August 9, 2023 • 53 mins
Episode 123: Fin (@barneybarnett01) and Pat (@patspellman) talk about how Pat took the 2020 lockdown situation and turned it into a massive opportunity. The lads venture into Pat's journey of turning an information-seeking initiative on what was happening with touch rugby during the 2020 pandemic lockdown into a hit podcast that has garnered more than over half a million listens.
In the world of digital business, Pat highlights the need to ensure easy access to content for media consumers, and good execution in the success of his podcast. We also dive deep into the interplay of radio and podcasting, marketing elements that transfer between the two, and the importance of staying true to oneself in content creation.
Enjoy the show!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat Spellman (00:00):
First three people to DM "Pat's Shout.
Oh boy, you won.
There you go, pat Shout for afree Ellen Ave poster.
Fin Barnett (00:07):
You see, no one's gonna DM, but Whatever, yo yo,
just before we get into it, Ihope you enjoy this chat as much
as I did with Pat.
It was really good.
We talked about a number ofthings, but rather than telling
you what we talked about, here'sa couple of snippets, just so
you see that whole conversation.
Stick around for the wholeconversation.
There's a whole lot of gems inthere.
(00:27):
Here's a couple of snippets.
Enjoy, and then we'll get intothe show.
Check.
"If you can't say it in asentence, it shouldn't be said"
I killed myself trying to dolike one every single week for
like the first year that I didit.
Pat Spellman (00:39):
"I'm gonna tease everyone.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'stomorrow.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'snow and then, yep, I'm gonna
tell them it's still there.
Hold up, I'm gonna teaseeveryone.
Fin Barnett (00:48):
"Well, I'm gonna tease you.
I'm gonna tell you it'stomorrow.
And then now it's tomorrow, I'mgonna tell you it's here, it's
right here.
I'm gonna tell you it's stillthere, it's still there.
Go back, listen One of thethings that you were telling me
when I was like you know, like,how do I get this podcast going
again, how do I get it better?
Like, what do I do to make it?
What's the difference between,like this, getting nothing, and
(01:08):
yours getting everything?
And you said something to meand it was so we're back.
Yeah, for another round.
Thanks for the invitation, bro.
I appreciate it.
I wanna talk to you today abouthow you grew a podcast over.
I'm gonna just guess like500,000 listens, but I think I'm
wrong.
Pat Spellman (01:23):
No, yeah, it's north of that, but not quite a
milly.
Fin Barnett (01:27):
We died Not quite a mill year but there's a
potential return, so I wannatalk about that.
And then just, you know you'rea wise man and an even better
storyteller, so any stories youwanna fold it along the way as
well, so tell me.
Touch projects, podcasts, touchwhat I got.
Oh, sorry, no, so you grew thisthing to over.
(01:48):
North of 500,000 listens.
Yeah, like when did you startat Y, how, who, what we went.
Pat Spellman (01:55):
All right, well, give the very high level summary
right.
So we started in 2020.
I wanna say 2020.
Fin Barnett (02:01):
It was around the pandemic first lockdown.
Yeah, 2020 was the first,because that's when this thing
started too.
Pat Spellman (02:06):
Yeah, and I think I've shared.
I think I talked about this onyour first one, but I've talked
about this often.
I started the podcast becauseof my I was a little pissed off
at how lacklustre the comms werein terms of touching general,
and there was so much going onbut very little information.
I now know, having spent a yearworking there, that it's a lot
(02:29):
more complicated than justsaying something or sharing
something.
So if I could go back and tweakmy critique, I probably would,
and.
But basically we started thepodcast so that I could ring Joe
, who is the CEO of TNZ, and askhim questions that we were all
dying for the answers to,because that's the only way I
knew how, which was just to havean upfront conversation.
(02:52):
At that time I didn't work forhim and I could ask whatever I
wanted.
But it turned into a bit of a Idon't know a lockdown kind of
survival mechanism for a lot ofour touch people, not just in
New Zealand but actually allaround the world.
And I guess that's how it grew,because we'd start getting more
and more people on and theywould share their ficcato, how
they're feeling around thelockdown, but equally their
(03:14):
stories too, and then that'ssort of how we grew it.
So it started off as almost abit of an online protest like
give me info because I want toknow what's going on.
No one knows what's happening.
And then we just grew it into,you know, almost like an audio
community grapevine kind ofthing, where people were able to
sort of share stories ofmotivation, inspiration,
education, information, likeeverything about touch lived on
(03:35):
the Touch Project podcast, whichI guess by share fluke it was
never really the intention, Ididn't see it lasting any longer
than sort of six or sevenepisodes, but then, but it was
weird because it did right Likehe had, the first chat Was the
first one with Joe.
Yeah, he was the very firstepisode, mr Spray.
And then was it Shaq?
Then we got Shaq on becauseShaq's like my boy and I've
known Shaq way before I was evenanything in touch, not to
(03:56):
suggest that I am, but you knowwhat I mean, like I knew Shaq
before You're the MC man.
Yeah, yeah, I knew him beforethen I knew Shaq and then I had
that yarn with him and thenbasically I just worked through
my contact list.
Fin Barnett (04:07):
Yeah, just a bag of water, a fin up there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah afins next.
Pat Spellman (04:10):
And then I took to Sha, you know, and then we got
our mate from Ozzy.
Here's a funny story.
We had Joe on and Joe was ableto share some sort of context as
to what was happening in NewZealand.
And that must have caught windoverseas, right, Because then I
get a DM from someone who nolonger works there anymore, but
she worked at Touch FootballAustralia, asking if there was
an opportunity for us to sharesome stuff around what's
(04:32):
happening in Australia.
And then we get Jamie O'Connor,who's the Chief Executive of
Touch Football Australia, and hejumps on and uses it as an
opportunity to share somecontext as to how he's having a
Saq 30 people and all this otherstuff.
So it almost turned into a bitof a news feed.
And then, I think, ironically,it became so obvious that this
was a pretty cool way of doingit that TFA started their own.
(04:53):
So many of that, you know,killed her.
That's sort of how it started.
So I think, in answer to yourquestion, how did it grow to be
as popular or whatever it was?
It was just the people, right?
I never made it about me, itwas never about my story because
, to be fair, I don't reallyhave one in touch.
It was always about the peopleI was talking to.
You know their connection tothe sport, Sport and general.
(05:14):
I would sometimes ask questionsthat everyone really wanted to
ask but, for whatever reason,couldn't or didn't have the
means to ask those questions.
I was able to do it, so it wasa good time.
Those were the days I feel like.
Fin Barnett (05:28):
I feel like real good podcasts or just like like
there's this one dude I listenedto and he's like he's just like
a regular dude Well, he'spretty successful as well, but
he just asked like he's justlike straight to the point.
And when you're straight to thepoint, it's kind of refreshing
to have someone who doesn'tdance around stuff.
And this is like everyone'sthinking this.
Pat Spellman (05:46):
If you're lucky enough and I say lucky because I
feel it's actually luck to bein a position either powerful,
influenced or, you know, sostrong that you can do that.
I had it for a minute, you know, like there was a very finite
time period where I was able toget away with asking whatever.
(06:07):
I wouldn't dare do it now, butyou know, back at that time you
could plead ignorance or forwhatever reason.
I was a volunteer and I was hotproperty for a minute, and so I
was able to just laugh and getaway with asking stuff that if I
asked now I'd get a look.
Fin Barnett (06:22):
Yeah.
Pat Spellman (06:23):
So I think everyone has the opportunity to
do that if they time it.
You know perfectly.
And then some people there'sjust so much control, clout or
power that they can do it for aslong as they want.
Fin Barnett (06:35):
Yeah.
So I know all of those people,certain people, yeah, certain
people can't, but I think, ifyou like, I try to channel that
like just even at work and stuffas well, just even in general
Cause, like if you want to knowan answer, like, why don't you
just ask?
Pat Spellman (06:45):
Yeah, and I think often for me.
Anyway, I'll ensure that I'vegot at least enough value that
people will forget that I'veoffended them, or they will
forget I've pissed them off, orthey'll forget that I have
provided them with enough truthfor them to be annoyed.
Yeah, I'll ensure that at leastmy resume is strong enough for
(07:06):
them to go.
You know what, pat?
You're at deck for asking methis question, for whatever
reason, be it, it's a stupidquestion, or they're offended
because it's true, and if theydon't answer it, that's up to
them.
But at least I'm not going toget in the ship for asking you.
I now know how to time thosequestions really well.
Fin Barnett (07:20):
Yeah, you've got to have like a bit of time and to
say, very strategic in how youask these things, yeah, which is
sad, right, but that's thereality.
It comes from experience.
So, like being in a situationwhere you ask it and then show
it, you're like, oh, I shouldn'thave asked that.
Pat Spellman (07:30):
Yeah, and I don't have those moments anymore
because I'm now old enough andyou know, arguably more mature
that I can determine whether ornot I think someone's going to
be offended by what I've justasked them.
And seldom will I go there, andif I do, I probably don't care
what you think anyway.
So and I've changed man, Idon't do that anymore.
Fin Barnett (07:54):
Yeah, it's nice to channel a little bit of it Like,
and as long as you do it withgood intent, I reckon as well as
like the resume and thewhatever behind it if you do it
like good intent.
Pat Spellman (08:04):
Intent is the key to everything, right?
Yeah, so if your intention isto generate a new work in Com so
you'll know this if your intentof the headline is to generate
clickbait, then of course youhave to accept what comes as a
result of that, right, that'sthe risk that you run, and
sometimes it'll pay off.
The reward will be immense, andsometimes you've just created a
minor catastrophe and you needto now navigate those waters.
(08:26):
I think this every time I turnon my con and open my mouth at
Nationals or you know, orsomething it's.
Am I going to?
I don't know if I'll tell thestory, but I got my very first
ever complaint about me at theNationals just gone.
Oh yeah, totallyunsubstantiated, absolute
(08:46):
rubbish.
She was wrong, you know, butyou know it was formalized and
it turned into an actual thingand I was so offended because
there is a million things thatyou can complain about what I do
, say or act, or you know how Iconduct myself and what this
individual you know was harpingon about.
It was so wrong and there wasso much proof.
(09:09):
And then, anyway, the reason Ishare that is because often you
just can't win, bro, like youcan be, so you know, so it is
what it is.
Fin Barnett (09:18):
That's true, though the intent, though it's Intent.
Pat Spellman (09:20):
sorry, that was the point.
Thank you for circling that.
I got you.
Fin Barnett (09:23):
I got you.
Pat Spellman (09:24):
The intent is so important.
Fin Barnett (09:25):
If your intention is to be, you know, calm and
lovely and respectful, then howit's received is their business,
not yours Intent and beingyourself, yeah, well at work,
like so I'm, I'm like anaccounts manager now, as I was
telling you Congrats, this is togo up.
Pat Spellman (09:42):
Yeah, I like that.
Fin Barnett (09:43):
I actually came in.
You know I've worked my way upthe steps.
Pat Spellman (09:46):
I'm with it.
Fin Barnett (09:47):
You know, I came in as just like a little bit of a
grunt work.
Each day, you know, rock up towork In the trenches, yeah, in
the trenches.
Hey, what do you need me to dotoday?
I'll set this up.
Do this research.
Pat Spellman (09:57):
I'll find some.
Fin Barnett (09:59):
Did that.
And then you know, anopportunity came along to do a
bit of email for one of theclients.
That went really well for them.
Pat Spellman (10:05):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (10:06):
So it is, and then a bit of strategy started coming
in.
Pat Spellman (10:09):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (10:10):
And then Bit of chat started coming in, as I you
decent at talking to theclients.
Well, you know, here I amtalking to the clients having
coffees and shaking hands, baby,that's right.
Pat Spellman (10:20):
And you know, every letter was created one
step at a time.
My friend, in order to climb it, you have to first build each
step.
Amen, you have, but I just cameup with it now.
Fin Barnett (10:27):
That's kind of you can just quote that yeah, no,
but how do you climb up a ladderonce they've had a time?
Once they mean but yeah, solike when I, when I talk to
clients, someone said somethingto me the other day of the like
sometimes you're just like sounprofessional, but like only
you can get away with it.
Yeah, as in, like you kind ofact a little bit like off,
offbeat, like, but that's justme being myself and it cuts
(10:51):
through the character yeah.
And I feel like I'll feel it outwith the client.
You know you can tell whethersomeone's still bro right.
Yeah, A hundred percent.
You can tell with their sir brothe room mate, or man or boss
or you know, like just hello andsir name, yeah, and like you,
as you build the relationshipyou can feel it more.
Pat Spellman (11:09):
Have you ever read the room wrong?
Not yet, because someone cutsyou and they should have been
Not yet.
So I can Not yet.
Yeah that they will come.
Yeah, even when I read the roomwrong.
Fin Barnett (11:17):
Yeah, I'm sure it will Like I don't think I'm.
I definitely don't think I'minvincible.
I've got a million things tolearn but no one's invincible.
I've definitely found that, youknow, like if you just be
yourself, be authentic, goodvibes, good intent, like no one
can really harm me.
Like there's that thing aboutLeBron, and like when people
started to hate on LeBron whenhe got to the height of his game
and someone was like, oh sorry,so the dude lived up to all the
(11:40):
hype that was impossibly put onhim at the age of 18.
He like did everything thateveryone said that he wouldn't
be able to do or that if hedidn't do he was a failure.
He like got with his highschool suite, never been in
trouble with the law or thatstuff.
Like he just like he tries hardevery day.
Like what do you hate him for?
Pat Spellman (11:58):
I quote that I don't know who said it, but I
and if I was ever, you know,tough enough to get a tattoo, it
would probably be this one.
It's that you know, if you liveyour truth, no one can hold it
against you, and so that'salways a, you know, personal
kind of you know, for car ormotor or whatever.
That I've always gone by isthat you can call me whatever
you want, or you can critique mymahi, or you can say I didn't
(12:20):
deliver on whatever, but you cannever, ever suggest that I'm
anything other than true tomyself and who I am, and you
know.
Whether or not you love that orhate it or whatever, that's up
to you.
I don't really I've grown to notcare, because I think everyone
cares to a certain extent whatpeople think of them, but it's
actually I've just accept thatthat's what people think of me
(12:40):
and I, and I also accept thatoften emotions are momentary and
then you can change them.
So if someone likes you orloves you, or doesn't like you,
or hate you or whatever, that istotally within your power to
care and or not, and then,equally to your actions will
determine their reaction.
So I'm just me, and some peopleabsolutely adore me.
(13:04):
And then there are some peoplethat go, oh this big mouth, you
know chabalard, you knowwhatever, and I'm so totally
okay with it and it's yeah, Idon't know, bro, like I didn't
used to be, like it used toreally impact and affect my
emotions, just how other peoplelike thought of you and stuff.
I always wanted to be the mostliked guy in touch, like that
(13:25):
was my thing.
Fin Barnett (13:26):
What was that like when you were doing like radio
and then like the podcast andstuff, or like being at RSM,
like did you, did you have thatthroughout those phases?
Like or?
Pat Spellman (13:37):
Yeah, I don't know .
I am for me.
Again, like I said, I've alwaysstruggled with never impossible
syndrome.
Why I don't think so?
Because I potentially havealways believed in my abilities.
You know, like I've alwaysknown that, that I am capable
and I'm very confident andsometimes I will struggle with,
(14:00):
you know, perception or you knowlooking around and not seeing
anything that reflects or remindme of me.
That was always.
One of the struggles at RSM wasthat I was the only Maori person
in a staff of 70, or at leastthe only, you know, visibly
vocal Maori, because you cannever guess someone's fuck up
(14:23):
upper.
But that was always a strugglefor me is that if I, if I can
see it, I'll be it.
And if I look around and Idon't identify as someone in the
room and I'm the only one inthe room that often unfairly on
myself, I'll, I'll weather theweight of responsibility of oh
well, now I have to be Pat theMaori or Pat the Cook Island or
(14:44):
Pat the Pacific guy person and Ithink that's just something I
need to work through myself.
But I don't know.
I've always struggled with thatis that you know people's
perceptions of me and it wasonly very recently, like maybe
this time last year when Irealized he actually has nothing
to do with me.
If I live my truth and theyhelp and they hold that against
me, then that's on them, not me.
Fin Barnett (15:05):
I've been trying to do a better job of that myself.
I think the last few years,especially like I've really come
into like being comfortablewith who I am.
Pat Spellman (15:13):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (15:14):
Something that, like I think it's like from the
past, when I was doing thepodcast.
I get so like a little bitstressed and like nervous about,
just, for example, this podcast, like when it comes out like
people are going to, like youknow, think some kind of way, or
is it not going to go well, oris it not going to be.
Like I messaged Tyler andCourtney they are the ones who
are on the podcast last week orthe other week or whatever, yeah
(15:34):
, and I miss them.
I was like, oh, I was a littlebit nervous when I put this out
because I was like you know,what are people going to think?
Or like, is it going to be aflop?
I'm stressing about something Ican't control, which I don't
like, and I've been working onand I'm way better at it, but,
for whatever reason, now thatthis podcast back like I'm
stressing about things I can'tcontrol again, but I messaged
(15:55):
them, I was like that's how Iwas feeling, but I just listened
to it back and like, regardlessof like how it's received, I'm
really happy with it, like itwas actually real good.
Pat Spellman (16:05):
You know, I guess that comes with you know being a
profile.
You know this sounds edas, butbeing a public, you know profile
, you know someone who has aprofile and be clear, anyone
that puts themselves out thereis a, is a pro.
You know, as someone who is,who is confident or brave enough
(16:25):
to share enough about them tocomplete stranger, is worthy of
being championed.
Because you know, if you aregenerous enough, brave enough
and and you know, I guess,confident enough whether you are
always confident or you findconfidence in that moment to
share a little bit about you andprovide value for others, then
(16:45):
I think you deserve to bechampioned.
And I think that's the beingnervous about something or being
, you know, on the edge abouthow something is going to be
received, comes as a part ofthat process of finding their
confidence to want, you know,want to be, you know, received
as respectfully, as you hope,people.
Fin Barnett (17:07):
Well, it's like having confidence in like what
you know you've done and cancontrol, like, for example, this
podcast.
I can like have a good chat andthat's all I can control doing.
I can like make, like I can do,cool descriptions or whatever,
and that's all I can controldoing, but I can't control how
other people would see it.
Or like at work.
I remember at the start of theyear like we all get along mean
(17:28):
at work and stuff, like actuallyI love my work.
It's preface that just claim.
Preface.
But I remember at one pointthere was just like a bit of a
back and forth and I remembergoing to the meeting being like
I'm so comfortable to like nottalk back but like to back
myself against anyone becauselike I know I do my job and I
(17:49):
know I do my job really well.
Yeah, like so I'm quiteconfident in myself and the
things I do that I can control,like for example in that work
setting, so that If someonejudges me or someone like
perceives something, somethingI'm like oh well, you know what?
like I know I did a good job, soI can back myself on yeah, yeah
.
I guess it's just trying towork on that, to have that with
(18:10):
the podcast.
Did you like?
You literally like?
Hundreds of thousands of peoplehave listened to the podcast
and it's not about you, butyou're the one facilitating all
of the chess.
Did you ever think about thisin relation to that?
Pat Spellman (18:23):
I Don't know.
That's a good question.
No, probably not.
Probably going back to my timein radio, like I was never the
superstar of the show, thatmakes sense.
Always Scotty Pippin, neverMichael Jordan.
Good example.
Fin Barnett (18:37):
You know, yeah, great I was, I was.
Pat Spellman (18:41):
You know, most times I was the anchor of the
show and if you're familiar withhow radio works, as you left
someone, like you know,old-school hip-hop and R&B that
seems to be light on flavor, andthen you'd pan to the next
person and then they'd come inand that you know I would pitch
the ball.
I would never be the one thatsmacks it out the park, and so
my expectations have always beenhigh, based off of the fact
(19:05):
that I'll never have aconversation with someone that I
don't Genuinely believe hassomething to share and has value
to add or is going to makesomeone who listens make their
life better.
There's just no conversation.
A few of them had less of thatin it, you know, in terms of
their episodes, but everybody Itook the time to reach out to
(19:26):
and lock in and have thatconversation with, I felt could
add value and it like it goesback to radio.
Like you know, as the anchor,it's often your job to set up
the play of the voice break, andI would never go into the, into
the show and set up voicebreaks that I didn't believe had
an Mj moment.
(19:47):
There's just no point, becausethat my job is to ensure
consistent value and so I don'tknow.
I think One of the one of thethings for me over the last
little bit is that I've alwaysbeen so super confident of my
abilities, but often the key tobeing a really good team player
is understanding that noteverybody is as confident in
(20:10):
their abilities and their valuethat they bring in so often.
Regardless of how much value Iknow I can bring the team, my
Achilles is often been Notlooking around to see whether or
not other people can keep up orwhether or not their value is
akin to mine, and so as long asI finished the race, I was
totally happy.
But if it's a baton relay, thenthat doesn't really make sense.
(20:35):
You know you have to be a teamplayer to ensure that everybody
is at that standard, so do you?
Fin Barnett (20:40):
ever develop like like tips or tricks to to help
out other people?
Yeah, like with the podcast orlike with the radio, you know,
you have to facilitate, like yousay, like I can't just be you,
that does well, I think, for me,bro trick.
Pat Spellman (20:54):
No trick.
But what I did and I got betterwith this over time and I'm not
perfect by any means and I never, you know, I never profess to
be perfect, but what I've, whatI've become better at, I believe
, is just taking a moment,taking time and actually
assessing the job andunderstanding what needs to take
place and Work, work backwardsfrom the I think I've said this
to you before.
(21:15):
I always work backwards from agoal, but generally what I would
do is work backwards from thegoal and how I would achieve the
process, and now I'll often nowvillage mentality, everything.
So I'll work backwards from agoal but ensure that I will
focus on the stuff I'm reallygood at and then I'll go okay,
finn's really good at that, I'mgonna reach out to Finn and
Finn's gonna help me with this.
Or Jordy's really good at this,I'm gonna reach out to Jordy,
(21:36):
or Liam can help me with that,or whatever.
I've just become really good atSurrounding myself with really
good, competent people that aresuperstars in their lane and
then ensuring that Every lane ofthe pools got a swimmer.
Fin Barnett (21:49):
That's lucky, a bar man.
It's pretty boring race ifyou're the only one in it, but
oh, wow sometimes you just hitme with the lines they just,
they just so crisp they throw meoff my rhythm just like that
you know that one.
I think I can break down thepodcast success to perfect
timing.
Yeah with some great execution,yeah, good names in the sport
and Great facilitation of a chatwhich makes it enjoyable enough
(22:12):
to listen to that someone saysweet.
I want to come back like one ofthe things we talked about with
this podcast.
It's like what do people comeback for each time?
And we had that what is it?
Well, now it's about chats forbusiness and people like
listening to other stories fromother people that have been in
business, been there, done itall, been there, doing it like
that.
Listen to, like their stories,listen to like their tips, their
(22:34):
learnings, their mistakes.
Pat Spellman (22:35):
I think remember the young that we had like.
Why I listened to your podcastwas at the time, which you've
obviously.
You know there's been a pivotright or you've been a pivot.
It's been like a focus, it'sbeen like a same energy of like
good people doing good things,because it was young young
Professionals at first, rightyeah yeah and I think at the
time and I think I shared thiswith you the reason I would
(22:58):
listen to Ellen Ev, particularlywhen I was at out, because I
said I already seem at the timewhy I would listen to our words
I received, why I'd listen toEllen Ev, was to get Inside as
to how someone teenies youngerthan me, because you were how do
you know 23, so you literallyten years younger than me, right
?
Yeah, so I would listen, just sothat I'm in In sync, I guess,
(23:18):
with how people ten years, myjunior thinking and acting and
moving because that's still kindof important in the world that
I, that I work in terms of comms, trends and whatnot.
Fin Barnett (23:28):
But yeah, I think it.
Yeah, Well, I think like peoplelike, for example, with the
touch project podcast, it waslike a way to stay on the pulse
and like, for this example aswell, it's like Every everything
in business these days.
Like I was having a chat theother day with Sam, I was like
everything a business is digital, like everything is like this
podcast, there's like onlinemarketing, there's online, like
(23:50):
just websites in general, andlike some people are either in
that world or they're not, buteither way, like you need To be
in that world and either way,like there's things that people
are doing in that world that,like you can take for yourself
Whatever you're doing as well.
So I kind of like that's likethe angle that this is going
down now.
Pat Spellman (24:05):
Nice, I like that.
Fin Barnett (24:06):
It's just like being focused.
Yeah, you know, but like thereason that your things exceeded
was all of the things that Isaid, like it was good execution
, like perfect timing, goodnames, like everyone in that
niche was like sweet and youwere the only ones.
You had no competition as well.
Pat Spellman (24:22):
And then when?
Fin Barnett (24:22):
there was competition like respectfully, I
think you were Still the numberone.
Pat Spellman (24:27):
I think the other thing too, bro, is you have to
make it easy, because often we,in terms of people that consume
media, there's so many options,right, there's so many options
and so many different avenuesone can take that it needs to be
as easy as possible, and so Iguess we really.
I really wouldn't have startedthe podcast if it could not have
(24:49):
been on every single platformstraight away.
So it was super important thatwhen we dropped an episode, it
was on Apple and Spotify and youknow I, heart and Google and
everything straight away.
You know at the same time andso often, like I and sometimes
what you can control thatbecause things would get dropped
(25:10):
at different times or whatever.
So sometimes an episode wasalready on Spotify for like
Three hours before it, you know,before it popped up on Apple or
whatever, and so I justwouldn't tell anybody until
everything was ready.
Oh yeah, because I didn't want,like if Finn listens via Spotify
and I listen on Apple, and thenI put something on IG or saying
(25:32):
on Facebook or whatever, andsaid you know yo episode with
you know Pat's online now andthey would define open in a
wasn't there.
I really didn't like lettingpeople down.
The irony is that we let peopledown a lot Because you know
guests pull out or audio trashor Someone you know gets told
they can't do it or whatever,and we've already told people.
(25:53):
So I got, I got.
I got really good at recordingit, editing it, getting it ready
, asking if they're okay andthen tell people.
So like this next.
You know, Whatever, we're gonnacall it the return.
I've told maybe you know justoff sidebar how many people in
(26:16):
your close friend, oh man, yeahso I've hungry oh.
Fin Barnett (26:19):
Yeah, okay, that's a good thing, yeah yeah, that's
a nice political answer, thatone anyway.
Pat Spellman (26:28):
So no one knows, and I'm not gonna tell anyone
because I've just learned, bro,like you got to keep it easy and
you have to, you have to justnot let people down.
Fin Barnett (26:40):
Hmm, I don't know when you do, but Well, something
I've like learned with flatessentials and with this podcast
is that when technology is,bring it back.
I Looked at the Instagram theother day and I was like yo,
this was fire, like I wasrunning.
That I can't believe it.
Pat Spellman (26:54):
I wish I was as well off as I am now, back then
because I just want to boughtten boxes of you just to be,
just to be the man, because Iremember when I'd buy them off
you man, I'd have to budget forthat shit.
Yeah, I Respect it still tothis day.
I would buy one supporteverything I do.
Fin Barnett (27:09):
I'm literally sitting at a table looking at
the L and F poster that's infront of you.
Pat Spellman (27:13):
I don't even have one of those.
You can have one.
Fin Barnett (27:16):
I honestly don't even have one of those.
Yeah, maybe you always ended afriend then, so anyways.
Pat Spellman (27:24):
Can you sign one for me before you go?
Fin Barnett (27:26):
yeah, I actually will get cool if you want to you
can have one and you sign onefor me.
Pat Spellman (27:29):
I'll put a proper solar friend L and F comm.
Fin Barnett (27:32):
I don't even know if you know.
Yeah, there's the one there onthe shop.
Anyways, are they?
Yeah, I think so.
I just haven't made them asprominent because I was being
weird to do it.
Pat Spellman (27:41):
So before now, first three people to DM, I'll
buy the one.
Fin Barnett (27:44):
Yeah, there you go.
Pat Spellman (27:45):
Okay, first three people to DM first three people
to DM.
Patch out, I'll buy you one.
Fin Barnett (27:52):
There you go, patch out for a free Ellen have
posted.
Yeah, can help you so no one'sgonna DM.
But Anyways, what I've learnedwith both both of them is that,
like, when something can gowrong with technology at will,
yeah, and I have had to teachmyself to be so much more
patient and have way lessexpectations and Pressure on
(28:13):
myself to deliver something.
So, even with this, I was likeI I'm taking Pat's approach, I'm
not having a set schedule likewhen I do them, because, because
that's what I do, I killedmyself trying to do like one
every single week for like thefirst year that I did it, bro,
and I can pretty, either thequality would be trash, what I
(28:34):
would literally like run myselfinto burnout because I was
forcing an episode and I was.
You know, like the Wi-Fi wasabsolutely trash so it wouldn't
upload, and then I was stressingabout our YouTube's not up but
the the audio is.
Or you know, like, oh, like, ittakes me like five hours to
edit this.
I could just not edit it, butit won't be as good.
Like there's so much that cango wrong with first technology
(28:57):
touch project.
Pat Spellman (28:57):
When we first did it I was dropping two a week
right yeah, at the peaksometimes three lockdown.
Nothing else to do, nothing at100% right, and that was just
not sustainable.
Yeah and then I started puttingreal unnecessary pressure on
myself and I would, you know,take it real personal when
people would say no, they don'twant to episode, which is
(29:19):
totally okay, because noteveryone was a certain to about
touch.
But I'll be like, what do youmean?
And it wasn't about.
You know, like I did, I nevertook a moment to appreciate,
like it's not, like Iran can doit, but I would take a personal
and I and in reflection I nowknow the reason I was taking it
personal, because then I wasn'table to hit my own, your own
(29:40):
unnecessary KPIs of two a week.
Fin Barnett (29:43):
You got to have no like, unless it's your actual
full-time thing that you aredoing and like that's your thing
, I reckon yeah you can't putpressure on yourself.
You got to understand it'sprobably gonna take like an
extra two days and you think andyou also got to remember my old
man said this to me he's likeyou gotta remember that you're
the only one waiting on it.
Like realistically, that's,that's a, that's a good one.
(30:06):
You're the only one waiting onit, so I like this massive
meltdown once.
Pat Spellman (30:09):
I like.
Fin Barnett (30:13):
Essentials or the podcast.
Yeah, and I went to him.
This was like I was.
I was going through a bit of aphase at this point.
I was struggling like mentally.
I was like it was a little bithard, hmm, and.
I was like dad, like this, likeit's all going like the hell,
like it's it's going down, it'sgoing to shit, like it's not
working, you know.
And he was like what's wrong?
I was like, well, we said wewere gonna do this and like it's
(30:34):
tomorrow and it hasn't happenedand we're not gonna be able to
do it and I don't know how we'regonna do it tomorrow.
And he's like how many peopleare waiting on this?
I was like I don't know, butlike I said that we would do it
and I don't want to not meetwhat I said.
He's like so where's thepressure coming from?
Is anyone else like likepressuring you for this?
I was like, nah, he's like justyou.
I said yeah, well, he's likethe only one waiting on it.
(31:00):
Is you like?
Pat Spellman (31:01):
shut up boy.
Fin Barnett (31:01):
Yeah, it's all your expectations.
You know like sorry.
Pat Spellman (31:04):
I like that.
What was the question?
I quit again, cuz I only onewaiting is you.
Fin Barnett (31:08):
Come on, mr Barnett .
Come on now.
Old man's got a couple of barslike that as well, when you edit
this, you're gonna laugh.
Pat Spellman (31:14):
You haven't got headphones on, but I
accidentally pushed one of thesebuttons and it was the wrong
button, and you're gonna laughwhen you edit it, is it like a
sound?
Effect.
Yeah, and it was like, and itwas supposed to be like one of
these is like that one.
Oh, I dropped that.
(31:35):
This is my new thing on thepodcast.
Whenever anyone says you knowsomething like dope, I'll be
like.
Fin Barnett (31:42):
Anyway, it's moments with Pat, yeah yeah,
yeah, you get like the silkysoft.
Yeah, but that's like I knowthat I like things I had to like
.
Learn that and yeah.
That would have been the samefor you going from like two to
three a week and lockdown versuslike going back to, like To go
back to work, you know yeah, howdare.
Pat Spellman (32:02):
We has to go what it like sidebar.
How good was locked down inhindsight.
Fin Barnett (32:07):
Honestly, I loved it.
Yeah it wasn't even inhindsight.
Pat Spellman (32:10):
I'm like, did you go back to mum and dad?
I was at mum and dad's.
Fin Barnett (32:13):
Yeah, already.
Yeah, I was on the farm everyday.
I was over it yeah, the firstone was it was at mine.
The second one, I was atchoppers, and then the the third
one like 2021.
Yeah, we were in.
Pat Spellman (32:28):
Auckland for a lot you know?
Yeah, that was the firstlockdown because I knew everyone
what, like you know, there was,that there was dope.
I love the first one yeahthat's just in there.
Fin Barnett (32:38):
Like that was cool, everyone was in it together,
man.
Pat Spellman (32:40):
Second one I'm like, oh yeah, I could do
another one got me out of a fewthings.
Actually, the second one Ithought you went a conference
and I really didn't want to goto it and I was like, yo, that's
a nice one.
Third one, Bro, ruined mymental health.
I mean the worst thing was that, like everyone else except
Auckland, and we were justsitting there like watching the
world and the world's Just keepgoing on.
I'm doing walking around theblock and pocket on like you
(33:01):
know, there's nothing else goingon.
I lost a bit of weight duringthat.
Fin Barnett (33:04):
I wonder what it would be like Because I know
people like listen to this fromlike Aussie and UK and you know
America and stuff as well,they're probably listening to
this thing.
Oh, he didn't even have a bad,or we did a bit.
Anyways, lock lockdowns aside,I think like I've got a.
I kind of already knew this,but it's nice, like pick it
(33:25):
apart in the conversation aroundaround the podcast.
Like, yeah, one thing that I IDidn't appreciate until recently
was how good of a job you didat pushing it using, like social
media.
Oh yeah, did you have?
I Feel like I've asked you thisbefore and I feel like I was
like what was your strategy?
What was like, what was yourplan?
(33:47):
Did you have, like contentpillars?
Did you?
like you know, like I feel likeI've asked you something.
You just like wowed me withyour answer.
But did you have a plan withsocials like that?
We, we being deliberate.
Were you just being off thecuff like oh?
Pat Spellman (34:02):
No, there was a little strategy, but it wasn't
like I didn't have.
It wasn't a plan, I just had amental strategy.
This ironically, this issomething I've been told as one
of my you know career red flagsis that I'll often just it's in
my head and then I'll just gowith it.
Don't need to write it down,don't need to tell anyone, just
trust that it's in my head.
No, you know that they don't.
(34:24):
He gets you so far for so long,bro.
Honestly, for me there was noreal plan.
It was just like I knew whereeveryone was.
We were all on our phones.
We're all sitting at home.
There was no strategy.
It was simply like, yep, I'mgonna tease everyone.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'stomorrow.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'snow.
And then, yep, I'm gonna tellthem it's still there.
And here's a highlight, here'sa quote Hold, up, I'm gonna
(34:49):
tease everyone.
Fin Barnett (34:51):
Well, I'm gonna tease you.
I'm gonna tell you it'stomorrow, and then, now it's
tomorrow, I tell you it's here,it's right here.
I'm gonna tell you it's stillthere, still there, go back
Listen.
If you missed it, was thatstories post just however or
both.
Pat Spellman (35:02):
Like you know, yeah, stories wasn't a huge,
like huge, huge thing as it isnow.
You know, now we've got, likeyou know, as you know, there's
almost campaigns designed, youknow, primarily for stories,
right without there having to bea great post where it's.
Fin Barnett (35:14):
Back then we were still kind of, you know, toying
with that idea such a good wayto look at it, though, like I
actually have never even lookedat it like that consciously,
like I think, I think you couldlook at stuff I've done and I'd
be.
I would have done that, or likesomeone else might be listening
.
I've done that, but I've neverconsciously been like oh, tease
them, tell them it's like almostTell them it's still there.
Pat Spellman (35:34):
It's a radio thing , right so?
Fin Barnett (35:37):
Oh my god, I think that's the gym.
Pat Spellman (35:38):
So that's the gym next time you're listening to
the radio, next time you'relistening to the radio and if
you so happen to be in a car foryou know a 30 minute period if
you're in traffic Just don't gospot a fire, don't listen to
podcasts or whatever.
Just chuck your favorite radiostation on ideally a music one.
(36:01):
Yeah, I could see the edge,flavor, mind, whatever, yeah
listen to the radio and listento how they start the air and
then how they work their wayaround a half an hour.
I'll start the hour by teasingyou.
This hour your chance to win$15,000.
I'm gonna play a new song fromDiddy.
Up next it's the new DJ Khaledsong.
Justin Bieber on flavor.
Oh, my god right, it's likeyour back with tea.
(36:22):
So we've teased you.
So this is what's happeningthis year Don't go anywhere.
Then the next one it's aroundlike up next, your chance
$15,000.
I told you before we'll do itnext.
Don't move.
He's DJ Khaled.
I'll play the song Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna do the competitionRight now.
Give me a call.
I went hundred for flavor.
Your chance to win 15 grand.
I need caller for ring me now.
(36:43):
Yeah, and then three songslater.
If you missed it, I gave away$15,000.
Don't worry, we'll do it againtomorrow.
More deeds at flavorconz.
So that's the this year 40minute pan right in a radio
world.
So Coms is just radio.
Radio it's just comms.
Like that's what I would do aguy.
It's.
We confirm the guest Finn.
Boom, we've locked it in, we'verecorded it, it's done.
(37:04):
I'm gonna tease everybody.
Hey, you know that that hunk ofa man on the wing.
Fin Barnett (37:09):
He's coming up.
Pat Spellman (37:10):
He's that and everyone's like you know, and
often that would be the postthat got the most engagement
because it peaked everyone'sinterest, oh shit.
Fin Barnett (37:19):
No good, no good really.
Pat Spellman (37:21):
Tony, try, holy shit.
And then tomorrow, like that'slike I, sweet, don't miss it,
this is before reminders on IG,right, so they didn't have that
at the time and then we'd postit online now listen, boom.
And then I'll wait about a day,two days maybe, but it would
always be the cycle, because youdrop it.
Wait a day.
Have a look, have we hitthousand yet?
(37:42):
We're good, I had sweet.
Fin Barnett (37:44):
That must be so nice man.
Pat Spellman (37:46):
It got it, it got um, it was unhealthy for a
minute.
Fin Barnett (37:50):
That's me one day one.
One day maybe I.
Pat Spellman (37:53):
Put you know.
The thing is, though, I alwayswanted to be better than the
episode before mm like I wanted,which was not sustainable once
he started hitting the, thebigger names, hmm, say yeah,
yeah, yeah, but some we wouldlike, um, we wouldn't, we would
have, um, I did a, I did.
The guy from FIT, the old fella, yeah, that was the dad like
(38:17):
and I don't mind telling themthat like it was me, my mom and
you know the neighbor thatlistened to that like no one
even listened to it straightaway.
They all went back and mighthave been by accident came up
next and you know, apple orwhatever.
Um, there was actually so muchvalue in that, um, in that
episode.
Fin Barnett (38:34):
Yeah, he talked about eligibility.
Pat Spellman (38:36):
You know what's happening around the world with
COVID, blah blah.
And it wasn't until, like,people went back because that
run out of other Episodes tolisten to, and then we back and
listen to him.
Keep forgetting his name Oldfella.
Nice guy hold me off.
Actually, in the end fun fact,if you go back and have a listen
to it there's a bit at the endwhere I'm, like you know,
rounding it out.
Thanks for your time.
(38:56):
Oh good, oh good.
Hey, pettifig, you just stay onthe course whenever check with
you.
And then I was so lazy, Ididn't need it to that.
Fin Barnett (39:03):
I was like yeah, you sweet.
Pat Spellman (39:04):
Sorry, I stopped pushing recording.
The next one was like how doyou blah, blah, blah.
It was pretty funny.
And then the bro tip, you know,mrs, he was like what do you
want to talk to you about?
At the end that I was like, oh,you wanted to give me the
what's up.
And even even now People willlike say, oh, what do we want to
talk to you about?
Oh, that's because I left it inyeah, it's gonna annoy me now
(39:24):
if I don't get his name.
Fin Barnett (39:26):
Yeah, well, I'll let you come back to it.
Pat Spellman (39:28):
That's like Bill Kerr, bill Kerr, there you go,
sorry, sorry, anyway.
Fin Barnett (39:35):
I listened to the radio.
This I did this a couple monthsago.
I was thinking about, you know,bringing the podcast back.
I was listening to the radiobecause, like, when you think
about it, the radio has beenaround much longer than podcasts
, long time and it's stillaround Mm-hmm, and like they
have hella money, like it's all.
It's all fading and fading, andfading and fading.
But, like you know, you listento your everyday podcast and
(39:56):
it's like, oh, like, if it'sremotely successful, there might
be a podcast if it's hellasuccessful.
It's like, oh, like, you know,like, go buy my merch or my
course or something.
Yeah like you listen to, likeyour average radio stations,
like literally.
Like you said, we've got fivetickets to RMV.
Call us like and we're doing itevery day this week.
Pat Spellman (40:14):
Yeah, and I was like the way they market on
there is like so good yeah it'sum, it's pretty lessens the tech
from radio, you know, inBecause prior to um, even I
might have even been before, butlike radio or newspaper, can't
remember which one I want to sayit's newspaper.
But radio is like oh gee, hmm,like Jesus was on the radio,
(40:37):
like you're like yeah, it's beenaround long, a long time ago.
Yeah, like, and so, even in asituation like you know, one day
I'll end up back on the radio.
I can just feel it, you know,it's just like my purest love.
You know, before touch therewas radio.
Yeah, and one day I'll you know, I'll figure it out and get my
own show or whatever.
But I don't know.
I just feel like podcasts andnow just little radio shows.
(40:59):
I listen to morning shift everymorning.
I was gonna say, listen tomorning show, honey, cuz like
obviously would you?
Fin Barnett (41:04):
they kind of are like doing kind of the radio
thing, because From an outsideperspective they left, they left
radio.
Yeah there's a whole whateveraround there and now they're
doing their own radio.
I listen to it because um.
Pat Spellman (41:18):
Obviously, one of my best mates works there.
I don't think it worked.
I don't know if he still workson the show, but he was part of
it, the very beginning side outof yeah, it's my boy, but I love
it.
I think it's great.
They've managed to remove allof the things I hated about
radio, sitting through fourminute a break, songs I don't
like, and they've just given youthe good bits, just the good
bits, and that's the.
(41:38):
The irony is that Radio worksreally well when you, when you
focus on the good bits, becauseyou make the good bits, make the
music and the ad's bearable.
What what the morning shift hasbeen out of do is just focus on
the good bits.
How they'll integratepartnerships and advertising
into that, we'll see.
I'm advertising it.
(41:59):
I don't know, not that I'veheard.
Oh was he?
But you expected to pop up atsome point.
Right, I got a manitizer, youknow, million downloads or
whatever it is Like it really ohno surprise, yeah, yeah, so.
So it'll be, it'll be dope.
Fin Barnett (42:11):
What, what would you other like takeaways from
radio be like?
You got the teaser and tellthem it's tomorrow, tell them
it's here, tell them it's stillthere, like is it what other
like that you can think ofMarketing stuff, how they do the
ads and and all that, or Ithink the big thing for me radio
is if you can't say in thesentence it shouldn't be said,
and You're you know.
Pat Spellman (42:31):
You can then choose to go in depth on it,
like breakfast radio, which Ionly did for about a year.
You can indulge in A paragraphwhere a sentence would do right,
because people are moreinclined to listen longer on
breakfast, because it's morepersonality driven.
But generally this is why mycomms is always very succinct
and I'll, you know, flesh it outa wee bit more where where it's
(42:55):
necessary.
But my rule generally is thatif I can't get it out in a
sentence Then the message needsto be refined and that's very
much a.
There's some radio DNA and that, so you should be able to say
everything you need in asentence.
Because of the for the largepart of I was ready for about 18
years and large Chunk of thattime I was on drive in the
(43:17):
afternoons, which is a littleless purse, so driven then Then
breakfast, and then I was alwayseither by myself or I was on a
two or three man or Person,because we can't see many more a
three person show, and my jobwas always just like I said.
I was the pippin right.
So I was in the the funny guyor the Dom Harvey or the
(43:39):
whatever like it was.
I was always the Mike Peru.
I was always the person whostarted the break.
If we're fletching Vaughan, I'mdefinitely fletch your Vaughan,
right.
That's the the reality of mytime in radio.
But that was the thing.
Is that generally it's my jobis to is to find Synergy and
make things succinct.
So if I can't say in thesentence it's too long the fact
(44:01):
that you hooked them with thesentence, and if they want more,
then you tell them, but yousell them on the sentence.
Fin Barnett (44:08):
Yes, bars, yeah, that's like arm.
There's this, there's thismodel.
Like eight, like Ada, eitherwould be like attention,
interest, desire, action.
Oh yeah, that's like one ofthose, like there's so many of
those models or whatever butI've been doing this bit of a
copywriting course recently thatI've actually been really
enjoying.
It's like a nice thing to dobefore I go to be a dish night.
Pat Spellman (44:27):
Oh yeah.
Fin Barnett (44:28):
I personally think I'm a decent copywriter.
Pat Spellman (44:30):
Yeah, nice.
Fin Barnett (44:31):
I don't think I'm a good copywriter or a great
copywriter, but I don't thinkI'm bad at it either.
Yeah, but it's something Ireally like, so I was something
I want to get better at, so I'llget better at it.
Pat Spellman (44:40):
I like that.
Fin Barnett (44:41):
And it's exactly that, like say in a sentence or
hook them in or whatever, andthen build on it, if you want.
Well, if I do it with a podcast, so, like winners are, it's a
sentence, but the podcast is 40minutes.
Pat Spellman (44:51):
I don't even know how long this chat is well, how
I found is that it's all thedetails and that you know devils
in the detail, whatever it is.
But for me it's always.
You sort of start every keypoint of the yarn with a bit of
a, with a bit of a hook, everynow and then, depending on what
your interpretation of someone'sthat you know attention
(45:12):
spinners, you should really hookthem in.
So when they see the very, hookthem back in.
So I don't know you'll noticethis when you go back and edit
this, but even now and then I'vedropped in a bit of a I people
are drifting off.
Now they don't care, but we'resaying I'm gonna drop something
now.
That's gonna get them to go.
Fin Barnett (45:29):
Oh shit a little bit longer, once you cut them
all out when you go to it.
I feel like we've really gotlike, honestly, the last 20
minutes and I've actually beenlike that's been real, I've been
loving that.
Pat Spellman (45:43):
But I think and I've certainly been guilty of
this, but it's a generationalthing, older people will do this
that they're very word countheavy, right, because to them
you give value in volume.
So if you give someone heaps ofsomething it's worth more, but
actually it's not.
You know, if I can say it in asentence, I'm still charging you
(46:05):
what it would cost if I gaveyou a thesis, because it doesn't
matter, whereas I've worked nowfor some people who love to
indulge in a yarn and Oftendoesn't need to be.
And you know what my thing isthe more I say, the more I'm
lucky to get myself in trouble.
So if I can find a way to saysomething, yep you know, in a
(46:25):
sentence or less and stillprovide value, then absolutely
I'll do that.
but I've sat in a room where Ithought Did you really say that,
bro?
Like, and it's always Third,fourth, fifth paragraph of the
yarn yeah, they know they startoff with three lines Perfect.
End it there, bro, you're done.
No, no, he'll keep going, orshe'll keep going, or they'll
keep going.
Yeah and it's like, oh, if you'dstopped at paragraph one, you
(46:49):
you know we would have beensweet here.
Or if you just got up and saidwhat a real honor and a
privilege it is to be in thisroom today.
I really appreciate it.
We're looking forward to givingyou out.
Well, thank you for letting usbe here.
We promise you the utmostrespect and we can't see, and
can't wait to see on the fieldtomorrow.
Now we can't.
Could do, done run.
Yeah, oh, bro, you know how manytimes I've been in a room where
I thought it's not what I wrote.
(47:10):
Yeah, so for me, bro, it's likeSay it in a sentence.
Fin Barnett (47:17):
I reckon the perfect amount is just enough.
Pat Spellman (47:20):
Yeah, you know, though.
Yeah, um, you know, I know, Iknow when I've said enough and
if I look around Now that I cansee, if I look around and
they're like you know, drag iton a little, jiminy, that's when
I get myself in the shit.
If I've got a pad, something alittle bit longer, because I
don't prepare to pad, yeah, likewhen I say pad, I mean you know
(47:40):
, stretch it out, stretch it out.
I never prepare for thatbecause I think, like my breath,
you're not ready, you knowready.
We're gonna stand there andlook fucking awkward because
it's your fault.
Yeah that's fair enough, butthat's the problem.
See, I'm a team plan now, so Ipad old pad.
You know what a beautiful dayit was something like that.
Fin Barnett (47:58):
There's, um, there's one more thing that I
want to ask you about.
Well, I actually I want you totalk about it.
Yeah one of the things that youwere telling me when I was like
you know, like how do I getthis podcast going again?
How do I get it better?
Like what, what do I do to makeit?
What's the difference betweenlike this getting nothing and
yours getting everything?
And you said something to meand it was.
(48:19):
It was like you make it aboutthem.
You're like, I don't make itabout me, I make it about them.
Yeah like everything on thepodcast, everything like on the
socials, especially like I don'tknow.
Like if you could touch on thatand just like what you mean by
that and how you Do that, mainlyin a social sense because you
kind of done it for the podcast,they'd be pretty valuable well,
(48:40):
it's all in in the statement,right.
Pat Spellman (48:42):
Like I, my approach with the touch project
was was never about me.
It had to be about the people Iwas talking to and with and
alongside Selfishly, becausethese stories are way better
than mine.
So, in terms of creating adrawcard, well, that's your
drawcard, right.
So, in order to grow reach andimpressions and connection with
(49:04):
people, give them something towant to reach toward, and if
they loved you enough, yournumbers would tell you you know,
and if they were interested inyou a lot, then your numbers
would be astronomical, right.
And that's what I found is thatPeople love the fact that, for
the most part on the podcast,90% of the of the content is the
(49:27):
people, and I've actually beentold you need to jump in more
and it's like no Bro.
If they want to share that, andlet them share it as we've
found.
Sometimes editing is reallyimportant, but make it about the
people, because they're thedrawcard and your goal is to and
this is my approach to MCingthings too.
So I've said them watch someterrible MCs who think that they
(49:50):
are the stars of the show andactually our job is to glue
things together in betweenaccents, to get out and Make
people smile, but don't makethem laugh, because then they'll
forget the jokes of the nextperson.
And if you make them laugh, Ineed a little bit of laughter
because we need them to hold onto some laughter for the next
person.
So I don't know, if your job isto be a superstar, that you
(50:12):
shouldn't be the host of apodcast.
That's always been my sort officcadil.
I don't know if that's gonnaresonate with anybody else, but
it's really worked well for me,and often, too, people will
share more if you let them andif your Entire approaches.
What about me then?
(50:34):
you know it's a bit Shannon Olyand you need to sort of focus on
, but you're too young for theirreference.
But you get it now InsertShannon Oly.
I've said that before, though Ihave.
Fin Barnett (50:47):
I said that line with you before.
Pat Spellman (50:48):
Yeah, Shannon oh, was the guy that just for the
kids?
Millennial, is it millennials?
What's the one after Cuz?
Fin Barnett (50:53):
I'm not what I am, I'm just me, I'm just getting
selfish.
Pat Spellman (50:58):
All the gym now's back in the day, because I'm 32,
33 next week, so we must becoming up to a year anniversary
because, yeah, we had this youngwith birthday last year.
Anyway, yeah, back in the day,guy Sebastian was an Australian.
Fin Barnett (51:15):
Idol.
Pat Spellman (51:15):
I know who, guy Sebastian guy, sebastian, one
Australian Idol, and the guythat he, the guy.
The guy.
That guy beat in the finals aguy called Shannon.
Oh, cut the south of podcastbecause it's fucking terrible.
Jet Shannon, all had a song.
What about me?
Oh I know it's all.
That's a classic, yeah, sowhenever I go, that's long about
(51:36):
him not winning.
I don't know if it's his song,but he certainly sung it and
made it famous, at least for me.
And so yeah, whenever I go.
You know what about me?
It is a fair Shannon all Unlessyou're 28 plus.
You're not getting thatreference.
Fin Barnett (51:50):
Okay, well, now I know, that Shannon was on this
side.
That song I'm definitely I'mgonna make that like the
highlight of the Just you'resinging.
Anyway, moving on no well, IFeel like that's, that's a good
chat.
Pat Spellman (52:04):
Do you feel?
Fin Barnett (52:05):
that's a good chat.
I'm happy with that.
That's good, I got a lot out ofthat.
Pat Spellman (52:09):
I hope so.
Fin Barnett (52:09):
Are you so?
Pat Spellman (52:11):
I reckon that's like yeah, kind of their mics
down, we're good.
Fin Barnett (52:14):
We're good.
First three people to DM "Pat's Shout.
Oh boy, you won.
There you go, pat Shout for afree Ellen Ave poster.
Fin Barnett (00:07):
You see, no one's gonna DM, but Whatever, yo yo,
just before we get into it, Ihope you enjoy this chat as much
as I did with Pat.
It was really good.
We talked about a number ofthings, but rather than telling
you what we talked about, here'sa couple of snippets, just so
you see that whole conversation.
Stick around for the wholeconversation.
There's a whole lot of gems inthere.
(00:27):
Here's a couple of snippets.
Enjoy, and then we'll get intothe show.
Check.
"If you can't say it in asentence, it shouldn't be said"
I killed myself trying to dolike one every single week for
like the first year that I didit.
Pat Spellman (00:39):
"I'm gonna tease everyone.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'stomorrow.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'snow and then, yep, I'm gonna
tell them it's still there.
Hold up, I'm gonna teaseeveryone.
Fin Barnett (00:48):
"Well, I'm gonna tease you.
I'm gonna tell you it'stomorrow.
And then now it's tomorrow, I'mgonna tell you it's here, it's
right here.
I'm gonna tell you it's stillthere, it's still there.
Go back, listen One of thethings that you were telling me
when I was like you know, like,how do I get this podcast going
again, how do I get it better?
Like, what do I do to make it?
What's the difference between,like this, getting nothing, and
(01:08):
yours getting everything?
And you said something to meand it was so we're back.
Yeah, for another round.
Thanks for the invitation, bro.
I appreciate it.
I wanna talk to you today abouthow you grew a podcast over.
I'm gonna just guess like500,000 listens, but I think I'm
wrong.
Pat Spellman (01:23):
No, yeah, it's north of that, but not quite a
milly.
Fin Barnett (01:27):
We died Not quite a mill year but there's a
potential return, so I wannatalk about that.
And then just, you know you'rea wise man and an even better
storyteller, so any stories youwanna fold it along the way as
well, so tell me.
Touch projects, podcasts, touchwhat I got.
Oh, sorry, no, so you grew thisthing to over.
(01:48):
North of 500,000 listens.
Yeah, like when did you startat Y, how, who, what we went.
Pat Spellman (01:55):
All right, well, give the very high level summary
right.
So we started in 2020.
I wanna say 2020.
Fin Barnett (02:01):
It was around the pandemic first lockdown.
Yeah, 2020 was the first,because that's when this thing
started too.
Pat Spellman (02:06):
Yeah, and I think I've shared.
I think I talked about this onyour first one, but I've talked
about this often.
I started the podcast becauseof my I was a little pissed off
at how lacklustre the comms werein terms of touching general,
and there was so much going onbut very little information.
I now know, having spent a yearworking there, that it's a lot
(02:29):
more complicated than justsaying something or sharing
something.
So if I could go back and tweakmy critique, I probably would,
and.
But basically we started thepodcast so that I could ring Joe
, who is the CEO of TNZ, and askhim questions that we were all
dying for the answers to,because that's the only way I
knew how, which was just to havean upfront conversation.
(02:52):
At that time I didn't work forhim and I could ask whatever I
wanted.
But it turned into a bit of a Idon't know a lockdown kind of
survival mechanism for a lot ofour touch people, not just in
New Zealand but actually allaround the world.
And I guess that's how it grew,because we'd start getting more
and more people on and theywould share their ficcato, how
they're feeling around thelockdown, but equally their
(03:14):
stories too, and then that'ssort of how we grew it.
So it started off as almost abit of an online protest like
give me info because I want toknow what's going on.
No one knows what's happening.
And then we just grew it into,you know, almost like an audio
community grapevine kind ofthing, where people were able to
sort of share stories ofmotivation, inspiration,
education, information, likeeverything about touch lived on
(03:35):
the Touch Project podcast, whichI guess by share fluke it was
never really the intention, Ididn't see it lasting any longer
than sort of six or sevenepisodes, but then, but it was
weird because it did right Likehe had, the first chat Was the
first one with Joe.
Yeah, he was the very firstepisode, mr Spray.
And then was it Shaq?
Then we got Shaq on becauseShaq's like my boy and I've
known Shaq way before I was evenanything in touch, not to
(03:56):
suggest that I am, but you knowwhat I mean, like I knew Shaq
before You're the MC man.
Yeah, yeah, I knew him beforethen I knew Shaq and then I had
that yarn with him and thenbasically I just worked through
my contact list.
Fin Barnett (04:07):
Yeah, just a bag of water, a fin up there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah afins next.
Pat Spellman (04:10):
And then I took to Sha, you know, and then we got
our mate from Ozzy.
Here's a funny story.
We had Joe on and Joe was ableto share some sort of context as
to what was happening in NewZealand.
And that must have caught windoverseas, right, Because then I
get a DM from someone who nolonger works there anymore, but
she worked at Touch FootballAustralia, asking if there was
an opportunity for us to sharesome stuff around what's
(04:32):
happening in Australia.
And then we get Jamie O'Connor,who's the Chief Executive of
Touch Football Australia, and hejumps on and uses it as an
opportunity to share somecontext as to how he's having a
Saq 30 people and all this otherstuff.
So it almost turned into a bitof a news feed.
And then, I think, ironically,it became so obvious that this
was a pretty cool way of doingit that TFA started their own.
(04:53):
So many of that, you know,killed her.
That's sort of how it started.
So I think, in answer to yourquestion, how did it grow to be
as popular or whatever it was?
It was just the people, right?
I never made it about me, itwas never about my story because
, to be fair, I don't reallyhave one in touch.
It was always about the peopleI was talking to.
You know their connection tothe sport, Sport and general.
(05:14):
I would sometimes ask questionsthat everyone really wanted to
ask but, for whatever reason,couldn't or didn't have the
means to ask those questions.
I was able to do it, so it wasa good time.
Those were the days I feel like.
Fin Barnett (05:28):
I feel like real good podcasts or just like like
there's this one dude I listenedto and he's like he's just like
a regular dude Well, he'spretty successful as well, but
he just asked like he's justlike straight to the point.
And when you're straight to thepoint, it's kind of refreshing
to have someone who doesn'tdance around stuff.
And this is like everyone'sthinking this.
Pat Spellman (05:46):
If you're lucky enough and I say lucky because I
feel it's actually luck to bein a position either powerful,
influenced or, you know, sostrong that you can do that.
I had it for a minute, you know, like there was a very finite
time period where I was able toget away with asking whatever.
(06:07):
I wouldn't dare do it now, butyou know, back at that time you
could plead ignorance or forwhatever reason.
I was a volunteer and I was hotproperty for a minute, and so I
was able to just laugh and getaway with asking stuff that if I
asked now I'd get a look.
Fin Barnett (06:22):
Yeah.
Pat Spellman (06:23):
So I think everyone has the opportunity to
do that if they time it.
You know perfectly.
And then some people there'sjust so much control, clout or
power that they can do it for aslong as they want.
Fin Barnett (06:35):
Yeah.
So I know all of those people,certain people, yeah, certain
people can't, but I think, ifyou like, I try to channel that
like just even at work and stuffas well, just even in general
Cause, like if you want to knowan answer, like, why don't you
just ask?
Pat Spellman (06:45):
Yeah, and I think often for me.
Anyway, I'll ensure that I'vegot at least enough value that
people will forget that I'veoffended them, or they will
forget I've pissed them off, orthey'll forget that I have
provided them with enough truthfor them to be annoyed.
Yeah, I'll ensure that at leastmy resume is strong enough for
(07:06):
them to go.
You know what, pat?
You're at deck for asking methis question, for whatever
reason, be it, it's a stupidquestion, or they're offended
because it's true, and if theydon't answer it, that's up to
them.
But at least I'm not going toget in the ship for asking you.
I now know how to time thosequestions really well.
Fin Barnett (07:20):
Yeah, you've got to have like a bit of time and to
say, very strategic in how youask these things, yeah, which is
sad, right, but that's thereality.
It comes from experience.
So, like being in a situationwhere you ask it and then show
it, you're like, oh, I shouldn'thave asked that.
Pat Spellman (07:30):
Yeah, and I don't have those moments anymore
because I'm now old enough andyou know, arguably more mature
that I can determine whether ornot I think someone's going to
be offended by what I've justasked them.
And seldom will I go there, andif I do, I probably don't care
what you think anyway.
So and I've changed man, Idon't do that anymore.
Fin Barnett (07:54):
Yeah, it's nice to channel a little bit of it Like,
and as long as you do it withgood intent, I reckon as well as
like the resume and thewhatever behind it if you do it
like good intent.
Pat Spellman (08:04):
Intent is the key to everything, right?
Yeah, so if your intention isto generate a new work in Com so
you'll know this if your intentof the headline is to generate
clickbait, then of course youhave to accept what comes as a
result of that, right, that'sthe risk that you run, and
sometimes it'll pay off.
The reward will be immense, andsometimes you've just created a
minor catastrophe and you needto now navigate those waters.
(08:26):
I think this every time I turnon my con and open my mouth at
Nationals or you know, orsomething it's.
Am I going to?
I don't know if I'll tell thestory, but I got my very first
ever complaint about me at theNationals just gone.
Oh yeah, totallyunsubstantiated, absolute
(08:46):
rubbish.
She was wrong, you know, butyou know it was formalized and
it turned into an actual thingand I was so offended because
there is a million things thatyou can complain about what I do
, say or act, or you know how Iconduct myself and what this
individual you know was harpingon about.
It was so wrong and there wasso much proof.
(09:09):
And then, anyway, the reason Ishare that is because often you
just can't win, bro, like youcan be, so you know, so it is
what it is.
Fin Barnett (09:18):
That's true, though the intent, though it's Intent.
Pat Spellman (09:20):
sorry, that was the point.
Thank you for circling that.
I got you.
Fin Barnett (09:23):
I got you.
Pat Spellman (09:24):
The intent is so important.
Fin Barnett (09:25):
If your intention is to be, you know, calm and
lovely and respectful, then howit's received is their business,
not yours Intent and beingyourself, yeah, well at work,
like so I'm, I'm like anaccounts manager now, as I was
telling you Congrats, this is togo up.
Pat Spellman (09:42):
Yeah, I like that.
Fin Barnett (09:43):
I actually came in.
You know I've worked my way upthe steps.
Pat Spellman (09:46):
I'm with it.
Fin Barnett (09:47):
You know, I came in as just like a little bit of a
grunt work.
Each day, you know, rock up towork In the trenches, yeah, in
the trenches.
Hey, what do you need me to dotoday?
I'll set this up.
Do this research.
Pat Spellman (09:57):
I'll find some.
Fin Barnett (09:59):
Did that.
And then you know, anopportunity came along to do a
bit of email for one of theclients.
That went really well for them.
Pat Spellman (10:05):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (10:06):
So it is, and then a bit of strategy started coming
in.
Pat Spellman (10:09):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (10:10):
And then Bit of chat started coming in, as I you
decent at talking to theclients.
Well, you know, here I amtalking to the clients having
coffees and shaking hands, baby,that's right.
Pat Spellman (10:20):
And you know, every letter was created one
step at a time.
My friend, in order to climb it, you have to first build each
step.
Amen, you have, but I just cameup with it now.
Fin Barnett (10:27):
That's kind of you can just quote that yeah, no,
but how do you climb up a ladderonce they've had a time?
Once they mean but yeah, solike when I, when I talk to
clients, someone said somethingto me the other day of the like
sometimes you're just like sounprofessional, but like only
you can get away with it.
Yeah, as in, like you kind ofact a little bit like off,
offbeat, like, but that's justme being myself and it cuts
(10:51):
through the character yeah.
And I feel like I'll feel it outwith the client.
You know you can tell whethersomeone's still bro right.
Yeah, A hundred percent.
You can tell with their sir brothe room mate, or man or boss
or you know, like just hello andsir name, yeah, and like you,
as you build the relationshipyou can feel it more.
Pat Spellman (11:09):
Have you ever read the room wrong?
Not yet, because someone cutsyou and they should have been
Not yet.
So I can Not yet.
Yeah that they will come.
Yeah, even when I read the roomwrong.
Fin Barnett (11:17):
Yeah, I'm sure it will Like I don't think I'm.
I definitely don't think I'minvincible.
I've got a million things tolearn but no one's invincible.
I've definitely found that, youknow, like if you just be
yourself, be authentic, goodvibes, good intent, like no one
can really harm me.
Like there's that thing aboutLeBron, and like when people
started to hate on LeBron whenhe got to the height of his game
and someone was like, oh sorry,so the dude lived up to all the
(11:40):
hype that was impossibly put onhim at the age of 18.
He like did everything thateveryone said that he wouldn't
be able to do or that if hedidn't do he was a failure.
He like got with his highschool suite, never been in
trouble with the law or thatstuff.
Like he just like he tries hardevery day.
Like what do you hate him for?
Pat Spellman (11:58):
I quote that I don't know who said it, but I
and if I was ever, you know,tough enough to get a tattoo, it
would probably be this one.
It's that you know, if you liveyour truth, no one can hold it
against you, and so that'salways a, you know, personal
kind of you know, for car ormotor or whatever.
That I've always gone by isthat you can call me whatever
you want, or you can critique mymahi, or you can say I didn't
(12:20):
deliver on whatever, but you cannever, ever suggest that I'm
anything other than true tomyself and who I am, and you
know.
Whether or not you love that orhate it or whatever, that's up
to you.
I don't really I've grown to notcare, because I think everyone
cares to a certain extent whatpeople think of them, but it's
actually I've just accept thatthat's what people think of me
(12:40):
and I, and I also accept thatoften emotions are momentary and
then you can change them.
So if someone likes you orloves you, or doesn't like you,
or hate you or whatever, that istotally within your power to
care and or not, and then,equally to your actions will
determine their reaction.
So I'm just me, and some peopleabsolutely adore me.
(13:04):
And then there are some peoplethat go, oh this big mouth, you
know chabalard, you knowwhatever, and I'm so totally
okay with it and it's yeah, Idon't know, bro, like I didn't
used to be, like it used toreally impact and affect my
emotions, just how other peoplelike thought of you and stuff.
I always wanted to be the mostliked guy in touch, like that
(13:25):
was my thing.
Fin Barnett (13:26):
What was that like when you were doing like radio
and then like the podcast andstuff, or like being at RSM,
like did you, did you have thatthroughout those phases?
Like or?
Pat Spellman (13:37):
Yeah, I don't know .
I am for me.
Again, like I said, I've alwaysstruggled with never impossible
syndrome.
Why I don't think so?
Because I potentially havealways believed in my abilities.
You know, like I've alwaysknown that, that I am capable
and I'm very confident andsometimes I will struggle with,
(14:00):
you know, perception or you knowlooking around and not seeing
anything that reflects or remindme of me.
That was always.
One of the struggles at RSM wasthat I was the only Maori person
in a staff of 70, or at leastthe only, you know, visibly
vocal Maori, because you cannever guess someone's fuck up
(14:23):
upper.
But that was always a strugglefor me is that if I, if I can
see it, I'll be it.
And if I look around and Idon't identify as someone in the
room and I'm the only one inthe room that often unfairly on
myself, I'll, I'll weather theweight of responsibility of oh
well, now I have to be Pat theMaori or Pat the Cook Island or
(14:44):
Pat the Pacific guy person and Ithink that's just something I
need to work through myself.
But I don't know.
I've always struggled with thatis that you know people's
perceptions of me and it wasonly very recently, like maybe
this time last year when Irealized he actually has nothing
to do with me.
If I live my truth and theyhelp and they hold that against
me, then that's on them, not me.
Fin Barnett (15:05):
I've been trying to do a better job of that myself.
I think the last few years,especially like I've really come
into like being comfortablewith who I am.
Pat Spellman (15:13):
Yeah.
Fin Barnett (15:14):
Something that, like I think it's like from the
past, when I was doing thepodcast.
I get so like a little bitstressed and like nervous about,
just, for example, this podcast, like when it comes out like
people are going to, like youknow, think some kind of way, or
is it not going to go well, oris it not going to be.
Like I messaged Tyler andCourtney they are the ones who
are on the podcast last week orthe other week or whatever, yeah
(15:34):
, and I miss them.
I was like, oh, I was a littlebit nervous when I put this out
because I was like you know,what are people going to think?
Or like, is it going to be aflop?
I'm stressing about something Ican't control, which I don't
like, and I've been working onand I'm way better at it, but,
for whatever reason, now thatthis podcast back like I'm
stressing about things I can'tcontrol again, but I messaged
(15:55):
them, I was like that's how Iwas feeling, but I just listened
to it back and like, regardlessof like how it's received, I'm
really happy with it, like itwas actually real good.
Pat Spellman (16:05):
You know, I guess that comes with you know being a
profile.
You know this sounds edas, butbeing a public, you know profile
, you know someone who has aprofile and be clear, anyone
that puts themselves out thereis a, is a pro.
You know, as someone who is,who is confident or brave enough
(16:25):
to share enough about them tocomplete stranger, is worthy of
being championed.
Because you know, if you aregenerous enough, brave enough
and and you know, I guess,confident enough whether you are
always confident or you findconfidence in that moment to
share a little bit about you andprovide value for others, then
(16:45):
I think you deserve to bechampioned.
And I think that's the beingnervous about something or being
, you know, on the edge abouthow something is going to be
received, comes as a part ofthat process of finding their
confidence to want, you know,want to be, you know, received
as respectfully, as you hope,people.
Fin Barnett (17:07):
Well, it's like having confidence in like what
you know you've done and cancontrol, like, for example, this
podcast.
I can like have a good chat andthat's all I can control doing.
I can like make, like I can do,cool descriptions or whatever,
and that's all I can controldoing, but I can't control how
other people would see it.
Or like at work.
I remember at the start of theyear like we all get along mean
(17:28):
at work and stuff, like actuallyI love my work.
It's preface that just claim.
Preface.
But I remember at one pointthere was just like a bit of a
back and forth and I remembergoing to the meeting being like
I'm so comfortable to like nottalk back but like to back
myself against anyone becauselike I know I do my job and I
(17:49):
know I do my job really well.
Yeah, like so I'm quiteconfident in myself and the
things I do that I can control,like for example in that work
setting, so that If someonejudges me or someone like
perceives something, somethingI'm like oh well, you know what?
like I know I did a good job, soI can back myself on yeah, yeah
.
I guess it's just trying towork on that, to have that with
(18:10):
the podcast.
Did you like?
You literally like?
Hundreds of thousands of peoplehave listened to the podcast
and it's not about you, butyou're the one facilitating all
of the chess.
Did you ever think about thisin relation to that?
Pat Spellman (18:23):
I Don't know.
That's a good question.
No, probably not.
Probably going back to my timein radio, like I was never the
superstar of the show, thatmakes sense.
Always Scotty Pippin, neverMichael Jordan.
Good example.
Fin Barnett (18:37):
You know, yeah, great I was, I was.
Pat Spellman (18:41):
You know, most times I was the anchor of the
show and if you're familiar withhow radio works, as you left
someone, like you know,old-school hip-hop and R&B that
seems to be light on flavor, andthen you'd pan to the next
person and then they'd come inand that you know I would pitch
the ball.
I would never be the one thatsmacks it out the park, and so
my expectations have always beenhigh, based off of the fact
(19:05):
that I'll never have aconversation with someone that I
don't Genuinely believe hassomething to share and has value
to add or is going to makesomeone who listens make their
life better.
There's just no conversation.
A few of them had less of thatin it, you know, in terms of
their episodes, but everybody Itook the time to reach out to
(19:26):
and lock in and have thatconversation with, I felt could
add value and it like it goesback to radio.
Like you know, as the anchor,it's often your job to set up
the play of the voice break, andI would never go into the, into
the show and set up voicebreaks that I didn't believe had
an Mj moment.
(19:47):
There's just no point, becausethat my job is to ensure
consistent value and so I don'tknow.
I think One of the one of thethings for me over the last
little bit is that I've alwaysbeen so super confident of my
abilities, but often the key tobeing a really good team player
is understanding that noteverybody is as confident in
(20:10):
their abilities and their valuethat they bring in so often.
Regardless of how much value Iknow I can bring the team, my
Achilles is often been Notlooking around to see whether or
not other people can keep up orwhether or not their value is
akin to mine, and so as long asI finished the race, I was
totally happy.
But if it's a baton relay, thenthat doesn't really make sense.
(20:35):
You know you have to be a teamplayer to ensure that everybody
is at that standard, so do you?
Fin Barnett (20:40):
ever develop like like tips or tricks to to help
out other people?
Yeah, like with the podcast orlike with the radio, you know,
you have to facilitate, like yousay, like I can't just be you,
that does well, I think, for me,bro trick.
Pat Spellman (20:54):
No trick.
But what I did and I got betterwith this over time and I'm not
perfect by any means and I never, you know, I never profess to
be perfect, but what I've, whatI've become better at, I believe
, is just taking a moment,taking time and actually
assessing the job andunderstanding what needs to take
place and Work, work backwardsfrom the I think I've said this
to you before.
(21:15):
I always work backwards from agoal, but generally what I would
do is work backwards from thegoal and how I would achieve the
process, and now I'll often nowvillage mentality, everything.
So I'll work backwards from agoal but ensure that I will
focus on the stuff I'm reallygood at and then I'll go okay,
finn's really good at that, I'mgonna reach out to Finn and
Finn's gonna help me with this.
Or Jordy's really good at this,I'm gonna reach out to Jordy,
(21:36):
or Liam can help me with that,or whatever.
I've just become really good atSurrounding myself with really
good, competent people that aresuperstars in their lane and
then ensuring that Every lane ofthe pools got a swimmer.
Fin Barnett (21:49):
That's lucky, a bar man.
It's pretty boring race ifyou're the only one in it, but
oh, wow sometimes you just hitme with the lines they just,
they just so crisp they throw meoff my rhythm just like that
you know that one.
I think I can break down thepodcast success to perfect
timing.
Yeah with some great execution,yeah, good names in the sport
and Great facilitation of a chatwhich makes it enjoyable enough
(22:12):
to listen to that someone saysweet.
I want to come back like one ofthe things we talked about with
this podcast.
It's like what do people comeback for each time?
And we had that what is it?
Well, now it's about chats forbusiness and people like
listening to other stories fromother people that have been in
business, been there, done itall, been there, doing it like
that.
Listen to, like their stories,listen to like their tips, their
(22:34):
learnings, their mistakes.
Pat Spellman (22:35):
I think remember the young that we had like.
Why I listened to your podcastwas at the time, which you've
obviously.
You know there's been a pivotright or you've been a pivot.
It's been like a focus, it'sbeen like a same energy of like
good people doing good things,because it was young young
Professionals at first, rightyeah yeah and I think at the
time and I think I shared thiswith you the reason I would
(22:58):
listen to Ellen Ev, particularlywhen I was at out, because I
said I already seem at the timewhy I would listen to our words
I received, why I'd listen toEllen Ev, was to get Inside as
to how someone teenies youngerthan me, because you were how do
you know 23, so you literallyten years younger than me, right
?
Yeah, so I would listen, just sothat I'm in In sync, I guess,
(23:18):
with how people ten years, myjunior thinking and acting and
moving because that's still kindof important in the world that
I, that I work in terms of comms, trends and whatnot.
Fin Barnett (23:28):
But yeah, I think it.
Yeah, Well, I think like peoplelike, for example, with the
touch project podcast, it waslike a way to stay on the pulse
and like, for this example aswell, it's like Every everything
in business these days.
Like I was having a chat theother day with Sam, I was like
everything a business is digital, like everything is like this
podcast, there's like onlinemarketing, there's online, like
(23:50):
just websites in general, andlike some people are either in
that world or they're not, buteither way, like you need To be
in that world and either way,like there's things that people
are doing in that world that,like you can take for yourself
Whatever you're doing as well.
So I kind of like that's likethe angle that this is going
down now.
Pat Spellman (24:05):
Nice, I like that.
Fin Barnett (24:06):
It's just like being focused.
Yeah, you know, but like thereason that your things exceeded
was all of the things that Isaid, like it was good execution
, like perfect timing, goodnames, like everyone in that
niche was like sweet and youwere the only ones.
You had no competition as well.
Pat Spellman (24:22):
And then when?
Fin Barnett (24:22):
there was competition like respectfully, I
think you were Still the numberone.
Pat Spellman (24:27):
I think the other thing too, bro, is you have to
make it easy, because often we,in terms of people that consume
media, there's so many options,right, there's so many options
and so many different avenuesone can take that it needs to be
as easy as possible, and so Iguess we really.
I really wouldn't have startedthe podcast if it could not have
(24:49):
been on every single platformstraight away.
So it was super important thatwhen we dropped an episode, it
was on Apple and Spotify and youknow I, heart and Google and
everything straight away.
You know at the same time andso often, like I and sometimes
what you can control thatbecause things would get dropped
(25:10):
at different times or whatever.
So sometimes an episode wasalready on Spotify for like
Three hours before it, you know,before it popped up on Apple or
whatever, and so I justwouldn't tell anybody until
everything was ready.
Oh yeah, because I didn't want,like if Finn listens via Spotify
and I listen on Apple, and thenI put something on IG or saying
(25:32):
on Facebook or whatever, andsaid you know yo episode with
you know Pat's online now andthey would define open in a
wasn't there.
I really didn't like lettingpeople down.
The irony is that we let peopledown a lot Because you know
guests pull out or audio trashor Someone you know gets told
they can't do it or whatever,and we've already told people.
(25:53):
So I got, I got.
I got really good at recordingit, editing it, getting it ready
, asking if they're okay andthen tell people.
So like this next.
You know, Whatever, we're gonnacall it the return.
I've told maybe you know justoff sidebar how many people in
(26:16):
your close friend, oh man, yeahso I've hungry oh.
Fin Barnett (26:19):
Yeah, okay, that's a good thing, yeah yeah, that's
a nice political answer, thatone anyway.
Pat Spellman (26:28):
So no one knows, and I'm not gonna tell anyone
because I've just learned, bro,like you got to keep it easy and
you have to, you have to justnot let people down.
Fin Barnett (26:40):
Hmm, I don't know when you do, but Well, something
I've like learned with flatessentials and with this podcast
is that when technology is,bring it back.
I Looked at the Instagram theother day and I was like yo,
this was fire, like I wasrunning.
That I can't believe it.
Pat Spellman (26:54):
I wish I was as well off as I am now, back then
because I just want to boughtten boxes of you just to be,
just to be the man, because Iremember when I'd buy them off
you man, I'd have to budget forthat shit.
Yeah, I Respect it still tothis day.
I would buy one supporteverything I do.
Fin Barnett (27:09):
I'm literally sitting at a table looking at
the L and F poster that's infront of you.
Pat Spellman (27:13):
I don't even have one of those.
You can have one.
Fin Barnett (27:16):
I honestly don't even have one of those.
Yeah, maybe you always ended afriend then, so anyways.
Pat Spellman (27:24):
Can you sign one for me before you go?
Fin Barnett (27:26):
yeah, I actually will get cool if you want to you
can have one and you sign onefor me.
Pat Spellman (27:29):
I'll put a proper solar friend L and F comm.
Fin Barnett (27:32):
I don't even know if you know.
Yeah, there's the one there onthe shop.
Anyways, are they?
Yeah, I think so.
I just haven't made them asprominent because I was being
weird to do it.
Pat Spellman (27:41):
So before now, first three people to DM, I'll
buy the one.
Fin Barnett (27:44):
Yeah, there you go.
Pat Spellman (27:45):
Okay, first three people to DM first three people
to DM.
Patch out, I'll buy you one.
Fin Barnett (27:52):
There you go, patch out for a free Ellen have
posted.
Yeah, can help you so no one'sgonna DM.
But Anyways, what I've learnedwith both both of them is that,
like, when something can gowrong with technology at will,
yeah, and I have had to teachmyself to be so much more
patient and have way lessexpectations and Pressure on
(28:13):
myself to deliver something.
So, even with this, I was likeI I'm taking Pat's approach, I'm
not having a set schedule likewhen I do them, because, because
that's what I do, I killedmyself trying to do like one
every single week for like thefirst year that I did it, bro,
and I can pretty, either thequality would be trash, what I
(28:34):
would literally like run myselfinto burnout because I was
forcing an episode and I was.
You know, like the Wi-Fi wasabsolutely trash so it wouldn't
upload, and then I was stressingabout our YouTube's not up but
the the audio is.
Or you know, like, oh, like, ittakes me like five hours to
edit this.
I could just not edit it, butit won't be as good.
Like there's so much that cango wrong with first technology
(28:57):
touch project.
Pat Spellman (28:57):
When we first did it I was dropping two a week
right yeah, at the peaksometimes three lockdown.
Nothing else to do, nothing at100% right, and that was just
not sustainable.
Yeah and then I started puttingreal unnecessary pressure on
myself and I would, you know,take it real personal when
people would say no, they don'twant to episode, which is
(29:19):
totally okay, because noteveryone was a certain to about
touch.
But I'll be like, what do youmean?
And it wasn't about.
You know, like I did, I nevertook a moment to appreciate,
like it's not, like Iran can doit, but I would take a personal
and I and in reflection I nowknow the reason I was taking it
personal, because then I wasn'table to hit my own, your own
(29:40):
unnecessary KPIs of two a week.
Fin Barnett (29:43):
You got to have no like, unless it's your actual
full-time thing that you aredoing and like that's your thing
, I reckon yeah you can't putpressure on yourself.
You got to understand it'sprobably gonna take like an
extra two days and you think andyou also got to remember my old
man said this to me he's likeyou gotta remember that you're
the only one waiting on it.
Like realistically, that's,that's a, that's a good one.
(30:06):
You're the only one waiting onit, so I like this massive
meltdown once.
Pat Spellman (30:09):
I like.
Fin Barnett (30:13):
Essentials or the podcast.
Yeah, and I went to him.
This was like I was.
I was going through a bit of aphase at this point.
I was struggling like mentally.
I was like it was a little bithard, hmm, and.
I was like dad, like this, likeit's all going like the hell,
like it's it's going down, it'sgoing to shit, like it's not
working, you know.
And he was like what's wrong?
I was like, well, we said wewere gonna do this and like it's
(30:34):
tomorrow and it hasn't happenedand we're not gonna be able to
do it and I don't know how we'regonna do it tomorrow.
And he's like how many peopleare waiting on this?
I was like I don't know, butlike I said that we would do it
and I don't want to not meetwhat I said.
He's like so where's thepressure coming from?
Is anyone else like likepressuring you for this?
I was like, nah, he's like justyou.
I said yeah, well, he's likethe only one waiting on it.
(31:00):
Is you like?
Pat Spellman (31:01):
shut up boy.
Fin Barnett (31:01):
Yeah, it's all your expectations.
You know like sorry.
Pat Spellman (31:04):
I like that.
What was the question?
I quit again, cuz I only onewaiting is you.
Fin Barnett (31:08):
Come on, mr Barnett .
Come on now.
Old man's got a couple of barslike that as well, when you edit
this, you're gonna laugh.
Pat Spellman (31:14):
You haven't got headphones on, but I
accidentally pushed one of thesebuttons and it was the wrong
button, and you're gonna laughwhen you edit it, is it like a
sound?
Effect.
Yeah, and it was like, and itwas supposed to be like one of
these is like that one.
Oh, I dropped that.
(31:35):
This is my new thing on thepodcast.
Whenever anyone says you knowsomething like dope, I'll be
like.
Fin Barnett (31:42):
Anyway, it's moments with Pat, yeah yeah,
yeah, you get like the silkysoft.
Yeah, but that's like I knowthat I like things I had to like
.
Learn that and yeah.
That would have been the samefor you going from like two to
three a week and lockdown versuslike going back to, like To go
back to work, you know yeah, howdare.
Pat Spellman (32:02):
We has to go what it like sidebar.
How good was locked down inhindsight.
Fin Barnett (32:07):
Honestly, I loved it.
Yeah it wasn't even inhindsight.
Pat Spellman (32:10):
I'm like, did you go back to mum and dad?
I was at mum and dad's.
Fin Barnett (32:13):
Yeah, already.
Yeah, I was on the farm everyday.
I was over it yeah, the firstone was it was at mine.
The second one, I was atchoppers, and then the the third
one like 2021.
Yeah, we were in.
Pat Spellman (32:28):
Auckland for a lot you know?
Yeah, that was the firstlockdown because I knew everyone
what, like you know, there was,that there was dope.
I love the first one yeahthat's just in there.
Fin Barnett (32:38):
Like that was cool, everyone was in it together,
man.
Pat Spellman (32:40):
Second one I'm like, oh yeah, I could do
another one got me out of a fewthings.
Actually, the second one Ithought you went a conference
and I really didn't want to goto it and I was like, yo, that's
a nice one.
Third one, Bro, ruined mymental health.
I mean the worst thing was that, like everyone else except
Auckland, and we were justsitting there like watching the
world and the world's Just keepgoing on.
I'm doing walking around theblock and pocket on like you
(33:01):
know, there's nothing else goingon.
I lost a bit of weight duringthat.
Fin Barnett (33:04):
I wonder what it would be like Because I know
people like listen to this fromlike Aussie and UK and you know
America and stuff as well,they're probably listening to
this thing.
Oh, he didn't even have a bad,or we did a bit.
Anyways, lock lockdowns aside,I think like I've got a.
I kind of already knew this,but it's nice, like pick it
(33:25):
apart in the conversation aroundaround the podcast.
Like, yeah, one thing that I IDidn't appreciate until recently
was how good of a job you didat pushing it using, like social
media.
Oh yeah, did you have?
I Feel like I've asked you thisbefore and I feel like I was
like what was your strategy?
What was like, what was yourplan?
(33:47):
Did you have, like contentpillars?
Did you?
like you know, like I feel likeI've asked you something.
You just like wowed me withyour answer.
But did you have a plan withsocials like that?
We, we being deliberate.
Were you just being off thecuff like oh?
Pat Spellman (34:02):
No, there was a little strategy, but it wasn't
like I didn't have.
It wasn't a plan, I just had amental strategy.
This ironically, this issomething I've been told as one
of my you know career red flagsis that I'll often just it's in
my head and then I'll just gowith it.
Don't need to write it down,don't need to tell anyone, just
trust that it's in my head.
No, you know that they don't.
(34:24):
He gets you so far for so long,bro.
Honestly, for me there was noreal plan.
It was just like I knew whereeveryone was.
We were all on our phones.
We're all sitting at home.
There was no strategy.
It was simply like, yep, I'mgonna tease everyone.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'stomorrow.
Yep, I'm gonna tell them it'snow.
And then, yep, I'm gonna tellthem it's still there.
And here's a highlight, here'sa quote Hold, up, I'm gonna
(34:49):
tease everyone.
Fin Barnett (34:51):
Well, I'm gonna tease you.
I'm gonna tell you it'stomorrow, and then, now it's
tomorrow, I tell you it's here,it's right here.
I'm gonna tell you it's stillthere, still there, go back
Listen.
If you missed it, was thatstories post just however or
both.
Pat Spellman (35:02):
Like you know, yeah, stories wasn't a huge,
like huge, huge thing as it isnow.
You know, now we've got, likeyou know, as you know, there's
almost campaigns designed, youknow, primarily for stories,
right without there having to bea great post where it's.
Fin Barnett (35:14):
Back then we were still kind of, you know, toying
with that idea such a good wayto look at it, though, like I
actually have never even lookedat it like that consciously,
like I think, I think you couldlook at stuff I've done and I'd
be.
I would have done that, or likesomeone else might be listening
.
I've done that, but I've neverconsciously been like oh, tease
them, tell them it's like almostTell them it's still there.
Pat Spellman (35:34):
It's a radio thing , right so?
Fin Barnett (35:37):
Oh my god, I think that's the gym.
Pat Spellman (35:38):
So that's the gym next time you're listening to
the radio, next time you'relistening to the radio and if
you so happen to be in a car foryou know a 30 minute period if
you're in traffic Just don't gospot a fire, don't listen to
podcasts or whatever.
Just chuck your favorite radiostation on ideally a music one.
(36:01):
Yeah, I could see the edge,flavor, mind, whatever, yeah
listen to the radio and listento how they start the air and
then how they work their wayaround a half an hour.
I'll start the hour by teasingyou.
This hour your chance to win$15,000.
I'm gonna play a new song fromDiddy.
Up next it's the new DJ Khaledsong.
Justin Bieber on flavor.
Oh, my god right, it's likeyour back with tea.
(36:22):
So we've teased you.
So this is what's happeningthis year Don't go anywhere.
Then the next one it's aroundlike up next, your chance
$15,000.
I told you before we'll do itnext.
Don't move.
He's DJ Khaled.
I'll play the song Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna do the competitionRight now.
Give me a call.
I went hundred for flavor.
Your chance to win 15 grand.
I need caller for ring me now.
(36:43):
Yeah, and then three songslater.
If you missed it, I gave away$15,000.
Don't worry, we'll do it againtomorrow.
More deeds at flavorconz.
So that's the this year 40minute pan right in a radio
world.
So Coms is just radio.
Radio it's just comms.
Like that's what I would do aguy.
It's.
We confirm the guest Finn.
Boom, we've locked it in, we'verecorded it, it's done.
(37:04):
I'm gonna tease everybody.
Hey, you know that that hunk ofa man on the wing.
Fin Barnett (37:09):
He's coming up.
Pat Spellman (37:10):
He's that and everyone's like you know, and
often that would be the postthat got the most engagement
because it peaked everyone'sinterest, oh shit.
Fin Barnett (37:19):
No good, no good really.
Pat Spellman (37:21):
Tony, try, holy shit.
And then tomorrow, like that'slike I, sweet, don't miss it,
this is before reminders on IG,right, so they didn't have that
at the time and then we'd postit online now listen, boom.
And then I'll wait about a day,two days maybe, but it would
always be the cycle, because youdrop it.
Wait a day.
Have a look, have we hitthousand yet?
(37:42):
We're good, I had sweet.
Fin Barnett (37:44):
That must be so nice man.
Pat Spellman (37:46):
It got it, it got um, it was unhealthy for a
minute.
Fin Barnett (37:50):
That's me one day one.
One day maybe I.
Pat Spellman (37:53):
Put you know.
The thing is, though, I alwayswanted to be better than the
episode before mm like I wanted,which was not sustainable once
he started hitting the, thebigger names, hmm, say yeah,
yeah, yeah, but some we wouldlike, um, we wouldn't, we would
have, um, I did a, I did.
The guy from FIT, the old fella, yeah, that was the dad like
(38:17):
and I don't mind telling themthat like it was me, my mom and
you know the neighbor thatlistened to that like no one
even listened to it straightaway.
They all went back and mighthave been by accident came up
next and you know, apple orwhatever.
Um, there was actually so muchvalue in that, um, in that
episode.
Fin Barnett (38:34):
Yeah, he talked about eligibility.
Pat Spellman (38:36):
You know what's happening around the world with
COVID, blah blah.
And it wasn't until, like,people went back because that
run out of other Episodes tolisten to, and then we back and
listen to him.
Keep forgetting his name Oldfella.
Nice guy hold me off.
Actually, in the end fun fact,if you go back and have a listen
to it there's a bit at the endwhere I'm, like you know,
rounding it out.
Thanks for your time.
(38:56):
Oh good, oh good.
Hey, pettifig, you just stay onthe course whenever check with
you.
And then I was so lazy, Ididn't need it to that.
Fin Barnett (39:03):
I was like yeah, you sweet.
Pat Spellman (39:04):
Sorry, I stopped pushing recording.
The next one was like how doyou blah, blah, blah.
It was pretty funny.
And then the bro tip, you know,mrs, he was like what do you
want to talk to you about?
At the end that I was like, oh,you wanted to give me the
what's up.
And even even now People willlike say, oh, what do we want to
talk to you about?
Oh, that's because I left it inyeah, it's gonna annoy me now
(39:24):
if I don't get his name.
Fin Barnett (39:26):
Yeah, well, I'll let you come back to it.
Pat Spellman (39:28):
That's like Bill Kerr, bill Kerr, there you go,
sorry, sorry, anyway.
Fin Barnett (39:35):
I listened to the radio.
This I did this a couple monthsago.
I was thinking about, you know,bringing the podcast back.
I was listening to the radiobecause, like, when you think
about it, the radio has beenaround much longer than podcasts
, long time and it's stillaround Mm-hmm, and like they
have hella money, like it's all.
It's all fading and fading, andfading and fading.
But, like you know, you listento your everyday podcast and
(39:56):
it's like, oh, like, if it'sremotely successful, there might
be a podcast if it's hellasuccessful.
It's like, oh, like, you know,like, go buy my merch or my
course or something.
Yeah like you listen to, likeyour average radio stations,
like literally.
Like you said, we've got fivetickets to RMV.
Call us like and we're doing itevery day this week.
Pat Spellman (40:14):
Yeah, and I was like the way they market on
there is like so good yeah it'sum, it's pretty lessens the tech
from radio, you know, inBecause prior to um, even I
might have even been before, butlike radio or newspaper, can't
remember which one I want to sayit's newspaper.
But radio is like oh gee, hmm,like Jesus was on the radio,
(40:37):
like you're like yeah, it's beenaround long, a long time ago.
Yeah, like, and so, even in asituation like you know, one day
I'll end up back on the radio.
I can just feel it, you know,it's just like my purest love.
You know, before touch therewas radio.
Yeah, and one day I'll you know, I'll figure it out and get my
own show or whatever.
But I don't know.
I just feel like podcasts andnow just little radio shows.
(40:59):
I listen to morning shift everymorning.
I was gonna say, listen tomorning show, honey, cuz like
obviously would you?
Fin Barnett (41:04):
they kind of are like doing kind of the radio
thing, because From an outsideperspective they left, they left
radio.
Yeah there's a whole whateveraround there and now they're
doing their own radio.
I listen to it because um.
Pat Spellman (41:18):
Obviously, one of my best mates works there.
I don't think it worked.
I don't know if he still workson the show, but he was part of
it, the very beginning side outof yeah, it's my boy, but I love
it.
I think it's great.
They've managed to remove allof the things I hated about
radio, sitting through fourminute a break, songs I don't
like, and they've just given youthe good bits, just the good
bits, and that's the.
(41:38):
The irony is that Radio worksreally well when you, when you
focus on the good bits, becauseyou make the good bits, make the
music and the ad's bearable.
What what the morning shift hasbeen out of do is just focus on
the good bits.
How they'll integratepartnerships and advertising
into that, we'll see.
I'm advertising it.
(41:59):
I don't know, not that I'veheard.
Oh was he?
But you expected to pop up atsome point.
Right, I got a manitizer, youknow, million downloads or
whatever it is Like it really ohno surprise, yeah, yeah, so.
So it'll be, it'll be dope.
Fin Barnett (42:11):
What, what would you other like takeaways from
radio be like?
You got the teaser and tellthem it's tomorrow, tell them
it's here, tell them it's stillthere, like is it what other
like that you can think ofMarketing stuff, how they do the
ads and and all that, or Ithink the big thing for me radio
is if you can't say in thesentence it shouldn't be said,
and You're you know.
Pat Spellman (42:31):
You can then choose to go in depth on it,
like breakfast radio, which Ionly did for about a year.
You can indulge in A paragraphwhere a sentence would do right,
because people are moreinclined to listen longer on
breakfast, because it's morepersonality driven.
But generally this is why mycomms is always very succinct
and I'll, you know, flesh it outa wee bit more where where it's
(42:55):
necessary.
But my rule generally is thatif I can't get it out in a
sentence Then the message needsto be refined and that's very
much a.
There's some radio DNA and that, so you should be able to say
everything you need in asentence.
Because of the for the largepart of I was ready for about 18
years and large Chunk of thattime I was on drive in the
(43:17):
afternoons, which is a littleless purse, so driven then Then
breakfast, and then I was alwayseither by myself or I was on a
two or three man or Person,because we can't see many more a
three person show, and my jobwas always just like I said.
I was the pippin right.
So I was in the the funny guyor the Dom Harvey or the
(43:39):
whatever like it was.
I was always the Mike Peru.
I was always the person whostarted the break.
If we're fletching Vaughan, I'mdefinitely fletch your Vaughan,
right.
That's the the reality of mytime in radio.
But that was the thing.
Is that generally it's my jobis to is to find Synergy and
make things succinct.
So if I can't say in thesentence it's too long the fact
(44:01):
that you hooked them with thesentence, and if they want more,
then you tell them, but yousell them on the sentence.
Fin Barnett (44:08):
Yes, bars, yeah, that's like arm.
There's this, there's thismodel.
Like eight, like Ada, eitherwould be like attention,
interest, desire, action.
Oh yeah, that's like one ofthose, like there's so many of
those models or whatever butI've been doing this bit of a
copywriting course recently thatI've actually been really
enjoying.
It's like a nice thing to dobefore I go to be a dish night.
Pat Spellman (44:27):
Oh yeah.
Fin Barnett (44:28):
I personally think I'm a decent copywriter.
Pat Spellman (44:30):
Yeah, nice.
Fin Barnett (44:31):
I don't think I'm a good copywriter or a great
copywriter, but I don't thinkI'm bad at it either.
Yeah, but it's something Ireally like, so I was something
I want to get better at, so I'llget better at it.
Pat Spellman (44:40):
I like that.
Fin Barnett (44:41):
And it's exactly that, like say in a sentence or
hook them in or whatever, andthen build on it, if you want.
Well, if I do it with a podcast, so, like winners are, it's a
sentence, but the podcast is 40minutes.
Pat Spellman (44:51):
I don't even know how long this chat is well, how
I found is that it's all thedetails and that you know devils
in the detail, whatever it is.
But for me it's always.
You sort of start every keypoint of the yarn with a bit of
a, with a bit of a hook, everynow and then, depending on what
your interpretation of someone'sthat you know attention
(45:12):
spinners, you should really hookthem in.
So when they see the very, hookthem back in.
So I don't know you'll noticethis when you go back and edit
this, but even now and then I'vedropped in a bit of a I people
are drifting off.
Now they don't care, but we'resaying I'm gonna drop something
now.
That's gonna get them to go.
Fin Barnett (45:29):
Oh shit a little bit longer, once you cut them
all out when you go to it.
I feel like we've really gotlike, honestly, the last 20
minutes and I've actually beenlike that's been real, I've been
loving that.
Pat Spellman (45:43):
But I think and I've certainly been guilty of
this, but it's a generationalthing, older people will do this
that they're very word countheavy, right, because to them
you give value in volume.
So if you give someone heaps ofsomething it's worth more, but
actually it's not.
You know, if I can say it in asentence, I'm still charging you
(46:05):
what it would cost if I gaveyou a thesis, because it doesn't
matter, whereas I've worked nowfor some people who love to
indulge in a yarn and Oftendoesn't need to be.
And you know what my thing isthe more I say, the more I'm
lucky to get myself in trouble.
So if I can find a way to saysomething, yep you know, in a
(46:25):
sentence or less and stillprovide value, then absolutely
I'll do that.
but I've sat in a room where Ithought Did you really say that,
bro?
Like, and it's always Third,fourth, fifth paragraph of the
yarn yeah, they know they startoff with three lines Perfect.
End it there, bro, you're done.
No, no, he'll keep going, orshe'll keep going, or they'll
keep going.
Yeah and it's like, oh, if you'dstopped at paragraph one, you
(46:49):
you know we would have beensweet here.
Or if you just got up and saidwhat a real honor and a
privilege it is to be in thisroom today.
I really appreciate it.
We're looking forward to givingyou out.
Well, thank you for letting usbe here.
We promise you the utmostrespect and we can't see, and
can't wait to see on the fieldtomorrow.
Now we can't.
Could do, done run.
Yeah, oh, bro, you know how manytimes I've been in a room where
I thought it's not what I wrote.
(47:10):
Yeah, so for me, bro, it's likeSay it in a sentence.
Fin Barnett (47:17):
I reckon the perfect amount is just enough.
Pat Spellman (47:20):
Yeah, you know, though.
Yeah, um, you know, I know, Iknow when I've said enough and
if I look around Now that I cansee, if I look around and
they're like you know, drag iton a little, jiminy, that's when
I get myself in the shit.
If I've got a pad, something alittle bit longer, because I
don't prepare to pad, yeah, likewhen I say pad, I mean you know
(47:40):
, stretch it out, stretch it out.
I never prepare for thatbecause I think, like my breath,
you're not ready, you knowready.
We're gonna stand there andlook fucking awkward because
it's your fault.
Yeah that's fair enough, butthat's the problem.
See, I'm a team plan now, so Ipad old pad.
You know what a beautiful dayit was something like that.
Fin Barnett (47:58):
There's, um, there's one more thing that I
want to ask you about.
Well, I actually I want you totalk about it.
Yeah one of the things that youwere telling me when I was like
you know, like how do I getthis podcast going again?
How do I get it better?
Like what, what do I do to makeit?
What's the difference betweenlike this getting nothing and
yours getting everything?
And you said something to meand it was.
(48:19):
It was like you make it aboutthem.
You're like, I don't make itabout me, I make it about them.
Yeah like everything on thepodcast, everything like on the
socials, especially like I don'tknow.
Like if you could touch on thatand just like what you mean by
that and how you Do that, mainlyin a social sense because you
kind of done it for the podcast,they'd be pretty valuable well,
(48:40):
it's all in in the statement,right.
Pat Spellman (48:42):
Like I, my approach with the touch project
was was never about me.
It had to be about the people Iwas talking to and with and
alongside Selfishly, becausethese stories are way better
than mine.
So, in terms of creating adrawcard, well, that's your
drawcard, right.
So, in order to grow reach andimpressions and connection with
(49:04):
people, give them something towant to reach toward, and if
they loved you enough, yournumbers would tell you you know,
and if they were interested inyou a lot, then your numbers
would be astronomical, right.
And that's what I found is thatPeople love the fact that, for
the most part on the podcast,90% of the of the content is the
(49:27):
people, and I've actually beentold you need to jump in more
and it's like no Bro.
If they want to share that, andlet them share it as we've
found.
Sometimes editing is reallyimportant, but make it about the
people, because they're thedrawcard and your goal is to and
this is my approach to MCingthings too.
So I've said them watch someterrible MCs who think that they
(49:50):
are the stars of the show andactually our job is to glue
things together in betweenaccents, to get out and Make
people smile, but don't makethem laugh, because then they'll
forget the jokes of the nextperson.
And if you make them laugh, Ineed a little bit of laughter
because we need them to hold onto some laughter for the next
person.
So I don't know, if your job isto be a superstar, that you
(50:12):
shouldn't be the host of apodcast.
That's always been my sort officcadil.
I don't know if that's gonnaresonate with anybody else, but
it's really worked well for me,and often, too, people will
share more if you let them andif your Entire approaches.
What about me then?
(50:34):
you know it's a bit Shannon Olyand you need to sort of focus on
, but you're too young for theirreference.
But you get it now InsertShannon Oly.
I've said that before, though Ihave.
Fin Barnett (50:47):
I said that line with you before.
Pat Spellman (50:48):
Yeah, Shannon oh, was the guy that just for the
kids?
Millennial, is it millennials?
What's the one after Cuz?
Fin Barnett (50:53):
I'm not what I am, I'm just me, I'm just getting
selfish.
Pat Spellman (50:58):
All the gym now's back in the day, because I'm 32,
33 next week, so we must becoming up to a year anniversary
because, yeah, we had this youngwith birthday last year.
Anyway, yeah, back in the day,guy Sebastian was an Australian.
Fin Barnett (51:15):
Idol.
Pat Spellman (51:15):
I know who, guy Sebastian guy, sebastian, one
Australian Idol, and the guythat he, the guy.
The guy.
That guy beat in the finals aguy called Shannon.
Oh, cut the south of podcastbecause it's fucking terrible.
Jet Shannon, all had a song.
What about me?
Oh I know it's all.
That's a classic, yeah, sowhenever I go, that's long about
(51:36):
him not winning.
I don't know if it's his song,but he certainly sung it and
made it famous, at least for me.
And so yeah, whenever I go.
You know what about me?
It is a fair Shannon all Unlessyou're 28 plus.
You're not getting thatreference.
Fin Barnett (51:50):
Okay, well, now I know, that Shannon was on this
side.
That song I'm definitely I'mgonna make that like the
highlight of the Just you'resinging.
Anyway, moving on no well, IFeel like that's, that's a good
chat.
Pat Spellman (52:04):
Do you feel?
Fin Barnett (52:05):
that's a good chat.
I'm happy with that.
That's good, I got a lot out ofthat.
Pat Spellman (52:09):
I hope so.
Fin Barnett (52:09):
Are you so?
Pat Spellman (52:11):
I reckon that's like yeah, kind of their mics
down, we're good.
Fin Barnett (52:14):
We're good.
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