November 7, 2023 • 39 mins
Picture this: a young military police officer, serving in South Korea, witnesses the horrors of human trafficking. Later on in life he meets someone that opens his eyes and heart to help fight this grave injustice. This is the real-life story of our guest, Dr. Christian Nanry, a special agent who spent years with the US Marshals and as a military police officer. His compelling journey, shaped by faith and experience, paints a vivid picture of a global issue that is often hidden in plain sight.
In our conversation, we peel back the layers of legal prostitution in South Korea, an industry shrouded in darkness and marred by exploitation. The shocking truth of young girls being recruited from various parts of Asia and Europe, often trapped in a cycle of debt bondage, is a story that needs to be told. But it doesn't end there - we also discuss the power of education in law enforcement and how skills such as critical thinking, problem-solving, humility, and empathy can make a significant difference in this fight against trafficking.
Join us in this conversation. Are you ready to open your eyes, ears, and heart in order to be a part of the change?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
You know the why human trafficking work is needed
To fight for the freedom ofmodern day slaves.
But love, passion, commitmentisn't all you need to be an
effective and successfulanti-trafficking advocate.
Learn the how.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson,director of the Human
Trafficking and Social JusticeInstitute at the University of
(00:23):
Toledo.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation podcast, where I'll
provide you with the latest andbest methods, policy and
practice discussed byexperienced experts in the field
, so that you can cut throughthe noise, save time and be
about the work of saving lives.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson, andthis is Episode 198.
(00:46):
Today I have with me DrChristian Nantry.
And wow, let me paint thepicture.
This guy is currently specialagent with criminal
investigations in the Army.
They call it CID.
You've probably seen it on yourcop shows, that you've watched,
you've heard the word CID.
(01:07):
Previous to that, he was at theUS Marshals Service for 21
years and before that he wasmilitary police in Virginia, at
Fort Hood in South Korea.
I mean, this guy is militarycriminal justice, right.
(01:27):
Seize things black, white, good, bad, serve the people, find
the criminals, have themprosecuted, they go to jail,
move to the next case, right?
How does a guy like thatultra-conservative family start
to see human trafficking Notonly see human trafficking, but
(01:52):
start to understand, listenbecome so engrossed.
He reads a bunch of books aboutit, he talks to a lot of people
, he receives mentorship andguidance and guess what?
His heart becomes verypassionate about this.
He says God places this on himand he can't stop now.
(02:16):
He is so ingrained in helpingthe people, whether it's a part
of his job or not a part of hisjob.
He's very passionate about whathe does.
So I want to introduce him toyou and have him talk about how
he came to this place and whathe actually does today.
(02:36):
So welcome, dr Nantri, orChristian.
I'm so happy that you had thetime to share with us today.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you, and thank you very much for having me on.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah.
So tell us okay, how did youfirst even get involved in the
military and criminal justiceand what are some of the things
that you investigated and thingsthat you did?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, to answer the first part of that question, I
got into the military.
I was a military dependent, orwe like to call military brats.
So I already spent my life withmy father as he deployed or
moved from unit to unit andplace to place and different
parts of the United States.
I was born overseas and I justdecided that for me it was
(03:24):
important to serve my country,so I put that at the foremost of
my decisions to join themilitary and I stuck with the
army because you know, that'swhat I know my father was also
in the army.
So I joined into the militarypolice corps and through that I
had a lot of wonderfulopportunities to receive
training and actually apply whatI learned as a basic patrolman.
(03:49):
So I was dealing with thingslike traffic stops, domestic
disturbances, other types ofincidents like that, and I
became a military working doghandler and took that job over
with me to the Republic of SouthKorea and it was the best
opportunity.
Out of all the militaryassignments that I had, Republic
of South Korea was my favoriteand through there because I was
(04:12):
a certified patrol and narcoticsdog handler and there was a
shortage of those I got totravel to multiple parts of
Korea.
So I got to explore the entirecountry of Korea, immerse myself
in their culture, definitelyfell in love with my time there,
saw some action, as a lot oflaw enforcement officers would
say, but at the same time Ireally got to connect with the
(04:36):
people on the ground, came backto the United States, to Fort
Hood, or it's now called FortKvasos, and then I just decided
at that point that God hadanother calling for me.
So I joined the US MarshalsService in 2001.
And when I was in the MarshalsService I started in DC, went to
Brooklyn, New York, I met mywife.
(04:56):
Then I moved over to aspecialized division, came back
to Texas and for some reason Ifelt kind of restless the
Marshals Service.
I had done so many criticalmissions that are needed by the
people of the US, but I justfelt I had another calling and I
went back to the Army, but thistime I went into CID and right
(05:17):
now I am investigating financialcrimes.
So my entire career not onlyhave I been in different
agencies, but I've donedifferent jobs within the
generalization of lawenforcement, Like I said, being
a patrolman.
I was even on a SWAT team for alittle while, military working.
Then I was a criminalinvestigator for the Marshals
(05:38):
Service fugitive apprehensions,threatened, breach
investigations and then now I'min CID doing financial crimes.
So, I've got a broad spectrum ofa lot of things.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And so how did you come about learning about human
trafficking, let alone devotingsome of your time and your
passion in this area?
How did you even get started inthat?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So it's funny how people learn and as a lifelong
learner, I'm always eager tolearn new things but sometimes
when you're given pieces ofinformation or shared relevant
knowledge, you don't reallyunderstand at the time because
your mind is just not ready tograsp what it really means.
(06:23):
So, as you stated before, I wasvery black and white, and
there's nothing necessarilywrong with that.
It just means that you receivethe complaint.
This is the individual thatyou're interviewing.
You gather the evidence, you'refollowing all the laws and
proper procedures.
This individual goes to court,they get convicted, they go to
(06:44):
jail and a lot of times,especially in the old world, a
little bit more of the old worldlaw enforcement.
It's like done case over.
That's it.
However, when I was in theRepublic of South Korea,
prostitution is legal over there.
So it's a little bit differentof a culture shock.
They actually give yousensitivity training when you go
(07:07):
into Korea.
It's a two week course thatyou're required to take
Everybody has to do it and theytell you about the different
customs and how things mightshock you as an American if
you've never been overseas, andthis is something that, again,
looking at it, very black andwhite I just said oh well, it's
the laws of this country andtherefore, as long as you don't
(07:28):
obviously break their laws, thisis just going to happen.
There's nothing you can doabout it.
And, as I would, go out on townbecause soldiers need to let off
some steam and you go off basebecause you're away from home.
This is a hardship tour, so alot of people can't bring their
families with them.
They're gone for a year.
So you go out and you hang outwith your squad mates or for me
(07:49):
it was my kennel mates, becauseI was a dog handler and over
time, I guess, because I wasn'tparticipating in what was going
on, I just was sitting aroundtalking to people.
I was actually approached bywhat we call the Juicy Girl, and
the reason why we call themJuicy Girls is because they
would approach you and say wouldyou like to buy me a drink?
(08:10):
So when you hand the girl money, she would go over to the
counter, grab you a little shotof whiskey or whatever you asked
for, and then she would comeout with a little vial it looks
like orange juice and she wouldscarf that down while you're
drinking and you would keeppurchasing the drinks.
Okay yeah.
And then one thing would lead toanother and it's all legal but
(08:32):
it's all cash.
And what was important aboutthis and it might shock many of
our listeners who are unawaremost of the people that ran
those clubs and generaled thoseladies were women.
They were not men.
So that also prevented, I think, really encumbered based on my
(08:55):
upbringing and my own religiousbeliefs on how men and women
were that I did not really getit.
So this young girl sat down andtalked to me for about 20 to 30
minutes and she just told mehow the entire process worked
and things that I was told wasMama's son would send out
(09:18):
headhunters they're like talentacquisition recruiters and they
would go out and they would findsomebody, a young girl, that
was attractive, and they wouldfind that this family were
having difficulties financially,they're about to lose their
farm, something that bad wasabout to happen and they would
interject and say, hey, if weemploy your daughter, we will go
(09:43):
ahead and take care of thisbill for you.
We'll let her work it off.
And it was a legally bindingagreement.
This is not.
I don't know if it still goes ontoday, but it wasn't uncommon
back then and the girl would flywith the recruiter back to
Mama's son and then the termsand conditions were really
revealed to the young girl.
And they were from thePhilippines, they're from
(10:05):
Indonesia, parts of Korea, otherparts of Asia, russian girls,
even Albanians.
So you would see girls fromdifferent ethnicities there and
they would work for Mama's son.
So they would work in thesestrip clubs and they're required
to maintain weight.
There was sexual exchanges withsoldiers while they were over
(10:29):
there.
It did happen and this is howthe girls paid off that debt.
But she didn't get into howreally the money was dispersed.
But it would take a period oftime before that debt was paid
off and then the girl was freeto go.
There were instances where Iknew of one in particular where
(10:53):
he used his signing bonus fromthe military to pay off that
girl's debt.
I think he got engaged or Idon't know what happened to them
after that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
But there are situations where that does
happen.
They talk about that in thesensitivity training and you
would have to be careful,because those Russian and
Albanian girls were from theformer Soviet Union, so we were
particularly warned aboutengaging yourself with those
particular young ladies.
So that is the first time itreally smacked me in the face.
(11:27):
I had been around girls thatwere arrested for prostitution
or potential human trafficking,but it was in the middle of the
arrest, the middle ofinvestigation, so you don't
really dive deeply into whatreally psychopathy or really
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Well, I'm so curious what is it about the Russian and
Albanian women that you'reparticularly warned about?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Well, because they work from the former Soviet
Union, they could be spies.
So what they would do is theywould sleep with men and then
would gather information.
That's actually happenedseveral times in the news media
on several different militaryofficers that do get caught up
in those things, and that's whythey told you, even if you're an
E1, e2, e3, private or aspecialist like low rank,
(12:13):
there's still information thatthey can obtain from you that
can be very damaging to themilitary.
So that's why they would warnnot to do that.
And what I was about to say isjust to interject.
Dan Nash and his coworker,allison do a great job in what I
just described, because a lotof times in law enforcement we
(12:35):
would get so caught up in whatwe're doing A equals B equals C
and it goes to D.
A lot of times you would getstuck in.
What do I do now?
You just had this apprehensionand you have these people in
front of you and you don't knowwhat to do.
So I think, and they've beentraveling around the United
States teaching law enforcementorganizations about human
(12:57):
trafficking, treating thetrafficked victims or the
trafficked individualsdifferently instead of just
automatically arresting them onthe spot as prostitutes.
So I just wanted to throw inthere.
I think there's been a lot ofwonderful changes and advances
on law enforcement.
Like you know as a researcher,sociological changes can take a
(13:21):
long time before they'reimplemented properly Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And so you're sitting in the bar, she's explaining
this entire process to you, andwhat are you thinking?
What do you do with thatinformation at that point?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You don't think you could do anything because and I
was young, and that's not anexcuse but you're young and
you're indoctrinated into themilitary mindset and I'm not
saying that to be a bad thingbut there are certain policies
and procedures that you willadhere to and you understand
that this is just what goes on.
(13:57):
It's generally accepted, it islegally okay, so you just don't
do anything with it.
You just kind of put it in yourhead and you just go.
Huh, it didn't really resonatewith me all the way deeply,
potentially like it should have.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So this is your first sort of in your kind of
spiritual awakening.
This is your first kind of tapon the shoulder like, hey, okay,
so you took that informationinto your head, not necessarily
into your heart.
It's legal.
This is the way I've been toldthis could happen.
And then what's the next sortof tap on the shoulder to you
(14:41):
about human trafficking?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I would say that I ran across an individual's
interview online and I waslistening to her about her
experiences at the hands oftraffickers, and what really got
it for me was the lack of powerthat she had.
She couldn't fight back.
(15:07):
This was completely against herwill, and it was something that
I just happened to stumble uponand from there I just said you
know what?
I think I need to read a littlebit more on this, but at this
point of my life I was mucholder.
I had been going throughvarious levels of education, so
(15:28):
my mind was expanding, I wasmore open to learning than I was
before and, more importantly,it wasn't just learning about
the black and white letters onthe page, as what do they mean?
How does this impact the humansoul?
So from there I reached out toa friend and his name is Chris
Seigl.
He's down here in NewBrunffville.
He's the chaplain of the policedepartment, and I started
(15:51):
talking to him about this and hegoes.
You know, I think you shouldget in contact with a woman by
the name of Dottie Laster.
And I said who?
And he goes yeah, let me getyou in contact with her and
Dottie.
You know I always like to makethe jokes on a little bit of a
Star Wars nerd that she's themaster Jedi and I'm still a
(16:13):
padawan.
I haven't learned my lesson yet, but she's been doing this for
about 19 to 20 years.
She's done a lot of this on herown, off of her own dime, her
own ingenuity, her own grit anddetermination.
She has written grants forlarge scale human trafficking
operations.
(16:33):
So she does have thatexperience.
The dealings that was going onin Long Island where they're
fighting the bodies of the womenalong the Long Island sound.
Dottie was actually the privateinvestigator that was turning
over a lot of the information tothe police department that she
said this isn't what you thinkit is.
This is a traffickingorganization.
(16:54):
Here's all the evidence.
So she was and she was alsoresponsible for one of the
largest bus.
I think it was over 150trafficked victims that were
pulled at one time at the time.
She was and this is not a womanthat was ever in law
enforcement.
She was never in the government.
She doesn't have an S on herchest and she doesn't have a
cape.
You know not to criticize.
(17:17):
You would probably look atDottie and say she's kind of
like a soccer mom.
She doesn't really look likewhat you think she should look
like and that is a part actually, I think is an arsenal in her
tool belt, because they don'tsee it coming.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And you, kristen, I mean now, you're at this point
in your life where you'restarting to question and you're
starting to seek out information, becoming quite a secret, so
that you can learn more.
You find a mentor, a guide, asthey say.
You know, when the student isready, right, the teacher
appears and you find this guide,you find this mentor that might
(17:58):
be scratching your head likewhat 19,?
Why are you doing this?
How are you doing this?
How is this happening?
And so quite impressive.
And then what happens fromthere?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Well, I go on this journey with Dottie, where we a
lot of it is.
I want you to read this book.
Remember, I'm the PhD here andshe's like I want you to read
this book.
So this is where I was talkingabout.
You have to be humble first,before anything else.
Yeah, I want you to read thisbook.
And it was actually a bookcalled Sex at the Margins.
And I went ahead and read thebook and she says, okay, what do
(18:34):
you think?
She wanted to hear, what I hadto think about it, and then we
would.
We would have very gooddiscourse or dialogue after that
.
And then it was okay, I'm goingto bring you on this book.
And then, slowly, over time,she started talking about her
cases.
Now I wasn't.
I wanted to learn more, but Iwas trying not to push.
So she gave it to me in a waythat I could start to follow the
(18:58):
breadcrumbs, because a lot ofthe reality that you see around
you you realize is artificialand will start to bother you.
And she looks at signs, signssuch as patterns of behavior,
patterns of movement, that's.
She's like a blood, you know,like kind of like a bloodhound.
(19:18):
She sniffs it out and it'sbased on what she sees and she
hears on her experience.
So then Dottie started gettingme introduced to individuals
that she was working with.
So these are abused people andI say people because not all of
them are girls.
That's a major misconception.
(19:39):
And in fact I did write thatarticle and I will throw this in
really quick that most of thetime men are often overlooked
men and boys and they're noteven categorized correctly,
which is one of the biggestproblems that we have in Dottie
and I and others like MattFriedman, sylvia Friedman and
Dottie kind of got me on thetrail to meet all these other
(20:01):
people.
We talk about the correctcategorization, so how are we?
So when you see all thesenumbers all over the internet,
the tip report which comes fromthe department of state, other
type of institutions, this iswhere Dottie said you really
need to critically look at that,because how do we know that
(20:22):
these people are trafficked?
Do they meet the description ofthe TVPA?
And how many people are notbeing categorized that we don't
even know about?
So then you have to doself-reflection.
Kind of hurts your feelings alittle bit, and this is where
you got to look at yourself as alaw enforcement guy and saying
(20:42):
Maybe, although our processesworked in a sense and it's not
that they're terrible but wecould do a whole lot better.
And Um and through Dottie, Imet dr Melanie Brooke Excuse me,
dr Melanie Baker, I call her mybig sister.
She's out in Alabama and she Imet her, rosie Catilato, who's
(21:04):
up in Minnesota.
So through Dottie and myjourney and Dottie kind of just
she wanted to release me, giveme a little information, because
everybody's gonna fight humantrafficking differently.
They're gonna have differentschool sets, different
backgrounds, and I and she justkind of released me at some
point.
And one of the one of thestories I always love to share
(21:25):
is there is a young girl that Ilearned about and and uh, she,
she was being trafficked by herstepfather, which is very common
.
Usually it's by people thatknow you the best that are gonna
do this and he was selling ortrading off his stepdaughter to
his friends and people that heknew.
And Dottie took her out of thathome and we talked about ways
(21:50):
that she could do it.
I had to be very carefulbecause I can't give legal
advice In my official capacity,nor am I an attorney, but we
still talked about how she couldsafely get this girl and bring
her out and, although she has atremendous amount of experience,
she still valued my input,which is important between that
(22:11):
student-teacher relationship.
So Dottie was able to get herout and one of the biggest
problems that she had was thisyoung girl had never finished
her high school diploma.
So together Dottie had asked medo I have any a Way of getting
to the state so that she can goback and register, because
they're having a dickens of atime.
I actually reached out to acohort member from my doctoral
(22:35):
program and was able to getsomebody Directly to the state,
so I was able to make aone-on-one phone call to
somebody in the state, which isvery hard sometimes, and that
young lady was able to finishher GED and then went on to a
dental hygienics type school.
So awesome it wasn't so.
So a lot of people might notconsider that to be a big thing,
(22:59):
but it really was, because itremoved a roadblock for that
young girl that Potentially shecould lead her own life.
She has that power that Italked about before.
She can make her own decisions.
She doesn't need to go back,even if she thinks that's the
only way to get money.
She doesn't have to go backthere.
But that is significant.
(23:19):
But that's an example that Ilike to give to tell people you
don't have to Reinvent theentire wheel, sometimes just by
helping someone when youactually can do it, and you
don't be afraid Because it'sanother human being.
I think that that's the biggestlesson.
And another, another lesson,and it didn't Ultimately end up
(23:42):
as nice, but I remember that andthis is just to make sure that
listeners are aware of how thisreally happens, because the
police officers in thisparticular and I'll leave the
name of the department outDottie went out to rescue this
young girl that came from amarginalized part of the
community in South San Antonio.
They're Hispanic, they don'thave a lot of money, not to
(24:03):
mention this girl had othercertain mental ailments, which
is also a flag Mm-hmmtraffickers.
They will go after handicappedindividuals or people with
disabilities.
They absolutely will.
And she was 19 years old andshe probably weighed about 90 to
100 pounds, soaking wet.
So Dottie was trying, was beingcontacted by her grandmother
(24:26):
and they had no money To helpfind her granddaughter.
So Dottie, not caring aboutmoney because she doesn't, I
started doing the research andthe evaluation eventually found
this young girl.
So she was able to bring thisgirl to a police department that
I won't name.
And in the police department yougot to understand when you're
(24:47):
meeting a trafficking victim.
They don't op.
They've been so Programmed theydon't understand what's really
going on.
So, for example, you knowDottie's using her own car and
she says alright, if you'regonna go with me, I need to take
your cell phone and agrandmother was there, by the
way.
I need to take your cell phonebecause that's how traffickers
(25:07):
continually talk to theirvictims and it doesn't have to
be a phone call.
It could be a simple text withsymbols, not lips.
They use symbols and thosetrafficked victims know exactly
what that means.
She threw a temper tantrum inthe middle of the police station
and Dottie has a daughter thathas some medical ailments.
(25:30):
But Dottie's daughter was ableto step up and say you need to
trust my mother, she's trying tohelp you and I just want to
make sure people how profoundthis event was.
But the police officer standingaround were kind of like let's
just get the, let's be honest,let's get these people out of
the station, that this just wantthem out and and so Dottie was
(25:53):
able to eventually get the butthe phone and while Dottie was
Getting this all arranged to getthe girl to move, to be moved,
she called me on the phone andshe said that the police
officers here are just notgetting it.
The pimp or the boy came intothe police station with a smile
on his face and a twinkle in hiseye I'm looking for such and
(26:14):
such.
Do you have her here?
Well, I'm really concernedabout her.
And the police officers tookdebate.
They thought he was beingsincere and I Communicated with
Dottie on.
These are some of the thingsthat you can tell them to kind
of.
At least let's just call thisoff, brother, she'll come meet
(26:36):
you later on.
She's gonna go back with thegrandmother.
Just for right now, let's justkind of separate everybody and
let's calm down.
And the police officersactually went, went for that and
, like you know, that's a goodidea.
Let's just get everybody tocalm down.
And Dottie said, all of asudden that boy Changed
everything, started screamingand yelling, costing the police
(26:58):
officers that's when, she said,their eyes got huge, they
couldn't believe what they'reseeing.
And they then they told him youneed to leave.
So Dottie told me when she waslooking outside the windows in
the police stations she couldsee him circling the parking lot
in the outer parking lot, inhis vehicle like a shark?
He was, yeah, so what I?
(27:20):
I suggested to Dottie that thepolice officers can do within
their jurisdiction and there's athing called a radio and moves
faster than any car that you candrive To call the next
jurisdiction the nextjurisdiction to start Shutting
off major roads and and so thatway Dottie is driving with no
traffic behind her, with thisgirl in her car and the
(27:40):
grandmother, and that way shecan create separation and
distance, and it did work.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well.
So you are able to translate,using your expertise, was able
to tell her the strategy to use,the words to use to work with
this entity so that they wouldget it.
And I mean that's where anotherexample of where you were able
(28:08):
to be very helpful.
And you know, when we thinkabout just one person or one
person at a time, you know thatperson will go back into their
family, their community, theirlives, will change their
children's lives If they haveany, make it better.
Their parents may feel relieved, their friends may feel happy.
(28:34):
This person that is in the worldhas reclaimed their options,
their opportunities, theirfreedoms, the way you talked
about.
Now this person has opportunityto choose.
So even when we think about oneperson, you know the ripple
effect of that person'strajectory, of their whole life
(28:56):
and how it affects other peoplearound them that love them, that
care about them.
That's, that's huge.
That ripple effect cannot, is,isn't even quantifiable.
So being able to use yourskills in ways that that your
(29:17):
mentor can call on you and youcan teach your mentor now, and
being able to self reflect,being able to be humble, being
able to process all of thosethings, I suspect comes with
your ability to open your heart,but also your education.
(29:37):
And so what do you thinkBecause we talked a little bit
offline about you know, policeofficers and this conversation
going on Well, you don't reallyneed a degree to be a police
officer, you just need thetraining.
Is that true?
Or do you think education is isimportant and valuable to
police officers?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Based on, based on my research results of certain
studies.
I it was ingrained a little bitof one of the main factors to
reestablish rapport with thecommunity and law enforcement
Education and training and thetype of training were
significant and that qualitativefinding and then in my doctoral
dissertation and a quantitativefinding finding, we were able
(30:22):
to show that you could predictbetter police behavior based on
you know certain variables thatis very common to evaluate
performance, that thatperformance was quantitative, uh
qualifiable, and actually rosebased on the level of education
and it didn't matter what degreebackground that you had.
(30:44):
So I would argue, based on myresearch, the life that I have
lived, the changes that I'veseen in myself, and it helps to
improve performance even day today, the way you articulate, the
way you see the world.
Even you know a lot of lawenforcement officers don't want
to talk about sensitivity toother human beings, but that is
(31:05):
a major component that isactually uh criticized of law
enforcement, that we needempathic training.
We need to learn to have moreempathy towards human beings.
I don't know if that'snecessarily true, but as far as
the overall arching, I thinkpolice officers should want to
have more education, potentiallyin different fields that can be
(31:30):
transferable over to lawenforcement.
You don't need a degree incriminal justice.
You can get a degree in socialwork, psychology, in the
humanities.
Um, none of my college degreesare in law enforcement at all.
Um, my my undergrads and itactually is in history, where I
concentrated on the constitutionand American history, but then
(31:52):
in my master's degree that washuman resources, training and
development, because you'relooking at developing human
beings within an organization Um, and then in my doctoral
program it was adult education,learning about androgyny and how
human, how a human adults learn, because that's primarily
focused on adults, wherepedagogy is on K through 12.
(32:13):
And it doesn't mean wrong, it'sjust people change.
They have different needs andwants in their life.
They develop new interests,kind of like this thing with
human trafficking.
There was a change in my life,but it's important to recognize
the change, and then what you dois you try to remove all the
barriers.
So I would say communities andpolice officers should want
(32:36):
officers with higher education.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think it's the difference between a technician
and an educated expert, so tospeak.
Like a technician, can you know?
If you're in the classroom?
You can.
If you're an elementary schoolteacher, you can go from chapter
one to chapter 12 or whatever,like a technician would.
Or you can follow the policepolicy and procedures, and you
(33:02):
can do that, um.
But being able to obtain thosemega skills critical thinking,
um, being courageous enough topractice humility, like you did,
to accept people who areteaching you you have the PhD,
right, there's somebody handingyou a book to to say, yes, I
(33:24):
need to be humble in this moment.
I need so those mega skillsproblem solving, self reflection
.
I'm going to think, I'm goingto really listen in here, what
this person, this person hassome jewels of wisdom and I'm
going to open myself up toreceive those.
That is a lot of the trainingin higher education, not just
(33:48):
your, you know.
That's why I suspect you'resaying whatever discipline,
that's fine, you can take thosejewels as well, but it's the
mega skills that you're learningas you're in higher education
to be able to receive all of thefrom, all the jewels that you
need to receive in order to takeyour, your next step in life.
(34:10):
So is there anything that youwould offer the listeners in
terms of your journey?
You know you've, you've hadquite the journey.
Um, for somebody who'sinterested in fighting human
trafficking from a criminaljustice perspective or from that
(34:32):
type of discipline, Well, Iwould just go over certain
mental and heart marks.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We've talked about it several times as being humble.
Understand that you might notknow what you think.
You know when you think youknow.
It's not that it's necessarilywrong.
It just might need to bereadjusted a little bit.
Be open to other people'sviewpoints.
I know people use the wordperception a lot, but I like to
(35:02):
use the word vantage point.
I think that's a little bitmore concise.
So and just understand thateven if you don't quite get it
at first, give it some time.
There's tons of research on theway that the mind learns with
your subconscious thinking.
(35:22):
So even when you're not awarethat you're thinking about, your
mind is still processing thatinformation.
Everybody learns at differentrates.
Just realize that, also thateverybody has different gifts or
skill sets.
Just learn how to what, or tryto think how do I take what God
has given me and how do I applythat to make the process better
(35:47):
or improve the process?
Just give it yourself.
So it's not really, not even notreally.
It's not about money.
It should never be about money.
And that at sometimes, I think,is where we as a society,
especially in the capitalisticsociety and I think America is a
great country it still is butsometimes I think we get caught
(36:11):
up in the minutia of how much isthis?
What is my rate of return?
Am I going to get paid a lot ofmoney for this?
Some of the greatest acts thatwe've seen over the course of
history, for different fields,different agendas, different
people have been whenindividuals give themselves
(36:34):
freely and there was noexpectation of reward.
And, in fact, for yourlisteners that do follow the
Christian faith and I have toremind myself this is the part
of that self-reflection andhumility that God doesn't want
you to do things for people andexpect accolades.
So just be continually thatservant, be a servant leader.
(36:59):
So I think that's it's really,it's a grounded approach and I
think that's what people need todo If they want to get into
human trafficking.
Take a quick step back, groundyourself and then say, ok, I'm
going to move forward andinstead of me controlling the
river, just go with it.
(37:20):
Just allow yourself to be takendown that that river, and it
might not take you the way thatyou think you should go, but
just go with it and just it'llhappen.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
That was Dr Kristen Nandri learning, still learning
every day, allowing others toteach him and guide him, even
though he has a PhD.
See, I said it during thepodcast when the student is
ready, the teacher will appear.
(37:52):
What does that mean?
Teachers are there all the timethrough our lives, but we only
when the student is ready dothey see the teacher.
So, christian, who is highlyaccomplished, meet someone who
(38:14):
is able to teach him, guide him,open his eyes up, open his
heart up to work in the field ofanti-trafficking.
What does he teach us?
He teaches us that the teacheris there right now.
(38:39):
In your life you can do greatthings or small things that,
coupled with other people,become great, can help one
person and change their life.
You can help a lot of people,but often you have to be open to
(39:02):
learning, you have to open youreyes, you have to open your
heart, you have to open yourdoors.
The teacher is there, so learn.
Until next time the fightcontinues.
Let's not just do something,let's do the best thing.
(39:22):
If you like this episode ofEmancipation Nation, please
subscribe and I'll send you theweekly podcast.
Until then, the fight continues.
You know the why human trafficking work is needed
To fight for the freedom ofmodern day slaves.
But love, passion, commitmentisn't all you need to be an
effective and successfulanti-trafficking advocate.
Learn the how.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson,director of the Human
Trafficking and Social JusticeInstitute at the University of
(00:23):
Toledo.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation podcast, where I'll
provide you with the latest andbest methods, policy and
practice discussed byexperienced experts in the field
, so that you can cut throughthe noise, save time and be
about the work of saving lives.
Welcome to the EmancipationNation.
I'm Dr Celia Williamson, andthis is Episode 198.
(00:46):
Today I have with me DrChristian Nantry.
And wow, let me paint thepicture.
This guy is currently specialagent with criminal
investigations in the Army.
They call it CID.
You've probably seen it on yourcop shows, that you've watched,
you've heard the word CID.
(01:07):
Previous to that, he was at theUS Marshals Service for 21
years and before that he wasmilitary police in Virginia, at
Fort Hood in South Korea.
I mean, this guy is militarycriminal justice, right.
(01:27):
Seize things black, white, good, bad, serve the people, find
the criminals, have themprosecuted, they go to jail,
move to the next case, right?
How does a guy like thatultra-conservative family start
to see human trafficking Notonly see human trafficking, but
(01:52):
start to understand, listenbecome so engrossed.
He reads a bunch of books aboutit, he talks to a lot of people
, he receives mentorship andguidance and guess what?
His heart becomes verypassionate about this.
He says God places this on himand he can't stop now.
(02:16):
He is so ingrained in helpingthe people, whether it's a part
of his job or not a part of hisjob.
He's very passionate about whathe does.
So I want to introduce him toyou and have him talk about how
he came to this place and whathe actually does today.
(02:36):
So welcome, dr Nantri, orChristian.
I'm so happy that you had thetime to share with us today.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you, and thank you very much for having me on.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah.
So tell us okay, how did youfirst even get involved in the
military and criminal justiceand what are some of the things
that you investigated and thingsthat you did?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Well, to answer the first part of that question, I
got into the military.
I was a military dependent, orwe like to call military brats.
So I already spent my life withmy father as he deployed or
moved from unit to unit andplace to place and different
parts of the United States.
I was born overseas and I justdecided that for me it was
(03:24):
important to serve my country,so I put that at the foremost of
my decisions to join themilitary and I stuck with the
army because you know, that'swhat I know my father was also
in the army.
So I joined into the militarypolice corps and through that I
had a lot of wonderfulopportunities to receive
training and actually apply whatI learned as a basic patrolman.
(03:49):
So I was dealing with thingslike traffic stops, domestic
disturbances, other types ofincidents like that, and I
became a military working doghandler and took that job over
with me to the Republic of SouthKorea and it was the best
opportunity.
Out of all the militaryassignments that I had, Republic
of South Korea was my favoriteand through there because I was
(04:12):
a certified patrol and narcoticsdog handler and there was a
shortage of those I got totravel to multiple parts of
Korea.
So I got to explore the entirecountry of Korea, immerse myself
in their culture, definitelyfell in love with my time there,
saw some action, as a lot oflaw enforcement officers would
say, but at the same time Ireally got to connect with the
(04:36):
people on the ground, came backto the United States, to Fort
Hood, or it's now called FortKvasos, and then I just decided
at that point that God hadanother calling for me.
So I joined the US MarshalsService in 2001.
And when I was in the MarshalsService I started in DC, went to
Brooklyn, New York, I met mywife.
(04:56):
Then I moved over to aspecialized division, came back
to Texas and for some reason Ifelt kind of restless the
Marshals Service.
I had done so many criticalmissions that are needed by the
people of the US, but I justfelt I had another calling and I
went back to the Army, but thistime I went into CID and right
(05:17):
now I am investigating financialcrimes.
So my entire career not onlyhave I been in different
agencies, but I've donedifferent jobs within the
generalization of lawenforcement, Like I said, being
a patrolman.
I was even on a SWAT team for alittle while, military working.
Then I was a criminalinvestigator for the Marshals
(05:38):
Service fugitive apprehensions,threatened, breach
investigations and then now I'min CID doing financial crimes.
So, I've got a broad spectrum ofa lot of things.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And so how did you come about learning about human
trafficking, let alone devotingsome of your time and your
passion in this area?
How did you even get started inthat?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So it's funny how people learn and as a lifelong
learner, I'm always eager tolearn new things but sometimes
when you're given pieces ofinformation or shared relevant
knowledge, you don't reallyunderstand at the time because
your mind is just not ready tograsp what it really means.
(06:23):
So, as you stated before, I wasvery black and white, and
there's nothing necessarilywrong with that.
It just means that you receivethe complaint.
This is the individual thatyou're interviewing.
You gather the evidence, you'refollowing all the laws and
proper procedures.
This individual goes to court,they get convicted, they go to
(06:44):
jail and a lot of times,especially in the old world, a
little bit more of the old worldlaw enforcement.
It's like done case over.
That's it.
However, when I was in theRepublic of South Korea,
prostitution is legal over there.
So it's a little bit differentof a culture shock.
They actually give yousensitivity training when you go
(07:07):
into Korea.
It's a two week course thatyou're required to take
Everybody has to do it and theytell you about the different
customs and how things mightshock you as an American if
you've never been overseas, andthis is something that, again,
looking at it, very black andwhite I just said oh well, it's
the laws of this country andtherefore, as long as you don't
(07:28):
obviously break their laws, thisis just going to happen.
There's nothing you can doabout it.
And, as I would, go out on townbecause soldiers need to let off
some steam and you go off basebecause you're away from home.
This is a hardship tour, so alot of people can't bring their
families with them.
They're gone for a year.
So you go out and you hang outwith your squad mates or for me
(07:49):
it was my kennel mates, becauseI was a dog handler and over
time, I guess, because I wasn'tparticipating in what was going
on, I just was sitting aroundtalking to people.
I was actually approached bywhat we call the Juicy Girl, and
the reason why we call themJuicy Girls is because they
would approach you and say wouldyou like to buy me a drink?
(08:10):
So when you hand the girl money, she would go over to the
counter, grab you a little shotof whiskey or whatever you asked
for, and then she would comeout with a little vial it looks
like orange juice and she wouldscarf that down while you're
drinking and you would keeppurchasing the drinks.
Okay yeah.
And then one thing would lead toanother and it's all legal but
(08:32):
it's all cash.
And what was important aboutthis and it might shock many of
our listeners who are unawaremost of the people that ran
those clubs and generaled thoseladies were women.
They were not men.
So that also prevented, I think, really encumbered based on my
(08:55):
upbringing and my own religiousbeliefs on how men and women
were that I did not really getit.
So this young girl sat down andtalked to me for about 20 to 30
minutes and she just told mehow the entire process worked
and things that I was told wasMama's son would send out
(09:18):
headhunters they're like talentacquisition recruiters and they
would go out and they would findsomebody, a young girl, that
was attractive, and they wouldfind that this family were
having difficulties financially,they're about to lose their
farm, something that bad wasabout to happen and they would
interject and say, hey, if weemploy your daughter, we will go
(09:43):
ahead and take care of thisbill for you.
We'll let her work it off.
And it was a legally bindingagreement.
This is not.
I don't know if it still goes ontoday, but it wasn't uncommon
back then and the girl would flywith the recruiter back to
Mama's son and then the termsand conditions were really
revealed to the young girl.
And they were from thePhilippines, they're from
(10:05):
Indonesia, parts of Korea, otherparts of Asia, russian girls,
even Albanians.
So you would see girls fromdifferent ethnicities there and
they would work for Mama's son.
So they would work in thesestrip clubs and they're required
to maintain weight.
There was sexual exchanges withsoldiers while they were over
(10:29):
there.
It did happen and this is howthe girls paid off that debt.
But she didn't get into howreally the money was dispersed.
But it would take a period oftime before that debt was paid
off and then the girl was freeto go.
There were instances where Iknew of one in particular where
(10:53):
he used his signing bonus fromthe military to pay off that
girl's debt.
I think he got engaged or Idon't know what happened to them
after that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
But there are situations where that does
happen.
They talk about that in thesensitivity training and you
would have to be careful,because those Russian and
Albanian girls were from theformer Soviet Union, so we were
particularly warned aboutengaging yourself with those
particular young ladies.
So that is the first time itreally smacked me in the face.
(11:27):
I had been around girls thatwere arrested for prostitution
or potential human trafficking,but it was in the middle of the
arrest, the middle ofinvestigation, so you don't
really dive deeply into whatreally psychopathy or really
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Well, I'm so curious what is it about the Russian and
Albanian women that you'reparticularly warned about?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Well, because they work from the former Soviet
Union, they could be spies.
So what they would do is theywould sleep with men and then
would gather information.
That's actually happenedseveral times in the news media
on several different militaryofficers that do get caught up
in those things, and that's whythey told you, even if you're an
E1, e2, e3, private or aspecialist like low rank,
(12:13):
there's still information thatthey can obtain from you that
can be very damaging to themilitary.
So that's why they would warnnot to do that.
And what I was about to say isjust to interject.
Dan Nash and his coworker,allison do a great job in what I
just described, because a lotof times in law enforcement we
(12:35):
would get so caught up in whatwe're doing A equals B equals C
and it goes to D.
A lot of times you would getstuck in.
What do I do now?
You just had this apprehensionand you have these people in
front of you and you don't knowwhat to do.
So I think, and they've beentraveling around the United
States teaching law enforcementorganizations about human
(12:57):
trafficking, treating thetrafficked victims or the
trafficked individualsdifferently instead of just
automatically arresting them onthe spot as prostitutes.
So I just wanted to throw inthere.
I think there's been a lot ofwonderful changes and advances
on law enforcement.
Like you know as a researcher,sociological changes can take a
(13:21):
long time before they'reimplemented properly Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And so you're sitting in the bar, she's explaining
this entire process to you, andwhat are you thinking?
What do you do with thatinformation at that point?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You don't think you could do anything because and I
was young, and that's not anexcuse but you're young and
you're indoctrinated into themilitary mindset and I'm not
saying that to be a bad thingbut there are certain policies
and procedures that you willadhere to and you understand
that this is just what goes on.
(13:57):
It's generally accepted, it islegally okay, so you just don't
do anything with it.
You just kind of put it in yourhead and you just go.
Huh, it didn't really resonatewith me all the way deeply,
potentially like it should have.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So this is your first sort of in your kind of
spiritual awakening.
This is your first kind of tapon the shoulder like, hey, okay,
so you took that informationinto your head, not necessarily
into your heart.
It's legal.
This is the way I've been toldthis could happen.
And then what's the next sortof tap on the shoulder to you
(14:41):
about human trafficking?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I would say that I ran across an individual's
interview online and I waslistening to her about her
experiences at the hands oftraffickers, and what really got
it for me was the lack of powerthat she had.
She couldn't fight back.
(15:07):
This was completely against herwill, and it was something that
I just happened to stumble uponand from there I just said you
know what?
I think I need to read a littlebit more on this, but at this
point of my life I was mucholder.
I had been going throughvarious levels of education, so
(15:28):
my mind was expanding, I wasmore open to learning than I was
before and, more importantly,it wasn't just learning about
the black and white letters onthe page, as what do they mean?
How does this impact the humansoul?
So from there I reached out toa friend and his name is Chris
Seigl.
He's down here in NewBrunffville.
He's the chaplain of the policedepartment, and I started
(15:51):
talking to him about this and hegoes.
You know, I think you shouldget in contact with a woman by
the name of Dottie Laster.
And I said who?
And he goes yeah, let me getyou in contact with her and
Dottie.
You know I always like to makethe jokes on a little bit of a
Star Wars nerd that she's themaster Jedi and I'm still a
(16:13):
padawan.
I haven't learned my lesson yet, but she's been doing this for
about 19 to 20 years.
She's done a lot of this on herown, off of her own dime, her
own ingenuity, her own grit anddetermination.
She has written grants forlarge scale human trafficking
operations.
(16:33):
So she does have thatexperience.
The dealings that was going onin Long Island where they're
fighting the bodies of the womenalong the Long Island sound.
Dottie was actually the privateinvestigator that was turning
over a lot of the information tothe police department that she
said this isn't what you thinkit is.
This is a traffickingorganization.
(16:54):
Here's all the evidence.
So she was and she was alsoresponsible for one of the
largest bus.
I think it was over 150trafficked victims that were
pulled at one time at the time.
She was and this is not a womanthat was ever in law
enforcement.
She was never in the government.
She doesn't have an S on herchest and she doesn't have a
cape.
You know not to criticize.
(17:17):
You would probably look atDottie and say she's kind of
like a soccer mom.
She doesn't really look likewhat you think she should look
like and that is a part actually, I think is an arsenal in her
tool belt, because they don'tsee it coming.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And you, kristen, I mean now, you're at this point
in your life where you'restarting to question and you're
starting to seek out information, becoming quite a secret, so
that you can learn more.
You find a mentor, a guide, asthey say.
You know, when the student isready, right, the teacher
appears and you find this guide,you find this mentor that might
(17:58):
be scratching your head likewhat 19,?
Why are you doing this?
How are you doing this?
How is this happening?
And so quite impressive.
And then what happens fromthere?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Well, I go on this journey with Dottie, where we a
lot of it is.
I want you to read this book.
Remember, I'm the PhD here andshe's like I want you to read
this book.
So this is where I was talkingabout.
You have to be humble first,before anything else.
Yeah, I want you to read thisbook.
And it was actually a bookcalled Sex at the Margins.
And I went ahead and read thebook and she says, okay, what do
(18:34):
you think?
She wanted to hear, what I hadto think about it, and then we
would.
We would have very gooddiscourse or dialogue after that
.
And then it was okay, I'm goingto bring you on this book.
And then, slowly, over time,she started talking about her
cases.
Now I wasn't.
I wanted to learn more, but Iwas trying not to push.
So she gave it to me in a waythat I could start to follow the
(18:58):
breadcrumbs, because a lot ofthe reality that you see around
you you realize is artificialand will start to bother you.
And she looks at signs, signssuch as patterns of behavior,
patterns of movement, that's.
She's like a blood, you know,like kind of like a bloodhound.
(19:18):
She sniffs it out and it'sbased on what she sees and she
hears on her experience.
So then Dottie started gettingme introduced to individuals
that she was working with.
So these are abused people andI say people because not all of
them are girls.
That's a major misconception.
(19:39):
And in fact I did write thatarticle and I will throw this in
really quick that most of thetime men are often overlooked
men and boys and they're noteven categorized correctly,
which is one of the biggestproblems that we have in Dottie
and I and others like MattFriedman, sylvia Friedman and
Dottie kind of got me on thetrail to meet all these other
(20:01):
people.
We talk about the correctcategorization, so how are we?
So when you see all thesenumbers all over the internet,
the tip report which comes fromthe department of state, other
type of institutions, this iswhere Dottie said you really
need to critically look at that,because how do we know that
(20:22):
these people are trafficked?
Do they meet the description ofthe TVPA?
And how many people are notbeing categorized that we don't
even know about?
So then you have to doself-reflection.
Kind of hurts your feelings alittle bit, and this is where
you got to look at yourself as alaw enforcement guy and saying
(20:42):
Maybe, although our processesworked in a sense and it's not
that they're terrible but wecould do a whole lot better.
And Um and through Dottie, Imet dr Melanie Brooke Excuse me,
dr Melanie Baker, I call her mybig sister.
She's out in Alabama and she Imet her, rosie Catilato, who's
(21:04):
up in Minnesota.
So through Dottie and myjourney and Dottie kind of just
she wanted to release me, giveme a little information, because
everybody's gonna fight humantrafficking differently.
They're gonna have differentschool sets, different
backgrounds, and I and she justkind of released me at some
point.
And one of the one of thestories I always love to share
(21:25):
is there is a young girl that Ilearned about and and uh, she,
she was being trafficked by herstepfather, which is very common
.
Usually it's by people thatknow you the best that are gonna
do this and he was selling ortrading off his stepdaughter to
his friends and people that heknew.
And Dottie took her out of thathome and we talked about ways
(21:50):
that she could do it.
I had to be very carefulbecause I can't give legal
advice In my official capacity,nor am I an attorney, but we
still talked about how she couldsafely get this girl and bring
her out and, although she has atremendous amount of experience,
she still valued my input,which is important between that
(22:11):
student-teacher relationship.
So Dottie was able to get herout and one of the biggest
problems that she had was thisyoung girl had never finished
her high school diploma.
So together Dottie had asked medo I have any a Way of getting
to the state so that she can goback and register, because
they're having a dickens of atime.
I actually reached out to acohort member from my doctoral
(22:35):
program and was able to getsomebody Directly to the state,
so I was able to make aone-on-one phone call to
somebody in the state, which isvery hard sometimes, and that
young lady was able to finishher GED and then went on to a
dental hygienics type school.
So awesome it wasn't so.
So a lot of people might notconsider that to be a big thing,
(22:59):
but it really was, because itremoved a roadblock for that
young girl that Potentially shecould lead her own life.
She has that power that Italked about before.
She can make her own decisions.
She doesn't need to go back,even if she thinks that's the
only way to get money.
She doesn't have to go backthere.
But that is significant.
(23:19):
But that's an example that Ilike to give to tell people you
don't have to Reinvent theentire wheel, sometimes just by
helping someone when youactually can do it, and you
don't be afraid Because it'sanother human being.
I think that that's the biggestlesson.
And another, another lesson,and it didn't Ultimately end up
(23:42):
as nice, but I remember that andthis is just to make sure that
listeners are aware of how thisreally happens, because the
police officers in thisparticular and I'll leave the
name of the department outDottie went out to rescue this
young girl that came from amarginalized part of the
community in South San Antonio.
They're Hispanic, they don'thave a lot of money, not to
(24:03):
mention this girl had othercertain mental ailments, which
is also a flag Mm-hmmtraffickers.
They will go after handicappedindividuals or people with
disabilities.
They absolutely will.
And she was 19 years old andshe probably weighed about 90 to
100 pounds, soaking wet.
So Dottie was trying, was beingcontacted by her grandmother
(24:26):
and they had no money To helpfind her granddaughter.
So Dottie, not caring aboutmoney because she doesn't, I
started doing the research andthe evaluation eventually found
this young girl.
So she was able to bring thisgirl to a police department that
I won't name.
And in the police department yougot to understand when you're
(24:47):
meeting a trafficking victim.
They don't op.
They've been so Programmed theydon't understand what's really
going on.
So, for example, you knowDottie's using her own car and
she says alright, if you'regonna go with me, I need to take
your cell phone and agrandmother was there, by the
way.
I need to take your cell phonebecause that's how traffickers
(25:07):
continually talk to theirvictims and it doesn't have to
be a phone call.
It could be a simple text withsymbols, not lips.
They use symbols and thosetrafficked victims know exactly
what that means.
She threw a temper tantrum inthe middle of the police station
and Dottie has a daughter thathas some medical ailments.
(25:30):
But Dottie's daughter was ableto step up and say you need to
trust my mother, she's trying tohelp you and I just want to
make sure people how profoundthis event was.
But the police officer standingaround were kind of like let's
just get the, let's be honest,let's get these people out of
the station, that this just wantthem out and and so Dottie was
(25:53):
able to eventually get the butthe phone and while Dottie was
Getting this all arranged to getthe girl to move, to be moved,
she called me on the phone andshe said that the police
officers here are just notgetting it.
The pimp or the boy came intothe police station with a smile
on his face and a twinkle in hiseye I'm looking for such and
(26:14):
such.
Do you have her here?
Well, I'm really concernedabout her.
And the police officers tookdebate.
They thought he was beingsincere and I Communicated with
Dottie on.
These are some of the thingsthat you can tell them to kind
of.
At least let's just call thisoff, brother, she'll come meet
(26:36):
you later on.
She's gonna go back with thegrandmother.
Just for right now, let's justkind of separate everybody and
let's calm down.
And the police officersactually went, went for that and
, like you know, that's a goodidea.
Let's just get everybody tocalm down.
And Dottie said, all of asudden that boy Changed
everything, started screamingand yelling, costing the police
(26:58):
officers that's when, she said,their eyes got huge, they
couldn't believe what they'reseeing.
And they then they told him youneed to leave.
So Dottie told me when she waslooking outside the windows in
the police stations she couldsee him circling the parking lot
in the outer parking lot, inhis vehicle like a shark?
He was, yeah, so what I?
(27:20):
I suggested to Dottie that thepolice officers can do within
their jurisdiction and there's athing called a radio and moves
faster than any car that you candrive To call the next
jurisdiction the nextjurisdiction to start Shutting
off major roads and and so thatway Dottie is driving with no
traffic behind her, with thisgirl in her car and the
(27:40):
grandmother, and that way shecan create separation and
distance, and it did work.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well.
So you are able to translate,using your expertise, was able
to tell her the strategy to use,the words to use to work with
this entity so that they wouldget it.
And I mean that's where anotherexample of where you were able
(28:08):
to be very helpful.
And you know, when we thinkabout just one person or one
person at a time, you know thatperson will go back into their
family, their community, theirlives, will change their
children's lives If they haveany, make it better.
Their parents may feel relieved, their friends may feel happy.
(28:34):
This person that is in the worldhas reclaimed their options,
their opportunities, theirfreedoms, the way you talked
about.
Now this person has opportunityto choose.
So even when we think about oneperson, you know the ripple
effect of that person'strajectory, of their whole life
(28:56):
and how it affects other peoplearound them that love them, that
care about them.
That's, that's huge.
That ripple effect cannot, is,isn't even quantifiable.
So being able to use yourskills in ways that that your
(29:17):
mentor can call on you and youcan teach your mentor now, and
being able to self reflect,being able to be humble, being
able to process all of thosethings, I suspect comes with
your ability to open your heart,but also your education.
(29:37):
And so what do you thinkBecause we talked a little bit
offline about you know, policeofficers and this conversation
going on Well, you don't reallyneed a degree to be a police
officer, you just need thetraining.
Is that true?
Or do you think education is isimportant and valuable to
police officers?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Based on, based on my research results of certain
studies.
I it was ingrained a little bitof one of the main factors to
reestablish rapport with thecommunity and law enforcement
Education and training and thetype of training were
significant and that qualitativefinding and then in my doctoral
dissertation and a quantitativefinding finding, we were able
(30:22):
to show that you could predictbetter police behavior based on
you know certain variables thatis very common to evaluate
performance, that thatperformance was quantitative, uh
qualifiable, and actually rosebased on the level of education
and it didn't matter what degreebackground that you had.
(30:44):
So I would argue, based on myresearch, the life that I have
lived, the changes that I'veseen in myself, and it helps to
improve performance even day today, the way you articulate, the
way you see the world.
Even you know a lot of lawenforcement officers don't want
to talk about sensitivity toother human beings, but that is
(31:05):
a major component that isactually uh criticized of law
enforcement, that we needempathic training.
We need to learn to have moreempathy towards human beings.
I don't know if that'snecessarily true, but as far as
the overall arching, I thinkpolice officers should want to
have more education, potentiallyin different fields that can be
(31:30):
transferable over to lawenforcement.
You don't need a degree incriminal justice.
You can get a degree in socialwork, psychology, in the
humanities.
Um, none of my college degreesare in law enforcement at all.
Um, my my undergrads and itactually is in history, where I
concentrated on the constitutionand American history, but then
(31:52):
in my master's degree that washuman resources, training and
development, because you'relooking at developing human
beings within an organization Um, and then in my doctoral
program it was adult education,learning about androgyny and how
human, how a human adults learn, because that's primarily
focused on adults, wherepedagogy is on K through 12.
(32:13):
And it doesn't mean wrong, it'sjust people change.
They have different needs andwants in their life.
They develop new interests,kind of like this thing with
human trafficking.
There was a change in my life,but it's important to recognize
the change, and then what you dois you try to remove all the
barriers.
So I would say communities andpolice officers should want
(32:36):
officers with higher education.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I think it's the difference between a technician
and an educated expert, so tospeak.
Like a technician, can you know?
If you're in the classroom?
You can.
If you're an elementary schoolteacher, you can go from chapter
one to chapter 12 or whatever,like a technician would.
Or you can follow the policepolicy and procedures, and you
(33:02):
can do that, um.
But being able to obtain thosemega skills critical thinking,
um, being courageous enough topractice humility, like you did,
to accept people who areteaching you you have the PhD,
right, there's somebody handingyou a book to to say, yes, I
(33:24):
need to be humble in this moment.
I need so those mega skillsproblem solving, self reflection
.
I'm going to think, I'm goingto really listen in here, what
this person, this person hassome jewels of wisdom and I'm
going to open myself up toreceive those.
That is a lot of the trainingin higher education, not just
(33:48):
your, you know.
That's why I suspect you'resaying whatever discipline,
that's fine, you can take thosejewels as well, but it's the
mega skills that you're learningas you're in higher education
to be able to receive all of thefrom, all the jewels that you
need to receive in order to takeyour, your next step in life.
(34:10):
So is there anything that youwould offer the listeners in
terms of your journey?
You know you've, you've hadquite the journey.
Um, for somebody who'sinterested in fighting human
trafficking from a criminaljustice perspective or from that
(34:32):
type of discipline, Well, Iwould just go over certain
mental and heart marks.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
We've talked about it several times as being humble.
Understand that you might notknow what you think.
You know when you think youknow.
It's not that it's necessarilywrong.
It just might need to bereadjusted a little bit.
Be open to other people'sviewpoints.
I know people use the wordperception a lot, but I like to
(35:02):
use the word vantage point.
I think that's a little bitmore concise.
So and just understand thateven if you don't quite get it
at first, give it some time.
There's tons of research on theway that the mind learns with
your subconscious thinking.
(35:22):
So even when you're not awarethat you're thinking about, your
mind is still processing thatinformation.
Everybody learns at differentrates.
Just realize that, also thateverybody has different gifts or
skill sets.
Just learn how to what, or tryto think how do I take what God
has given me and how do I applythat to make the process better
(35:47):
or improve the process?
Just give it yourself.
So it's not really, not even notreally.
It's not about money.
It should never be about money.
And that at sometimes, I think,is where we as a society,
especially in the capitalisticsociety and I think America is a
great country it still is butsometimes I think we get caught
(36:11):
up in the minutia of how much isthis?
What is my rate of return?
Am I going to get paid a lot ofmoney for this?
Some of the greatest acts thatwe've seen over the course of
history, for different fields,different agendas, different
people have been whenindividuals give themselves
(36:34):
freely and there was noexpectation of reward.
And, in fact, for yourlisteners that do follow the
Christian faith and I have toremind myself this is the part
of that self-reflection andhumility that God doesn't want
you to do things for people andexpect accolades.
So just be continually thatservant, be a servant leader.
(36:59):
So I think that's it's really,it's a grounded approach and I
think that's what people need todo If they want to get into
human trafficking.
Take a quick step back, groundyourself and then say, ok, I'm
going to move forward andinstead of me controlling the
river, just go with it.
(37:20):
Just allow yourself to be takendown that that river, and it
might not take you the way thatyou think you should go, but
just go with it and just it'llhappen.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
That was Dr Kristen Nandri learning, still learning
every day, allowing others toteach him and guide him, even
though he has a PhD.
See, I said it during thepodcast when the student is
ready, the teacher will appear.
(37:52):
What does that mean?
Teachers are there all the timethrough our lives, but we only
when the student is ready dothey see the teacher.
So, christian, who is highlyaccomplished, meet someone who
(38:14):
is able to teach him, guide him,open his eyes up, open his
heart up to work in the field ofanti-trafficking.
What does he teach us?
He teaches us that the teacheris there right now.
(38:39):
In your life you can do greatthings or small things that,
coupled with other people,become great, can help one
person and change their life.
You can help a lot of people,but often you have to be open to
(39:02):
learning, you have to open youreyes, you have to open your
heart, you have to open yourdoors.
The teacher is there, so learn.
Until next time the fightcontinues.
Let's not just do something,let's do the best thing.
(39:22):
If you like this episode ofEmancipation Nation, please
subscribe and I'll send you theweekly podcast.
Until then, the fight continues.
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