June 6, 2024 • 32 mins
Ever wondered how your good intentions might unintentionally cause harm, especially in diverse and inclusive environments? Join us as we unpack this crucial topic with Dr. Margaret Barrow, a seasoned professor, author, and small business owner. Through her enlightening insights, we explore the delicate balance between intent and impact in communication and why it’s essential to be mindful of how our words and actions are received, irrespective of our good intentions.
We also navigate the complexities of workplace relationships and miscommunications. By diving into a real-life example of a contentious nine-month relationship with a colleague, we reveal how differing backgrounds and personalities can shape professional interactions. This discussion also touches on societal hierarchies and personal sensitivities, highlighting the importance of understanding these factors to improve workplace dynamics and foster better relationships.
Lastly, we delve into the art of handling difficult conversations with empathy and emotional intelligence. Learn why "calling in" rather than "calling out" can lead to more constructive dialogues and how maintaining integrity during conflicts can transform your communication approach. Dr. Barrow shares valuable strategies for emotional growth, emphasizing the role of empathy, compassion, and feedback in nurturing our interactions. Whether you're aiming to enhance your workplace communication or personal relationships, this episode offers rich insights and practical advice to elevate your emotional intelligence.
Show Notes:
Dr. Margaret Barrow,
Founder and CEO of It's Nola
IG, LI, and FB: @itsnolasnacks
www.itsnola.com
Want to know more about implicit bias? Choose from among several tests developed at Harvard University to uncover biases you may not even think you have.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
Drop a comment when you get your results and let us know what surprised you.
Want to learn how to build your EQ? Let's meet to see if working together is good fit.
* Calendar: https://calendly.com/jami-carlacio/virtual-coffee
* Email: jami@jamicarlacio.com (mailto:%20jami@jamicarlacio.com)
* Find out more about my coaching services: https://jamicarlacio.com
* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jami-carlacio/
* FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/jamicarlacioEQ
* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamicarlacio1/
* YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/jamicarlacio1
* TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jcarlacio
* Substack: https://substack.com/@eqmaven
* I'd appreciate your support the show by buying me a cup of coffee: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2167520/supporters/new
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the podcast Emotional
Intelligence your greatest assetand key to success.
I'm your host, dr JamieCarlaccio, coming to you from
the Greater New Haven,connecticut area, as a positive
intelligence, or PQ, coach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
(00:27):
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
you learn and grow.
Pq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
(00:48):
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of PQ.
And now here's the show.
And before we begin, I justwanted to give a shout out to
the Arthur Murray Dance Studioof Guilford, connecticut.
It's along Connecticutshoreline.
They're a new supporter and Ihave to say I was feeling kind
(01:09):
of blah and I needed to spice upmy social life.
So I said, heck, I'm takingdance lessons and I signed up
and it has been a game changerfor me.
Not only do I take privatelessons with a very patient and
upbeat and wonderful instructor,but I go to dance parties and I
have dance lessons every weekand I have met a ton of really
nice people people who aresingle, people who are coupled
(01:32):
so everyone comes of all ages.
It's been just amazing and ofcourse, there's been some
stepping on feet, of course, butnothing big and they're very
patient.
So, whether you are single orcoupled and you just want to get
out and move around, you cancome and learn from the best in
the business Tango, swing, waltz, foxtrot it's all there.
(01:54):
So check out their website atarthurmurrayguilfordcom or call
203-458-9000 and tell them Jamiesent you.
I'm Jamie and I am here with avery, very dear friend, Dr
Margaret Barrow, and today weare going to talk about impact
(02:14):
versus intent.
So first thing I want to do isintroduce Margaret to you.
Margaret and I have known eachother since 2013.
We used to teach together inManhattan at Borough of
Manhattan Community College,where she mentored me.
She was the associate chair ofthe department and I used to go
to her office with all of my SOPstories and Margaret would
(02:39):
share her experience and pet meup and pat me on the back and
send me on my way, and so wehave been friends ever since.
I no longer teach there.
As you might guess, I'm apodcaster now and I live in
Connecticut, but anyway,margaret is awesome.
So Margaret is.
Hold on there, sister.
I'm going to say a few wordsabout you.
(03:01):
Okay, she is Margaret.
So Margaret's been a professorfor I don't know for a long time
more than 20 years, almost 30.
Almost 30 years, oh my gosh.
And she is the author of a bookcalled Karen teaching a
complicated relationship.
And she is also the author ofan essay called sweetest Candy
(03:24):
Education for the Love ofTeachers and the Love of
Teachers in a book called Gumbofor the Soul Liberating Memoirs
and Stories to Inspire Femalesof Color.
And she co-authored an articlecalled Students' Attitudes on
Social Network Sites and theirActual Use for career management
, competences and professionalidentity development, and that
(03:47):
is incredibly mouthful.
And most of her writing andresearch is founded on the
ethics of care and teaching, andlet me tell you, she lives
those values.
She is probably one of the mostpopular teachers at the college
and clearly the most amazingone.
And in 2017, she created granolabites and I have had them and
(04:11):
they are awesome and for healthreasons and she focused on
creating a granola that was notfull of junk and, as you know,
if you read the back of apackage, it usually has stuff
that you can't pronounce andit's probably got high fructose
corn syrup in it or somethingterrible, but these are
completely natural ingredients.
So she brought these to thecollege to share with her
(04:34):
students and, of course, theyraved about them.
And then, in 2018, when she wasencouraged by them to sell them
, she started a company calledit's Nola and she is one of our
supporters of the show and herinformation will be in the show
notes and I guarantee you youwill love these things.
They are like little granolabites, they're round and they
(04:56):
come in lots of differentflavors, but it's a plant-based
snack and Margaret lives inBrooklyn, so that's where the
company is based.
And Margaret lives in Brooklyn,so that's where the company is
based.
And now what I really like aboutthis?
This is really important.
Margaret uses her profits.
You know she gives back to thecommunity, so she supports
mentoring relationships andinspiring community college
(05:17):
students to follow their dreams.
So it's NOLA was born out ofthat need to eat healthy and a
desire to make a difference.
And welcome, welcome, welcomeMargaret my dear friend, thank
you.
Thank you so much, jamie.
Yeah, so the topic has been onmy mind for years.
Actually, when I started doinga lot of anti-racism trainings
(05:40):
and I did some DEI work, I cameup against this.
Trainings and I did some DEIwork, I came up against this and
I have to say that, as a whiteperson, in interacting with
people in minoritized groups orpeople who identify and it
doesn't just have to be peopleof color, it can be anyone of
you know a person in the LGBTQcommunity or you know any other,
(06:00):
you know the disabilitycommunity or whatever and I
didn't understand that your goodintentions don't always matter
if the way that the thing yousaid or did landed on somebody
in a way that was harmful orhurtful, and this totally
relates to emotionalintelligence and positive
(06:21):
intelligence.
So, just for those of you whoare wondering well, what do you
mean by intent and impact?
It's a distinction that reallyhelps us maintain inclusive
environments, and intent is whatyou meant to say or what you
intended it to mean, and impactis how it landed or how it
affected the other person.
(06:41):
So, regardless of the intent,we have to recognize our
behaviors, our language, ouractions and how they affect
other people, and it's not justrecognizing it though, it's
really taking ownership of itand being accountable.
So, in terms of emotionalintelligence, this is about
self-awareness and understandinghow to navigate the world and
(07:06):
navigate complex relationships,because we do live in a world
where we are all connected andwe are very different whether
it's culturally, ethnically,nationally, religiously,
politically, it doesn't matterand so we want to just try to
(07:26):
think of ways to resolveconflict, and for me, what's
really important is trying tosee what's good in other people
too, because if we other peopleall the time, we're never going
to be self-aware, we're nevergoing to get to that place of
you know, we're actually.
We all bleed red blood, right,and we all have hurt feelings.
(07:47):
And one thing that I'll just saythis and then I'll ask you to
comment, margaret it's often thecase and this has happened to
me that when somebody takesoffense, maybe, or reacts in a
way that shows that that was ahurtful thing, that we say, well
, I didn't mean it that way, oryou're just being really
(08:10):
sensitive, or you know, I don'teven know, I don't know how come
, you didn't get that.
So we end up getting reallydefensive, and then it makes us
right and it makes the otherperson wrong.
And that has happened to memany times and I have.
I've been paying attention tothat and I had a workplace
(08:31):
situation where a person and Ididn't get along.
I actually mentioned this inthe first couple of podcasts
last year and we had a reallycontentious workplace
relationship for nine months,really contentious workplace
relationship for nine months,and it took me eight months to
realize that, even though Ihadn't quote unquote done
something the fact that I waswho I am and he was who he is
(08:54):
neither of us you know wereterrible people, but how I
affected him.
It didn't dawn on me that Iaffected him in the way I did,
and so basically what it meantwas I didn't see him.
I didn't see him and heexperienced me through a
particular filter his ownupbringing, his own, you know,
(09:18):
socioeconomic status.
His own color.
He's a person of color.
He's an older man, you know,kind of a little bit more
traditional, and I'm very nontraditional and obviously I'm
white.
So, it was a really goodlearning experience for me.
And the good news is I was ableto really repair that
(09:38):
relationship and that that madeit.
He, I know that made a hugedifference, so so that's so.
That's just for kickoffstarters.
Do you want to add your twocents or four cents?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, sometimes those relationships can't be repaired
.
And I had a situation at workwhere one of our colleagues said
to me first he walked over tome and he said oh, could you
(10:14):
proofread this for me?
And I said I said sure, noproblem.
And then we started talking andthen he made a flippant comment
like oh, you have an EDD.
And I said to him what is thatsupposed to mean?
And he's like no, no, no.
And I said to him what is thatsupposed to mean?
And he's like no, no, no.
And I said to him no, you, yousaid something.
I think you meant what you said.
And he said no, no, no, that'snot what I meant.
And I said you know, in thiscase I think that the intention
(10:40):
landed exactly the way you know,the impact was exactly what you
wanted it to be.
And I said to him you need tobe careful in a situation like
this, because sometimes thatlevel of toxicity that's
involved, sometimes with anintentional comment that's made,
(11:03):
and then you try to cover it upLike, oh, that's not what I
meant.
I said to him you know, let metake a step back for a second,
let me see, let me try tounderstand this.
Maybe it is me Right.
So let me think about it for aminute.
Did I receive that information?
Because throughout the years, myunderstanding of the EDD and
(11:29):
the PhD, you know, and thosekinds of intellectual arguments
have rested in a really negativespace inside of me and I said
I'm thinking about that.
But I think in this case I waslike I think in this case I'm
going to go with the impact thatI think that you meant and he
(11:52):
insisted that it was not so.
So I'm saying this to say it ispossible, it is absolutely
possible in this case, that hisintention, while he thought
perhaps maybe it was not the waythat I received it right,
Perhaps it wasn't, but we livein a world where this happens
(12:16):
this is a case that kind ofhighlights that I am so adamant
about him that his intention wasto have this kind of negative
impact.
But perhaps it wasn't, perhapsit really wasn't.
Perhaps what resonated with mewas all of those conversations,
(12:36):
those intellectual argumentsthat have been going on for
decades about the PhD and theEDD, that I was overly sensitive
about it, that I was overlysensitive about it.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So it sounds like there's two filters going on.
But just before we move onbecause that is a really
important thing is a lot ofpeople might not know what EDD
stands for.
And that's a doctorate ineducation.
Is that right?
That's right.
And then, of course, a PhD isdoctor of philosophy, which can
mean like a million things.
So what I like about the EDD isand I have the PhD is that you
(13:17):
specifically got your doctoratein the realm of education and my
doctorate is in rhetoric and Ijust happen to also focus on
teaching.
But a lot of people with PhDsdidn't really learn how to teach
, but there is still a seemslike there is a lot of people
with PhDs didn't really learnhow to teach, but there is still
a seems like there is ahierarchy of some sort.
So what I heard in that commentand I'm not sure who you're
talking about, but I probablyknow the person is the thing I
(13:43):
heard is it was a little bit ofa slam.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, that's what it did.
It felt like a slam, and, butover the years, I've really had
to think about it.
You know, was this I do.
I think as communicators, rightas people who talk to other
people, we do have aresponsibility to when we
receive an idea or words, so wedo have to think more mindfully
(14:12):
about okay, what am I bringingto this?
Am I understanding this in thisparticular way?
Because of and I know that wetalked about sensitivity, but
that's still important, right?
That's, acknowledging one'ssensitivity helps us, I think,
to understand whether thatimpact is coming from the person
(14:34):
who said it or from me.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Absolutely, and so it isn't just that I would say,
ouch, when you might've saidsomething.
It's that.
Where is is my filter?
What is my background, what aremy experiences?
And have I got some kind ofmaybe implicit hostility yeah,
(14:59):
toward a certain person based on, you know, the, the identity
group that they belong to?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
very true, or just in terms of like, especially if
you're at work and you you kindof get to know people over time
and so you hear certain things.
I mean, there was a, there wassomeone at work used to say
things like he I gave I think itwas a report about something at
the college, and so this personsaid, oh it's so.
(15:31):
You speak, the two of youeloquently, that we're both
women, minority women, and bothof us were livid.
We were livid and we let himknow.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
He said well, that wasn't my intention.
And we were just like are yousure you speak so eloquently?
Oh my gosh.
What I asked him was and I saidlet me.
I said this is important for meto understand your, the, your
(16:05):
intention.
Ok, I said why didn't you saythe same thing to the other
speakers who were not people ofcolor?
Yeah, and he was silent and Isaid it hurt.
Yeah, I said it hurts.
It's like you know, you mayhave thought that was a
(16:26):
wonderful thing to say.
You may maybe.
I said I don't know what'sgoing on in your mind.
I don't, I'm not going topretend that I do, but you do
have to understand that what yousaid was hurtful and it took
him days, but he did come to myoffice and he said I'm so sorry,
days, but he did come to myoffice and he said I'm so sorry,
(16:48):
that wasn't my intention, I amso sorry, that's definitely
worth a lot, even if it tookdays, at least.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It sounds like he had to process it, yes, and maybe
he had to speak to other peopleand get some perspective,
because it sounds like again,when I didn't mean it.
That way is defensive, it'slike over explaining, and I
learned about that.
You know, I was just actuallytalking to somebody a couple of
days ago.
I had talked to the wife Infact, I'll tell, I'll tell you
(17:17):
who this is and she said yeah,yeah, my husband and I agree.
This is good, but you shouldprobably talk to him, because
it's like a game of telephoneand what I said to him may not
be exactly what you want to sayto him.
And it just reminded me of howlanguage and communication are
(17:38):
triangulated there's always anintermediary, and so what I
think I said and what you heardand what was actually said might
be three different things, andso it's important the feedback
that you get from someone.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
For example, I had written that my daughter.
I said something to my daughteryesterday and she said, oh, is
that what you think?
And I said no.
And she said, well, that's howI received it.
And I said, well, that was notmy intention.
And then she said, well, canyou just say that you hear me?
And I said to her I do hear you.
And then I said to her is itsolely my responsibility or is
(18:31):
it our responsibility tounderstand each other?
I said you know I would never.
I said my intention is never toharm you or to say something to
make you feel you know in anyway that you are less than you
feel you know in any way thatyou are less than, or you know.
So I said she said, mom, Ialready know that, but it
(18:55):
doesn't mean that the wordsyou're using doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
And I said I hear you , I will do better.
And that is it I hear you and Isee you.
Yes, because we all want to beseen and heard.
We all want to be seen andheard and you just reminded me
of sometimes yes, it's alwaysthrough his feeling of, you know
, a lack of self-worth or a lackof self-confidence, and so I
(19:27):
might say you've missed a commahere, because you know mom's a
writer and so he's afraid toshow me his writing, and he's
like see, you just think it'sawful to say, no, I don't think
it's awful, I think it's awesome, but he hears it that way.
So I have to remember that how Ispeak to him is going to be
(19:48):
received in a certain way, andmy son is a brown skinned person
and so he also hears things.
In fact he's been, he's been,subject to a lot of racism at
his school.
His school 78% white and and hehas quote unquote friends that
say things like oh, go mow lawnsor go back to the border and
they think it's funny, it isincredibly hurtful.
(20:12):
I said to him one day I said,Hav, why don't you, you know, go
get a summer job, Maybe you canmow some lawns.
And he's like I will never mowa lawn.
And I'm like why I would mow alawn.
And then I found out why.
But the other thing I reallylike about you in particular is
you are an excellentcommunicator and you are able to
(20:34):
say ouch, or you are able tocall somebody on their stuff.
Not everyone does.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So what do you do about that?
Well, I don't think it's easy.
You know I don't think it'seasy.
You know I don't.
I try here's.
Here's what I think about whenI'm calling someone out.
I've been calling someone outto me sounds too like I'm trying
to harm them, so maybe notcalling someone out when I want
(21:01):
to bring attention to something.
So I always think about well,how, what kind of relationship
do I want to have after thisconversation?
Do I want a relationship afterthis conversation?
If I want a relationship, Ineed to be careful with my words
, and so that's so critical.
(21:23):
And when I'm teaching, I talk tomy students who are having
problems at home and I'll say tothem what kind of relationship
do you want to have with yourmom?
I said you're angry with her,she's angry with you.
What kind of relationship doyou want?
I said that will dictate thewords you choose to use when you
have a conversation with yourmom.
(21:44):
And I said if you don't want tohave a relationship with
someone, then you know, I guessyou go for it.
I don't know.
I said, even then you stillhave to think about.
Well, what kind of what doesthat say about your own
self-worth and integrity.
Yeah, you know.
So it's not just attack someoneif you don't want to have a
relationship with them becauseyou don't want someone to change
(22:06):
who you are, to change intosomething that you're not, or
for you to call you outside ofyourself, which is horrible.
It's a horrible, horribleexperience for someone to give
someone that kind of power.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I'm going to go back tothe calling out thing.
I think what I should have saidis calling in, because calling
in means I want to bring youinto this conversation.
I don't want to shame you.
I'm not here again to createmore friction than maybe already
exists, but I would like to sayouch.
(22:44):
And and that's why the podcastcover has the word out it took
me like half a day to design thedarn thing because I just had
this image in my mind.
So there's an arrow with aheart and there's like one thing
with the thought bubble sayingsomething that he or she thinks
is innocuous, and the otherperson is like, ow, that really
hurt.
And I think ouch is one ofthose words that instead of well
(23:10):
, you big jerk I can't believeyou just said that it's ouch.
That makes it a little biteasier for maybe somebody to say
oh gosh, I didn't even realizethat.
I said that in that way andthank you for telling me, is a
better, a better way of handlingit, like the guy that
apologized to you the other day,you know three days later.
(23:31):
Whatever it's better to say, Ididn't realize that what I said
impacted you that way.
And the other thing, whichtakes a lot of courage and a lot
of emotional intelligence andpositive intelligence, is to say
how could I have done better orhow could I have said this
another way that wouldn't offendyou, right?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And that's not always .
I mean doing that kind ofmetacognitive thinking.
You know where you're trying tofigure out.
You know what should I say, howshould I say it?
And getting that advice fromthe person you've offended is
sometimes not easy.
Not easy, you know, because thenI think sometimes our egos get
(24:14):
in the way and then we can'treally have the kind of
conversation that we want, thekind of vulnerable conversations
that we need to have in orderto do better.
And so then we get stuck in arut and we continue to make
those mistakes, because we haveexcuses for why someone might be
(24:34):
impacted a certain way based onwhat we've said to them.
Oh, they're too sensitive, oh,you know they're too.
It's always their fault, Alwaysright.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Always making the other person wrong makes you
feel superior and right, savingface and I love that you talked
about vulnerability because itdoes.
You have to basically take offthat outer skin and expose your
you know, your, maybe yourignorance about something you
know because it's not in your,it's not in your realm of
(25:06):
experience.
You know, if if I make anoffhand, you know I grew up in a
household with fairlyinsensitive parents who used a
lot of racial slurs and usedother kinds of negative language
toward other groups of people,whether it was people with
(25:27):
different abilities or peoplewith different gender identities
, and so I learned those wordsand it wasn't until I got older
that I learned those aren't.
That's not how you talk aboutpeople.
That's not how you addresspeople.
That's not how you.
You know you don't pigeonholepeople with these stereotypes in
that language.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Oh, right, right.
Yeah, it's funny because I hada student many years ago.
My brother was visiting fromCalifornia, so he was in the
classroom when this happened,and so one of my students said
she wanted to share anexperience that she had with
another professor.
And she, because she didn'tunderstand why the professor was
(26:09):
upset with her.
And I said well, what happened?
And she said well, um, myprofessor, who teaches speech,
is Asian, and so she asked us toraise our hand if we had any
questions.
And so I raised my hand and Isaid to her where did she learn
how to speak English?
And the professor said to herI'm not answering that question,
(26:31):
I'm very offended by what youjust asked me.
And so the student asked herwell, what did I say?
That was wrong?
And she said you know, you needsome time to think about it,
I'm not going to answer it.
So she asked me well, what didI do wrong?
And you know I'm not going toanswer it.
So she asked me well, what?
What did I do wrong?
And you know, we had adiscussion in class about it and
we talked about how she had shehad, by asking someone who
(26:55):
looks a particular way, you know, making a comment about their,
their ability to speak English.
What you have done is you've.
It's offensive because of theassumption that comes with it.
You know the racist assumptionthat comes with it and I said
can you imagine someone sayingthat to you?
(27:16):
You're a Black woman andsomeone says to you oh you speak
English pretty well.
How do you feel about that?
It assumes that you don't.
You come from a group of peoplewho don't speak English and you
try to identify them in a veryracist way.
(27:39):
That's offensive to, should beoffensive to you, but it's
offensive to this person who hasa different identity.
I said you're trying tore-identify people based on your
limited understanding of them.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh, I love that Re-identify.
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, and I said to her I said that's painful, it's
very, very painful.
And we gave her other you knowother examples of this happening
, just like in New York.
You're walking down the streetand you see a bunch of people
who look a certain way and youdon't ask them for directions.
But you go to this personasking directions because you
(28:16):
assume that this is the personyou should talk to and not these
other people.
And I said you know, it's likewe have this.
I said it's this implicit biasthat you have and so it's really
understanding.
Well, where is that coming from?
And she said I have no ideathat.
I, I'm, I feel terrible.
And I said well, she's, you know, go talk to her, let her know
(28:38):
that you understand why she wasso upset with you.
And I, I said she'll appreciatethat you, that it bothered you
so much that you had adiscussion with other people.
And I said that's what we dowhen we really want to honor
other people, when we reallywant to treat other people with
dignity.
And I said so, then go andspeak to her she, she came back.
(29:01):
She's like oh my God, I wasjust so, she was so.
To her, she, she came back she'slike, oh my God, I was just so.
She was so happy that I had hadthis conversation and that had
bothered me so much and I said Isaid don't be afraid to ask.
You know, have those thoseconversations.
Sometimes you have to becauseshe was so upset with you she
couldn't speak to you Right, andthat's okay.
(29:22):
I said you should be okay withthat.
But seeking other people out tohelp you understand, I said
that's the hard work we have todo is to seek other people out
to help us, to give us anotherperspective, right, and we're
almost out of time.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But one of the things that I heard in there that you
didn't say but is, I think thatstops people from apologizing or
going back and making an amendis shame.
You know, we don't we all of asudden we've directed all of it
to us, so it's all about us, andif we feel ashamed, that's that
(29:59):
makes it less likely that we'regoing to come forward and say,
wow, I really screwed up.
Like this woman could havelearned English in California,
exactly Right, so she's fromCalifornia.
Then you know.
And that's like saying, whereare you from?
And maybe this person is Muslimand you know, wears a hijab and
(30:22):
has a slight accent, but thatperson was born in Nebraska,
yeah Right.
So not everybody is, you know,from somewhere else, and we do
make that assumption.
But one of the things that Ithink we all have to work harder
for and this is why emotionalintelligence is so important,
whether it's in education, theworkplace, at church, on the
(30:44):
street, right how can we startto see each other and practice
empathy and compassion and tryto be a little bit more outer
directed?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't be afraid to listen tofeedback.
Stop being defensive.
I think we really have to workon our egos if we want to have a
better relationship with others.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah right, I heard a great quote.
It was somebody quoted Rumi andit made so much sense.
It was actually in mymeditation this morning and I'm
going to paraphrase it because Idon't have Rumi in front of me.
But he said it because I don'thave Rumi in front of me.
But he said how will you everbe a polished?
(31:30):
gem if you don't have your edgesrubbed.
So the idea is right that weall have edges, we have growing
edges and if we don't have themrubbed, ie make mistakes and
have other people say, hey, waita minute, that hurt or that
wasn't nice, then we will neverbe that polished gem and I don't
think we'll ever be perfectlypolished, but at least we won't
(31:52):
have as rough of the edges,agreed.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yes, yeah.
So again, margaret is thefounder and CEO of it's NOLA.
They are awesome.
I'm going to include that inthe show notes and I will say
that, if you want to find outmore about how you can be a more
emotionally intelligent personand practice positive
(32:19):
intelligence, my information isalso in the show notes and this
is a good time to say thank you,margaret Barrow, and I'll see
you all at the PQ gym.
Thank you, bye.
Hello and welcome to the podcast Emotional
Intelligence your greatest assetand key to success.
I'm your host, dr JamieCarlaccio, coming to you from
the Greater New Haven,connecticut area, as a positive
intelligence, or PQ, coach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
(00:27):
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
you learn and grow.
Pq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
(00:48):
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of PQ.
And now here's the show.
And before we begin, I justwanted to give a shout out to
the Arthur Murray Dance Studioof Guilford, connecticut.
It's along Connecticutshoreline.
They're a new supporter and Ihave to say I was feeling kind
(01:09):
of blah and I needed to spice upmy social life.
So I said, heck, I'm takingdance lessons and I signed up
and it has been a game changerfor me.
Not only do I take privatelessons with a very patient and
upbeat and wonderful instructor,but I go to dance parties and I
have dance lessons every weekand I have met a ton of really
nice people people who aresingle, people who are coupled
(01:32):
so everyone comes of all ages.
It's been just amazing and ofcourse, there's been some
stepping on feet, of course, butnothing big and they're very
patient.
So, whether you are single orcoupled and you just want to get
out and move around, you cancome and learn from the best in
the business Tango, swing, waltz, foxtrot it's all there.
(01:54):
So check out their website atarthurmurrayguilfordcom or call
203-458-9000 and tell them Jamiesent you.
I'm Jamie and I am here with avery, very dear friend, Dr
Margaret Barrow, and today weare going to talk about impact
(02:14):
versus intent.
So first thing I want to do isintroduce Margaret to you.
Margaret and I have known eachother since 2013.
We used to teach together inManhattan at Borough of
Manhattan Community College,where she mentored me.
She was the associate chair ofthe department and I used to go
to her office with all of my SOPstories and Margaret would
(02:39):
share her experience and pet meup and pat me on the back and
send me on my way, and so wehave been friends ever since.
I no longer teach there.
As you might guess, I'm apodcaster now and I live in
Connecticut, but anyway,margaret is awesome.
So Margaret is.
Hold on there, sister.
I'm going to say a few wordsabout you.
(03:01):
Okay, she is Margaret.
So Margaret's been a professorfor I don't know for a long time
more than 20 years, almost 30.
Almost 30 years, oh my gosh.
And she is the author of a bookcalled Karen teaching a
complicated relationship.
And she is also the author ofan essay called sweetest Candy
(03:24):
Education for the Love ofTeachers and the Love of
Teachers in a book called Gumbofor the Soul Liberating Memoirs
and Stories to Inspire Femalesof Color.
And she co-authored an articlecalled Students' Attitudes on
Social Network Sites and theirActual Use for career management
, competences and professionalidentity development, and that
(03:47):
is incredibly mouthful.
And most of her writing andresearch is founded on the
ethics of care and teaching, andlet me tell you, she lives
those values.
She is probably one of the mostpopular teachers at the college
and clearly the most amazingone.
And in 2017, she created granolabites and I have had them and
(04:11):
they are awesome and for healthreasons and she focused on
creating a granola that was notfull of junk and, as you know,
if you read the back of apackage, it usually has stuff
that you can't pronounce andit's probably got high fructose
corn syrup in it or somethingterrible, but these are
completely natural ingredients.
So she brought these to thecollege to share with her
(04:34):
students and, of course, theyraved about them.
And then, in 2018, when she wasencouraged by them to sell them
, she started a company calledit's Nola and she is one of our
supporters of the show and herinformation will be in the show
notes and I guarantee you youwill love these things.
They are like little granolabites, they're round and they
(04:56):
come in lots of differentflavors, but it's a plant-based
snack and Margaret lives inBrooklyn, so that's where the
company is based.
And Margaret lives in Brooklyn,so that's where the company is
based.
And now what I really like aboutthis?
This is really important.
Margaret uses her profits.
You know she gives back to thecommunity, so she supports
mentoring relationships andinspiring community college
(05:17):
students to follow their dreams.
So it's NOLA was born out ofthat need to eat healthy and a
desire to make a difference.
And welcome, welcome, welcomeMargaret my dear friend, thank
you.
Thank you so much, jamie.
Yeah, so the topic has been onmy mind for years.
Actually, when I started doinga lot of anti-racism trainings
(05:40):
and I did some DEI work, I cameup against this.
Trainings and I did some DEIwork, I came up against this and
I have to say that, as a whiteperson, in interacting with
people in minoritized groups orpeople who identify and it
doesn't just have to be peopleof color, it can be anyone of
you know a person in the LGBTQcommunity or you know any other,
(06:00):
you know the disabilitycommunity or whatever and I
didn't understand that your goodintentions don't always matter
if the way that the thing yousaid or did landed on somebody
in a way that was harmful orhurtful, and this totally
relates to emotionalintelligence and positive
(06:21):
intelligence.
So, just for those of you whoare wondering well, what do you
mean by intent and impact?
It's a distinction that reallyhelps us maintain inclusive
environments, and intent is whatyou meant to say or what you
intended it to mean, and impactis how it landed or how it
affected the other person.
(06:41):
So, regardless of the intent,we have to recognize our
behaviors, our language, ouractions and how they affect
other people, and it's not justrecognizing it though, it's
really taking ownership of itand being accountable.
So, in terms of emotionalintelligence, this is about
self-awareness and understandinghow to navigate the world and
(07:06):
navigate complex relationships,because we do live in a world
where we are all connected andwe are very different whether
it's culturally, ethnically,nationally, religiously,
politically, it doesn't matterand so we want to just try to
(07:26):
think of ways to resolveconflict, and for me, what's
really important is trying tosee what's good in other people
too, because if we other peopleall the time, we're never going
to be self-aware, we're nevergoing to get to that place of
you know, we're actually.
We all bleed red blood, right,and we all have hurt feelings.
(07:47):
And one thing that I'll just saythis and then I'll ask you to
comment, margaret it's often thecase and this has happened to
me that when somebody takesoffense, maybe, or reacts in a
way that shows that that was ahurtful thing, that we say, well
, I didn't mean it that way, oryou're just being really
(08:10):
sensitive, or you know, I don'teven know, I don't know how come
, you didn't get that.
So we end up getting reallydefensive, and then it makes us
right and it makes the otherperson wrong.
And that has happened to memany times and I have.
I've been paying attention tothat and I had a workplace
(08:31):
situation where a person and Ididn't get along.
I actually mentioned this inthe first couple of podcasts
last year and we had a reallycontentious workplace
relationship for nine months,really contentious workplace
relationship for nine months,and it took me eight months to
realize that, even though Ihadn't quote unquote done
something the fact that I waswho I am and he was who he is
(08:54):
neither of us you know wereterrible people, but how I
affected him.
It didn't dawn on me that Iaffected him in the way I did,
and so basically what it meantwas I didn't see him.
I didn't see him and heexperienced me through a
particular filter his ownupbringing, his own, you know,
(09:18):
socioeconomic status.
His own color.
He's a person of color.
He's an older man, you know,kind of a little bit more
traditional, and I'm very nontraditional and obviously I'm
white.
So, it was a really goodlearning experience for me.
And the good news is I was ableto really repair that
(09:38):
relationship and that that madeit.
He, I know that made a hugedifference, so so that's so.
That's just for kickoffstarters.
Do you want to add your twocents or four cents?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, sometimes those relationships can't be repaired
.
And I had a situation at workwhere one of our colleagues said
to me first he walked over tome and he said oh, could you
(10:14):
proofread this for me?
And I said I said sure, noproblem.
And then we started talking andthen he made a flippant comment
like oh, you have an EDD.
And I said to him what is thatsupposed to mean?
And he's like no, no, no.
And I said to him what is thatsupposed to mean?
And he's like no, no, no.
And I said to him no, you, yousaid something.
I think you meant what you said.
And he said no, no, no, that'snot what I meant.
And I said you know, in thiscase I think that the intention
(10:40):
landed exactly the way you know,the impact was exactly what you
wanted it to be.
And I said to him you need tobe careful in a situation like
this, because sometimes thatlevel of toxicity that's
involved, sometimes with anintentional comment that's made,
(11:03):
and then you try to cover it upLike, oh, that's not what I
meant.
I said to him you know, let metake a step back for a second,
let me see, let me try tounderstand this.
Maybe it is me Right.
So let me think about it for aminute.
Did I receive that information?
Because throughout the years, myunderstanding of the EDD and
(11:29):
the PhD, you know, and thosekinds of intellectual arguments
have rested in a really negativespace inside of me and I said
I'm thinking about that.
But I think in this case I waslike I think in this case I'm
going to go with the impact thatI think that you meant and he
(11:52):
insisted that it was not so.
So I'm saying this to say it ispossible, it is absolutely
possible in this case, that hisintention, while he thought
perhaps maybe it was not the waythat I received it right,
Perhaps it wasn't, but we livein a world where this happens
(12:16):
this is a case that kind ofhighlights that I am so adamant
about him that his intention wasto have this kind of negative
impact.
But perhaps it wasn't, perhapsit really wasn't.
Perhaps what resonated with mewas all of those conversations,
(12:36):
those intellectual argumentsthat have been going on for
decades about the PhD and theEDD, that I was overly sensitive
about it, that I was overlysensitive about it.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So it sounds like there's two filters going on.
But just before we move onbecause that is a really
important thing is a lot ofpeople might not know what EDD
stands for.
And that's a doctorate ineducation.
Is that right?
That's right.
And then, of course, a PhD isdoctor of philosophy, which can
mean like a million things.
So what I like about the EDD isand I have the PhD is that you
(13:17):
specifically got your doctoratein the realm of education and my
doctorate is in rhetoric and Ijust happen to also focus on
teaching.
But a lot of people with PhDsdidn't really learn how to teach
, but there is still a seemslike there is a lot of people
with PhDs didn't really learnhow to teach, but there is still
a seems like there is ahierarchy of some sort.
So what I heard in that commentand I'm not sure who you're
talking about, but I probablyknow the person is the thing I
(13:43):
heard is it was a little bit ofa slam.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, that's what it did.
It felt like a slam, and, butover the years, I've really had
to think about it.
You know, was this I do.
I think as communicators, rightas people who talk to other
people, we do have aresponsibility to when we
receive an idea or words, so wedo have to think more mindfully
(14:12):
about okay, what am I bringingto this?
Am I understanding this in thisparticular way?
Because of and I know that wetalked about sensitivity, but
that's still important, right?
That's, acknowledging one'ssensitivity helps us, I think,
to understand whether thatimpact is coming from the person
(14:34):
who said it or from me.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Absolutely, and so it isn't just that I would say,
ouch, when you might've saidsomething.
It's that.
Where is is my filter?
What is my background, what aremy experiences?
And have I got some kind ofmaybe implicit hostility yeah,
(14:59):
toward a certain person based on, you know, the, the identity
group that they belong to?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
very true, or just in terms of like, especially if
you're at work and you you kindof get to know people over time
and so you hear certain things.
I mean, there was a, there wassomeone at work used to say
things like he I gave I think itwas a report about something at
the college, and so this personsaid, oh it's so.
(15:31):
You speak, the two of youeloquently, that we're both
women, minority women, and bothof us were livid.
We were livid and we let himknow.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
He said well, that wasn't my intention.
And we were just like are yousure you speak so eloquently?
Oh my gosh.
What I asked him was and I saidlet me.
I said this is important for meto understand your, the, your
(16:05):
intention.
Ok, I said why didn't you saythe same thing to the other
speakers who were not people ofcolor?
Yeah, and he was silent and Isaid it hurt.
Yeah, I said it hurts.
It's like you know, you mayhave thought that was a
(16:26):
wonderful thing to say.
You may maybe.
I said I don't know what'sgoing on in your mind.
I don't, I'm not going topretend that I do, but you do
have to understand that what yousaid was hurtful and it took
him days, but he did come to myoffice and he said I'm so sorry,
days, but he did come to myoffice and he said I'm so sorry,
(16:48):
that wasn't my intention, I amso sorry, that's definitely
worth a lot, even if it tookdays, at least.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It sounds like he had to process it, yes, and maybe
he had to speak to other peopleand get some perspective,
because it sounds like again,when I didn't mean it.
That way is defensive, it'slike over explaining, and I
learned about that.
You know, I was just actuallytalking to somebody a couple of
days ago.
I had talked to the wife Infact, I'll tell, I'll tell you
(17:17):
who this is and she said yeah,yeah, my husband and I agree.
This is good, but you shouldprobably talk to him, because
it's like a game of telephoneand what I said to him may not
be exactly what you want to sayto him.
And it just reminded me of howlanguage and communication are
(17:38):
triangulated there's always anintermediary, and so what I
think I said and what you heardand what was actually said might
be three different things, andso it's important the feedback
that you get from someone.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
For example, I had written that my daughter.
I said something to my daughteryesterday and she said, oh, is
that what you think?
And I said no.
And she said, well, that's howI received it.
And I said, well, that was notmy intention.
And then she said, well, canyou just say that you hear me?
And I said to her I do hear you.
And then I said to her is itsolely my responsibility or is
(18:31):
it our responsibility tounderstand each other?
I said you know I would never.
I said my intention is never toharm you or to say something to
make you feel you know in anyway that you are less than you
feel you know in any way thatyou are less than, or you know.
So I said she said, mom, Ialready know that, but it
(18:55):
doesn't mean that the wordsyou're using doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
And I said I hear you , I will do better.
And that is it I hear you and Isee you.
Yes, because we all want to beseen and heard.
We all want to be seen andheard and you just reminded me
of sometimes yes, it's alwaysthrough his feeling of, you know
, a lack of self-worth or a lackof self-confidence, and so I
(19:27):
might say you've missed a commahere, because you know mom's a
writer and so he's afraid toshow me his writing, and he's
like see, you just think it'sawful to say, no, I don't think
it's awful, I think it's awesome, but he hears it that way.
So I have to remember that how Ispeak to him is going to be
(19:48):
received in a certain way, andmy son is a brown skinned person
and so he also hears things.
In fact he's been, he's been,subject to a lot of racism at
his school.
His school 78% white and and hehas quote unquote friends that
say things like oh, go mow lawnsor go back to the border and
they think it's funny, it isincredibly hurtful.
(20:12):
I said to him one day I said,Hav, why don't you, you know, go
get a summer job, Maybe you canmow some lawns.
And he's like I will never mowa lawn.
And I'm like why I would mow alawn.
And then I found out why.
But the other thing I reallylike about you in particular is
you are an excellentcommunicator and you are able to
(20:34):
say ouch, or you are able tocall somebody on their stuff.
Not everyone does.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So what do you do about that?
Well, I don't think it's easy.
You know I don't think it'seasy.
You know I don't.
I try here's.
Here's what I think about whenI'm calling someone out.
I've been calling someone outto me sounds too like I'm trying
to harm them, so maybe notcalling someone out when I want
(21:01):
to bring attention to something.
So I always think about well,how, what kind of relationship
do I want to have after thisconversation?
Do I want a relationship afterthis conversation?
If I want a relationship, Ineed to be careful with my words
, and so that's so critical.
(21:23):
And when I'm teaching, I talk tomy students who are having
problems at home and I'll say tothem what kind of relationship
do you want to have with yourmom?
I said you're angry with her,she's angry with you.
What kind of relationship doyou want?
I said that will dictate thewords you choose to use when you
have a conversation with yourmom.
(21:44):
And I said if you don't want tohave a relationship with
someone, then you know, I guessyou go for it.
I don't know.
I said, even then you stillhave to think about.
Well, what kind of what doesthat say about your own
self-worth and integrity.
Yeah, you know.
So it's not just attack someoneif you don't want to have a
relationship with them becauseyou don't want someone to change
(22:06):
who you are, to change intosomething that you're not, or
for you to call you outside ofyourself, which is horrible.
It's a horrible, horribleexperience for someone to give
someone that kind of power.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I'm going to go back tothe calling out thing.
I think what I should have saidis calling in, because calling
in means I want to bring youinto this conversation.
I don't want to shame you.
I'm not here again to createmore friction than maybe already
exists, but I would like to sayouch.
(22:44):
And and that's why the podcastcover has the word out it took
me like half a day to design thedarn thing because I just had
this image in my mind.
So there's an arrow with aheart and there's like one thing
with the thought bubble sayingsomething that he or she thinks
is innocuous, and the otherperson is like, ow, that really
hurt.
And I think ouch is one ofthose words that instead of well
(23:10):
, you big jerk I can't believeyou just said that it's ouch.
That makes it a little biteasier for maybe somebody to say
oh gosh, I didn't even realizethat.
I said that in that way andthank you for telling me, is a
better, a better way of handlingit, like the guy that
apologized to you the other day,you know three days later.
(23:31):
Whatever it's better to say, Ididn't realize that what I said
impacted you that way.
And the other thing, whichtakes a lot of courage and a lot
of emotional intelligence andpositive intelligence, is to say
how could I have done better orhow could I have said this
another way that wouldn't offendyou, right?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And that's not always .
I mean doing that kind ofmetacognitive thinking.
You know where you're trying tofigure out.
You know what should I say, howshould I say it?
And getting that advice fromthe person you've offended is
sometimes not easy.
Not easy, you know, because thenI think sometimes our egos get
(24:14):
in the way and then we can'treally have the kind of
conversation that we want, thekind of vulnerable conversations
that we need to have in orderto do better.
And so then we get stuck in arut and we continue to make
those mistakes, because we haveexcuses for why someone might be
(24:34):
impacted a certain way based onwhat we've said to them.
Oh, they're too sensitive, oh,you know they're too.
It's always their fault, Alwaysright.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Always making the other person wrong makes you
feel superior and right, savingface and I love that you talked
about vulnerability because itdoes.
You have to basically take offthat outer skin and expose your
you know, your, maybe yourignorance about something you
know because it's not in your,it's not in your realm of
(25:06):
experience.
You know, if if I make anoffhand, you know I grew up in a
household with fairlyinsensitive parents who used a
lot of racial slurs and usedother kinds of negative language
toward other groups of people,whether it was people with
(25:27):
different abilities or peoplewith different gender identities
, and so I learned those wordsand it wasn't until I got older
that I learned those aren't.
That's not how you talk aboutpeople.
That's not how you addresspeople.
That's not how you.
You know you don't pigeonholepeople with these stereotypes in
that language.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Oh, right, right.
Yeah, it's funny because I hada student many years ago.
My brother was visiting fromCalifornia, so he was in the
classroom when this happened,and so one of my students said
she wanted to share anexperience that she had with
another professor.
And she, because she didn'tunderstand why the professor was
(26:09):
upset with her.
And I said well, what happened?
And she said well, um, myprofessor, who teaches speech,
is Asian, and so she asked us toraise our hand if we had any
questions.
And so I raised my hand and Isaid to her where did she learn
how to speak English?
And the professor said to herI'm not answering that question,
(26:31):
I'm very offended by what youjust asked me.
And so the student asked herwell, what did I say?
That was wrong?
And she said you know, you needsome time to think about it,
I'm not going to answer it.
So she asked me well, what didI do wrong?
And you know I'm not going toanswer it.
So she asked me well, what?
What did I do wrong?
And you know, we had adiscussion in class about it and
we talked about how she had shehad, by asking someone who
(26:55):
looks a particular way, you know, making a comment about their,
their ability to speak English.
What you have done is you've.
It's offensive because of theassumption that comes with it.
You know the racist assumptionthat comes with it and I said
can you imagine someone sayingthat to you?
(27:16):
You're a Black woman andsomeone says to you oh you speak
English pretty well.
How do you feel about that?
It assumes that you don't.
You come from a group of peoplewho don't speak English and you
try to identify them in a veryracist way.
(27:39):
That's offensive to, should beoffensive to you, but it's
offensive to this person who hasa different identity.
I said you're trying tore-identify people based on your
limited understanding of them.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh, I love that Re-identify.
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, and I said to her I said that's painful, it's
very, very painful.
And we gave her other you knowother examples of this happening
, just like in New York.
You're walking down the streetand you see a bunch of people
who look a certain way and youdon't ask them for directions.
But you go to this personasking directions because you
(28:16):
assume that this is the personyou should talk to and not these
other people.
And I said you know, it's likewe have this.
I said it's this implicit biasthat you have and so it's really
understanding.
Well, where is that coming from?
And she said I have no ideathat.
I, I'm, I feel terrible.
And I said well, she's, you know, go talk to her, let her know
(28:38):
that you understand why she wasso upset with you.
And I, I said she'll appreciatethat you, that it bothered you
so much that you had adiscussion with other people.
And I said that's what we dowhen we really want to honor
other people, when we reallywant to treat other people with
dignity.
And I said so, then go andspeak to her she, she came back.
(29:01):
She's like oh my God, I wasjust so, she was so.
To her, she, she came back she'slike, oh my God, I was just so.
She was so happy that I had hadthis conversation and that had
bothered me so much and I said Isaid don't be afraid to ask.
You know, have those thoseconversations.
Sometimes you have to becauseshe was so upset with you she
couldn't speak to you Right, andthat's okay.
(29:22):
I said you should be okay withthat.
But seeking other people out tohelp you understand, I said
that's the hard work we have todo is to seek other people out
to help us, to give us anotherperspective, right, and we're
almost out of time.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But one of the things that I heard in there that you
didn't say but is, I think thatstops people from apologizing or
going back and making an amendis shame.
You know, we don't we all of asudden we've directed all of it
to us, so it's all about us, andif we feel ashamed, that's that
(29:59):
makes it less likely that we'regoing to come forward and say,
wow, I really screwed up.
Like this woman could havelearned English in California,
exactly Right, so she's fromCalifornia.
Then you know.
And that's like saying, whereare you from?
And maybe this person is Muslimand you know, wears a hijab and
(30:22):
has a slight accent, but thatperson was born in Nebraska,
yeah Right.
So not everybody is, you know,from somewhere else, and we do
make that assumption.
But one of the things that Ithink we all have to work harder
for and this is why emotionalintelligence is so important,
whether it's in education, theworkplace, at church, on the
(30:44):
street, right how can we startto see each other and practice
empathy and compassion and tryto be a little bit more outer
directed?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't be afraid to listen tofeedback.
Stop being defensive.
I think we really have to workon our egos if we want to have a
better relationship with others.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah right, I heard a great quote.
It was somebody quoted Rumi andit made so much sense.
It was actually in mymeditation this morning and I'm
going to paraphrase it because Idon't have Rumi in front of me.
But he said it because I don'thave Rumi in front of me.
But he said how will you everbe a polished?
(31:30):
gem if you don't have your edgesrubbed.
So the idea is right that weall have edges, we have growing
edges and if we don't have themrubbed, ie make mistakes and
have other people say, hey, waita minute, that hurt or that
wasn't nice, then we will neverbe that polished gem and I don't
think we'll ever be perfectlypolished, but at least we won't
(31:52):
have as rough of the edges,agreed.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yes, yeah.
So again, margaret is thefounder and CEO of it's NOLA.
They are awesome.
I'm going to include that inthe show notes and I will say
that, if you want to find outmore about how you can be a more
emotionally intelligent personand practice positive
(32:19):
intelligence, my information isalso in the show notes and this
is a good time to say thank you,margaret Barrow, and I'll see
you all at the PQ gym.
Thank you, bye.
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