):
For example, when you're constructing a new teaching
series, can the prophetic play apart in your preparation?
Can the prophetic play a part inyour pastoring?
1 to one with people in your church or married couples in
your church? How does the prophetic weave in,
and how do we hear the voice of God in those different settings?
To help us with that, we are going to be speaking with Rachel

(00:44):
Hickson, a good friend of Elim and someone who's got lots of
experience in both loving the church and moving in the
prophetic. And she's going to help us as we
ask her some searching questions.
Why don't you share? This with other people on your
team and encourage them to tune in.
Why not subscribe as well? There'll be future episodes that
will have lots of helpful thingsto come.

(01:05):
So we would love you to subscribe and be a part of this
journey moving forward. But for now, let's get straight
in and let's talk with Rachel Hickson.
Well, real joy to spend some time with Rachel Hickson, a good
friend of Elim, someone who is minister in many of our churches
and our national conferences andis a well trusted, loved, valued

(01:27):
voice. Thank you for spending this time
with us Rachel. You know something of Elim and
you know something about history.
You have a heart to see the prophetic develop in churches.
What would you suggest would be the place for a church to start
to try and embrace the prophetic?

(01:48):
I think after we look at the prophetic, but if we even go
back one step from that, I thinkthere is that stirring for just
a hunger to know God. And so that hunger, I really
want my life to do what God wants me to do.
I really want to be an expression of his love into my
community, workspace, et cetera.So if we define maybe the

(02:12):
prophetic as being people who really know the voice of God,
are secure in ourselves that we can hear Daddy's love to us, and
then we can be a good expressionof that into our community, then
I think most of us in every church should embrace that
prophetic call. Because of course some people

(02:33):
would imagine the prophetic to be largely around what happens
in a gathered experience where someone might have a word for
someone else. But it's really broader than
that, isn't it? Surely.
Yeah, I think maybe in our more classical Pentecostal
experience, we've had that. Thus saith the Lord, Duh, duh,

(02:55):
duh. And we expect a clear
instruction sort of prefaced by that.
Thus saith the Lord and so that we've had it in very much that
church context, but I think it more and more in our 21st
century life, we need to be those that are led by God and

(03:16):
inspired by that voice and then go to people and actually where
they are confused, say do you know Jesus loves you or are you
aware that God's in your world? Are you aware God's speaking to
you and be able to demonstrate that to people.
So I think that maybe a more profound use of the prophetic is

(03:37):
actually that bridge building pastorally, bridge building
evangelistically, bridge building even Revelation
teaching wise. I know your narrative is always
this, but have they ever thoughtof that?
So that some of the prophetic can be actually provoking in the
sense of questions making peoplethink go the second journey

(03:59):
rather than thus saith the Lord and give them an answer.
So just unpack that for me a little bit because I think we
know about pastoring from knowledge or from theology or
from experience. But some of the examples you
were alluding to there would be pastoring from a prophetic flow
of ministry. What does that look like?

(04:21):
How do we pastor prophetically? How do we shepherd and care for
and lead people with a propheticmantle?
I think it's that discerning revelation where we look at
someone and we can see maybe they present or come to you and
say my marriage is really in a mess.
My mum's marriage was like this.I'm scared I'm going to go the

(04:43):
same way. And they begin to express some
of their feelings. And it's then not just listening
to the person, their trauma, distress issues, but actually
hearing the voice of God in thattoo.
And hearing the Great Shepherd saying, actually, there are root
issues here of maybe there's been generation of divorce

(05:08):
that's just cause insecurities. And so you suddenly think, ah,
this is not just about your lifeexperience and what's presenting
today, but there's some back story here, which actually Jesus
knows and you can ask them, you know, are you aware that there's
been divorced? Well, we are my parents, this
one there. Has that caused trauma?

(05:29):
What's happened? Do you realize there can be
healing. So it's sometimes just that
revelation with knowledge working together.
So if I go back to a situation you sat pastorally, you've got a
couple in front of you that are going through difficulties with
their marriage. If I'm hearing you credit,
there's almost like 3 voices that could be going on in your
in your life as the pastor in our situation.

(05:52):
One is the voice of those peoplethat are presenting their
situation. The 2nd, and this is quite a
loud voice in terms of my experience on this, is that
there's an inner voice in me that is trying to predict
exactly what the issue is. From my experience and the.
Solution. Trying to bring that answer.
I think particularly for us maleguys, often, you know, we want

(06:12):
to get to the answer, but a third voice of the Spirit.
And the first two voices can be so dominant and so loud that we
can miss that voice of the Spirit, that prophetic insight
and revelation that you're talking of.
How do we tame the noise of the other voices in order to give
space to hear that voice of God?It's almost the cliche.

(06:35):
Practice makes perfect. So it's almost quite often in my
head. I'm a talker, you know me.
I like to think I'm strategic. But often I say to myself,
Rachel, Shush 123, you know, it's that whole thing of
learning to listen. Yes, you're listening to the

(06:56):
narrative come to you and don't let the oh, we'll fix this.
That's obvious. You're not listening
communication. Where's the money?
You know, you're running ahead. But it's like SH listen, listen,
listen. Often it's not just listening to
the words body language, facial.You can just sometimes you look

(07:17):
at them and think, wow, you're wound up really stressed.
What's that agitation in you or in the other guy?
You just feel fuming anger. You think, wow, there's a little
volcano going there. So it's looking beyond what is
seen, what is being said and asking, Holy Spirit, is that
what should I be seeing that maybe isn't obvious.

(07:40):
What should I hear that isn't there Touch body language?
And I think that's a learnt thing.
And I think sometimes we just need to put that together.
Iron Sharp and Zion. We talk about fivefold ministry,
but how would prophets and pastors work together?
Often we present them as opposites, anticipates in a

(08:02):
team, but I believe they can become great helpers and you can
actually help. Did you notice that?
I've wondered this and you can feed maybe into past all people
you know, I've watched this couple I've just felt Jesus say
maybe this and even if you're not present, work
collaboratively. We'll touch more on that

(08:24):
fivefold in a moment because that's a a wonderful area that I
think we need to unpack. But if I go to back to this, the
voices, because there's another forum that as leaders, pastors,
we are often involved in hearingmultiple voices.
That's what we're preaching. We might have our notes in front
of us and we'll look out of the congregation and we see someone

(08:45):
who's disengaged. We see someone who's surfing the
Internet on their phone. We hear a kid crying in the
distant. We got our insecurities that are
speaking to us and telling us weshould do a better job of
keeping their attention. All these things and yet
creating space for the Spirit ofthe Lord to lead us and guide us
in our words, beyond our script,beyond our preparation.

(09:07):
How do you do that? Because I've seen you preach
wonderfully where there seems tobe a high level of preparation,
but there also seems to be an openness to the spontaneity of
the Spirit speaking to you and leading you.
How do you make that work in your life?
I suppose I've always done that a little bit and I am highly

(09:27):
prepared. That's just I suppose to counter
the prophet people. Oh, I just let the Spirit leave
me. I don't need to I I feel that we
need to be scholars and teachersand well prepared and in that
place of both prayer and preparation.
There is that I don't know inside I have this little
conversation. Come on, Jesus, what are you

(09:48):
thinking here? What we going there?
But when I come to preach again and again, I find that during
the worship I sense atmospheres so that you don't just stand up
when you preach, but you walk into a room and you discern
what's happening in this space. And what do I pick up?
In my spirit, God, let me not just speak information, but let

(10:12):
me bring an impartation that actually I'm addressing heavenly
atmospheres as well as giving instruction.
So all the time there's that bilingual conversation going in
my head. And when you pick up something
in the atmosphere that you didn't predict or you didn't
expect, your preparation didn't reveal to you, how do you

(10:34):
process that and what do you then do?
So sometimes I will then be asking God what's my
illustration like? Just recently I was preaching 2
services on an Easter Sunday. I prepared, had really prayed
over my illustrations because I feel the illustrations are often
the things that personalize it for people.

(10:55):
They ground it and so did it. Felt it was good, really saw
response altical. And the illustration I'd used
was about actually a Muslim man and his hunger for God in that
first service. And I had seen two Muslims
actually come forward and Gordon, my husband, to pray with

(11:16):
us. So I felt a little bit like,
thank you, Jesus. That's great.
So stand up for second service worshiping and immediately felt
Holy Spirit saying, you need a different illustration.
I'm like, God, no, I've really prayed and I got the detail and
it fitted in, but I just kept feeling and I just knew it.
So then it came time transition.Mike was put in my hand.

(11:39):
I'm down, I'm just waiting. And actually the person who was
sort of the shaper of the whole of the sun, he was still there
and I just said you need to praywith me.
God told me I had to change the illustration, but I have no
idea. And he said but it was great.
And then, and I'm just thinking,so anyway, I'm preaching the

(12:02):
illustration is towards the end.And as I get there, God just
said to me, it's Canada. And I remember the story of a
girl called Grace in Canada thathad ministered to.
So I told the story at the end of the service, our children's
worker pastor came to me, said you've got to meet my sister.
She's absolutely in tears. Went and found her and I said,

(12:27):
so what's your name? She said, well, didn't my sister
tell you? I said, yeah, She told me that
the illustration I use is devastating.
She's well, my name's Grace. And this illustration I'd used
of this girl, Grace so mirrored her story.
And this girl, my children's pastor's sister had been with

(12:47):
Jesus, etcetera, walked away. And that Sunday I had so told
her story, she sat Easter Sunday, having come to church
with her family, cried away backto God and just said, I never
ever have been an experience like that.
How did God know me? So I I suppose one of the main
things that as a preacher, I'm thinking illustration, because

(13:10):
Jesus taught parables and stories and again and again it
was those stories that made people go, oh wow.
So I think the power of the right story at the right time
and listening and you know, what's their name, what's their
age, what's their sort of cultural position, their job,
etcetera, all those things. Just shifting that by listening.

(13:34):
God, who am I talking to? Who in this room catching
people's faces and just think Jesus has got a message for you.
So what's going on in you and just tilting it.
I think that's what I do a lot. You do that so well.
I've seen you do that many times.
How do you, I'm going to ask youa two-part question really in
response to that. One of them is how do you get

(13:57):
that clarity that God told me tochange the story and he gave me
the one about grace in Canada. How do you how have you learned
to craft an understanding that is God speaking rather than just
your ideas? And the second, do you believe
that all ministries, even if they're not carrying a largely

(14:18):
prophetic gift, you believe thatGod wants to interact through
all of his preachers, all of hiscommunicators, with that
sensitivity and that discernment?
So first question, how do you upgrade that sensitivity?
I suppose there's a little part of me that's always a little
girl with Daddy, and he's alwayslike Rachel Jump.

(14:41):
And I say really jump. Oh, I landed OK.
And there's, I don't think, if I'm honest, I don't know, maybe
someone out there will contradict me, but certainly for
me, you ever get past that start?
This is scary and. You still feel that now?
Oh yeah, every time. Usually for a big occasion, not

(15:04):
all the time all the way, but there is always that slight
pushback of no, I do believe I am a believer.
God does speak to me. But you, you learn his voice
more and more. And it's almost that intuitive
Jesus thing that well, yeah, this is how he speaks to me.

(15:24):
So let's go for it. So I've begun to trust more and
more that what I think is randomthoughts are actually Jesus
thoughts because it when I'm in that space, my cry is help me
Jesus, I want to serve. So if I'm talking to him, he
will talk to me. Have I got it wrong?
Yes, but then you say sorry, sometimes in the more preaching

(15:47):
place you always have a bit morewriggle room.
I'm not. So I know there is someone here
at this age on this birth date etcetera.
I don't do that. Sometimes in the private space,
you know, when I'm prophesying over an individual, I've said,
well I believe you've done this and this in person should know
that's not true. I said, OK, sorry, then maybe

(16:09):
I've not heard. I'm quite pictorial.
So sometimes I can see a pictureand think, oh, that means that.
And I've jumped. And so then I back up and say
I'm really sorry, this was a picture.
I saw this. Oh, well, that was the picture
that was, I'm thinking one, I'm thinking recently because I saw
this picture on me associated itwith marriage because it seemed

(16:31):
quite an intimate sort of picture.
So I described the picture to him and I said, Oh well, I
thought this was about you beingmarried in an intimate relation.
He said no, that was a picture on my parents bedside.
And so I said OK, sorry, so the relationship here is to do with
your parents. And he just cried and he said,

(16:51):
yeah, I'm going through a hard time.
So because I was pictural, I hadjumped to my own conclusions.
And then I prophesied over him and he's and I like, I think
it's important we give people permissions to say that doesn't
fit and say, OK, well, this was actually picture.
This was my process. Where did I go wrong?

(17:12):
And he was able to say here, it's nothing to do with me and a
girl, it was my parents. Before I ask you to pick up the
second part of that question, which is about can everybody
who's a preacher expect to move in an awareness of the Spirit
speaking to them in this way? Before I do that, just touch on
something you were just saying, which is when you maybe use an

(17:34):
illustration about grace in Canada, it doesn't have as
higher risk to it that if no onecomes to see you at the end of
the service, it's just another illustration for most people.
So it's not, you know, significant.
But I know recently I was praying for a particular
situation for somebody and I felt God say send them a text to
say, to say you're praying for them that this will be resolved

(17:56):
today. So I started typing out a text
and I put just been praying for you that your situation be
resolved. And I was just supposed to press
send. And I felt Lordy's spirits say
you didn't use the word today. So I went back and I felt really
awkward because this person's not a believer.
And I thought if this doesn't happen today, it's going to look
bad on God and those dilemmas. Now I went back, I added the

(18:20):
word today, I sent it off and itdidn't get resolved that day.
So either I'm hearing wrong or there's part of that story I
don't understand right now. But it's those moments when you
step out into something that feels like if this isn't right,
there's two elements that I think one of them is our own
reputation, the personal stakeholder that we become in

(18:44):
that moment. And that's a big part of our
fear. The other part is that we make
God look silly because if he didsay it and it hasn't happened,
then that's a problem. How do you navigate those times
when it feels like there's a higher degree of risk in sharing
something that you feel led to share?

(19:05):
Usually I'm a bit like you. I'm a coward and I Lord, please
no, I don't want to have to do that.
That's. Reassuring to know that someone
who's got a strong prophetic gift feels like that, because I
think a lot of us feel like that.
Yeah, because exactly that. It's the integrity of God and
then my humiliation and my integrity.
How do I handle that? I think more and more for myself

(19:31):
personally, I've learned the story.
And sometimes if I'm not, I'm totally confident or feel even
by pressing the time button because I think timing is often
where we can skew it. Like God has used me to pray for
many people to have babies. I believe next year you'll have
a baby. And when you've watched people

(19:54):
go through that, that is often when I want to duck and dive and
wriggle. And when I believe that God will
give you a child is much. I'm more comfortable still risk,
but next year you haven't got somuch wriggle room.
And so in some of those I've been a little bit more, if I'm

(20:14):
really honest. I felt it strongly and I said I
really believe that it's urgent to God and urgent to you.
And I believe that we can stand together and trust for next
year. Sometimes I take the cow, the
God said, but I believe we can pray to going to stand and take
some of the weight off that evenoff them and just then say God,

(20:35):
I'm sorry, but there are times when I say thus you feel that
thus saith the Lord. So I've learnt to maybe just
catch that. I don't know whether that's good
news or bad news, but just in myjourney, I've just felt because
of that. The coaching is quite an
interesting 1, isn't it? Because I, I know I was speaking

(20:56):
recently in a church and I felt there were high degrees of shame
in the church. Didn't have any particular word
of knowledge as to what that shame was about, but I just felt
that it was almost like a straitjacket on numerous people
in the church. Now, I didn't get up and say I
believe as I've been praying forthe service that God's revealed
that people here were shame. But you speak into that.
It just feels like part of the sermon apart of the flow.

(21:18):
I guess what I'm doing in that moment is coaching it.
Does that take some of the impact away?
No, I don't think it always doesbecause you're, again, we're
bilingual. So in my spirit I might be
softening it to the person, but in my spirit I'm saying and in
Jesus name, every spirit of shame, every assignment of

(21:39):
shame, I'm speaking to you and you come down and you're not
going to hold and lock these people up in shame anymore.
But I might be speaking to the person in a more conciliatory
way, especially if it's Sunday morning, to just give because
you don't know first time in church and you want to give them
that sort of bridge of empathy and stuff.

(22:02):
So we can do it pastorally in one language, but in that
prophetic part of yours, it's like you speaking to the
heavens. You know, we don't fight flesh
and blood, but we are having a battle.
And so I think most of us that that preach, we understand that
dynamic that you are speaking topeople and you're shut up.

(22:23):
So I think that's where I don't couch it.
It's like, I see you, you stop this.
So, but I think there's wisdom, you know, again and again, the
Bible be seasoned with grace in Colossians.
What does that all look like? Even for prophets?
I don't think prophets have the right to be rude and difficult

(22:46):
and everyone else is gracious. There is there is a way in which
we can present the Word of God as fresh bread that's appealing
but not sanitized. Should we avoid the timings
issue completely? I remember picking up with a
profit a number of years ago that there were some words that

(23:06):
have been given that were just like you sort of example, the
next six months, 12 months, two years that a certain dramatic
thing is going to happen to you and they're quite easily tested
and quickly tested. And I just wanted to feedback to
this visiting profit that we wanted to say it didn't happen.
And the the outcome of that is that individual begins to

(23:30):
discount all of the word becausethe timing hasn't matched.
So it then gets torn up, shredded and put in the bin.
When I spoke to that prophet, they were saying, well, I didn't
hear God give like a narrative that said six months.
I felt there was an urgency in my spirit that it was going to
happen fairly soon. And I interpret urgency as six

(23:52):
months. I thought that was quite
interesting. Is that how a lot of people who
work in the prophetic operate, and should they do that?
I I think timing is always that Achilles heel and I think we
need to be careful and I think as prophetic people, we need to
own it and say, actually, I shouldn't have put it.

(24:13):
But I do think when it when you know that God said that time,
you should go with it. And so I'm more cautious with
time than my last years. I would have been more.
I feel it's that feel. It's that there's been a few
instances. I was up in Peterborough and
there was a businessman, his name was Ian.
And he came to me and he just said Sunday service after

(24:37):
service he said, Rachel, have you got a word for me?
Because I prayed and I felt you'd have a word.
And I just looked and I said, actually I do.
It's good news and bad news. And he looked to me and said I
seriously don't need any bad news.
And I said, well that's fine, gopray about it, find someone that

(25:00):
you really trust and if you wantthe word come back and let's do
it. So he went and found it's a
great church, really good people.
So he went and found a prayer partner and I said I'd like a
pastoral leader. So they came.
So he said OK, I have the bad news 1st and things.
So I said OK, this is what I felt God say that.
And God did give me a strategy that had time.

(25:23):
You need to hold where you are for six months.
And that is going to be difficult and challenging.
This is the bad news. And you're going to have to make
some very life defining choices to hold that six months.
But six months, there will be a shift.
And at that point those floodgates, the financial gates

(25:44):
that have been so shut are goingto become floodgates and it will
open and you will enter a whole new sphere of your business,
etcetera. But you're still on six months
constraint. And he looked at me and he said
that will be a death sentence. And I said I'm really sorry.
I felt that. I'm not asking you to do
anything about it. Please go pray and consider it.

(26:05):
And you've got a past and you'vegot an intercessor here way.
Well, he said I've got a board meeting in a few days time.
He went to it. He actually ran a micro sort of
chip company that makes internalsort of circuit boards for
games, etcetera. And he had a huge contract into
China with a competitor and his part of the contract was

(26:29):
diminishing, the other competitor was increasing.
And so he was actually having board meetings to shrink his
business by 1/3. But and he came back and he said
you said six months hold. What does that mean?
I said I had a sense that you were going to change and shift
modus operandus in your company,but you were to hold it where it
is for six months. He said, well, that would

(26:51):
bankrupt me. I said, OK, I could be totally
wrong because I don't know what your business is.
Whatever. He went back, prayed about it.
He decided to hold six months tothe day the Chinese phoned him
and said can you start production today?
We've got this order and he saidI can.

(27:13):
He hadn't sacked or fired any ofhis people.
They were in. The other competitors have cut
back because the industry decreased and they couldn't get
it. He then went into the most
explosive part of the whole of his thing.
It exploded. So that was a time I did give a
time and actually that time was crucial.

(27:33):
So should we never do it? Not sure.
Should we be careful? Yes.
Should we explain it, give people time because I realized
what I was doing the more I talked to him and I go, Lord
have mercy. Should that fall all on my
shoulders? Should I be accountable?
Should I put him in a secure place pastorally helpful,

(27:53):
etcetera. Definitely.
And thank you, Jesus. Actually all of us, it wasn't
just me, the pastoral person, the prayer person, all working
with you through that season, actually I believe bought a good
outcome and God had the glory and actually phenomenal.
Wow, praise God. So.
So back to the second part of that question, you asked earlier

(28:17):
around do you believe that irrespective of what someone's
fundamental or core grace is on their life that they can should
expect and be open to the Spiritof God?
Drop in prompts into their preaching, into their pastoring,
into their leadership. Yes, I'm a prophet.

(28:38):
No, I believe that we are earth to heaven and heaven to earth
people. So some people are going to work
from more study reflective, you know, earth from that part.
But as they lift their face to heaven, I always believe that
Jesus is going to say what aboutthis, what about that?
So I feel there should always bethat flexibility, adaptability.

(29:04):
So we often say the teacher is more grounded, rational, process
thinking, learning. As many of you know, I work with
Helen Aza very closely. Well, I've watched an incredible
teacher get a prophetic sort of vibe, etcetera, so that she can
actually interpret the times in the tribe of Isaca.

(29:26):
They understand the times, but also they're able to interpret,
decipher. So I feel that that sort of
marriage is powerful. Help me with that a little bit.
Some of our teachers, our teachers would probably have
some of the best book collections and some of the best
online resources. And so in preparation for
something they're going to teach, they would consult all of

(29:48):
those concordances and study guides and so on, and they would
really engage with material in depth.
I wonder whether there is or wasan instinct in them to say, you
know, could be no, God can speakfor that.
I wonder if there's an instinct to say, Holy Spirit, What do you
want to say through this? Is there something you want to

(30:09):
communicate that I'm missing that other people are not
saying? So it's not just sourcing.
Do you think that you see teachers have a propensity to do
that? Certainly I know you would want
to stir them up to do that. What would you give maybe as a
tip to them to try to help them engage that prophetic
understanding in their teaching?Well, sometimes it's even going

(30:33):
back. Well, which course should I
teach at this time? Because I mean, we've got the
whole Bible. And so it's like, what's the
sound resonating in the church, in the land?
What do people really need training in at this time?
So healing, miracles, signs, wonders.
Oh, well, that's just the evangelist prophets saying no,

(30:55):
come on, teach us. And so look at what the Spirit
is saying and actually look at how you can amplify the
instruction of it. So I think sometimes it's not
necessarily in the, the detailedpresentation of that teaching,
but it's in the, the, the focus of the slant or the bias in that

(31:20):
teaching. So we're going to talk marriage
or purity or what are the subjects resonating?
We just have had a discussion with our core team, you know,
curricula or whatever, and the word kindness came up.
So I said, well, what do you think we mean by kindness?
The fruit of the spirit is kindness.
Has someone taught in it? And people went, oh, so I said,

(31:44):
well, go have a look at it. I said, I do know kindness kin
kith and kin is to do with covenant that comes actually
from family room. I think look, so one of our
teachers was like, oh, and so I think that's where it can be
helpful. And then they can really dig in.
So even before they were in their study looking am I really

(32:05):
going to amplify teach into something which the Holy Spirit
is saying hello church like you to upgrade your knowledge here.
So that's the first way. Then the other way.
I mean, Simon Ponceveer is a really good friend.
We love him. And so we were in Saint all days
together. So we would often spark and he'd
come to me and said, OK, Rachel,I'm going to teach you.

(32:26):
I'm coming now. You often think outside the box.
How do you interpret this scripture?
Do you have another? And so and then we would spa for
a while. He said I like that.
Not sure about that thing going away.
Think about it. I think sometimes talk for like
teachers talk outside your box and your you know, Spurgeon,

(32:48):
etcetera, etcetera. John thought, you know, think
about ask, dare to ask prophet. Well, what would your summary of
this be? And sometimes that can just give
us a different perspective. I love that.
And I think probably in a lot ofPentecostal leadership circles,
the expectation on the people who are bringing prime

(33:10):
leadership is that there's a lotof individual behind closed
doors prep and study. You just made it sound like
there's team potential involvement in even the
construction of the thematic series, the content that could
be in there that would be quite different to a lot of our

(33:31):
leaders experience. How would you encourage them to
go about finding people that cancontribute to that part of that
journey? It could be people in their
church doesn't have to be comingto, you know, someone who's
massively experienced IU. It could be ways of just
inviting people with different graces and gifts on their life
to come and be a part of that. How would you advise them to
consider doing something that's been private, something that's

(33:51):
been behind closed doors, and then opening that process up to
others? I think that's one of the
privileges of being a girl preacher.
One of my underlying terrors wasI'm a girl.
I'll be in theologically error. So from the very early days of
preaching, I was always like, please help me, please talk to

(34:12):
me, please speaking to me. I want to make sure I'm here.
So I think just that humility that actually says maybe I don't
understand it all. And so from very early on, I
asked people who are respected, intrigued me, talk to them, chat
to them and just develop that conversation.

(34:34):
So I think just us people interest.
I always say to all my leaders, read something you know, you'll
disagree, you'll disagree with. Challenge yourself theology.
So why do I feel so strongly? This is the way.
Talk to someone who has a different, you know, if you're
being highly justice, talk to someone who's highly compassion

(34:59):
says, yeah, you're not being very kind.
That might be right. But what about and find some of
the synthesis and that. So obviously if you're doing
every single Sunday, you might think how Rachel, but if you're
doing your whole subject, just keeping your blind spots
covered, I think I've always done that and I think it's quite

(35:20):
a healthy way because it breaks down some of that.
I know I'm right. Listen to me, I'm the expert.
And I wonder sometimes whether there are people in our
congregations, they don't have to be gifted preachers or
experienced leaders, but they dohave observations and
experiences in their walk and life that could help shape some
of these things. And it's not the way of

(35:41):
compromising our preaching responsibilities, but it's just
that we are opening up the perspective.
You know, when there's an insurance claim for a car
accident, if they don't just take one witness statement, they
take as many because they can, because everyone will see
something slightly different. And that can be quite an
exciting process, can't it, for people in ministry.

(36:03):
So picking up on this theme a little bit further, something
you mentioned earlier on was around the apest around the
Apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic shepherds and
teachers. And we're going to be going on
quite a journey with this in elim where we are going to help
people discern the graces that are most present in their lives.
Because we've I think we've called people leader and it's

(36:26):
meant a bit of everything. I think we've overplayed the
word leader. I think there are people that
have got a strong shepherding grace that we've been exposing
them to Apostolic ministries that have been talking about big
vision. Go get them, you know, go and
innovate and have fresh pioneering in your spirit.
And some of our shepherds have gone away from those moments

(36:46):
feeling firstly inspired by their story, but secondly,
inadequate because it's not their instinct.
And that's not because their failures, it's because they've
got a different grace. They've got a shepherding grace.
So the interaction of all of these graces together.
How does the prophet work with these different graces?

(37:10):
We all can imagine it being quite problematic to a shepherd
because you do like, like you. You are an exceptional prophet.
And as much as you you over the years, you've crafted your
ability to ensure that loving the people of God and loving the
church is your top priority, notall people with prophetic grace
have crafted that bit quite as well as you have.

(37:33):
So they can be a little bit bullin a China shop, can't they?
That's true. And and the pastors don't want
the China messed with. Why would we invite the bull in?
How do we appreciate the differences?
How do we welcome the prophetic,whatever our grace is?
Yeah. So I often think actually

(37:54):
prophet pastor, it is one of themost powerful combinations
because if you think of the pastor as the cardiologist, he
deals with the heart, matters ofthe heart.
And you know, the heart is deceitful above all things.
So actually there is a net necessity for good discernment

(38:15):
to really help heart issues really get dealt with.
So some pastors they want to love, embrace, but actually you
need to reveal and release as well.
I'm married to a pastor, so that's probably helped me.
I've had 43 years of being married to a top level pastor

(38:38):
and so that to. Be the part of crafting, you
prophetic. I think he has, of course.
I think I came from a household which was very dust of the Lord.
You're a Sinner sort it, you think, and Gorman go seriously,
Rachel, that's mean. So I think he has, you know, I'm
glad that I'm not a a bull in the challenge shop, but I think

(38:58):
Gordon has got a lot of that shaping.
So right there you see the good shaping of a pastor and a
prophet working together. And that's interesting because
there's a a covenantal marriage relationship that's more
important than the working out of the grace in each of you.
So in a sense you can say some of those tough things and not be
threatened that it's going to destroy the relationship.

(39:19):
You know, in many ways I see thefaithful ministry graces in the
church are part of that covenantrelationship.
We a call to the body of Christ.But of course, it feels like
people who don't see eye to eye,that they don't like the style
of someone else. They just start their own echo
chamber with their own group of people that say it the same way

(39:39):
as they would. And church history is littered
with that, isn't it? Sad.
It really sad, really, really sad.
I believe that actually, if the the five gifts were given to the
church, to the help the church mature and grow up, so that if
as prophets we exclude and become exclusive and then

(40:01):
spectate, we've missed our very role because I absolutely
believe that we should be. We're foundational.
Ephesians 220. Apostles and prophets should get
down low and be not seen and really supporting undergirding.
We have the privilege of laying down.

(40:22):
And so if we come in in a humility and say to the pastoral
team, so I in the churches we'veLED, I used to work closely with
our pastoral teams and they would bring the because we have
prayer requests, They would come.
Then we would put our pastoral visit thing and often they'd run

(40:43):
it past me. This one, this one, this one,
this family, anything you feel say, oh, that family, I've been
praying for them. I've wondered if there's a
problem with this, this, this. Well, that's interesting.
What what makes you say that? Because I've noticed this in
their children. I've noticed some stuff.
I just think there's an occulticsort of something there.
There's some curse there. It just don't OK, world back.

(41:06):
And so just going through with apastoral team that way I don't
necessarily have to go in and say I see witchcraft in your
family line da da da, da da, butI can give tools to the pastors,
the shepherds, so they know whether they've got the the rod
or the staff and how to comfort.So I think some of that

(41:27):
collaboration and talking and saying, what do you feel?
What do you feel then the evangelist, you know, the God of
this age has blinded their mindsso they cannot believe.
Well, where are you going? Which part of town are you going
to do it in? Because I believe part of the
prophet is the heaven openers. They they carry a break as
anointing. So they should go to the prayer

(41:47):
room. OK, if you're going there, we're
going to really ask God, show uswhat goes on in that area.
What are the key strongholds? What are the gods of this age
that are blinding that we can come against in this spirit to
open up the spirit realm so thatyou could speak in the natural.
So I think Avengers and prophetsshould be good for him, but
often they're not. And because, you know, it's

(42:10):
like, oh, you just shout at everyone and cause mayhem, but
we which is I it is fair accusation.
Yeah, and history, history has shown a little bit of a cycle of
this where that's happened and then the church kicks back
against the prophetic and the prophetic goes into hiding for a
while and all. Victimisation and resentment,

(42:30):
and then they become even more aggressive and.
And, and it's always sad when you see that because it ends up
with an absence of something that God's designed to be a
critical part of the church. I love that picture of you and
Gordon as the pastor and the prophet, that you have both, it
would seem to me, shaped each other's grace and both being

(42:51):
shaped by each other's grace. That's really beautiful.
And I think that's probably God's plan for the five fourth
ministry, that we're all shaped by one another, but we're all
part of shaping one another as well.
That's that's a really great picture.
Loads more I could chat to on that.
Yeah. But one more thing on the
prophetic and think the prophetic is a pioneering.

(43:11):
So it is a lead. It does lead the way.
It does risk, it does direct. So again, as leadership is there
insecure insecurity there? It can feel the profits taking
over. So like for Gordon and I, we had
to really work that out. Gordon, I see this.
No, don't do that, please. I really feel strongly no Am I

(43:32):
now bossing my husband and we had to work all that out?
Am I being too bossy? So I would often lead the way
and then sometimes it's like, oh, this is not looking good.
I need help. And Gordon is an incredible
facilitator and he would be ableto bring people and right people
and help me build team, etcetera.

(43:54):
And so sometimes our leadership definition will we're leaders.
And so and so, you know, the pastor teacher is the leader of
the church, but with their gift pastor leader to actually be the
initiator is a you were saying, you know, some passes a big ask
because actually your Apostolic prophetic is your initiating

(44:17):
gift, but they might not have the managerial responsibility.
So how are you going to work together?
And I've watched that cause confusion too.
And certainly in our marriage 43years on, Gordon just says, what
are you feeling what you're sensing?
I'm saying, should we do this? And he says yeah, let me think
about it. And then he'll put strategy and

(44:38):
we've got much better and I've got more secure and I can make
the big arse, make the big direct, but I'm not taking over
because he's coming. So who's the greater leader?
Who is the boss leader? It you know, it becomes
irrelevant in the end because. Being bossy isn't just around
sort of giving that directive lead.

(44:59):
You could be bossy by refusing to move forward, you know, and
that plays in every direction. And that gets this mutual
honour, this mutual respect, this mutual commitment to
realizing that we only really can truly represent the Lord
when we are reflecting all fibres.
But a couple more things I want to talk on before we finish this

(45:21):
time together. One of them is that there are
people listening to this that have carried some personal
injury and disappointment regarding the prophetic.
There are people who have received words that haven't come
about and therefore they are nowcynical and shy of prophetic

(45:46):
ministry. How would you advise someone who
they're listening to this? They feel stirred, that they
need to embrace the prophetic. How would you advise them to get
past that sense of cynicism to the gift?
I think first of all, I'm sorry because I feel that's so sad

(46:08):
because it actually isolates you.
And if we go back to maybe the original definition of prophetic
in the sense of positioning myself to hear the voice of God,
I think we all want to do that. Where there have been people who
have been representative of thatvoice, who have shared a word
which is felt dominating or has just been false.

(46:34):
I think we come to that beautiful 1 Corinthians 13 for
we see in part prophecy in part,and I think maybe we can be
gracious and just say, OK, Jesus, that was not great.
I don't think that was a word and draw a line in the sand.
And I know that can be easy saidthan done, especially if it had

(46:56):
huge consequences like I sold myhouse and moved.
I've heard some of those storiesand it always makes me go, oh,
Jesus, that's scary horrible. Don't like it.
But I feel that if we're going to live in that isolation of
what disappointment and resentment does and lose the
voice of God to lead direct us today, that's a high price.

(47:18):
So my thing is, maybe you could just come to Jesus and put a
line in the sand, find some forgiveness to say, actually
write those words down and put them on the altar and say, God,
I don't understand what that was.
I feel misled, I felt manipulated, feel disappointed.
But God, I give it to you and surrender it back to God.

(47:42):
And I'm sorry for the pain and ask him to say, God teach me to
trust again because I think if we lose our trust of his voice,
we're going to be lonely. And I think the enemy always
rob, kills, steals, destroys. And I would hate that in your
ministry, in your marriage, in your family, community space

(48:04):
that you feel robbed of that intimacy of the voice of God for
the rest of your life. And I know it's easier said than
done, but sure, a lie and surrender and ask God to take
you on a new journey of trust. Beautiful.
It's one of the few gifts in theScripture that seems to be
followed up with that instruction that we should weigh

(48:27):
up. And I see within that there are
well meaning people in our churches, maybe even us well
meaning leaders that are discerning, sensing, being
stirred by something and we share sometimes out of that.
And I've, and I've seen people in church like share probably I

(48:51):
can't tell whether they're sharing from just a well meaning
love for the person or whether it's prophetic.
And and I see that the needs forus to teach our congregations on
how to discern and weigh up is really important.
What tips would you give people to weigh up the prophetic?

(49:12):
I mean, all these instructions, if you give rules, then I always
can think to myself, oh, I'll break it here, but I think
general protocol should be don'tgive real directional words to
people on their own in an isolated place where once they
hear that word, they can feel vulnerable.
Like I, I've given illustrations, I called Ian in

(49:36):
for a very deep prophetic word, but I made sure there was a
pastoral person and people make sure people are there,
especially if it's going to be more directional these days.
You've got a phone, use the voice thing, record it and then
be accountable to it in the pairso that that person, even if

(49:57):
there's not someone there, can go to their pastor with the
recording and say this is what happened.
Rachel said it. I was confused here.
Could we talk? And I feel if you want to be a
voice of God, then we also have to be humble enough to finish
conversations. Because sometimes I've been able
to go back to cup and say, yeah,but what I saw was this, this

(50:17):
and this. This is, oh, that makes sense.
We need to do this. So I think record it, Hold it,
the weighing up of it in the Greek and in my understanding of
that, it's not only just the discernment of if it's right or
wrong, but it's the weighty, it's the barrows, it's what's
the anointed weight in it. And there's so that the prophets

(50:42):
were called to actually say the unction glitchy can't weigh it.
What was the weight of authorityand thing on it?
So some people who may be very new in the gift can do stuff and
it's a little bit more what I call Penguins and things and
life and that and it's a bit of everything.
And if you give it to more of a prophet, prophet council, they

(51:04):
say actually that has a bit of mixture in it.
Some of the weight of that word is mixed.
So I think it's learning some ofthat as well.
Beautiful. And just finally, if somebody
listening to this has given prophetic words to people in the
past that have not been evidenced as true words, and

(51:31):
they felt awkward about that ever since, and maybe they've
ducked and dived and avoided, what should they do about that?
I think, sorry, go back, talk tothe person, say, you know, I've
had this memory of this word, I'm really sorry.
I know that it hasn't happened. Is there anything I can do?

(51:52):
Can I pray with you, etcetera. I mean, in the end, the way that
we do authentic relationship is face to face, eyes to eyes.
If you still are able to contactthem, then break that shame,
etcetera on you. But don't let it limit you for
the rest of our life. I think we've all got it wrong

(52:12):
and we've all maybe over emphasised or over pressured and
if we can do everything, I mean the prophetic ministry is no
different from anything else. Do it with humility to the heart
that's ready to serve and be corrected.
We're not God, we only carry a message that comes from God.

(52:33):
There's a big difference. Rachel, I always enjoy our
conversations together. I always feel enriched by your
wisdom and by your experience. People can access a wealth of
great resources of books that you've written.
How can they do that? How can they get hold of your
books? We are hotcry.co, uk.co.uk or

(52:55):
Amazon. Rachel's a formidable writer and
she's written great resources and encourage you to get hold of
those to get more of her wisdom and insight.
Thank you so much for being withus, Rachel.
God bless you and Gordon really appreciate this time with you.
So there we have it, our very first episode.
You come to the end, and I hope that was super helpful for you.
And I pray that as all of us really open up our hearts to

(53:18):
discern the Lord and to get closer to Him and to hear His
voice and to understand how His voice can impact those that we
have the privilege and the pleasure of eating.
I pray this will have been helpful to you today.
God bless you as you seek to meditate and think.
And even. Practice what we've looked at
today. God bless.