May 18, 2024 • 35 mins
This episode is dedicated to Mental Health Awareness Month -- May 2024 -- in which we explore some of the keys to achieving wellbeing as a human litigator.
Lawyers contemplate suicide at "an exceedingly high rate." Whereas 4.2% of adults have reported contemplating suicide, that figure is 10-12% among lawyers. According to a study published by MDPI, lawyers are prone to mental health issues, including anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. "[O]ur findings suggest the profile of a lawyer with the highest risk for suicide is a lonely or socially isolated male with a high level of unmanageable stress, who is overly committed to their work, and may have a history of mental health problems." Released in 2023, the authors of the study -- Stressed, Lonely, and Overcommitted: Predictors of Lawyer Suicide Risk (Krill, Thomas, Kramer, Degeneffe, and Anker) -- say there is a need for interventions to address these risks, including "education, resources, and support for lawyers to better manage their workload, modifying work demands and expectations, and promoting a culture of openness and support within law firms."
With that as a backdrop, guest host and legal analytics professional Sara Lord interviews success coach and former litigator Gary Miles about the professional dissatisfaction litigators experience when the pursuit of fulfillment clashes with high-stress demands -- from burnout to depression to imposter syndrome. Explore practical strategies for managing anxiety and embracing mindfulness, like reframing your thoughts, celebrating even small achievements, identifying trusted colleagues and mentors, the importance of rest, and reaching out for help. Learn some of the wisdom Gary imparts via his counseling services.
Feeling emotionally crisp? “There is always a solution. Always,” Gary says.
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Need Immediate Help? If you are in the U.S. and experiencing thoughts of suicide, call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988 or IMAlive at 1-800-784-2433. In the UK and Ireland – Call Samaritans UK at 116 123; in Australia – Call Lifeline Australia at 13 11 14; in other countries – Visit IASP or Suicide.org to find a helpline in your country.
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This podcast is the audio companion to the Journal of Emerging Issues in Litigation. The Journal is a collaborative project between HB Litigation Conferences and the vLex Fastcase legal research family, which includes Full Court Press, Law Street Media, and Docket Alarm.
If you have comments, ideas, or wish to participate, please drop me a note at Editor@LitigationConferences.com.
Tom Hagy
Litigation Enthusiast and
Host of the Emerging Litigation Podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Emerging Litigation Podcast.
This is a group project drivenby HB Litigation, now part of
Critical Legal Content and VLEXCompany's Fast Case and Law
Street Media.
I'm your host, tom Hagee,longtime litigation news editor
and publisher and currentlitigation enthusiast.
If you wish to reach me, pleasecheck the appropriate links in
(00:23):
the show notes.
This podcast is also acompanion to the Journal of
Emerging Issues in Litigation,for which I serve as
editor-in-chief, published byFastcase Full Court Press.
And now here's today's episode.
If you like what you hear,please give us a rating.
Yeah, so today we're going totalk about you because we're
(00:46):
worried about you.
Frankly, you're a litigator.
It's stressful.
What are you doing, man?
What are you doing with yourlife?
This whole thing looked waybetter from a distance, or
you're fine, but you just wantto hear this anyway.
So you've got demanding clients, of course, complicated cases,
a lot of stuff to keep track of.
(01:06):
You might have difficultcolleagues, say, or difficult
clients.
You've got a lot of highbillable hour requirements,
maybe and, by the way, you needto drum up some new business and
you got to help the marketingteam.
You got to get out there andYou've got to get out there and
write.
You've got to get out there andspeak.
There's a lot to do.
(01:27):
You might be competing forcareer opportunities and money
and again, you've got theworkloads.
Anyway, you might be stressed,you might be frustrated, you
might be unfulfilled.
I promise this gets a lot morecheery.
(01:48):
Gary Miles is a success coach,author and former litigator.
He knows what you're goingthrough and he helps lawyers
struggling, like maybe you, tofind fulfillment and success in
a career that you know theyreally thought was going to be a
lot more fun.
Frankly, he's been described asinspiring, motivational, wise,
patient, thoughtful.
He's an exceptional listener.
(02:10):
They hear nothing about hisdance chops.
Gary coaches clients throughissues and disputes that are
holding them back.
He wants to help them achievetheir dreams.
So there you have it.
He's an experienced trialattorney, trained mediator.
He was managing partner ofHuseman Jones and Miles for
three decades.
He doesn't shy away fromdifficult situations and that's
(02:36):
borne out by his volunteer workas a marriage mentor and couples
counselor.
Good God, gary assures us thereis always a solution Always.
And I welcome back to theEmerging Litigation Podcast,
sarah Lord, considered by herfriends and colleagues as a
terribly competent ray ofsunshine.
Sarah is a former practicingattorney with a decade of
(02:59):
experience in data analytics.
She applies her experience inlaw firms and businesses to
address the cultural andpractical barriers to diversity
in law.
She applies her experience inlaw firms and businesses to
address the cultural andpractical barriers to diversity
in law.
She applies her talents tosupport the creation of value
through legal operations andputting clients first.
Most recently, she was managingdirector of Legal Metrics,
(03:21):
where she led a team of expertsfocused on providing the tools
to support data-drivendecision-making in legal
operations and closercollaboration between law firms
and clients through the use ofautomation and the
standardization of industrymetrics.
Sarah earned her JD from NewYork University School of Law.
And now here's Sarah Lord'sinterview with attorney and
(03:44):
coach Gary Miles, and because Ican't help myself, you'll have
to hear me there toward the end.
Hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Welcome to all you podcast people in podcast land
and welcome to Gary Miles, ourguest for today.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Thanks for having me.
Glad to be here, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So let's dive straight into the deep end, gary
.
We continue to read aboutattorneys who are struggling to
find joy and satisfaction intheir careers, leading to mental
health issues, addiction andeven suicide.
So what happens after swearingin that leads so many of us to
feel drowned and defeated?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well, I think it happens Two problems.
The one is we accept the firstjob we get.
We're the best job.
Best is defined by most money,most prestige.
But we haven't really taken astep back and thought what do I
want to do?
Where do I want to be?
Where do I want to work?
What kind of people do I wantto work with?
(04:45):
Do I want to have independenceand autonomy?
And so sometimes we take thisjob that we think it's going to
be just fantastic Can't believeI got that offer and then it's
not at all in alignment withwhat we were actually looking
for.
And so we're there three yearsin and we get frustrated.
Why did I pick that job?
It's not what I want and itcomes down to expectations.
(05:07):
We think when we get this jobafter working so hard in college
and law school and interviewingall our problems are going to
be solved, and they reallyaren't.
There ends up being more stress, more competition than maybe we
ever envisioned competitionthat maybe we ever envisioned?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Is the stress and competition in the legal
environment necessary?
I certainly have heard over thecourse of my career that the
pressure cooker environment, thebackstabbing, the competition,
is necessary to separate thewheat from the chaff.
What's your?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
perspective on that.
No, I don't think it'snecessary at all.
That's my opinion.
I have always looked at theworld as a world of plenty.
I don't think we need tocompete for the one or two
clients who are out there fighttooth and nail to get them.
I think we can all do well inlaw school.
We can all get good jobs.
We don't have to worry aboutbeating out the person sitting
(06:07):
at the desk next to us to getthat job.
So I don't think it's necessaryat all, and I think a lot of
other folks feel that way andthey leave that pressure cooker
and some start their own firms.
They create the culture theywant, culture they want.
They may create a firm wherework balance, life balance is
critical.
Folks are allowed to haveflexible hours and we can make
(06:34):
the law practice whatever wewant it to be, and I don't think
we have to buy into the factthat that's necessary.
I did litigation.
A certain amount of competitionis inherent in litigation,
because it's going to be meagainst you.
One of us is going to win, oneof us is going to litigation
because it's going to be meagainst you.
One of us is going to win, oneof us is going to lose.
You can't change that.
But we can do that in a waythat is professional and
courteous and doesn't need to beas competitive as it is that
(07:08):
are primary when it comes topracticing law that, if resolved
, could help litigatorsspecifically recapture the joy
in their careers.
Well, the one struggle so manylawyers deal with is a billable
hour model.
I think it creates so muchstress for so many.
It creates conflicts betweenthe law firm and the attorney.
I'm being told to bill morehours.
I don't have enough work tofill those hours, or my work's
(07:30):
only being measured by how manyhours I bill.
They don't really appreciatewho I am or the quality of my
work.
It creates conflicts betweenthe law firm and the client.
But for litigators specifically, the main thing is what our
mindset is.
I tried cases for 45 years andin the beginning I was so
obsessed with whether I wasgoing to win or lose, and
(07:50):
specifically whether I was goingto lose.
I expected to win, but Iworried so much about losing.
It just created this wholepressure throughout the case,
throughout preparing for it, andwe worry about what other
people will think about us.
What will my client think if Ilose?
What will Sarah think of me ifI lose?
What will other people aroundme?
How will they judge me?
And all those thoughts are sounproductive, create stress and
(08:14):
make us more likely to failrather than succeed.
The analogy I always give is Iplay golf.
I play golf a lot and if I'mheading over the water and I
think, what's it mean if I hitinto the wooder, how will that
affect me?
How will that affect my score?
I'm going to hit in the wooderbecause it's what I'm starting
to obsess about.
But if instead, I think I liketrying cases, I like taking
(08:37):
depositions, I'm going toprepare my opening, I'm going to
prepare my witnesses.
That's fun, I'm good at that.
So I encourage trial lawyers tothink about the process of what
you're doing, think about howyou're helping your client, but
stay in the present, stay in themoment, stay in the preparation
mode, stay in the being alawyer mode and stay out of the
future, because we don't knowwhat the future will be.
(08:59):
I had a good friend at my clubwho was a great tennis player
and I said what is one thingthat makes you so good?
He says I don't care if I winor lose, I don't care, I just go
out and play tennis.
And that's such a great thoughtto have.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's really difficult for litigators when
you're approaching these casesthat have a significant impact
on your career, have asignificant impact on your
client to be able to step backand separate your own identity
from the outcome.
(09:35):
The outcome Since a lot ofthese cases are very high stakes
even if they're not a lot ofmoney, even if they're not a big
public impact for the clients,they're huge, they're material,
(10:05):
they're important.
So if you are really looking tomake that mental separation for
your mental health purposes,for your ability to focus and be
successful individually as wellas professionally, are there
certain recommendations you havefor those litigators to sit
down and really identify theirprimary struggles and what
changes they may want toimplement?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Sure.
So in terms of their primarystruggles.
When I coach a client, I saywhat is it that causes you
stress?
What is it about your work,about someone you work with,
about the kind of emails you get, about the kind of
communications you get?
What is it that makes youanxious and stressed?
Is it worrying about the future?
And that's the first step isidentifying what is it in my
(10:46):
life that creates anxiety orstress.
And the next step is how do youfeel when you feel stressed?
What's the first thing thathappens?
Your heart races, you getsweaty, you get shorter breath.
What is it?
And then we can start unpackingthat.
So you're starting to feelstressed.
You got that email.
Okay, let's step back.
(11:07):
Is that something you did tocause that?
Is that the client being aclient?
Is that something you canchange?
And I encourage my clients toaccept those things in their
life.
They can't change.
I just coached someone who hasa very difficult client.
He will always be a difficultclient.
Instead of getting frustratedthat this difficult client is
difficult, just know he'sdifficult and get through it and
(11:30):
do your work.
And if you don't want torepresent him, don't represent
him.
That's your choice.
But if you're going torepresent him.
Don't get mad at him for beingdifficult.
So I think a lot of it comesdown to acceptance of those
things we can't change, beingmindful of how we're feeling,
and the one thing we have powerover is our thoughts.
You know, if I'm kicking fieldgoals for the Ravens and I'm
(11:52):
Justin Tucker and I got a 64yarder to win the game, if I'm
thinking the whole game rides onmy right foot, I'm probably not
going to do so well.
So he has trained his mind tojust focus on his technique.
The 64 yarder practice is thesame as the one with three
seconds left in the game and wecan do the same.
But it takes practice and ittakes work to really change what
(12:14):
we think about.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So if I'm struggling and I am identifying what I find
to be most stressful, what Ifind to be most anxiety inducing
, determine what I can change,what I can focus on and what
actions I need to take.
That impacts not just me and myclient.
(12:38):
It impacts the professionalsaround me.
So when it comes to addressingthis in the workplace, is there
still a stigma around that?
Are there certain practicesthat can help somebody maneuver
those relationships effectively?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I don't think there's any stigma about what you just
said.
If we change how we think Imean, if we're working in a law
firm with 100 lawyers and acertain number of partners and
some difficult staff that workunder us there are going to be
some frustrating people thereright, there have to be in the
world, because none of us areperfect and I've learned that
when I focus about what's wrongin someone around me which I
(13:18):
used to do all the time it's avery frustrating place.
But if, instead, I focus onwhat they're good at, it's a
better place.
And there's no stigma about howI think, about people changing
my thoughts, being a betterlistener, being more empathetic.
There's no stigma to that.
The only stigma that peoplefear is when they're really
(13:39):
struggling and need support, andsometimes people are afraid to
reach out for it because they'reafraid then I'll be judged as
being inadequate or not goodenough or a failure.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So if those are stressors for them, if they're
concerned about being able tohave those conversations at work
.
The more senior you get, themore control you have over your
environment.
But let's say you aren't at apartner level.
You're an associate.
You're a senior associate,maybe a junior partner, and you
(14:12):
are feeling anxiety and you needthe buy-in from the rest of
your team to make some changesto your, your workload, your
process, your approach.
How, how do you do that whenyou're afraid that even raising
the issue is going to put ablack mark on your name.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Well, the one suggestion I always have is find
someone outside the firm youcan talk to about it, so you
really process what's going onand you make the right choice.
That's what I found with theclients I work with, where I
mentor them, where they feelmost grateful they have someone
to talk to about thosecircumstances and they can help
to determine the appropriateresponse.
(14:55):
Appropriate response may beit's OK, it's no big deal.
I was obsessing about somethingthat's not that important, it
doesn't really impact me.
Or it may be this is really abig deal and I need to say
something.
Or it may be even if I saysomething, it won't go well.
I need to maybe look at adifferent environment in which
to work, but having someoneoutside the firm you can talk to
(15:18):
, because one of the biggestproblems all lawyers have is
this feeling of beingdisconnected.
We work in a law firm with alot of lawyers, but we're afraid
to really be open and genuinewith them because we don't want
to be judged.
We don't want the managingpartner to think we're not good
enough.
So the struggles we're havingwe often struggle in silence and
that just makes it so muchworse to struggle in silence.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And I certainly know many attorneys practicing in law
firm environments who feel likewhenever they try to make a
change, if they ever try toaddress some of their stressors
get a little bit of support.
They get told that they arefailing in their career, they're
(16:04):
not pulling their weight,they're not doing everything
that is expected of someone inthat position in that firm.
And the larger the firm is, themore prestigious it is, the
more that can feel overwhelmingin the sense that you're getting
it from all sides.
(16:26):
You know, in a smaller firm youcertainly can have the same
kind of pressure and the samekind of culture, because they're
frequently populated by peoplewho grew up in bigger
environments and brought thatculture with them.
But I think in a smaller firmthere's a feeling of you have a
(16:48):
few more options.
Right, you can leave a smallerfirm, go to another firm and
there's less of that shadow thatcomes with you.
But if you're at one of the topfirms in the country and you're
struggling and you're leavingthat environment, it can feel
like the whole world is nowaware that you aren't a good fit
(17:12):
, because you need a little moreattention, you need a little
more support, you need to carveout a little more space.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Do you have any views on that?
Well, I think there's a lot oftruth in what you said, except I
would.
If I was working with thatindividual, I'd work with them
to change their mindset.
Maybe you weren't a fit forthat big firm, but so what?
That's not who you are, and youmay not even want to be who the
person has to be to be happythere.
Maybe it's more important foryou to have some independence
and some autonomy and some timeto go out and play golf or
(17:49):
listen to music, whatever itmight be.
Maybe your family's moreimportant.
Maybe you want to choose yourown path, create your own
culture.
So that's okay.
I would encourage, I would workwith that person, help them see
.
It's okay that you aren't a fitthere and maybe that's what
it's supposed to be and there'snothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with that.
You know, I graduated number onein my law school class.
(18:11):
I clerked in federal court.
I never worked in big law.
I never worked in big law.
I wanted.
I'm not sure exactly what mythought process was at the time,
but I think I realized I'mprobably more independent and
more entrepreneurial and I wentinto a small firm.
I ended up owning and managingit for 30 years.
I think that's who I wassupposed to be.
I couldn't fit into someoneelse's box.
(18:33):
That isn't who I am and that'sokay, even though on the surface
, someone might say why didn'tyou go with the biggest firm in
Baltimore which I could havedone instead of going to the
small firm that not many peoplehave heard about?
I think that's where I wassupposed to be.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, and that's certainly difficult for
attorneys who have come out oflaw school and gone to a large
firm where the workload isoverwhelming and they're running
themselves into the ground.
I have found that a lot ofthose individuals can't even
find the time to think aboutwhat they want.
(19:08):
They were just chasing theprestige, chasing the paycheck
in order to pay off the studentloans, in order to check all of
those boxes.
And when you sit down with themand say, you know, in order to
check all of those boxes, andwhen you sit down with them and
say, well, what are you lookingfor, they don't really have an
(19:37):
answer because they haven't whatthey need.
And how they respond indifferent situations and where
they feel comfortable and all ofthese introspective is that a
word?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yes, introspective is a word.
Okay, good, all good words,you're right on.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
All right, awesome.
So it seems like that really iskey to the kind of job
satisfaction and well-being thatI know you've been focused on
in your role as a guide, as acoach.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I think you're right and I would say to that person,
if we ever spoke and he or shesaid I don't have the time to do
that, that's the problem,actually.
That points up with the problemis you don't think you have two
hours to find some time foryourself to sit outside on the
patio on a Saturday morning andreflect about what's important
(20:37):
to you and where you want to beSaturday morning and reflect
about what's important to youand where you want to be.
And that's something that hasto change, because there's no
more important client in ourpractice than ourselves.
And I always think, however youlook at it, that we should
carve out two hours a weekminimum and make ourselves our
best client, give ourselves theattention we give to our best
(20:57):
client, because we deserve it.
I mean, it's our life.
We're not owned by the firm.
It's our life and we'reresponsible for the choices we
make and we're never stuck.
We have choices.
We can be who we want to be andbe where we want to be, doing
what we want to do, andparticularly if we're in a big
firm, we obviously have a greatreputation, develops a good
(21:19):
skill set, did well in school.
We can create our own world andmake it exactly what we want it
to be If we're willing to takethat chance to do it.
Sometimes it's easier to justbe stuck and be a victim of that
, but it takes courage and somework to really figure out what
we want and then make it happen,and some work to really figure
out what we want and then makeit happen.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
So if I want to carve that two hours out but even the
thought of that is anxietyinducing Do you have any
recommendations on how to babystep my way into that Ways to do
it?
That might reduce some of theanxiety that I'm having just
thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, I encourage all my clients to literally plan
each day.
So plan on Monday what we'regoing to do and when we're going
to do it.
But when it comes to carvingtime out for ourselves, carve
two hours out on a weekend anddon't take calls, don't take
texts from the office.
If we're married, let ourspouse know.
You know I'm going to do somereflection and maybe the spouse
wants to be part of it.
But it also really helps tohave a third party help with
(22:30):
that, because sometimes wereally have a hard time figuring
ourselves out and one of theproblems I've seen is so many of
us limit our future based onour past experiences.
I remember when I was startingmy podcast.
I have my own podcast.
I remember starting and Ithought I could never do that.
You know I'm 66 years old.
Who starts a podcast at 66?
And I realized why my coach hadme say you can do that.
(22:53):
I mean you'd be great at it andI couldn't see myself for that.
And so often we can see inother people a future that often
they can't see in themselves,because our vision my vision for
you isn't constrained likeyours is by your past
experiences, and we often welook at our past.
We look at our failures, ourobstacles, our limitations I'm
(23:15):
not very good at, you know, I'mnot very good at public speaking
or whatever it might be and sowe can create a world and make
it whatever we want to be, andjust have a vision of what we
can be.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
That sounds lovely, and it sounds lovely to be
surrounded by people who arehelping you in that mission,
right?
So having a network ofindividuals who can relate to
what you're going through andcan help you think through
possibilities and help flag yourskills as well, like what you
(23:49):
are good at, because sometimeswe have our own skew that may
not be reflective of reality ormay no longer be reflective of
reality, and having that networksounds like it's a great way to
break through some of thosebarriers.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yes, it can be.
And we talk a lot aboutimposter syndrome and it's crazy
how many lawyers don't seethemselves as being the
successful, competent,intelligent, experienced lawyer
they really are.
They're the only ones who don'tbelieve in themselves.
And that's how having a goodfriend, a professional colleague
(24:33):
, a mentor, someone who canreally say look, you are that
good, look at what you've done.
And I find that with my clients, all the time they keep saying
I'm afraid I'm going to screw up.
I say, well, how many timeshave you screwed up in the past?
That was a problem.
They almost never have.
They're very, very good andvery successful.
But we're our own worst enemies.
I'm so hard on myself.
(24:58):
My wife drops something.
I said that's okay, We'll cleanit up.
I dropped something.
It's the end of the world.
What a clod.
How could you do that?
The way we talk to ourselves isso much harder than we talk to
our spouse, our child, our bestfriend, our dog.
It doesn't matter, we're sohard on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, that is an excellent point.
That voice in our head can bepretty critical when it's
talking about our own failingsisn't the right word our own
areas of growth really to trackit and see where we are and how
we're doing, and give ourselveskudos as well.
(25:32):
How often do you stop and say Idid a really good job?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Right.
You know, we don't really dothat, and that's an important
thing, what you just said.
We should celebrate our wins,and that's something I have,
someone my clients do every day.
Write down, you know, often wego to bed and we're stressed,
we're worried about how thiswill work.
We're worried about that nextemail.
What's going to the clientgoing to say tomorrow, which we?
What's going to the clientgoing to say tomorrow, which we
have no power over, when we'retrying to go to sleep?
(25:56):
So I say, instead, celebrateyour victories.
What worked out well today?
Who did something nice to you?
Who did something helpful?
What good ruling did you get?
What work did you getaccomplished?
Write down a list of yourvictories for the day, the
things you did or the thingsthat were done for you.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
That were something you have to be grateful for, and
I'm a big fan of thinking aboutthings incrementally.
So when I'm thinking about twohours a week, if that feels
overwhelming, starting with ahalf hour and saying oh, the
world didn't end.
I wasn't around for a half hour, I turned my phone off.
That's terrifying.
And yet at the end of the halfhour everyone was still alive.
(26:37):
You know nothing, nothingdramatic happened that couldn't
have waited that.
And then kind of pulling thatand saying, okay, well, let's
try an hour and let's let's stepit up so that you're not
spending two hours that firsttime, just in in a panic, right,
you're, I've carved it out, butI can't do anything productive
(26:58):
because I'm too worried aboutwhat I'm missing, right?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
And you make a good point.
It doesn't have to be atwo-hour block in a week.
It could be 30 minutes fourtimes a day and really I think
it's a great practice to wake upin the morning and before we
rush to get dressed and get ourcoffee.
Some of us are late getting ourcoffee today, but and get our
coffee.
Some of us are late getting ourcoffee today, but before we get
our coffee.
You know why not spend 15minutes just in reflection?
You know, what do I want to getdone today?
(27:23):
Where am I?
What could I do better?
What am I grateful for?
Just a little bit of mentalreset before we start our day,
and maybe that means we get up15 minutes earlier.
But if it's at 6 30 in themorning, no one's going to miss
us, you know.
Or whatever time it is, justtake that time.
Go outside for a walk if theweather's good, or sit out on
the patio or in your kitchen oron your lounge chair and just be
(27:46):
quiet.
And we do get addicted to ourphones, like you made a joke,
but it's very hard to turn offour phone.
Turn it off, put it aside andjust be present with ourselves
enough.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Put it aside and just be present with ourselves.
I also just one of my practices.
I started a couple of yearsback, when it was clear that I'd
be working from home for awhile.
I bought an espresso machinefor my cappuccinos, decided that
that was more affordable thanmore affordable than you know
buying one, buying cappuccinosevery day.
So, and I have to say that the10 or 15 minutes it takes to
(28:25):
make the coffee, when I'm doingit myself and I'm steaming the
milk myself and I'm grinding thebeans myself it is it can feel
like a lot of time, but it'slike mental downtime.
It's a 15-minute window for meto just reflect on what's coming
(28:45):
.
The rest of the day I am makingthe coffee effectively on
autopilot and I can let my mindsettle and prepare for what's
coming in the next step.
So I feel like sometimes it'snot just about setting aside
time to stop and think.
It's about building extra timeinto some of your daily tasks.
(29:09):
Don't rush through everythingin order to get to the office as
soon as possible to do all ofthe tasks that are that are on
your backlog, cause there willalways be a backlog, there will
always be something else to do,there will always be more and
instead building in that littlebit of luxury for whatever that
(29:29):
is for you to get, that, thatmental break throughout your day
.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
And if I would add to that, you were kind of talking
about your morning routine, andso was I, and that's so
important.
But during the day is importanttoo.
Analogizing to sports.
If I'm running a marathon, Idon't train for a marathon by
running a marathon seven days ina row before that, because my
body would break down and I'd beburned out.
If I'm trying a case for nextweek, if I spend the first seven
(29:58):
or eight days before it working12 hours a day on that case,
I'm going to be burned out, Iwon't be sharp, I won't be on my
best game and we take a timeoutin a basketball game so the
players can have a break and weneed to take a timeout during
our day.
I have found folks are so muchmore productive when they
(30:19):
actually take time off duringthe day and you say well, how
could that be?
I lost 45 minutes taking offthose three 15-minute breaks.
You will be more productive,you will get more done.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So, Tom, what do you have to add to this conversation
?
I know you have thoughts.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I couldn't help but think Think of the tie into
Buddhism.
I have to think you have someinfluence from that, gary.
I don't know, but the wholething about dwelling on the past
and Buddhism, it's like thepast has to take care of itself.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And then if you're dwelling in the future, you're
catastrophizing, you're worrying.
It's not terribly productive.
That's not to say you don'tlearn from the past, you don't
plan for the future, but you'retalking about being in the
moment.
I going through some stressmyself.
When I was starting my businessand there was all this calamity
, I finally had to put somethingon my desk that said what can
(31:12):
you do right now?
And then you talked about the,about spending the time
reflecting on yourself, yourcareer.
What kind of questions arepeople asking themselves in
those kind of moments that youwould recommend?
What's that self-conversationlike?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
What are my most important values?
What is it that is mostimportant to me in my life?
What can I do as a lawyer thatI would really, really enjoy
doing?
What would light my fire?
What would I have fun doing?
What does that look like?
Is it big firm, small firm, myown firm, government, working
for some public interest group?
(31:51):
What does that look like?
Where do I physically want tobe?
Do I want to be in a city, atown, virtual?
What kind of people do I wantto work with?
What kind of clients do I wantto represent?
What kind of law do I find funand invigorating instead of
boring and mundane?
Those are the kinds ofquestions that I help my clients
(32:12):
walk through to really chartwhat they want their path to be.
And maybe they end up saying I'mexactly where I'm supposed to
be.
I just need to change the way Ilook at it.
I need to stop making myself avictim.
Or they may say this isn't whatI want at all.
I've been trying to put thisround peg in the square hole and
it doesn't work.
I don't fit here, that's okay.
(32:34):
That's okay.
Don't worry about being judgedby other people.
They think it doesn't matter.
What matters is if we're happy,fulfilled and satisfied.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, that mindset changes and I know you're not
saying it's easy, because it canbe a lifetime of thinking one
way that, oh, I'm a failure, Ican't do this, I can't do this,
I can't do that.
It occurred to me one day.
My sister-in-law is a socialworker, counselor, and she was
talking to me about affirmationsand me I just think my default
(33:07):
is oh, that's ridiculous, thoseare silly.
And then it occurred to me it'slike well, certainly, telling
myself negative things aboutmyself works, so why might not
the reverse also work?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Well, affirmations are a good process and we do
fill our mind with negativethoughts about ourselves.
So you're right, why not lookat ourselves as successful and
worth it and deserving?
But the other thing I encouragepeople to do is to write a
self-image of yourself.
As you see, you now Strengths,weaknesses.
Who are you as a lawyer, as aperson, as a family member?
(33:42):
And in the ideal, perfect world?
If you could have any image ofyourself you want, what is your
ideal self-image of yourself?
What does that look like?
And that's the goal where wetry to get to, and so often we
find we're actually a lot ofthose things already, but we
don't give ourselves credit forit, or we may find this is what
(34:05):
I see myself doing.
This isn't the ideal me to bedoing what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So thank you again, Gary.
I really appreciate you comingon.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed chatting withyou and Tom Really appreciate
you coming on.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
I really enjoyed chatting withyou and Tom and I thank you guys
for all you do to help make theworld of litigation a little
bit better, to help lawyers bemore informed and to have
resources that they can tap intoto answer some question or some
need of their own.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That concludes this episode of the Emerging
Litigation Podcast, a coproduction of HB Litigation,
critical Legal Content, vlexFast Case and our friends at
Lost Street Media.
I'm Tom Hagee, your host, whichwould explain why I'm talking.
Please feel free to reach outto me if you have ideas for a
future episode and don'thesitate to share this with
(34:55):
clients, colleagues, friends,animals you may have left at
home, teenagers you'veirresponsibly left unsupervised,
and certain classifications offruits and vegetables, and if
you feel so moved, please giveus a rating.
Those always help.
Thank you for listening.
Welcome to the Emerging Litigation Podcast.
This is a group project drivenby HB Litigation, now part of
Critical Legal Content and VLEXCompany's Fast Case and Law
Street Media.
I'm your host, tom Hagee,longtime litigation news editor
and publisher and currentlitigation enthusiast.
If you wish to reach me, pleasecheck the appropriate links in
(00:23):
the show notes.
This podcast is also acompanion to the Journal of
Emerging Issues in Litigation,for which I serve as
editor-in-chief, published byFastcase Full Court Press.
And now here's today's episode.
If you like what you hear,please give us a rating.
Yeah, so today we're going totalk about you because we're
(00:46):
worried about you.
Frankly, you're a litigator.
It's stressful.
What are you doing, man?
What are you doing with yourlife?
This whole thing looked waybetter from a distance, or
you're fine, but you just wantto hear this anyway.
So you've got demanding clients, of course, complicated cases,
a lot of stuff to keep track of.
(01:06):
You might have difficultcolleagues, say, or difficult
clients.
You've got a lot of highbillable hour requirements,
maybe and, by the way, you needto drum up some new business and
you got to help the marketingteam.
You got to get out there andYou've got to get out there and
write.
You've got to get out there andspeak.
There's a lot to do.
(01:27):
You might be competing forcareer opportunities and money
and again, you've got theworkloads.
Anyway, you might be stressed,you might be frustrated, you
might be unfulfilled.
I promise this gets a lot morecheery.
(01:48):
Gary Miles is a success coach,author and former litigator.
He knows what you're goingthrough and he helps lawyers
struggling, like maybe you, tofind fulfillment and success in
a career that you know theyreally thought was going to be a
lot more fun.
Frankly, he's been described asinspiring, motivational, wise,
patient, thoughtful.
He's an exceptional listener.
(02:10):
They hear nothing about hisdance chops.
Gary coaches clients throughissues and disputes that are
holding them back.
He wants to help them achievetheir dreams.
So there you have it.
He's an experienced trialattorney, trained mediator.
He was managing partner ofHuseman Jones and Miles for
three decades.
He doesn't shy away fromdifficult situations and that's
(02:36):
borne out by his volunteer workas a marriage mentor and couples
counselor.
Good God, gary assures us thereis always a solution Always.
And I welcome back to theEmerging Litigation Podcast,
sarah Lord, considered by herfriends and colleagues as a
terribly competent ray ofsunshine.
Sarah is a former practicingattorney with a decade of
(02:59):
experience in data analytics.
She applies her experience inlaw firms and businesses to
address the cultural andpractical barriers to diversity
in law.
She applies her experience inlaw firms and businesses to
address the cultural andpractical barriers to diversity
in law.
She applies her talents tosupport the creation of value
through legal operations andputting clients first.
Most recently, she was managingdirector of Legal Metrics,
(03:21):
where she led a team of expertsfocused on providing the tools
to support data-drivendecision-making in legal
operations and closercollaboration between law firms
and clients through the use ofautomation and the
standardization of industrymetrics.
Sarah earned her JD from NewYork University School of Law.
And now here's Sarah Lord'sinterview with attorney and
(03:44):
coach Gary Miles, and because Ican't help myself, you'll have
to hear me there toward the end.
Hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Welcome to all you podcast people in podcast land
and welcome to Gary Miles, ourguest for today.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Thanks for having me.
Glad to be here, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So let's dive straight into the deep end, gary
.
We continue to read aboutattorneys who are struggling to
find joy and satisfaction intheir careers, leading to mental
health issues, addiction andeven suicide.
So what happens after swearingin that leads so many of us to
feel drowned and defeated?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well, I think it happens Two problems.
The one is we accept the firstjob we get.
We're the best job.
Best is defined by most money,most prestige.
But we haven't really taken astep back and thought what do I
want to do?
Where do I want to be?
Where do I want to work?
What kind of people do I wantto work with?
(04:45):
Do I want to have independenceand autonomy?
And so sometimes we take thisjob that we think it's going to
be just fantastic Can't believeI got that offer and then it's
not at all in alignment withwhat we were actually looking
for.
And so we're there three yearsin and we get frustrated.
Why did I pick that job?
It's not what I want and itcomes down to expectations.
(05:07):
We think when we get this jobafter working so hard in college
and law school and interviewingall our problems are going to
be solved, and they reallyaren't.
There ends up being more stress, more competition than maybe we
ever envisioned competitionthat maybe we ever envisioned?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Is the stress and competition in the legal
environment necessary?
I certainly have heard over thecourse of my career that the
pressure cooker environment, thebackstabbing, the competition,
is necessary to separate thewheat from the chaff.
What's your?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
perspective on that.
No, I don't think it'snecessary at all.
That's my opinion.
I have always looked at theworld as a world of plenty.
I don't think we need tocompete for the one or two
clients who are out there fighttooth and nail to get them.
I think we can all do well inlaw school.
We can all get good jobs.
We don't have to worry aboutbeating out the person sitting
(06:07):
at the desk next to us to getthat job.
So I don't think it's necessaryat all, and I think a lot of
other folks feel that way andthey leave that pressure cooker
and some start their own firms.
They create the culture theywant, culture they want.
They may create a firm wherework balance, life balance is
critical.
Folks are allowed to haveflexible hours and we can make
(06:34):
the law practice whatever wewant it to be, and I don't think
we have to buy into the factthat that's necessary.
I did litigation.
A certain amount of competitionis inherent in litigation,
because it's going to be meagainst you.
One of us is going to win, oneof us is going to litigation
because it's going to be meagainst you.
One of us is going to win, oneof us is going to lose.
You can't change that.
But we can do that in a waythat is professional and
courteous and doesn't need to beas competitive as it is that
(07:08):
are primary when it comes topracticing law that, if resolved
, could help litigatorsspecifically recapture the joy
in their careers.
Well, the one struggle so manylawyers deal with is a billable
hour model.
I think it creates so muchstress for so many.
It creates conflicts betweenthe law firm and the attorney.
I'm being told to bill morehours.
I don't have enough work tofill those hours, or my work's
(07:30):
only being measured by how manyhours I bill.
They don't really appreciatewho I am or the quality of my
work.
It creates conflicts betweenthe law firm and the client.
But for litigators specifically, the main thing is what our
mindset is.
I tried cases for 45 years andin the beginning I was so
obsessed with whether I wasgoing to win or lose, and
(07:50):
specifically whether I was goingto lose.
I expected to win, but Iworried so much about losing.
It just created this wholepressure throughout the case,
throughout preparing for it, andwe worry about what other
people will think about us.
What will my client think if Ilose?
What will Sarah think of me ifI lose?
What will other people aroundme?
How will they judge me?
And all those thoughts are sounproductive, create stress and
(08:14):
make us more likely to failrather than succeed.
The analogy I always give is Iplay golf.
I play golf a lot and if I'mheading over the water and I
think, what's it mean if I hitinto the wooder, how will that
affect me?
How will that affect my score?
I'm going to hit in the wooderbecause it's what I'm starting
to obsess about.
But if instead, I think I liketrying cases, I like taking
(08:37):
depositions, I'm going toprepare my opening, I'm going to
prepare my witnesses.
That's fun, I'm good at that.
So I encourage trial lawyers tothink about the process of what
you're doing, think about howyou're helping your client, but
stay in the present, stay in themoment, stay in the preparation
mode, stay in the being alawyer mode and stay out of the
future, because we don't knowwhat the future will be.
(08:59):
I had a good friend at my clubwho was a great tennis player
and I said what is one thingthat makes you so good?
He says I don't care if I winor lose, I don't care, I just go
out and play tennis.
And that's such a great thoughtto have.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's really difficult for litigators when
you're approaching these casesthat have a significant impact
on your career, have asignificant impact on your
client to be able to step backand separate your own identity
from the outcome.
(09:35):
The outcome Since a lot ofthese cases are very high stakes
even if they're not a lot ofmoney, even if they're not a big
public impact for the clients,they're huge, they're material,
(10:05):
they're important.
So if you are really looking tomake that mental separation for
your mental health purposes,for your ability to focus and be
successful individually as wellas professionally, are there
certain recommendations you havefor those litigators to sit
down and really identify theirprimary struggles and what
changes they may want toimplement?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Sure.
So in terms of their primarystruggles.
When I coach a client, I saywhat is it that causes you
stress?
What is it about your work,about someone you work with,
about the kind of emails you get, about the kind of
communications you get?
What is it that makes youanxious and stressed?
Is it worrying about the future?
And that's the first step isidentifying what is it in my
(10:46):
life that creates anxiety orstress.
And the next step is how do youfeel when you feel stressed?
What's the first thing thathappens?
Your heart races, you getsweaty, you get shorter breath.
What is it?
And then we can start unpackingthat.
So you're starting to feelstressed.
You got that email.
Okay, let's step back.
(11:07):
Is that something you did tocause that?
Is that the client being aclient?
Is that something you canchange?
And I encourage my clients toaccept those things in their
life.
They can't change.
I just coached someone who hasa very difficult client.
He will always be a difficultclient.
Instead of getting frustratedthat this difficult client is
difficult, just know he'sdifficult and get through it and
(11:30):
do your work.
And if you don't want torepresent him, don't represent
him.
That's your choice.
But if you're going torepresent him.
Don't get mad at him for beingdifficult.
So I think a lot of it comesdown to acceptance of those
things we can't change, beingmindful of how we're feeling,
and the one thing we have powerover is our thoughts.
You know, if I'm kicking fieldgoals for the Ravens and I'm
(11:52):
Justin Tucker and I got a 64yarder to win the game, if I'm
thinking the whole game rides onmy right foot, I'm probably not
going to do so well.
So he has trained his mind tojust focus on his technique.
The 64 yarder practice is thesame as the one with three
seconds left in the game and wecan do the same.
But it takes practice and ittakes work to really change what
(12:14):
we think about.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So if I'm struggling and I am identifying what I find
to be most stressful, what Ifind to be most anxiety inducing
, determine what I can change,what I can focus on and what
actions I need to take.
That impacts not just me and myclient.
(12:38):
It impacts the professionalsaround me.
So when it comes to addressingthis in the workplace, is there
still a stigma around that?
Are there certain practicesthat can help somebody maneuver
those relationships effectively?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I don't think there's any stigma about what you just
said.
If we change how we think Imean, if we're working in a law
firm with 100 lawyers and acertain number of partners and
some difficult staff that workunder us there are going to be
some frustrating people thereright, there have to be in the
world, because none of us areperfect and I've learned that
when I focus about what's wrongin someone around me which I
(13:18):
used to do all the time it's avery frustrating place.
But if, instead, I focus onwhat they're good at, it's a
better place.
And there's no stigma about howI think, about people changing
my thoughts, being a betterlistener, being more empathetic.
There's no stigma to that.
The only stigma that peoplefear is when they're really
(13:39):
struggling and need support, andsometimes people are afraid to
reach out for it because they'reafraid then I'll be judged as
being inadequate or not goodenough or a failure.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So if those are stressors for them, if they're
concerned about being able tohave those conversations at work
.
The more senior you get, themore control you have over your
environment.
But let's say you aren't at apartner level.
You're an associate.
You're a senior associate,maybe a junior partner, and you
(14:12):
are feeling anxiety and you needthe buy-in from the rest of
your team to make some changesto your, your workload, your
process, your approach.
How, how do you do that whenyou're afraid that even raising
the issue is going to put ablack mark on your name.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Well, the one suggestion I always have is find
someone outside the firm youcan talk to about it, so you
really process what's going onand you make the right choice.
That's what I found with theclients I work with, where I
mentor them, where they feelmost grateful they have someone
to talk to about thosecircumstances and they can help
to determine the appropriateresponse.
(14:55):
Appropriate response may beit's OK, it's no big deal.
I was obsessing about somethingthat's not that important, it
doesn't really impact me.
Or it may be this is really abig deal and I need to say
something.
Or it may be even if I saysomething, it won't go well.
I need to maybe look at adifferent environment in which
to work, but having someoneoutside the firm you can talk to
(15:18):
, because one of the biggestproblems all lawyers have is
this feeling of beingdisconnected.
We work in a law firm with alot of lawyers, but we're afraid
to really be open and genuinewith them because we don't want
to be judged.
We don't want the managingpartner to think we're not good
enough.
So the struggles we're havingwe often struggle in silence and
that just makes it so muchworse to struggle in silence.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And I certainly know many attorneys practicing in law
firm environments who feel likewhenever they try to make a
change, if they ever try toaddress some of their stressors
get a little bit of support.
They get told that they arefailing in their career, they're
(16:04):
not pulling their weight,they're not doing everything
that is expected of someone inthat position in that firm.
And the larger the firm is, themore prestigious it is, the
more that can feel overwhelmingin the sense that you're getting
it from all sides.
(16:26):
You know, in a smaller firm youcertainly can have the same
kind of pressure and the samekind of culture, because they're
frequently populated by peoplewho grew up in bigger
environments and brought thatculture with them.
But I think in a smaller firmthere's a feeling of you have a
(16:48):
few more options.
Right, you can leave a smallerfirm, go to another firm and
there's less of that shadow thatcomes with you.
But if you're at one of the topfirms in the country and you're
struggling and you're leavingthat environment, it can feel
like the whole world is nowaware that you aren't a good fit
(17:12):
, because you need a little moreattention, you need a little
more support, you need to carveout a little more space.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Do you have any views on that?
Well, I think there's a lot oftruth in what you said, except I
would.
If I was working with thatindividual, I'd work with them
to change their mindset.
Maybe you weren't a fit forthat big firm, but so what?
That's not who you are, and youmay not even want to be who the
person has to be to be happythere.
Maybe it's more important foryou to have some independence
and some autonomy and some timeto go out and play golf or
(17:49):
listen to music, whatever itmight be.
Maybe your family's moreimportant.
Maybe you want to choose yourown path, create your own
culture.
So that's okay.
I would encourage, I would workwith that person, help them see
.
It's okay that you aren't a fitthere and maybe that's what
it's supposed to be and there'snothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with that.
You know, I graduated number onein my law school class.
(18:11):
I clerked in federal court.
I never worked in big law.
I never worked in big law.
I wanted.
I'm not sure exactly what mythought process was at the time,
but I think I realized I'mprobably more independent and
more entrepreneurial and I wentinto a small firm.
I ended up owning and managingit for 30 years.
I think that's who I wassupposed to be.
I couldn't fit into someoneelse's box.
(18:33):
That isn't who I am and that'sokay, even though on the surface
, someone might say why didn'tyou go with the biggest firm in
Baltimore which I could havedone instead of going to the
small firm that not many peoplehave heard about?
I think that's where I wassupposed to be.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, and that's certainly difficult for
attorneys who have come out oflaw school and gone to a large
firm where the workload isoverwhelming and they're running
themselves into the ground.
I have found that a lot ofthose individuals can't even
find the time to think aboutwhat they want.
(19:08):
They were just chasing theprestige, chasing the paycheck
in order to pay off the studentloans, in order to check all of
those boxes.
And when you sit down with themand say, you know, in order to
check all of those boxes, andwhen you sit down with them and
say, well, what are you lookingfor, they don't really have an
(19:37):
answer because they haven't whatthey need.
And how they respond indifferent situations and where
they feel comfortable and all ofthese introspective is that a
word?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yes, introspective is a word.
Okay, good, all good words,you're right on.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
All right, awesome.
So it seems like that really iskey to the kind of job
satisfaction and well-being thatI know you've been focused on
in your role as a guide, as acoach.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I think you're right and I would say to that person,
if we ever spoke and he or shesaid I don't have the time to do
that, that's the problem,actually.
That points up with the problemis you don't think you have two
hours to find some time foryourself to sit outside on the
patio on a Saturday morning andreflect about what's important
(20:37):
to you and where you want to beSaturday morning and reflect
about what's important to youand where you want to be.
And that's something that hasto change, because there's no
more important client in ourpractice than ourselves.
And I always think, however youlook at it, that we should
carve out two hours a weekminimum and make ourselves our
best client, give ourselves theattention we give to our best
(20:57):
client, because we deserve it.
I mean, it's our life.
We're not owned by the firm.
It's our life and we'reresponsible for the choices we
make and we're never stuck.
We have choices.
We can be who we want to be andbe where we want to be, doing
what we want to do, andparticularly if we're in a big
firm, we obviously have a greatreputation, develops a good
(21:19):
skill set, did well in school.
We can create our own world andmake it exactly what we want it
to be If we're willing to takethat chance to do it.
Sometimes it's easier to justbe stuck and be a victim of that
, but it takes courage and somework to really figure out what
we want and then make it happen,and some work to really figure
out what we want and then makeit happen.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
So if I want to carve that two hours out but even the
thought of that is anxietyinducing Do you have any
recommendations on how to babystep my way into that Ways to do
it?
That might reduce some of theanxiety that I'm having just
thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, I encourage all my clients to literally plan
each day.
So plan on Monday what we'regoing to do and when we're going
to do it.
But when it comes to carvingtime out for ourselves, carve
two hours out on a weekend anddon't take calls, don't take
texts from the office.
If we're married, let ourspouse know.
You know I'm going to do somereflection and maybe the spouse
wants to be part of it.
But it also really helps tohave a third party help with
(22:30):
that, because sometimes wereally have a hard time figuring
ourselves out and one of theproblems I've seen is so many of
us limit our future based onour past experiences.
I remember when I was startingmy podcast.
I have my own podcast.
I remember starting and Ithought I could never do that.
You know I'm 66 years old.
Who starts a podcast at 66?
And I realized why my coach hadme say you can do that.
(22:53):
I mean you'd be great at it andI couldn't see myself for that.
And so often we can see inother people a future that often
they can't see in themselves,because our vision my vision for
you isn't constrained likeyours is by your past
experiences, and we often welook at our past.
We look at our failures, ourobstacles, our limitations I'm
(23:15):
not very good at, you know, I'mnot very good at public speaking
or whatever it might be and sowe can create a world and make
it whatever we want to be, andjust have a vision of what we
can be.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
That sounds lovely, and it sounds lovely to be
surrounded by people who arehelping you in that mission,
right?
So having a network ofindividuals who can relate to
what you're going through andcan help you think through
possibilities and help flag yourskills as well, like what you
(23:49):
are good at, because sometimeswe have our own skew that may
not be reflective of reality ormay no longer be reflective of
reality, and having that networksounds like it's a great way to
break through some of thosebarriers.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yes, it can be.
And we talk a lot aboutimposter syndrome and it's crazy
how many lawyers don't seethemselves as being the
successful, competent,intelligent, experienced lawyer
they really are.
They're the only ones who don'tbelieve in themselves.
And that's how having a goodfriend, a professional colleague
(24:33):
, a mentor, someone who canreally say look, you are that
good, look at what you've done.
And I find that with my clients, all the time they keep saying
I'm afraid I'm going to screw up.
I say, well, how many timeshave you screwed up in the past?
That was a problem.
They almost never have.
They're very, very good andvery successful.
But we're our own worst enemies.
I'm so hard on myself.
(24:58):
My wife drops something.
I said that's okay, We'll cleanit up.
I dropped something.
It's the end of the world.
What a clod.
How could you do that?
The way we talk to ourselves isso much harder than we talk to
our spouse, our child, our bestfriend, our dog.
It doesn't matter, we're sohard on ourselves.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, that is an excellent point.
That voice in our head can bepretty critical when it's
talking about our own failingsisn't the right word our own
areas of growth really to trackit and see where we are and how
we're doing, and give ourselveskudos as well.
(25:32):
How often do you stop and say Idid a really good job?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Right.
You know, we don't really dothat, and that's an important
thing, what you just said.
We should celebrate our wins,and that's something I have,
someone my clients do every day.
Write down, you know, often wego to bed and we're stressed,
we're worried about how thiswill work.
We're worried about that nextemail.
What's going to the clientgoing to say tomorrow, which we?
What's going to the clientgoing to say tomorrow, which we
have no power over, when we'retrying to go to sleep?
(25:56):
So I say, instead, celebrateyour victories.
What worked out well today?
Who did something nice to you?
Who did something helpful?
What good ruling did you get?
What work did you getaccomplished?
Write down a list of yourvictories for the day, the
things you did or the thingsthat were done for you.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
That were something you have to be grateful for, and
I'm a big fan of thinking aboutthings incrementally.
So when I'm thinking about twohours a week, if that feels
overwhelming, starting with ahalf hour and saying oh, the
world didn't end.
I wasn't around for a half hour, I turned my phone off.
That's terrifying.
And yet at the end of the halfhour everyone was still alive.
(26:37):
You know nothing, nothingdramatic happened that couldn't
have waited that.
And then kind of pulling thatand saying, okay, well, let's
try an hour and let's let's stepit up so that you're not
spending two hours that firsttime, just in in a panic, right,
you're, I've carved it out, butI can't do anything productive
(26:58):
because I'm too worried aboutwhat I'm missing, right?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
And you make a good point.
It doesn't have to be atwo-hour block in a week.
It could be 30 minutes fourtimes a day and really I think
it's a great practice to wake upin the morning and before we
rush to get dressed and get ourcoffee.
Some of us are late getting ourcoffee today, but and get our
coffee.
Some of us are late getting ourcoffee today, but before we get
our coffee.
You know why not spend 15minutes just in reflection?
You know, what do I want to getdone today?
(27:23):
Where am I?
What could I do better?
What am I grateful for?
Just a little bit of mentalreset before we start our day,
and maybe that means we get up15 minutes earlier.
But if it's at 6 30 in themorning, no one's going to miss
us, you know.
Or whatever time it is, justtake that time.
Go outside for a walk if theweather's good, or sit out on
the patio or in your kitchen oron your lounge chair and just be
(27:46):
quiet.
And we do get addicted to ourphones, like you made a joke,
but it's very hard to turn offour phone.
Turn it off, put it aside andjust be present with ourselves
enough.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Put it aside and just be present with ourselves.
I also just one of my practices.
I started a couple of yearsback, when it was clear that I'd
be working from home for awhile.
I bought an espresso machinefor my cappuccinos, decided that
that was more affordable thanmore affordable than you know
buying one, buying cappuccinosevery day.
So, and I have to say that the10 or 15 minutes it takes to
(28:25):
make the coffee, when I'm doingit myself and I'm steaming the
milk myself and I'm grinding thebeans myself it is it can feel
like a lot of time, but it'slike mental downtime.
It's a 15-minute window for meto just reflect on what's coming
(28:45):
.
The rest of the day I am makingthe coffee effectively on
autopilot and I can let my mindsettle and prepare for what's
coming in the next step.
So I feel like sometimes it'snot just about setting aside
time to stop and think.
It's about building extra timeinto some of your daily tasks.
(29:09):
Don't rush through everythingin order to get to the office as
soon as possible to do all ofthe tasks that are that are on
your backlog, cause there willalways be a backlog, there will
always be something else to do,there will always be more and
instead building in that littlebit of luxury for whatever that
(29:29):
is for you to get, that, thatmental break throughout your day
.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
And if I would add to that, you were kind of talking
about your morning routine, andso was I, and that's so
important.
But during the day is importanttoo.
Analogizing to sports.
If I'm running a marathon, Idon't train for a marathon by
running a marathon seven days ina row before that, because my
body would break down and I'd beburned out.
If I'm trying a case for nextweek, if I spend the first seven
(29:58):
or eight days before it working12 hours a day on that case,
I'm going to be burned out, Iwon't be sharp, I won't be on my
best game and we take a timeoutin a basketball game so the
players can have a break and weneed to take a timeout during
our day.
I have found folks are so muchmore productive when they
(30:19):
actually take time off duringthe day and you say well, how
could that be?
I lost 45 minutes taking offthose three 15-minute breaks.
You will be more productive,you will get more done.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
So, Tom, what do you have to add to this conversation
?
I know you have thoughts.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I couldn't help but think Think of the tie into
Buddhism.
I have to think you have someinfluence from that, gary.
I don't know, but the wholething about dwelling on the past
and Buddhism, it's like thepast has to take care of itself.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
And then if you're dwelling in the future, you're
catastrophizing, you're worrying.
It's not terribly productive.
That's not to say you don'tlearn from the past, you don't
plan for the future, but you'retalking about being in the
moment.
I going through some stressmyself.
When I was starting my businessand there was all this calamity
, I finally had to put somethingon my desk that said what can
(31:12):
you do right now?
And then you talked about the,about spending the time
reflecting on yourself, yourcareer.
What kind of questions arepeople asking themselves in
those kind of moments that youwould recommend?
What's that self-conversationlike?
Speaker 3 (31:30):
What are my most important values?
What is it that is mostimportant to me in my life?
What can I do as a lawyer thatI would really, really enjoy
doing?
What would light my fire?
What would I have fun doing?
What does that look like?
Is it big firm, small firm, myown firm, government, working
for some public interest group?
(31:51):
What does that look like?
Where do I physically want tobe?
Do I want to be in a city, atown, virtual?
What kind of people do I wantto work with?
What kind of clients do I wantto represent?
What kind of law do I find funand invigorating instead of
boring and mundane?
Those are the kinds ofquestions that I help my clients
(32:12):
walk through to really chartwhat they want their path to be.
And maybe they end up saying I'mexactly where I'm supposed to
be.
I just need to change the way Ilook at it.
I need to stop making myself avictim.
Or they may say this isn't whatI want at all.
I've been trying to put thisround peg in the square hole and
it doesn't work.
I don't fit here, that's okay.
(32:34):
That's okay.
Don't worry about being judgedby other people.
They think it doesn't matter.
What matters is if we're happy,fulfilled and satisfied.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, that mindset changes and I know you're not
saying it's easy, because it canbe a lifetime of thinking one
way that, oh, I'm a failure, Ican't do this, I can't do this,
I can't do that.
It occurred to me one day.
My sister-in-law is a socialworker, counselor, and she was
talking to me about affirmationsand me I just think my default
(33:07):
is oh, that's ridiculous, thoseare silly.
And then it occurred to me it'slike well, certainly, telling
myself negative things aboutmyself works, so why might not
the reverse also work?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
Well, affirmations are a good process and we do
fill our mind with negativethoughts about ourselves.
So you're right, why not lookat ourselves as successful and
worth it and deserving?
But the other thing I encouragepeople to do is to write a
self-image of yourself.
As you see, you now Strengths,weaknesses.
Who are you as a lawyer, as aperson, as a family member?
(33:42):
And in the ideal, perfect world?
If you could have any image ofyourself you want, what is your
ideal self-image of yourself?
What does that look like?
And that's the goal where wetry to get to, and so often we
find we're actually a lot ofthose things already, but we
don't give ourselves credit forit, or we may find this is what
(34:05):
I see myself doing.
This isn't the ideal me to bedoing what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So thank you again, Gary.
I really appreciate you comingon.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed chatting withyou and Tom Really appreciate
you coming on.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
I really enjoyed chatting withyou and Tom and I thank you guys
for all you do to help make theworld of litigation a little
bit better, to help lawyers bemore informed and to have
resources that they can tap intoto answer some question or some
need of their own.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That concludes this episode of the Emerging
Litigation Podcast, a coproduction of HB Litigation,
critical Legal Content, vlexFast Case and our friends at
Lost Street Media.
I'm Tom Hagee, your host, whichwould explain why I'm talking.
Please feel free to reach outto me if you have ideas for a
future episode and don'thesitate to share this with
(34:55):
clients, colleagues, friends,animals you may have left at
home, teenagers you'veirresponsibly left unsupervised,
and certain classifications offruits and vegetables, and if
you feel so moved, please giveus a rating.
Those always help.
Thank you for listening.
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