May 16, 2025 • 64 mins
In this session, we will consider how we raise women to lead and minister in our communities, workplaces, churches and the mission field. This session will give some context about the history and experience of women in ministry in Elim, and discuss how we recognise the call-in women’s lives, cultivate gifting, and encourage women to fulfil their call.
Pastor Michelle Nunn was appointed Principal of Regents Theological College in August 2024, having served as Senior Pastor of Nantwich Elim for many years. She has also served as a member of Elim’s NLT since 2022.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Good afternoon. It's really good to see you here
this afternoon. How are you?
Good, good, good. Actually, before we get into the
presentation, it'd be really good to just understand what's
drawn you to the session. OK, So I would guess, you know,
I'm Michelle. I'm a principal of the Bible
(00:21):
College. I'm a member of ELIMS national
leadership team and I've done quite a lot of work over recent
years, particularly helping to raise and empower women in the
movement and back in, well, it seems like a long time ago, back
in 2017, I finished some research across the movement
(00:45):
looking at how we could empower and release women in ministry
specifically. And that was part of my master's
work. And we've used that as a
movement and the Women in Ministry review group have used
that research as we've sought toadvance women within the
(01:05):
movement. So I'll give you an opportunity
to ask some questions along the way, but I just wanted to know
as as a start, the presentation,as a start to speak, you know
what, what are the different situations?
What are there? What's going on for you that's
brought you here today? So any anyone want to respond so
(01:29):
we don't have an awkward silence?
Oh, where are we? OK, shout out for us.
Yeah, brilliant. Lovely.
(01:58):
OK, so just for those who couldn't hear what's a new
women's ministry being restartedand trying to think about what
they need to do, what Elim wouldencourage you to do in terms of
empowering women. That's that's right.
Yeah. Any anyone else?
Yeah. I'll pass you the mic and then
(02:20):
you can thank. You, I know for myself, there
have been times when I've been boxed in as a woman and I've
been boxed into like the administration role, even though
like I had gift Inns and teaching and prophecy.
And I don't want that to happen to other women.
I want to be able to be of assault for God to work through,
to release other women and empower other women.
(02:44):
Thank you anyone else. Thank you.
A pastor's wife. And I just feel like I don't
want to be pastor's wife. I want to be a woman.
Yeah. A woman.
(03:05):
Yes, a minister. A woman minister.
And well done. You give us.
I think when I see you, Michelle, I see, you know, it
gives me the. What's the word?
I feel like I'm inspired when I see you in ministry and in
leadership. So well done.
Even with your speech yesterday,it was amazing to see you there
(03:28):
with the men. Thank you.
I know I just stole it, but I'm at a pastor's wife, but I'm the
Apostolic 1 and I wasn't allowedin the room for a long time.
What do you do with that? OK.
(03:56):
Could we put the sound up a little for for those
particularly sitting towards theback?
That's good. Is is that tell me if it gets
better? Brilliant.
Brilliant. Is there anyone else who's got
something different to bring or?Yeah.
I'm actually part of a leadership team and we've not
(04:17):
had a pastor for the last three years.
So there's four of us, two womenand two men, who have shared the
preaching and become leaders almost by no choice of our own
for the last three years. Wonderful.
Wonderful. Well, it's, you know, sometimes
those spaces are good, aren't they?
(04:38):
Because it allows us to start toexercise gifts that we didn't
know that that we had. So yeah.
I've recently become a minister in my church, and my husband
isn't in ministry, and he's a leader in his own right, more
politics and media. So sometimes, you know, it feels
(04:58):
a bit like I'm on a bit of a journey on my own.
Yeah. Well, I can relate to that.
My husband, he has his vocation.It's not in church ministry.
He leads a family business and, you know, supported me all of my
ministry. But I can honestly say he
doesn't really want the platform.
(05:20):
He'd rather be in the sound, youknow, doing the sound desk or
something supportive. But so it can work.
It can work the different situations.
God calls us it from different situations.
Anyone. Anyone else?
(05:40):
I've just started, well, I say just started, it's been a few
years now overseeing our children and our young people
and families work. So I've got a real heart for
like the young women and young girls in our church as well as
their mums and and female influencers in their life.
So just how I can help support raise them up really as well.
That's. Great.
(06:03):
Wonderful. I'm getting some steps in.
This is good. I could do maybe 5000 today.
So we've got a number of young women in our church from the age
of 20 to 30, and they want to step out.
(06:24):
They want to grow in their leadership and their ministries.
And I want to know how to help them do that, to empower them to
do that and essentially, you know, be their mentor and put in
this space for them to grow. So that's why I'm here, hoping
to get a few Nuggets. Excellent, Excellent.
I mean, just to say that, you know, often we see a
(06:46):
breakthrough with men's attitudeto women in ministry.
That often comes when they have daughters and they see them.
Yeah. And, and they see, you know, the
potential in their daughters andthe daughters call.
And so we have many men in the movement who are very pro women
(07:08):
and very, very supportive of women.
I think that's going to get in my my way.
So, yeah, as I start today's presentation, then I'm going to
talk about how we raise women tolead and minister in our
communities, in our workplaces, in our churches and on the
mission field. I'm going to give some context
(07:31):
about Pentecostal history. Is that all right?
And talk about the experience ofwomen in Elim.
And then I'm going to talk abouthow we can recognize the call in
women's life and how we can cultivate gifting and encourage
one another to fulfill their call.
All right, so now I'm going to make sure that we have some time
(07:54):
that you can ask some questions as as well.
So let me click us on to some Pentecostal history.
So I, I don't know, we don't tend to look back that often,
but, but just briefly, I think it is really important to
(08:18):
understand our history a little bit and to understand the what's
happened in the Pentecostal movement and, and actually
understand that particularly forwomen, that actually where we
started isn't always where we'vebeen.
So if you were to go back to thebeginning of the Pentecostal
(08:38):
movement, you would have what I tend to refer to as an
egalitarian impulse, OK, That there was this sort of impulse
within the movement that sort ofsaid the Spirit could use
anybody and the Spirit was free to use anybody.
And that would happen in the early days of the Pentecostal
(09:01):
movement. Overtime, things change.
And we'll look at that in relation to Elim in a minute.
But what you see is that the Pentecostal movement has
Pentecostal waves. Are you familiar with that?
We might talk about the third wave or but if we go back to the
beginning, the early 1900s, although this spirit was moving
(09:22):
before then the there's the first Pentecostal wave and we
think of movements that were established sort of that go back
to the Azusa period. But we have to recognize that
stuff was going on elsewhere. So in India there was a revival
(09:42):
and in other nations as well. And we would think of the Welsh
revival as well. That's very much part of our
heritage in Elim. So we're what you call a
classical Pentecostal movement, OK, because our roots go back
that far. But then you'll see if you look
at the second wave, we're talking around the 60s time and
(10:05):
actually there's a move of the Spirit that starts to impact the
Catholic Church and the Anglicans.
And that's known as sort of the charismatic renewal.
And you'll know movements like new wine that have come out of
that renewal. If we go on 1975 onwards, then
(10:26):
we're looking at it's sort of what we call the Neo
charismatics and there are new churches being birthed as part
of the charismatic move. And often you'll find there are
some subtle differences about the reception of the Holy
Spirit. So we would believe that the
Holy Spirit baptism is somethingseparate, it's something
(10:48):
subsequent to our conversion andthat we would believe it's a
moment of empowering for missionand ministry.
So, but not all of the second wave, 3rd wave would believe
that. Some would be believing that
actually the Spirit. And we do believe that the
Spirit, we do receive an infilling, if you like, of the
(11:08):
Spirit AD conversion. But we believe in this second
powerful experience of baptism that really empowers us for
ministry, maybe the release of the gift of tongues, certainly a
sort of increase in our ability to love people and our sense of
(11:29):
gifting as well. So any questions on that before
I move on? It just gives us a bit of
context or yeah, we're OK. So if we just think about Elim
on that far side, that's the beginning of things in Elim.
So we go back to 1915 and we've got George Jeffries and the
(11:52):
evangelistic band. As we move forward, we've got
women at that time. So it's particularly mistreat
who's part of the band. And there are others, but the
even then there was situations where the women were excluded
from some of the council meetings.
OK. But there were situations also
(12:16):
where it's been noted that womenwere left out and then were able
to prophecy what happened at themeeting.
And then the men felt, oh, we better include them anyway.
So I just think there, you see, the Holy Spirit is in work.
All of this. Yeah.
The Holy Spirit. So The thing is for us as women
is, you know, we do need, we do need to take our faith seriously
(12:42):
as women and men. Yeah, we need to actually, you
know, as Pentecostals, we need to seek the baptism and the
empowerment of the Spirit. And we need to listen to the
call of God. You know, I wouldn't be here if
I wasn't called. I wouldn't have made it.
I wouldn't have, I wouldn't havebeen sustained in ministry.
(13:03):
But if you're called, you'll be equipped.
You'll be empowered. You'll be sustained, you know
so, but I encourage you as womenof God to really dig deep with
God and to be listening to the Holy Spirit, to allow the Holy
Spirit to guide your ministry and not to just get caught up
(13:24):
in, in what I would want, but actually be in the flow of the
Spirit. Because if you're not called to
ministry, then you're called to something else.
And the most exciting place to be is in the will of God, right?
So we want to be where the Spirit has called us to.
And what we had in these early days was amazing women who were
(13:47):
counter cultural in there, there, you know, breaking three,
if you like, some of the conventions of the time and
evangelist well-being evangelistic and and actually
birth that being there at the beginning of the birth of the
movement is quite widely accepted in Pentecostal circles,
(14:09):
particularly in Europe, that often it was women that would
move into areas and, and do the business of planting churches.
And often what would happen is those women would grow the
church to a certain size where they were ready for a pastor.
And then a man would come in andpastor the church.
And those women would either stay and continue to build or
(14:32):
they would move on and, and church plant again.
So, so we have women right at the beginning of the movement,
very, very active, as you'll know, in other movements around
the world. You know, women, very, very
prominent, Amy Semple McPherson,others, very prominent women
that the Holy Spirit was using. But we have, and I won't spend
(14:53):
too much time on this, we get toabout the 30s and there seems to
be this question of ordination. And it's decided at that point
in the 30s that women shouldn't be ordained.
And there's various things that happen over time.
They are initially allowed to bein the Bible college, but again,
(15:16):
something happens around the four to early 40s where women
are excluded from the Bible college for a season and that
changes, reverts back after a while as well.
There are funny things that happen like in the early
magazines and periodicals, initially the women's names are
(15:37):
listed alongside the men, but then there are various where
actually the women's names get taken out and admitted.
Perhaps as the movements growing, it's harder to detail
those things, but at various points it keeps coming back up.
This issue of should we ordain women?
(15:57):
So in the end of the 30s, thirty, 73942 and 48, there are
debates on those, on those things and over time the women
get referenced in different ways.
There's a time when the women are referenced as the sisters
and then that terminology changes to the ladies and so on.
(16:19):
There are various things that happen through history, but a
couple of things perhaps to, to point out is that that, you
know, this isn't happening in isolation in the elim context.
There are things going on in thewider context that are
influencing. So our relationship with the
(16:41):
evangelical churches and sort ofthe, the compromise, perhaps
some would argue that happened as, as we were seen as sort of
outside of the mainstream, as wedecide to be a bit more
mainstream and a bit more acceptable.
There were some compromises thatwent on.
And, and so there's some links to, if you like, the National
(17:05):
Association of Evangelicals and their acceptance of Pentecostals
that starts to keep women out ofthe picture in terms of ministry
or define women's roles, perhapsin a more complementarian way.
That would certainly be the way we'd frame it today.
So if you like, there's an adoption of evangelical
(17:30):
approaches within the Pentecostal movement that starts
to impact the roles of women within the movement.
There's also this language of sort of a prophetic priestly
divide. So it's like, well, yeah, women
can do the pastoral work. They can do the praying, they
can bring the prophecy in the church.
(17:52):
But actually when it comes to governing the church and having
in a say in how the church is organised, then actually the
women are excluded. So there's some of that language
and some of those things start to play a part and we have to
remember our eschatology. So how we understand the end
(18:13):
times. You know, actually if you think
about people thought that that Jesus was coming very soon, you
know, that was built into our Foursquare gospel.
You know, Jesus is our savior, our healer, our baptizer and the
soon coming king. So when you read back the
letters that the women wrote in response to some of these votes,
(18:36):
you know, some of the women would write, well, yeah, you
know, this is my rationale. And there's quite a clear
rationale as to, you know, you read the Bible this way.
It's absolutely fine. There are examples of women in
Apostolic roles in the Bible. That'd be women sort of giving
the teaching, if you like, in their letters in support of
(18:57):
their argument, but then sort ofsaying, well, if you men won't
give us this role, the Holy Spirit's just going to use us
anyway. And we have letters in our
archives that sort of say that from some of these amazing
women. And there were amazing women.
There were more women on the mission field than there were
(19:18):
men. And I'm just trying to think in
2017, I looked back at the data and that's been a consistent
pattern in Elim's history and elsewhere.
Because the mission field was a place of freedom.
There was some autonomy for women and and women did
incredible things and not only in our movement but but
(19:39):
elsewhere as well. So another timeline then I'll
put up in front of you just shows more recent history.
You can see there, there's the terminology.
Lady workers. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd want to
be called a lady worker, but butovertime language changes
(20:04):
because some of some of the guysare really arguing and saying
actually we need to give our women.
A place they're doing a significant work.
And you'll know that people often say today, you know, what
would happen on Sunday if the women didn't turn up?
Yeah, I was recently in the Church of Pentecost in Ghana.
(20:25):
They have women deaconesses and various other roles, but the
women don't minister. And we were talking about that
there. You know, actually what would
happen if the women didn't turn up, would church on Sunday, you
know, And so there were people recognizing within our movement
that the women were doing significant things, you know,
(20:45):
and the Spirit was moving freelyamongst women.
But there there's an argument that what started to happen is
that actually women just startedto marry.
So what you did was you married someone who was a pastor and
that sort of gave you a role within a church to minister
alongside them in different ways.
(21:06):
And there's a great book out about that analyzing the history
of of how marriage became the root of women's ordination.
I think it's Beth Allison Barr, I think the books by.
But I can always find that out for you.
So we as a movement, various things go, go on.
(21:28):
In 1999, our first women were formally ordained.
And actually you saw Marilyn last night on the stage.
Yeah, she's in that list of of the women who were ordained on
that occasion. Yes, that's, that's true.
(21:50):
Yeah, that's it. So the point being made that
they were single women because married women were being
disadvantaged at that time. Yeah.
So all of these sort of subtleties of things going on
very, very difficult for those for those involved.
We we've had some shifts in recent years.
In 2016, I got invited on our arbitration board and that was a
(22:17):
vote. Actually, I'd gone forward for
vote a few years before and I'd missed it by a couple of votes.
And anyway, they asked me, wouldI go again?
I'm think, well, yeah, I, I see.I grew up in Kent and the soils
clay in Kent. So it's like I always say, the
first whack of the spade comes back in your face.
(22:39):
And I think like, if you're going to pioneer something, you
know, if you're going to take a course to others haven't taken
before, then you have to expect a little bit of opposition,
don't you? And be a resilient to that and
just be willing to go again if you feel the spirit is leading
you in that direction. So, and that was quite a big
(23:02):
thing. The men actually were brilliant
and gracious and very quickly and caught hold of the fact that
actually they shouldn't just have one woman on the
arbitration, but actually the next time it came up for vote,
we should vote on another woman.And that's what happened.
And I think there's three women on the arbitration board today.
I had to step off later on. It was two, 2022, when I was
(23:28):
appointed as the first female onthe national leadership team.
Interestingly, Maud Win and Allison Atkinson had fought for
that, contended for that at our conferences because the wording
in our constitution had meant that only men could be in those
roles and that those battles were done 10 years earlier to
(23:53):
make it possible. So it still took ten years after
that. More recently, we've had a group
that has looked at women's experience in Elim, and I'll
talk about that in a little while, and we still have little
things to deal with. So maternity pay for ministers,
(24:15):
office holders, all of that's a little complicated because of
the tax rules. But recently we had a
breakthrough where our minister actually was able to receive
maternity pay formally through the the normal routes of
receiving that rather than something ministered by the
(24:36):
church. Oops, let's go back.
So these are the wonderful womenthat were ordained in 1999.
So some some women still ministering today who have made
incredible difference in our in our movement.
(24:56):
So I don't think we've got any in the room today.
So anyone I don't think I'll just check.
I don't think so, no. So let's just talk about women's
experience. As I mentioned before, we set up
a group called the Women in Ministry Review Group.
(25:17):
Myself and Neil Hudson were asked to Co chair that group
together, which was really good.And the idea was, was we took
stock of where we were at in themovement.
I hadn't been appointed as to the NLT at that point.
And we looked at women's experience in the movement and
(25:40):
some of that was looking back atpast master's research and
things that people have written.But also we went out and
interviewed our women ministers and we did confidential
interviews with a subsection of the women ministers to get their
experience. And actually, as it came back,
(26:02):
it was quite shocking because people had had some difficult
experiences in ministry. So what we decided we needed to
do was to lead an act of acknowledgement and make a
declaration as a movement that the things that our women had
(26:22):
experienced weren't right. And we will make a declaration
that we were going to do better basically.
So I was now three years ago, wewere given the opportunity to
speak to our ministers conference.
So that's going on now. There's the business session
with ministers and lay reps fromour churches.
(26:44):
And we spoke to that session andvery much like it is now, it was
a full room. And we we shared, and I'll share
this with you sort of word for word, I think.
So a key part of the work we said to them of the group that
we've been leading was to listento a number of women ministers
(27:06):
and record their experiences. The women spoke of their
gratitude to Elim in recognizingtheir ministry and their
commitment to continue serving the Lord within our church
family, Elim. And then we went on.
However, it's a good word, isn'tit?
(27:28):
However, they spoke of times they felt marginalized by fellow
ministers and local church leadership teams.
They spoke of times their voiless voices had been silenced
by those they sought to serve. They spoke of times they had
been bullied, treated unjustly or touched inappropriately.
(27:52):
They shared on that occasion on that on occasion they had not
been paid the same salary as their fellow male ministers in
the same church, at the same stage of ministry for doing the
same work. They shared the pension
provision had not been made for them.
They shared that they'd been refused interviews for church
(28:15):
positions simply because they were women.
They shared that they'd been told explicitly that they would
not be given the same opportunities to minister that
men in ministry had been given. They explained that there were
times when they had felt weary, disillusioned and disappointed
(28:35):
and at times deserted by the actions of their fellow
ministers. So a very sobering, sobering
moment in our history. And then we made a declaration.
We asked those who felt able to in the room to stand up.
And this was a very, very movingmoment for us and for many of
(28:58):
the women in the room. It was a moment where of where
the Spirit did something in the heart because there was a naming
of things that had gone on and and most people had experienced
something challenging in their life in ministry.
So we this was our act of acknowledgement.
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Today we acknowledge these stories of our colleagues.
Today we want to say this was men and women speaking this
together. Today, we want to say that we've
heard your testimonies. Today we want to say that we're
truly sorry for the many times your ministries have been
diminished. Today, we want to apologize
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wholeheartedly that these thingshappen to you while we were in
ministry alongside you. Today we want to stand with you
and commit to work alongside youso that others will not have to
experience the same things that you have lived through.
(30:02):
And that was the declaration that was made back in 2022 at
this at this conference. So I would say to you that lots
has improved. I would say to you that the
experience of women, there are alot more opportunities for women
(30:23):
now. About 20% of our ministers are
women, excitingly, and it is exciting, 37% of our ministers
in training are women right now.And this is really so important
because, because really for any group to make a significant
(30:48):
difference within a body such asours, you look to bring the
percentage of participation nearer to 1/3.
And so I hope by the time I retire that we will have gone
over that third. I've worked it out and I fully
expect us all things remaining constant to do that.
(31:08):
But right now we're at 20%. And of course, what that means
is that actually there is just asmall number of women leading
churches. And I think that's really
important that that actually, you know, it's, it's about women
being free to fulfill the plans of the Holy Spirit.
(31:31):
I knew when I came into ministrythat I was called to lead a
church. And actually, I, I don't think I
was the best assistant pastor because I had already been
leading out in the community. I'd LED a sizable team.
My team were responsible for delivering healthcare to 3
million people. I, I, I, just, you, you could
(31:54):
tell when you spoke to me that the, you know, the call was to
lead a lead a church. I think this is really
important, that we listen to theSpirit and we know what our call
is and we find our place within the body because we'll be most
effective wherever the Holy Spirit has called us to.
(32:16):
Very sad, I think is, you know, there are women I know who felt
called to ministry. And we're told you're over 50,
you know, or your child's disabled, you've got disabled
children. So no, There are many people
with stories of where the door was shut.
For me, it's like if the Holy Spirit has called us.
(32:38):
Yeah, then we follow the Holy Spirit.
And that was my attitude in early ministry.
I didn't really even think aboutbeing female.
It's just like the Lord spoken to me, the Holy Spirit's called
me, I'm just going to do whatever the Holy Spirit's
called me to do. And that I think helped me
because I, I just was very, veryfocused in in that regard.
(33:04):
So how are we doing for time? OK, we're doing all right.
We've got 25 minutes left. So let's let's just think about
some of the things then that that are important for us as we
move forward. And as women and men of God, I
think one of the things we really need to be conscious of
(33:28):
is that we need to call out sometimes the calling of God.
You know, when I was receiving my call to ministry, I heard God
in a number of ways. I can remember being in the big
top at mine head in those days for the Elim Leaders Conference.
(33:49):
John Glass was speaking. He was speaking on the four
faces in Ezekiel. I've got all the notes from that
meet him written down. And then he started to say,
there are people here who are called to ministry.
And he started just firing out these names.
And I can remember looking up and saying, God's, where?
(34:10):
Where's my name? And I honestly, my name came
next. All right, now that was the
first part of my call. Then I, I went back into church
life and I'm listening to God, waiting for somebody to speak to
me and waiting for the Holy Spirit to give some more
(34:33):
direction. I'm in my back garden a year or
two later when I'm at Bible college and I, you know, I'm
thinking when I'm at Bible college that I'm going back into
some sort of charity or power church organization to lead, and
then I'm in my back garden. I could go and stand on the
spot. Now is that I can remember so
(34:55):
clearly where it was and I felt the Lord say the church isn't my
church till women take their place.
And you know, I bit naive really, because you know what
it's like when you get a call like that.
It's very like, it's very narrow, isn't it, as you receive
it. But over the years it broadens.
(35:15):
So when I received that, I thought, yeah, that's an
affirmation for me. And there was some other things
that happened. Some doors opened for me to do
MIT, to work with the national director of training.
At the same time, there were some doors that opened for me,
which was great. But now I see those words you
(35:36):
see differently. See, now I received it at the
time. That was a call to me to to
pursue ministry. And of course, some others
around me started speaking into my life.
You know, Michelle, perhaps she should do Bible college or she
perhaps she should do this or when I was in Bible college or I
think you're called to ministry,you know, but now I see those
(35:59):
words. The church isn't my church till
women take their place as the asa massive as a massive thing.
You know, there's an invitation from God for women to step into
the 'cause that have been spokeninto their lives.
And so my intention right now isto just help as many women who
(36:22):
are in that position as possible.
And, and God hasn't. God done an amazing thing
because he's moved me into the Bible college.
So that's a good place. That's a good place to be
involved in those things. But I also, every other Monday
night I'm on a Zoom call with women from across different
(36:42):
ministries, some according to the Pharmaceutical industry.
There's one woman there who is around the directors table on
one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies that
there is. She has to live overseas because
she can, because of her role. And Kate Coleman Sham, cool man.
(37:04):
Some of our women here at this conference are all on those
calls and in those groups. And we are supporting each other
as women and actually calling out the greatness in one another
because actually there is something about it's very easy
to shrink yourself to fit your context.
Anyone done that? Yeah, I did it on ministerial
(37:25):
selection board. So I think it was 2016, I got
invited to be the first woman onour ministerial selection board.
Great. So sitting in the GSS office on
the armchairs, meeting people for one hour to decide whether
they had a future in ministry ornot.
The only female there, mainly men coming through the door,
(37:47):
holding very different perspective in terms of how I
was seeing the people who were coming through the door.
But in those situations, you canshrink to fit, right?
You can say, well, actually I'm not sure I quite belong here.
And if I actually say what I think, I might get chucked out
of the room. Yeah.
(38:09):
So you sort of modify and manageyourself and, and they're the
sorts of things we do as women that we need to stop doing.
So my friend Kate Coleman's written a very wonderful book on
this. If you, if you want to read it,
7 Sins of Women, 7 Deadly Sins of Women in Leadership, right.
(38:31):
I recommend that you read that book or join one of our groups
and where we'd be doing that online.
But there are all sorts of things that we do as women that
sort of diminish us and shrink us because we feel uncomfortable
with the things that the Spirit is calling us into.
Do we relate to them? So one of the things that we
(38:54):
have to do is speak to each other and say, stop that, you
know, you're awesome. Yeah.
Actually, yeah. Speak up.
Speak out, you know, actually don't accept whatever limitation
has been put on you. I can see that call in you.
(39:17):
Yeah. And once we start doing that,
it's releasing, its permissioning and we start to
grow in God. So I would encourage you that
whether it's someone mentioned the daughters, it's like
actually speak. When you see somebody do
something, speak that to them, go back to them and say, you
(39:43):
know, that was fantastic, that was brilliant.
You need to do more of that. You know, you need to speak and
encourage because I'm sure you can think of situations you've
been in where actually you've done something that that
actually moved you out of your comfort zone.
But. But actually no one necessarily
(40:05):
afterwards sort of noticed it orreferenced it.
And then you went back and thought, I must have been bad at
that. Yeah, anyone happens to me all
the time, you know, But you know, actually when.
When we're doing that, often we're misreading.
(40:25):
You know, often people will think that we're really
confident and don't necessarily need that affirmation, you know,
but actually really important for us to start naming the gifts
and naming the greatness in bothmen and women.
All right, Our boys really need our encouragement right now.
Gosh, that's another subject I could talk on.
(40:47):
But you know, both our men and our women, let's speak.
If somebody does something great, let's go tell them and
let's call out the greatness. If we get a glimpse and think,
oh, actually, you know, you should be doing this.
We feel the whisper of the Holy Spirit for somebody.
Let's go and encourage them in that.
(41:09):
Let's start calling out the greatness.
And I think we were better in the past at this as a movement,
you know, of I can remember and then regional leaders going
round churches and and they would be speaking to people and
say, actually, I think you should come to Bible college.
I think maybe we do less of thatnow and we need to just
(41:30):
determined that actually we've got a part to play in everybody
being the fullest expression of Jesus Christ that they can be
here on earth and actually beingopen to the least likely being
called. Right, You know, the least
(41:50):
likely being called because that's what Jesus was.
He, you know, he was the least likely to those in Nazareth,
wasn't he? He's like, well, how could this
Joseph Sun be doing all this? Yeah.
And then actually, we know with the disciples, Jesus didn't pick
necessarily the people that everybody else thought should be
(42:12):
leading the early church. So I want to encourage you be
calling out, be calling out one another, be calling out the
women in your churches and the men too, and be really
intentional in that. How can I help someone?
(42:35):
So I'll give you an example for me in, in our church in
Nantwich, when I was there leading, we had a young woman
who was came to us about 13. I'd come from another town.
Her family had a, you know, a healing evangelist in their
lineage. And she was just alive and on
(42:56):
fire with the Holy Spirit. And so we got a preaching young,
you know, in her teens and she was amazing.
She was just awesome. She was so full of energy.
I'd call her Tigger. But so she, she came, you know,
in 16, when she was 16, she cameand did work experience with me.
At the time I was leading the church and I was a chaplain as
(43:19):
well as at our local hospital. And she came and she shadowed me
in that. She did her A levels and then
she decided to go on the missionfield and we supported her.
In fact, I went off to Spain with my Bible and I read my
whole Bible in one week, chronologically raised money
through the church to send her to the Philippines.
(43:40):
All right, so we send her to thefiller.
It did me a lot of good reading my whole Bible in a week, I can
promise you. So we send her off to the
Philippines. She comes back after eight
months, wants to go to Bible college, goes to regions.
Wonderful. She comes out of regions, sits
in my office one day and she says, Michelle, I think I'm
(44:02):
going to be a primary school teacher.
And I'm like, well, that's great.
You know, my husband was teaching at the time.
It's like, that's that's great. Yeah, Actually, I'd like you to
go and pray about that some more.
Come back in a week and we'll we'll chat because as I'm
chatting to her, I know that theSpirit's called Ash to to lead a
(44:27):
church. All right, So I know that as I'm
sitting there with her, but so Isend her out.
Go pray, you know, she comes back.
She says I know Michelle, She says.
She says I know what you're thinking.
You know, she says, I'm called to ministry, aren't I?
(44:49):
I'm like, Phew, that was easy. So actually what it did was it's
like, actually you're called to ministry.
I'm going to create a role here for you because I know she could
go through ministering training.And at that point, which is
nearly 10 years ago, I know thatit would have been hard for her
(45:09):
to find a place as a ministeringtraining in another church.
So we made a position and actually she went to ministerial
selection board, She came through with flying colours and
she started as an assistant minister in the church.
She is now leading the church that I left.
Yeah, that's now I tell you thatbecause that's a testament to
(45:37):
what's happened in Elim. The difference, the fact that a
woman, she's 29, coming back from maternity leave for her
first child could take on an Elim church.
That's progress. That's progress.
So she's one of that small number of people under 29 who is
(45:59):
ministering in Elim and she's leading a good sized church with
some very big ministries. And but actually that takes an
intentionality, doesn't it, of calling out an individual and
actually looking at how we can intentionally make something
(46:20):
possible. And she is just an awesome woman
of God and another woman on teamwho?
There we go. Who?
Actually another person called Rachel.
I raise Rachel's. Are there any Rachel's in the
room? Well, there are a few.
(46:40):
This is the place to be. But Rachel actually in Hebrew
means shepherd, doesn't it? Yeah.
So. So the other Rachel came as
someone who didn't know Christ to our church.
And when she first came, actually a member of the
(47:01):
congregation brought her becauseshe couldn't even lift her eyes
to speak with me. Her friend had to speak with
her, such was the trauma that she was in.
Now she's spoken about this veryopenly, but after a couple of
years, she came to Christ and our community did something
beautiful. Churches do amazing things and
(47:23):
they, you know, it's like the family that we lack the church
provides. And, and there was an amazing
healing in her life and she ended up working on team and,
and again going on the mission field.
She was in my office talking about feeling cold.
(47:44):
And then again, I've like, I've got a very clear picture from
the Holy Spirit of where she's called to.
And I'm thinking, well, I don't want to tell her that because I
want her to discover it for herself through the Holy Spirit
and may be able to affirm that, right.
So, so actually that's what happened.
(48:04):
And she went off onto the mission field.
Then she came back. There was a job in church for
her. And then she studied at regions
context learning. And then at the end of that,
we're like, actually, we think you're, you're cold, you know,
collective decision. Our leaders, we create a
(48:25):
ministry role for her. And today actually, she's
leading another church in our inHanley in near Stoke on Trent.
So actually we just, we need to be calling people out, but we
need to be providing the opportunity as well.
And the the fact of the matter is we need to really help our
(48:47):
women find those open doors and opportunities at the leading of
the Holy Spirit. Now, what I've talked about
there, I couldn't do for everybody in church.
So I had to be very clear that it's the Holy Spirit.
But really important that we don't just get stuck of
thinking, oh, I could never, youknow, we just can't make that
(49:09):
role in our church or we can't do that.
But actually we think about the ways that we can create
opportunity. And I think in our churches, we
need to be really intentional and think about the ways we can
make room for women to speak, for, women to teach, for women
to do, and different roles in churches.
(49:30):
And that's something I encourageall of our churches where
they're led by women or men, that we actually don't get into
that situation where we think the pastor should be the only
one speaking on a Sunday. That we should make opportunity
for people to try things and give people permission, actually
to fly and do fantastically, butalso, you know, to fall over
(49:52):
and, and to, to fail on occasionas well because actually some of
our greatest lessons come from our failures.
Yeah. So.
So my encouragement to you is tothink about how you can create
opportunity. Can you go, you know, to your
pastor and say, actually, we've not heard a female speak this
(50:14):
year or preach, You know, actually could you invite a
woman to speak from our congregation or someone to come
from outside? And these things are important.
Interestingly, often people think, you know, churches are
balanced on they often to 2/3 women, 1 thirds men.
(50:36):
Have you noticed that in your inyour church, often the balance
tips actually when you have a woman leading the church, often
you get more men when women are leading the churches.
And apparently the data would look like that is to do with
leadership style, that actually women's leadership styles will
(50:57):
be more relational and less authoritative.
And that is appealing to some men, not all men, but some, some
men. Interestingly, in our, in the
church that I LED before I left to come into the position of
principle, it was just no longera thing in our congregation to
(51:19):
the point where actually we'd have guest speakers come up and
they'd, they'd say something like, oh, it's great to be here
in a church led by a woman. And like my congregation would
be like looking back, thinking what you're talking about.
It's like, because actually they've just gone past that
point. And so there's something, you
(51:43):
know, there's something about ascreating opportunities and just
normalizing the fact that women can preach, men can preach.
And actually we, we bring our gifts in different ways, don't
we? So I tend not to be a shouty
preacher, you know, and if I go somewhere like Church of God of
(52:04):
Prophecy, you know, I have, I speak to a group and people come
up to me afterwards and say, I was so nice not to have a shouty
preacher, you know, you know, but we're all different, aren't
we? You know, I, I, you know, I can
be really blessed by shouty preachers.
You know, we're all different. We've got to bring our gifts.
But you need an opportunity. You need somebody to open a
(52:26):
door. And that's what we must remember
with our younger children, again, men and women, that
actually we need to give them opportunities.
You know, why can't we enable them to preach?
Why can't we enable them to leadcommunion or do some aspect of
(52:48):
our service and just see what gifting rises in those moments?
Because if we don't provide opportunity, the risk is that
actually we're stifling. And I, I do wonder, you know,
just how the Holy Spirit feels about us stifling other people's
(53:09):
growth. You know, I think the Holy
Spirit wants us to fan into flames the gifts in the church.
And the Holy Spirit moves wherever the Holy Spirit wants
to move. So we need to be in tune and
working with the Spirit to call out the greatness in others and
(53:29):
to give people the opportunity to express that.
Now, I've touched on encouragement.
There's loads of data that showsthat actually those who feel
oppressed or a minority need more encouragement, OK.
(53:50):
And this on this issue for womenin ministry and for women going
into different leadership professions, there's a need to
encourage I that just the most amazing experience I had in
terms of encouragement was not encouragement that I received
was something I witnessed. So my husband and my son, their
(54:13):
hobby is racing remote control cars.
They're about this size. OK, My son erases worlds and
nationals and Europeans and things like this.
So this, but it's a bit like a mini Formula One.
If you imagine that, but insteadof being in the car, you're on
this high sort of stanchion and remote control, driving your car
(54:38):
around this track. And actually we were in a place
in Europe, I think it was Slovakia, at this place.
They call it the Hardy Arena. It's an amazing place.
It's like actually the carpet like here and you race on a
carpet track, Very, very seriousplace.
But if you go, it's mainly men and they're racing, wrecking and
(54:59):
rebuilding their cars all day. That's what they do.
And so you race it, the car sortof falls apart in some way.
You repair it and and then you get back on the track.
Very serious stuff. I'm on this.
I I go to this event, but like there's one woman knitting in
the corner of me. All right.
(55:20):
But there's a young, I think shewas probably something like 11
at the time. There's a young woman there and
she's racing a car, right? And so we it gets to the final
and so everyone's very excited. They're all in teams and things.
So everyone's around this arena watching this race and it's
(55:43):
getting more and more exciting. Now, I have to tell you, when
I'm watching this race, I don't know what it is, but I cannot
follow the cars and I have no clue who's where.
But all of a sudden, the men alongside got really excited.
And then my husband sort of whispers in my ear, she's out in
front. She's winning this European
(56:05):
race. Now, I have never experienced
something like this, but it reminds me of the Hebrew passage
about cheering on. Yeah, and what happens is her
team start to erupt, all of these grown up men shouting her
(56:26):
on and yelling that she's gonna win.
And then she crosses the finish line and you've never seen
anything like, it was like an explosion going off next to me
at this excitement that this young 11 year old female had won
this, this race. It's an adult race, you know.
(56:47):
And so that spoke to me because I'd love the church to be like
that. Yeah.
It's like I've not experienced the church like that.
All right? It's sort of like we were in
worship last night. We just came to that amazing,
incredible place, right? Where just the the sense of
God's presence, the exuberance and joy that we're experiencing
(57:13):
in the room, very high moment inpraise.
Yeah. But to me, that is where we
should be when it comes to shouting on and cheering on one
another to fulfill the plans of God.
But often we're not in that place.
So I often think of this race and think that's the sort of
encouraging church I want to be part of, where we're really
(57:37):
cheering on the least likely to win the race, you know, and
we're excited when someone otherthan us does really well.
And so we're enthusiastic. And rather than competing with
one another, we're collaboratingand saying, come on, you know,
you preach today because you're going to do a far better, better
(57:57):
job than me. You know, you step up, you
preach the word of God, the anointings with you today, that
sort of generosity. And so that's what excites me is
the fact that, you know, we all have that power.
We might not feel very powerful in and of our lives, but the
(58:18):
reality is we have the power to shout on others, to make space
for others giftings, to be the encourager that enables the
least likely person in the room to stand up and serve God in
just an incredible way, either in church or out in the secular.
You know, we need women and men who are out there doing secular
(58:42):
roles, but have the power of Godto speak truth into situations
to bring righteousness to prevail.
And we can do that. But I think we have to, we have
to accept our responsibility. And that is we are responsible
for calling out the next generation or even our own
(59:02):
generations. We are responsible for
encouraging and calling out and giving opportunities.
So I, I feel like probably we can, we can stop at that point
and perhaps if you want to ask some questions, we can spend,
oh, probably 5 minutes on some questions.
(59:26):
So anybody got a question you'd like to?
Wonderful. OK, can women be elders?
Yes, women can be elders. They can be deacons in our
churches. They can be assistants,
associates or senior pastors. And you can be on the national
(59:47):
leadership team as well. Yes, you can.
In an elim church. Yeah.
Any. What advice would you give to
any woman who feels like she's missed her opportunity or she's
too old or she's like, like the doors just slammed one too many
times? Yeah, I I would encourage
(01:00:09):
prayerful, a prayerful season orfasting or just some prayerful
reflection on is this the time to move forward into a call?
I'd encourage him to speak to somebody else, another woman or
a male pastor about those things.
(01:00:30):
If that male pastor has been setting limits, then maybe find
a woman, contact the Bible college, contact myself.
We'd be happy to speak to you about the different ways.
I would really encourage you. We, you know, we have, if people
are called to ministry, then actually we have a ministry
foundation program in Elim that's run through the Bible
(01:00:52):
college. You can inquire about that and
you can come and do training at the Bible college that is a
prerequisite for applying for Elin ministry.
But I, I think The thing is, is,is actually to go through a
period of discernment as like towhat the next step must be.
As I said to you, some like, youknow, there are moments where
(01:01:16):
the spades come back in my face on a number of fronts.
But I've gone, I've dug again and then seen the breakthrough.
And I think it is really hard. And it's helpful if you're part
of a group of women, if you can join a group of women who will
help you move forward in those things as well.
Does that help? Yeah.
(01:01:37):
Any anyone else? Yes.
Yeah. If you, if you contact, if you
contact me, I think my so my e-mail address is
michelle.nun@elim.org.uk. If you contact me, I'll I'll put
(01:02:01):
you in touch or organize for youto be part of one of our groups.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would encourage.
I know a couple of you are pastors wives and, and you know,
I think I would just encourage you to explore God.
What's, what's your call, you know, and if you feel called to
ministry, then speak to somebodyabout it, you know, and, and
(01:02:25):
get, get help in, in working outthat call.
But it's a discernment process, isn't it any, any final
question. Well, I'm going to pray.
All right, Father God, I thank you for every woman and man in
this room. I thank you for everyone at our
(01:02:48):
conference. And I pray that, look, God,
every one of us has a gift. And Father, we don't have to be
in church ministry to exercise those gifts.
You can call us anywhere in thisfabulous world of yours to serve
you and and to minister in your holy name.
(01:03:09):
But Father, I pray that none of us would hide our light.
But Father, each one of us, LordGod, would respond to your call.
And though it might be difficult, Lord God, that we
would trust that you would make a way for us.
So Father, I pray for a release of the women and men across our
movement to fulfill the calls that you've spoken into our
(01:03:35):
lives. And Father, may we diligently
serve you in a way that's worthyof the calling you've given us.
May we serve with humility, patience, kindness, and in
unity. Father, bless.
(01:04:00):
Bless your church and release everyone to fulfill their call
in Jesus name, Amen. Well thank you.
Have a great evening. Have a great evening.
Good afternoon. It's really good to see you here
this afternoon. How are you?
Good, good, good. Actually, before we get into the
presentation, it'd be really good to just understand what's
drawn you to the session. OK, So I would guess, you know,
I'm Michelle. I'm a principal of the Bible
(00:21):
College. I'm a member of ELIMS national
leadership team and I've done quite a lot of work over recent
years, particularly helping to raise and empower women in the
movement and back in, well, it seems like a long time ago, back
in 2017, I finished some research across the movement
(00:45):
looking at how we could empower and release women in ministry
specifically. And that was part of my master's
work. And we've used that as a
movement and the Women in Ministry review group have used
that research as we've sought toadvance women within the
(01:05):
movement. So I'll give you an opportunity
to ask some questions along the way, but I just wanted to know
as as a start, the presentation,as a start to speak, you know
what, what are the different situations?
What are there? What's going on for you that's
brought you here today? So any anyone want to respond so
(01:29):
we don't have an awkward silence?
Oh, where are we? OK, shout out for us.
Yeah, brilliant. Lovely.
(01:58):
OK, so just for those who couldn't hear what's a new
women's ministry being restartedand trying to think about what
they need to do, what Elim wouldencourage you to do in terms of
empowering women. That's that's right.
Yeah. Any anyone else?
Yeah. I'll pass you the mic and then
(02:20):
you can thank. You, I know for myself, there
have been times when I've been boxed in as a woman and I've
been boxed into like the administration role, even though
like I had gift Inns and teaching and prophecy.
And I don't want that to happen to other women.
I want to be able to be of assault for God to work through,
to release other women and empower other women.
(02:44):
Thank you anyone else. Thank you.
A pastor's wife. And I just feel like I don't
want to be pastor's wife. I want to be a woman.
Yeah. A woman.
(03:05):
Yes, a minister. A woman minister.
And well done. You give us.
I think when I see you, Michelle, I see, you know, it
gives me the. What's the word?
I feel like I'm inspired when I see you in ministry and in
leadership. So well done.
Even with your speech yesterday,it was amazing to see you there
(03:28):
with the men. Thank you.
I know I just stole it, but I'm at a pastor's wife, but I'm the
Apostolic 1 and I wasn't allowedin the room for a long time.
What do you do with that? OK.
(03:56):
Could we put the sound up a little for for those
particularly sitting towards theback?
That's good. Is is that tell me if it gets
better? Brilliant.
Brilliant. Is there anyone else who's got
something different to bring or?Yeah.
I'm actually part of a leadership team and we've not
(04:17):
had a pastor for the last three years.
So there's four of us, two womenand two men, who have shared the
preaching and become leaders almost by no choice of our own
for the last three years. Wonderful.
Wonderful. Well, it's, you know, sometimes
those spaces are good, aren't they?
(04:38):
Because it allows us to start toexercise gifts that we didn't
know that that we had. So yeah.
I've recently become a minister in my church, and my husband
isn't in ministry, and he's a leader in his own right, more
politics and media. So sometimes, you know, it feels
(04:58):
a bit like I'm on a bit of a journey on my own.
Yeah. Well, I can relate to that.
My husband, he has his vocation.It's not in church ministry.
He leads a family business and, you know, supported me all of my
ministry. But I can honestly say he
doesn't really want the platform.
(05:20):
He'd rather be in the sound, youknow, doing the sound desk or
something supportive. But so it can work.
It can work the different situations.
God calls us it from different situations.
Anyone. Anyone else?
(05:40):
I've just started, well, I say just started, it's been a few
years now overseeing our children and our young people
and families work. So I've got a real heart for
like the young women and young girls in our church as well as
their mums and and female influencers in their life.
So just how I can help support raise them up really as well.
That's. Great.
(06:03):
Wonderful. I'm getting some steps in.
This is good. I could do maybe 5000 today.
So we've got a number of young women in our church from the age
of 20 to 30, and they want to step out.
(06:24):
They want to grow in their leadership and their ministries.
And I want to know how to help them do that, to empower them to
do that and essentially, you know, be their mentor and put in
this space for them to grow. So that's why I'm here, hoping
to get a few Nuggets. Excellent, Excellent.
I mean, just to say that, you know, often we see a
(06:46):
breakthrough with men's attitudeto women in ministry.
That often comes when they have daughters and they see them.
Yeah. And, and they see, you know, the
potential in their daughters andthe daughters call.
And so we have many men in the movement who are very pro women
(07:08):
and very, very supportive of women.
I think that's going to get in my my way.
So, yeah, as I start today's presentation, then I'm going to
talk about how we raise women tolead and minister in our
communities, in our workplaces, in our churches and on the
mission field. I'm going to give some context
(07:31):
about Pentecostal history. Is that all right?
And talk about the experience ofwomen in Elim.
And then I'm going to talk abouthow we can recognize the call in
women's life and how we can cultivate gifting and encourage
one another to fulfill their call.
All right, so now I'm going to make sure that we have some time
(07:54):
that you can ask some questions as as well.
So let me click us on to some Pentecostal history.
So I, I don't know, we don't tend to look back that often,
but, but just briefly, I think it is really important to
(08:18):
understand our history a little bit and to understand the what's
happened in the Pentecostal movement and, and actually
understand that particularly forwomen, that actually where we
started isn't always where we'vebeen.
So if you were to go back to thebeginning of the Pentecostal
(08:38):
movement, you would have what I tend to refer to as an
egalitarian impulse, OK, That there was this sort of impulse
within the movement that sort ofsaid the Spirit could use
anybody and the Spirit was free to use anybody.
And that would happen in the early days of the Pentecostal
(09:01):
movement. Overtime, things change.
And we'll look at that in relation to Elim in a minute.
But what you see is that the Pentecostal movement has
Pentecostal waves. Are you familiar with that?
We might talk about the third wave or but if we go back to the
beginning, the early 1900s, although this spirit was moving
(09:22):
before then the there's the first Pentecostal wave and we
think of movements that were established sort of that go back
to the Azusa period. But we have to recognize that
stuff was going on elsewhere. So in India there was a revival
(09:42):
and in other nations as well. And we would think of the Welsh
revival as well. That's very much part of our
heritage in Elim. So we're what you call a
classical Pentecostal movement, OK, because our roots go back
that far. But then you'll see if you look
at the second wave, we're talking around the 60s time and
(10:05):
actually there's a move of the Spirit that starts to impact the
Catholic Church and the Anglicans.
And that's known as sort of the charismatic renewal.
And you'll know movements like new wine that have come out of
that renewal. If we go on 1975 onwards, then
(10:26):
we're looking at it's sort of what we call the Neo
charismatics and there are new churches being birthed as part
of the charismatic move. And often you'll find there are
some subtle differences about the reception of the Holy
Spirit. So we would believe that the
Holy Spirit baptism is somethingseparate, it's something
(10:48):
subsequent to our conversion andthat we would believe it's a
moment of empowering for missionand ministry.
So, but not all of the second wave, 3rd wave would believe
that. Some would be believing that
actually the Spirit. And we do believe that the
Spirit, we do receive an infilling, if you like, of the
(11:08):
Spirit AD conversion. But we believe in this second
powerful experience of baptism that really empowers us for
ministry, maybe the release of the gift of tongues, certainly a
sort of increase in our ability to love people and our sense of
(11:29):
gifting as well. So any questions on that before
I move on? It just gives us a bit of
context or yeah, we're OK. So if we just think about Elim
on that far side, that's the beginning of things in Elim.
So we go back to 1915 and we've got George Jeffries and the
(11:52):
evangelistic band. As we move forward, we've got
women at that time. So it's particularly mistreat
who's part of the band. And there are others, but the
even then there was situations where the women were excluded
from some of the council meetings.
OK. But there were situations also
(12:16):
where it's been noted that womenwere left out and then were able
to prophecy what happened at themeeting.
And then the men felt, oh, we better include them anyway.
So I just think there, you see, the Holy Spirit is in work.
All of this. Yeah.
The Holy Spirit. So The thing is for us as women
is, you know, we do need, we do need to take our faith seriously
(12:42):
as women and men. Yeah, we need to actually, you
know, as Pentecostals, we need to seek the baptism and the
empowerment of the Spirit. And we need to listen to the
call of God. You know, I wouldn't be here if
I wasn't called. I wouldn't have made it.
I wouldn't have, I wouldn't havebeen sustained in ministry.
(13:03):
But if you're called, you'll be equipped.
You'll be empowered. You'll be sustained, you know
so, but I encourage you as womenof God to really dig deep with
God and to be listening to the Holy Spirit, to allow the Holy
Spirit to guide your ministry and not to just get caught up
(13:24):
in, in what I would want, but actually be in the flow of the
Spirit. Because if you're not called to
ministry, then you're called to something else.
And the most exciting place to be is in the will of God, right?
So we want to be where the Spirit has called us to.
And what we had in these early days was amazing women who were
(13:47):
counter cultural in there, there, you know, breaking three,
if you like, some of the conventions of the time and
evangelist well-being evangelistic and and actually
birth that being there at the beginning of the birth of the
movement is quite widely accepted in Pentecostal circles,
(14:09):
particularly in Europe, that often it was women that would
move into areas and, and do the business of planting churches.
And often what would happen is those women would grow the
church to a certain size where they were ready for a pastor.
And then a man would come in andpastor the church.
And those women would either stay and continue to build or
(14:32):
they would move on and, and church plant again.
So, so we have women right at the beginning of the movement,
very, very active, as you'll know, in other movements around
the world. You know, women, very, very
prominent, Amy Semple McPherson,others, very prominent women
that the Holy Spirit was using. But we have, and I won't spend
(14:53):
too much time on this, we get toabout the 30s and there seems to
be this question of ordination. And it's decided at that point
in the 30s that women shouldn't be ordained.
And there's various things that happen over time.
They are initially allowed to bein the Bible college, but again,
(15:16):
something happens around the four to early 40s where women
are excluded from the Bible college for a season and that
changes, reverts back after a while as well.
There are funny things that happen like in the early
magazines and periodicals, initially the women's names are
(15:37):
listed alongside the men, but then there are various where
actually the women's names get taken out and admitted.
Perhaps as the movements growing, it's harder to detail
those things, but at various points it keeps coming back up.
This issue of should we ordain women?
(15:57):
So in the end of the 30s, thirty, 73942 and 48, there are
debates on those, on those things and over time the women
get referenced in different ways.
There's a time when the women are referenced as the sisters
and then that terminology changes to the ladies and so on.
(16:19):
There are various things that happen through history, but a
couple of things perhaps to, to point out is that that, you
know, this isn't happening in isolation in the elim context.
There are things going on in thewider context that are
influencing. So our relationship with the
(16:41):
evangelical churches and sort ofthe, the compromise, perhaps
some would argue that happened as, as we were seen as sort of
outside of the mainstream, as wedecide to be a bit more
mainstream and a bit more acceptable.
There were some compromises thatwent on.
And, and so there's some links to, if you like, the National
(17:05):
Association of Evangelicals and their acceptance of Pentecostals
that starts to keep women out ofthe picture in terms of ministry
or define women's roles, perhapsin a more complementarian way.
That would certainly be the way we'd frame it today.
So if you like, there's an adoption of evangelical
(17:30):
approaches within the Pentecostal movement that starts
to impact the roles of women within the movement.
There's also this language of sort of a prophetic priestly
divide. So it's like, well, yeah, women
can do the pastoral work. They can do the praying, they
can bring the prophecy in the church.
(17:52):
But actually when it comes to governing the church and having
in a say in how the church is organised, then actually the
women are excluded. So there's some of that language
and some of those things start to play a part and we have to
remember our eschatology. So how we understand the end
(18:13):
times. You know, actually if you think
about people thought that that Jesus was coming very soon, you
know, that was built into our Foursquare gospel.
You know, Jesus is our savior, our healer, our baptizer and the
soon coming king. So when you read back the
letters that the women wrote in response to some of these votes,
(18:36):
you know, some of the women would write, well, yeah, you
know, this is my rationale. And there's quite a clear
rationale as to, you know, you read the Bible this way.
It's absolutely fine. There are examples of women in
Apostolic roles in the Bible. That'd be women sort of giving
the teaching, if you like, in their letters in support of
(18:57):
their argument, but then sort ofsaying, well, if you men won't
give us this role, the Holy Spirit's just going to use us
anyway. And we have letters in our
archives that sort of say that from some of these amazing
women. And there were amazing women.
There were more women on the mission field than there were
(19:18):
men. And I'm just trying to think in
2017, I looked back at the data and that's been a consistent
pattern in Elim's history and elsewhere.
Because the mission field was a place of freedom.
There was some autonomy for women and and women did
incredible things and not only in our movement but but
(19:39):
elsewhere as well. So another timeline then I'll
put up in front of you just shows more recent history.
You can see there, there's the terminology.
Lady workers. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd want to
be called a lady worker, but butovertime language changes
(20:04):
because some of some of the guysare really arguing and saying
actually we need to give our women.
A place they're doing a significant work.
And you'll know that people often say today, you know, what
would happen on Sunday if the women didn't turn up?
Yeah, I was recently in the Church of Pentecost in Ghana.
(20:25):
They have women deaconesses and various other roles, but the
women don't minister. And we were talking about that
there. You know, actually what would
happen if the women didn't turn up, would church on Sunday, you
know, And so there were people recognizing within our movement
that the women were doing significant things, you know,
(20:45):
and the Spirit was moving freelyamongst women.
But there there's an argument that what started to happen is
that actually women just startedto marry.
So what you did was you married someone who was a pastor and
that sort of gave you a role within a church to minister
alongside them in different ways.
(21:06):
And there's a great book out about that analyzing the history
of of how marriage became the root of women's ordination.
I think it's Beth Allison Barr, I think the books by.
But I can always find that out for you.
So we as a movement, various things go, go on.
(21:28):
In 1999, our first women were formally ordained.
And actually you saw Marilyn last night on the stage.
Yeah, she's in that list of of the women who were ordained on
that occasion. Yes, that's, that's true.
(21:50):
Yeah, that's it. So the point being made that
they were single women because married women were being
disadvantaged at that time. Yeah.
So all of these sort of subtleties of things going on
very, very difficult for those for those involved.
We we've had some shifts in recent years.
In 2016, I got invited on our arbitration board and that was a
(22:17):
vote. Actually, I'd gone forward for
vote a few years before and I'd missed it by a couple of votes.
And anyway, they asked me, wouldI go again?
I'm think, well, yeah, I, I see.I grew up in Kent and the soils
clay in Kent. So it's like I always say, the
first whack of the spade comes back in your face.
(22:39):
And I think like, if you're going to pioneer something, you
know, if you're going to take a course to others haven't taken
before, then you have to expect a little bit of opposition,
don't you? And be a resilient to that and
just be willing to go again if you feel the spirit is leading
you in that direction. So, and that was quite a big
(23:02):
thing. The men actually were brilliant
and gracious and very quickly and caught hold of the fact that
actually they shouldn't just have one woman on the
arbitration, but actually the next time it came up for vote,
we should vote on another woman.And that's what happened.
And I think there's three women on the arbitration board today.
I had to step off later on. It was two, 2022, when I was
(23:28):
appointed as the first female onthe national leadership team.
Interestingly, Maud Win and Allison Atkinson had fought for
that, contended for that at our conferences because the wording
in our constitution had meant that only men could be in those
roles and that those battles were done 10 years earlier to
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make it possible. So it still took ten years after
that. More recently, we've had a group
that has looked at women's experience in Elim, and I'll
talk about that in a little while, and we still have little
things to deal with. So maternity pay for ministers,
(24:15):
office holders, all of that's a little complicated because of
the tax rules. But recently we had a
breakthrough where our minister actually was able to receive
maternity pay formally through the the normal routes of
receiving that rather than something ministered by the
(24:36):
church. Oops, let's go back.
So these are the wonderful womenthat were ordained in 1999.
So some some women still ministering today who have made
incredible difference in our in our movement.
(24:56):
So I don't think we've got any in the room today.
So anyone I don't think I'll just check.
I don't think so, no. So let's just talk about women's
experience. As I mentioned before, we set up
a group called the Women in Ministry Review Group.
(25:17):
Myself and Neil Hudson were asked to Co chair that group
together, which was really good.And the idea was, was we took
stock of where we were at in themovement.
I hadn't been appointed as to the NLT at that point.
And we looked at women's experience in the movement and
(25:40):
some of that was looking back atpast master's research and
things that people have written.But also we went out and
interviewed our women ministers and we did confidential
interviews with a subsection of the women ministers to get their
experience. And actually, as it came back,
(26:02):
it was quite shocking because people had had some difficult
experiences in ministry. So what we decided we needed to
do was to lead an act of acknowledgement and make a
declaration as a movement that the things that our women had
(26:22):
experienced weren't right. And we will make a declaration
that we were going to do better basically.
So I was now three years ago, wewere given the opportunity to
speak to our ministers conference.
So that's going on now. There's the business session
with ministers and lay reps fromour churches.
(26:44):
And we spoke to that session andvery much like it is now, it was
a full room. And we we shared, and I'll share
this with you sort of word for word, I think.
So a key part of the work we said to them of the group that
we've been leading was to listento a number of women ministers
(27:06):
and record their experiences. The women spoke of their
gratitude to Elim in recognizingtheir ministry and their
commitment to continue serving the Lord within our church
family, Elim. And then we went on.
However, it's a good word, isn'tit?
(27:28):
However, they spoke of times they felt marginalized by fellow
ministers and local church leadership teams.
They spoke of times their voiless voices had been silenced
by those they sought to serve. They spoke of times they had
been bullied, treated unjustly or touched inappropriately.
(27:52):
They shared on that occasion on that on occasion they had not
been paid the same salary as their fellow male ministers in
the same church, at the same stage of ministry for doing the
same work. They shared the pension
provision had not been made for them.
They shared that they'd been refused interviews for church
(28:15):
positions simply because they were women.
They shared that they'd been told explicitly that they would
not be given the same opportunities to minister that
men in ministry had been given. They explained that there were
times when they had felt weary, disillusioned and disappointed
(28:35):
and at times deserted by the actions of their fellow
ministers. So a very sobering, sobering
moment in our history. And then we made a declaration.
We asked those who felt able to in the room to stand up.
And this was a very, very movingmoment for us and for many of
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the women in the room. It was a moment where of where
the Spirit did something in the heart because there was a naming
of things that had gone on and and most people had experienced
something challenging in their life in ministry.
So we this was our act of acknowledgement.
(29:20):
Today we acknowledge these stories of our colleagues.
Today we want to say this was men and women speaking this
together. Today, we want to say that we've
heard your testimonies. Today we want to say that we're
truly sorry for the many times your ministries have been
diminished. Today, we want to apologize
(29:40):
wholeheartedly that these thingshappen to you while we were in
ministry alongside you. Today we want to stand with you
and commit to work alongside youso that others will not have to
experience the same things that you have lived through.
(30:02):
And that was the declaration that was made back in 2022 at
this at this conference. So I would say to you that lots
has improved. I would say to you that the
experience of women, there are alot more opportunities for women
(30:23):
now. About 20% of our ministers are
women, excitingly, and it is exciting, 37% of our ministers
in training are women right now.And this is really so important
because, because really for any group to make a significant
(30:48):
difference within a body such asours, you look to bring the
percentage of participation nearer to 1/3.
And so I hope by the time I retire that we will have gone
over that third. I've worked it out and I fully
expect us all things remaining constant to do that.
(31:08):
But right now we're at 20%. And of course, what that means
is that actually there is just asmall number of women leading
churches. And I think that's really
important that that actually, you know, it's, it's about women
being free to fulfill the plans of the Holy Spirit.
(31:31):
I knew when I came into ministrythat I was called to lead a
church. And actually, I, I don't think I
was the best assistant pastor because I had already been
leading out in the community. I'd LED a sizable team.
My team were responsible for delivering healthcare to 3
million people. I, I, I, just, you, you could
(31:54):
tell when you spoke to me that the, you know, the call was to
lead a lead a church. I think this is really
important, that we listen to theSpirit and we know what our call
is and we find our place within the body because we'll be most
effective wherever the Holy Spirit has called us to.
(32:16):
Very sad, I think is, you know, there are women I know who felt
called to ministry. And we're told you're over 50,
you know, or your child's disabled, you've got disabled
children. So no, There are many people
with stories of where the door was shut.
For me, it's like if the Holy Spirit has called us.
(32:38):
Yeah, then we follow the Holy Spirit.
And that was my attitude in early ministry.
I didn't really even think aboutbeing female.
It's just like the Lord spoken to me, the Holy Spirit's called
me, I'm just going to do whatever the Holy Spirit's
called me to do. And that I think helped me
because I, I just was very, veryfocused in in that regard.
(33:04):
So how are we doing for time? OK, we're doing all right.
We've got 25 minutes left. So let's let's just think about
some of the things then that that are important for us as we
move forward. And as women and men of God, I
think one of the things we really need to be conscious of
(33:28):
is that we need to call out sometimes the calling of God.
You know, when I was receiving my call to ministry, I heard God
in a number of ways. I can remember being in the big
top at mine head in those days for the Elim Leaders Conference.
(33:49):
John Glass was speaking. He was speaking on the four
faces in Ezekiel. I've got all the notes from that
meet him written down. And then he started to say,
there are people here who are called to ministry.
And he started just firing out these names.
And I can remember looking up and saying, God's, where?
(34:10):
Where's my name? And I honestly, my name came
next. All right, now that was the
first part of my call. Then I, I went back into church
life and I'm listening to God, waiting for somebody to speak to
me and waiting for the Holy Spirit to give some more
(34:33):
direction. I'm in my back garden a year or
two later when I'm at Bible college and I, you know, I'm
thinking when I'm at Bible college that I'm going back into
some sort of charity or power church organization to lead, and
then I'm in my back garden. I could go and stand on the
spot. Now is that I can remember so
(34:55):
clearly where it was and I felt the Lord say the church isn't my
church till women take their place.
And you know, I bit naive really, because you know what
it's like when you get a call like that.
It's very like, it's very narrow, isn't it, as you receive
it. But over the years it broadens.
(35:15):
So when I received that, I thought, yeah, that's an
affirmation for me. And there was some other things
that happened. Some doors opened for me to do
MIT, to work with the national director of training.
At the same time, there were some doors that opened for me,
which was great. But now I see those words you
(35:36):
see differently. See, now I received it at the
time. That was a call to me to to
pursue ministry. And of course, some others
around me started speaking into my life.
You know, Michelle, perhaps she should do Bible college or she
perhaps she should do this or when I was in Bible college or I
think you're called to ministry,you know, but now I see those
(35:59):
words. The church isn't my church till
women take their place as the asa massive as a massive thing.
You know, there's an invitation from God for women to step into
the 'cause that have been spokeninto their lives.
And so my intention right now isto just help as many women who
(36:22):
are in that position as possible.
And, and God hasn't. God done an amazing thing
because he's moved me into the Bible college.
So that's a good place. That's a good place to be
involved in those things. But I also, every other Monday
night I'm on a Zoom call with women from across different
(36:42):
ministries, some according to the Pharmaceutical industry.
There's one woman there who is around the directors table on
one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies that
there is. She has to live overseas because
she can, because of her role. And Kate Coleman Sham, cool man.
(37:04):
Some of our women here at this conference are all on those
calls and in those groups. And we are supporting each other
as women and actually calling out the greatness in one another
because actually there is something about it's very easy
to shrink yourself to fit your context.
Anyone done that? Yeah, I did it on ministerial
(37:25):
selection board. So I think it was 2016, I got
invited to be the first woman onour ministerial selection board.
Great. So sitting in the GSS office on
the armchairs, meeting people for one hour to decide whether
they had a future in ministry ornot.
The only female there, mainly men coming through the door,
(37:47):
holding very different perspective in terms of how I
was seeing the people who were coming through the door.
But in those situations, you canshrink to fit, right?
You can say, well, actually I'm not sure I quite belong here.
And if I actually say what I think, I might get chucked out
of the room. Yeah.
(38:09):
So you sort of modify and manageyourself and, and they're the
sorts of things we do as women that we need to stop doing.
So my friend Kate Coleman's written a very wonderful book on
this. If you, if you want to read it,
7 Sins of Women, 7 Deadly Sins of Women in Leadership, right.
(38:31):
I recommend that you read that book or join one of our groups
and where we'd be doing that online.
But there are all sorts of things that we do as women that
sort of diminish us and shrink us because we feel uncomfortable
with the things that the Spirit is calling us into.
Do we relate to them? So one of the things that we
(38:54):
have to do is speak to each other and say, stop that, you
know, you're awesome. Yeah.
Actually, yeah. Speak up.
Speak out, you know, actually don't accept whatever limitation
has been put on you. I can see that call in you.
(39:17):
Yeah. And once we start doing that,
it's releasing, its permissioning and we start to
grow in God. So I would encourage you that
whether it's someone mentioned the daughters, it's like
actually speak. When you see somebody do
something, speak that to them, go back to them and say, you
(39:43):
know, that was fantastic, that was brilliant.
You need to do more of that. You know, you need to speak and
encourage because I'm sure you can think of situations you've
been in where actually you've done something that that
actually moved you out of your comfort zone.
But. But actually no one necessarily
(40:05):
afterwards sort of noticed it orreferenced it.
And then you went back and thought, I must have been bad at
that. Yeah, anyone happens to me all
the time, you know, But you know, actually when.
When we're doing that, often we're misreading.
(40:25):
You know, often people will think that we're really
confident and don't necessarily need that affirmation, you know,
but actually really important for us to start naming the gifts
and naming the greatness in bothmen and women.
All right, Our boys really need our encouragement right now.
Gosh, that's another subject I could talk on.
(40:47):
But you know, both our men and our women, let's speak.
If somebody does something great, let's go tell them and
let's call out the greatness. If we get a glimpse and think,
oh, actually, you know, you should be doing this.
We feel the whisper of the Holy Spirit for somebody.
Let's go and encourage them in that.
(41:09):
Let's start calling out the greatness.
And I think we were better in the past at this as a movement,
you know, of I can remember and then regional leaders going
round churches and and they would be speaking to people and
say, actually, I think you should come to Bible college.
I think maybe we do less of thatnow and we need to just
(41:30):
determined that actually we've got a part to play in everybody
being the fullest expression of Jesus Christ that they can be
here on earth and actually beingopen to the least likely being
called. Right, You know, the least
(41:50):
likely being called because that's what Jesus was.
He, you know, he was the least likely to those in Nazareth,
wasn't he? He's like, well, how could this
Joseph Sun be doing all this? Yeah.
And then actually, we know with the disciples, Jesus didn't pick
necessarily the people that everybody else thought should be
(42:12):
leading the early church. So I want to encourage you be
calling out, be calling out one another, be calling out the
women in your churches and the men too, and be really
intentional in that. How can I help someone?
(42:35):
So I'll give you an example for me in, in our church in
Nantwich, when I was there leading, we had a young woman
who was came to us about 13. I'd come from another town.
Her family had a, you know, a healing evangelist in their
lineage. And she was just alive and on
(42:56):
fire with the Holy Spirit. And so we got a preaching young,
you know, in her teens and she was amazing.
She was just awesome. She was so full of energy.
I'd call her Tigger. But so she, she came, you know,
in 16, when she was 16, she cameand did work experience with me.
At the time I was leading the church and I was a chaplain as
(43:19):
well as at our local hospital. And she came and she shadowed me
in that. She did her A levels and then
she decided to go on the missionfield and we supported her.
In fact, I went off to Spain with my Bible and I read my
whole Bible in one week, chronologically raised money
through the church to send her to the Philippines.
(43:40):
All right, so we send her to thefiller.
It did me a lot of good reading my whole Bible in a week, I can
promise you. So we send her off to the
Philippines. She comes back after eight
months, wants to go to Bible college, goes to regions.
Wonderful. She comes out of regions, sits
in my office one day and she says, Michelle, I think I'm
(44:02):
going to be a primary school teacher.
And I'm like, well, that's great.
You know, my husband was teaching at the time.
It's like, that's that's great. Yeah, Actually, I'd like you to
go and pray about that some more.
Come back in a week and we'll we'll chat because as I'm
chatting to her, I know that theSpirit's called Ash to to lead a
(44:27):
church. All right, So I know that as I'm
sitting there with her, but so Isend her out.
Go pray, you know, she comes back.
She says I know Michelle, She says.
She says I know what you're thinking.
You know, she says, I'm called to ministry, aren't I?
(44:49):
I'm like, Phew, that was easy. So actually what it did was it's
like, actually you're called to ministry.
I'm going to create a role here for you because I know she could
go through ministering training.And at that point, which is
nearly 10 years ago, I know thatit would have been hard for her
(45:09):
to find a place as a ministeringtraining in another church.
So we made a position and actually she went to ministerial
selection board, She came through with flying colours and
she started as an assistant minister in the church.
She is now leading the church that I left.
Yeah, that's now I tell you thatbecause that's a testament to
(45:37):
what's happened in Elim. The difference, the fact that a
woman, she's 29, coming back from maternity leave for her
first child could take on an Elim church.
That's progress. That's progress.
So she's one of that small number of people under 29 who is
(45:59):
ministering in Elim and she's leading a good sized church with
some very big ministries. And but actually that takes an
intentionality, doesn't it, of calling out an individual and
actually looking at how we can intentionally make something
(46:20):
possible. And she is just an awesome woman
of God and another woman on teamwho?
There we go. Who?
Actually another person called Rachel.
I raise Rachel's. Are there any Rachel's in the
room? Well, there are a few.
(46:40):
This is the place to be. But Rachel actually in Hebrew
means shepherd, doesn't it? Yeah.
So. So the other Rachel came as
someone who didn't know Christ to our church.
And when she first came, actually a member of the
(47:01):
congregation brought her becauseshe couldn't even lift her eyes
to speak with me. Her friend had to speak with
her, such was the trauma that she was in.
Now she's spoken about this veryopenly, but after a couple of
years, she came to Christ and our community did something
beautiful. Churches do amazing things and
(47:23):
they, you know, it's like the family that we lack the church
provides. And, and there was an amazing
healing in her life and she ended up working on team and,
and again going on the mission field.
She was in my office talking about feeling cold.
(47:44):
And then again, I've like, I've got a very clear picture from
the Holy Spirit of where she's called to.
And I'm thinking, well, I don't want to tell her that because I
want her to discover it for herself through the Holy Spirit
and may be able to affirm that, right.
So, so actually that's what happened.
(48:04):
And she went off onto the mission field.
Then she came back. There was a job in church for
her. And then she studied at regions
context learning. And then at the end of that,
we're like, actually, we think you're, you're cold, you know,
collective decision. Our leaders, we create a
(48:25):
ministry role for her. And today actually, she's
leading another church in our inHanley in near Stoke on Trent.
So actually we just, we need to be calling people out, but we
need to be providing the opportunity as well.
And the the fact of the matter is we need to really help our
(48:47):
women find those open doors and opportunities at the leading of
the Holy Spirit. Now, what I've talked about
there, I couldn't do for everybody in church.
So I had to be very clear that it's the Holy Spirit.
But really important that we don't just get stuck of
thinking, oh, I could never, youknow, we just can't make that
(49:09):
role in our church or we can't do that.
But actually we think about the ways that we can create
opportunity. And I think in our churches, we
need to be really intentional and think about the ways we can
make room for women to speak, for, women to teach, for women
to do, and different roles in churches.
(49:30):
And that's something I encourageall of our churches where
they're led by women or men, that we actually don't get into
that situation where we think the pastor should be the only
one speaking on a Sunday. That we should make opportunity
for people to try things and give people permission, actually
to fly and do fantastically, butalso, you know, to fall over
(49:52):
and, and to, to fail on occasionas well because actually some of
our greatest lessons come from our failures.
Yeah. So.
So my encouragement to you is tothink about how you can create
opportunity. Can you go, you know, to your
pastor and say, actually, we've not heard a female speak this
(50:14):
year or preach, You know, actually could you invite a
woman to speak from our congregation or someone to come
from outside? And these things are important.
Interestingly, often people think, you know, churches are
balanced on they often to 2/3 women, 1 thirds men.
(50:36):
Have you noticed that in your inyour church, often the balance
tips actually when you have a woman leading the church, often
you get more men when women are leading the churches.
And apparently the data would look like that is to do with
leadership style, that actually women's leadership styles will
(50:57):
be more relational and less authoritative.
And that is appealing to some men, not all men, but some, some
men. Interestingly, in our, in the
church that I LED before I left to come into the position of
principle, it was just no longera thing in our congregation to
(51:19):
the point where actually we'd have guest speakers come up and
they'd, they'd say something like, oh, it's great to be here
in a church led by a woman. And like my congregation would
be like looking back, thinking what you're talking about.
It's like, because actually they've just gone past that
point. And so there's something, you
(51:43):
know, there's something about ascreating opportunities and just
normalizing the fact that women can preach, men can preach.
And actually we, we bring our gifts in different ways, don't
we? So I tend not to be a shouty
preacher, you know, and if I go somewhere like Church of God of
(52:04):
Prophecy, you know, I have, I speak to a group and people come
up to me afterwards and say, I was so nice not to have a shouty
preacher, you know, you know, but we're all different, aren't
we? You know, I, I, you know, I can
be really blessed by shouty preachers.
You know, we're all different. We've got to bring our gifts.
But you need an opportunity. You need somebody to open a
(52:26):
door. And that's what we must remember
with our younger children, again, men and women, that
actually we need to give them opportunities.
You know, why can't we enable them to preach?
Why can't we enable them to leadcommunion or do some aspect of
(52:48):
our service and just see what gifting rises in those moments?
Because if we don't provide opportunity, the risk is that
actually we're stifling. And I, I do wonder, you know,
just how the Holy Spirit feels about us stifling other people's
(53:09):
growth. You know, I think the Holy
Spirit wants us to fan into flames the gifts in the church.
And the Holy Spirit moves wherever the Holy Spirit wants
to move. So we need to be in tune and
working with the Spirit to call out the greatness in others and
(53:29):
to give people the opportunity to express that.
Now, I've touched on encouragement.
There's loads of data that showsthat actually those who feel
oppressed or a minority need more encouragement, OK.
(53:50):
And this on this issue for womenin ministry and for women going
into different leadership professions, there's a need to
encourage I that just the most amazing experience I had in
terms of encouragement was not encouragement that I received
was something I witnessed. So my husband and my son, their
(54:13):
hobby is racing remote control cars.
They're about this size. OK, My son erases worlds and
nationals and Europeans and things like this.
So this, but it's a bit like a mini Formula One.
If you imagine that, but insteadof being in the car, you're on
this high sort of stanchion and remote control, driving your car
(54:38):
around this track. And actually we were in a place
in Europe, I think it was Slovakia, at this place.
They call it the Hardy Arena. It's an amazing place.
It's like actually the carpet like here and you race on a
carpet track, Very, very seriousplace.
But if you go, it's mainly men and they're racing, wrecking and
(54:59):
rebuilding their cars all day. That's what they do.
And so you race it, the car sortof falls apart in some way.
You repair it and and then you get back on the track.
Very serious stuff. I'm on this.
I I go to this event, but like there's one woman knitting in
the corner of me. All right.
(55:20):
But there's a young, I think shewas probably something like 11
at the time. There's a young woman there and
she's racing a car, right? And so we it gets to the final
and so everyone's very excited. They're all in teams and things.
So everyone's around this arena watching this race and it's
(55:43):
getting more and more exciting. Now, I have to tell you, when
I'm watching this race, I don't know what it is, but I cannot
follow the cars and I have no clue who's where.
But all of a sudden, the men alongside got really excited.
And then my husband sort of whispers in my ear, she's out in
front. She's winning this European
(56:05):
race. Now, I have never experienced
something like this, but it reminds me of the Hebrew passage
about cheering on. Yeah, and what happens is her
team start to erupt, all of these grown up men shouting her
(56:26):
on and yelling that she's gonna win.
And then she crosses the finish line and you've never seen
anything like, it was like an explosion going off next to me
at this excitement that this young 11 year old female had won
this, this race. It's an adult race, you know.
(56:47):
And so that spoke to me because I'd love the church to be like
that. Yeah.
It's like I've not experienced the church like that.
All right? It's sort of like we were in
worship last night. We just came to that amazing,
incredible place, right? Where just the the sense of
God's presence, the exuberance and joy that we're experiencing
(57:13):
in the room, very high moment inpraise.
Yeah. But to me, that is where we
should be when it comes to shouting on and cheering on one
another to fulfill the plans of God.
But often we're not in that place.
So I often think of this race and think that's the sort of
encouraging church I want to be part of, where we're really
(57:37):
cheering on the least likely to win the race, you know, and
we're excited when someone otherthan us does really well.
And so we're enthusiastic. And rather than competing with
one another, we're collaboratingand saying, come on, you know,
you preach today because you're going to do a far better, better
(57:57):
job than me. You know, you step up, you
preach the word of God, the anointings with you today, that
sort of generosity. And so that's what excites me is
the fact that, you know, we all have that power.
We might not feel very powerful in and of our lives, but the
(58:18):
reality is we have the power to shout on others, to make space
for others giftings, to be the encourager that enables the
least likely person in the room to stand up and serve God in
just an incredible way, either in church or out in the secular.
You know, we need women and men who are out there doing secular
(58:42):
roles, but have the power of Godto speak truth into situations
to bring righteousness to prevail.
And we can do that. But I think we have to, we have
to accept our responsibility. And that is we are responsible
for calling out the next generation or even our own
(59:02):
generations. We are responsible for
encouraging and calling out and giving opportunities.
So I, I feel like probably we can, we can stop at that point
and perhaps if you want to ask some questions, we can spend,
oh, probably 5 minutes on some questions.
(59:26):
So anybody got a question you'd like to?
Wonderful. OK, can women be elders?
Yes, women can be elders. They can be deacons in our
churches. They can be assistants,
associates or senior pastors. And you can be on the national
(59:47):
leadership team as well. Yes, you can.
In an elim church. Yeah.
Any. What advice would you give to
any woman who feels like she's missed her opportunity or she's
too old or she's like, like the doors just slammed one too many
times? Yeah, I I would encourage
(01:00:09):
prayerful, a prayerful season orfasting or just some prayerful
reflection on is this the time to move forward into a call?
I'd encourage him to speak to somebody else, another woman or
a male pastor about those things.
(01:00:30):
If that male pastor has been setting limits, then maybe find
a woman, contact the Bible college, contact myself.
We'd be happy to speak to you about the different ways.
I would really encourage you. We, you know, we have, if people
are called to ministry, then actually we have a ministry
foundation program in Elim that's run through the Bible
(01:00:52):
college. You can inquire about that and
you can come and do training at the Bible college that is a
prerequisite for applying for Elin ministry.
But I, I think The thing is, is,is actually to go through a
period of discernment as like towhat the next step must be.
As I said to you, some like, youknow, there are moments where
(01:01:16):
the spades come back in my face on a number of fronts.
But I've gone, I've dug again and then seen the breakthrough.
And I think it is really hard. And it's helpful if you're part
of a group of women, if you can join a group of women who will
help you move forward in those things as well.
Does that help? Yeah.
(01:01:37):
Any anyone else? Yes.
Yeah. If you, if you contact, if you
contact me, I think my so my e-mail address is
michelle.nun@elim.org.uk. If you contact me, I'll I'll put
(01:02:01):
you in touch or organize for youto be part of one of our groups.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would encourage.
I know a couple of you are pastors wives and, and you know,
I think I would just encourage you to explore God.
What's, what's your call, you know, and if you feel called to
ministry, then speak to somebodyabout it, you know, and, and
(01:02:25):
get, get help in, in working outthat call.
But it's a discernment process, isn't it any, any final
question. Well, I'm going to pray.
All right, Father God, I thank you for every woman and man in
this room. I thank you for everyone at our
(01:02:48):
conference. And I pray that, look, God,
every one of us has a gift. And Father, we don't have to be
in church ministry to exercise those gifts.
You can call us anywhere in thisfabulous world of yours to serve
you and and to minister in your holy name.
(01:03:09):
But Father, I pray that none of us would hide our light.
But Father, each one of us, LordGod, would respond to your call.
And though it might be difficult, Lord God, that we
would trust that you would make a way for us.
So Father, I pray for a release of the women and men across our
movement to fulfill the calls that you've spoken into our
(01:03:35):
lives. And Father, may we diligently
serve you in a way that's worthyof the calling you've given us.
May we serve with humility, patience, kindness, and in
unity. Father, bless.
(01:04:00):
Bless your church and release everyone to fulfill their call
in Jesus name, Amen. Well thank you.
Have a great evening. Have a great evening.
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