Leadership Track 1: The safe and secure leader. Malcolm Duncan and Stuart Blount

Who are we leading for? How do we lead with confidence and wisdom? How can we offer clear vision and direction whilst respecting and honouring those we work alongside?  

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Wonderful. Well, the today's session is the
safe and secure leader and we are so fortunate today to have
two incredible speakers with us.First of all, we have got Stroop
Loud, who many of you will know,but for those, oh, wonderful,
yes, oh wonderful, he's our director, Director of
ministries, isn't it? I mean, it's such a small title

(00:21):
for all that that must encompass, but I'm sure that
means that there's so much that goes on.
But in fact, I know there's so much that shoot will do behind
the scenes. But in short, his pastor of
pastors looks after all of our ministers in training from
orientation to ordination and then even beyond that.
And, you know, personal pastor to my family as well.
And also, as he mentioned yesterday for you in the

(00:43):
session, he's also part of a local church, it's Central
Church in Birmingham. Is that the full names?
Life Central? That's the one.
There's so many of our churches with all different names, isn't
there? But we're so fortunate to just
kind of take from his wisdom today.
And then also the incredible Malcolm Duncan, which is great.
It's great to have him with us, who is Elam's chair of ethics

(01:05):
and public theology, which is brilliant.
But also I read here that you are also the theologian in
resident of Spring Harvest and Essential Christian.
Don't fully know what that is, but it sounds very, very
accomplished and helpful. But what I really love about
Malcolm Duncan is that he's not just an advisor for
organizations, but he is also just an encourager and an

(01:27):
advisor for the individual walking alongside and people,
which is amazing. You've always been so accessible
to people. So we really love that about
you. And I'm really excited to hear
about what you guys are going toshare today.
But if that wasn't all, you're also the lead pastor at
Dundonald Elam as well, aren't you?
And writer of many books, which I have seen that are down in our
bookshop. So I'm just going to pray for

(01:48):
these guys and then they're justgoing to hand over and go ahead.
Thank you for this so much for all that you have done this week
at this conference. And I just thank you, God, that
you're not finished yet and we've still got more to go.
And I just ask that everybody that is in this room today, God,
you would just let our hearts beopen and ready to receive just a

(02:09):
bit more. And Lord, give us ears to hear,
eyes to see all that we can fromthis session.
I pray for your anointing on Stewart and Malcolm in these
moments and that we will just have just a sense of your
presence as we take notes and welean in.
In Jesus name everybody said Amen.
Thank you so much, Becky. Good morning everybody.

(02:31):
And the title that Stuart and I are going to speak into this
morning is the Safe and the Secure Leader.
And we want to ask questions like who are we leading for and
how do we lead with confidence and wisdom?
And how can we offer clear vision and direction whilst
respond respecting and honouringthose we work alongside.

(02:53):
I'm going to try and address thefirst two questions and Stuart
is going to address the last one.
Who do we lead for? Let me ask you a question.
What holds your gaze? Because whatever holds your gaze
will hold your heart. Many things want your attention,

(03:13):
but only one thing should hold your gaze.
And if you're uncertain about what holds your attention, then
let me suggest that you take a look at a number of things.
Just to help you begin the process.
Take a look at your diary and where you're spending your time.
Take a look at your wallet and where you're spending your

(03:33):
money. Take a look at your Internet
history and what you have been spending most time looking at in
the last month. Take a look at your emails and
your text messages over the lastmonth and reflect on the
conversations that you've had with your best and your closest
friends, and that will give you a sense of what holds your gaze.

(03:59):
Who we are when no one else is looking, when the lights are out
and we are on our own, is who wereally are, Marcus Aurelius, the
famous Roman Caesar, said most of us, most of what we say and
do is not essential. Ask yourself at every moment, is

(04:21):
this necessary? I wonder how many of us would be
impacted by diary changes and commitment changes if we
genuinely looked at our days andsaid is this necessary or is
there someone else that could dothis and I don't need to?

(04:41):
Churchill, of course, the famouswar Prime Minister said you will
never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at
every dog that barks. And it is so true for us that so
often in leadership, so many things bark at us and we can get
drawn into them if we are not careful.

(05:02):
We know, I think, that Christ should be the center of the safe
and secure leader. And when you hear passages like
the ones that I'm about to read,you know them and they speak
into your heart. Luke 1038 to 42, that powerful
picture of Mary and Martha, as they said, at the feet of Jesus.
Mary, take Mary taking the placeof a rabbi in training.

(05:26):
Now as they went on their way, he entered a certain village
where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home.
She had a sister named Mary who sat at the Lord's feet and
listened to what he was saying. But Martha was distracted by
many tasks, so she came to him and asked, Lord, do you not care

(05:47):
that my sister has left me to doall the work by myself?
Tell her then to help me. But the Lord answered her.
There's this double call that Chris spoke about on Tuesday
night. Martha, Martha, you are
distracted and troubled by many things.
Only one thing is important, andMary has chosen it.

(06:12):
And it will not be taken from her.
The sense of focus in that encounter is amazing.
And Hebrews 12 and verses 1:00 and 2:00 and 3:00 and 12:00, we
are reminded that we are to keepour focus on Jesus, the author
and the perfecter of our faith, that we are not to get drawn
into everything else. And as we keep our focus,

(06:37):
Hebrews tells us that our drooping hands will be
strengthened and our weak knees will be strengthened as we focus
in on Christ and what he's calling us to do.
And of course, you know Paul's verses or words to the
Philippians recorded in Philippians 312 to 14 very well.
He says everything else falls behind this one thing.

(06:59):
This one thing I do this one thing I'm focused on.
And actually here, it's not his ministry.
It's not his accolades. This is the high calling of
being a follower of Christ. That is Paul's one thing.
His one thing is not his apostleship.
His one thing is never his leadership.
His one thing is pursuing Christand who Christ is to him and

(07:22):
what Christ is making him to become.
And when he exhibits the focusesin his own ministry in one
Corinthians two, he says to them, I determined to know
nothing amongst you except JesusChrist and him crucified.
There's a focus here which is really powerful.
There's a little phrase, a little word that's used in Luke
Chapter 9 about Jesus, which I think is really, really

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powerful. And it's the word in Greek
storitzo. And it means to establish or to
be focused or to be intentional or to be deliberate or to be
clear minded or to be unwavering.
It's very hard to translate in English.
When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face

(08:09):
to go to Jerusalem. And there are times in our
ministries where we must set ourface to what God has asked us to
do and stay focused on it and not get distracted by the many
other valuable things that we are being asked to do.
Jesus only did what His Father asked Him to do, and He only

(08:29):
said what His Father asked Him to say.
And He was obedient to the Father's will and purpose.
And He says it again and again in John 519, in John 1249 and
John 1431. He is clear, but we all know
this to be true. It's not rocket science.
At the heart of Jesus ministry we can see this laser like

(08:52):
focus. The spiritual director, I love
his name by the way, Thomas Shuffle Botham, it is not
shuffle bottom, although you maywant to pronounce his name like
that. The spiritual director, Thomas
Shuffle Botham suggests that this flows from three key
elements of Jesus's ethos. His laser like ministry flows

(09:12):
from these three things that he helps people think through #1 he
is determined to walk in authenticity.
What he is on the inside is whathe is on the outside.
Number two, he walks in faith. His external circumstances are

(09:32):
not the primary director or determiner of his ministry focus
and his life. And #3 he walks with clear and
consistent compassion. What would your ministry and
mine, what would your leadershipand mine look like if we walked
in authenticity and faith and incompassion?

(09:57):
None of which are about position, all of which are about
heart. I wonder if we see this focus in
Jesus because of the way in which he understands himself.
Does He somehow allow His heart to flow out into the world

(10:17):
around him in a way that can help us to determine what our
heart posture will be toward ourselves and toward our
ministries? In John 224, an often neglected
verse, we're told that Jesus didnot trust His heart to all
people because He knew what was in the hearts of all people.
He had a wisdom about who He was.

(10:38):
He wasn't inauthentic, but He was has a wisdom about what He
needed to say and what he didn'tneed to say.
I wonder how many of you on the way out of conference this year,
when you've heard a speaker, have heard another minister
saying something like this. What did you like?
Every year we come with a team and we have devotions every

(10:59):
morning and devotions every night.
And we set our hearts to be intentional.
We set our hearts to listen for what is good, to eat the meat
and throw out the bones, and we set our hearts not to be
scorecarding the meetings, not to be scorecarding the
preachers, not to be the lens atthe back thing.
Seven, because we like some of the things that they've said and

(11:22):
we disregard some of the others.Can I suggest that sometimes we
can do that in our own leadership, And it's about
sometimes having the wisdom to focus on the things that are
good and allow yourself not to get distracted into the things
that are bad. Jesus knew his own heart and He
knew other people's heart. Secondly, He knew He was in
Matthew 317 and 17, five like bookends in His ministry.

(11:46):
At the moment of His baptism andat the moment of His
transfiguration, we hear this powerful phrase.
This is my beloved. And Christ knew who He was.
He was the beloved of the Father.
His whole ministry flows out of that.
If you read John 24 and John 13,the beginning of the washing of

(12:10):
the disciples feet and the introduction to the farewell
discourse, it goes something like this.
John 13 is amazing. Jesus knowing that his time had
fully come and knowing that all things had been entrusted to him
by his Father. And then goes on to say, knowing
who he was after supper, got up from the table, put a towel

(12:30):
around his waist and began to wash the feet of His disciples.
He had a deep sense of his identity and his calling and his
purpose, and it sat at the center of his leadership and his
ministry. Fourthly, he puts his mission
before his rights. We live in a litigious culture

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and a culture that's demanding rights all the time.
Many ministers are doing the same thing.
Consider these words from Philippians chapter 2 that our
heart should be the same as thatof Christ Jesus.
Listen carefully. Who, being in equal nature with
God, did not consider equality with God something to be

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demanded, but humbled himself and made himself nothing kenosis
and poured out himself to death,even death on a cross.
Jesus is the ultimate safe and secure leader, and we see that
He knows his heart, He knows whohe is, He knows His purpose, and

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He puts mission always before his rights.
What impact would that have on your leadership and mine?
But if he's if he is to hold ourgaze, then he must first hold
our hearts. Does he hold our hearts?

(14:03):
Matthew 621 right in the middle of the Sermon on the Mount.
Jesus says for where your treasure is, there your heart
will be also. There's so many things that try
to take our hearts. Let me give you just a few
distraction. You are not.

(14:24):
Called to be an Omni competent generalist.
You don't have to be good at everything.
In fact, it's really good that you're not good at everything
because God has designed team sothat we can let each other
flourish and sometimes distraction is evidence that

(14:44):
we're trying to do too much. We're trying to do everything.
We can get distracted by our phones.
We can get distracted by conversations.
I have a friend that recently went away to a conference and on
the Friday night he and his mates were talking and it was a
Christian conference. He's a Christian leader.
And he said I have a moment of panic.
He said Malcolm had a moment of panic.

(15:05):
I said, what happened? He said I I realized I'd
forgotten my phone and I wasn't going to have it all weekend.
And he said, you know what my friend said to me?
And I said what he said. Would you feel that way about
forgetting your Bible distraction?
Mary Barra says it's OK to admitwhat you don't know.

(15:28):
It's OK to ask for help, and it's more than OK to listen to
the people you lead. In fact, it's essential.
Secondly, we can be our gears can be pulled off Christ by
deception. We take our value from the wrong
things. We take our value from what
people say about us. We take our value from the
applause. But the applause can change very

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quickly, right? We allow ourselves to think
because everybody says we did a good job, we're really
important, and if they tell us we do a bad job, we're really
unimportant. That's a deception.
Taking your value from what everybody says about your
ministry is a really bad place to allow your identity to flow
out of. Thirdly, we get diluted because

(16:13):
we're trying to do too much. We end up doing nothing well.
We're running after ourselves. We're chasing our tails.
Our distraction and our dilutionand our deception is causing us
to forget that Jesus must have our heart.
Fourthly, if we're not a careful, we believe the lie that

(16:33):
we are indispensable. One day in 10 or 15 or 20 or 30
or 40 years, there will be otherbright young things sitting in
rooms like this listening to other middle-aged men and women
like me, and they will be sayingwe're the ones that are going to
change the world. There was a generation before us

(16:55):
that did the same, and we are the generation that do it now.
And we have a bat song that we hold we saw transferred last
night. Never build your ministry around
yourself. Never build yourself into a
place of indispensability. Always look for the person that
could go further than you and higher than you and achieve more

(17:16):
than you and celebrate them if it all goes wrong.
If you're the lead pastor, take the blame.
If it all goes well, give everybody else the glory and
learn not to believe the deception that this depends on
you and it's all about you. The delusion fifthly, being

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driven. I wonder how many of us have
lost the biblical idea of Sabbath and rest and rhythm and
we rest out of exhaustion when God rests out of satisfaction.
Sabbath is not about simply exhaustion.
God did not get to the evening of day six and say, I'm whacked.

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This has taken it out of me. I can't take another step.
He got the day six and he restedand he said this is very good.
I rarely need a pastor who restsout of satisfaction.
I've rarely met a church leader who is satisfied with what God
is doing in their lives, particularly in Pentecostalism.

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Because we are so crisis driven.We need another encounter and
another encounter and another encounter and another encounter,
when actually to be satisfied with what God is doing in US is
remarkable. Dissatisfaction is the last.
The sense of being driven and always unhappy, always more to
do. So how do we lead?

(18:40):
With confidence and wisdom, Withintentionality and posture would
be my answer. I once took a pastor's funeral
in the north of England whilst living in the South of England.
I'd never met him but he'd followed my ministry online and
his solicitor sent me a request and I said yes, I'd be honoured.
And he sent me all the pack details and said this is where
the funeral is, this is what time it's at and this is what he

(19:02):
wants. These are the people that he
wants thanked, these are the songs that he's going to have
sung. If you can just come the morning
of the funeral that will be great.
He doesn't have any family, but we are expecting a lot of other
people, but they'll not be therefor you to greet.
And I said OK. I was the only person that
attended his funeral, 40 years of ministry and there was nobody

(19:27):
there. Our intentionality and our
posture is so important. Pour your life into the people
that God has given you to love, but make sure that your posture
is one of humility and gentleness and mercy.
Joanna Kayla, the author and educator, says leadership is not

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a person or a position. It is a complex moral
relationship between people based on trust, obligation,
commitment, emotion, and a shared vision of the common
good. I encourage you to think about
how you can lead for this one sentence.
Well done. Good and faithful servant, I

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find the Methodist Covenant prayer particularly helpful.
Maybe you've never prayed it. I prayed every year.
I am no longer my own, but yours.
Put me to what you will rank me with whom you will put me to
doing. Put me to suffering.
Let me be employed for you or laid aside for you, exalted for
you, or brought low for you. Let me be full.

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Let me be empty, let me have allthings, Let me have nothing,
freely and wholeheartedly yield all things.
I yield all things to your pleasure and disposal.
And now, glorious and blessed Godfather, Son, and Holy Spirit,
you are mine and I am yours. So be it.
And the covenant now made on earth, let it be ratified in

(21:00):
heaven. Our intentionality is about
letting the mind of Christ become our mind, just as I said
about Jesus. Know who has your heart and who
does not. Know who you are and who you are
not. Know your time and know your
purpose. Know when to stay and know when
to go. Put God's Kingdom and God's

(21:22):
mission before your own rights. Let that be the intention of
your heart and let your posture be this.
Remember that you are never the groom.
You are always part of the bride.
You're not married to the church.
Christ is betrothed to the church and we are always part of

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the bride. Without Him we can do nothing,
but without Him we have nothing.So I encourage you, as I draw my
section of our time together this morning to a close, to let
devotion have priority over duty.
Know the difference between yourassignment and your title

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because posture matters more than position.
There are only two positions in the Christian life, and they
never change. You are a son and daughter of
the living God, and you are seated with the God at the right
hand of the Father. Everything else is transitional.
Know the difference between yourassignment and your position,
and let others have honor beforeyou, including those with whom

(22:32):
you minister. Instead of comparing your worst
to their best, you their best. And instead of comparing their
best to your worst, No wrong wayround.
Instead of comparing their worstto your best, compare your worst
to their best. It changes the way you talk

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about people, Stephanie Coutillier says.
I've always subscribed to the belief that the best leader is
not one who has the most followers, but the one who
creates the most leaders. I strive every day and in every
programme and offering that we have at Integris Women to create
more conscious, confident and soulful leaders who in return

(23:14):
will build a better world for all.
And here's how I work this out in my life.
I have 3 vows that sit at the very centre of who I am.
Honestly, I think about them every single day.
It can get complicated, this leadership thing.
Here are the three promises thatshape everything I am and
everything I do. Promise number one, on the day I

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was baptized, I was asked, do you love Jesus?
And I said yes. And I was asked, will you serve
him for the rest of your life? And I said yes.
Promise number two was the promise that I made to my wife
the day I married her, and by extension to her, my children.
I want her to know I loved her to the end, that I love my
children to the end and my grandchildren, they're more

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important. Promise #3.
The day I became an Ealing pastor, I made a promise to
serve God through this movement,to go where He asked me to go
and to serve where He asked me to serve.
Every day of my life. I say, God, can you help me to
fulfill these three vows? I believe that that makes you a

(24:19):
safe and a secure leader for others and for yourself.
And everything else. That we might think we should do
is window dressing. Thank you.
Thank you, Malcolm. Good to see you all today.

(24:39):
I hope you really found that stimulating as Malcolm shared
with you. So as Malcolm explained, we're
focusing in and you can see it in your programme on those kind
of questions. And I want to spend some time
thinking about how can we offer clear vision and direction
whilst respecting and honouring those we work alongside.

(25:01):
It's interesting that Malcolm should share with us there his,
his three vows. I think we all probably have
those maxims, those things that define our understanding of who
we are and what it is God wants us to.
And this, this is this is one ofmine as I just skipped past a
few things there that Malcolm didn't quite cover.
I think that leadership ultimately is people first,

(25:23):
vision 2nd. That's something that.
Has shaped my own understanding of leadership, my growth and
development as a leader. People first, vision second.
I'm passionate believer in the concept of shepherd leadership
and those words are positioned in a two word phrase

(25:44):
specifically shepherd leadership.
Maybe you have verses of Scripture that have shaped your
life, and there are many that I have.
I find when I'm preaching, I often fall into the sake of
saying, and this is this is probably my favorite verse of
Scripture. And then I'm preaching something
else the next week, say this is my favorite verse of Scripture.

(26:05):
And I realise I've got so many favorite verses of Scripture.
So if you ever hear me preach regularly, you'll hear that I've
got lots of favorite verses Scripture.
So this is my favorite verse of Scripture.
But now as a leader, this is something that has shaped a lot
of my journey as a leader. And it's comes out of Psalm 78,
where God has been talking abouthow he leads his people.

(26:31):
And he's talking about his intentionality in calling David
to be ultimately the most significant leader in the
nation, but somebody who became the most loved natural king of
the nation of Israel. And today in Hebraic settings,

(26:51):
in Jewish settings, David is still held in such high regard.
And of him, the psalmist says that he chose David his servant,
and took him from the sheep pens, from tending the sheep,
and bought him to be the shepherd of his people, Jacob of
Israel, his inheritance. And this is the phrase.

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And David shepherded them with integrity of heart, with
skillful hands. He led them.
It is possible to love people and be visionary.
It is possible to be a strategicleader and love people.

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And unfortunately, my personal view in the journey that the
Western church, the Pentecostal charismatic Western church has
been on for maybe 30 to 40 yearsis that leadership has
superseded loving people. And I'm sorry to say that sadly,

(27:55):
we see the effects of that in the Christian and the church
culture today. I am not a perfect leader.
You're looking at one of Elim's most fallible leaders this
morning. There you are.
I've said it, but the reality isthat leadership doesn't exist
without people. Leadership.

(28:16):
Doesn't exist without people. A book I've been reading at the
moment for a little project I'm on talks about and I can't
remember the exact quote, but a shepherd often often can end up
just being a hygienically challenged man on the hillside
quite alone. And the.
Reality is that if you don't have any, as we've heard many,

(28:36):
if you don't have anybody following you, you're not a
leader. But God.
Wants to introduce Himself to usin the great prophecies of the
Old Testament as a shepherd leader.
In Isaiah 40 verses 10:50 it says this.
See, the sovereign Lord comes with power, and he rules with a

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mighty arm. See, His reward is with him, and
his recompense accompanies him. He tends his flock like a
shepherd. He gathers the lambs in his arms
and carries them close to His heart.
He gently leads those that have young This is God.
The Supreme. Leader of everything that exists

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who identifies himself as a shepherd, not just here in
Ezekiel and in many cases through the messianic Psalms and
the prophets. And so for me, I think what we
need to learn, come back to thatbecause realized I didn't have a
slide on this, is that being strategic is about what

(29:42):
leadership is about, but being pastoral is knowing who
leadership is about. You can have all the great
ideas, all the great vision in the world, but friends, if you
can't lead people, they just stay as ideas.
Some of the greatest. Skills you can try to develop as
a leader are people skills. No, people understand people.

(30:08):
If you weren't with us over the last couple of days for the
sessions, we have the first session that we had on Tuesday
just after lunch, where Dave Newton and Nicole Lagupello were
with us. And Nicole, who works for
Leaders, an organization that she did this brilliant section
on, on understanding how different we are.

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You know, the disk thing, the red, the blue, the, the yellow,
the green. And she did some of those
things, some of those psychometric testing things, and
they have a value in at least teaching us that not everybody
is the same. And if I've learned anything as
a leader, it's that the way I speak to one person, the way I
lead one person, is not replicating the way I can lead

(30:48):
somebody else. I have three children, and
they're all very different. They carry some similarities,
but they're all very different. Larry Osborne says that Jesus
radically changed the shepherding paradigm.
Jesus didn't say that good shepherds care, feed, lead and
protect their sheep. He said they lay down their life

(31:13):
for their sheep. This was Jesus's model of
leadership. John Maxwell says one of the
biggest mistakes leaders make isspending too much time in their
offices and not enough time out among the people.
Leaders are often agenda driven,task focused and action oriented
because they'd like to get things done.

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They hole up in their offices, rush to meetings and ignore
everyone they pass in the halls along the way.
What a mistake. First and foremost, leadership
is a people business. And if in.
Your aspiration to be a leader in the Christian Church.
The opportunity for a position, a bigger office, a bigger

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platform is what stimulates you.I can tell you after 37 years,
you're going to be disappointed.But if the.
Opportunity to influence people,love people, develop people.
Then you will be. Satisfied.
God taught me recently, it's notthe positions we hold, but the

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people we influence that definesour life as a leader.
I came across a phrase reading abook recently called Leadership
Next by Eddie Gibbs. It's not a particularly new book
and I was doing some research and it's a phrase he uses and
it's this phrase Communities of choice.
And I found. It a fascinating concept and

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phrase and I think it's criticalin our understanding as leaders
of how we lead people toward a place we want to go.
And we've used the shepherd metaphor, but we know those of
us in leadership, whether as a local church pastor, an elder or
Deacon, that leadership is abouthaving a preferred future,
having a sense of vision. Without vision, the people

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perish. Vision is good, knowing we want
to get somewhere, but the how ofhow we take the people with us
is really, really important because that journey that we go
on with people is critical. And in this concept of
communities of choice, he creates a comparison in his book
between a business that employs people under an employment

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contract, regular PDRS, expectations, goals, and you can
sit down with people and you canmeasure performance and salary
increases, etcetera, etcetera isbased on performance.
But he says that the Christian community is a community of
choice. And what he says is this, that
leadership is about connecting, not controlling.

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It's about bringing people together for the purpose of
creative synergy. He says that leaders of the
emerging church recognise they need to operate in a team
context. He's saying probably 2.
Things number one, you will onlytake people as far as they want
to go. That's a 21st century thing,

(34:11):
friends. The days when people just say
you're the leader, I'll follow. You are gone.
You lead people where you inspire them to follow you to.
Communities of choice are placeswhere people choose whether they
go with you or not. And some of us.
As pastors and leaders wonder why we're struggling, but people

(34:32):
have made a choice, They don't tell us about their choice.
We see their choice. They're not following.
And there's a reason they're notfollowing, because the Christian
community cannot drive people onthe basis that a business can.
You, our employee here, you willbe here at 8:30 in the Monday.
If not, you'll have a warning. If you keep not doing that,

(34:56):
you'll have a written warning. That is not a community of
choice. That's an occupation, that's a
career, that's a job. And if we try to lead in
churches? In that.
Way in this generation, you're going to fail.
We have to find a fresh way of leading that involves that.

(35:16):
He goes on to say that in communities of choice,
leadership qualities take on an even greater significance.
Individuals, if they are to stayand continue to be involved,
must own the organization sharedvision.
The fact they are volunteers means if they choose to stay,
they are more likely to participate.

(35:39):
The connective style of leadership creates links between
people. I think that you can.
No longer expect increased participation from people in the
vision and direction of the church simply by making
increased demands. You will be disappointed.
And I see that I travel around many about most weekends.

(36:02):
Amanda and I are around an Elim church somewhere in the country
of all kinds of sizes and stylesof elim church, and the ones
that I find have a deep sense ofparticipation are often the ones
where the leader themselves has a deep sense of connection with
the people they're leading. In fact, in today's church, I
would suggest to you that increased demands is a recipe

(36:25):
for disaster. We live in a.
As, as, as Malcolm said, the liturgist is that you said that
word, 'cause you're more intelligent than me.
You've got one more degree than I've got a liturgist, whatever
society, but what I understand we live in a complaints society.
I could tell you in my role, I have never seen more complaints

(36:45):
come to us at Elim InternationalCentre than the last few years.
I don't know what's happened since COVID.
Maybe COVID was part of it, but the amount of complaints that
come across my desk, regional leaders and for us in national
leadership is exponential. People are expressing their

(37:06):
dissatisfaction with the style of leadership that sometimes
they're experiencing. It might be a disproportionate
expression, it might be an unfair expression, it might be
an untrue expression. But the freedom to express it is
existing because they realise they're in communities of choice
now and. So there must.

(37:27):
Be some better ways to lead. And I want to suggest you that
people typically follow leadership under a number of
circumstances. Number one, they love.
They follow the issue when they love the community they're part
of. When they believe.
In the shared vision or 'cause? When they feel.
Valued, seen, heard and understood.

(37:53):
When their involvement adds to their life and does not detract
from their life, and when they can connect their involvement
with spiritual growth. Phil.
Pringle. In his book You, the Leader
spoke at our conference a numberof years ago now, but says
followers must feel they are people, not just numbers,

(38:13):
statistics or resources. And so.
Just going to give you a few headline bits of practical
advice. And Malcolm and I wanted our
session to be one where we couldbe a little bit more
interactive, and so you could probably pose some questions
back. So here's a bit of practical
advice about how you can connectwith those you're leading in the

(38:34):
sense of vision #1 slow down. To connect.
With people, you need to travel at their speed, not your speed.
You can move faster alone, but you'll move further together.
And so very. Often as leaders, and I've been
guilty of this in the past, for sure, is my mind and my heart

(38:56):
are 100 yards ahead of where people are capable of being at
the moment. And as a leader.
It's understanding the pace at which I lead, the pace at which
I walk. I, I, I have 3 grown up children
and my eldest son is about 3 or 4 inches taller than me, but I
think his legs are 6 feet longerthan mine.
And when we're out as a family, I just cannot keep up with him.

(39:19):
We were with them recently and he and I were out.
It's like, son, I'm older than you.
Did you figure this out? And he just, he just, it's his
natural pace. We all have a natural pace.
Anybody else find your natural pace is slowing?
My natural pace involves regularrests at Costa or Starbucks or
Nero's. My pace of life.

(39:44):
But as leaders. We need to understand the pace
is not always set by us because if we want to take people with
us, we have to deal with the frustration of learning to walk
at the pace that they can follow.
And sometimes. When the enthusiasm grows, you
can pick up the pace. The second thing I want to.

(40:04):
Suggest to you is care more. It's not Rocket.
Science care more. Lance Witt in his brilliant book
High Impact Teams said when you have leadership without love, a
wake of hurt and dysfunction, follow Jesus, you said in John

(40:25):
13 showed them the full extent of his love.
And he did not. Only just do what a servant did.
He did what the. Least of all servants would do
and took off his outer clothing and washed his disciples feet.
This is love. Not that we love God, but that

(40:48):
He love doesn't gave his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our
sin. For God so loved the world that
he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him
should not perish, but have Everlast knife.
This is how God. Demonstrates his love for us.
It's not Rocket. Science folks love more and you
will actually find more followers if you love more.

(41:11):
I believe in today's day and agemore than ever.
The third. Thing.
I suggest is to pay attention, and particularly pay attention
to what's between the lines. What do I mean by that?
Well, your intuition may tell you that there is something
wrong in a relationship. You're a seasoned enough leader
to say something's changed. You've ever experienced that

(41:32):
something's changed here. They used to smile as they
passed me. You're we used to pause and talk
or we seem to get on better. Something's changed.
It's your responsibility as the leader to take the initiative in
the relationship. That's what being a leader is
all about. That's what being a shepherd is
about. It's not a case of, well, if

(41:52):
they've got a problem, they can sort it out.
Those problems don't get sorted out in my view.
Take the initiative. But sometimes it's not what
people say to us that's the greatest tip off of a problem.
It's what they don't say. People can, will be quick to
bring us good news, but they maybe avoiding bringing us bad
news. Why?

(42:14):
Why do they not feel? Comfortable in sharing something
with us that's uncomfortable. It's a sign that there's
something in the relationship, in the context, in your group of
leaders, that may not be wrong 4.
Three. I would suggest to you that we
develop strengths, find what your team or your volunteers are

(42:35):
good at and help them grow more.But.
Alongside that, it's important that we accept weaknesses.
You need people and you need them because of your weaknesses.
You know the old. Adage together, TEIM team

(42:55):
together, everybody can achieve more.
And so the reality of team is that not one, any one of us has
it all together. None of us are the complete
picture of a team for any environment.
And you're all part of teams. And in one sense.
It's recognising that we are together because of our own
weaknesses and we can't be good at everything.

(43:18):
Just to conclude and then maybe we can just see if you guys want
to feedback in any way or I knowwe're quite spread out, but I'm
sure we can make sure questions get heard.
There's a book at the moment that every now and again, those
of my Ealing ministerial peers and colleagues in the room know
that there's now and again, somebody starts reading a book
and word starts to rotate aroundand we're all reading the book.

(43:40):
And this book at the moment, a church called Tov that's been
written by a female and a male author, both of them who
experienced painful and dysfunctional environments as
leaders in church life. And one of the authors, Scott
McKnight, in one of his sections, says this A church is
not a business, it isn't producing a product, and it

(44:02):
doesn't gauge success on measurables.
A church is a local community ofbelievers who are striving to be
like Christ, both as a congregation and as individuals.
Its leadership is peculiar because churches don't function
based on hierarchies and reporting relationships.
They function based on the interdependence of gifted

(44:25):
individuals working together to honor, worship, and serve God
under the exclusive headship of Jesus Christ and empowered and
inspired by the Holy Spirit. Now, there's a deep
ecclesiastical kind of view thenas the ecclesiology inherent
within that, about our concept of church and the headship of

(44:46):
Christ. And that's an important concept
because you are not the head of the church.
It's not your church. It wasn't my church, the church
I LED, it never was. He's the Good Shepherd, I'm the
under shepherd. It's not mine, it's not yours.
It's not your possession and attitude and mindset actually

(45:07):
inflate our sense of our ecclesiology in these matters
and how we understand church andthe concept of church.
And you may not think you have aparticularly defined
ecclesiology, but you do. You all have an ecclesiology.
You all have a way of seeing thechurch and understanding the
church. And as leaders, you lead out of
your inherent ecclesiology, yourconcept and understanding of the

(45:28):
church. And that has been impacted for
many of us by things we've read and by influences of people
we've followed. The people we follow on Twitter
or whatever it's called now on Instagram, they affected the
quotes you put up that hit you. I can assess, let's use that
word, many people's ecclesiologyby following them on Instagram.

(45:50):
What matters there's? Only one ecclesiology that
matters, Jesus is head of his Church.
And it was he who. Gave some to be apostles,
prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers that we might
perfect God's people for the work of the ministry.
Paul says in another. Part of Ephesians that the body
of Christ may be built up. So I want to encourage.

(46:11):
You that in your concept, in your understanding of what it is
to lead with vision and direction, people first, vision
second. Thank you.
My our. Fit, young, wonderful, glorious.

(46:33):
Becky Nichols has got a microphone there.
She could hand it to a fit youngbrother as younger than her next
to her to help. I don't know.
Jason's down there. Thank you for listening.
You've listened to so much theselast few days, Malcolm, and I'm
very grateful that you've you'reeven here, which is wonderful.
But I wonder if anybody had anything you wanted to comment
or ask. We, we, we were going to stick

(46:56):
to time rigidly. We would not go past 12:30.
If anybody lesser Becky's running, just pose a question
and we will certainly do our best to help in any way.
Hey. Hi there.
Thank you so much. For is it Andrew it?
Is wow. You've got good eyesight.
Yeah, it's Andrew from Exeter. You use the.

(47:20):
Phrase a exponential increase incomplaint and firstly, so
appreciate all both of you do across the church nationally to
help with that. And it must have been an
incredible, you know, few years as we've all seen that across
the body of Christ. The word exponential implies
that it's continuing and increasing.

(47:42):
I'd love to hear from both of you as you peer around the
corner into what's coming because what we're seeing now is
challenging for anyone in national or local leadership.
But where does that go next? What is the reset from a
leadership level, from a congregational expectation
level, from a societal level? I'd love to just hear your your
thoughts on the next few years. I'll give a brief.

(48:04):
Comment on my concept, an idiom and Malcolm has in in many ways
often a broader field because he's he he really spans a lot of
connections that he has. Andrew, I stand stand by the
statement. You won't question it
exponential because it's my experience.
I think it's society's experience though as well.
So I think there's there's something that's sociological
within that about how society's behaving in one sense.

(48:28):
I think in a church context, I think people are more acutely
aware of what dissatisfies them,but more confident in saying
that where are we going? I think that the problem is you
either choose to try to address complaints or you try to deal
with culture. And I think our.
Focus needs to be on what we canbuild as positive as a response

(48:49):
to that, in the hope that the healthier we can get as leaders,
the better our response can be, the more defendable, if you
like, if that's what we're saying it, our stance becomes.
So from my part in the role thatI've play and certainly sitting
with the national leadership team, these sessions have been
really all about healthy leadership.

(49:10):
We're very much committed both at an individual level in our
lives as individual leaders to be healthy people.
And much of what Malcolm was sharing was aimed at that.
But actually having the courage to to face up to the honest
difficult questions where we're not doing it right, where we've
got it wrong. I think it, I think going

(49:31):
forward, we've got to be courageenough to be able to say we've
got it wrong, we're sorry and we're showing that we're doing
something about it. And I think when you do that, I
would suggest that a majority ofwell meaning complaints are
responded to. You can never really legislate
or control vexatious complaints in that sense.

(49:52):
But I think from our heart, the focus has to be on the culture
we build, what we do, the honesty, transparency,
integrity. And integrity can be painful
sometimes and costly, but that'swhat leadership is all about.
Maybe Malcolm would say something.
I I. Think that culture eats vision
for breakfast and I think that we are coming into a season

(50:18):
where I would describe what has been happening not just within
the Elam but within the church and actually as you will know,
within wider society, a very rights driven society leads.
To. The context where people are
demanding more and expecting more, that's the negative.
On the flip side of that, I think what the Church has been

(50:39):
experiencing across the UK have been involved in situations here
in the UK and North America and Europe and some of the countries
in Africa above the Sahara and in Asia.
I think there has been a yearning for authenticity.
And actually some of the complaints, some of the things
that we've had to deal with has been an unsealing of a faulty

(51:01):
system and churches and leaders have been exposed when their
systems and structures have beenunhealthy.
I think that's gonna dissipate to some degree both in culture
and in churches. We're seeing a greater cry for
accountability, for authenticity, for connectivity,
for honesty, for vulnerability. However, whilst.

(51:21):
That settles down a bit. It'll only settle down for a
generation or two. And then we will make the same
mistakes again because we are sinners in need of a merciful
and gracious God. But what I think the church is
emerging into, I hope at its best, Andrew is a place where
leadership is more connected, ismore authentic, is more

(51:41):
communal, is more honest, and ismore vulnerable.
I don't want to return to a church.
Where? Leadership is detached and where
accountability is reduced, so there are negative things about
rights. But there are also some.
Positive things about obligations and duties and
responsibilities to one another.That I think our Holy Spirit

(52:02):
inspired. And I would suggest that one of
the things that God did through COVID.
He did a number of things and that we've talked about.
This a little bit is I genuinelythink he has dismantled the idea
that the pastor is not that important in the leadership
plans of God. I think he has brought to the

(52:22):
top of the list again the fact that we need churches led by
shepherds who are compassionate and kind and strategic, and that
somehow we need to embed in our training, in our expectations,
in our processes that pastoring people is really important and
that authentic good public leadership involves honesty,

(52:46):
vulnerability, integrity, accountability, truthfulness,
and humility and all of the things that the lowland
principles would set out. I.
Think Gareth down here has got aquestion and.
Am I able to make a comment, Cliff, please do just around the
commentary around business within the language,

(53:07):
particularly in that subject there and and some of the
country around business when youand this is when we we
illustrate business from a Christian perspective.
When we talk about church leadership, we often talk
negatively around business leadership and the framework
we're speaking about. It's a framework of business
operation that is is almost dying out.

(53:27):
And so we're making comparative terms to something that doesn't
exist anymore. So we're a straw man arguing the
the business community. When you look at the business
community today, and I'm engagedin a number of conversations
around leadership in business, Iwould say nine times out of 10,
they're ahead of the curve of the church.
And the little example of that is most businesses now are

(53:51):
moving away from defining the management of staff as human
resources. And they are the the departments
are called people and culture. And so as a consequence, they're
looking at the empowerment of the individuals within team
based decision making in order to accomplish the task for which
the business operates in. Not all businesses produce

(54:13):
products. 80% of businesses are service industries.
We have an awful lot to to learnfrom customer service and I
think many of the customer services principles.
Horse Schultz, Christian Guy, the fan of the Ritz Carlton
hotel chain, read a book called Excellence Wins.
His principles of customer service would translate
beautifully into church welcome teams.
And so our ability, and this is the invitation to speak into the

(54:38):
business community requires us to think about church leadership
as something to contribute to the business world rather than
separate from the business world.
Because what I find in the business communities I am in,
and the example would be in Dorset where I am, we've changed
the vision of the Dorset Chamberof Commerce from what it was,
which was serving businesses to making businesses a force for

(55:01):
good in the community. And within the context that I
sit in, the question I am asked within that group and is you're
a church minister, please tell us what good means.
So within that. Framework, My commentary was,
please, if it's possible withoutour language around business, we
actually need to be more inviting and innovating to speak

(55:24):
into the business community rather than see ourselves as
just separating what we're operating.
I I I agree. With you, Gareth, I think that's
a really helpful commentary, particularly from from your own
experience, which I know very well.
I want to push back a bit. And the push back is that you're
defining the best of businesses.Just as often people can define
the best of churches. And what I said was let's
compare our worst to their best.So that's a point well made.

(55:46):
But the reality still exists that unless a business has an
ethical and a moral and a socialheart, then it will not have the
culture that you've just described.
And many businesses do not do that.
And I do think that we as Christian leaders can speak into
that with the with the ethos that you've just outlined.
But I would would want to just put a, an amber light around the

(56:08):
idea that business carte blancheleads the way in ethical, moral
and kind decisions and actions. I don't agree with that.
We our time. Has gone.
I'm sure we could ask many more questions and we want to respect
your time. We've got lunch and then one

(56:29):
final great session of our summit to come with our new
general Superintendent. And so maybe we'll just pause,
we'll pray, and then we really want to just let you head off
and enjoy your lunch. So, Father, we thank you that we
can say we are your children. We thank you that.
You have established your church.

(56:51):
As the body of. Christ here on planet earth and
as we continue to carry leadership responsibility at all
kinds of places within church and in ministry, and for many
here as well in their life out in industry and commerce and
education and healthcare, so many sectors.

(57:11):
Would you grace us with your heart of compassion, to love
people, to reach people, to see our lives as a vehicle of your
life and your message, and in doso doing that people will be
inspired not to follow us, but to follow Jesus.
This is our prayer today in his amazing name, Amen.

(57:32):
God bless you. Thank you very much.
Enjoy your lunch.