October 9, 2023 • 39 mins
Step into a candid conversation with me and my esteemed guest, Erin Albright, as we pull back the curtain on the pervasive misconceptions surrounding human trafficking. Erin, a seasoned expert with over a decade of experience, helps us break down the sensationalism that often obscures the nuanced reality of this global crisis. Together, we take a critical look at how the drive for attention has often led to inaccuracies in public understanding of this grave matter.
Join us as we traverse the intricate landscapes of history, systemic factors, and the need for change in the anti-trafficking movement. With Erin's deep insights, we shine a light on the often-overlooked history of this movement and the systemic issues that perpetuate the 'perfect victim' narrative. This episode takes you through the complexities of collaboration and emphasizes the need for a well-rounded, informed approach to decision-making and advocacy.
Dive headfirst into our discussion as we stress the essence of learning before doing. We explore the importance of fully comprehending the nuances of human trafficking and the value of being surrounded by knowledgeable people.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You know the why human trafficking work is needed
To fight for the freedom ofmodern day slaves.
But love, passion, commitmentisn't all you need to be an
effective and successfulanti-trafficking advocate.
Learn the how.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson,director of the Human
Trafficking and Social JusticeInstitute at the University of
(00:23):
Toledo.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation podcast, where I'll
provide you with the latest andbest methods, policy and
practice discussed byexperienced experts in the field
, so that you can cut throughthe noise, save time and be
about the work of saving lives.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson, andthis is episode 194.
(00:46):
And today I have a specialguest, erin Albright.
So Erin has over 13 years in theanti-trafficking field.
She's worked with lawenforcement and victim services
and multidisciplinary coalitionsand task force and policy work.
She's also developed newinitiatives and she's helped
(01:10):
coalitions and commissions andtask force build their capacity
and their ability to sustainthemselves.
She does training andcurriculum development.
She's skilled in leadership andpartnership development.
She analyzes policies, doesgrant writing, training,
coaching and she has been theregional director for Give Way
(01:32):
to Freedom.
She's been the director of theNew Hampshire Human Trafficking
Collaborative Task Force and shealso currently is co-director
of Project Roadmap, and she alsofreelances because she's a
subject matter expert andconsultant, as you can tell.
So welcome Erin.
(01:52):
I'm so happy you were able tobe here today with us.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Good morning, I'm excited to be here.
I think I have definitely beena fan of this podcast in the
past, so I'm looking forward totalking to you.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Awesome and one of the many things you talk about.
Of course, you could talk indepth across subjects, but today
I really want to talk aboutmessaging and misinformation,
because a lot of the listenersare still in awareness sort of
building capacity and some are alittle confused on what they
(02:27):
see on the internet or in themovies or, you know, on YouTube
and what's real.
So you have a vast number ofyears of experience.
So can we talk a little bitabout human trafficking,
messaging and maybe someinformation that might be out
there?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Absolutely, and I have to say from my perspective,
I think that messaging andmisinformation is quite possibly
the number one problem that thefield faces at this moment.
I think you'll hear a lot ofdifferent opinions on that,
whether it's training orinability to identify survivors,
but I think they're at the rootof a lot of those other
problems.
There's a messaging andmisinformation issue, so it is
(03:10):
something that I talk about alot and it's become one of my
most popular trainings.
At this point, when peoplereach out to me what is
happening?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I mean there's Hollywood movie coming out that
came out actually and grossedseveral million dollars about
trafficking.
There's internet.
I mean I get messages all thetime about people being snatched
, or they think this white vanis riding around snatching
people or we need to just go anddeep prayer about it, or we
(03:43):
need to go after thosemultimillionaires who have
underground trafficking rings.
So can you sort that out for us?
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah Well, I think I should start with that for a
long time.
We are now in what our thirddecade of the anti-trafficking
movement, more or less, if youclock it from the time that the
TVPA was signed, and I think inthe early years we were running
off of just basic experience,anecdotal evidence and all of
that.
But two and a half arguablythree decades into it, we have a
(04:18):
lot more information now thatcan help us correct some of
those past things.
So, with the fact of theHollywood stuff and all that, I
think there's this concept thatin order to create awareness,
you need the attention grabber,you need that sizzle or whatever
people want to call it.
And I was at a restorativejustice conference a couple of
years ago and I was sitting inon a session about the domestic
(04:41):
violence field and one of thespeakers said something that I
thought was really powerful andreally applies to trafficking as
well, and what she said is thatin the early days of the
domestic violence movement theytraded nuance for attention.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I think that that is something that is a mistake that
we have repeated in theanti-trafficking world, we
absolutely traded nuance forattention and I think now we're
hitting the point where sort ofa corrective action point of
we're having to step backwardsbecause all of that
sensationalism designed to drawattention certainly did, but
(05:15):
didn't draw the right kind ofattention.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I see, I think I tend to agree with that and may have
participated in that in theearly days.
I wanted people to become aware, grab that attention so that we
can protect vulnerable people,and I think I've been guilty of
that as well.
And now it's coming home thechickens coming home to roost,
(05:42):
as they say and we need to starttalking about the realities of
trafficking.
And, like you said, we know alot more today and so I think it
has been difficult to correctourselves and understand the
intersectionalities and thosetypes of things.
(06:04):
So in what ways have we beenmisguided and what ways can we
sort of correct?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's a good question.
I think it's important torecognize the system and sort of
the historical system thatwe're working in definitely
incentivize sensationalism, andthat's where we hit this point
where I think we're at atransition point in the
trafficking field where we'vereally built the movement off of
individual responses,individual perspectives save
(06:35):
that one victim, which isabsolutely important but we're
not a point where we'rerecognizing all the systemic
things that feed into that.
We're at a point where we reallyneed to be focusing on systems,
and this isn't easy, but it isreally about coming together and
pushing back on some of thosetraditional pressures, whether
it be the really big stats aregoing to get you somewhere.
(06:57):
Well, they don't get you veryfar if they're not true.
Or someone said me the otherday, the wrong map gets you to
the wrong place.
So if you share statistics thatdon't really have a sound
methodology, certainly createawareness, but awareness about
what is the question, not theproblem we're trying to fix.
So that is a problem, and sowhat can we?
(07:19):
I think that's one of thethings that we can do is that A
we can recognize that we need tobe pushing back against the
system.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Exactly.
And you know, I often say, likepeople say I'm walking, I'm
walking alongside, becausethat's the buzzword and I always
like to say, but where are yougoing?
Yeah, where are you going.
And the other thing is, whenyou say systems, you know
there's been a lot of systemimposed, trauma, and we, I often
(07:50):
say, have given ourselves agreat big old pass.
Like we say, oh, we're going tobecome trauma informed, like
this is our new buzzword, we'regoing to all be trauma informed
how nice of a word.
Why are we becoming traumainformed?
Because what we've done in thepast is traumatized people.
But we but we don't say that wejust talk about the good we're
(08:15):
now going to go forward and dowhile we stigmatize, continue to
stigmatize people, or we'relooking for that victim who is
the perfect, like stereotypedcaricature victim.
And this victim has approachedus in a way that is pleasing to
(08:37):
us.
I like to say kiss, maybe theright side of our butt cheek and
on the right day at the righttime, and so we are willing to
help and suspend judgment.
So I mean, do you find in yourexperience that that's been the
(08:57):
case?
I wanna break into this podcastand ask you an important
question why did you become sopassionate about the issue of
human trafficking?
Because you know how preciousfreedom really is and you know
that if you could offer that tosomeone else, it would make your
life that much richer, as wellas theirs.
Whatever you've accomplishedthus far in life, nothing is
(09:19):
more satisfying than being ableto help someone receive the gift
of freedom.
If you're interested in takingthe deep dive and becoming
trained, write this down.
It's my effective casemanagement with human
trafficking survivors course.
You know many direct serviceproviders are passionate about
working with survivors.
(09:39):
They understand their why indoing this work, but many don't
understand their what to do orhow to do it, or when to do it
and where and how much to dowhat.
And unfortunately, we don'tgive permission for someone to
be honest and say they don'thave the knowledge and skills to
effectively work with thepopulation of survivors that
(10:01):
have suffered trauma.
Well, I have a course on how towork directly with survivors,
including the 10 common areas ofneed and how to assess those
areas of need, and then how tointervene more effectively and
in trauma informed ways.
Complete my course EffectiveCase Management with Human
Trafficking Survivors at yourown pace.
(10:21):
I'll walk alongside you as youwalk alongside survivors,
sharing with you my almost 30years of experience.
If you're interested, you canfind my free webinar on my
website at ciliawilsoncom.
And now on with the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Absolutely.
First of all, I think that sortof conversations about history
are absolutely critical for thismovement and it's something
that we have not done a verygood job of yet.
There's incredible harms that alot of victims and survivors
and vulnerable populations haveexperienced at the hands of
different systems, whether it'ssort of social welfare system or
(11:02):
child welfare system or lawenforcement anything.
There's historical harm andhistorical trauma that we just
gloss over to your point and wegloss it over with a happy
little band aid that says victimcentered and trauma informed
and we think everything's allbetter.
But when I'm training lawenforcement, one of the things I
like to talk about is I cantrain you all day long in trauma
informed, but if I don't helpyou understand some of the harm
(11:25):
that these populations haveexperienced before they met you,
I'm basically sending you outinto the field six feet under
and you have to dig out of thathole before you can ever have
any impact or start workingthese cases.
So history absolutely critical.
And then I think the perfectvictim it's funny I was having a
conversation yesterday aboutthis goes to systems change,
(11:46):
because the systems we work inincentivize the perfect victim.
Funders want the story, butthey don't want the complicated
story.
They want the beginning, middleand end happy, a little happily
ever after.
Perfect victim story in lawenforcement.
Right, they're actualperformance metrics and their
(12:09):
careers are based on basicallythe perfect victim, because we
live in an adversarial system.
Right, guilty, not guilty, andso all of these.
So I think a lot of what theresponse for me is beginning to
have a lot more conversationsabout expanding our options and
beginning to at least name theseproblems out loud and
(12:31):
acknowledge them.
And I find that when I do saythem out loud, usually the
people in the audience there'ssort of this collective sigh of
relief of yes, that's what we'vebeen feeling or that's kind of
what's wrong.
And note that I'm not evenpushing people right now to say
like, let's change it.
I mean, some people areagitators, I'm an agitator, some
people aren't.
(12:52):
But I think the first step insolving any problem is
recognizing that it exists.
So just being able to say, allthese times when the local
reporter or whatever calls andthey wanna know the stats on how
many victims, well, guess what,you're not gonna give them that
answer, right, or how big isthe problem this is my least
favorite question ever.
So, and it's about being ableto have that conversation and
(13:15):
say, like you know what?
We don't know how big theproblem is, but what we do know,
we know a lot of what feedsinto the problem.
We know a lot about thesevulnerable populations and so we
do know that we have theseguest workers in our
jurisdiction, that we can belooking to make sure we're
preventing trafficking orsomething.
So it's pushing back andhelping to realign the
(13:38):
expectations of reporters andfunders and politicians and
stuff.
And that isn't easy, which justmeans it's all the more
important that we kind of cometogether collectively to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank God for the people whopush back, the advocates, the
agitators, the people who don'tfall in line.
We should celebrate them,because that's how change,
that's where real change occurs.
And when you're talking aboutyou know law enforcement or
whatever, sending them out theresix feet under if they don't
(14:10):
understand the history, you knowI mean labor trafficking, which
I know you're also an expert in.
You know a lot of thecommunities.
I'm in Ohio.
We have a lot of migrantworkers, we have a lot of people
who may not be, who may beundocumented, and then the
government says, oh, we justdiscovered trafficking, so,
(14:31):
department of Homeland Security,go out and help the people.
Well, the people onlyunderstand ICE.
So I don't care what prettyname you're calling yourself.
Now we are not building arelationship, given our history.
So history is criticallyimportant.
Now you're supposed to be theeyes and ears of the good guys,
(14:56):
but for many years you've notbeen seen as the good.
Same with social workers, samewith healthcare providers, same
with the professional helpers.
So we have to understandhistory, but sometimes we just
I'll just label younon-compliant and move on.
(15:16):
I don't know why you're notworking with me.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, well, you know and we live in, we live in a
fast-paced environment and welive in a binary world where
you're guilty or not guilty,you're documented or
undocumented.
And I think again, this goesback to trading nuance for
attention and it's about diggingmore into the nuance and having
more honest conversations,which is hard because all of us
(15:40):
are doing burnout cultures athing.
We're all working harder thanever before.
So it's one of those thingswhere you kind of have to take a
deep breath and step back andbe really deliberate and really
open about what you're doing.
And even then it's hard to getbuy-in for it a lot of time
because there are so manycompeting pressures on it.
But I do think history I mean,if we're not helping people
(16:02):
understand what came before andwhat all these past experiences
are that have created trauma andmemories and all of that, we're
basically setting them up forfailure.
We can't just slap atrauma-informed and
victim-centered band-aid onthings and send people out into
the field.
That's not fair to them, that'snot fair to the survivors that
are out there, that's not fairto the vulnerable communities
(16:25):
that they're working with.
So and.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
But of course, when that does happen, we will not
take responsibility.
We'll again blame them.
For why didn't you get thisgreat service?
Why didn't you change?
Why didn't you become a betterperson, a better human?
It must be you, it's not, it'snot us.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, and there's a lot of victim blaming and I
think, well, ultimately thereare a lot of the victim blaming
comes from a source of it's.
Actually again, the system iswhat created it and people just
don't know to sort of aim theblame that way, and I think
people really struggle becausewe can't always change the
system right away.
It's easier to it's easier toattribute it to a single person
(17:05):
and a single person singularactions than it is the system.
But another thing that I dowith a lot of the groups is work
really hard to help peopleunderstand.
I at least stayed out loud, behelp them understand.
All right, let's find theplaces in the system where you
do have some level of power.
What are the small things thatyou can change over time based
(17:26):
on your power in the system, andare you going to change the
whole thing overnight?
Absolutely not.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, because where you have influence, where you
can open doors, authority, doyour part and then if everybody
does their little part to pushon the system to make sure that
system is responsive, is kind,is knowledgeable, is skilled.
So let me ask you this questionyou help collaborations build
(17:55):
and sustain themselves.
Would you prefer somebody whohas an inch deep of human
trafficking knowledge to go outthere and help the people, or
would you prefer waiting to helpthe people but becoming more
knowledgeable and skilled?
(18:16):
Which would you go with?
Or is there a third?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
option.
All right, if there's twooptions, I'm going to say wait,
because I think the people thatonly have an inch of experience,
good intentions, all exist, andI'm very happy for people to
have good intentions, and Ithink a lot of times, what we
see in the trafficking world,though, is good intentions can
go really, really wrong andcreate a lot of additional harms
, and so I mean there isobviously a third option, and I
(18:43):
think that third option reallyis the multidisciplinary
approach.
So you have that person withonly an inch, but if they
partner with four other peopleor disciplines that have more
knowledge and they're actuallycollaborating together and
having the conversations, thenthat person can go out and do
what they're good at and onlyhave an inch, because there's
(19:04):
checks and balances to preventthat other harm from happening.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I totally agree.
Totally agree 110%.
So what would you say to thosepeople who are out there lone
wolves, rogue, they're going todo it themselves.
They don't need a collaboration, they don't need a team or they
don't need to bemultidisciplinary.
They can do it.
Stop, all right.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And so I'm being clear.
But I think that those can bereally challenging situations
because in my experience theycome in a couple of different
formats.
Some of them just don't knowRight, and so exposing them to
the support of others in theircommunity and helping sort of
educate some and redirect alittle bit is really great.
And then there's others who arein it for I mean, I'll be blunt
(19:54):
because that's how I am butthere's some people that are in
it really for their own ego,right, to really just sort of
pat themselves on the back, andI think those are the ones that
tend to be dangerous and so andI call those people the rogue,
the rogue entities or people,and there's not a lot you can do
(20:15):
with that subset.
The good thing is it's a verysmall, small, small, small.
The bad thing is they tend tobe really loud and get a lot of
attention.
So you know, there I don'treally know what you do to them.
You can try to educate I thinkeverybody tries to partner with
them, but ultimately you justhave to be better at what you do
(20:37):
than they are.
But I feel like that was also alittle bit negative, because
there absolutely are a lot ofpeople that are out there and
they're doing things and theystart their NGO and they have
good intentions and it's great,and yet they still aren't really
there yet, right?
And those people, I try to justsort of wrap around an
expertise and help themunderstand that, like this is a
learning and growing process andwe're all learning and growing
(20:59):
at all times.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I mean I totally agree with that.
I mean I think every community,or almost every community, has
that sort of rogue entity orperson who's out there that
sometimes you try to wrap themin expertise and collaboration
and they are not having it andso managing that.
It can be stressful, but that'swhat happens in the movement.
(21:25):
It's messy.
Some people are highly skilledand I also agree Weight.
Even though this is somethingthat is critically important,
it's even more important thatyou weight, go deeper, become
skilled and then enter becausewe have passed laws, people have
(21:50):
been overzealous, we havecaused a lot of collateral
damage because people were aninch deep and they ran and they
passed the laws and everybodypassed themselves on the back
and it was one of those examples, I'm suspecting, where they
wanted the individual creditinstead of doing the good for
(22:11):
the people.
So, yeah, I think weighting.
So when somebody is involved ina collaboration, for instance,
I mean what are the best ways tobe collaborative, to be
involved in a collaboration?
How can you be the best at itif you wanted to be
collaborative?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I love that question and you mentioned sort of the
number one not the number onething, but one of the things
that I think is going to bemessy.
It's going to be messy.
You might as well just acceptthat from the get go and let it
slide off your back, otherwiseit's just going to cause endless
frustration and that's nothealthy for anybody.
Open, honest communication isabsolutely vital for
(22:55):
collaborative efforts,especially around human
trafficking.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Open and honest communication.
That can be pretty scarybecause people come to the table
often with their agendas.
They're not always positive,they're not always beneficial.
Sometimes it's to build yourown career.
Sometimes it's because youragency said you have to.
(23:20):
Sometimes you're coming to thetable to say what can I get for
me or my agency instead of howcan we work on the mission?
Hello, I mean, I don't thinkbeing collaborative is intuitive
or innate.
I think it's a skill.
(23:42):
So what say you to somebodywho's like we have a
collaboration, we're good.
Are they good?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So I mean, those are all really good questions and I
think the other thing aboutcollaboration is you're right,
it is a skill.
Collaboration takes work.
I think that was one of the.
So I did a three year visitingfellowship with DOJ at the
Office of Victims of Crime,where I was working with their
enhanced collaborative modeltask forces, and that was one of
the important things for me towork on then is helping convey
(24:17):
that message of collaborationtakes work, it takes time, it
takes attention, it takesintention.
Right, these are people comingtogether with a level of
intention to have a sharedmission and communicate openly,
and the hope is that, goingthrough the process of buildings
that some of those otheragendas have failed to the past
(24:41):
and in service to the mission.
But that doesn't always happen.
And I would say to the folksthat come to me and say like,
hey, we have a collaboration,great.
My first question is cool, whathappens if one of you leaves?
Important?
Yeah, because what we find,what I have found, working with
the task forces, or what we findworking with the task forces,
is everybody wants to talk abouttraining all the time.
(25:03):
We need more training, moretraining, and I don't actually
think that's true.
I think we need better training, but one of the primary
challenges we found is notnecessarily training, it's
turnover.
We have a lot of training, butthe turnover whether it's in law
enforcement or social servicesthe turnover rate is so high
that you get about two or threeyears out of somebody in a
(25:25):
collaborative effort before theymove on.
And that is really tough tonavigate if you don't have some
structures put into place aroundit.
So I was-.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
The idea of attention and intention, because
intention kind of leads you tobuild that good structure in
those systems.
So whether that person leavesor not leaves, the structure is
sort of in place so that thatnew person can plug in and
become educated and skilled.
(25:58):
But it's continuous work, Iguess, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
What is so many of my conversations over the last
decade, probably with respect tocollaboration, have been simply
giving people permission toslow down and have that
intention right, because I thinkeverybody knows that this is
obviously it's a horrible crime.
There are lots of victims andsurvivors out there that really
need support and everybody sortof runs immediately in that
(26:25):
direction, usually at theexpense of building that
necessary collaboration.
So again, the conversation thatI've had a lot is giving people
the permission to slow down andbuild their things, because
that's what gives yousustainability in the long run.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Exactly.
I believe people love to saywell, at least we're doing
something.
That's the sentence that kindof gets under my skin the most.
At least we're doing something.
No, take the time to do thebest thing, because that's what
you would want.
If somebody is coming to helpme, I want you to have taken the
(27:04):
time to bring me your best, notjust something.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think that there's enough energy and
individuals and expertise in theanti-trafficking movement that
we can do both.
Right, we can still beresponding to cases while
building an infrastructure, youknow, and solidifying that.
And yeah, one of my leastfavorite things is similar to
(27:30):
years, but instead of at leastwe're doing something, it's well
, we have to do something.
That's when they go off andthere's some sort of silly law
pass that ends up causing a lotmore harm than good at the end
of the day, because people feelthis pressure to do something
but they don't necessarily dotheir homework before doing
(27:52):
something.
So that's a little bit of ascary moment.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Exactly.
I heard one of the lawyers tellme actually Bridget Carr, at
the University of Michigan'sHuman Draftgain Clinic always
look if you're passing a lawwhether state law, federal law
always put on a different hatand say how is this law gonna be
used against poor people,against people of color, against
(28:20):
marginalized people?
If you look at your proposedbill or you don't read bills
because you are not down likethat, ask the people on your
committee, if you're involved,how will this affect the poor,
the marginalized?
Because therein lies some ofthe problem.
(28:42):
It's like we're running oh myGod, this is a great law, let's
pass it, and then we don'tunderstand the collateral damage
that could happen or how otherattorneys will use it against
people who are vulnerable andmarginalized.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I think I need everybody.
I would love for everybody outthere that's moving forward on
good intentions alone to havesome sort of cosmic pause in
their life or a checklist ofquestions to go through, because
good intentions are great, butwithout additional knowledge
they tend to go haywire.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Absolutely.
I mean, I have good intentions.
I would love to run down to ouremergency department right now
and help people, because I havea good heart, I have good
intentions.
So can I just jump in there andhelp like hell?
No, because people are gonnaget infections, I know it's fine
Like so.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And that's the like.
You know, I was readingsomething a couple of weeks ago
and I was talking about forminga task force, and it's sort of
the first thing you need whenyou're informing a task force is
a sense of urgency, and I hadsomewhat of a visceral reaction
to that, and it's a documentthat I had read previously and
it came out like 15 years agomaybe and I thought you know, 15
(29:57):
years ago.
That made a lot of sense to me.
Now, 15 years later, I get alittle upset or nervous about
that, because a sense of urgencytends to mean people running
forward without the requisiteknowledge to build what we need
and creating infections orgetting people hurt, and so that
for me, I mean on both aninformation and a collaboration
(30:20):
level, just to tie it back towhat we talked about at the
beginning, I think a lot of itis slowing down and taking the
time to make sure that you areprepared and educated on things,
and that's not always easy.
But when I'm talking to brandnew task force directors or
coordinators, the very firstadvice I give them well, first I
tell them take a deep breath.
It's complicated and messy, butit'll be fine.
(30:41):
But the second thing I alwaystell them is give it three
months.
Give it three months to talk toall of the members, to sit back
and observe the workingrelationships, to kind of get a
pulse on and figure out what therhythm of all the different
partners are, right Before youstart planning or doing anything
or whatever, because you needthat time.
(31:03):
I mean, understanding therhythm of your collaborative
group is really important for aleader, and if you just right
and if you dive in and the firstthing you want to do is I can't
even think of a good exampleright now, but you know slowing
down a little- bit and.
I think it's okay for people inthe movement to slow down and
have these conversations.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, I think so too and I think I love you know, to
make sure you know the rhythm.
I love that analogy because Ifeel like on task forces,
commissions, coalitions,whatever you call yourself, that
law enforcement comes into theroom with the big bass drum,
boom, boom, we're here.
(31:44):
We're here to solve, andthere's social services, there's
healthcare people, there'slived experience experts All of
these people make up the rhythmof the song.
And if you're coming in withthe big bass drum because you
got the answers to solveeverything, you drown out the
rest of the band.
So you can't hear the rhythmbecause you're in their pound,
(32:09):
in your big bass drum.
That it's all aboutinvestigation, prosecution and
incarceration.
That's not all it's about.
So I love that rhythm analogy.
And you know, I think programs,just coalitions, tasks you know
they're like the life cycle of aperson.
(32:30):
I mean they're messing with you.
They grow to be an adult.
Hopefully they perform as anadult and eventually they'll get
old and die off.
But you got to recognize whereyou are.
Like what you're saying Sitback, learn, listen.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, they do, and I think and it's this again comes
to being deliberate andcommunication because the world,
that the world and the systemthat law enforcement comes from
is all about that big bass,right, it's all like that's how
they're literally taught andsocialized and that's how
(33:08):
they're, they have to exist intheir law enforcement world, and
so it can be really hard totake a step out of that if you
don't have the right sort ofatmosphere and setting and if
you're not.
But I find that you know, whenyou give people permission to
slow down and be deliberate andtake a deep breath, that they
can, that all of that can kindof shed away a little bit, and
(33:28):
then you can have those largerconversations where it's a
little bit more of an equalplaying field.
But again, that comes back tosystem change and just talking
about all that, which you knowfeels really daunting, but it
doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That's right, absolutely.
And so, erin, if somebody is ona collaboration or coalition or
task force and they reallythey're recognizing through this
conversation wait a minute,okay, let me slow down and make
sure that I'm doing this in aneffective way, in a productive
way.
Is there an opportunity to talkto you or to bring you in to
(34:06):
train or build thiscollaboration and sustainability
?
Is that a possibility?
And, if so, how do people get ahold of you?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Absolutely.
I work with jurisdictions acrossthe country, both through my
own consulting and then alsothrough my role with Project
Roadmap, so individualjurisdictions that aren't funded
by DOJ for the task force canreach out to me on my website or
through my email, which is justErin at newframeworksorg.
(34:39):
And then the other thing I wouldpoint people to is there's an
amazing resource published byOVC and International
Association of Chiefs of Policethat I led the team in putting
together when I was at DOJ andit's called the Task Force
Development and OperationsRoadmap and what it is is
basically it's modeled off offive stages of development
(35:01):
theory or process and it kind ofcharts out different parts of a
task force over a five stageperiod and it's something that
we use with task forces a lot toreally help them kind of
pinpoint where they are and thenwhat they can do next and see
what.
That's always a great thing.
Reaching out to me is a greatthing, and I would be remiss if
I didn't say that there is.
(35:21):
The DOJ has a grant opportunitythat it puts out every year
called the EnhancedCollaborative Model to Combat
Human Trafficking, and so youcan look that up and find
previous solicitations andthat's an amazing opportunity
for a jurisdiction that islooking to start a task force or
one that already has a taskforce, because it's an
(35:42):
investment of money and supportand technical assistance that
can really walk to your point,walk alongside people To support
in building some of thesethings and strengthening that
collaboration.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
That's amazing.
I think those are all amazingresources.
Thank you so much, erin.
Is there any last word ofadvice for people who are trying
to do this work?
What would you advise them todo?
I guess I won't repeatstatistics.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Sorry that was Glib as well, but all of those
statistics we see floatingaround 40 million, 26 point,
whatever million, 14,000 to17,000, all of those really big
statistics that are out therenone of them are accurate.
Just don't use them.
Instead, talk aboutvulnerability, talk about
migrant workers, talk aboutrunaway and homeless youth, but
(36:37):
we have to get to a point.
Actually, part of my trainingthat I do these days is an
actual memorial service to someof those stats that tracks them
back to their source andexplains how they're discredited
at this point.
But that's my biggest piece ofadvice stop repeating stats,
because none of them are right.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Well, and that's exactly true.
When you go back to the source,you will be sorely disappointed
in how they came up with thesestatistics.
We still don't know.
It's all underground, it'sillegal.
No one really has a handle onthe number.
I love that you said don'trepeat I love being Glib, I love
(37:14):
your Glib.
Here's why Because one we needto be skilled and knowledgeable.
We don't have time to pretty itup and figure out how to say it
delicately.
If you're in this business, youneed to hear it and you need to
hear it in the way that it said.
You need to understand it inthe raw way.
We don't need to put a bunch offlowery language around it.
(37:35):
If that is upsetting to you,then you really can't be in this
type of environment.
Us doing the work.
We just don't have time topretty it all up for you.
We just have to say it to youand you have to decide whether
you accept it or not.
Thank you so much, erin.
I so much appreciate your justrefreshing and knowledgeable,
(38:01):
skilled way of presenting to usand letting us know that it's
okay to sit back and relax, takethe time to learn and become
skilled and then get out thereand do the great work.
Thank you so much, erin, and Ihope you continue to do the
great work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, thank you very much.
It was really fun talking withyou.
If anybody needs a pep talk onslowing down, just reach out.
I'm really good at that peptalk.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Awesome, okay, thank you.
That was Erin Albright With themessage take your time, learn
your craft, then jump in and dothe good work.
Take the cosmic pause, slowdown, be deliberate, be
intentional.
(38:50):
I just remember getting mydoctoral degree in.
I felt like I was in the ivorytower for way too long and I was
anxious I was learning,learning, learning.
I felt like I had so much thatI learned and I just wanted to
get out in the world and startdoing things.
It seemed like it took foreverjust to get out there and do, do
(39:15):
, do, but I was so motivated andI haven't stopped being
motivated to do the work.
But I understand you want tojump out there and just do it,
but please learn your craft,learn your skill, become
knowledgeable, surround yourselfwith other knowledgeable people
, collaborate and do the work.
(39:36):
Remember the African sayinglike, if you want to go fast, go
alone, but if you want to dothings well and do it right, it
will take time, right, but gotogether Until next time the
fight continues.
You know the why human trafficking work is needed
To fight for the freedom ofmodern day slaves.
But love, passion, commitmentisn't all you need to be an
effective and successfulanti-trafficking advocate.
Learn the how.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson,director of the Human
Trafficking and Social JusticeInstitute at the University of
(00:23):
Toledo.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation podcast, where I'll
provide you with the latest andbest methods, policy and
practice discussed byexperienced experts in the field
, so that you can cut throughthe noise, save time and be
about the work of saving lives.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson, andthis is episode 194.
(00:46):
And today I have a specialguest, erin Albright.
So Erin has over 13 years in theanti-trafficking field.
She's worked with lawenforcement and victim services
and multidisciplinary coalitionsand task force and policy work.
She's also developed newinitiatives and she's helped
(01:10):
coalitions and commissions andtask force build their capacity
and their ability to sustainthemselves.
She does training andcurriculum development.
She's skilled in leadership andpartnership development.
She analyzes policies, doesgrant writing, training,
coaching and she has been theregional director for Give Way
(01:32):
to Freedom.
She's been the director of theNew Hampshire Human Trafficking
Collaborative Task Force and shealso currently is co-director
of Project Roadmap, and she alsofreelances because she's a
subject matter expert andconsultant, as you can tell.
So welcome Erin.
(01:52):
I'm so happy you were able tobe here today with us.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Good morning, I'm excited to be here.
I think I have definitely beena fan of this podcast in the
past, so I'm looking forward totalking to you.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Awesome and one of the many things you talk about.
Of course, you could talk indepth across subjects, but today
I really want to talk aboutmessaging and misinformation,
because a lot of the listenersare still in awareness sort of
building capacity and some are alittle confused on what they
(02:27):
see on the internet or in themovies or, you know, on YouTube
and what's real.
So you have a vast number ofyears of experience.
So can we talk a little bitabout human trafficking,
messaging and maybe someinformation that might be out
there?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Absolutely, and I have to say from my perspective,
I think that messaging andmisinformation is quite possibly
the number one problem that thefield faces at this moment.
I think you'll hear a lot ofdifferent opinions on that,
whether it's training orinability to identify survivors,
but I think they're at the rootof a lot of those other
problems.
There's a messaging andmisinformation issue, so it is
(03:10):
something that I talk about alot and it's become one of my
most popular trainings.
At this point, when peoplereach out to me what is
happening?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I mean there's Hollywood movie coming out that
came out actually and grossedseveral million dollars about
trafficking.
There's internet.
I mean I get messages all thetime about people being snatched
, or they think this white vanis riding around snatching
people or we need to just go anddeep prayer about it, or we
(03:43):
need to go after thosemultimillionaires who have
underground trafficking rings.
So can you sort that out for us?
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah Well, I think I should start with that for a
long time.
We are now in what our thirddecade of the anti-trafficking
movement, more or less, if youclock it from the time that the
TVPA was signed, and I think inthe early years we were running
off of just basic experience,anecdotal evidence and all of
that.
But two and a half arguablythree decades into it, we have a
(04:18):
lot more information now thatcan help us correct some of
those past things.
So, with the fact of theHollywood stuff and all that, I
think there's this concept thatin order to create awareness,
you need the attention grabber,you need that sizzle or whatever
people want to call it.
And I was at a restorativejustice conference a couple of
years ago and I was sitting inon a session about the domestic
(04:41):
violence field and one of thespeakers said something that I
thought was really powerful andreally applies to trafficking as
well, and what she said is thatin the early days of the
domestic violence movement theytraded nuance for attention.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I think that that is something that is a mistake that
we have repeated in theanti-trafficking world, we
absolutely traded nuance forattention and I think now we're
hitting the point where sort ofa corrective action point of
we're having to step backwardsbecause all of that
sensationalism designed to drawattention certainly did, but
(05:15):
didn't draw the right kind ofattention.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I see, I think I tend to agree with that and may have
participated in that in theearly days.
I wanted people to become aware, grab that attention so that we
can protect vulnerable people,and I think I've been guilty of
that as well.
And now it's coming home thechickens coming home to roost,
(05:42):
as they say and we need to starttalking about the realities of
trafficking.
And, like you said, we know alot more today and so I think it
has been difficult to correctourselves and understand the
intersectionalities and thosetypes of things.
(06:04):
So in what ways have we beenmisguided and what ways can we
sort of correct?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
That's a good question.
I think it's important torecognize the system and sort of
the historical system thatwe're working in definitely
incentivize sensationalism, andthat's where we hit this point
where I think we're at atransition point in the
trafficking field where we'vereally built the movement off of
individual responses,individual perspectives save
(06:35):
that one victim, which isabsolutely important but we're
not a point where we'rerecognizing all the systemic
things that feed into that.
We're at a point where we reallyneed to be focusing on systems,
and this isn't easy, but it isreally about coming together and
pushing back on some of thosetraditional pressures, whether
it be the really big stats aregoing to get you somewhere.
(06:57):
Well, they don't get you veryfar if they're not true.
Or someone said me the otherday, the wrong map gets you to
the wrong place.
So if you share statistics thatdon't really have a sound
methodology, certainly createawareness, but awareness about
what is the question, not theproblem we're trying to fix.
So that is a problem, and sowhat can we?
(07:19):
I think that's one of thethings that we can do is that A
we can recognize that we need tobe pushing back against the
system.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Exactly.
And you know, I often say, likepeople say I'm walking, I'm
walking alongside, becausethat's the buzzword and I always
like to say, but where are yougoing?
Yeah, where are you going.
And the other thing is, whenyou say systems, you know
there's been a lot of systemimposed, trauma, and we, I often
(07:50):
say, have given ourselves agreat big old pass.
Like we say, oh, we're going tobecome trauma informed, like
this is our new buzzword, we'regoing to all be trauma informed
how nice of a word.
Why are we becoming traumainformed?
Because what we've done in thepast is traumatized people.
But we but we don't say that wejust talk about the good we're
(08:15):
now going to go forward and dowhile we stigmatize, continue to
stigmatize people, or we'relooking for that victim who is
the perfect, like stereotypedcaricature victim.
And this victim has approachedus in a way that is pleasing to
(08:37):
us.
I like to say kiss, maybe theright side of our butt cheek and
on the right day at the righttime, and so we are willing to
help and suspend judgment.
So I mean, do you find in yourexperience that that's been the
(08:57):
case?
I wanna break into this podcastand ask you an important
question why did you become sopassionate about the issue of
human trafficking?
Because you know how preciousfreedom really is and you know
that if you could offer that tosomeone else, it would make your
life that much richer, as wellas theirs.
Whatever you've accomplishedthus far in life, nothing is
(09:19):
more satisfying than being ableto help someone receive the gift
of freedom.
If you're interested in takingthe deep dive and becoming
trained, write this down.
It's my effective casemanagement with human
trafficking survivors course.
You know many direct serviceproviders are passionate about
working with survivors.
(09:39):
They understand their why indoing this work, but many don't
understand their what to do orhow to do it, or when to do it
and where and how much to dowhat.
And unfortunately, we don'tgive permission for someone to
be honest and say they don'thave the knowledge and skills to
effectively work with thepopulation of survivors that
(10:01):
have suffered trauma.
Well, I have a course on how towork directly with survivors,
including the 10 common areas ofneed and how to assess those
areas of need, and then how tointervene more effectively and
in trauma informed ways.
Complete my course EffectiveCase Management with Human
Trafficking Survivors at yourown pace.
(10:21):
I'll walk alongside you as youwalk alongside survivors,
sharing with you my almost 30years of experience.
If you're interested, you canfind my free webinar on my
website at ciliawilsoncom.
And now on with the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Absolutely.
First of all, I think that sortof conversations about history
are absolutely critical for thismovement and it's something
that we have not done a verygood job of yet.
There's incredible harms that alot of victims and survivors
and vulnerable populations haveexperienced at the hands of
different systems, whether it'ssort of social welfare system or
(11:02):
child welfare system or lawenforcement anything.
There's historical harm andhistorical trauma that we just
gloss over to your point and wegloss it over with a happy
little band aid that says victimcentered and trauma informed
and we think everything's allbetter.
But when I'm training lawenforcement, one of the things I
like to talk about is I cantrain you all day long in trauma
informed, but if I don't helpyou understand some of the harm
(11:25):
that these populations haveexperienced before they met you,
I'm basically sending you outinto the field six feet under
and you have to dig out of thathole before you can ever have
any impact or start workingthese cases.
So history absolutely critical.
And then I think the perfectvictim it's funny I was having a
conversation yesterday aboutthis goes to systems change,
(11:46):
because the systems we work inincentivize the perfect victim.
Funders want the story, butthey don't want the complicated
story.
They want the beginning, middleand end happy, a little happily
ever after.
Perfect victim story in lawenforcement.
Right, they're actualperformance metrics and their
(12:09):
careers are based on basicallythe perfect victim, because we
live in an adversarial system.
Right, guilty, not guilty, andso all of these.
So I think a lot of what theresponse for me is beginning to
have a lot more conversationsabout expanding our options and
beginning to at least name theseproblems out loud and
(12:31):
acknowledge them.
And I find that when I do saythem out loud, usually the
people in the audience there'ssort of this collective sigh of
relief of yes, that's what we'vebeen feeling or that's kind of
what's wrong.
And note that I'm not evenpushing people right now to say
like, let's change it.
I mean, some people areagitators, I'm an agitator, some
people aren't.
(12:52):
But I think the first step insolving any problem is
recognizing that it exists.
So just being able to say, allthese times when the local
reporter or whatever calls andthey wanna know the stats on how
many victims, well, guess what,you're not gonna give them that
answer, right, or how big isthe problem this is my least
favorite question ever.
So, and it's about being ableto have that conversation and
(13:15):
say, like you know what?
We don't know how big theproblem is, but what we do know,
we know a lot of what feedsinto the problem.
We know a lot about thesevulnerable populations and so we
do know that we have theseguest workers in our
jurisdiction, that we can belooking to make sure we're
preventing trafficking orsomething.
So it's pushing back andhelping to realign the
(13:38):
expectations of reporters andfunders and politicians and
stuff.
And that isn't easy, which justmeans it's all the more
important that we kind of cometogether collectively to do it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank God for the people whopush back, the advocates, the
agitators, the people who don'tfall in line.
We should celebrate them,because that's how change,
that's where real change occurs.
And when you're talking aboutyou know law enforcement or
whatever, sending them out theresix feet under if they don't
(14:10):
understand the history, you knowI mean labor trafficking, which
I know you're also an expert in.
You know a lot of thecommunities.
I'm in Ohio.
We have a lot of migrantworkers, we have a lot of people
who may not be, who may beundocumented, and then the
government says, oh, we justdiscovered trafficking, so,
(14:31):
department of Homeland Security,go out and help the people.
Well, the people onlyunderstand ICE.
So I don't care what prettyname you're calling yourself.
Now we are not building arelationship, given our history.
So history is criticallyimportant.
Now you're supposed to be theeyes and ears of the good guys,
(14:56):
but for many years you've notbeen seen as the good.
Same with social workers, samewith healthcare providers, same
with the professional helpers.
So we have to understandhistory, but sometimes we just
I'll just label younon-compliant and move on.
(15:16):
I don't know why you're notworking with me.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, well, you know and we live in, we live in a
fast-paced environment and welive in a binary world where
you're guilty or not guilty,you're documented or
undocumented.
And I think again, this goesback to trading nuance for
attention and it's about diggingmore into the nuance and having
more honest conversations,which is hard because all of us
(15:40):
are doing burnout cultures athing.
We're all working harder thanever before.
So it's one of those thingswhere you kind of have to take a
deep breath and step back andbe really deliberate and really
open about what you're doing.
And even then it's hard to getbuy-in for it a lot of time
because there are so manycompeting pressures on it.
But I do think history I mean,if we're not helping people
(16:02):
understand what came before andwhat all these past experiences
are that have created trauma andmemories and all of that, we're
basically setting them up forfailure.
We can't just slap atrauma-informed and
victim-centered band-aid onthings and send people out into
the field.
That's not fair to them, that'snot fair to the survivors that
are out there, that's not fairto the vulnerable communities
(16:25):
that they're working with.
So and.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
But of course, when that does happen, we will not
take responsibility.
We'll again blame them.
For why didn't you get thisgreat service?
Why didn't you change?
Why didn't you become a betterperson, a better human?
It must be you, it's not, it'snot us.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, and there's a lot of victim blaming and I
think, well, ultimately thereare a lot of the victim blaming
comes from a source of it's.
Actually again, the system iswhat created it and people just
don't know to sort of aim theblame that way, and I think
people really struggle becausewe can't always change the
system right away.
It's easier to it's easier toattribute it to a single person
(17:05):
and a single person singularactions than it is the system.
But another thing that I dowith a lot of the groups is work
really hard to help peopleunderstand.
I at least stayed out loud, behelp them understand.
All right, let's find theplaces in the system where you
do have some level of power.
What are the small things thatyou can change over time based
(17:26):
on your power in the system, andare you going to change the
whole thing overnight?
Absolutely not.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, because where you have influence, where you
can open doors, authority, doyour part and then if everybody
does their little part to pushon the system to make sure that
system is responsive, is kind,is knowledgeable, is skilled.
So let me ask you this questionyou help collaborations build
(17:55):
and sustain themselves.
Would you prefer somebody whohas an inch deep of human
trafficking knowledge to go outthere and help the people, or
would you prefer waiting to helpthe people but becoming more
knowledgeable and skilled?
(18:16):
Which would you go with?
Or is there a third?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
option.
All right, if there's twooptions, I'm going to say wait,
because I think the people thatonly have an inch of experience,
good intentions, all exist, andI'm very happy for people to
have good intentions, and Ithink a lot of times, what we
see in the trafficking world,though, is good intentions can
go really, really wrong andcreate a lot of additional harms
, and so I mean there isobviously a third option, and I
(18:43):
think that third option reallyis the multidisciplinary
approach.
So you have that person withonly an inch, but if they
partner with four other peopleor disciplines that have more
knowledge and they're actuallycollaborating together and
having the conversations, thenthat person can go out and do
what they're good at and onlyhave an inch, because there's
(19:04):
checks and balances to preventthat other harm from happening.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I totally agree.
Totally agree 110%.
So what would you say to thosepeople who are out there lone
wolves, rogue, they're going todo it themselves.
They don't need a collaboration, they don't need a team or they
don't need to bemultidisciplinary.
They can do it.
Stop, all right.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And so I'm being clear.
But I think that those can bereally challenging situations
because in my experience theycome in a couple of different
formats.
Some of them just don't knowRight, and so exposing them to
the support of others in theircommunity and helping sort of
educate some and redirect alittle bit is really great.
And then there's others who arein it for I mean, I'll be blunt
(19:54):
because that's how I am butthere's some people that are in
it really for their own ego,right, to really just sort of
pat themselves on the back, andI think those are the ones that
tend to be dangerous and so andI call those people the rogue,
the rogue entities or people,and there's not a lot you can do
(20:15):
with that subset.
The good thing is it's a verysmall, small, small, small.
The bad thing is they tend tobe really loud and get a lot of
attention.
So you know, there I don'treally know what you do to them.
You can try to educate I thinkeverybody tries to partner with
them, but ultimately you justhave to be better at what you do
(20:37):
than they are.
But I feel like that was also alittle bit negative, because
there absolutely are a lot ofpeople that are out there and
they're doing things and theystart their NGO and they have
good intentions and it's great,and yet they still aren't really
there yet, right?
And those people, I try to justsort of wrap around an
expertise and help themunderstand that, like this is a
learning and growing process andwe're all learning and growing
(20:59):
at all times.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I mean I totally agree with that.
I mean I think every community,or almost every community, has
that sort of rogue entity orperson who's out there that
sometimes you try to wrap themin expertise and collaboration
and they are not having it andso managing that.
It can be stressful, but that'swhat happens in the movement.
(21:25):
It's messy.
Some people are highly skilledand I also agree Weight.
Even though this is somethingthat is critically important,
it's even more important thatyou weight, go deeper, become
skilled and then enter becausewe have passed laws, people have
(21:50):
been overzealous, we havecaused a lot of collateral
damage because people were aninch deep and they ran and they
passed the laws and everybodypassed themselves on the back
and it was one of those examples, I'm suspecting, where they
wanted the individual creditinstead of doing the good for
(22:11):
the people.
So, yeah, I think weighting.
So when somebody is involved ina collaboration, for instance,
I mean what are the best ways tobe collaborative, to be
involved in a collaboration?
How can you be the best at itif you wanted to be
collaborative?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I love that question and you mentioned sort of the
number one not the number onething, but one of the things
that I think is going to bemessy.
It's going to be messy.
You might as well just acceptthat from the get go and let it
slide off your back, otherwiseit's just going to cause endless
frustration and that's nothealthy for anybody.
Open, honest communication isabsolutely vital for
(22:55):
collaborative efforts,especially around human
trafficking.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Open and honest communication.
That can be pretty scarybecause people come to the table
often with their agendas.
They're not always positive,they're not always beneficial.
Sometimes it's to build yourown career.
Sometimes it's because youragency said you have to.
(23:20):
Sometimes you're coming to thetable to say what can I get for
me or my agency instead of howcan we work on the mission?
Hello, I mean, I don't thinkbeing collaborative is intuitive
or innate.
I think it's a skill.
(23:42):
So what say you to somebodywho's like we have a
collaboration, we're good.
Are they good?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So I mean, those are all really good questions and I
think the other thing aboutcollaboration is you're right,
it is a skill.
Collaboration takes work.
I think that was one of the.
So I did a three year visitingfellowship with DOJ at the
Office of Victims of Crime,where I was working with their
enhanced collaborative modeltask forces, and that was one of
the important things for me towork on then is helping convey
(24:17):
that message of collaborationtakes work, it takes time, it
takes attention, it takesintention.
Right, these are people comingtogether with a level of
intention to have a sharedmission and communicate openly,
and the hope is that, goingthrough the process of buildings
that some of those otheragendas have failed to the past
(24:41):
and in service to the mission.
But that doesn't always happen.
And I would say to the folksthat come to me and say like,
hey, we have a collaboration,great.
My first question is cool, whathappens if one of you leaves?
Important?
Yeah, because what we find,what I have found, working with
the task forces, or what we findworking with the task forces,
is everybody wants to talk abouttraining all the time.
(25:03):
We need more training, moretraining, and I don't actually
think that's true.
I think we need better training, but one of the primary
challenges we found is notnecessarily training, it's
turnover.
We have a lot of training, butthe turnover whether it's in law
enforcement or social servicesthe turnover rate is so high
that you get about two or threeyears out of somebody in a
(25:25):
collaborative effort before theymove on.
And that is really tough tonavigate if you don't have some
structures put into place aroundit.
So I was-.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
The idea of attention and intention, because
intention kind of leads you tobuild that good structure in
those systems.
So whether that person leavesor not leaves, the structure is
sort of in place so that thatnew person can plug in and
become educated and skilled.
(25:58):
But it's continuous work, Iguess, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (26:02):
What is so many of my conversations over the last
decade, probably with respect tocollaboration, have been simply
giving people permission toslow down and have that
intention right, because I thinkeverybody knows that this is
obviously it's a horrible crime.
There are lots of victims andsurvivors out there that really
need support and everybody sortof runs immediately in that
(26:25):
direction, usually at theexpense of building that
necessary collaboration.
So again, the conversation thatI've had a lot is giving people
the permission to slow down andbuild their things, because
that's what gives yousustainability in the long run.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Exactly.
I believe people love to saywell, at least we're doing
something.
That's the sentence that kindof gets under my skin the most.
At least we're doing something.
No, take the time to do thebest thing, because that's what
you would want.
If somebody is coming to helpme, I want you to have taken the
(27:04):
time to bring me your best, notjust something.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think that there's enough energy and
individuals and expertise in theanti-trafficking movement that
we can do both.
Right, we can still beresponding to cases while
building an infrastructure, youknow, and solidifying that.
And yeah, one of my leastfavorite things is similar to
(27:30):
years, but instead of at leastwe're doing something, it's well
, we have to do something.
That's when they go off andthere's some sort of silly law
pass that ends up causing a lotmore harm than good at the end
of the day, because people feelthis pressure to do something
but they don't necessarily dotheir homework before doing
(27:52):
something.
So that's a little bit of ascary moment.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Exactly.
I heard one of the lawyers tellme actually Bridget Carr, at
the University of Michigan'sHuman Draftgain Clinic always
look if you're passing a lawwhether state law, federal law
always put on a different hatand say how is this law gonna be
used against poor people,against people of color, against
(28:20):
marginalized people?
If you look at your proposedbill or you don't read bills
because you are not down likethat, ask the people on your
committee, if you're involved,how will this affect the poor,
the marginalized?
Because therein lies some ofthe problem.
(28:42):
It's like we're running oh myGod, this is a great law, let's
pass it, and then we don'tunderstand the collateral damage
that could happen or how otherattorneys will use it against
people who are vulnerable andmarginalized.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I think I need everybody.
I would love for everybody outthere that's moving forward on
good intentions alone to havesome sort of cosmic pause in
their life or a checklist ofquestions to go through, because
good intentions are great, butwithout additional knowledge
they tend to go haywire.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Absolutely.
I mean, I have good intentions.
I would love to run down to ouremergency department right now
and help people, because I havea good heart, I have good
intentions.
So can I just jump in there andhelp like hell?
No, because people are gonnaget infections, I know it's fine
Like so.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
And that's the like.
You know, I was readingsomething a couple of weeks ago
and I was talking about forminga task force, and it's sort of
the first thing you need whenyou're informing a task force is
a sense of urgency, and I hadsomewhat of a visceral reaction
to that, and it's a documentthat I had read previously and
it came out like 15 years agomaybe and I thought you know, 15
(29:57):
years ago.
That made a lot of sense to me.
Now, 15 years later, I get alittle upset or nervous about
that, because a sense of urgencytends to mean people running
forward without the requisiteknowledge to build what we need
and creating infections orgetting people hurt, and so that
for me, I mean on both aninformation and a collaboration
(30:20):
level, just to tie it back towhat we talked about at the
beginning, I think a lot of itis slowing down and taking the
time to make sure that you areprepared and educated on things,
and that's not always easy.
But when I'm talking to brandnew task force directors or
coordinators, the very firstadvice I give them well, first I
tell them take a deep breath.
It's complicated and messy, butit'll be fine.
(30:41):
But the second thing I alwaystell them is give it three
months.
Give it three months to talk toall of the members, to sit back
and observe the workingrelationships, to kind of get a
pulse on and figure out what therhythm of all the different
partners are, right Before youstart planning or doing anything
or whatever, because you needthat time.
(31:03):
I mean, understanding therhythm of your collaborative
group is really important for aleader, and if you just right
and if you dive in and the firstthing you want to do is I can't
even think of a good exampleright now, but you know slowing
down a little- bit and.
I think it's okay for people inthe movement to slow down and
have these conversations.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, I think so too and I think I love you know, to
make sure you know the rhythm.
I love that analogy because Ifeel like on task forces,
commissions, coalitions,whatever you call yourself, that
law enforcement comes into theroom with the big bass drum,
boom, boom, we're here.
(31:44):
We're here to solve, andthere's social services, there's
healthcare people, there'slived experience experts All of
these people make up the rhythmof the song.
And if you're coming in withthe big bass drum because you
got the answers to solveeverything, you drown out the
rest of the band.
So you can't hear the rhythmbecause you're in their pound,
(32:09):
in your big bass drum.
That it's all aboutinvestigation, prosecution and
incarceration.
That's not all it's about.
So I love that rhythm analogy.
And you know, I think programs,just coalitions, tasks you know
they're like the life cycle of aperson.
(32:30):
I mean they're messing with you.
They grow to be an adult.
Hopefully they perform as anadult and eventually they'll get
old and die off.
But you got to recognize whereyou are.
Like what you're saying Sitback, learn, listen.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, they do, and I think and it's this again comes
to being deliberate andcommunication because the world,
that the world and the systemthat law enforcement comes from
is all about that big bass,right, it's all like that's how
they're literally taught andsocialized and that's how
(33:08):
they're, they have to exist intheir law enforcement world, and
so it can be really hard totake a step out of that if you
don't have the right sort ofatmosphere and setting and if
you're not.
But I find that you know, whenyou give people permission to
slow down and be deliberate andtake a deep breath, that they
can, that all of that can kindof shed away a little bit, and
(33:28):
then you can have those largerconversations where it's a
little bit more of an equalplaying field.
But again, that comes back tosystem change and just talking
about all that, which you knowfeels really daunting, but it
doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That's right, absolutely.
And so, erin, if somebody is ona collaboration or coalition or
task force and they reallythey're recognizing through this
conversation wait a minute,okay, let me slow down and make
sure that I'm doing this in aneffective way, in a productive
way.
Is there an opportunity to talkto you or to bring you in to
(34:06):
train or build thiscollaboration and sustainability
?
Is that a possibility?
And, if so, how do people get ahold of you?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Absolutely.
I work with jurisdictions acrossthe country, both through my
own consulting and then alsothrough my role with Project
Roadmap, so individualjurisdictions that aren't funded
by DOJ for the task force canreach out to me on my website or
through my email, which is justErin at newframeworksorg.
(34:39):
And then the other thing I wouldpoint people to is there's an
amazing resource published byOVC and International
Association of Chiefs of Policethat I led the team in putting
together when I was at DOJ andit's called the Task Force
Development and OperationsRoadmap and what it is is
basically it's modeled off offive stages of development
(35:01):
theory or process and it kind ofcharts out different parts of a
task force over a five stageperiod and it's something that
we use with task forces a lot toreally help them kind of
pinpoint where they are and thenwhat they can do next and see
what.
That's always a great thing.
Reaching out to me is a greatthing, and I would be remiss if
I didn't say that there is.
(35:21):
The DOJ has a grant opportunitythat it puts out every year
called the EnhancedCollaborative Model to Combat
Human Trafficking, and so youcan look that up and find
previous solicitations andthat's an amazing opportunity
for a jurisdiction that islooking to start a task force or
one that already has a taskforce, because it's an
(35:42):
investment of money and supportand technical assistance that
can really walk to your point,walk alongside people To support
in building some of thesethings and strengthening that
collaboration.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
That's amazing.
I think those are all amazingresources.
Thank you so much, erin.
Is there any last word ofadvice for people who are trying
to do this work?
What would you advise them todo?
I guess I won't repeatstatistics.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Sorry that was Glib as well, but all of those
statistics we see floatingaround 40 million, 26 point,
whatever million, 14,000 to17,000, all of those really big
statistics that are out therenone of them are accurate.
Just don't use them.
Instead, talk aboutvulnerability, talk about
migrant workers, talk aboutrunaway and homeless youth, but
(36:37):
we have to get to a point.
Actually, part of my trainingthat I do these days is an
actual memorial service to someof those stats that tracks them
back to their source andexplains how they're discredited
at this point.
But that's my biggest piece ofadvice stop repeating stats,
because none of them are right.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Well, and that's exactly true.
When you go back to the source,you will be sorely disappointed
in how they came up with thesestatistics.
We still don't know.
It's all underground, it'sillegal.
No one really has a handle onthe number.
I love that you said don'trepeat I love being Glib, I love
(37:14):
your Glib.
Here's why Because one we needto be skilled and knowledgeable.
We don't have time to pretty itup and figure out how to say it
delicately.
If you're in this business, youneed to hear it and you need to
hear it in the way that it said.
You need to understand it inthe raw way.
We don't need to put a bunch offlowery language around it.
(37:35):
If that is upsetting to you,then you really can't be in this
type of environment.
Us doing the work.
We just don't have time topretty it all up for you.
We just have to say it to youand you have to decide whether
you accept it or not.
Thank you so much, erin.
I so much appreciate your justrefreshing and knowledgeable,
(38:01):
skilled way of presenting to usand letting us know that it's
okay to sit back and relax, takethe time to learn and become
skilled and then get out thereand do the great work.
Thank you so much, erin, and Ihope you continue to do the
great work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, thank you very much.
It was really fun talking withyou.
If anybody needs a pep talk onslowing down, just reach out.
I'm really good at that peptalk.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Awesome, okay, thank you.
That was Erin Albright With themessage take your time, learn
your craft, then jump in and dothe good work.
Take the cosmic pause, slowdown, be deliberate, be
intentional.
(38:50):
I just remember getting mydoctoral degree in.
I felt like I was in the ivorytower for way too long and I was
anxious I was learning,learning, learning.
I felt like I had so much thatI learned and I just wanted to
get out in the world and startdoing things.
It seemed like it took foreverjust to get out there and do, do
(39:15):
, do, but I was so motivated andI haven't stopped being
motivated to do the work.
But I understand you want tojump out there and just do it,
but please learn your craft,learn your skill, become
knowledgeable, surround yourselfwith other knowledgeable people
, collaborate and do the work.
(39:36):
Remember the African sayinglike, if you want to go fast, go
alone, but if you want to dothings well and do it right, it
will take time, right, but gotogether Until next time the
fight continues.
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