May 20, 2025 • 57 mins
Explore the challenges that neurodiverse individuals face trying to fit into a neurotypical church environment, how church settings, practices, and expectations can unintentionally create barriers for neurodiverse individuals, and highlight practical ways churches can foster an environment of understanding and accessibility.
Ishbel Straker is the CEO and founder of I. Straker Consultants and is recognised as an expert in the field of addiction and the treatment of co-existing mental health problems.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So thank you. And you're here because you're
interested in it. You're here because you're
probably involved in some of this.
Maybe your churches have established, started to
establish some inroads into accepting and welcoming people
of all kinds and types. I have a church in one of my
(00:24):
regions and I've, I visited it several months ago now and at
the start, the pastor is just anamazing lady.
I mean, just brilliant. Her name is Felicia.
(00:46):
And Felicia has seen the church grow and it's, it's a wonderful
place. And, and yet they, they started
the service with someone from the church standing in front of
the church and teaching the church.
And they do this every Sunday, teaching the church.
(01:08):
Another symbol, another sign. I haven't got a clue why I'm
actually standing here really because I I you know I'm not an
expert in any way the the expertis on my left your right, but
they they they were teaching another sign of Makaton.
Anybody heard of that five. It was, it was Makaton.
(01:35):
And because there's, there's a young, a young boy, lovely,
lovely boy in the church. And that's how the church
communicates with him. And every week they learn
something new to be able to communicate with a young boy.
They didn't, they didn't need todo it, but the reason why they
(01:57):
do it is because he is as important as anybody else within
the church. Oh, isn't that lovely?
Isn't that amazing? So great churches that we have
before we launch into this, thisis Ishpeel.
(02:17):
Just welcome Ishpeel. So check.
Yeah, my lights are here. Ishpeel you.
Probably have no Oh, the bright light.
Ishpeel. You probably have known.
You've probably been coming to anumber of seminars over the last
few years. Who's been to a a seminar with
Ishpell before over Els times over the years.
A few of you, your hands are going up and Ishpell has been
(02:40):
well, let me ask you a question.Who are you?
Yeah, so I I'm Ishpell. Hi, I've been coming here.
Is this my 4th? Els you just part of the
furniture now? Actually, about four years.
It has. Maybe about four years, but I
started to work with ELID aroundfour years ago.
(03:02):
Actually. Paul was the instigator of that.
I have a real passion around mental health and ministry and I
had a conversation with Paul about how we can support
ministers because it feels very underlooked around kinds of
mental health and how what the practical issues are.
(03:22):
And Paul was amazing and he saidlet's let's do some stuff.
So we have done lots of stuff. All my days, I can't tell you
how much Ishpell has impacted not just my regions but across
Elam now and has actually saved.I know Jesus saves, but Jesus
(03:43):
has used her to save a whole lotof pastors who have gone through
real lot of struggles. And so just want to say thank
you for that. Ishbel's got a business outside
of the church, but works for us in Elam.
So it's it's 1 and specializes in a number of different areas
(04:08):
and is today we are here to talkabout neurodiversity within the
community of the church. And as the body of Christ, we're
called to be welcoming and inclusive of every single
person. Amen.
And what whatever is going on and accessible to all people.
(04:32):
And we're so we're going to explore that today as a church
and how we can better serve and include neuro diverse
individuals into the church. So we're going to do a number of
questions. Ishpeel's going to speak and
bring a lot of information for us, which we're going to learn
(04:54):
from. And then we're going to save it
because save time at the end. Because what we found over the
Els years is that there's loads of questions.
And so you may have your, if you've got questions, just drop,
jot them down as you go through this seminar.
And then we'll make sure we havea good chunk of time at the end
(05:14):
where we can pass the microphonearound.
Is that OK? Are you happy?
Is anybody in the wrong seminar?You're OK.
Good. Are you happy with who you're
sitting next to? You're comfortable?
OK, make any changes now. So here we go, Ishbel.
(05:38):
When we're talking about neurodiversity, what exactly are
we really talking about? Yeah, OK.
So. First of all, to start off, I'm
going to come from a clinical perspective and the reason that
I really wanted Paul here is because what I can talk about
might not necessarily always translate into the church
(05:59):
environment. And Paul is going to be the
person that is able to translatethat also.
But I think the question and answers at the end is going to
be really important because I want Paul said something really
important at the beginning, which was you might already be
doing stuff and that is fantastic and we want to hear
about that. But the reason that I wanted to
(06:21):
talk about neurodiversity is it is one of my specialisms in my
clinics. It's something that I am very
passionate about and making it accessible to everybody.
If anybody knows about neurodiversity?
There's a lot. Of buzzwords around at the
moment around ADHD, people talk about being on the spectrum,
(06:41):
there's lots of different things, but the accessibility to
services and treatments has significantly reduced over the
years and that's caused a problem.
But when I was thinking about neurodiversity, I didn't want to
just talk about it because it's a buzzword.
I was really thinking, what doesGod want me to talk about here?
And neurodiversity came to mind.So I wrote down what I was going
(07:05):
to talk about. And as I was driving here this
morning, I thought, why do you want me to talk about this?
Because it does feel a bit buzzyand it feels a little bit
political to start talking aboutit and even maybe pushing what I
do for a living a little bit more.
But then I really felt like God said to me that it says in the
Bible that the gospel should be brought to all men and women.
(07:29):
And I thought when I go to church, I sit there and I hear
it because I can hear it becauseI have no issues hearing what is
said to me. But then I thought about the
people that are around me and how it's adapted for people that
might not be able to hear the gospel in the same way.
And I thought, we're missing something, aren't we, where
(07:50):
we're expecting people to come into a church environment and
just conform and adapt to exactly how we deliver
something. And that is a problem for me
because if we are going with thegospel is supposed to be for all
men and women. And that's my job as a disciple,
not as a clinician, but as a disciple.
How am I doing that and what am I doing?
(08:12):
And I went so far as to think ifI had a service that I said was
accessible to disabled people, which I have to do legally, but
I didn't have a ramp that enabled people to come in in a
wheelchair or I didn't have a lift.
How am I accessible if we are putting up, I'm not being
(08:32):
critical about this stuff up here.
It's it's fantastic. But if I was dyslexic, can I
read that OK? Am I able to read that and
interpret this in the same way? So that's what kind of pressed
me towards this just to start prompting not to be critical
about what people are doing, butto prompt people about how
(08:56):
accessible we actually are. Yeah, really, really good.
If if we look at church participation, you just you just
start to touch on that there. What would you think are some of
the barriers to that? So if we talk a little bit about
what is neurodiversity, because I kind of went off pierced with
(09:16):
that. So when we're looking at
neurodiversity clinically, we'retalking about ADHD, which is
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, We're talking about
autism, ASD, autism spectrum disorder.
We're also talking about, when we think about the world of
neurodiversity, we're talking about dyslexia, we're talking
(09:36):
about dyspraxia, and we're talking about dyscalcula.
We can talk a little bit about what those things are, but I'm
not going to go into it too muchbecause I'm sure a lot of you
will understand some of that. But what we know is that with
those things, with those areas of difficulties, people can have
(09:58):
sensory overload. So that means to say that.
And as I'm saying this, and as Iwas writing, I was thinking,
this is church. So sensory overload.
Loud noises can be impactful. Bright lights, crowded spaces
can be overwhelming for people with sensory sensitivities.
(10:20):
That describes church to me. Social interactions,
understanding and navigating social cues can be challenging
for individuals with autism or social anxiety.
Now, what we have to understand is that alongside autism,
anxiety sits with, It doesn't mean to say that if you're
(10:41):
autistic you're going to have anxiety or if you're anxious
you've got autism, but it is a symptom and it's a debilitating
symptom. So when you think about social
interactions and I've talked about understanding and
navigating social cues, you are smashed in the face with that
when you walk into church. I'm fine with it.
I don't mind hugging people, I don't mind eye contact, I don't
(11:03):
mind chatting. But if you're socially anxious
or you are autistic, that's a minefield.
So what am I going to do? Probably not going to go or I'll
go at the very last minute whereI can avoid people.
Thankfully, we're not in churches anymore like I grew up
in, where the pastor would say you're late at the pulpit.
(11:24):
If you're walking late, you're alittle bit more sensitive to
that. But think about welcome teams
and how people are interacting with people who might struggle.
And then we've got rigid structures.
So church services that follow arigid, rigid format can be
difficult for those that need flexibility.
If I've got ADHD and I don't want to sit down for long
(11:48):
periods of time, church is an absolute nightmare for me.
I want to get up, I want to fidget, I want to go to the
toilet, I want to move around. Church for however long that is,
is very, very difficult. But we're not just talking about
being able to sit down. We're talking about hearing the
message. So how can somebody that is
(12:10):
struggling with that rigid for rigid format going to be able to
hear that message and then communication styles.
So these can be difficult. Traditional communications may
not be accessible to those with conditions, as I said, like
dyslexia. Or ADHD.
So, Paul, let me ask you a question.
(12:31):
Oh oh. Lord Jesus.
What? What, when I'm saying that about
those kinds of challenges, what does that feel like for the
minister? I'm I'm.
I'm just right. But as you talk, it's right back
being a pastor and I was just seeing people, you know, get
like you mentioned about people going to the toilet.
(12:53):
And I would imagine I can just remember people doing that and
like me just being annoyed. And now I look back and thinking
if, if it was because they had some neuro diverse, I mean,
going back about 15 years, I'm thinking, oh, what, what a
terrible pastor. You know, me just be, you know.
(13:13):
And I think today because of people like you who have been
able to help us to diagnose and understand so much more than I,
I think as a pastor, there is a lot more understanding.
And then you start to really begin to think, OK, how can I
really care for my community and, and, and to really observe
(13:39):
and, and to see what is within the community.
And I, I think maybe I would still be thinking how, how do I
go about making sure that they're experiencing church?
I think I would still need people like you to help.
I think I would still need to gosomewhere to say, OK, I've got
(14:00):
such and such a person who's gotsuch and such a, a situation.
What are the triggers and, and how can I help?
And I think, I think as churchestoday, I think I, I think we've
got to think a lot more than we used to got, you know, going
(14:21):
back just even a decade, you, you just expected people to do
what you thought was the norm. And anybody who didn't do the
norm, well, you know, was like, we just have to speak to them,
(14:41):
you know, sit still with you forgoodness sake or whatever, you
know. And we were so ignorant, I
think, back then. So it almost feels a bit
embarrassing in when you look back.
Does that is that helpful? Yeah, because nobody's nodding
or anything. It's like, it's like I'm the
(15:01):
only one in the whole world's got it wrong.
So yeah, that's how I, I think. And I think that, you know,
there's a lot of talk about inclusivity today, which some of
it makes me nervous, but this doesn't in terms of
(15:24):
neurodiversity. This doesn't certainly, it
actually it encourages me that churches are having sensory
rooms and, and, and doing everybody can every church can
do something for every member that comes into the church so
that every person has an understanding and acceptance
(15:48):
and, and whatever, whatever is their life, sadly is titled or
categorized as that. It does not hold them back from
experiencing the love of Christ and and, and and the care of a
community. Does that make sense?
That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, it makes makes perfect
(16:09):
sense and I think that you're right, we have moved on.
I think that we've definitely had a better focus on it in
children's work. There seems to be an
understanding that children thatare coming to church are coming
with lots of different issues, so looking at that seems to be
much better. I think there's a long way to go
(16:32):
for adults in the congregation, but I think the keyword for me
that kept resounding in my head through this was about
adaptability. It's not changing anything, it's
just adapting it. How can you adapt something so
that it fits for everybody in some way?
You can't have and know that. It's one of the biggest things
(16:53):
when I speak to ministers, is trying to support everybody in
the same way equally. That's not possible.
You can't please everybody. But there's an adaptability.
There isn't that of and there's a looking at, a willingness to
look and think. How can we reach?
You. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So as a church, if we are, if our aim is to create a community
(17:20):
that reflects God's love, God's care, so you help us, Ishbel,
how can we do that? What are some of the practical
things that we can give to thesewonderful people who care so
much? What things have you seen?
What things do you know that we can implement into our churches?
(17:43):
Yeah. So I think the first thing is
understanding who's in your congregation.
I think removing we've, we've started to do that a bit more
around mental health, but kind of having a better understanding
of people's needs within the congregation because that
enables you to adapt to people'sneeds.
(18:03):
And I'm not just talking about neurodiversity, talking about a
range of issues that people comein with.
I was thinking the other day when I was looking at this and I
was talking about, you know, howpeople are welcomed into the
church. And I love being welcomed into
the church. I love a hug.
I love that conversation. But as I was thinking about
autism, I started to think aboutsocial anxiety.
I started to think about trauma,and then I started to think, so
(18:26):
you've got someone that's had a traumatic experience, that's
walking into a church that doesn't want to be touched and
doesn't want to have that. Are we acknowledging that?
Do we understand that? Because we know that we've got
congregations of lots of different people, but we still
expect everybody to fit into that box.
(18:47):
So I think it's understanding who's in the congregation as
best as you can. I put a clause on that because
you're not social workers. Ministers step into that world
of social work, doctor, nurse, OT, everything.
Try to just have a little bit ofan understanding and I think the
(19:08):
educational part of what is neurodiversity, educating
yourself within your sphere as to what that is so that you can
recognise it a little bit more. It's not about labelling and
thinking that person's clearly autistic because they behave in
whatever way. It's about understanding how
(19:28):
someone might interact with another person.
Can I just jump in there? And what you may not know is
Ishpeel is an elder in, in, in the church in, in Southport.
Our church in Southport, aren't you?
She was the first female elder in the history of that church.
(19:50):
Thank you, Sir. I'm surprised it was a man who
clapped first. Maybe you ladies.
What percentage did you get for,you know, for the vote?
99. We are still trying to find out,
but I'm on it. I think I know who it is and I'm
(20:12):
going to go and get them. So as an elder of the church,
right, one of the elders of the church, how do you in, in your
church? How, how do you identify people
coming in? I mean, you don't have a desk
and people got to check in all your ailments and all your
(20:33):
problems. How How is?
How does that generally naturally flow?
Well, my experience not just in my church but in other churches
is, you know, when people have certain issues or diagnosis
because there's been an issue. So normally it's the issue that
(20:57):
precedes the actual understanding of what's going on
for somebody. So.
I love my church, does everything perfectly.
It's the one that does. Is it recording but I?
Don't think we're quite at a place where we understand what
people are coming in with. And I also think that we can't
(21:18):
necessarily because people are are allowed to keep a bit back.
Not everyone has to come in and say I've got ADHD or I'm
autistic. That's where that adaptability
is, that you might have somebodythat might not be ADHD or might
not even know that they're ADHD,but surprisingly sitting over
there where they've got the sensory facilities or they're
(21:40):
able to utilise something works for them and that might be an
awakening for them, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you do anything about dyslexia with you mentioned
about this screen and the words and stuff.
Is there anything not yet? She's on, she's on a campaign.
Watch out Southport. But what could we do?
What, what? What could we do?
(22:01):
Do you know what we could do? Yeah.
So there is facilities to be able to enhance documents so
that it is dyslexia friendly. We do it in schools all the
time, don't we? There's certain screens that
people can use and there's also resources that can be friendly
for people that may be dyslexic.Also within ADHD, understanding
(22:24):
large chunks of information is really difficult.
People switch off, you know, theattention element of ADHD means
to say that if you've got your Bible paragraph up at the front,
you're not likely to listen to it.
So having smaller chunks maybe in resources or facilities like
(22:45):
that could be helpful. Good.
OK, so let's carry on and ask how we can, you know more
practical strategies that we canuse.
You mentioned about sensory friendly services.
What else? Yeah.
So I've written some bits down here, so I'm going to have a
look at my notes. But please, if there's anything
on here that you guys are that isn't on here that you're doing,
(23:08):
save it and tell us about it because we want to know.
OK. So we've talked about the
sensory friendly services, a quiet area.
Paul, you mentioned that alreadythat there are some churches
potentially having a quiet area.I think that the quiet areas
that I've seen in churches just happen to be an area where
people congregate. It's not necessarily a specific
(23:31):
area that might work. People might not want a big neon
light saying over here is the area that you can go and sit if
you've got a sensory issue. But also for some people, they
actually might need a neon light.
They might need someone to say we are a neuro diverse friendly
church and. Here's a facility for you and
(23:52):
how that's done in a discreet way could be helpful.
So a quiet place also in certainchurches, the quiet place is
also sometimes used for people who want to go and have
conversations. So having a place that is
specific for that as a sensory area may also be helpful.
(24:13):
That it's not a place to go and have a chat with your friend
that you've not seen all week and a coffee during the service
because the past is a bit boring.
It's a place that someone can goand be able to utilize the
resource over there. Lighting.
We talked a little bit about lighting and sound and the
impact. Of that for people and you're a
(24:33):
diverse so an area maybe if you're not going to do it in
your whole church depending on how big your church is with
dimmer lights or use softer lighting.
One of the things that people with ADHD have treated 3 1/2
thousand people now most of themsay to me, I don't go shopping,
(24:53):
I cannot stand the lights in a supermarket.
So if you are going to neglect doing your weekly shop because
it's too bright, I think you're going to probably think about
the church that you go to. If the lighting feels like you
can't concentrate and we're talking about sensory issues,
that isn't just a sensitivity and irritation.
(25:15):
I'll get over it, love. It's something that is so
distracting. It's it's agitating.
It's a physical thing that people feel.
So it's. Significant, so dimming
lighting, softer lighting and maybe reducing the volume.
Or one of the things that I've thought about is air defenders.
(25:37):
They don't have to be massive air defenders anymore.
I've seen some really nice little discreet ones.
People don't have to walk in with big headphones on.
So having something that just softens that for people could be
helpful. And also the areas that people
sit, don't sit near the drummer.It's if you've got sensory
(26:03):
issues, having the area at the front where you are right by the
speakers and that is the last place that people can sit.
Remember, we've talked about people that may not want to be
welcomed, so may come in late. And therefore the only seating
that might be available is rightthere by the speaker, by the
drummer. So we've got to be mindful of
(26:25):
those sorts of things as well. That's good.
Visual supports like we talked about provide visual schedules
or written bulletins for services so that people could
prepare beforehand. And we talked about some of the
dyslexia resources that might beavailable to translate some of
(26:46):
the other areas around providingsocial support.
Now I'm really keen on the social support element of
neurodiversity. If you've got a church where
people are able to connect well with one another, the pastor
shouldn't be everything to everybody.
So a buddying system and understanding who else is neuro
diverse in the church. Maybe if that's the area that
(27:06):
people are sitting in, it's not about segregation.
It's about just buddying up and supporting one another, clearly
outlining the expectations. So not just the expectations of
what the service is. I don't know about your church.
In my church they explain every Sunday what's going to happen.
So people are clear as to how long things are going to be on
(27:29):
for, how things are going to run.
But also, if you have as a minister someone that you think
maybe neuro diverse in your church, having a conversation
about what the expectations are of them, you're allowed to have
that conversation. You are allowed to say, if you
want to be communicated with, how do you want that to happen?
(27:52):
If you are perceived as maybe being a little bit rude or
agitated, what would you like usto do?
Do you want us to leave you or do you want us to have a
conversation with you? Do you want me to come to you
face to face or do you want me to ring you?
When we talk to our neuro diverse patients, one of the
things that we always ask is howdo you want to be communicated
(28:13):
with? If you ask my husband I can say
this, who's been recently diagnosed with ADHD, how do you
want to be? Communicated with Do you want a
phone call or a text? He'd say never ring me, never
ring me. I don't like speaking to people
on the phone, it's something that I find stressful.
Text him, you might hear back from him in a year's time.
(28:36):
But anxiety provoking communication can put people
off, so understanding what theircommunication is is very
important. Training for volunteers.
I'm so happy with how many people have come here,
(28:56):
especially people that didn't even have never really seen me
before. There's no fans here.
You're here because it's something that you're interested
in. That says to me that within your
churches you might have some champions, some neuro diverse
champions that you might want tolook at running with this and
supporting an initiative like this.
(29:19):
Good. Just press pause there for a
moment. You, you just said that you've
worked with 3 1/2 thousand. That's a lot.
That's a lot. You know how many?
Like in what period of time? So I've been working, working in
(29:40):
neurodiversity 4, four years now.
Three or four years, yeah. And and I don't know how many
years ago it started to surface,but it's not been long, has it?
Well, it has. That's misconception.
(30:01):
Oh yeah. So.
Am I misconceived? Yes, you really are that.
Won't be the first time. Yeah, it's, it's, it's been
around for a very long time. The the misconception is that
it's a new thing. It's been successfully being
treated since probably the late mid 60s.
(30:22):
Never. Yeah, very successfully treated.
Did you know that? But what has?
Happened is social media. So about four years ago, TikTok
exploded with social media postsabout ADHD.
Not only were they very clear inunderstanding what symptoms were
(30:48):
of ADHD, so people saw it and they thought wow, but couple
that with TikTok being perfect for somebody with ADHD because
of the way the dopamine hits work so it exploded.
People saw it and they thought this is what I'm experiencing.
I understand so and when you when you've diagnosed for people
(31:10):
have you is that good for them to know how what what
experiences have you had have seen that when it's dawned on
them. Yeah, I mean, it's life
changing. It's absolutely life changing
for people that have a diagnosisbecause we're not talking about
treatment. Treatment is highly successful
for ADHD, you know, and, and, and we talk about that a lot.
(31:32):
It changes people's lives. Medication and therapy alongside
it. But people have walked with this
all their lives thinking it's something to do with me.
I can't concentrate, I don't think clearly, I can't make eye
contact, I can't function like anormal human being.
And the more that I work with neurodiversity, the more I
(31:54):
realized that actually there isn't anything such that no such
thing as normal. There's just people that see the
world in very different ways andwe've got to adapt to that.
Brilliant, brilliant. OK, let's come back to just
continue. Tell us more stuff.
Yeah. So OK.
(32:16):
Thank you. So other areas are around
enhancing communication styles. We've talked a little bit about
the resources that you can use, but using alternative
communication methods. Depending on how many people you
have in your church population that might be neuro diverse, you
might want to think about specific services or groups that
(32:38):
are specifically for people thatare neuro diverse and how they
can that can be adapted for them.
Simplifying language, ensuring that the language that is used
in the services is really clear.I was listening to somebody the
other month who at the beginningof his sermons he describes
(33:00):
exactly who he's talking about. He talks as though people that
are coming to the church have never even looked at a Bible so
that they understand exact, thatthere's no assumption of
knowledge. And that's really important.
Even if you are going through a sermon series and talking about
the same person, Matthew, for example, each week he would
(33:21):
explain exactly who that is. And that inclusivity enables
people to keep coming back to church because they feel that
they're a part of something. Which is what we're supposed to
be doing, isn't it? It's good, OK.
OK. And then the flexibility around
the worship options, it's reallydifficult to do this.
(33:42):
It's very difficult to adapt this.
I appreciate that. But thinking about the air
defenders that we talked about and maybe having conversations
with individuals who might identify as neuro diverse as to
if you're running multiple services, if you're a church
that's that large, whether you want to adapt a service and the
(34:03):
worship options. So that's inclusive for people
that are are struggling to engage with that.
Talked a little bit about building that neuro diverse
community and supporting people to interact with one another and
having the conversations with other with the congregation
about neuro diversity. So it feels inclusive and people
(34:24):
can be a part of that and fostering that culture of
understanding in the same way that we've been championing
around mental health and celebrating it, celebrating
neuro diversity. To me, neuro diversity is a
gift. It's a way that people look at
things. I love the way that neuro
diverse people look at things. I love it.
(34:46):
I love the way that they see things so clearly.
And I think, I wish I could say it like that without all the
other emotions and things that are involved in it.
And I think celebrating that instead of trying to change it
is something that we need to be doing.
Can. You just expand on that a little
bit because that's really interesting.
That's I find that fascinating that because it, I get it that
(35:08):
it's a gift and it's a, you know, we've, we've said that
we've celebrated that. But what kind of things do do
they, what are the strengths? What, what kind of strengths are
you seeing? You see they, they see things
clearly. What do you mean by that?
Yeah, so I mean, I I wouldn't want to lay.
So remember every the reason it's called autism spectrum
(35:30):
disorder is because it is a spectrum.
That doesn't mean to say we all sit on it.
It means to say that people havedifferent symptoms within that
spectrum. But if I was thinking about
somebody with autism, some of myamazing patients are so direct.
They just say exactly how it is.They don't have any of the dress
or any of the fluff. They say it.
And when it offends somebody, they don't understand that
(35:53):
because they said, but I've justtold you the truth now.
But I want somebody who says that on the welcome team.
Maybe not, but there's definitely, I want someone like
that 'cause I want the truth andI don't want the emotion of it.
And I think there's places wherethat can be celebrated.
(36:14):
I think the way that somebody with ADHD, but for certain
people, the way their mind works, the way that they are so
quick to think, the way that they are so innovative and
passionate. They might not see everything
through because they lose focus,but those ideas are amazing.
Those ideas have built some of the most incredible businesses
(36:36):
in this world. It's getting the right support
around it so that it can be seenthrough.
Brilliant. Really helpful.
OK, let's let's let's let's carry on.
OK. And finally, collaboration with
other neurodiverse organisations, you're not alone.
There's neurodiverse services inareas, there's support services,
(36:59):
and I think it's about bringing that on board and looking at
what locally people are doing. I think it's an amazing
initiative as well. When I was talking to someone
about me speaking about this today, they said they were
asking why I wanted to talk about it.
And I said because I feel like we have loads of people that
when something doesn't fit in the church, they're able to go
(37:21):
to the next church down the road.
And I don't want anyone to come to my church and think, oh, I
can't get my needs. Next time you're a diverse, I'm
going to go to the next church down the road.
It's not good enough. We have to meet that need and I
don't think churches are doing that.
And I think that there is a cohort of people in communities
(37:44):
that are lonely and isolated andfeel like they don't fit in and
don't feel like their voices areheard, and a church could be the
most nurturing place for them. See, This is why you you, you
are such a gift to Elam because you are a provoker like a
prophetic provoker for us because this is I, I feel my
(38:08):
heart when you do these sessionsnormally outside of the church
that you do day sessions. Don't you know all of this with
companies and here we are within40 minutes got to get through
everything. So it's a, a big, you know,
information load to receive, butI, I feel provoked by it in a
(38:30):
very, very positive way. And I'm sure you do as well too.
I like the fact that we can makesmall changes, just just
something small and it can change somebody's experience of
church, can't it? And you've identified those
small things and really appreciate that too, so that we
(38:52):
can be the church that people ofall different types of
neurodiversity can feel. I can, I can stay here.
I can have an experience of God here.
And thank you for welcoming justlike anybody.
That's a beautiful church, isn'tit?
(39:14):
Thank you. Pause.
And now I'll take this microphone to you.
And we're going to just have a time now to have Q&A.
So the first hand is right at the back.
Thank you, Sir. It's always good to start off
(39:36):
with someone, just say your nameand then ask your question.
Hi, my name's Simon. Earlier on you mentioned just in
passing that rigid service structure might be an issue.
Now, I that immediately pricked up my ears because I thought I
was under the misconception perhaps that actually having a
(39:56):
predictable service structure was actually helpful for people.
So which is it? Is it both?
What? It depends on which neurodiverse
issue that you have. So I think it's about
understanding what the structureis.
So you're right to say that somebody with autism is going to
(40:18):
feel more comfortable with a understanding of what that
structure is. And there may be rigidity in
that. But then someone with ADHD may
struggle with that, and they maystruggle with the sitting down
for 40 minutes, and they may struggle with that time
constraints of things. And that's why it's about the
adaptability or the understanding of different
(40:41):
people's needs. How do you cope with both?
Yeah, yeah. And it.
And it feels like that, doesn't it, that you've got one end over
here and another end over here. I think it's about the
communication. So I think it's about the
understanding, like I say, of how the structure of the service
is going to be. But I think it's also about
(41:04):
being able to adapt to each person's need.
So you might have somebody that is welcoming of the rigidity,
like we've just said, who feels comfortable with it and actually
if it changes, could feel quite uncomfortable.
But then you've got someone thatstruggles with that.
It's about having the conversation with both people.
You're going to have the conversation with the person
(41:25):
potentially that has ADHD that struggles with that and say,
where's best for you to sit? How can we handle this?
How can we support you? But maybe you might have a less
rigid service in the evening anda more rigid service in the
morning if you have the flexibility of that.
(41:45):
Hi, my name is Dave. I was recently, well recently
within the last couple of years,diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.
I, I found it incredibly helpfulto be diagnosed.
As you said, I finally understood I could put a name on
(42:07):
a lot of the things that I had struggled with.
And I, one of the things that I've been on as a, as a journey
of, of, of trying to understand what it means to be neuro
diverse and a disciple of Jesus and a follower of Jesus is
battling through the shame I have felt for such a long time
(42:34):
of how I wasn't able to spend regular time praying or reading
scripture and how those essential spiritual disciplines
felt for me as a, as a, as a, asa person who had no idea that
(42:54):
this was a thing. And I get the impression now
that there were just so many people who have never, ever been
able to vocalize that. And I wonder if some of the
language that is used specifically from the front of a
church about how we explore, howwe, how we pray and, and connect
(43:21):
with God through the Scripture, through socially, through each
other, and what that feels like.If some of that language needs
to change in order for someone who is undiagnosed to be able to
feel like they're not like that.They're heard in some way and
(43:44):
not feel and not kind of go throughout life and, and have
years and years of, of just built up shame and, and just
about stuff like that. So.
Yeah, No, I, I couldn't. Yeah, I I completely agree.
Thank you for sharing that. I think the legalistic approach
(44:09):
of Christianity is not helpful for someone that is neuro
diverse. And we are now moving through
generations that there are children in our kids church who
are potentially neuro diverse and we have to help them to
understand that their relationship with Jesus is an
individual relationship. It is not a regimented
(44:31):
ritualistic behaviour that they have to perform.
And I've grown up in a church being told that I have to pray
sitting down with my hands together.
I found out recently that I praybetter when I'm walking, talking
to Jesus. Somebody with ADHD,
(44:53):
concentrating, sitting down, praying, floating off into
something else or to a differentthought.
Having a regimented view that you have to read a certain
amount of chapters every day of the Bible, that's very difficult
when a lot of people with ADHD would say to me, I can't read, I
struggle to read and reading a sentence over and over again is
(45:15):
a problem for me. So reformulating what we have
been force fed and told our relationship and our worth as a
Christian is, is part of that process and I'm glad that you're
able to go through that now. Very well, thank you.
(45:39):
Thank you, Pastor Paul and good afternoon, everyone.
I think the presentation is veryenlightening, these concepts and
ideas. I have some knowledge of it but
for the college from where I come from which is South
America, Guyana and you might beable to spot a few if you like
(46:02):
symptoms so to speak. People who may have ADHD or
might be dyslexic but they mightnot be aware of it.
My question to you, would it be something that a pastor should
do is to maybe encourage them toget tested or check out to see
(46:27):
if there is something that they might need to pay attention to.
Because I believe, and I believewe agree in this room that those
challenges is not just within the local church, but it's
affect their entire lives. And so they have issues in their
relationships as well. And sometimes their partners
(46:50):
either see them as stupid or they're tired talking them this
way. And so this is frustration.
And of course, the frustration bubbles over into services.
And unfortunately or unfortunately, some of those
individuals might even be in leadership because they have not
been diagnosed. They have just been challenged
(47:12):
through their lives. And they just keep, you know,
because they're not stupid. They might be very academic, but
it just they really had to fightto get to where they are.
How do we approach those individuals to maybe let them
know they might be a challenge because we are not doctors so we
can't tell them you are this well.
We suspect that there are some. There are some things here that
(47:35):
might need some checking out. So I think there's a huge amount
of sensitivity that's needed within this, isn't there?
And if I say that some of my closest friends have got ADHD,
but I wouldn't tell them they have, hopefully they're not here
and listening. It's really, it's, it's a
(47:56):
process. It's a process of realization
for a lot of people. So when it's told to them, it
can be quite destabilizing. The most emotional sessions that
I've had with patients is in those final 10 minutes of the
diagnosis. They've gone through the whole
process with me that everything's pointed to ADHD
(48:20):
from them being a child. They're now 55 year old man.
And then in those final moments,I say, OK, I'm probably going to
give you a diagnosis of ADHD. 9 times out of 10, people start to
cry. They can't believe it.
They knew it, but they couldn't believe it.
So having those conversations are going to be difficult, but
(48:44):
that gentle ease towards it around what the symptoms they're
experiencing may be helpful. If you're struggling to listen,
have you always struggled to listen when you're saying, when
you when your wife's saying to you that you don't really listen
anymore, Is that something new or is that something that you've
always had? Starting to tease out and
(49:04):
understand who they are will be helpful.
But I think it's also within a church environment, like we've
said, having a space where people don't have to conform,
whether you've got ADHD or not, if you notice somebody and I'm
not talking to you, that's walking out now.
But if you notice somebody in your church that gets up and
(49:25):
moves around a lot, having a conversation with them and
saying there's a space over there so that you can feel
comfortable to to move around. There's no problem with that.
I'm not being critical. I've just noticed that you do it
and it's absolutely fine. So just noticing the symptoms
and having that space. But if you have the
relationship, have a gentle conversation.
(49:46):
It's good. It's good.
Got a gentleman here. Thank you.
Yes, my name is Roy. I just thank God that you were
around and people like you because I have a 55 year old son
who's had ADHD all his life. He was diagnosed at 7 by an
American professor, Ben Feigold,as having ADHD.
(50:09):
When this country just ignored it.
They didn't know anything about it.
He's the little boy that didn't get his own way in the
supermarket. You knew about it.
He is much better now and he's married.
But even this afternoon after metelling him at weekend there
will be a way all week and I wouldn't be contactable.
(50:32):
I had a new phone which I couldn't switch off and I was
next door and he rang and because I didn't answer or
switched it off, he rang again. So I had to go out and he
couldn't understand. And that's even now he has
problem. And so I thank goodness that
it's accepted in this country. Paul said he didn't know about
(50:53):
it. It was a late thing.
But it's only in the last few years that this country have
started accepting ADHD. So I just thank you and thank
God for the people like. You.
That's a lovely testimony. Bless you some.
We've got so many hands raised up now.
We knew this was going to happen, so give me your hands.
(51:17):
You're the nearest to me. Thank you so much, Good
afternoon. My name is Nicola.
I was just wondering if you could help with some practical
ideas that if for example, myself, I work with that as well
and some people in the church are aware of issues like this
(51:40):
but others are not, what's a good way of making the entire
church community, congregation accepting, understanding where
sometimes it may be a a culturaldifficulty?
Great. Well, what you do is that you
invite Ishbel to come and speak.That's what you sorry.
Over to you. I'm not the answers, sorry.
(52:02):
Yeah, I think it's, I think it'sabout having the conversations
within the churches, isn't it? And I think it's about having
maybe a platform to be able to speak about what you're doing
that you're adapting it. So let's use the analogy around
wheelchair accessibility. If you were to say to the
church, we're putting a ramp in and we're making sure that lift
(52:23):
is fully functioning because we want people that are in
wheelchairs are able to come in.You don't need to explain that
you supporting them. You don't need to explain that
you believe that they can't walk.
You don't need to explain that you are on board with diagnosis
of being unable to walk, whatever that is.
I think we don't necessarily need to go into it too much.
(52:45):
I think I would hope that we're moving through to a point where
we accept it. It exists, it is a thing, and
it's been around a long time. Thanks.
So hi, I'm Renee. Sort of.
We have a lot of send children and autistic children in our
(53:06):
church. We do all we can.
Sometimes the parents are on board, sometimes one of the mums
is slightly send herself. So that doesn't help in, you
know, dealing with the situation.
She's very loud and telling her children off at the back where
they generally congregate, whichis fine.
It can be chaos on some Sunday mornings.
(53:30):
We don't have room. We are a fairly small church for
building a sensory room. We have a creche listening to
you. Now I'm thinking, do we adapt it
into a sin room instead? But then where the nursing
mothers go, it is very difficultto have free worship and let the
Holy Spirit move and to have that freedom in our worship
(53:51):
time. At the beginning we may have
half hour, sometimes it may be longer.
How do you help? I mean, we, we embrace the
defenders, we have all of this, but we still get many complaints
because sometimes it's too long,sometimes it's too loud.
We don't have a quiet space. There isn't facility to have a
quiet space. It is, you know, we do all we
(54:12):
can, but when we want to allow the spirit to move and things do
get loud and things do get different.
How do you encompass all of thatin in a church, you know,
environment? Good question.
Well, I'll speak a bit, but I'd like you to maybe answer from a
minister's perspective. But I think you, you can't fit
(54:34):
everything, can you? You can only adapt to a certain
extent. So you can only support with
what you have. You've not got a sensory room.
You could and you know, I don't know what your church buildings
like. You could have an area at the
back where there are fidget toysand activities that you haven't.
You've got all of that, OK. I think the communication, the
(55:02):
communication around you trying to adapt things, the air
defenders, maybe the support, I think so communication is really
important for the individuals, but also for the church for them
to understand that you are an inclusive church where people,
you're encouraging people to come and that's not going to
(55:24):
conform to exactly how you want it.
But the flip side is also for the neuro diverse people that
you are still a church and you're there to do a job and you
want to be able to do that freely.
So it's how that meets in the middle.
And I think communication is really important.
I think also just on your point about the moment, the back that
(55:44):
might haven't, you know, parenting queries, it's also
what she feels the expectation is of her.
I'm not saying that you or any of the leadership team are
making her feel like a children should be quiet.
But sometimes I know as a motherof four, the pressure of how I
think people perceive my children makes me respond in a
(56:07):
certain way. So if I've got a child that is
naughty, I'm not really worried about my child being naughty
because she's naughty at home. But if she's in Tesco's, I'm
thinking that lady's looking at me.
So my response might be slightlydifferent.
And I think in church, hopefullywe can open up to say parents in
(56:28):
a healthy way. But we're not judging you
because we know parenting is really difficult.
Yeah. I'm ignoring hands because time
has gone and I can't. And that answer was clinical
professional plus elder. So I'm really sorry I can't take
(56:54):
any more questions, but I'm really pleased that we've got to
the end of the time and we've still got questions because
actually that's a good seminar. And we just hope that it is just
being a catalyst to, to, for youto go away and do some more
thinking. Ishpell, you can see for those
(57:18):
who've just met her for the first time, you can see how
Ishpell has been and is a massive gift and a blessing to
the Eland denomination. And I want us to put our hands
together and say thank you to her.
So thank you. And you're here because you're
interested in it. You're here because you're
probably involved in some of this.
Maybe your churches have established, started to
establish some inroads into accepting and welcoming people
of all kinds and types. I have a church in one of my
(00:24):
regions and I've, I visited it several months ago now and at
the start, the pastor is just anamazing lady.
I mean, just brilliant. Her name is Felicia.
(00:46):
And Felicia has seen the church grow and it's, it's a wonderful
place. And, and yet they, they started
the service with someone from the church standing in front of
the church and teaching the church.
And they do this every Sunday, teaching the church.
(01:08):
Another symbol, another sign. I haven't got a clue why I'm
actually standing here really because I I you know I'm not an
expert in any way the the expertis on my left your right, but
they they they were teaching another sign of Makaton.
Anybody heard of that five. It was, it was Makaton.
(01:35):
And because there's, there's a young, a young boy, lovely,
lovely boy in the church. And that's how the church
communicates with him. And every week they learn
something new to be able to communicate with a young boy.
They didn't, they didn't need todo it, but the reason why they
(01:57):
do it is because he is as important as anybody else within
the church. Oh, isn't that lovely?
Isn't that amazing? So great churches that we have
before we launch into this, thisis Ishpeel.
(02:17):
Just welcome Ishpeel. So check.
Yeah, my lights are here. Ishpeel you.
Probably have no Oh, the bright light.
Ishpeel. You probably have known.
You've probably been coming to anumber of seminars over the last
few years. Who's been to a a seminar with
Ishpell before over Els times over the years.
A few of you, your hands are going up and Ishpell has been
(02:40):
well, let me ask you a question.Who are you?
Yeah, so I I'm Ishpell. Hi, I've been coming here.
Is this my 4th? Els you just part of the
furniture now? Actually, about four years.
It has. Maybe about four years, but I
started to work with ELID aroundfour years ago.
(03:02):
Actually. Paul was the instigator of that.
I have a real passion around mental health and ministry and I
had a conversation with Paul about how we can support
ministers because it feels very underlooked around kinds of
mental health and how what the practical issues are.
(03:22):
And Paul was amazing and he saidlet's let's do some stuff.
So we have done lots of stuff. All my days, I can't tell you
how much Ishpell has impacted not just my regions but across
Elam now and has actually saved.I know Jesus saves, but Jesus
(03:43):
has used her to save a whole lotof pastors who have gone through
real lot of struggles. And so just want to say thank
you for that. Ishbel's got a business outside
of the church, but works for us in Elam.
So it's it's 1 and specializes in a number of different areas
(04:08):
and is today we are here to talkabout neurodiversity within the
community of the church. And as the body of Christ, we're
called to be welcoming and inclusive of every single
person. Amen.
And what whatever is going on and accessible to all people.
(04:32):
And we're so we're going to explore that today as a church
and how we can better serve and include neuro diverse
individuals into the church. So we're going to do a number of
questions. Ishpeel's going to speak and
bring a lot of information for us, which we're going to learn
(04:54):
from. And then we're going to save it
because save time at the end. Because what we found over the
Els years is that there's loads of questions.
And so you may have your, if you've got questions, just drop,
jot them down as you go through this seminar.
And then we'll make sure we havea good chunk of time at the end
(05:14):
where we can pass the microphonearound.
Is that OK? Are you happy?
Is anybody in the wrong seminar?You're OK.
Good. Are you happy with who you're
sitting next to? You're comfortable?
OK, make any changes now. So here we go, Ishbel.
(05:38):
When we're talking about neurodiversity, what exactly are
we really talking about? Yeah, OK.
So. First of all, to start off, I'm
going to come from a clinical perspective and the reason that
I really wanted Paul here is because what I can talk about
might not necessarily always translate into the church
(05:59):
environment. And Paul is going to be the
person that is able to translatethat also.
But I think the question and answers at the end is going to
be really important because I want Paul said something really
important at the beginning, which was you might already be
doing stuff and that is fantastic and we want to hear
about that. But the reason that I wanted to
(06:21):
talk about neurodiversity is it is one of my specialisms in my
clinics. It's something that I am very
passionate about and making it accessible to everybody.
If anybody knows about neurodiversity?
There's a lot. Of buzzwords around at the
moment around ADHD, people talk about being on the spectrum,
(06:41):
there's lots of different things, but the accessibility to
services and treatments has significantly reduced over the
years and that's caused a problem.
But when I was thinking about neurodiversity, I didn't want to
just talk about it because it's a buzzword.
I was really thinking, what doesGod want me to talk about here?
And neurodiversity came to mind.So I wrote down what I was going
(07:05):
to talk about. And as I was driving here this
morning, I thought, why do you want me to talk about this?
Because it does feel a bit buzzyand it feels a little bit
political to start talking aboutit and even maybe pushing what I
do for a living a little bit more.
But then I really felt like God said to me that it says in the
Bible that the gospel should be brought to all men and women.
(07:29):
And I thought when I go to church, I sit there and I hear
it because I can hear it becauseI have no issues hearing what is
said to me. But then I thought about the
people that are around me and how it's adapted for people that
might not be able to hear the gospel in the same way.
And I thought, we're missing something, aren't we, where
(07:50):
we're expecting people to come into a church environment and
just conform and adapt to exactly how we deliver
something. And that is a problem for me
because if we are going with thegospel is supposed to be for all
men and women. And that's my job as a disciple,
not as a clinician, but as a disciple.
How am I doing that and what am I doing?
(08:12):
And I went so far as to think ifI had a service that I said was
accessible to disabled people, which I have to do legally, but
I didn't have a ramp that enabled people to come in in a
wheelchair or I didn't have a lift.
How am I accessible if we are putting up, I'm not being
(08:32):
critical about this stuff up here.
It's it's fantastic. But if I was dyslexic, can I
read that OK? Am I able to read that and
interpret this in the same way? So that's what kind of pressed
me towards this just to start prompting not to be critical
about what people are doing, butto prompt people about how
(08:56):
accessible we actually are. Yeah, really, really good.
If if we look at church participation, you just you just
start to touch on that there. What would you think are some of
the barriers to that? So if we talk a little bit about
what is neurodiversity, because I kind of went off pierced with
(09:16):
that. So when we're looking at
neurodiversity clinically, we'retalking about ADHD, which is
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, We're talking about
autism, ASD, autism spectrum disorder.
We're also talking about, when we think about the world of
neurodiversity, we're talking about dyslexia, we're talking
(09:36):
about dyspraxia, and we're talking about dyscalcula.
We can talk a little bit about what those things are, but I'm
not going to go into it too muchbecause I'm sure a lot of you
will understand some of that. But what we know is that with
those things, with those areas of difficulties, people can have
(09:58):
sensory overload. So that means to say that.
And as I'm saying this, and as Iwas writing, I was thinking,
this is church. So sensory overload.
Loud noises can be impactful. Bright lights, crowded spaces
can be overwhelming for people with sensory sensitivities.
(10:20):
That describes church to me. Social interactions,
understanding and navigating social cues can be challenging
for individuals with autism or social anxiety.
Now, what we have to understand is that alongside autism,
anxiety sits with, It doesn't mean to say that if you're
(10:41):
autistic you're going to have anxiety or if you're anxious
you've got autism, but it is a symptom and it's a debilitating
symptom. So when you think about social
interactions and I've talked about understanding and
navigating social cues, you are smashed in the face with that
when you walk into church. I'm fine with it.
I don't mind hugging people, I don't mind eye contact, I don't
(11:03):
mind chatting. But if you're socially anxious
or you are autistic, that's a minefield.
So what am I going to do? Probably not going to go or I'll
go at the very last minute whereI can avoid people.
Thankfully, we're not in churches anymore like I grew up
in, where the pastor would say you're late at the pulpit.
(11:24):
If you're walking late, you're alittle bit more sensitive to
that. But think about welcome teams
and how people are interacting with people who might struggle.
And then we've got rigid structures.
So church services that follow arigid, rigid format can be
difficult for those that need flexibility.
If I've got ADHD and I don't want to sit down for long
(11:48):
periods of time, church is an absolute nightmare for me.
I want to get up, I want to fidget, I want to go to the
toilet, I want to move around. Church for however long that is,
is very, very difficult. But we're not just talking about
being able to sit down. We're talking about hearing the
message. So how can somebody that is
(12:10):
struggling with that rigid for rigid format going to be able to
hear that message and then communication styles.
So these can be difficult. Traditional communications may
not be accessible to those with conditions, as I said, like
dyslexia. Or ADHD.
So, Paul, let me ask you a question.
(12:31):
Oh oh. Lord Jesus.
What? What, when I'm saying that about
those kinds of challenges, what does that feel like for the
minister? I'm I'm.
I'm just right. But as you talk, it's right back
being a pastor and I was just seeing people, you know, get
like you mentioned about people going to the toilet.
(12:53):
And I would imagine I can just remember people doing that and
like me just being annoyed. And now I look back and thinking
if, if it was because they had some neuro diverse, I mean,
going back about 15 years, I'm thinking, oh, what, what a
terrible pastor. You know, me just be, you know.
(13:13):
And I think today because of people like you who have been
able to help us to diagnose and understand so much more than I,
I think as a pastor, there is a lot more understanding.
And then you start to really begin to think, OK, how can I
really care for my community and, and, and to really observe
(13:39):
and, and to see what is within the community.
And I, I think maybe I would still be thinking how, how do I
go about making sure that they're experiencing church?
I think I would still need people like you to help.
I think I would still need to gosomewhere to say, OK, I've got
(14:00):
such and such a person who's gotsuch and such a, a situation.
What are the triggers and, and how can I help?
And I think, I think as churchestoday, I think I, I think we've
got to think a lot more than we used to got, you know, going
(14:21):
back just even a decade, you, you just expected people to do
what you thought was the norm. And anybody who didn't do the
norm, well, you know, was like, we just have to speak to them,
(14:41):
you know, sit still with you forgoodness sake or whatever, you
know. And we were so ignorant, I
think, back then. So it almost feels a bit
embarrassing in when you look back.
Does that is that helpful? Yeah, because nobody's nodding
or anything. It's like, it's like I'm the
(15:01):
only one in the whole world's got it wrong.
So yeah, that's how I, I think. And I think that, you know,
there's a lot of talk about inclusivity today, which some of
it makes me nervous, but this doesn't in terms of
(15:24):
neurodiversity. This doesn't certainly, it
actually it encourages me that churches are having sensory
rooms and, and, and doing everybody can every church can
do something for every member that comes into the church so
that every person has an understanding and acceptance
(15:48):
and, and whatever, whatever is their life, sadly is titled or
categorized as that. It does not hold them back from
experiencing the love of Christ and and, and and the care of a
community. Does that make sense?
That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, it makes makes perfect
(16:09):
sense and I think that you're right, we have moved on.
I think that we've definitely had a better focus on it in
children's work. There seems to be an
understanding that children thatare coming to church are coming
with lots of different issues, so looking at that seems to be
much better. I think there's a long way to go
(16:32):
for adults in the congregation, but I think the keyword for me
that kept resounding in my head through this was about
adaptability. It's not changing anything, it's
just adapting it. How can you adapt something so
that it fits for everybody in some way?
You can't have and know that. It's one of the biggest things
(16:53):
when I speak to ministers, is trying to support everybody in
the same way equally. That's not possible.
You can't please everybody. But there's an adaptability.
There isn't that of and there's a looking at, a willingness to
look and think. How can we reach?
You. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So as a church, if we are, if our aim is to create a community
(17:20):
that reflects God's love, God's care, so you help us, Ishbel,
how can we do that? What are some of the practical
things that we can give to thesewonderful people who care so
much? What things have you seen?
What things do you know that we can implement into our churches?
(17:43):
Yeah. So I think the first thing is
understanding who's in your congregation.
I think removing we've, we've started to do that a bit more
around mental health, but kind of having a better understanding
of people's needs within the congregation because that
enables you to adapt to people'sneeds.
(18:03):
And I'm not just talking about neurodiversity, talking about a
range of issues that people comein with.
I was thinking the other day when I was looking at this and I
was talking about, you know, howpeople are welcomed into the
church. And I love being welcomed into
the church. I love a hug.
I love that conversation. But as I was thinking about
autism, I started to think aboutsocial anxiety.
I started to think about trauma,and then I started to think, so
(18:26):
you've got someone that's had a traumatic experience, that's
walking into a church that doesn't want to be touched and
doesn't want to have that. Are we acknowledging that?
Do we understand that? Because we know that we've got
congregations of lots of different people, but we still
expect everybody to fit into that box.
(18:47):
So I think it's understanding who's in the congregation as
best as you can. I put a clause on that because
you're not social workers. Ministers step into that world
of social work, doctor, nurse, OT, everything.
Try to just have a little bit ofan understanding and I think the
(19:08):
educational part of what is neurodiversity, educating
yourself within your sphere as to what that is so that you can
recognise it a little bit more. It's not about labelling and
thinking that person's clearly autistic because they behave in
whatever way. It's about understanding how
(19:28):
someone might interact with another person.
Can I just jump in there? And what you may not know is
Ishpeel is an elder in, in, in the church in, in Southport.
Our church in Southport, aren't you?
She was the first female elder in the history of that church.
(19:50):
Thank you, Sir. I'm surprised it was a man who
clapped first. Maybe you ladies.
What percentage did you get for,you know, for the vote?
99. We are still trying to find out,
but I'm on it. I think I know who it is and I'm
(20:12):
going to go and get them. So as an elder of the church,
right, one of the elders of the church, how do you in, in your
church? How, how do you identify people
coming in? I mean, you don't have a desk
and people got to check in all your ailments and all your
(20:33):
problems. How How is?
How does that generally naturally flow?
Well, my experience not just in my church but in other churches
is, you know, when people have certain issues or diagnosis
because there's been an issue. So normally it's the issue that
(20:57):
precedes the actual understanding of what's going on
for somebody. So.
I love my church, does everything perfectly.
It's the one that does. Is it recording but I?
Don't think we're quite at a place where we understand what
people are coming in with. And I also think that we can't
(21:18):
necessarily because people are are allowed to keep a bit back.
Not everyone has to come in and say I've got ADHD or I'm
autistic. That's where that adaptability
is, that you might have somebodythat might not be ADHD or might
not even know that they're ADHD,but surprisingly sitting over
there where they've got the sensory facilities or they're
(21:40):
able to utilise something works for them and that might be an
awakening for them, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you do anything about dyslexia with you mentioned
about this screen and the words and stuff.
Is there anything not yet? She's on, she's on a campaign.
Watch out Southport. But what could we do?
What, what? What could we do?
(22:01):
Do you know what we could do? Yeah.
So there is facilities to be able to enhance documents so
that it is dyslexia friendly. We do it in schools all the
time, don't we? There's certain screens that
people can use and there's also resources that can be friendly
for people that may be dyslexic.Also within ADHD, understanding
(22:24):
large chunks of information is really difficult.
People switch off, you know, theattention element of ADHD means
to say that if you've got your Bible paragraph up at the front,
you're not likely to listen to it.
So having smaller chunks maybe in resources or facilities like
(22:45):
that could be helpful. Good.
OK, so let's carry on and ask how we can, you know more
practical strategies that we canuse.
You mentioned about sensory friendly services.
What else? Yeah.
So I've written some bits down here, so I'm going to have a
look at my notes. But please, if there's anything
on here that you guys are that isn't on here that you're doing,
(23:08):
save it and tell us about it because we want to know.
OK. So we've talked about the
sensory friendly services, a quiet area.
Paul, you mentioned that alreadythat there are some churches
potentially having a quiet area.I think that the quiet areas
that I've seen in churches just happen to be an area where
people congregate. It's not necessarily a specific
(23:31):
area that might work. People might not want a big neon
light saying over here is the area that you can go and sit if
you've got a sensory issue. But also for some people, they
actually might need a neon light.
They might need someone to say we are a neuro diverse friendly
church and. Here's a facility for you and
(23:52):
how that's done in a discreet way could be helpful.
So a quiet place also in certainchurches, the quiet place is
also sometimes used for people who want to go and have
conversations. So having a place that is
specific for that as a sensory area may also be helpful.
(24:13):
That it's not a place to go and have a chat with your friend
that you've not seen all week and a coffee during the service
because the past is a bit boring.
It's a place that someone can goand be able to utilize the
resource over there. Lighting.
We talked a little bit about lighting and sound and the
impact. Of that for people and you're a
(24:33):
diverse so an area maybe if you're not going to do it in
your whole church depending on how big your church is with
dimmer lights or use softer lighting.
One of the things that people with ADHD have treated 3 1/2
thousand people now most of themsay to me, I don't go shopping,
(24:53):
I cannot stand the lights in a supermarket.
So if you are going to neglect doing your weekly shop because
it's too bright, I think you're going to probably think about
the church that you go to. If the lighting feels like you
can't concentrate and we're talking about sensory issues,
that isn't just a sensitivity and irritation.
(25:15):
I'll get over it, love. It's something that is so
distracting. It's it's agitating.
It's a physical thing that people feel.
So it's. Significant, so dimming
lighting, softer lighting and maybe reducing the volume.
Or one of the things that I've thought about is air defenders.
(25:37):
They don't have to be massive air defenders anymore.
I've seen some really nice little discreet ones.
People don't have to walk in with big headphones on.
So having something that just softens that for people could be
helpful. And also the areas that people
sit, don't sit near the drummer.It's if you've got sensory
(26:03):
issues, having the area at the front where you are right by the
speakers and that is the last place that people can sit.
Remember, we've talked about people that may not want to be
welcomed, so may come in late. And therefore the only seating
that might be available is rightthere by the speaker, by the
drummer. So we've got to be mindful of
(26:25):
those sorts of things as well. That's good.
Visual supports like we talked about provide visual schedules
or written bulletins for services so that people could
prepare beforehand. And we talked about some of the
dyslexia resources that might beavailable to translate some of
(26:46):
the other areas around providingsocial support.
Now I'm really keen on the social support element of
neurodiversity. If you've got a church where
people are able to connect well with one another, the pastor
shouldn't be everything to everybody.
So a buddying system and understanding who else is neuro
diverse in the church. Maybe if that's the area that
(27:06):
people are sitting in, it's not about segregation.
It's about just buddying up and supporting one another, clearly
outlining the expectations. So not just the expectations of
what the service is. I don't know about your church.
In my church they explain every Sunday what's going to happen.
So people are clear as to how long things are going to be on
(27:29):
for, how things are going to run.
But also, if you have as a minister someone that you think
maybe neuro diverse in your church, having a conversation
about what the expectations are of them, you're allowed to have
that conversation. You are allowed to say, if you
want to be communicated with, how do you want that to happen?
(27:52):
If you are perceived as maybe being a little bit rude or
agitated, what would you like usto do?
Do you want us to leave you or do you want us to have a
conversation with you? Do you want me to come to you
face to face or do you want me to ring you?
When we talk to our neuro diverse patients, one of the
things that we always ask is howdo you want to be communicated
(28:13):
with? If you ask my husband I can say
this, who's been recently diagnosed with ADHD, how do you
want to be? Communicated with Do you want a
phone call or a text? He'd say never ring me, never
ring me. I don't like speaking to people
on the phone, it's something that I find stressful.
Text him, you might hear back from him in a year's time.
(28:36):
But anxiety provoking communication can put people
off, so understanding what theircommunication is is very
important. Training for volunteers.
I'm so happy with how many people have come here,
(28:56):
especially people that didn't even have never really seen me
before. There's no fans here.
You're here because it's something that you're interested
in. That says to me that within your
churches you might have some champions, some neuro diverse
champions that you might want tolook at running with this and
supporting an initiative like this.
(29:19):
Good. Just press pause there for a
moment. You, you just said that you've
worked with 3 1/2 thousand. That's a lot.
That's a lot. You know how many?
Like in what period of time? So I've been working, working in
(29:40):
neurodiversity 4, four years now.
Three or four years, yeah. And and I don't know how many
years ago it started to surface,but it's not been long, has it?
Well, it has. That's misconception.
(30:01):
Oh yeah. So.
Am I misconceived? Yes, you really are that.
Won't be the first time. Yeah, it's, it's, it's been
around for a very long time. The the misconception is that
it's a new thing. It's been successfully being
treated since probably the late mid 60s.
(30:22):
Never. Yeah, very successfully treated.
Did you know that? But what has?
Happened is social media. So about four years ago, TikTok
exploded with social media postsabout ADHD.
Not only were they very clear inunderstanding what symptoms were
(30:48):
of ADHD, so people saw it and they thought wow, but couple
that with TikTok being perfect for somebody with ADHD because
of the way the dopamine hits work so it exploded.
People saw it and they thought this is what I'm experiencing.
I understand so and when you when you've diagnosed for people
(31:10):
have you is that good for them to know how what what
experiences have you had have seen that when it's dawned on
them. Yeah, I mean, it's life
changing. It's absolutely life changing
for people that have a diagnosisbecause we're not talking about
treatment. Treatment is highly successful
for ADHD, you know, and, and, and we talk about that a lot.
(31:32):
It changes people's lives. Medication and therapy alongside
it. But people have walked with this
all their lives thinking it's something to do with me.
I can't concentrate, I don't think clearly, I can't make eye
contact, I can't function like anormal human being.
And the more that I work with neurodiversity, the more I
(31:54):
realized that actually there isn't anything such that no such
thing as normal. There's just people that see the
world in very different ways andwe've got to adapt to that.
Brilliant, brilliant. OK, let's come back to just
continue. Tell us more stuff.
Yeah. So OK.
(32:16):
Thank you. So other areas are around
enhancing communication styles. We've talked a little bit about
the resources that you can use, but using alternative
communication methods. Depending on how many people you
have in your church population that might be neuro diverse, you
might want to think about specific services or groups that
(32:38):
are specifically for people thatare neuro diverse and how they
can that can be adapted for them.
Simplifying language, ensuring that the language that is used
in the services is really clear.I was listening to somebody the
other month who at the beginningof his sermons he describes
(33:00):
exactly who he's talking about. He talks as though people that
are coming to the church have never even looked at a Bible so
that they understand exact, thatthere's no assumption of
knowledge. And that's really important.
Even if you are going through a sermon series and talking about
the same person, Matthew, for example, each week he would
(33:21):
explain exactly who that is. And that inclusivity enables
people to keep coming back to church because they feel that
they're a part of something. Which is what we're supposed to
be doing, isn't it? It's good, OK.
OK. And then the flexibility around
the worship options, it's reallydifficult to do this.
(33:42):
It's very difficult to adapt this.
I appreciate that. But thinking about the air
defenders that we talked about and maybe having conversations
with individuals who might identify as neuro diverse as to
if you're running multiple services, if you're a church
that's that large, whether you want to adapt a service and the
(34:03):
worship options. So that's inclusive for people
that are are struggling to engage with that.
Talked a little bit about building that neuro diverse
community and supporting people to interact with one another and
having the conversations with other with the congregation
about neuro diversity. So it feels inclusive and people
(34:24):
can be a part of that and fostering that culture of
understanding in the same way that we've been championing
around mental health and celebrating it, celebrating
neuro diversity. To me, neuro diversity is a
gift. It's a way that people look at
things. I love the way that neuro
diverse people look at things. I love it.
(34:46):
I love the way that they see things so clearly.
And I think, I wish I could say it like that without all the
other emotions and things that are involved in it.
And I think celebrating that instead of trying to change it
is something that we need to be doing.
Can. You just expand on that a little
bit because that's really interesting.
That's I find that fascinating that because it, I get it that
(35:08):
it's a gift and it's a, you know, we've, we've said that
we've celebrated that. But what kind of things do do
they, what are the strengths? What, what kind of strengths are
you seeing? You see they, they see things
clearly. What do you mean by that?
Yeah, so I mean, I I wouldn't want to lay.
So remember every the reason it's called autism spectrum
(35:30):
disorder is because it is a spectrum.
That doesn't mean to say we all sit on it.
It means to say that people havedifferent symptoms within that
spectrum. But if I was thinking about
somebody with autism, some of myamazing patients are so direct.
They just say exactly how it is.They don't have any of the dress
or any of the fluff. They say it.
And when it offends somebody, they don't understand that
(35:53):
because they said, but I've justtold you the truth now.
But I want somebody who says that on the welcome team.
Maybe not, but there's definitely, I want someone like
that 'cause I want the truth andI don't want the emotion of it.
And I think there's places wherethat can be celebrated.
(36:14):
I think the way that somebody with ADHD, but for certain
people, the way their mind works, the way that they are so
quick to think, the way that they are so innovative and
passionate. They might not see everything
through because they lose focus,but those ideas are amazing.
Those ideas have built some of the most incredible businesses
(36:36):
in this world. It's getting the right support
around it so that it can be seenthrough.
Brilliant. Really helpful.
OK, let's let's let's let's carry on.
OK. And finally, collaboration with
other neurodiverse organisations, you're not alone.
There's neurodiverse services inareas, there's support services,
(36:59):
and I think it's about bringing that on board and looking at
what locally people are doing. I think it's an amazing
initiative as well. When I was talking to someone
about me speaking about this today, they said they were
asking why I wanted to talk about it.
And I said because I feel like we have loads of people that
when something doesn't fit in the church, they're able to go
(37:21):
to the next church down the road.
And I don't want anyone to come to my church and think, oh, I
can't get my needs. Next time you're a diverse, I'm
going to go to the next church down the road.
It's not good enough. We have to meet that need and I
don't think churches are doing that.
And I think that there is a cohort of people in communities
(37:44):
that are lonely and isolated andfeel like they don't fit in and
don't feel like their voices areheard, and a church could be the
most nurturing place for them. See, This is why you you, you
are such a gift to Elam because you are a provoker like a
prophetic provoker for us because this is I, I feel my
(38:08):
heart when you do these sessionsnormally outside of the church
that you do day sessions. Don't you know all of this with
companies and here we are within40 minutes got to get through
everything. So it's a, a big, you know,
information load to receive, butI, I feel provoked by it in a
(38:30):
very, very positive way. And I'm sure you do as well too.
I like the fact that we can makesmall changes, just just
something small and it can change somebody's experience of
church, can't it? And you've identified those
small things and really appreciate that too, so that we
(38:52):
can be the church that people ofall different types of
neurodiversity can feel. I can, I can stay here.
I can have an experience of God here.
And thank you for welcoming justlike anybody.
That's a beautiful church, isn'tit?
(39:14):
Thank you. Pause.
And now I'll take this microphone to you.
And we're going to just have a time now to have Q&A.
So the first hand is right at the back.
Thank you, Sir. It's always good to start off
(39:36):
with someone, just say your nameand then ask your question.
Hi, my name's Simon. Earlier on you mentioned just in
passing that rigid service structure might be an issue.
Now, I that immediately pricked up my ears because I thought I
was under the misconception perhaps that actually having a
(39:56):
predictable service structure was actually helpful for people.
So which is it? Is it both?
What? It depends on which neurodiverse
issue that you have. So I think it's about
understanding what the structureis.
So you're right to say that somebody with autism is going to
(40:18):
feel more comfortable with a understanding of what that
structure is. And there may be rigidity in
that. But then someone with ADHD may
struggle with that, and they maystruggle with the sitting down
for 40 minutes, and they may struggle with that time
constraints of things. And that's why it's about the
adaptability or the understanding of different
(40:41):
people's needs. How do you cope with both?
Yeah, yeah. And it.
And it feels like that, doesn't it, that you've got one end over
here and another end over here. I think it's about the
communication. So I think it's about the
understanding, like I say, of how the structure of the service
is going to be. But I think it's also about
(41:04):
being able to adapt to each person's need.
So you might have somebody that is welcoming of the rigidity,
like we've just said, who feels comfortable with it and actually
if it changes, could feel quite uncomfortable.
But then you've got someone thatstruggles with that.
It's about having the conversation with both people.
You're going to have the conversation with the person
(41:25):
potentially that has ADHD that struggles with that and say,
where's best for you to sit? How can we handle this?
How can we support you? But maybe you might have a less
rigid service in the evening anda more rigid service in the
morning if you have the flexibility of that.
(41:45):
Hi, my name is Dave. I was recently, well recently
within the last couple of years,diagnosed with ADHD as an adult.
I, I found it incredibly helpfulto be diagnosed.
As you said, I finally understood I could put a name on
(42:07):
a lot of the things that I had struggled with.
And I, one of the things that I've been on as a, as a journey
of, of, of trying to understand what it means to be neuro
diverse and a disciple of Jesus and a follower of Jesus is
battling through the shame I have felt for such a long time
(42:34):
of how I wasn't able to spend regular time praying or reading
scripture and how those essential spiritual disciplines
felt for me as a, as a, as a, asa person who had no idea that
(42:54):
this was a thing. And I get the impression now
that there were just so many people who have never, ever been
able to vocalize that. And I wonder if some of the
language that is used specifically from the front of a
church about how we explore, howwe, how we pray and, and connect
(43:21):
with God through the Scripture, through socially, through each
other, and what that feels like.If some of that language needs
to change in order for someone who is undiagnosed to be able to
feel like they're not like that.They're heard in some way and
(43:44):
not feel and not kind of go throughout life and, and have
years and years of, of just built up shame and, and just
about stuff like that. So.
Yeah, No, I, I couldn't. Yeah, I I completely agree.
Thank you for sharing that. I think the legalistic approach
(44:09):
of Christianity is not helpful for someone that is neuro
diverse. And we are now moving through
generations that there are children in our kids church who
are potentially neuro diverse and we have to help them to
understand that their relationship with Jesus is an
individual relationship. It is not a regimented
(44:31):
ritualistic behaviour that they have to perform.
And I've grown up in a church being told that I have to pray
sitting down with my hands together.
I found out recently that I praybetter when I'm walking, talking
to Jesus. Somebody with ADHD,
(44:53):
concentrating, sitting down, praying, floating off into
something else or to a differentthought.
Having a regimented view that you have to read a certain
amount of chapters every day of the Bible, that's very difficult
when a lot of people with ADHD would say to me, I can't read, I
struggle to read and reading a sentence over and over again is
(45:15):
a problem for me. So reformulating what we have
been force fed and told our relationship and our worth as a
Christian is, is part of that process and I'm glad that you're
able to go through that now. Very well, thank you.
(45:39):
Thank you, Pastor Paul and good afternoon, everyone.
I think the presentation is veryenlightening, these concepts and
ideas. I have some knowledge of it but
for the college from where I come from which is South
America, Guyana and you might beable to spot a few if you like
(46:02):
symptoms so to speak. People who may have ADHD or
might be dyslexic but they mightnot be aware of it.
My question to you, would it be something that a pastor should
do is to maybe encourage them toget tested or check out to see
(46:27):
if there is something that they might need to pay attention to.
Because I believe, and I believewe agree in this room that those
challenges is not just within the local church, but it's
affect their entire lives. And so they have issues in their
relationships as well. And sometimes their partners
(46:50):
either see them as stupid or they're tired talking them this
way. And so this is frustration.
And of course, the frustration bubbles over into services.
And unfortunately or unfortunately, some of those
individuals might even be in leadership because they have not
been diagnosed. They have just been challenged
(47:12):
through their lives. And they just keep, you know,
because they're not stupid. They might be very academic, but
it just they really had to fightto get to where they are.
How do we approach those individuals to maybe let them
know they might be a challenge because we are not doctors so we
can't tell them you are this well.
We suspect that there are some. There are some things here that
(47:35):
might need some checking out. So I think there's a huge amount
of sensitivity that's needed within this, isn't there?
And if I say that some of my closest friends have got ADHD,
but I wouldn't tell them they have, hopefully they're not here
and listening. It's really, it's, it's a
(47:56):
process. It's a process of realization
for a lot of people. So when it's told to them, it
can be quite destabilizing. The most emotional sessions that
I've had with patients is in those final 10 minutes of the
diagnosis. They've gone through the whole
process with me that everything's pointed to ADHD
(48:20):
from them being a child. They're now 55 year old man.
And then in those final moments,I say, OK, I'm probably going to
give you a diagnosis of ADHD. 9 times out of 10, people start to
cry. They can't believe it.
They knew it, but they couldn't believe it.
So having those conversations are going to be difficult, but
(48:44):
that gentle ease towards it around what the symptoms they're
experiencing may be helpful. If you're struggling to listen,
have you always struggled to listen when you're saying, when
you when your wife's saying to you that you don't really listen
anymore, Is that something new or is that something that you've
always had? Starting to tease out and
(49:04):
understand who they are will be helpful.
But I think it's also within a church environment, like we've
said, having a space where people don't have to conform,
whether you've got ADHD or not, if you notice somebody and I'm
not talking to you, that's walking out now.
But if you notice somebody in your church that gets up and
(49:25):
moves around a lot, having a conversation with them and
saying there's a space over there so that you can feel
comfortable to to move around. There's no problem with that.
I'm not being critical. I've just noticed that you do it
and it's absolutely fine. So just noticing the symptoms
and having that space. But if you have the
relationship, have a gentle conversation.
(49:46):
It's good. It's good.
Got a gentleman here. Thank you.
Yes, my name is Roy. I just thank God that you were
around and people like you because I have a 55 year old son
who's had ADHD all his life. He was diagnosed at 7 by an
American professor, Ben Feigold,as having ADHD.
(50:09):
When this country just ignored it.
They didn't know anything about it.
He's the little boy that didn't get his own way in the
supermarket. You knew about it.
He is much better now and he's married.
But even this afternoon after metelling him at weekend there
will be a way all week and I wouldn't be contactable.
(50:32):
I had a new phone which I couldn't switch off and I was
next door and he rang and because I didn't answer or
switched it off, he rang again. So I had to go out and he
couldn't understand. And that's even now he has
problem. And so I thank goodness that
it's accepted in this country. Paul said he didn't know about
(50:53):
it. It was a late thing.
But it's only in the last few years that this country have
started accepting ADHD. So I just thank you and thank
God for the people like. You.
That's a lovely testimony. Bless you some.
We've got so many hands raised up now.
We knew this was going to happen, so give me your hands.
(51:17):
You're the nearest to me. Thank you so much, Good
afternoon. My name is Nicola.
I was just wondering if you could help with some practical
ideas that if for example, myself, I work with that as well
and some people in the church are aware of issues like this
(51:40):
but others are not, what's a good way of making the entire
church community, congregation accepting, understanding where
sometimes it may be a a culturaldifficulty?
Great. Well, what you do is that you
invite Ishbel to come and speak.That's what you sorry.
Over to you. I'm not the answers, sorry.
(52:02):
Yeah, I think it's, I think it'sabout having the conversations
within the churches, isn't it? And I think it's about having
maybe a platform to be able to speak about what you're doing
that you're adapting it. So let's use the analogy around
wheelchair accessibility. If you were to say to the
church, we're putting a ramp in and we're making sure that lift
(52:23):
is fully functioning because we want people that are in
wheelchairs are able to come in.You don't need to explain that
you supporting them. You don't need to explain that
you believe that they can't walk.
You don't need to explain that you are on board with diagnosis
of being unable to walk, whatever that is.
I think we don't necessarily need to go into it too much.
(52:45):
I think I would hope that we're moving through to a point where
we accept it. It exists, it is a thing, and
it's been around a long time. Thanks.
So hi, I'm Renee. Sort of.
We have a lot of send children and autistic children in our
(53:06):
church. We do all we can.
Sometimes the parents are on board, sometimes one of the mums
is slightly send herself. So that doesn't help in, you
know, dealing with the situation.
She's very loud and telling her children off at the back where
they generally congregate, whichis fine.
It can be chaos on some Sunday mornings.
(53:30):
We don't have room. We are a fairly small church for
building a sensory room. We have a creche listening to
you. Now I'm thinking, do we adapt it
into a sin room instead? But then where the nursing
mothers go, it is very difficultto have free worship and let the
Holy Spirit move and to have that freedom in our worship
(53:51):
time. At the beginning we may have
half hour, sometimes it may be longer.
How do you help? I mean, we, we embrace the
defenders, we have all of this, but we still get many complaints
because sometimes it's too long,sometimes it's too loud.
We don't have a quiet space. There isn't facility to have a
quiet space. It is, you know, we do all we
(54:12):
can, but when we want to allow the spirit to move and things do
get loud and things do get different.
How do you encompass all of thatin in a church, you know,
environment? Good question.
Well, I'll speak a bit, but I'd like you to maybe answer from a
minister's perspective. But I think you, you can't fit
(54:34):
everything, can you? You can only adapt to a certain
extent. So you can only support with
what you have. You've not got a sensory room.
You could and you know, I don't know what your church buildings
like. You could have an area at the
back where there are fidget toysand activities that you haven't.
You've got all of that, OK. I think the communication, the
(55:02):
communication around you trying to adapt things, the air
defenders, maybe the support, I think so communication is really
important for the individuals, but also for the church for them
to understand that you are an inclusive church where people,
you're encouraging people to come and that's not going to
(55:24):
conform to exactly how you want it.
But the flip side is also for the neuro diverse people that
you are still a church and you're there to do a job and you
want to be able to do that freely.
So it's how that meets in the middle.
And I think communication is really important.
I think also just on your point about the moment, the back that
(55:44):
might haven't, you know, parenting queries, it's also
what she feels the expectation is of her.
I'm not saying that you or any of the leadership team are
making her feel like a children should be quiet.
But sometimes I know as a motherof four, the pressure of how I
think people perceive my children makes me respond in a
(56:07):
certain way. So if I've got a child that is
naughty, I'm not really worried about my child being naughty
because she's naughty at home. But if she's in Tesco's, I'm
thinking that lady's looking at me.
So my response might be slightlydifferent.
And I think in church, hopefullywe can open up to say parents in
(56:28):
a healthy way. But we're not judging you
because we know parenting is really difficult.
Yeah. I'm ignoring hands because time
has gone and I can't. And that answer was clinical
professional plus elder. So I'm really sorry I can't take
(56:54):
any more questions, but I'm really pleased that we've got to
the end of the time and we've still got questions because
actually that's a good seminar. And we just hope that it is just
being a catalyst to, to, for youto go away and do some more
thinking. Ishpell, you can see for those
(57:18):
who've just met her for the first time, you can see how
Ishpell has been and is a massive gift and a blessing to
the Eland denomination. And I want us to put our hands
together and say thank you to her.
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