From Devastation, Addiction and Sorrow to Freedom ft. Pastor Israel Tavor

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
she loses the baby, oh my god.
She loses a lot of blood andshe's fading in and out.
We're calling the doctors andeverything, and then she just
goes out on me.
She starts turning oh you know,purple.
Her lips get white and I Icould feel we're gone, like I'm
holding her.
Her life is, yeah, she justfolded over.
I wanted to scream so bad likedon't leave me, don't leave me,

(00:22):
please don't leave me welcome toelohim Podcast, a podcast about
real life issues from abiblical perspective.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
On this podcast, we don't just want to be
entertained.
We want to be changed.
Listen to the end to hear whatGod has for your life.
Elohim Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Welcome to Elohim Podcast, a podcast about real
life issues from a biblicalperspective.
Today I'm honored and I'mprivileged because I have Pastor
Israel Tavar from VictoryOutreach Church.
How's it going, man, what youbeen up?

Speaker 1 (00:57):
to How's everything it's been going so good.
Came off of, I would say, oneof our bigger weekends, you know
, resurrection Sunday weekend,and we've just been all go.
Man, it's been great.
Family's doing great.
Kids are getting big.
I have a 16 year old daughternow.
Oh, my goodness, we justcelebrated her birthday
yesterday.
And yeah, just loving life, man.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
You're doing some great things.
I don't even know how you havethe time.
You have a bunch of kids.
You really took that scripturewhere it says be fruitful and go
multiply, and then you have apretty big size congregation and
you guys do a lot of community,super active and all that stuff
.
But I'm so excited to have youtoday, man.
It's an absolute honor and aprivilege that you took the time

(01:43):
, even though we're neighbors upin Buckeye on the way to
California.
But you've been a pastor forquite some time.
You know you've been doing theLord's will.
Your husband you've beenmarried for 17 years.
It's incredible, but I'minterested in getting to know.
You know what God has done inyour life, the prayers of a
mother that was resilient, thatnever gave up.

(02:06):
And I also met your brother,right, David, yeah, Also doing
ministry.
So your mother's prayers, orwhoever has been praying for you
guys, they're coming alive.
The prayers are in full effect.
But tell me, have you beenChristian your whole life?
Did you grew up in church?
Yeah, Were you always this niceguy that I'm?
No, no, I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
No matter of fact, I grew up in church.
My grandfather started churchout in 1985 with my grandma and
my parents took over that churchin 2000.
They became the lead pastors,senior pastors, right there in
Big George Modesto.
I wasn't always this guy, youknow.
I had my time away from God,right, and yeah, it wasn't too

(02:48):
good.
I'm very grateful to be here.
I shouldn't be here, wow.
You know I should either belocked up or, you know, dead, or
, you know, out somewhere messedup still.
But thank God for his grace andmercy.
You know, even my times ofrunning and times of, I would
say, being far from the call ofGod, he still didn't give up on

(03:09):
me and, yeah, I got saved when Iwas 19 and never looked back.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
How was that encounter Like?
Did you meet?
How did God reach you?
Because I know it's differentfor a lot of people.
Some people say you know theywere struggling with an
addiction and they said, god, ifyou're real, can you deliver me
from this?
Or you know, they were just inthe last moment, a terrible
season in their life, and theyjust experienced God's love for
the first time.
And there's no way that you candeny God is real.

(03:38):
How was it for you?

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well, my dad's church , like you talk about praying.
My dad's church, like you talkabout praying.
My dad's church always prayedfor me.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
And I'll go home, try to sneak in.
You know my parents, my parentswere there praying for me, you
know, but I was in a real darkplace, you know suicidal.
You know very violent.
You know drug addicted.
You know, and like everythingpointed at me.
Not your father was a pastor,yeah, yeah, and you, you, you
were addicted to drugs at thattime.
Oh yeah, yeah, really yeah.
Well, how did that happen?
How did you get into drugs?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
I, I think, when I was 15.
I think what I would explain ismy heart got broke, man, by God
.
You know, my, my grandmother,was sick.
We prayed, it didn't happen,wow, you know, and she passed
away.
And it was a really toughseason because at that moment it

(04:37):
was like one of those thingslike, if you don't heal my
grandma, then I can't believeyou're real.
Wow, and it threw me for a loop.
I got involved in doing a lotof stuff I shouldn't and it was
a four-year track.
I weighed about 145 pounds.
You know, I was messed up, man,man.

(04:57):
And my dad never stoppedpraying for me, never stopped
loving on me.
My mom always prayed for me.
Church folk used to always tryto reach me, you know, see me
and remind me that God loves me.
But honestly, my encounter waswas different.
Yeah, because I knew, you know,growing up in church, since I
was a baby, but it wasn't evenin a service, it wasn't even in

(05:23):
um, I would.
It wasn't even in, I would saylike an encounter on the streets
or anything.
It was.
We're in a house right there inSouthside, modesto.
It was me and my friend Tony.
You know, he's like a bigbrother to me.
Yeah, and I did a lot of workfor him.
And one day we sat down thereand he seen that something was

(05:47):
wrong and he kicked everybodyout of the room and he said I
literally was choking up rightthere and it was probably going
to be one of the bigger paydaysfor us and I didn't want to do
it no more.
And my boy told me the truth.
He said look, this life ain'tfor you.

(06:08):
God bless that moment.
Yeah, he said this life's notfor you.
Yeah, you know, you got apurpose, you got a future.
And he started.
It was crazy because a dopedealer ministered to me.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
That's insane yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
And the one thing he told me though it was crazy he
says you know, go be like yourdad, your dad's a good man.
He knew my dad was a pastor andhe said here's the phone Call
your dad.
I called my dad.
Three days later I was inBridgeport, Connecticut, at the
UTC, the Urban Training Center,which is a part of our Victor
Arch ministry, and I started myjourney, you know.

(06:44):
So I knew my whole conversionsituation was different.
It wasn't like a normalperson's.
You know, God searched me outin my darkest moment, loved on
me.
You know, someone that wasn'tin the right place ministered to
me and I was like I can't denyit, you know, I can't deny it

(07:04):
Like God loved me, rescued me,searched me out, gave me hope
and and honestly I knew he lovedme in that moment to have my
boy tell me that stuff, it onlyhad to be.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
That's why you are able to connect and you know,
impact people that go throughthat, that go through drug
addiction, that go through drugaddiction, that go through even
drug dealing with tattoos andall that stuff.
Like you, you, you embracethose people.
Maybe those are people that getoverlooked or turned away from
other ministries.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
For me, you know, you remember where you come from.
But at the same time our visionhas expanded.
You know, we talk a lot aboutour city and drug addiction is
not just to a culture, it's notjust to an area.
Drug addiction affectseverybody, you know, from
Maryville to Scottsdale, toGlendale.
It's not just in a specificarea, no more.

(07:59):
And I believe God has set us upfor that.
You know, because if you wereto ask your church or anybody's
church, do you guys know anybodywho does drugs?
Majority of the church willraise their hands because that's
a plan of the enemy.
So he sets up different peoplewith different missions, and I
think he knew us during thistime.
I believe that we're going tobe effective and we have a big

(08:24):
heart for everybody.
You know, uh, in our churchit's not just one group, it's a
it's, it's multicultural.
You know, not only that, but itit also has different levels of
um, different backgrounds, andwe we got what's interesting
about the church is we got gcustudents, yeah, asu students,

(08:45):
sitting next to people that usedto be from the neighborhood,
sitting next to the councilwomanof Glendale, and God has
blessed us like that.
But I like what Pastor TommyBarnett says.
He says reach people nobodywants.
God will give you peopleeverybody wants.
And if we stay close to theheart of God, you know he's
going to bring people in,because the thing that connects

(09:08):
us all is purpose.
That's so true.
We're very big on the purposethat God has created us for and
and I love it because it was ourmission the last few years is
to have our church look like thecity, and I think if you were
to walk into our church, it does.
It doesn't feel different thanthe city.
It's not just isolated.
You run into every type ofperson.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
That's so good, having your church look like the
city, not because of sin, likewe don't allow society influence
the church.
The church should influencesociety.
But what we're talking abouthere is, you know, I literally
prayed this the other day beforeservice.
You know, we're getting ready,I'm on the guitar and I said in
my mind and in my thoughts I waslike God, I want our church to

(09:52):
look like heaven.
And what does that look like?
When we go to heaven, there'sgoing to be black people,
there's going to be white people, there's going to be Mexicans,
there's going to be Asians,there's going to be old, there's
going to be young.
They're multicultural,multigenerational, from all
types of backgrounds the lawyer,the doctor, the drug dealer

(10:13):
that used to deal drugs.
They all have the sameopportunity to inherit the
kingdom of heaven.
So I was like God and we'regetting there.
We are a multicultural churchas well, family worship center.
My pastor is John Telfoya andDanielle Tafoya.
But I was like God, I want moreof this.
I want to look around and seeTanger outlets.
I want to look around and see.

(10:34):
And then there was a pastorsaid you know, we're reaching
the 40 and under Great, you wantto reach the young people.
But then another pastor saidpastor, you want to be broke
Because you know like you needthe young and then you need the,
the wiser, the elders.
And I always say like the youngpeople are like the fire, you
know, but you need the elders tocontain that fire.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, A hundred percent.
We believe in being amulti-generational church.
You need everybody workingtogether.
You know, the way Jesusestablished the church was that
multi-generational and they metevery need.
You know, and for us I thinkthat's very important because
those that went before us, youshow them honor.
God speaks a lot about honor inthe word and we have people

(11:16):
that have been with us, you know, since the 80s.
We have people that have beenwith us since the 90s and now we
have new families.
But there's some families in ourchurch where there are four
generations in, you know, andand we're not just saving the
first generation, but you know,we believe that not only you get
saved but your entire familygets saved, and we could stay

(11:36):
saved, you know, until Jesuscomes back or we go with the
Lord.
You know, I'm a big believer inthat.
I believe even for us.
My grandpa, you know, got savedin 75 and we all got saved from
that and we're now my kids, myjust baptized my daughter the
other weekend.
I know that was beautiful, yeah, and that's fourth generation,

(11:59):
you know, in our ministry andit's just amazing to see that
God's not just saving onegeneration but God's saving all
generations, and we have some,some older folk in our ministry
and it's just amazing to seethat God's not just saving one
generation, but God's saving allgenerations.
And we have some, some olderfolk in our church and I love
them, honor them, respect them.
They're a big part of whatwe're doing, you know.
But at the same time too, it'sour city's not just young, even
though we live in a young area,our city, there's everybody in

(12:19):
there, you know.
You know, and I think it's abeautiful thing, when you walk
into a sanctuary, when I went topreach at your church, I seen
there's a lot of young people, alot of young adults, but
there's some older people too,that they have the wisdom, they
have the longevity you know theyhave, you know the passion.
Still, they've been doing itfor 20 plus years.
That says something to somebodythat walks in for a year two

(12:46):
years.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
That's a lot of respect, you know.
Yeah, and I remember the otherday somebody that came to visit
us.
They're like, what made me stayhere is because I saw somebody
at the door or serving and hewas full of tattoos all over the
place and I never seen thatgrowing up.
I never seen that at church.
No, and I just felt like, wow,they really embrace anybody and
everybody, you know, and that'swhat made him stay, because he

(13:09):
saw that.
And then there's a study thatsays that people will make their
decision whether they want tostay at that church or not
within the first 15 minutes.
Oh, of course, the worshiphasn't even finished and the
pastor hasn't even preached.
So it's so important, so vital,that you create a culture
amongst your people and thenalso, you know, demonstrate the
love not just with words, butwith actions.
We're talking about Easter, youknow, a great service and all

(13:32):
that stuff, and we're talkingabout being multicultural and
all this.
But that's what people see.
They see the finished product.
Sometimes they don't see theprocess or they don't see the
behind the scenes.
They see the glory, but theydon't see the behind the scenes.
They see the glory but theydon't see the fire, even though
the glory belongs to god.
But you know people don'tunderstand once you grab the

(13:52):
microphone.
Your life is now under amicroscope and we're getting
attacked constantly in aspiritual warfare.
What are the cons and the prosof you being a pastor and
serving all these years andcoming from previous generations
that pastored as well?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
I think it's for me.
I understood the cost, like Iwas preaching the other day and
I told the church how, when yousay there's two yeses you have
in serving the Lord, your firstyes is salvation.
Your second yes is to yourcalling.
I was talking about Peter, how,when Jesus called him, he said
I'm going to make you fishers ofmen.

(14:27):
But then they had the wholesituation where he denies Jesus.
Jesus searches him out, findshim Backward.
He was doing his fishing, right.
But then he had a differentmessage.
He didn't say I'm going to makeyou a fisher of men, he told
them.
He said do you love me?
Yes, do you love me?
Yes, feed my sheep, feed mylambs, feed my sheep.
But then he had to say yes tothe second part, which a lot of
people don't like to say yes to.

(14:47):
He said when you were young,you dressed yourself, you did
things as you wanted to do, butif you follow me, this is what's
going to happen.
They're going to take you toplaces you don't want to go.
Follow me.
I think when I got saved,growing up, seeing everything I
seen, my yes wasn't just tosalvation, but my yes was also

(15:10):
to the cost, because there's acost to it.
Right, you know it's not theeasiest of things, but it's the
most fulfilling thing, and I'drather do something that's
fulfilling than search my entirelife and it holds no purpose
for me.
You know, and and yeah, thereare pros and cons to to to doing

(15:31):
what we do, but the biggestthing we could hold onto is that
we're seeing lives changed.
You know, people that werebroken are now being put back
together, families that didn'tlook like a possibility of
making it.
Now they have hope in thefuture, just to see the son
restored to their parents.
You know, maybe they may havebeen on drugs or someone may not

(15:52):
have that lifestyle, but theyjust didn't know Jesus, you know
.
So I think it's the mostrewarding thing.
Yes, it does have his trials,you know it does have his
tribulations, but that comeswith it.
You know that comes with it.
You know that comes with thecost of pastoring and leading.
Not everybody's called to be aleader, not everybody's called
to be a pastor, not everybody'scalled to live under the

(16:14):
microscope, as you could say.
But when you do accept it andyou're called to it, I believe
there's a lot of grace and favortowards your life.
You're able to hold onto thingsas far as carry things that
you're intended to carry.
But then, when the things gettoo hard, you cast your burdens
on him and he's able to see youthrough.

(16:34):
There's moments where it's beenhard for me.
I'm not going to lie where it'sit was tough.
You know you hate to see peoplego.
You hate to see.
You know you know people.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
How do you guard your heart from that, from the pain
or, you know, from not becomingbitter, upset and angry when you
invest a lot of time, eventreasure, with somebody and then
you get attached to them?
Sometimes you build bonds, youbuild relationships, and you're
doing it from a pure heart,you're doing it with the best or

(17:06):
greatest intention in the world, yeah, and you think they're
there and have your back andthey love you back, but then
they end up leaving abruptly.
How do you, how do you guardyour heart from not becoming
bitter?
I?

Speaker 1 (17:20):
I think you have to, for me it's you have to.
For me it's you have to put thepurpose behind it, like people
are going to be people and forme, what I do is I remember why,
our why.
You know, I think peoplekeeping people as to how, but if
you want to understand your whyis like, okay, it's for God to
do the work, cause it's notnothing we do.

(17:41):
Yeah, you know, if they could,if if they could do that to
Jesus.
I'm levels, levels behind Jesus.
I'm not Jesus Christ man and ifpeople are willing to turn
their back on him and they'veseen it personally, they've seen
him do miracles.
You look at Judas andeverything he's seen and he

(18:05):
still sold them out.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
This is crazy.
At least Judas got paid for it.
Some of us be turning our backand betraying Jesus for free.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
You can't take it personal either.
You know like we're vesselsthat God uses to help people.
You know, and if you take itpersonal, you're going to,
you're going to be in for a lotof years ahead of you where
you'd be dissatisfied.
You'll get hurt and then youwon't.
You won't have the ability tohelp people the way you should.
You know, does it hurt for themoment?

(18:37):
Yes, do you still pray for him?
Of course.
Do you still love him?
Yeah, but at the same time, too, God also works in ways where
he may move them on to somethingthat would be effective for
them, or you never know.
You know, so I learned not totake things personal.
You know and understand that welive in a world where people

(18:58):
are going to be people.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
But at the same time too, you never know who you're
going to reach and they'll stayloyal to you.
How do you identify and how youdetermine being wise about not
doing more harm than good whenpastoring somebody honestly?

Speaker 1 (19:14):
I.
I was talking to somebody aboutthis other day how we could
herd people, like you heard.
Okay, you know sheep, or youcould shepherd them and that's
know them individually.
Herding a group of people iseasier because you give out
direction to everybody, but whenyou shepherd, you know them.

(19:35):
You know their strengths, youknow the weaknesses, you know
everything that they're goingthrough, and the Bible clearly
talks about leadership and don'tgive a novice things that they
should not carry.
You know, or new converts, andfor me, I will know your
strength because I worked outwith you.
You know, if you don't knowwhat someone could carry, it's
probably you're not spendingenough time with them.

(19:56):
You know.
So if you were working outtogether, I'll know, okay, he
could push up 205, but anythingpast that he's going to struggle
and I'm going to need to givehim attention.
But if I don't ever work outwith you and you throw that on,
I'm expecting you to do itbecause you're choosing it.
Sometimes people choose weightthey're not supposed to carry,

(20:18):
you know so it's not.
Yeah, the pastor has someresponsibility in it, I feel
that.
But the responsibility is toknow the person and what they
can do, but as well too, theperson has to have a
responsibility too on it.
When they say I struggled withthis last time, maybe if I want
to go do more reps, then Ishould tone it back and go to

(20:41):
185 or 175.
I'm not trying to push out mymax, because my max I'll do less
, but at the same time too, forme, I think that's why
relationships are important.
I'm not going to give somebodya lot of responsibility that I
never seen him put in work oraction before.
I want to know theiradaptability.

(21:02):
I want to know the pressurethey can handle.
I want to know can they makequick decisions and right
decisions?
I want to know do they live alife of wisdom?
This is, besides yourrelationship with God, all that
has to be established, forthat's foundational.
But at the same time too,skills and abilities don't
measure up to your adaptability.

(21:23):
Adaptability for me is huge,because you could be the
smartest guy in the room.
You can know everything aboutthe cameras and all that good
stuff.
But if you can't adapt underpressure, then it's no good man,
you know.
That's the honest truth.
Like you're not going to be cutfrom the same cloth of
leadership, because that's whatG.
I model a lot of stuff afterJesus style leadership.

(21:45):
Yeah, he took the disciplesthrough pressure because he
understood what they're going todo.
After he left was going to be alot of pressure.
That's right yeah.
And he didn't.
He didn't leave them to beuntested.
Wow, he walked through the testwith them.
You got the storm.
He led by example.
Yeah, he is, there was a storm,he.
You got the storm.
He led by example.
Yeah, there was a storm.
He understood the capacity, heunderstood the commitment to the

(22:08):
faith and he calmed the storm.
But that was one of the teststhat they faced.
You know, the feeding of the5,000.
That was another test.
Can you adapt?
You know, okay, what do we have?
Oh, they're hungry.
What do you have?
Yeah, and for me, that thosewere all tests of maturity, yeah
, so if someone's being used outof pocket or they're given

(22:29):
stuff that they should not becaring yet, it's usually due to
a lack of relationship.
That's what it comes down to.
That's true.
And if you're gonna serve in myhouse, I would like to know you
.
That's right.
You know, if you were to makethis your physical home, you
wouldn't just allow randompeople to serve in your house.
There has to be a relationshipthere, man that's so true.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Don't just be someone that herds people, but be a
pastor that shepherds sheep, ohyeah, and you have to get to
know your sheep.
Just how the sheep must learnand get to know the voice of his
shepherd, the shepherd mustalso know the weaknesses and the
strength of the sheep that he'sshepherding.

(23:11):
100%, because I think also whatcan happen is, I think, that
people make decisions a lot oftimes based off inspiration.
You're inspired, but alsothrough desperation.
We are lacking teachers, we arelacking musicians.
We are like musicians.
We're lacking all this.
Someone comes along, you seetheir talents, but talent
without good character isdangerous and I think sometimes

(23:34):
we can also even confuseanointing with talent, with
gifting.
But I think that we need to becareful.
I don't even know why I'mkilling myself, but pastors need
to be careful on, you know,building that relationship and
getting to know the character,because, honestly, I think I'm
realizing that you know morethan talent.
I prefer integrity, honesty,responsible individuals that are

(24:01):
also teachable and humble, thatdon't have a sense of pride,
the negative pride.
I'd rather work with thosepeople that maybe with somebody
that they're very talented butthey lack a lot of character.
What type of leadership advicehave you been able to give other
pastors that you know have beeninstrumental in their walk with

(24:25):
Christ?

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, to address what you're saying about a void,
usually that's when we makemistakes.
You know it's smaller.
Everybody's serving everywhereand just because there's a
vacancy doesn't mean that wehave to fill it.
You know, god will always raisesomebody up, the right people.
That's good.
You know our job is not to fillthe voids.

(24:48):
You know our job is to raise uphealthy people, you know, and
if they're healthy, people thatserve the Lord, then
automatically God's going topush them towards their giftings
and what they're created for.
Sometimes we get so in a rush tobuild we don't look at the
plans, and maybe the plans thatministry might be six months

(25:08):
down the road or a year down theroad, but we want it because
this church has it, or we wantit because this guy is doing it,
but we don't have the samekitchens to reproduce those
recipes.
Wow, come on somebody.
Yeah, it's like you're workingwith a different kitchen.
You want that, but you're notgoing to get that with what you
got.
So our job is to develop ourkitchens, not the recipe.

(25:30):
Recipes are the word of God,man, you know our job is to
develop the kitchen.
Okay, what is our kitchen like?
We want that, but we need this.
So let's build that so we canhave it every day, not just once
, every celebration.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Just once, every celebration that's so good.
I told Victor the producer.
I told him I don't just want tomake movement, I want to make
progress.
I don't just want to be busy, Iwant to be effective.
Yeah.
So how can I be an effectiveleader today, in the sense of
doing what I got to do for theLord, do what I got to do for
ministry, but also notsacrificing my family, not just

(26:04):
being here and there?
How do I delegateresponsibility?
How do I entrust my people?
And I love what you said rightnow, that just because there's a
void doesn't mean you have tofill it.
That is so powerful, that'strue.
God will provide Jireh, myprovider.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
No, for me.
I think a big part ofleadership is what we're talking
about there God will bringsomebody, and not only bring
somebody, but God gives us theability to raise up disciples.
I think that's a big topic.
That has to be talked about isdiscipleship, because there's a

(26:38):
lot of expectation but not a lotof discipleship.
And even like for yourself,you're talking about releasing
or empowering.
That comes through discipleship.
Yeah, you know, like I wastelling one of the young guys
the other day, like okay, yougot married, you know, you're
doing this, you're doing great,you know.
But at the same time too, youwant to focus on that, which I
understand a hundred percent.
But at the same time too, tofree yourself up is to disciple,

(27:03):
you know.
So if you're not spending timewith people and giving them
their heart, you're going to domore fixing than building,
because you're not going to meetyour expectations, they're not
going to, they're not going toknow the plan because they don't
have your heart.
So so you let them do it, butthen you have to come back and
fix it.
Imagine you do leadershipwithout always having a fix and
you just could build.
But that could only happen ifyou trust the people and the

(27:26):
trust comes through discipleship.
You know leadership is not I'm.
I've been saving, serving theLord since August 21st of 2003.
The leader I am today took allthose years, you know.
So it's like you expect thisguy to walk into the church
Knowing all these things.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
It doesn't work that way.
You got to build them up.
You got to be patient.
Oh, patience, man.
Yeah, you got to be patientwith people.
You got to give room for themto learn and not always come to
their aid in fixing things, andthat means you have to allow
them to fail.
Oh, a hundred percent.
If not, they're going to havethe expectation that you're
going to fix everything all thetime.
So you got to have that roombecause you have to have

(28:09):
teaching points.
Jesus worked through teachingpoints, you know.
He knew, he knew everything andhe still allowed his disciples
to do certain things so he couldteach them after.
You know, and for us, we haveto have that room, you know, to
allow people to know, tounderstand, to feel it
personally, and I think thatcomes through the having the

(28:31):
heart of discipleship.
Leadership is discipleship,there's nothing around it.
Wow, leadership is working withsomebody, investing in them,
praying with them.
I thank God because my dadtaught me that at a young, young
age, when I first got back outof school Bible school he would
have me do all the calls, thelate night calls going for
people, having people over thehouse.

(28:53):
He's like who are you going tohave over this week?
What do you do?
What does your discipleshipschedule look like?
Wow, discipleship schedule looklike wow, discipleship, yeah,
not not just normal schedulewhich you're responsible for,
but who you're pouring out inman, and honestly, I keep that
to this day.
That's why I'm able to have agood marriage.
I'm able to be present with my,my kids.
Being a dad, I'm able to spendtime with the leadership able to

(29:16):
to help build an awesome church.
But the ingredient behind allthat is discipleship.
You know, you want to move themasses, move, like even for me,
like we're talking about how apastor's responsibility by the
same time too it's theleadership's responsibility too,
to disciple.
It's not just the seniorspastors, as you grow, there's

(29:36):
levels to it, you know, and youempower the ministerial staff,
you empower the tier leaders,you empower all these other
people to have the same heart asyou.
But what does that stem back toDiscipleship.
So you're discipling yourministerial staff, you're
discipling your leadership group, you're discipling the
influencers because you wantthem to spread the heart of the

(29:56):
church or the culture of thechurch.
What are the influencers?
The influencers are those thatI believe God is raising up, but
they're still getting worked on, they're still getting shaped
and molded.
You know there's someinfluences in our church where I
think that God has given them avoice.
It just needs to be carved outa little bit.
You know, like you're talkingabout character, integrity and

(30:18):
all that.
You know when somebody's in aroom, they carry something.
You know I watch people a lotand I'm like, okay, he's
carrying something, I'll go to arestaurant that person's
carrying.
They walk different.
They talk different.
Their posture is different.
It's a gift that God has giventhem.
Some of us have to work at it,but others God has gifted them
in that area to carry that.

(30:39):
You know that they're in theroom if they're there, and but a
lot of those people have to beshaped and that's where
discipleship comes.
When I go look at a youthministry or a young adult
ministry when I was a youthpastor for a while, I'll look at
who's leading the circles.
Let me win those ones and if Ican work with those ones, I get
the six or 10 that are followingthat Wow.

(30:59):
And if I could work with thoseones?
I get the six or ten that arefollowing that wow, you know.
So you have to have the abilityto understand that, but at the
same time, too, you have to havethe maturity not to give an
influencer who hasn't beenmolded more power than what they
they should have, moreinfluence than what they should
have what are the dangers ofthat?

Speaker 3 (31:14):
what?
What can happen if you give aposition to an influencer that
is still needing to be carved up, that still needs the DNA of
the church?
What can happen?

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Oh, you poison the waterhole.
That's what you do, becauseyou're centering everything
around a culture and if theydon't have your heart, they
could break up the culture.
The one thing I learned is youhave to guard the chemistry at
all costs.
And if someone is like this, ifyou have to guard the chemistry
at all costs, and if someoneit's like this, if you have a
church or you have a ministryand you give somebody enough
leeway I'm not talking about I'mtalking about opportunity to

(31:50):
grow You're going to have allthat.
But if they're going indifferent directions than what
the church is doing, the houseain't moving together.
So this is why the influencershave to have the heart of the
church, because the church willbe at a standstill.
You got to have everybodymoving in the right direction.
What is that?
In our church?
What we do is we do culturenights where we yeah, we talk

(32:11):
the same language.
We talk about the months.
This is this month.
What we're going to attack,what we're going to accomplish.
This is the goals to attack.
What we're going to accomplish.
This is the goals, this is whatwe're going to be saying as the
verbiage, this is the target,and we address everything on
culture night we plan, we do itfor four weeks.
We have another culture night,do the same thing.
Everything's moving accordingto plan.
But if no one in the ministryknows the culture and you allow

(32:34):
influencers to come in and startmoving the church in different
directions and it's not theheart or the anointing of what
God has created you for, you'renot really going to do much
because you're going to have tofix things more than build
things.
And for me, I rather masterthree to four things and try to
master everything, becausethere's always a church or
somebody that's doing somethinggreater than you Like.

(32:56):
For our church we don't have afeed, the homeless ministry we
don't.
Yeah, you know, I would ratherpartner in the city with
somebody that's already winningand send our church over there
to help assist with this personhas established, than trying to
do it all on my own, because ifGod didn't create, then I could
pull the whole vision somewhereelse.

(33:17):
I love that.
You know I'd rather concentrateon the things that are
according to us and then we'llassist.
You know there's going to besome people in your church that
have a heart for certain things.
That doesn't mean that you haveto push the direction for it.
You could partner with anotherperson in the city that's
already doing it.
They're already established.
You don't have to start a 501c3.
You don't have to, you know,build a whole ministry around it

(33:41):
, because it's going to takeaway from what God has called
you to do.
That's good, you know.
I'd rather partner with otherpeople that are winning, because
maybe you started up and itdoesn't win.
What does that tell you?
You know like, hey, we failedat this.
Guys, you know, I would rather.
Okay, we're going to send them50 people over here, we're going
to send 100 over here.
We're going to help back upthis community event, whatever
we've got to do, and that willbring winning to your team too,

(34:01):
because they experiencedsomething good this person has
been doing 25 years.
Yeah, you want to be a part ofa winning team.
I don't want to establishsomething.
I don't have to, you know.
So we concentrate on a fewthings in our church and we're
like let's get really good atthose things and let's become
the best that we can.
Everything's centered aroundthose few things, and if
somebody's in the city that doesit better, hey, we'll help you

(34:24):
out.
Right, you know?
Right.
So I yeah, too many people tryto master everything and then
they don't.
They don't become the fullpotential with their creative to
do.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
And I love that.
You guys, you know that comesfrom a place of you know,
humbleness and understandingyour value and not being
threatened.
Yeah, like you know, I seeDavid all the time.
I'm like man, I love seeing youLike you're like a part-time
FWC member, but we're justjoking around.
But you know it's just likethere's divine partnerships.

(34:54):
Yeah, because you know Godgives us territories.
I see pastors, like you knowKings and they're giving a
kingdom.
You know Phoenix, tullis andLevine, all for the same purpose
To work together simultaneouslydoing the Lord's will.
And if they have that area downand experience, then let's work

(35:16):
with them.
We're not in a competition,we're on the same team and
that's to save souls, makedisciples or to bring those who
are far from God closer to him.
Right, so you've done so manythings.
You've you've preached, you'rea great communicator.
You you've been to differentplaces, out of state, in the
state.
I don't know if you probablyother countries as well, other

(35:38):
countries, but you know peoplesee the man on fire, the man of
God.
But has it always been likethat?
Have you always served God withthat tenacity?
Or has there ever been a momentin your life where you know
your faith was?

Speaker 1 (35:56):
questioned.
Oh yeah, well, on this journeywe, we're all gonna face things
that try to break us.
You know the.
If you're not, if the enemy'snot trying to break you, then I,
I would ask, like, okay, theones the devil desired to break,
god used the most.
You know he said hey, rememberwhen he told peter a that the
enemy wants to sift you.

(36:16):
Yeah, yeah, you know the trialand test is coming Be ready yeah
.
And then he said you're going todeny me.
But then what I love aboutJesus's statement there he says
but when you come back,strengthen your brothers, when
you go through hell, you'regoing to come back and be a
testimony.
You know, yeah, there's momentswhere you're on your high.

(36:38):
When I was in youth ministry, Idid it for 10 years I had the
privilege of serving on the ganginternational team that's our
youth ministry and young adultteam, student ministry team and
I got to go to Europe quite afew times, been to, of course,
mexico, south America, allthroughout the States and, yeah,
that was a fun time, man, butwas it always that high?

(36:59):
No, you have your times whereyou go through it and and and if
you're not going through, forme I'm like man.
I thank god for those moments,you know, because they made me
better.
I thank god for those momentsbecause it really everything I
was preaching or teaching I hadto absorb and live, live out,
out.
You know you talk about faith,talk about going through it.

(37:20):
Everybody wants to talk aboutbeing a David and you know
killing giants.
You know everybody wants totalk about, hey, I'll step out
on faith and do this, butthere's moments where you're
going to be tested on that,whatever you're saying.
And I know God has a calling onour lives, so I know the pain
is going to be great, you knowdid you handle the test of?

Speaker 3 (37:37):
you know you were talking to me before we got on
set about.
You know that hardship that youwent through with your wife.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh, yeah, honestly, that was probably the biggest
pivot my life has ever taken.
We've been married for a while,you know.
We have three beautifuldaughtersina isabella, natalia
and um.
Being a being, uh, being me, Iwanted a son, you know, and uh,

(38:08):
my wife gets pregnant.
You know, she has uh, and notonly she pregnant, but then when
we go to the doctor, uh, she'scarrying twins.
And I was probably in the thehighest season you're talking
about being high, high, high asfar as you're on the mountaintop
.
I was on my mountaintop andthen something didn't feel right
, you know, and we went to thedoctor and immediately they

(38:32):
wanted to do a bunch of tests.
Wow, and you already know, likesomething's going wrong.
Yeah, the last appointment was25 minutes, this appointment's
two hours and they're having usgo to specialists.
So I started praying.
During that season there was alot of healing in our church.
God has gifted us with theability to lay hands on the sick

(38:52):
and during that time I seenpeople with cancer get healed.
I seen people with hepatitis Cget healed.
I'm seeing miracles, man, andwhen we started feeling a
certain type of way, I wouldpray for my wife, expecting a
healing like the ones I wasseeing at church and it never
happened.
And it was probably the hardesttest for me.

(39:16):
I didn't want to do this nomore.
You know, that's to be honest,because it felt like I got hurt
again.
The reason why I stuck I wentto the, what I was doing when my
grandma passed is because Ilet's rewind.
I I left, I guess, the the willof God because he didn't heal

(39:43):
my grandma.
I come back.
God gives us the gift to layhands on the sick.
I didn't want to lay hands onthe sick because that's what
drove me away.
Yeah, like, why are you goingto use me with something I
struggle with?
You know, like it didn't workfor my grandma, so why are you
going to use me now for this?
Yeah, so I had that to overcome.
Then we started seeing healings.

(40:04):
I overcame that.
God, god gave me courage andgave me, uh, gave me the, the
passion for it, passion, yeah.
And then when that happened totiana, tiana and the babies
didn't get made, well, it hurt,man, it hurt when she lost them.
That was one of the hardesthits that I faced personally.

(40:31):
You know, to be honest, I itwas hard for me to pray because
I was like you're doing all thisfor everybody else.
What about me?
You know, you healed thisperson.
What about what?
I work for you and I had a hardconversation with God.
I, I do every.
I give him my life for you.
I do this, I do that, I do this, I do that, and I had a whole

(40:52):
list.
Wow, and it was like God wassilent man and it hurt.
It really did hurt.
You know, I stopped preachingfor a little while.
I was isolating myself, yeah,made some bad decisions.
You know, as far as and there'sa lot of things in my heart
that man, I was just gettingfurther and further away and it

(41:24):
got scary, because I love God,was just mad at him.
Yeah, but I didn't want to makea mad season become a permanent
season.
Wow, that's key, right there.
Yeah, so I would still pray,even though I didn't feel like
he was in the room.
I'll still pray.
When I did, I think I prayedmore on my car than I ever had.
You know, I saw on his, yeah,and I was driving right back
there on 107th and Broadway.
I go fishing back there and Iremember I had it out.

(41:47):
You know, God, let me speakfreely and finally, at the end
of the prayer, I asked are youeven with me?
Do you even care?
Wow, because I don't feel likedoing this no more.
Or where are you at?
Because I don't feel like doingthis no more.
Or where are you at?
And I remember so clearly thatI never felt the peace of God
like I felt in that moment whereGod's presence was so elevated.

(42:10):
In that car I started crying.
You know, all was broken.
It felt like he wrapped hisarms around me, man, and in my
heart he spoke.
He said I never left you, Ialways been with you and I'll
always be with you.
And that moment really sent meon a different trajectory.

(42:35):
I would say I needed him and hewas there.
Did it hurt?
Did I have?
Honestly, I think everythinghappens for a reason, and if the
enemy tries to damage us, godcould turn anything around.
That moment shifted everythingfor me.
I became a better husband,became a better dad, became a

(42:56):
better pastor, became a betterson, became a better brother,
became a better dad, became abetter pastor, became a better
son, became a better brother.
But what was inside of me?
I think I didn't get to tellyou this, but for me there's
always a card that we hold on to.
It was my card that says ifthis doesn't work out, this is

(43:17):
the reason why and it was alwaysin my back pocket and in that
moment where I became vulnerablebefore God, I had to give up
that card.
That's powerful.
I couldn't use the excuseanymore.
It was an excuse.
This is why this is why Imessed up, or this is why I
failed, or this is why I didn'tbecome who I was supposed to

(43:38):
become, because of this member,and usually it's dealing with
pain, or dealing with somethingthat happened when you're young,
or or a disappointment ortrauma.
Wow, and I had that card saythis is why this is your fault.
And I remember in that car Igave him that card and said okay
, god, you could take this.
Well, I don't want to hold thisanything against you.

(44:01):
Like, I have the upper hand.
I want you to heal me, I wantyou to do things.
So pain exposes.
Pain exposes a lot of thingsthat were in my heart.
They expose a lot of thingsthat I may have hid away,
thinking that if I neveraddressed them, then for me I

(44:22):
would never have to deal withthem.
And then, when pain comes toyour door, it's like all the
doors are blown open and I wasable to give that thing to the
Lord and I never felt morefreedom than I feel today
because I gave over that.
One last thing you know, godhas been good to me, god has

(44:42):
seen me through.
But even after all these years,I still had something and I
didn't give it no attention.
It's not like I was after awhile, it's not like you hold it
on purpose, yeah, it's justthat you just don't.
You learn to block it out, youlearn not to deal with it.
That's the area I don't go to.
And then, when it came out,finally, I think that's when I

(45:05):
experienced freedom.
You know, we, we, we had, wehad twins, and they were gone
and did it hurt?
Yes, but did they serve apurpose?
Absolutely Wow.
Even though I never got to meetthem, I I feel that they made
me a better man.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
You know, they grew my faith you know, but it might
be hard to understand, for theworld to understand.
But you see, you said a keyword, you said it made me a better
husband, or keywords it made mea better husband, maybe a better
father, it made me a better man.
And sometimes we got to lookback and say that had to happen.
Yeah, it had a purpose.

(45:45):
Yeah, my pain was not in vain.
That's true.
There's purpose behind pain,and pain comes with purpose.
And it's just incredible how youknow God will mold us and
change our character.
How you know god will mold usand and and change our character
is it's not until you knowyou'll know the juice if it's
really an orange or a tangerineonce you squeeze it and you see

(46:07):
the, the juice.
And sometimes it's when lifesqueezes us and I'm like I'm
going to understand that it's sotrue because then it prepares
you for the next thing.
There's some things that,because of what I've been
through these past couple years,there's some things that,
because of what I've beenthrough these past couple of
years, there's some things thatdon't faze me anymore.
I'm like that's nothing, thatdon't do me no harm, you know
I'm on this road, but becauseI've been strengthened through

(46:30):
my trials, yeah.
And you said another thing,that you even went through
another process where you had todo a full on CPR on your wife,
oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
But I think you also responded differently when that
happened, yeah, so we lost ourbabies, but then, okay, the
greatest gift that happened outof that was even after
everything happened.
That's when we started ourwhole adoption process for
Hezekiah.
So we lose our twins.
This is God's incredible.

(47:00):
You know, we go through thatwhole situation, and the day we
posted on Instagram, I go checkthe mail because we didn't let
nobody know for a few monthswhat we're going through.
We're just, we're just goingthrough it and we hit it.
Well, I was broken.
I'll still show up.
Smile on her.
I was hurting, though.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yeah, go home, lock myself away, you know did your
church, did the people that youshepherd, did they know that you
were hurt, Like could they feelit, could they see it?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Some did the ones we allowed into the conversation,
but a lot of them didn't.
They knew after the fact, but alot of them didn't.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
They knew after the fact.
What are some things thatpeople can do or say to their
pastor that can help them inmoments like that?
Like, say, I'm somebody that Isee my leaders or my pastor
going through a hardship, goingthrough a moment.
What is something that maybe Ican tell them or do that will
help them through those moments?

Speaker 1 (47:59):
I think that the best thing that you can do because
it wasn't really the words thathelped me, it was more knowing I
wasn't facing it alone it wasthe prayers, it was the taking
time out of their day to send atext or to send something over.
You know, it was the smallthings, it wasn't even the big
things.
It was to say I'm thinkingabout you, you know.

(48:20):
You know it was a small things,it wasn't even the big things,
wow.
It was to say I'm thinkingabout you.
You know, you're in our prayers.
That meant the world to me,right, you know, cause, when
you're sitting there thinkingabout everything and you get
your phone, it's a scripture,it's a pastor.
We love you guys, we're alwayswith you guys.
Those things, those things iswhen I remember yeah, yeah, I
remember those.
I remember everybody who textedme during that time but that

(48:40):
knew and I hold them dearbecause in my darkness they were
still reaching out and for methat meant the world for me.
You know, even today someonewas texting me.
He's another pastor in the areaand he's like, hey, god, put on
my heart to pray for you andyour wife and your kids and your
church and all that.

(49:01):
And I said, bro, I'd take onall the prayers anybody wants to
give me.
You know, stay up for me.
You know, I'll take prayer allday, Right, you know, because if
you pray for me, you love me.
You know, that's just the truth.
If you don't pray for for all,I pray for the church.

(49:22):
Yet you know, I, I, if you saymy name before god, I'll, you
mean more than what you couldimagine to me.
You know, you're taking mebefore the lord, my name before
god, and I appreciate that a ton.
And it was during those momentswhere I, I, I felt the love of
the church.
Those that knew not everybodyknew.
So I couldn't expect that fromeverybody, but this time you
handled it.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
Oh yeah, 100.
What is it that that occurred?
Those that knew Not.
Everybody knew, so I couldn'texpect that from everybody.
But this time you handled itdifferently.
Oh yeah, 100%.
What is it that occurred forthose that don't know?

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, okay, so we lose the babies and then the day
we posted it, we get a letterfor adoption for Hezekiah that's
our son, it's confirmed.
We go through that wholeprocess.
It takes like nine months.
We go to court.
It it's confirmed.
We go through that wholeprocess.
It takes like nine months.
We go to court.
It was online during that time.
We pick him up it was March18th, I believe March 18th.

(50:06):
We go to Bakersfield to pick upmy son.
He's our son, hezekiah AriTavor.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
I love his blood and death you know, producer, can
you put the picture real quickof his family, just so the
people Look at that beautiful?

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, that's Kai right there, and Bella, leni and
Nati, my beautiful wife, tianaAmazing.
So Kai was a blessing to us andGod, god, there's other
families that were going tocourt for it and everything.
But God blessed us and so Iknew his promises were true.

(50:43):
But then Tiana gets pregnantagain and I'm a little more
nervous this time, yeah, youknow, cause I'm like it didn't
work out good last time.
Sure enough, she's.
She's further along and we seethe signs.
I'm not talking to God the way Iwas talking to him before.
I'm just I'm praying to liketake care of my wife, take care

(51:06):
of my wife, take care of my wife, and that was my whole prayer.
You know, I, you startunderstanding sovereignty of God
a little different.
When you go through hell.
You know Wow and um, I rememberpraying that and then she loses
the baby oh, my God, yeah, andshe loses a lot of blood and

(51:29):
she's fading in and out.
We're calling the doctors andeverything, and and then she
just goes out on me or shestarts turning, you know, purple
, or lips get white and I Icould feel her gone, like I'm
holding her, her life is, yeah,she just folded over and I
remember I wanted to scream sobad Like don't leave me, don't

(51:51):
leave me, please don't leave me.
And my daughter, my oldest, wasawake during that time.
She calls 911.
Her mother is there.
She's freaking out, you know,and I remember I I got her on
the floor, brought her back andit was probably the scariest
moment of my life, and not onlydid we lose our baby, but I

(52:13):
almost lost my wife on the sameday.
That's crazy, you know, and Ididn't respond like the way I
responded last time.
Paramedics, they got theirGoodyear paramedics and got for
them.
They got there within threeminutes.
She was breathing at the timemy daughter was giving me
instruction over the phone.
I lift her legs up, get bloodto her head, you know.
So she's not without oxygen.

(52:34):
You know the blood carriesoxygen.
So I'm doing everything thedoctor or the paramedics are
saying on the phone, literallymy daughter, my oldest daughter,
seeing everything, her mom'sright there, israel, help her,
please, she comes back, shecomes too, yeah.
And it's like okay, don'twhatever you got to do, fight.
You know, whatever you got todo, fight.
We hear the ambulance comingdown the street.

(52:55):
They come in, they take herright away.
They fill her with fluids.
You know she.
They had to give her six bagsof blood at the hospital.
She lost a ton of blood.
Man, that's crazy.
They kept her in there for aweek, yeah.
But even after all that, herparents went, followed her.
I had to get situate.

(53:15):
The family, her parents, wentwith her to the hospital and I
remember the first thing I did Iwent to the room and I thanked
God Big difference than when Iresponded the first time I went
to the room, I said thank youGod, because you kept my wife.
Wow, I'm not, I'm not in in.
Yeah, we lost our baby.
I'm going to see my baby oneday, you know when we get to

(53:44):
heaven.
But I couldn't imagine losing mywife and I remember I was so
grateful to the Lord because ofthat, like he didn't take her,
you know.
And it was this.
It was a moment that showed meand God spoke to me the first
time you didn't do too well.
The second time you did a lotbetter, wow.
And like I told you, I'll neverleave you.

(54:05):
I'm always here, I'm alwaysgoing to be here for you.
And I remember I felt thereassurance and even after that,
it was probably the most I everpursued the plan of God.
Wow, I've been running like Inever ran before.
I'm older now I've been servingthe Lord for a minute now.
I've been pastoring for a longtime now and I think these last

(54:27):
three years I have been mostalive.
These last three years I havehave run like I never ran before
.
I have loved like I never lovedbefore, and it comes from the
acceptance of God's sovereignty,but as well to the gratefulness
.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
I have a question when it comes to God's
sovereignty, but I just want togive this quick input.
I don't think the settingschange, but I think our
perspective and our point ofview does.
We can see things from thelevel, ground level, or we can
see them from the mountaintop,and I think sometimes you said,
these past three years I havebeen the most alive, and I think
that also comes from a sense ofgratitude.

(55:05):
I think gratitude is extremelyimportant.
Sometimes we go through certainthings so we are reminded of
the blessings.
Oh yeah, sometimes we're alwaysfocused on what we want and we
lose touch with what we alreadyhave.
Yeah, and you you know I canelaborate to what you were
talking about with your wifewent through a similar season

(55:26):
where my wife almost lost herlife as well.
No, gave birth to my baby girl.
I love her hadassah.
She's six months.
But you know, a couple dayslater they found that there was
some placenta in there orsomething had happened, and she
gets an infection and it almostspreads to her blood.
But in that moment I got torealize how much I love my wife,
oh yeah, how much she means forme.

(55:47):
I tell my wife I could livewithout my mom, but I don't know
if I would be in been able tolive without you 100% and when.
I always remember this when itcomes to gratitude.
My wife one day, I don't knowwhere we were driving and she
said, ezekiel, imagine iftomorrow we only wake up with
the things we thank God for.
What would we wake up with?
Would we wake up with our cars,with our house, but, more

(56:08):
importantly, would we still haveour children?
You know, what would we have?
What would we wake up with?
And I just put a lot of thingsinto perspective.
You know, gratitude has nothingto do with what we have.
It has everything to do withour hearts and I think sometimes
God will mold us and he willshape us and he will put things

(56:30):
into perspective and put thingsback into its priorities.
You know, I think it had tohappen because, as tough as it
may seem, maybe, if you know goddidn't take your twins and have
them in his presence, maybehezekiah would have never been
adopted.
I don't know.
Yeah, there's a lot to it.

(56:50):
Yeah, maybe a lot of things.
You only know what transpiredafterwards.
Now, sovereignty I thinksometimes we don't understand
sovereignty.
Can you explain whatsovereignty is?
And also, can you also explainto those people that maybe not
understand and say why do badthings happen to good people?

Speaker 1 (57:14):
I was listening to somebody talk about this the
other day and he says a commentthat really got me thinking.
He said there's only one person.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
That's good as jesus, and we hang them on the cross.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Yeah yeah, and and for us it's like sometimes we
feel we're good but we're reallynot good.
You know, it's like if we livein a fallen world, what's there
to expect?
You know, there's demons anddevils.
There's if the ones that camefrom God first Adam and Eve and
they still found some way tomess it up.

(57:51):
You know, things are just goingto happen.
That's a part of life, you know.
But the thing that we're ableto trust into is what Christ did
on the cross.
You know, is it hard to acceptit sometimes?
Yes, we had my friend.
He just he passed away fromcancer.
We were able to do his funeralabout a month and a half ago.

(58:13):
I Sorry about your loss.
Yeah, he was a great friend ofmine and I remember going to his
house and I prayed and fastedand did everything I could.
I go, I'm going to go to thisman's house and we're going to
lay hands and God, you're goingto move.
I was fired up.
Yeah, I get to his house andI'm ready to go, like God about

(58:34):
to have a moment right now.
You know God's to have a momentright now.
You know god's gonna do hiswork right now and he told me
sit down, let's watch the game.
I'm like your friend told youyeah, sit down, let's watch the
game.
I'm like, do you want me topray for you?
Or like I have all thesemoments, yeah.
And then he's like I alreadyknow what's gonna happen and I

(58:54):
was like, okay, are you gonnayou going to be okay?
He's like, yeah, I'm going tobe healed, like okay, so how's
it going to happen?
He's like I already know I'mgoing to heaven.
Wow, so pretty much, he told me.
He's like, while we're here,let's watch the game together.
So you don't want me to pray?
He's like no, how did you?

Speaker 3 (59:15):
feel in that moment.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
I'm telling you you, everything was shocking for me.
Like right, okay, you want meto pray?
No, let's just sit and watchthe game.
I want to spend some time withyou, like okay.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
But you know like sometimes we like to give super,
uh, spiritual answers like, oh,you know, god's will not, but
how did you feel he's acceptingit?
Right?
He's like I'm going to heaven,but you love this.
Oh yeah, this friend of yours,you know you guys have bonds and
how do you feel, and how do youaccept God's will?
Like, what did you feel in thatmoment?

Speaker 1 (59:46):
I'm like if he could look death in his eyes and still
be okay because Jesus iswalking him through, I go.
It took everything out of me,like, okay, he's not afraid.
I ought to be afraid, I thinkin those moments, you know, he
asked for two things, not evenprayer.
He said can someone take careof my wife, one of the women in

(01:00:11):
the church.
And he said Israel, don'tforget about my kids.
So, okay, powerful, yeah, wegot you on that.
We'll pray, we'll keep themclose.
We'll pray, we'll keep themclose, we'll stay connected.
All that he's.
All, yeah, he's, I'm going tobe healed, though he's, he's a
watch, I'm going to be healedand I'm like, I'm still wrapping
my mind around it, I.
And then, so we sat there andwatched the game, you know, and

(01:00:43):
the healing prayer is I think Idid it more for him too.
I was like I thank you for myfriend.
Even in his last chapter, he'sstill teaching me something.
You know, even in his finaldays, he still loves me enough
to give me wisdom.
That's incredible.
Yeah, wisdom I wouldn't havegot if he would have said, yeah,

(01:01:04):
I prayed and everything wentthe way it went.
He said I accepted it is.
Then he just looked at me like,like, like nothing was wrong.
He said let's just watch thegame.
Man, I'm like.
So I'm sitting here with a manwho's content with the will of
God, wow, and he's okay with it,because a lot of us, I think we
get it mixed up.
Where we want to storetreasures up here on earth, we,
a lot of us, I think we get itmixed up.

(01:01:24):
Where we want to storetreasures up here on earth, we
want to make more memories, wantto do all that.
And he's like I accepted it andI accepted what God wants to do
.
And then he'll tell me too.
Even a few people have said canyou tell me about heaven?
You know, and we'll remind eachother in those moments, like
that's where we want to go.
We fight so hard to stay hereon this earth, but in to go, we

(01:01:47):
fight so hard to stay here onthis earth, but in all reality,
we want to go to heaven.
I want to go to heaven.
You know it's in his timing, soyou accept it.
You know like, whatever hewills he's going to do, you know
, and, and there's some choicesthat have to be made in it, by
the same time too, it's learningto accept whatever God has.

(01:02:09):
The Bible says that if you're inhis righteous right hand, he
has total control of your life.
That's what his righteous righthand means, and if we're in his
righteous right hand, whetherhe's carrying us through a storm
, he's carrying us through thevalley, he's carrying us through
victory, he's carrying us tothe mountaintop.
As long as we're in God's hands, that's where we desire to be.
There was a message I preacheda while back, talking about

(01:02:29):
Moses, and I talked about thepromise, how we get so
infatuated, the promise that weforget about the presence.
Wow, and even Moses came to aplace where he says, where God
tells him this.
He said go ahead and go, I'llgrant you the promised land
because I told your forefathers,but if your presence is not
with me?

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
But I'm not going to go with you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
I'm going to give you what you're asking, but I'm not
going.
Wow, and Moses goes.
Okay, if you're not there, Idon't want to be there.
Wow, you know, and for us.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
Isn't that powerful, like it's hard to interrupt you,
but like what do you want more?
Do you want the promise or doyou want my presence?
Yeah, and that kind of remindsme a little bit when I was
praying to God.
I was like God, I want to be ata church, I want to get rooted.
I was doing this and doing thatand I was doing the right thing

(01:03:22):
the wrong way, like I wasn'tsubmitted Right and I was
praying to God like lead me tothe right church, lead me to the
right pastor.
And when I was praying to God,like, lead me to the right
church, lead me to the rightpastor.
And when I was praying, I wasvisiting here and there and you
know these are the few times Idon't say I hear God audibly all
the time.
But this time I heard do youwant the platform or do you want
my presence?
And so I knew where I wasdesignated to be.

(01:03:46):
It's so powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Like for me, I'd rather be in the presence.
That's what Rick's situationwas.
He's like I want the presence,I don't want the healing.
Wow, because the presencethere's healing man, whether
it's here on earth or in heaven.
Great, you know.
And when I started sitting back,I even told my wife on the way
home I go.
That was different, you know.
Yeah, I literally sat with aman that was not going to be

(01:04:12):
here in a few days and he wasgood with it.
He was content.
Yeah, he was good with goingwith Jesus.
And I had to ask myself am Igood going with Jesus right now
or do I?
Am I chasing the promise?
And I'm like man, my prayersare a little different, you know
.
My faith grew, you know.

(01:04:33):
But at the same time too, Iunderstand that he has a will,
he has a journey and he's goingto do what he wants to do with
us or without us.
You know we're not the maincharacter.
I think a lot of times we wantto be the main character in
God's story and God's likeyou're not the main character,
boss, because if I take you,somebody else can be raised up
to do what you thought you weresupposed to do.

(01:04:55):
You know, the story doesn't endwith you, the story doesn't end
with me, the story didn't endwith him.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
And it didn't start with us?
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
So we get so infatuated with the characters
because we idolize heroes, notknowing that Jesus is the hero
of everything.
Wow, you know, we're tellingthe other person another day
about okay, everybody wants toslay giants and it was funny
because I was hearing some stuffon it.
I like preaching on King David,yeah, but the way this
individual said it, he said hesaid everybody wants to be David

(01:05:23):
.
Right, they want to slay agiant, he's like.
But you ain't David, he's likeyou're.
You're one of the soldiers thatare scared on the side.
Everybody wants to be the.
We're fascinated with heroesand he was saying he's like
there's possibly no way we couldbe David.
He said Jesus, Jesus, that'sthe representation where, when
he steps on the field, defeatsthe enemy, we're allowed to come

(01:05:46):
on the battlefield because ofwhat Jesus did.
You know, and some of us, wewant to make ourselves the
heroes.
We're never the hero of thestory.
Jesus gets all the glory andit's because of what he does.
We can't defeat the enemy byourselves.
It's because of what Jesus didon the cross.
That's true, you know, it'snothing that we do, it's
everything that the Lord hasdone and the Lord is doing that

(01:06:09):
we're allowed to be on thebattlefield.
It's not even our victory.
We're able to share in thevictory because of what Christ
did on the cross.
You know, and some of us, wewant to make oh yeah, he's the
guy.
No, no, no, it's not me.
You know, it's not nothing I do.
It's not even me laying thehands.
It's not nothing I do, it's noteven me laying the hands.
It's us agreeing in faith thatGod can do what he wills and if

(01:06:29):
he heals you, he heals you.
It's not me, it's not ourchurch, it's not the, no, it's
Jesus.
And if we put that inperspective of what God is doing
, a lot of us we wouldn't walkthe way we walk, because our
confidence is what Christ isdoing, not in what we're doing.
We wouldn't get bothered, wewouldn't get.
You know the competition thing,why?

(01:06:49):
Because it's all gee, it's noteven our kingdom, it's the
kingdom of God.
Wow, you know, it's not our,it's not our land, it's not our
people, it's the people of Godand just the stewards.
Oh, yeah, Like so I was.
I was telling my wife the, and Itold her God gave me a
revelation.
Yeah, Share it with us.
She's like what did God tellyou?
I go?
God told me what I am.

(01:07:10):
She's like what are you?
Because we have interestingconversations I go, God told me
the greatest I'll ever be willbe a basket carrier.
And she's like what do you mean?
I go, God showed me I'm abasket carrier.
She said tell me.
So I told her I go, God doesthe miracle.
And we're talking about thefish and the bread.

(01:07:30):
All I do is carry what he'ddone to the people that are in
need.
Wow, it's not me that'smultiplying the fish, or me
that's multiplying the bread.
I just get to carry it from theperson who did it to the person
who needs it.
Wow, you know.
And if I could keep thatperspective, that's good.
Yeah, humility will be, alivein my life.

(01:07:52):
A lot of people want their brandor their name on whatever God
is doing, and we got to rememberthat.
It's because of God that ourchurches are growing.
It's because of God that Godbrings us leaders.
It's because of Jesus that welift his name up.
People come on in the house.
It's not our talents.
It's because of Jesus that welift his name up.
People come on in the house.
It's not our talent, it's noteven our preaching ability.
It's none of that.
What it is is whoeversurrendered to God, surrendered

(01:08:15):
to God.
God wants to fill that house,wow.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
May God forgive us if we try to steal his glory in
any way, shape or form, which itcan be easy, but at the end of
the day, like you said in allreality, we've got to get off
our high horses.
Nobody here in reality is goodwe can't handle that glory.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
We can't.
That's just the honest truth.
We can't handle that type ofglory, because then it gets to
us, you know.
So we have to have thosemoments that keep us in that
humility.
I have a picture of my officewhen I was all messed up.
So every day I walk yeah, whenI was, when I was 19 years old.
I have that picture in thereand it says this is who I was
without Jesus.
Then I have a picture of mepreaching this is who I am with

(01:08:57):
Jesus.
So I'll never forget that youngman.
Amazing, yeah, I'll neverforget that young man, you know.
But at the same time too, eventhe things that we do today is
only because of God, you know,and we got to keep that in the
forefront you know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Do you think that there could be healing without
forgiveness or there must beforgiveness in order to receive
a healing?

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
That's an interesting topic, you know.
I think the forgiveness of sins, yes, because the Bible says
for his stripes we're healed,you know, and and for for us, I
think forgiveness is a big partof that second.
Part of the second, yes, youwould say, because god will heal
us.
But then also there'ssanctification, where god takes

(01:09:38):
us in the process of changing usand making us holy, you know,
um, the miracle is thatsalvation, you know, when we
saved.
But then there's healing thatdoes take place, whether it's
emotionally, sometimes it'sphysically, you know, but in
order for us to move freely,forgiveness has to be on the

(01:09:58):
priority list of who we are andwhat we do.
Amen, the Bible talks about.
You know, how can we ask forforgiveness if we we're not
willing to forgive those that wesee, those that were around?
And forgiveness is a hard thing.
But I think forgiveness isusually the first step to
freedom.
Sometimes it's forgivingsomebody else, sometimes even

(01:10:19):
forgiving yourself.
You know, some people wake up inthe morning, look at themselves
, consider themselves a failure,and it's hard for them because
they can't forgive what they'vedone in the past, not
understanding what the blood ofJesus can do for them.
Other people have, and it'sit's, by all means it's, it's,
it's understandable.
They, they don't, they can'tforgive somebody because of
something that happened.
But the Bible talks about howforgiveness.

(01:10:43):
It talks about the yokes andthe yokes.
There's some stuff that we'recarrying that we're never
intended to carry, and the devilwould love to see us carry
those things, because we cannever walk to our full potential
if all this weight is on us.
So Jesus says hey, you know,cast your cares on me.
You know, give me that heavyset.
You know, come to me, you know,and for us?

(01:11:06):
I think a lot of peopleexperience freedom once they
experience forgiveness.
And for us, for me, it's likeman, I've been forgiven so much
I should have a whole differentlife man.
So for me to hold a grudge, orfor me to hold something against
somebody, I got to reallyevaluate myself.
That's right, like okay, I wantthe verdict for me to be free,

(01:11:29):
but then I want somebody else topay, you know, and Jesus, like
I just took everything you weresupposed to get.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
You want the verdict to be light on your life but
heavy on someone else's.
That's twisted right there andthat hypocrisy right there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
It's hard, but it is true, though, like cause, but it
is true though, like cause,some people's pains are
different than ours.
I can't speak for a lot ofother people, but I know this
when they do tap into freedom,that their lives change.
That's true, like their worshipchanges, their faith changes,
their journey changes.
Is it easy to do?
By all means?
No.
Is it necessary?
Yes, if you want to pursue whatGod has for you in its entirety

(01:12:04):
.
You know, for me I wanted tolive in freedom.
So, like I was talking aboutthat card, when I gave card,
that card did have the wordforgiveness on it too.
I had to forgive, you know, andI'm living free today because I
learned that in order toexperience, I guess, the true

(01:12:25):
measure of forgiveness, I had todeal with that stuff personally
, and when I forgave, I knewthat God could forgive me.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
Without giving details.
What are some things that youhad to forgive that God made you
free from?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Well, for me, I think it's like when the whole thing
happened with my grandma.
It was bad, it was, it was bad,and we went in a whole
different direction, and I had,I had to forgive others.
I had to forgive myself.
I, I, I put a lot of weight onmyself that I shouldn't be in a

(01:13:01):
kid.
Um, I had to forgive, you know,myself for hurting people and
and even ask for furtherforgiveness.
I had to forgive people whohurt me.
I had to.
You know, whether if I toldthem or if I just presented it
before God, you know, it's justfor me personally, it's um,

(01:13:22):
forgiveness is necessary, man,like.
I live free today because Ilearned that, even though I was
going to new seasons, I wasstill checking in bags that were
supposed to be the last trip,not the current trip.
And god's like I'm waiting onyou.
Hold on, I got another bag, youknow, and we're right there at
the baggage claim picking up allour stuff and it's like.

(01:13:44):
He's like I told you don't, youdon't have to bring nothing.
Yeah, that baggage, yeah, we'rewait, we're waiting right there
.
And then you know we have tocarry it all without.
I have, I have four kids andand a wife who likes to dress
nice, yeah, and I'm little, I'mkai can't help me yet.
So when all these people bringluggages, I'm carrying, you know
, six pieces of luggage andthey're carrying the minimal I.

(01:14:07):
I know what it is to carry someluggage, but God had to tell me
okay, you carry that for them,but then you also carry it for
yourself too, emotionally.
You carry it to.
That bag's been with you sinceyou're eight years old.
That bag's been with you sinceyou're 15 years old.
That bag's been with you andyou have it on this journey and
you're not leave it at the nextstop.

(01:14:28):
Leave it and watch how muchfree when I fly and I don't have
to take no luggage, I'm free.
Oh, my god, that's one of thebest feelings in the world, wow.
But imagine flying that wayemotionally, where you don't
have to carry that stuff on yournext trip, on your next journey
.
But the only way you're able tocheck it in and leave it there

(01:14:50):
is through forgiveness.
Wow, you know, I don't have tocarry that, no more.
And then when you go to thestudio, you have, you know, I
don't have nothing, is there?
There's a difference that you,you move freely, you you're.
And I think, like I said, thelast three years I have been
living my life free, likeIncredible, like man.

(01:15:11):
I'm telling you I'm differentand I wish I would have done
this a long time ago, you know.
But at the same time too,everything does have its purpose
.
Wow, and I tell the churchyou're getting the best version
of me.
My kids are getting the bestdad right now in this season.
My wife's getting the besthusband in the season.
Amen, because I'm not just ahusband or a father or a pastor

(01:15:33):
or leader or friend.
I'm somebody that's free.
You know, because of thefreedom that I'm having, I'm a
lot better than what I used tobe.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
You know, and I think that's the best, uh, the best
leadership advice um that youcan give is forgiveness.
You know, like you were saying,you've been a pastor for more
than three years, oh yeah, butyou're saying right now I'm
living free.
So what does that mean?
That there are pastors andother leaders, because sometimes

(01:16:04):
we we think that these topicsare only meant for the members
and for this and that.
But there's a whole lot ofleaders and there's a whole lot
of you know pastors that maybebecause of ministry or just life
in general, they're carryingsome baggage, some luggage, some
burden, a yoke over them thatthey weren't called or meant to
carry, and God wants to makethem free as well.

(01:16:26):
A hundred percent thatbitterness.
Yeah, Maybe that goat or thatsheep or that wolf hurt you,
pastor, Maybe you're goingthrough that situation, but God
can make you free.
God can liberate you andrestore your family.
God doesn't want you to be amiserable pastor.
God doesn't want you to be apastor that can't live in

(01:16:48):
freedom but feels like this ismore of a task and some homework
.
God has great and mighty things.
He has plans to prosper you,not to harm you, to give you a
future and to give you some hope.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):
Man that is so powerful, any last words, pastor
, that you want to give to thatperson, because I know that this
podcast has been a blessing.
You know you shared about yourlife, you shared how God has got
you through the pain and thejourneys and you dropped so many
different, so much knowledge onus in this podcast.
But any last words for thatperson that is listening.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
I think, for as a leader and a pastor and someone
that wants to do the calling ofGod, I would say you know, learn
to hear his voice, because hisvoice has never really for me.
I'm learning how to take itstep by step, not rushing into
something that we can't handle,enjoying the journey as you go,
not comparing yourself withother leaders or other pastors
or even other ministries, beingcontent in who you are striving

(01:17:52):
for healthiness, health growth,not just numerical growth you
will live a lot happier.
I'm going to tell you thatLiving a life of comparison is
hard, you know.
Living a life where you're,you're paralleling yourself with
something that they may have aton of more resources and a ton
of more help, and that doesn'tmean that you guys are different

(01:18:12):
, you're just.
You know, you're just in twodifferent seasons.
You know, when I learned thathow to be okay with me and also
strive to become a better me,honestly, I, like I've talked
about freedom, I I understandthat I'm at a pace where God
wants me and I rather be at thatpace than a forced pace,

(01:18:32):
because a forced pace never endswell, you know, um, I looked to
Peter a lot and Jesus dealtwith Peter but also understood
his pace because he knew what hewas going to do in his life.
What you're going through rightnow, god is doing it is going
to allow things.
Not only allow things, but forus to learn.

(01:18:53):
There's lessons that we learn,but it's at his pace and don't
rush into something just becausesomebody else is doing it.
You be good with you.
You've been called, you've beenchosen.
You know you don't have to makesomething happen to seem like
it's some sort of success.
Any soul in the kingdom issuccess If it's getting, if he's

(01:19:14):
getting won over for Jesus.
You're doing your job.
Keep striving, keep strivingfor excellence.
I'm not saying be comfortable.
What I am saying is know youand in that God will honor that
when you honor him with the pacethat you're at.
Not only that, but you're notdoing this life alone.
A lot of times, pastors andleaders, we feel that we're

(01:19:34):
alone in certain seasons.
You're not alone.
I went through some dark timesand even in darkness I
experienced light and in thatlight is restored my hope.
It gave me I'm telling you arenewed love and renewed passion
.
Different prayer, differentword.
I'm reading the Bible different.
I'm enjoying the journey.
I'm enjoying my life with Jesus.

(01:19:55):
I'm enjoying my life with mychurch.
Yeah, do we have those ups anddowns?
Yes, we all do, but I neverfelt this before, like as far as
the enjoyment I'm havingbecause I'm growing with Jesus.
You may feel like a failure, youmay feel like giving up, but
today's a day not to bend tothose ideas or those emotions,

(01:20:15):
but it's to hold on to faiththat if God's called you to it,
if God separates you for thismoment, no matter what you face
in life, god will always see youthrough.
Just got to hold on, have faith, don't compare yourself.
Fall in love with Jesus, bepatient but strive for
excellence.
There's a lot to it.
We could talk about a ton ofstuff, but my encouragement to
you today is that you're notalone.

(01:20:36):
You're not alone.
I've been on the journey for aminute now.
There's other pastors who'vebeen serving Jesus for 50, 60
years and they'll tell you thesame thing.
You're not alone.
Get close to somebody.
I think the greatest joy I haveis I found some good friends in
my times.
Find yourself a good friend, atrue friend.
I have a few friends thatthey're not even in my ministry

(01:20:59):
but they're the closest I'm tobecause I could be so
transparent with them.
Sometimes all you need is agood friend, not somebody you
have to teach, not somebody youhave to teach, not somebody you
have to pour into, not somebodyyou have to disciple, but
somebody that will listen to youand give you godly advice,
someone that will do life withyou.
I think my honestly.
I know this is probably theending, but my wife prayed that

(01:21:20):
I find a friend these last twoyears.
That was her prayer for me andI found one of my closest
friends and it has donesomething to me because there's
no expectation.
It's just two guys wanting toserve God and they speak life
into each other.
They talk scripture with eachother, they talk about their
weaknesses and their strengthsand, honestly, my greatest joy

(01:21:41):
coming out of this darkness is Icame out with a few friends
that I know are going to be apart of my life for the rest of
my life.
You're not doing it.
I'll find somebody and ifyou're here in the Valley, come
meet up with us, come by thechurch or let me know.
We'll go hang out, we'll go dowhatever.
Why?
Because we're doing thisjourney together.
Even though we're, you know,different tribes, we're still

(01:22:02):
the same kingdom, you know, andthat's one of the greatest, I
think, lies of the enemy is thatwhen you're going through it,
he wants to make you go throughit, make you think that you're
going through it by yourself.
You're not by yourself.
There's a whole family out herethat loves you and we'll do
anything for each other to buildthe kingdom.
And, um, thank you, man, thankyou for listening.
I know this was a minute, butthank you for listening and and

(01:22:25):
if we could share anything, youknow, send some messages to
Ezekiel or whatever, because Iknow this, this is going to help
out a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
Well, pastor, thank you so much for for being
transparent, for being open withus, for sharing your time, your
knowledge and what God has donewith you.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
It's been an absolute honor.
Thank, it's been an absolutehonor.
Thank you for being here atElohim Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Anytime man Love you, Appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
Thank you for watching Elohim Podcast, a
podcast about real life issuesfrom a biblical perspective.
Today was a blessing.
Stay tuned for the upcomingepisodes, because I know it's
going to bless your life or thelife of someone you love.
Thank you, elohim Podcast.

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