Penny Fry

Penny Fry is someone really special. She's someone I've known for as long as I can remember. She has walked through a lot in her life, but through every hardship, she has held onto her faith and kept trusting God. She's someone who consistently shows kindness and honesty in all that she does, and she has a genuine love for people. So, without further ado, sit back, relax, and let's get right into it.

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hi everyone, I hope you're having an amazing day.
I'm your host, Eli Jennings, andwelcome back to Elm with Eli.
If you're new here, this is a podcast where we sit down with
people in the church and hear their stories, how they came to
know Christ, what God has done in their lives, and the moments
that have shaped their faith along the way.
Every episode gives us somethingwe can take into our own walk
with God. Today's guest is someone really

(00:22):
special, someone I've known for as long as I can remember.
She's walked through a lot in her life, but through every
hardship, she's held onto her faith and kept trusting God.
She's someone who shows kindnessand honesty in all that she
does, and she has such a genuinelove for people.
So without further ado, let me introduce you to my friend Penny
Fry. Penny was born in 1956 to her

(00:53):
parents David and Shirley, and grew up in Perth with her
siblings Anne, Sue, Katie and David.
Her early life was anything but simple.
When she was young, her mum was in a serious car accident that
left her in hospital and rehab for a year and her dad had to
work Interstate to support the family.
For a time, Penny and two of hersisters lived at Onesley
Children's Home. Even through all of that, Penny

(01:14):
always knew one thing. Her parents loved her and she
understood that she was only there because they couldn't look
after her at the time. Her Nana, her mum and even a
tiny prayer book she kept under her pillow all helped shape her
early belief in God. She learnt 4 prayers by heart
and recited them every night. They were simple habits but were
the foundation of her faith. As she got older, Penny kept
searching for God in her own way.

(01:36):
At just eight years old, she even visited churches on her
own, trying different places andlearning whatever she could.
She didn't always know exactly what she was looking for yet,
but she genuinely wanted to knowGod.
After finishing high school, Penny reached a really
significant moment, standing on a veranda, crying and wondering
what life was really supposed tobe about.
At university, God placed the right people in her life at the

(01:56):
right time. Penny began studying for the
Bible seriously for the first time and finally understood what
it truly meant to follow Jesus. Eventually, she made the
decision to give her life fully to Him through baptism, a
decision that changed everything.
Since then Penny's life has taken her through so much,
finishing her studies, marrying her best friend Graham and
together raising three children who have since blessed her with

(02:17):
7 grandchildren. Over the years she and Graham
have moved from Perth to Canberra where they now worship
here with the Canberra Church ofChrist.
Penny works as a teacher in Flexible Education, spending
part of her week teaching young patients at the Canberra
Hospital School and the rest working with young people at the
Youth Justice Centre. At home, they've opened their
doors to a young family from church, Junior Jonah and the

(02:39):
energetic little girl Zia, something Penny describes as a
real blessing. And looking back, Penny can see
God's part in it all, leading her, protecting her, and helping
her become the woman she is today.
So with that, sit back, relax and let's get.
Right into it. Welcome to Elm of Eli.
Stay tuned. How are you going, Penny?

(03:19):
I'm doing pretty well actually. Had a really good day.
Yeah, relaxing for like lots of appointments, but relaxing.
And yeah, we just had our lovelyfriends Jr. and Jana and Zia
come home, but Zia's having a sleep, so I haven't even seen
them yet. So they were at Cassandra and
Alvin's place looking after it while they were in New Zealand.

(03:43):
So yeah. Well, thanks so much Penny for
making the time to do this. I really appreciate it.
I feel really honoured that you asked me.
I think it's really lovely. Nervous but honoured.
For those who might not know you, would you mind introducing
yourself and sharing a bit aboutwho you are?
Penny. Sure.
I'm was born Penelope Jane Heppingstone in Perth and I was

(04:08):
the first child of David and Shirley Heppingstone.
And as a kid I was born 1st and then two years later I had a
sister, Anne. And then nine months after Anne
was born, we, Oh no, 11 months we had Katie.
And then three years after Katie, we had Sue.

(04:28):
And then three years after Sue, we had David.
So there were five of us all together.
Nine years between myself and my, my little brother and I
would sum it up by saying how myearly memories are of love and
chaos. Life was incredibly
unpredictable and we didn't really have a stable home for a

(04:50):
while. But as a kid you don't even
think about that. You just go with the flow.
You've got mum and dad that loveyou, so that was cool, yeah.
Thanks for sharing that, Penny. So yeah, I'd love to start back
in your childhood in Perth. What was that early life like
for you growing up? Well, we didn't have a lot of

(05:11):
money. I didn't know that.
So initially we lived with my grandparents and Dad was away at
sea on the ship and he was away for like 6 weeks at a time and
then back just for a short while.
So we loved meeting him at the ship.
Mum used to dress us all up and take us out to meet Dad when the

(05:32):
ship came in and that was prettyamazing.
So yeah. And we as kids, we just occupied
ourselves a lot of the time Mum had had.
Yeah, she was in a position where because of having had a
car accident, she had a broken back and a broken neck and was
in hospital for a long time, a year.

(05:55):
And so when you're only four, a year is 1/4 of your life.
So I was away from my mum for 1/4 of my life.
And my little sister Anne was also in the home with me.
And our younger sister went to acouple of friends of Mum and
Dad's who were desperate to havechildren and couldn't.

(06:16):
And so they looked after Katie. And that was tough for my mum
because she knew they couldn't have children.
And they wanted to adopt my little sister.
And mum felt really, really horrible because she didn't want
to put my little sister up for adoption.

(06:37):
So there was a lot of emotions in our house.
Yeah. But it was very loving.
Lots of hugs and cuddles and affirmations.
Yeah. Can I ask what it was like for
you kind of not having your parents around for some time and
living in Wansley Children's Home with your sibling?

(06:57):
Yeah, it was really weird when the accident happened and I saw
mum lifted up into what would have been the ambulance.
I just saw her going into this big hole and I thought she must
be dead. And because we didn't see her
for that long time, I didn't quite understand whether she was
alive or dead. So I'm the eldest and in the

(07:21):
home they told me when my littlesister was cheeky and running
around without her nappy on thatthat was my fault because I was
the big sister and I need to make sure that my little sister
behaves. So when you get that message for
a year, that tells you that whenthings go wrong in life and

(07:43):
people mess up, it's my fault. And that was not a healthy thing
to take forward. So I always took responsibility
and thought everything was my fault.
But there were some beautiful people.
My grandmother's friend, Auntie Lily, used to visit, and Dad

(08:06):
would visit once every six months.
And I remember him pacing on theveranda and I could see him
through the windows, but I wasn't allowed to go and see him
until I'd finished my lunch. And it was pumpkin, and I hated
pumpkin back then. And I was crying seeing my daddy
outside and not being able to go.

(08:28):
And she said if you don't eat this pumpkin, you can't see your
daddy. And I remember crying and she
was pushing the pumpkin through my teeth.
So that's a strong memory, and it's not a pleasant one.
But yeah, look, it was tough. But we just figured, you know,
we were loved and we were there.We knew it wasn't Mum and Dad's
fault. It was just life.

(08:50):
Yeah. Because we didn't have any
adults that we could really go and cry with, you know, that
that's really tough. And I don't remember getting any
cuddles except from my Nana whenwe got gate leave sometimes to
go and see her. And Grandpa and I, yeah, it was
Auntie Lily used to give us a hug.

(09:10):
But I grew up in a really affectionate family as a little
one. And then to not have that
affection, that physical affection and affirmation for
nearly a year was it was really tough.
But having to look after my little sister became the
priority. So I looked after her and there

(09:33):
were these two kids that we wereplaying in the yard with.
And they said, oh, we have to gobecause there's some people that
might come and adopt us. And they were like 7 and 8.
And I remember I saw them come bouncing back into the
playground. And I said, so are you going to
be leaving? And they said, no, they didn't

(09:53):
want us, we're too old. And I remember thinking, my
daddy wants me. You know, there were people out
there that loved me and wanted me back, and my heart went out
to those two little kids where someone didn't want them.
So yeah, we got food. We had plenty of food, lots of

(10:15):
places to play. I don't remember any toys.
And I remember we went to a circus one time and I was
terrified because there were biggaps between the seat and the
next row down, so you could easily fall.
So I remember clinging to everything along the way.
I don't think Annie came to thatbecause she was too little, but

(10:36):
yeah. So you think that environment
had a really big impact on your your childhood?
Yeah, it taught taught me that Ihave to step up and I have to
take responsibility and I'm the one that has to fix everything.
I have to make it better for everybody.

(10:59):
So you went through some pretty big challenges early on.
Your mum's accident, your dad working away and living at
Onesley Children's Home. You've already pretty much
answered this, Penny, but how did all of that shape you as a
child? It actually made me not show
emotion, so I decided to protectmyself.

(11:22):
I would feel it but I wouldn't show it.
And so my poor mum, when she gotout of the rehab she spent, she
said it was nine months before Istarted to cry when I was upset.
And she remembers gently shakingme, saying Penny just cry like
if I'd hurt myself or I was upset about something.

(11:46):
So yeah, that that meant I sort of held in all my emotions and
didn't want to express anything because it was too hard.
So she helped me recover from that.
Yeah. Thank you.
Even in the middle of a pretty chaotic childhood, you said your
mum and Nana taught you about God.
What do you remember most about those early moments of faith,

(12:08):
Penny? Well, I remember that Mum used
to drop me at a Sunday school and when I was, I don't know,
before I went to Onsley even, and I quite liked it.
I didn't quite understand what it was all about, but I love
just learning things about somebody called God who wasn't

(12:30):
like a person. He was powerful and cared about
us and that was really powerful for me.
And when I we got gate leave to stay with Nana, that's when she,
you know, she talked about God as well.
And she was just quite gentle. She was didn't have a lot of

(12:52):
energy. She was pretty old, but she was
a really gentle Nana. And my granddad, her husband was
so affectionate and so lovely. And he was actually a politician
in WA But I always when, yeah, Iremember granddad well.

(13:12):
He was just beautiful. Yeah, and he didn't talk much
about God, but Nana did, and shetaught me, gave me a book of
prayers, and that was really good.
Really, really cool. Yeah.
So I used to recite them every night.
And there's one that I remember now.
This night I lay me down to sleep.

(13:35):
I pray my soul the Lord to keep if I should die before I wake, I
pray the Lord my soul to take and while I didn't quite get
that last bit, I knew it meant God cared for me now in this
life and care for me after I die.

(13:57):
And I think that and there was nothing in that about works or I
had to be good enough. You know, that prayer just says
I want to be with God and I wantyou to look after me.
And I think that was one of them.
And I just remember that one themost.
And what do those prayers mean to you back then?

(14:17):
Well, they gave me peace becauseI could recite them every night.
So, you know, doing a routine can put you in a good place.
But it also meant this world is bigger than just me.
It's bigger than the people in my life.
It's bigger than everything. And there's AI didn't understand
the word spiritual, but there isa place where God is, but he's

(14:43):
also got his eye on us and he wants to look after us.
And even though we had an accident, I never thought of
blaming God for that ever. I just thought, no, that's just
something that happened. And mum always said things
happen for a reason and we don'talways know what that reason is.

(15:04):
But she said I've been able to learn how to walk and, and, you
know, get back home out of hospital and out of rehab.
And she was amazing and she madelife fun, you know?
Yeah. I'm really glad that you got
that early influence of faith inyour early life, Penny.
Do you think you would be where you are now if it weren't for

(15:26):
those kind of moments? I think they really influenced
me because they set me on a pathof looking for the something
else. There's something bigger, you
know, there's something more than what we can see, touch,
taste, you know, a smell and, and all of those sorts of
things. And here there was something out

(15:47):
there and all I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't articulate
it, but I knew my life wasn't just about me and my family.
And that was really formative. So back then it gave me comfort,
but there was a different effectas I aged and thought about that

(16:08):
a bit more, yeah. Thank you.
At just eight years old, you were visiting churches on your
own, trying different places each week.
I'm really curious what struck that curiosity and made you want
to do that in the 1st place. What were you hoping to find
when you were visiting those churches back then, Penny?
I wanted to go to a place where people would talk to me more

(16:30):
about God. So I knew I could pray to God.
I knew that he was there and he cared about me.
But I didn't know much about God.
I knew about Jesus because mum had told me the story of Jesus
and Mary and Joseph and the Christmas story.
And I remember thinking, I want to know more.

(16:53):
I just want to be out there and see what these places say.
And there were quite a few. There were probably about 3 or 4
different churches around our neighborhood.
They were about a 10 minute walkaway.
So I just decided to go there. Yeah.

(17:13):
And I used to dress up because Iknew when you went to church you
were meant to dress up. It was, you know, 60s back then
and you 1960s and people dressedup for church.
So I put on my best dress and waddled up there on my own.
Yeah. What did you notice, I guess, in

(17:35):
those different churches, Penny?Like, I guess I'm also curious
what led you to the Church of Christ family later in life, But
as you were trying those different churches back then,
what were you noticing and what did that mean for your future?
Well, some of them were so routine.
And it's not that you can't build a faith from routine, but

(17:59):
they seem to do the same thing and teach the same thing every
week. I love going to the kids Bible
classes because you could actually delve into the stories
a bit more. And I actually got to act the
part of Mary one time at the Christmas play.
I was probably about 10 by then so and I thought this is really

(18:21):
cool and mum came and watched and and I just wanted to know
more about Jesus, more about God, more about how all the bits
fitted together. And so I yearned not just for
the knowledge but the life of this person called Jesus.
I really wanted to know about him.
Yeah. Thanks Penny for sharing that.

(18:45):
Then after school you hit that moment on the veranda where
everything just hit you at once.What was going through your mind
that night? Well, that night it year 12 is
an end to something. It really is the culmination of
in WA at the time, it was 12 years of primary school plus
what we called kindergarten, which was actually preschool.

(19:07):
So it was a pivotal moment, stepping out from being a kid at
school to the rest of your life.And it loomed large.
And back in the day, to get intouniversity, you had to do a
series of exams in the last few weeks of school, and they were

(19:28):
worth 100% of your course mark. And so I sat 11 exams in 2 1/2
weeks. Some of them were three hours
long, and that was grueling. And I knew that if I didn't do
well, I wouldn't get into the UNI I wanted.

(19:50):
And I did. And I got a scholarship and that
was amazing and I was thrilled. And you sort of feel that
euphoria and then you think, butwhat's the big deal?
You know, I was trying to be grateful, but it just seemed so
meaningless. And I had a part time job in a a

(20:14):
shop and a post office. And like I said, I had lots of
friends and, and I, I just, it just felt empty.
It felt really empty. And I was always a happy, happy
person. But really dwelling on this, it
just, it just really worried me.And what worried me more is no

(20:38):
one else got it. No one in my friendship circle
got it. And years and years later, I
was, I know I didn't mention this to you before.
I was chatting to a good friend,Cordelia.
I mentioned her later and about 15 years ago she and I got
together in Perth and she said, I know I said that you were

(21:03):
crazy believing about God in God.
But she said, I think you were right.
I think you made the good choiceto believe in God.
And she said I've had to rethinkit.
So I look back and think they what were relishing freedom,
freedom, freedom, you know, and we can vote and we don't have to

(21:26):
do what our parents tell us. And but I just thought this is
what's the point? What's the point of life, you
know? Yeah.
And that worried me and I felt Ithat was a really down lost
moment. The party was really noisy and
everyone was like I said, we were, we were underage, but you

(21:49):
know, everyone was having a glass of champagne because it
was that's what people did. Then they gave the kids a small
glass of champagne and I had some.
And then the clamour just got tome.
And I was thinking, I remember walking out on the veranda in
the cool. It was summer, but the veranda
was cool, beautiful gardens at my friend's place.

(22:10):
And I just wanted someone to understand me and maybe share
that feeling of what's the point?
I didn't feel suicidal or anything, I just felt this seems
meaningless. You know what, what's special
about this? And because I didn't get that, I

(22:34):
tried to dwell on, well, I've got friends and they care about
me. And so I ended up, as I said, I
felt really alone. Really, really alone.
And then went back into the party and just tried to you fake
it, you know, You just think I'mOK, I'm OK.
Yeah. That opened the door really wide

(22:55):
because I was searching for whatdid matter.
I just couldn't find it right then.
Thank you Penny, moving into your uni years, God really put
the right people in your life atthe right time.
How did those friendships lead you to studying the Bible?
I think that the thing I look back on is how loving and

(23:17):
courageous those people were that God put in my life.
You know, I really think to havesomeone, you know, get to the
the lecture early. So again, what happened was I
joined, we joined a whole lot ofclubs, including a volunteer

(23:39):
group. Delia and I did, Delia was not
interested in Christianity at all.
And but again, we, it was a way we could serve the community.
And to me that was pretty special.
And I ended up with a young man who wasn't a Christian
initially, but then became a Christian.
And I didn't know what that meant.

(24:01):
And he talked a lot about the Bible and I believed in the
Bible. I thought it was from God.
I thought it was true. And I also thought though, that
he seemed to embrace the Bible and life with God in a very
different way. Like it wasn't just a belief

(24:22):
system, it was it was his life. His priorities were set.
And I hadn't experienced that. Before.
And I thought this person is really serious about, I didn't
think the words their faith, butreally serious about God and

(24:43):
maybe I should find out more. I think what some something
that's really special is, you know, as opposed to being raised
in a Christian household, you really chose your own faith
journey from such a young age with all these different
influences around you. And like, you know, even
standing on that veranda, just like thinking about, you know,

(25:04):
what's the meaning of life and stuff like that.
It really had that impact on you, you know, which I guess I
don't really hear that much because most of my interviewees
on here are like raised in a Christian household, so.
Yes, yeah, yeah, it is different.
So like, I'm glad that my parents gave me the choice.

(25:24):
I'm glad I had a mother who had a faith, and it was useful to
have a father who didn't. So I was forced to look at both
perspectives, and I think the faith won, yeah.
Yeah, sorry you were raised in aChristian household of I mean,
like, I guess you made more of adecision with your own faith

(25:47):
after your parents kind of went very present for a while in your
childhood. Yeah, no, you're right, Eli.
Like we didn't go to church as afamily.
We never did that. And yeah, Mum, I just wasn't
trying to correct you. I'm actually thinking yes, I
wasn't. I look at the household that,
you know, people like you have been raised in.

(26:08):
Very, very different from mine. Very different.
Our house was a really welcominghouse, but it there was a lot of
drama. So if a child in the
neighborhood had run away from their home, chances are they
were at our place because they felt safe.
So there are a lot of beautiful values there.

(26:31):
We often, or not often, but we occasionally had police cars
outside our house looking for runaway teenagers.
And, you know, dad was away, butmum just said I want them here
to be safe. Then she'd let their parents
know where they were and the police would come.
So I feel that even though mum Idon't think was a Christian

(26:52):
then, she did have a strong faith and the upbringing was
really different from a lot of families I know now, yeah.
And did your parents continue their faith?
Did they stay as Christians or did kind of you, you know,
brought that upon yourself and kind of continue that for

(27:13):
yourself, you know? Well, it was interesting because
I was baptized in 1974 and in September and when the beginning
of 75 started, there was a sermon and Mum came with me and
it was all about burdens and laying your burdens on Jesus and

(27:38):
not, you know, he. He can look after us, He can
take the burdens. And Mum was so touched she came
forward and wanted to be baptized.
And so she was baptized at that point, and she felt so burned
with life and the pressures on her and everything like that.

(27:59):
And for that, yeah. And then she studied with
someone, actually, Willie Randall.
She studied with Willie for a while.
But then mum's life got really busy, so she didn't keep up the
studies. But yeah, she tried to build her
faith. And much, much later in her
life, she said to me, I want to come back to God.

(28:23):
So I know, I know. And I always think, and and she
said, you've been a Christian for all this time.
And I look at your life and I look at how you manage things.
And I want that peace. And I want to come back to God.
Yeah. Wow.
Right. Yeah.

(28:46):
That's really special. So, shifting the conversation a
little bit, as you started learning the truth for the first
time, what stood out to you the most about what it really means
to follow Jesus? What struck me is having come
out of the children's home whereeverything's my responsibility
and I have to fix it, the toughest thing I think was

(29:11):
learning to trust God and say, first of all, I can't fix
everything. It's not my responsibility and I
have to leave more things in God's hands.
And I found that really, really hard because I wanted to fix it.

(29:32):
I wanted to know how God was going to fix it.
So becoming what? As I studied the Bible, I wanted
to be baptized. I wanted to know everything
about baptism, including what you wore and how it was done.
And I I talked about that. But that idea of placing your

(29:52):
life in God's hands, I found that I should have found it
comforting, but I found it really scary because I'm a
control freak. I'd like to know.
Yeah. So that that was so my faith had
to grow. And I guess when you and was it

(30:15):
your younger sister, did you andyour younger sister go to the
ones the. Yes, Yeah.
So you were saying that you kindof felt that you, I guess, had
to look over everyone and kind of felt that kind of
responsibility and it might havebeen a bit stressful for you and
God kind of helped you get over that.
Is that right? Yes, he has.

(30:35):
And he's put Graham in my life. He's also thought me learn to to
not feel like everything is my fault.
Yeah. And I think that there was some
so many verses that really struck me.
But one of them is about the idea that it's by grace, as it

(30:56):
says in Ephesians, by grace, you've been saved through faith.
And I had a choice about believing.
So that was really comforting. And it wasn't up to me.
It's not of myself. It's the gift of God.
It's not a result of works, because then I could boast, but
I can do nothing to save myself except cling to God.

(31:19):
So that passive Ephesians is such a wonderful reminder to me
of that. Yeah, thank.
You. Yeah.
Thanks so much for that. And then you eventually made the
decision to be baptized. Could you walk us through what
led you to that moment? Yes, I I like people and I don't

(31:39):
want to disappoint them. So I had to do a bit of a self
analysis to think, am I doing this because I don't want to let
people down? People have invested in me, they
have studied with me. So Marg Jennings, she wasn't
Jennings and gave me my first Bible, but her good friend Nan

(32:01):
Runzerman at the time she studied with me week after week
and I thought if I don't do this, she's wasted her time.
But then I thought, but I believe it.
So it's not about wasting her time.
I need to be sure I'm doing it for the right reasons, that it's

(32:24):
because I'm convinced and I loveGod, not because I'm worried
about letting someone down. I also loved the people at
church, and I thought, I can't do it just because I like them.
So I spent time the night beforewith Delia and she tried to talk

(32:44):
me out of it. And I think that was a really
important conversation because the more we spoke and she said,
oh, that they're all religious types.
Like you don't want to be like them.
You know, you're going to miss out on stuff.
And I was saying, but what, whatam I going to miss out on?
And this is what God is telling me.

(33:06):
It's true. And yeah.
And then the next day I spent time with my lovely non
Christian friends and we all went to the Perth Royal show.
And afterwards they said, do youwant to join us tonight?
And I said, what are you doing this afternoon?
I said, actually I've decided I want to get baptized this

(33:27):
afternoon. And as I said, it was a
Saturday, I didn't have a car, Ihad to get a train and a bus to
get to church, to the building. And there was a workshop on at
the time, so I knew there'd be people there and there were no
mobile phones to tell them that I was coming.
So when I work walk through the door, I now know how excited

(33:53):
they must have been that I walked in and it was Phil James
who had been picking me up from church.
And so he saw me there, played it really low key because he
didn't want to embarrass me and overwhelm me.
And there were all these other people there that I didn't
really know. So he said, did you want to

(34:16):
still be baptized? I said yes, that I'm too
embarrassed with all these people here.
I don't really know them. And within a really short space
of time, the word, like less than 5 minutes, the word had got
around that I wanted to be baptized, but I didn't want to
do it with a big crowd of people.

(34:38):
And they all left because they did not want to be a barrier to
me. And looking back, the love that
they had for my me and my soul was bigger than their own
delight, you know? So there were only about 6
people left when I was baptized.And I was happy with that.

(35:00):
I thought, that's wonderful. Yeah.
It was really special. Yeah, awesome.
Did your friends kind of have a Christian influence on you,
Penny? You mean the ones at school?
Yeah, yeah. We all grew up in the same
education. Like we went through schooling
and it was very religious school.

(35:22):
So we did have Chapel every weekand we had an assembly every
week where scripture was read. And but we kept thinking, it
just seems so predictable and the same verses we used, and we
just felt we should jazz it up abit at school.
So, yeah, I ran a service sort of one time.

(35:45):
And I mean, it was really awkward when I look back and I'd
be dying of embarrassment. But we wanted to make it real.
We wanted to talk about how God is there for when you're feeling
your loneliest and your lowest. And we, we played a current pop
song, Simon and Garfunkel's. Yeah, yeah.

(36:08):
And, and my friend played it on the on the guitar and, and
everyone thought it was really radical.
Like it was so radical because we had a deaconess at school and
she used to run or that, or the principal who was had studied,
you know, to be a preacher. One of those two would normally

(36:29):
leave the Chapel. And so it was really different
having 16 year old girls to leave the Chapel.
Yeah. But I'm really proud that we did
it, looking back, because he wanted to make it more relevant
to the cohort of kids who were going through teenage years and

(36:49):
feeling a bit uncertain about where they belonged.
And it's like, God is there for us, you know?
Yeah. And were the people who watch
your baptism? Were you nervous?
No, I was embarrassed with everyone there.
But that was a bit of social anxiety, I think.
And knowing how loud I am now, you probably find that hard to
believe, but I actually was pretty shy.

(37:12):
And I was nervous that, you know, am I going to wear the
right stuff? And I wanted to know what you
wear when you get baptized, you know, all those sort of things.
But when I, when it got to the moment, that was irrelevant.
It was just like, I just felt this is it.

(37:32):
This is what I'm starting, a newreal life, the life that
matters. And God's forgiven me.
I didn't understand that bit that much at the time.
But, you know, I knew that this is what God wanted me to do, to
be part of of his family. And yeah, and that's what the

(37:54):
Scripture said. So I went ahead with it.
I didn't even think to tell my parents.
My parents had no idea I'd been baptized.
And the religious people at uni were just, I don't know, they're
a bit over the top for my liking.
No, that's, I wouldn't think they were now.
But back then it was all about being cool.

(38:17):
And I just thought, oh, the people that are religious coming
around talking to people. I really don't want to be part
of that group. And then when I was baptized,
some people from City Beach Church came and did a talk at my
uni and I, we and a whole lot ofus young ones who were

(38:38):
Christians, there were handing out pamphlets.
And there was this guy who was renowned the like making fun of
Christianity. And I knew him pretty well.
And I went up and I said, would you like a pamphlet?
And he said, are you one of these Jesus freaks?
And I thought, this is the moment.

(38:59):
And I looked at him and said, I guess I am.
So I thought, no, this is what Iam.
Yeah. And I remember another friend
who was really great guy but notinterested.
He said to me one time, I wish Ibelieve like you do and I could

(39:20):
become a Christian because then I wouldn't feel tempted.
And I said to him, no, no, that's not what happens.
I still feel tempted in a whole lot of ways that I have God on
my side who saves me regardless of how many mistakes I make, if

(39:42):
I believe in him and his son's sacrifice.
But I still feel those temptations.
And so Christianity is more than, Oh, well, I won't be
tempted to do things. It's much bigger than that.
And he looked really stunned. He thought it was.
I don't know. It puts you on a spiritual plane

(40:02):
so you don't feel temptation. And I was a pretty young
Christian then. I'd only been a Christian a few
months when he said that. Yeah.
Which church were you baptized at?
Penny. It was City Beach Church.
But you weren't raised in the Church of Christ, were you?
No, I wasn't raised in a Church of Christ household.
Dad had sort of been a Catholic but he was an atheist and mum

(40:26):
had been raised a Methodist and gone to the same school that I
went to. So lots of Bible reading in, in
Methodist churches and praying. So that that was good.
But before I went to City Beach,my sister had got involved with
some Church of Christ from a different form of Church of

(40:48):
Christ, if you know what I mean.And we went there every Sunday
night to different churches as agroup.
And then one of the guys said tous that it's not very good for
your own growth and for the church for you to go flitting
from church to church to church.And you need to commit to a body

(41:10):
and support them, which is great.
But we were just visiting, we weren't committed and we that
put us all off. So none of those other people
went to church. But it interested me.
And when I linked that experience with what happened at
uni when I went to the Church ofChrist in City Beach, it just

(41:33):
seemed really genuine. Everyone was there because they
wanted to be there. Everyone was there because they
felt part of the family and wanted to contribute to each
other. What kind of things influences
there made you want to stay in that church group?
They were genuine. It wasn't a Sunday morning,
let's go to church thing. It was this is what influences

(41:56):
our life. There were a lot of people like
me who came from a household without Christianity and so I
didn't feel weird. There were quite a few of us
that were first generation Christians, if that makes sense.
So we'd come from families. Some had no beliefs, some had a

(42:18):
sort of a belief, but I wasn't alone.
There were other people whose families thought they were
really weird and or were worried.
My dad thought I was in a cult and was very frightened about
that, but as he got to meet moreand more Christians, he realized
they're actually really lovely people and they're not like a

(42:38):
cult. Sometimes you see churches where
it's like, you know, everyone dressing up and it's like a
perfect church. But like you could see in the
City Beach Church that you know there were other people like you
and that kind of made you feel like you belong, I guess.
That's so true. And because we live near the
beach, the dress code was huge range of some people wore suits,

(43:02):
some people came, went for an early morning swim and wore like
board shorts with bare feet or thongs and AT shirt or a nice
shirt. You know, it was it.
You never felt judged by what you wore.
And I think that was really good.
But just to and everyone was excited about being part of the

(43:25):
church. It was like they'd had their own
family. And because I came from a family
of smokers, I didn't smoke, but I would have reaped of cigarette
smoke. And yet no one ever, ever
mentioned it. It was like it was irrelevant.
And I thought, I really love that looking back, that was they

(43:46):
could have been very judgmental,but they weren't judgmental.
Yeah. And there were lots of social
things and lots of Bible studiesyou could go to.
And when you were first a Christian, particularly, they
made sure you were hooked up with someone so that you would
be able to have or one or two people.

(44:06):
You would have ongoing Bible studies.
You've worked with God for quitea while now, Penny.
What are some of the biggest things God has taught you over
the years? I, I think that's, again, I
wanted to think about some scripture when I was younger, I

(44:28):
used to have a recurring nightmare and I was very aware
of the spiritual realm and they were good.
There were spirits that weren't healthy and now I know they were
from Satan and there are spiritsthat are godly spirits.
And the idea that in first John you've got chapter 4, verse 4,

(44:53):
you are from God, little children and have overcome
because greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world.
So when I read that verse, that was a massive thing to show me
that the Spirit of God is stronger than any spirit in the

(45:13):
world. And I found that incredibly
comforting, particularly when when you're baptized, you get
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a seal that this is
you really are part of God. So that was awesome for me.
One of the other thing verses that I read this was First

(45:34):
Corinthians 10/13. No temptation has overtaken you,
but such as is common to man andGod is faithful who will not
allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the
temptation will provide the way of escape that you may be able
to endure it. So I knew no, no matter how

(45:57):
tough life got, how tricky it was, God would not let me go
through something that I couldn't handle.
And when I say I couldn't handlethat, I would have Him with me,
but I would be able to make a choice about which direction He

(46:18):
would never. He would put like a guard around
me to say, I'm not going to let you be tempted that far because
you're not ready for it or I'm going to protect you.
So when he says, you know, we gothrough staff temptation that
everyone goes through, but he will not allow me to be tempted
beyond what I can bear. And I found that again, so

(46:41):
powerful. It's like, oh, I can't handle
this. I can't handle this.
Well, guess what? God said if you couldn't handle
it, I wouldn't let you go through it and remember I'm here
with you. And I think that was absolutely
brilliant. Another thing I learned was it

(47:01):
says soul. Oh, this is when I was first a
Christian. When Nehemiah is put in a
difficult situation, the king said to him, why is your face
sad though you're not sick. This is nothing but sadness of
heart. Then I was very much afraid,

(47:21):
said Nehemiah. I said to the king, let the king
live forever. And he goes on.
And then the king said to me, what would you request?
And in that moment, Nehemiah says, so I prayed to the God of
heaven. And what that taught me, I
always think you have to pray toGod for really big things.

(47:43):
But God's saying if you have me in your mind all the time and
you're faced as nearby was with someone that you are almost
terrified of, say a prayer to me.
I'm there for you. I'm here for you.
And that was a really powerful thing, too.
A little prayer doesn't have to be long and fancy.

(48:05):
It can be just a small. I need your God right now to
guide me and give me wisdom and help me.
And I think that is bring it, Yeah.
Thank you Penny, I know that Graham is a big part of your
life and has been for a while and you know you've said that
he's like a big part of your faith and who you are today.

(48:28):
I'm curious how you met Graham and what impact he had on you
when you met him and what helpedyou realise he was the person
you wanted to walk beside in life and faith.
That's a really big question. I became a Christian and was
pretty involved before Graham came on the scene.

(48:50):
So he came, he worked with one of the people who went to
church, a guy called Peter Coleman.
And Graham came to a Friday night Bible study and he came to
the Bible study and I met him and I just didn't quite know.
Like I thought we need to make him welcome, need to be, you

(49:13):
know, this is someone who's searching and, and he thought he
was a Christian. And so he was really enjoying
the Bible study and everything like that.
And I spent some time getting toknow him and I thought, wow, he
is really dedicated to God. But it turned out there were
some things he needed to learn and his willingness to study the

(49:37):
Bible even when it meant contradicting what he already
understood. So he didn't think you needed to
get baptized. And he studied with people that
he had lived with, a fellow thathe had lived with, and some
people from the Presbyterian Church.
And the wife of the Presbyterianminister said to him, I will

(50:00):
give you a list of all the verses where baptism is
mentioned. You don't need to do it, but go
through the verses yourself. So Graham went through the
verses himself and at the end ofit realised he did need to be
baptized. And I thought, wow, he's a man
who's willing to change his views on things, to not be too

(50:24):
proud, to say I was wrong and I need to change.
Yeah. And I just thought that was
really powerful. He was so generous, Eli.
He was, he'll be embarrassed with this, but I'm going to say
it publicly. He had a car, but he also had a
motorbike. And when someone at church lost

(50:47):
their car, it just died and theycouldn't afford to get a new
one. They told me that he gave his
car to them to use and he just used his bike or caught buses.
And I didn't know that. And I only found out because the
other person, I said, oh, you'vegot a new car.
And she said, no, it's Graham's car.

(51:07):
He said I can use it as long as I need it.
And he constantly help people out like that.
And no one ever knew unless the person who benefited would tell
you. Yeah.
And one of the biggest things heever did was challenge me about
where my priorities were. And I did not like it.

(51:32):
I was very involved with some non Christians at the time and I
cancelled going out with my withsome Christian friends because
at the last minute someone who'sa non Christian invited me out.
And Graham said to me, I'm just really concerned where you're

(51:54):
headed with this. And I said to him, I go to
church Sunday morning, Bible study, Sunday morning service,
the business meeting, I go Sunday morning night, I go
Wednesday evening to church, I go to the Friday night Bible
study. And he just looked at me and

(52:15):
said, where would you rather be with the non Christian
influences in your life or with the Christian influences?
He didn't word it like that. He worded it differently, but
that's what he was saying. And he then he just quietly, he
said, it's really hard to say this to you because you look so

(52:35):
beautiful today, but I need to say this.
And it turned out there are a couple of other young people
that were worried about me but didn't want to upset me.
I found out that later, but I thought Graham had enough,
enough love for my soul that he would risk me not liking him to,

(53:01):
to bring me back to God. And I, I was so mad when he said
it. And I did not react well.
But on reflection, I thought, wow, here is an amazing,
amazing, godly man. And I think that was a real
switch in my head then. Yeah.

(53:21):
And he was my best friend. He was just such a lovely man,
you know? Yeah.
Yeah, that's really important. Were you young when you met him
or was? Yeah.
I would have been about 18, so it was only a few months after I
became a Christian and he was atthe Friday night Bible study.
It was open to everybody, but mostly it was it was hosted by a

(53:43):
young couple who had two kids, and about 20 of us went to their
place every Friday night. And there was a fellow who was
probably in his mid 30s, but I thought of him as really old
because I was 18. And there was a lady who was
probably in her 70s. Like, she went to the Bible

(54:05):
study and it was just a beautiful bonding time and
study. And yeah, it was wonderful.
And he was part of that group, too.
He also was on the roster to give people who lived a long way
away lifts all the time. So he would travel an hour to
pick up a lady called Mrs. King and her son Mervyn.

(54:27):
And so some days he would go early to pick them up, bring
them back, take them home for lunch, come back to the business
meeting, go back to pick them upfor the evening service.
Like, he did that every Sunday for a month, a couple of times a
year. And I didn't know he did that.
And I just thought he's, yeah, it was lovely.

(54:50):
And so then I started going withhim to pick up those people and
drop them off. And because you're in the car
for an hour, so. So you're talking, so you get to
know each other. And then he started picking me
up for church, so I got to know him some more.
Yeah. Thank you, Penny.
That's really encouraging. Hospitality is a huge part of

(55:11):
your life. And I know right now you and
Graham have Jr. John are and Little Zia living
with you, as you said, and you've opened your doors to
them. What made you want to do that?
I mean, I guess what was your thought process?
And like, you know, here's a family who's in need of a place
to stay, and how is that going for you?
Well, first of all, I grew up ina family that even though it was

(55:34):
chaotic, was incredibly hospitable and leading up to,
even before I was a Christian, we always had people living with
us. And as each of us left home, mum
and dad continued to open their home to people I met all over
the place. They would have people I met in
a youth hostel in Broome. If they came through Perth they

(55:57):
would stay with mum and Dad and if mum and Dad were away they
would just let people know who needed a place.
This is where the key is, you can just stay even if they
weren't there. And when I met Graham and he met
my family, he loved how they didthat.
And then when we were getting together he said I would love to

(56:18):
be a household that is hospitable like your parents
are. Like he started coming to
Christmas with our family and hecouldn't believe the strangers
that were there that mum and dadhad only met recently.
Because, And I just think one ofthe legacies my parents gave me
is to be hospitable, to share what you have with other people.

(56:42):
And I'm really grateful to God that I grew up with parents like
that. So they would do without, they
would end up with running out ofmoney because they were
constantly helping people. And Graham and I have always
wanted to be able to help peopleor give them a place to stay for
a while. And you know, it's and we have a

(57:06):
house that is in need of a bit of maintenance.
It's not perfectly clean. I mean, it's clean, but it's not
perfect. So you can't relax in it.
So when we knew that, well we'd had Cassandra stay with us when
she was in the final part of hernursing course and then when she

(57:27):
got a job, she lived with us fora while.
So when her sister moved over toAustralia, it was just natural
that obviously we would have Jana stay with us and Jaya.
And as soon as they arrived, Graham actually offered it to
them. He said would you, after talking
to me, would you like to stay with us?
But they were staying with Cassandra and Alvin at the time,

(57:50):
and they said they were fine, but they knew that offer was
there. So I, I blame all credit my
parents with instilling that into me about being hospitable.
And then when you read in the Bible about sharing what you
have, to me, it was a no brainer.
And I was blessed with marrying a man who was super enthusiastic

(58:12):
to do it. Yeah.
And, and yes, there's a culture difference and that's healthy
for both of us. And we have a little girl who is
super active and that's good forus too.
And we regard them as family. They are just beautiful.

(58:34):
Is there anything that kind of changes your day-to-day life now
or any moments that you find really special having them stay
over? Oh yeah, When they get back from
work, we Zia rushes in to find Graham and me and yells out
grandma, grandma, grandpa, Grandpa and just runs.
It gets really excited and Jana and Jr. are trying to make sure

(58:57):
that we have some space, but it's just lovely having the
three of them here. So we've had some deep
conversations with Jr. and Jana and also just some fun ones.
You know, it's been and, and we're tasting some of the stuff
that they make and they taste some of the stuff that we make.
And we've sort of split the fridge up and, and the blessing

(59:20):
was we recently bought a new chest freezer.
So there's a lot more room and they're really easy to live
with. You know, it's, it's just
lovely. And we've had some fun culture
shock things. So my kids and I and Graham
would run outside with no shoes on.
Well, a lot of cultures don't dothat.
They they put shoes on their kids if they go outside.

(59:45):
And yeah, so they're going, oh, can you go on the grass?
What about the snakes? And I said, we, we don't have
snakes in our backyard. So they knew it was safer.
But it's just so lovely. And occasionally we can sing and
just talk about our faith together, the four of us.
And it's really special. Thank you for sharing that,

(01:00:09):
Penny. I, I've actually remembered, I'd
love to ask a bit about parenting and you and Graham,
your kids and grandchildren. Could you share a bit about what
your role as parents kind of were and what that experience
was like and stuff like that? Yeah.
Oh, thanks, Eli. Yes, Graham and I had planned to

(01:00:32):
own our house before we had children.
We'd taken out the type of loan that we would own the house in
five years and things. God had other plans.
So we were, we ended up, we thought by the age of when I
turned 30 that I would have owned our home right.

(01:00:55):
By the time I was 30, we had three children.
And so that was a whole different ball game.
And I'd had to stop work. And that meant it was, you know,
difficult, but things were not easy.
But having children is such a blessing.
And I'm a teacher. So I thought, OK, I've got this.
I studied up on all the physicalstuff, you know, genetics.

(01:01:18):
And I love some of the things that my mum and dad did, but
others I thought I want to do itdifferently.
And Graham had very different household from mine.
So you go into it as a couple thinking you'll approach this
the same way, but we didn't. And each child is different.
They are all, all individuals. So you need to tailor just as

(01:01:44):
God does in growing you in your faith and me in my faith.
We need to tailor our approach for what our young child needs.
So initially, first baby, I had no confidence, I was exhausted,
he didn't sleep, I thought I wasa failure, I just couldn't make

(01:02:06):
it work. And then when he was seven
months old, I became pregnant with our second child and I
remember thinking I have a choice here.
I can burst into tears and feel stressed or I can crack up
laughing and enjoy the moment. And I decided to do that.
I thought, you know, this is crazy.

(01:02:28):
This is a blessing from God. And what we, we didn't have many
rules, but the rules we did have, we enforce them so they
could go a lot of places. There were drawers and cupboards
that I put coloured stickers on and they knew they could go to
them and open them like the Tupperware cupboard.

(01:02:49):
There were others that were no, no, no, no, no.
So these were yes, yes. We also, as they became older,
insisted that they spoke respectfully to us and to each
other. And if they turn the TV on, we
didn't care. But we did care that they
weren't nasty to each other. And that was a big priority for

(01:03:12):
us. The other one was because we
were hospitable, we expected them to help be a part of that
and they loved it. They loved having people over.
So and they would help and each of them has people in their own
homes. So I'm, I think that's a good
legacy. We did teach them about God and

(01:03:36):
they were super interested in God.
And Chris would ask really powerful questions from when he
was quite a young man, like whenhe was seven, he would say, he
asked me mum, why did God let the devil be so tricky?

(01:03:57):
Because the devil can fool people.
Why did God let that happen? Which for a 7 year old is a
pretty deep question. But also the people at church
had nurtured a love of God in mykids and they loved going to
church. And I learnt a lot of my

(01:04:17):
parenting, had conversations with a lot of young mums like
Willie Randall. And your grandma wasn't there
then, but there were Keith and Reek were a couple that was
there. There were just quite a few
young couples that we all spoke with each other about ideas and

(01:04:37):
to work with our kids. And there was a ladies class in
the in the daytime, and we wouldalso talk about getting ideas
and we would cry together when things weren't working.
So I don't know what to do. And we take turns minding each
other's kids and things like that.
Yeah, so and Graham would chat. Graham and I would chat a lot

(01:05:01):
about parenting and what we wanted to do and what we wanted
to achieve. And we disagreed on things
sometimes, but we sort of managed to compromise and yeah.
Thank you. Penny, could you touch a bit
more on how you could trade thatChristian influence and the kind
of things you did? Could you maybe share a bit
about that? Yeah, so they were all really

(01:05:24):
keen to be involved in church and they were very interested in
learning about the Bible, and wetalked about that at home a lot
as well. We had a number of Bible studies
in our home during the week and the kids loved being part of
that like they were for adults, but the kids would hang around
and be part of that. They had lots of questions.

(01:05:47):
We sang a lot in the car when wedrove over to Perth.
We sang a lot of religious songsas well as other songs and so
music and lessons about God through music were a big part of
our family. Graham and I also had
devotionals as the kids got older with the kids and but as I

(01:06:08):
said, they were very involved. They came to church a lot.
And then as time went on, Chris was fairly young.
He was 10 when he really wanted to get baptised.
And so we had a study with him and Graham recorded it and it
was the study from Romans. And Chris, at the end of it,

(01:06:32):
Chris said to Graham, I really want to be baptized.
And Graham said, what if we said, we think you're too young?
And he teared up and said, I would pray that someone else in
the church could baptize me. And so we thought, wow, you are

(01:06:52):
serious about this? And so the friends where we were
living at the time, the friends in the next unit had a pool, and
we'd only met them the night before.
So we went over and baptized ourson.
And then Melanie decided she wanted to get baptized as well.

(01:07:15):
And not there and then, but a year or two later, she was
really keen. So she was baptized.
And then Jackie. Jackie was really interesting
because we said she was young aswell.
She was about 12. And I said, no, we both said,
what if we said to you, we're not sure if you understand the

(01:07:41):
idea of sin. You know, doing something that's
disobedient to mum and dad isn'tnecessarily sin, but we're
wondering what you think about God and his perspective.
And she looked at us both and said, it doesn't matter whether
you think I've sinned or not. I know I've done the wrong thing

(01:08:06):
and I want to be forgiven. And I thought that was pretty
courageous and pretty frank. So by this time, all three of
our kids had been baptized. And we're very involved in
helping out with kids classes, organizing things for kids,
welcoming people to church. Yeah.

(01:08:27):
Studying in Bible classes, making decisions that showed
that they were living their faith.
Yeah. And what happened with all of
their faiths? Did they continue to be
Christians? Well, they did for a long time.
And then 1 by 1 certain things Ithink became a distraction in

(01:08:51):
their lives. For some of them it was
relationships. For others, it was just re
looking at the Bible and thinking, trying to work out as
this what it's teaching and revisiting some things that
they've been taught and just wondering actually, is that

(01:09:11):
correct? And so all three of them at the
moment don't attend any church. They still all believe in God
and they know that you shouldn'tbe faking it.
So they got to a point where they didn't agree with a number
of teachings of the church and therefore they didn't feel OK to

(01:09:35):
keep coming to church if they didn't believe that some of the
teachings were correct. So but when, when they're here,
when Chris and Ronnie and the kids are here, they love coming
to church at Canberra. And I think that's really good.
And I don't think God's finishedwith them yet.

(01:09:57):
Yeah, they're very respectful and honouring of our faith, and
I thank God for that. I think it's really good that
you didn't force faith on them. You did your part and you kind
of gave them the opportunity. They were all baptized, but what
more can you do? They've, they need to make their
own decision with their faith. And if that's what they choose,
then you know. Yeah, you're right, and it is

(01:10:19):
heartbreaking and I find it so distressing.
But at the same time, they've still kept connections with
other young people who used to come to church.
And there are time like they're the ones that they're still
quite close to. And I love that.
And without the church, they wouldn't have become so

(01:10:42):
connected to all those people. And I think that is a real
blessing. And they do reflect on how they
met through the Church of Christ, through the church
family, and how much that helpedthem in their years of growing
up as teenagers. And I'm really, really glad
there's still those connections.Yeah.

(01:11:05):
And I pray. I pray for them.
I pray for their faith. I pray for Satan not to keep
distracting them. And, you know, all those things.
Yeah. But we're here.
We love them, and God loves themeven more than we do.
And he's ready with open arms. Yeah, yeah.

(01:11:26):
Thank you Penny, love to move onto your profession a little bit.
You work in flexible education and teaching young patients at
the Canberra Hospital School andworking with young people at the
Youth Justice Centre. Could you tell us a bit about
those jobs and you know that influence on you and what you
love the most about that kind ofwork?
I yes, thank you for asking that.

(01:11:49):
So the Canberra Hospital has a school room within the pediatric
ward and we take young people from 5 wards in the pediatric
ward and also young people from other health programs in to the
hospital school and we help themstay connected to their

(01:12:10):
learning. We contact their schools if they
have a school, some of them haven't been going to school for
years or months and we work withwhat are the priority learnings
that they need. And if they really reject
school, we create a program for them to tap into their passions.
And I might teach them maths andscience and social sciences and

(01:12:34):
political thinking and critical thinking through one fun
activity that they do. So I help them develop skills.
And yeah, it's, it's really good.
And you can see them become moreconfident and recognizing they
have skills and and then they leave the hospital with more
confidence than when they came in.

(01:12:57):
And they leave prison with more confidence than when they came
in. And I think, wow, this is an
amazing job. Yeah, I, I often say to people,
I think my colleagues, this is, I think this is the job.
Well, these are the jobs that God created for me because I

(01:13:18):
feel that what he's grown in me as a human being through
Christianity and through the people like Kate and, and Mark
and, and Graham and so many others, Jeanette and Lucretia,
the way they serve has inspired me.
And I think God's given me skills and I get to use them to

(01:13:43):
help very vulnerable young people.
I help them with their learning.So I am a teacher, I'm employed
by education, but I also give them a safe place.
And some of them have been bullied, some have just been in
a really horrible place with their mental health and their
emotional health. And God's given me the sort of

(01:14:06):
personality, the sort of gentleness and the sense of
humour and the skills I need to help them trust me and open up
and let me know what they need. And I feel that's the same with
the people in the Youth Justice Centre.
They feel safe with me and I, I just think it's a real blessing

(01:14:30):
to be out of work with these young people, yes on education,
but also in helping them recoverfrom their view of themselves
from they, they think I'm hopeless, I'm an idiot.
I'm all those things and they'renot.
They're human beings who have been created by God, who have
made some bad decisions like allof us make.

(01:14:51):
And the consequences for a lot of their decisions have led them
either into the Youth Justice Center or have meant that they
are so unwell that they're hospitalized.
And I just thank God that I get to be a part of that healing
process. And if they learn a bit of
science and maths a long way, that's a bonus.

(01:15:13):
What kind of influences have youseen that have on on your faith
Penny? Gratitude, absolute gratitude
that I haven't had some of the struggles that these young
people have had. So for the one, some, some of
the ones in the Youth Justice Centre, some of them have really

(01:15:35):
caring families, others have families that don't care about
them at all. And as I said to you, I knew I
grew up in a family where I was loved and valued.
And I look at these young peoplewho don't have that and I pray
that they find that. But I it.
So it helps me in my faith because I know God is there.

(01:15:57):
He hasn't finished with these young people and he's looked
after me again and again and again.
So I find the jobs really help me feel grateful for the
opportunities I've had and that I am a Christian and that God is
growing me every single day. The challenge for me is to

(01:16:19):
remember God comes first, the job comes much further down the
track and I think the temptationwhen you really enjoy something
is to forget that God needs to come first.
Because without God I'm dead andI don't want to be dead.

(01:16:40):
You know, I left teaching once before because we were singing a
hymn in Canberra and it struck me that teaching was taking over
my life. So I quit teaching and it said
all the vain things that charm me most, I sacrifice them to

(01:17:03):
him. And at that moment, I really
thought I need to step away fromteaching.
And I did for about 9 years, yeah.
So Penny, I think it's safe to say you could be retired.
I could have retired, which I have.
I did. Once and then went back to work
for the government and then I retired again and went back to

(01:17:26):
the and went back to teaching. I I the thing that struck me, I
left the government job to work on a business idea I had about
developing resilience and preventing suicide, giving kids
strategies to reduce suicide numbers and to help them be

(01:17:46):
resilient. And I needed to support myself
while I developed that business.And in the end, the job I have
in the hospital school and the job that I now have in the Youth
Justice Centre are both involvedwith young people with mental
health concerns and I feel that it is a blessing to be able to

(01:18:09):
work with them on that journey. So I will need to stop doing
this one day. I realize that it is exhausting,
but it is so joyful. It is worth it.
And I'm one of many people who are working with these people,
and I get to see the difference it makes, you know, And to have

(01:18:32):
a young person who's on the run from his dad and he's in
hospital because his dad is after the family and to know
that he feels safe. And you're part.
Of the group that makes him feelsafe is something to treasure
and you know, and you should seethat young man who's so angry

(01:18:57):
with everything calm down, startto learn and smile.
And I think, wow, This is why I do what I do.
And I also feel it's important to have someone who believes in
God, part of the system. And one of my favorite social
workers who has now retired, said to me one time, Penny, you

(01:19:20):
know what's missing with the plans we put together for these
young people. And she I said, tell me what you
think. And she said the.
Spiritual dimension, I said. Absolutely.
We deal with their mental health, we deal with their
emotional health, we deal with their nutrition and their
physical ailments. But what they really need is

(01:19:42):
God. And I've only ever had.
I've had two. Conversations, three
conversations about God with some of the young people who
have asked me about God. It's not part of my book.
Yeah, it helps your faith too. You know, like.
You could be retired. But you choose to stay at these

(01:20:02):
jobs, and you also have a big impact on these people's lives.
As you said, you can have some, you know, spiritual chats with
some people. Have any of those people you've
talked to like, been really interested about it or had any
faith of their own? Yes.
One young lady. I went to her room.
After the after the school day just to check on her because she

(01:20:26):
seemed a bit flat and I went into the room and she asked me
directly. She said.
Are you a Christian? And.
I said yes. But I'm also.
Your teacher, So I have. To be really careful about the
power differentials here. And I was also doing a Nehemiah
prayer at the same time, saying God give me wisdom to know what

(01:20:50):
I should say and shouldn't say. And she said because I've been
wondering about God and wanting to talk about God and no one
here will talk to me about God. And again, I thought I could get
sacked, but I don't care. In that moment I made the call.
I said, well, I believe there's more to this world than just our

(01:21:11):
senses and the physical side. She said so do I, so do I.
And I said, I believe the Bible's from God and you can
find the Bible if you, I can give you 1 if you want one.
She said, no, no, I I can read the Bible.
And she said, oh, that's so good.
And then she wanted to ask more questions.

(01:21:32):
So I said a few more things, butI didn't get to preach the whole
gospel. I did say we all do things wrong
and God wants to forgive us. And I believe it's through
becoming a Christian and being baptized.
And but you need to discover that for yourself.
You can't do it just because someone else tells you.

(01:21:52):
And she was so grateful to find someone who believed in God and
was willing to own it. And I just prayed and thought,
like I said, if I get sacked, I get sacked.
But I didn't. So yeah.
Did she go to church? Now, do you know?
I, I don't know. I don't.
Know she's in a very difficult situation.

(01:22:15):
Yeah, she had a very complex family situation and her dad was
had a job where he was off, he was a truck driver so he wasn't
home much and mum wasn't around.So yeah, she was from going from
place to place to place. It was really hard.
And, and the other young one whowent to a religious school and

(01:22:39):
had to do a, a prayer journal every day, and she'd had a
horrible few days. She was in so much pain, they
couldn't figure out what was wrong with her.
And my colleague said, oh, Penny, can you do the prayer
journal? Because they know I'm a
Christian. And I said sure.
So I sat down with her and she was close to tears.
She was only in year 6. And she said, I've just think,

(01:23:04):
can't think. I don't know what to thank God
for. And I said, you know what?
A prayer journal isn't just about thanking God.
And I showed her a Psalm with David where he was.
Calling out to God. Why is this happening?
I said, David poured his heart out to God.
So in your prayer journal, I don't have to read it.

(01:23:24):
You can just write your heart and just say, God, I'm finding
it really, really tough, please help me.
And she said, oh, can you write?I said, yeah, you can write
that. And she said, I think I know, I
don't want to write now. So she wrote it.
And at the end she said, do you want to read it?

(01:23:45):
I said, well, it's your personaljournal, you don't have to show
me. She said, I want you to read it.
And she said, thank you, God, for putting people in my life
who can comfort me. And I was like, wow, you know, I
was fighting. Back tears.
So I. Got to talk about God with her.
Another girl had an assignment from her school to talk about

(01:24:09):
Moses and she didn't know how tofind out about him.
She looked up Encyclopaedia Britannica.
I said, have you heard of Bible gateway?
And she's in year 6 as well or year 7.
And she hadn't. So I showed a Bible gateway so
she could search for Moses. And we found the story and she

(01:24:30):
said this is really good. And then you can quote the Bible
as a research thing. So yeah, it's those little
moments that like as you said. Making you go like this is.
Why I do what I do. And they're really impactful,
yeah. And hopefully they remember
those moments, you know? Yeah, and because my bread, my

(01:24:53):
colleagues know. I'm a Christian.
Anyone who has Bible stuff to do, they just say do you mind
doing this thing? And I'm like, sure, yeah, yeah.
I do I've. Had so many good things happen
in my life because of my faith and because I'm a Christian and

(01:25:18):
I often wonder why God has blessed.
Me with the long life. That I've had.
I just think, how come I get to be the one, you know?
Yeah. And I'm just grateful.
I used to feel guilty, like, what have I done to deserve
this? And the reality is I've done
nothing to deserve this. But God has a place for me still

(01:25:39):
in this world. And as long as he does, I'm
going to serve him and love him and love people.
Yeah. Thank you, Penny.
That was really encouraging. Through all of the ups and downs
of life, what has helped you keep your faith steady and
grounded in Christ? The knowledge that I was

(01:26:01):
thinking of Psalm A. 139. That God knows every step I take
before I take it, Every word I'mthinking and saying before I
think or say it. He cares about me so much he
died and sent his son for. Me.

(01:26:23):
Not just for everybody, but for every.
Individual. Not just for the group, He died
for the church, that's true, buthe died for Penny Fry.
And that is astonishing to thinkJesus was there at the beginning
of creation and was part of thatcreation.
He was there with God and the Spirit and Jesus went through

(01:26:48):
agony for little all me and I think wow and the fact that I've
been created in God's. Image is mind.
Blowing that God took care with how he formed me and that He
knew the choices I would make, good and bad, and has protected

(01:27:09):
me for decades and helped me keep on track.
But there are times when I've made some really bad decisions,
really bad decisions, and thingscould have gone horribly wrong,
and God has preserved me throughthem and it hasn't happened.
And I've learned from that, not just that God will help me when

(01:27:31):
I'm in a pickle, but that He's given me another chance to grow
and rethink. And I love the verses in Hebrews
5, the verse in Hebrews 514. But solid food, He's talking
about milk and the meat. He says solid food is for the
mature who because of practice or use have their senses trained

(01:27:56):
to discern good and evil. And I'll read that again, solid
foods for the mature who becauseof practice had their senses
trained to discern good and evil.
And that means even the mature didn't couldn't discern good and
evil until they had a go, until they tried to put scripture into
practice. And guess what?

(01:28:18):
They messed up, we mess up. But that verse says through
messing up, through practicing and using your understanding of
scripture, you train your sensesto truly discern good and evil
by messing up. And God built that into our
growth that we will give things a go.

(01:28:39):
Some things will be spot on and others will bomb out, but guess
what? We learned something through
that. And he's happy.
And I think that Hebrews 514 hashelped me my whole Christian
life. I am going to mess up.
I'm going to mess up lots of times, but even unintentionally.
It's going to be stuff that isn't wise in retrospect, but

(01:29:02):
with retrospect, you know next time to be wise.
Yeah. And grateful to God and humble.
Humility is a huge thing. Thank you, Penny, I'd love to
ask about your singing. Night that you do.
And I know that, as you said, singing's a big part of your
faith parenting. You used to, you know, sing with

(01:29:24):
your kids on the way to church. I think you said yeah.
And so I know you're doing, you and Graham have been doing
singing. Nights at your house.
And could you share a bit more about that type of ministry and
impact, like, you know, how you leave the windows open for your
neighbors and like those kind ofthings you do?
Yes, I think in this world a lotof people don't sing.

(01:29:46):
And they might hum a bit in the shower.
And singing is something God invented.
He gave us created our voices, our lungs, He created music, He
created the physics around musicand he did it not just so we
would praise him, but so he knewit would be so good for us

(01:30:06):
mentally, physically and communally.
And I love that. That is something he gave us an
incredible gift. No matter how bad our voices
are, singing together lifts yourspirits.
So Graham and I both feel singing brings people together
and it makes you feel good. And so we have always wanted to

(01:30:29):
invite people to a singing evening, including people that
used to come to church and we still do that.
I send out emails to people who used to be part of our
fellowship and I also invite ourneighbors and make sure as far
as possible that people don't park across the road on our
neighbors lawn because they're trying to grow it.

(01:30:51):
And I love that we've been able to invite people that we just
meet like at a neighborhood BBQ one year we invited people we
met there and they turned up andthey loved it.
In fact they clapped, which was really weird when we sang one of
the songs. But our neighbors on both sides

(01:31:11):
love hearing it. And I think, and we get such a
buzz and people seem to really enjoy it, you know?
Yeah. So and people that we haven't
seen for a long time come along.And I think that's great.
Yeah. And something that Graham and I
have done over the years is a ministry where young couples

(01:31:34):
would come to us before they were married and just after
they've been married and actually ask us to help them
through what it means. What marriage is, how what God
thinks of marriage, and some of the ways that a couple can grow
closer to God as they grow closer to each other.

(01:31:55):
Conflict resolution and bringingdifferent sets of values to a
marriage. So you can both be Christians,
but your Christian families who raised you may have done it
differently and you sort of assume this is the way to do it.
So we've done a lot of work overthe last few decades.
We've run 2 to 3 workshops within church and in people's

(01:32:18):
homes and Interstate. We've done that as well.
But as I said, we've had people who have been married for a
while come to us and ask for help.
And we've also had people who are entering marriage come and
just yeah. And we have a program that we
use that Graham and I have developed that we use for young

(01:32:39):
couples and older couple. We've had some older couples
that have been part of our workshop as well.
Yeah. Do you visit with a lot of you
know, friends often and kind? Of talk about faith with.
Them I God brings them into my life.
So I have a lot of. Contacts where I raise
Christianity and they're mostly not very comfortable with it but

(01:33:02):
they know it's a part of my life.
So I meet with a friend who is an atheist and I meet with her
every few months and she always challenges me and her husband is
an atheist as well. But that's OK.
I want them to know that I'm sticking with God.
And and they say, but you do science, how Can you believe in

(01:33:23):
God? And I said, the more I do
science, the more I believe in God.
When you look at the intricacy of creation and how so much
works together, I just say to her, I don't see how people
can't believe in God. I really struggle with that.
Like this one, our bodies didn'tjust come through time and

(01:33:45):
chance, you know, that's what anyway, so and all the physics
as well. So I find science actually every
time I look at something, I my faith in God is even stronger.
Yeah. But yeah, I do, I do try and
talk to people. I talk to Uber drivers.
I often get an Uber to work and I will talk through with them

(01:34:11):
about faith. And I have a neighbor whose
uncle is an Uber driver and he'sa very strong Muslim and I've
had discussions with him about Ezekiel on the way to work.
He's doing me to work. We talk about the Bible and my

(01:34:32):
our neighbor up the road she wasdoing, she goes went to the
Islamic school and had to do a project on interviewing someone
about something in their life that changed their life
radically. And she was interested in my
talking about Christianity. And she didn't just do an

(01:34:53):
amazing project on it. They asked her to present it to
the whole school and she did. And I got to preach the.
Gospel and talk. About what it means to be a
Christian. And it isn't about a church
building and just going somewhere on Sunday.
She said it sounds like a familyof God, like a family.
I said, yeah, it is. And I talked about grace and sin

(01:35:17):
and how grace and faith work together.
And she said because we believe that if you do more good things
than you do bad things, that youwill be with Allah.
And I said, well, this is where Christianity is different.
It looks at grace, which is we will never be good enough that

(01:35:38):
God sacrificed Jesus so that that would provide an Ave. for
us to be forgiven. So I feel yes, I haven't knocked
on doors. I have in the past, but it
didn't produce anything. But God keeps bringing people
into my life, like Adam, who is baptized and he still contacts

(01:35:59):
us and. And Haley still has a strong
faith and he's studying even though she hasn't come to
church. He's studying with her friends,
and they talk to us as well. Yeah.
So you never know. What about you, Eli?
Oh, sorry. I was going to ask you a
question. What helps you keep strong and
faithful? I go to a regular Bible study at

(01:36:22):
school, which really? Gives me that weekly refresh
when you know, I know I've heardit from a lot of people that
when they went to school, it kind of drove them away from
Christ and was a bit a lot different to the person they are
on Sunday. But I'm really enjoying that.
And then this podcast to just hearing people's stories and it
really encourages me with my ownfaith and just being able to

(01:36:46):
share that with others too. It's just really means a lot to
me. Well, you've been incredibly
patient, so thank you. And letting me tell you a lot
about my journey. So I feel like I should start a
podcast and interview you. So Penny, are there any
scriptures that have especially carried?

(01:37:06):
You through your walk with God. Yes, I think the as I I've.
Mentioned, I think most of them.Already, but the idea that it it
isn't about how good I am in Ephesians.
It's not about the. Works I do, it's actually about
God's grace and Jesus sacrifice.And my.

(01:37:28):
Confidence and faith in his ability to save me.
And I I really think that Ephesians passage has stuck with
me. It's not about works, it's about
faith. I also think the idea that I
know God won't let me face something that I can't handle
and I might need to call on other people to handle help me

(01:37:51):
handle it. But that's part of God's plan.
It's about me needing to be humble.
I also think this is one that I really found hard to take, but I
love it. It's in Proverbs 27 five and
six. Better is open rebuke than.
Love, that is. Concealed and that's Proverbs 27

(01:38:15):
five and I love that idea that Graham was very like he really.
Cared about me when I was going.Astray and instead of
maintaining the. Sort of easy.
Relationship that we had he because of that love he rebuked

(01:38:36):
me. He was open about where I
thought I was heading. So to me when the proverb says
better is open rebuke than a love that says oh I don't want
to offend them. You know that love is concealed
love, but expressed love is having the courage to recognize
someone's at risk. And your love says I might.

(01:39:00):
Hurt their feelings. But that's better than them
going Australian leaving God. So I love that verse and also
the next verse part of it says faithful are the wounds of a
friend and I love that idea thatyour.

(01:39:20):
Friends in Christ. Might hurt you that you can
learn from them because. They they are someone.
Who actually loves you and caresabout you?
And even if they do the wrong thing, they still love you and
care about you and you're going to learn from that experience.
So those ones are really good. And the other verses are one the

(01:39:43):
one about cast your cares like in first Peter, cast your cares
on me. Don't lean on your own
understanding is another idea. So yeah, essentially it's trust
God, give him your life. Don't try and fix everything on
your own. Learn from each other, be with

(01:40:04):
brethren, don't neglect meeting together.
We need each other. And recognize that the church is
a group in Ephesians where people give to each other.
My job is to build you up and your job is to build me up.
It's a mutual thing. And as in Corinthians, it talks

(01:40:25):
about all the parts of the body,and none of us can say, I don't
need that person. Every one of us has been placed
in this body because we're needed and we need to do our
bit. And I think that's, I find that
encouraging. But also it reminds me I have a

(01:40:45):
responsibility to be serving my brethren.
Yeah. Thank you Penny for those verses
for anyone listening who might be.
Searching, questioning, or feeling a bit lost like you once
did. What encouragement would you
want to share with them? I would say it's good that
you're feeling. That and that you're able to own

(01:41:06):
it and I would suggest that you find.
Someone you can talk to? If you know someone who has a
faith, if you try, if you have aBible or access to a Bible to
start reading through a book like Mark, the Gospel of Mark,
but also to pray to God to help you find what's important and.

(01:41:32):
To help him guide. You through this journey, I
would remind them that you mightfeel alone but there is a God
who loves you intensely and wants to support you through
this and wants to bless you incredibly.
So I would tell him, don't give up, Pray that you can find

(01:41:55):
someone that you can talk to. Just as God help me put people
in my life when I was feeling lost and searching, He will help
you find a way as well. Yeah.
Thank you, Penny. Is there anything else you want
to say before you end? Yeah, just the one other thing

(01:42:16):
is. Really make.
An effort to be part of a fellowship, even if you feel
you're the odd one out. You don't have the same
background as someone else. They're your family.
Don't neglect your physical family.
God thinks that's important too.Very important.
But remember to really get closeto people in your church

(01:42:40):
community or someone that you know Interstate because we need
each other and God put us in this place to support and help
each other, just as I'm supported and helped and
encouraged by my. Brethren, I want.
That for other people. Penny, thank you so much for
joining me. I really appreciate you.

(01:43:00):
Sharing your story and. I've definitely learned a lot
more about you that I didn't know before and I think your
story is really encouraging and everyone listening will be
really blessed by what you shared.
Thanks, Eli. Thank you for this work and this
ministry that you do. May God bless you.
There's no one there. We can figure this out.

(01:43:27):
Put your feet down.