November 2, 2024 • 26 mins
Overthinking is a thief of joy, but what if you could reclaim your peace of mind? In a captivating conversation with Transformational Life and Positive Intelligence coach Bara Mann, we promise to guide you through strategies that can transform your mental landscape. Bara shares her inspiring journey from a mind caught in overthinking to a life of restful sleep and profound connections. Together, we dive deep into the nuances of emotional intelligence and mental fitness, illustrating how overthinking not only exacerbates stress and anxiety but also stands in the way of true joy.
Explore the hidden saboteurs in your mind that keep you trapped in a loop of unproductive rumination. We dissect the fine line between judgment and discernment, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging emotions to enhance decision-making. Using the Positive Intelligence saboteur test, we shed light on identifying and managing harmful thought patterns. Our discussion highlights how early experiences and survival instincts impact our thought processes, encouraging a shift from surviving to thriving. With insights into how these dynamics influence behaviors like people-pleasing, we pave the way for personal growth and positive change.
Discover the power of mindful breathing as a tool to combat overthinking and energize your 'sage' mind. We present mindful breathing as a universal remedy, focusing on deep breaths that center the mind and release unproductive thoughts. As we prepare to meet again at the PQ gym, we underscore the importance of enjoying life and fostering a mindset that embraces growth and learning. This episode is your invitation to shift your mindset and enhance your overall well-being, empowering you to thrive and not just survive.
Show Notes:
Bara Mann (she/they) is a transformational life and Positive Intelligence® (aka PQ®) mental fitness coach, speaker, and catalyst for positive change. With a background in chemical engineering and training in various healing modalities, Bara combines analytical thinking and intuitive wisdom to guide individuals toward lives filled with joy, confidence, and inner peace.
Bara has a special offer for our listeners! Access it at baraco.org/podcast
Music:
Zoe Wees: "Overthinking" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFPZypI8Pps
Mentioned: "Let That Sh*t Go" by Dessy Stefanou. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-j50BHc-qo
Want to learn how to build your EQ? Let's meet to see if working together is good fit.
* Calendar: https://calendly.com/jami-carlacio/virtual-coffee
* Email: jami@jamicarlacio.com (mailto:%20jami@jamicarlacio.com)
* Find out more about my coaching services: https://jamicarlacio.com
* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jami-carlacio/
* FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/jamicarlacioEQ
* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamicarlacio1/
* YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/jamicarlacio1
* TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jcarlacio
* Substack: https://substack.com/@eqmaven
* I'd appreciate your support the show by buying me a cup of coffee: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2167520/supporters/new
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jami Carlacio (00:00):
Just let it go.
You can't fix it, it's over.
Bara Mann (00:06):
Yeah, thinking about it is not going to fix it.
It already happened.
Thinking about it once whenyou've activated that sage mind,
and then you can analyze thesituation and say, okay, what
did I do well here that I wantto repeat?
What could I do better nexttime?
Is there something that I needto fix that makes sense.
There's a lot of value in thatThinking about it, that second,
(00:28):
third, 10th, 100th time no, letthat shit go.
Jami Carlacio (00:41):
Welcome to the podcast Emotional Intelligence,
your greatest asset and key tosuccess.
I'm your host, Dr.
Jami Carlacio, coming to youfrom the Greater New Haven,
Connecticut area, as anemotional intelligence or EQ
coach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
(01:05):
you learn and grow.
Eq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of EQ.
(01:25):
And now here's the show.
Hello everybody and welcomeback.
And today we are going to talkabout thinking and, more
specifically, overthinking.
And chances are, as my guesthas pointed out to me, ms
Barrowman, we all overthink andit is crazy making.
(01:48):
And so we're going to talkabout, like, what happens, why
we overthink, and then what aresome strategies for not
overthinking without completelyshutting your brain down and
becoming an automaton?
So first let me introduce myguest.
Welcome, barrow.
How are you?
Bara Mann (02:04):
Hello, I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having mehere Great.
Jami Carlacio (02:07):
And is it okay to tell them where you are right
now?
Bara Mann (02:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am based out of Californiausually, but I'm up in
Yellowknife, canada, in theNorthwest Territories.
Jami Carlacio (02:26):
Yeah, so she is up so far that the Northern
Lights or the Ouroboros come upevery night.
If you can stay up that late,because night comes late, isn't
that correct?
Bara Mann (02:31):
Yeah, pretty much.
Sometimes they're hidden by theclouds, but on many nights you
can see something out there.
Jami Carlacio (02:37):
I think that is absolutely amazing.
So Bera is a TransformationalLife and positive intelligence,
or PQ, coach like me.
That's how we met, and she isalso a speaker and a catalyst
for positive change, and with abackground get this a background
in chemical engineering andtraining in various healing
(02:59):
modalities.
Barrett combines analyticalthinking and intuitive wisdom to
guide individuals toward livesfilled with joy, confidence and
inner peace.
And tell me who doesn't wantjoy, inner peace and confidence?
So, yeah, so.
(03:22):
So I was overthinking the topictoday not really overthinking,
but it did remind me of how,when I ruminate which is what I
think of when I think ofoverthinking I tend to get full
of anxiety.
I tend to upset myself, and oneof the things that you and I
can talk about that is reallyimportant to me and why positive
(03:45):
intelligence has worked isrecognizing the 10 saboteurs in
my brain that constantly churnout thoughts that are not true.
They churn out thoughts thattell me I'm not good enough, or
that so-and-so doesn't like me,or that I said something stupid
at work, or that I have to tryeven harder because what I'm
(04:07):
doing isn't good enough.
I'm not good enough.
The list goes on, it's endless,and a lot of times it is just
our gears in our head are justin overdrive.
So why did you?
Why has overthinking been soimportant to you?
Let me start with that.
Bara Mann (04:27):
I think part of the reason it's so important to me
is that overthinking is just ahuge waste of time.
Say more.
I think my life will be so muchmore fun and I'd be able to do
so much more good if I didn'twaste all of this time just
turning around in my ownthoughts.
Not to mention that.
Not to mention I would sleepbetter, right, and if I slept
(04:50):
better then I could be theremore for the people that I loved
, I could do better work, etcetera.
So I think this used to besomething that held me back
quite a bit.
I would lay there awake atnight just thinking, thinking,
thinking, never getting anyresolution.
And since overcoming thisoverthinking problem and I say
(05:11):
overcoming might be a little bitof an exaggeration there's
definitely still someoverthinking there.
That happens, but it's so muchless than it used to be and I
catch it so much faster that mylife has just improved more than
I can really express.
I want to help other peoplehave that same experience.
Jami Carlacio (05:30):
Absolutely.
You know I was thinking as youwere saying that, and, yes, I'm
a thinker too.
I have a very analytical mindand you know, I was a professor.
I made a living on thinking.
I made a living on thinkingabout things.
I taught writing and literature, so I thought about language
all the time, but that'sdifferent than the kind of
(05:53):
rumination and stuff that goeson between our ears.
You know between 65, 70,000thoughts a day, 80% of them the
same from day to day.
So that is that's where maybepaying attention to our thinking
pays off, because, as you said,laying awake at night in your
(06:13):
bed and thinking about thingsyou should have said or should
have done, or things you'regoing to do or think you should
do tomorrow or whatever, or,heck, maybe six months ago,
something pops into your head.
So noticing it is one thing andthen saying wait a minute, can
I do anything about this?
Is this something I can change?
(06:33):
Is this something I need tomove on?
Is this something I need toapologize for?
Did you do something that youneed to really make an amend for
, or is this something that youjust you need to move on?
You need to pick up your toysand start moving along because
nothing is going to change.
Bara Mann (06:49):
Exactly.
And also have I already thoughtabout this Because something
that happens to right, if you'rethinking about it for the 10th
time what you should have saiddifferently or could have done
differently how often have youactually gotten a better answer
that 10th time that you'vereplayed that scenario than the
first time?
Jami Carlacio (07:07):
Right, absolutely .
I mean, there's one thing aboutreflection and discernment, and
one of the things that we learnin positive intelligence is the
distinction between judgmentand discernment.
So judgment is critical and itis deleterious.
It's not.
It's not necessarily good forus, but discernment is
Discernment.
Is making that decision.
(07:30):
Is this helpful, is it healthy?
Is it serving me?
Is it serving other people?
Is it adding to my quality oflife and my mental well-being?
Or, like you said, if it'ssomething I keep going back to,
did it change?
Did it get better?
Probably not.
Bara Mann (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and you bring up something really
important.
What you remind me of is a lotof people think, okay, well, I
know that it's bad sometimesthat I'm so analytical and that
I keep thinking things over andover, but then again, isn't it
actually really good that I amthis kind of person who, in the
PQ world, we probably call ithyper rational, that I have this
(08:15):
hyper rational part of mebecause it's smart and it helps
me to make good decisions, andpeople trust me that I know what
I'm talking about.
And so what we're saying hereis that, yeah, it's great for
you to be smart and for you tobe knowledgeable and you to be
able to think efficiently.
That's not your saboteur,that's not the hyper-rational
(08:36):
part of you.
That's one of your greateststrengths.
What your saboteur does is ittakes it too far, to the point
that it starts causing youproblems.
Jami Carlacio (08:45):
Yeah, and I want to also make a point here to say
about the hyper-rational.
The hyper-rational dismissesemotions.
It says no, no, no, emotionshave no place here.
But guess what?
We are emotional beings and soemotion is in there and we can
(09:05):
pretend it doesn't exist or wecan pretend it's not important.
But ultimately, even thinkingor discerning involves emotion.
So, whatever, whatever, whetherit's what to buy at the grocery
store or how to plan, you knownew traffic lights in a city or
you know something, there'sgoing to be emotion, there's
going to be values in there, andso it's recognizing where those
(09:29):
values are, where thoseemotions are, how they underpin
all of our decisions.
Bara Mann (09:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and I imagine that most of the
people watching or listening tothis have at some point had a
boss or someone in their lifewho just came to them with the
facts and without the emotions,and it never feels good to be on
the other side of that.
So when we let ourselves gointo that hyper rational zone,
that's what we're doing to theother people interacting with us
(09:56):
.
So we really want to pull itback, not just for us, but also
for the people around us.
Jami Carlacio (10:02):
Yeah, when you said pull it back, I immediately
thought of pulling back thecurtain.
Because, there are things thatare hidden, that if once you
expose something to the light,you can't unexpose it, and so
that's where we have thatopportunity to look at it and
say, oh okay, yeah, Ioverthought this, or I hadn't
(10:23):
even considered people'semotional investment in this, or
I hadn't considered what valuesare driving the way that we're
thinking about this.
And yesterday I was recording apodcast that'll drop in a week
or two Well, actually, it'lldrop before this one but we were
talking about how we need toactually examine our values.
(10:47):
We oftentimes are led byemotions and led by values, and
we hadn't really thought aboutwhat those values mean.
What does it look like inpractice?
And so when we get into thisoverthinking mode and our
saboteurs take over, chances arewe haven't actually taken the
(11:09):
time to explore one of the sagepowers, what's going on
underneath all of that?
So pulling back the curtain andexposing stuff to light is also
helpful.
Bara Mann (11:21):
Yeah, I think that's really helpful and a great
resource to help people pullback the curtain is that
saboteur test that anyone cantake online on the Positive
Intelligence website.
Jami Carlacio (11:34):
Right.
I'll put that in the show notes.
Yeah, Awesome.
Bara Mann (11:36):
Is that something that you guide people through
that process ever?
Jami Carlacio (11:40):
Absolutely.
The first thing we do is wetake the test and then we look
at the results and one of thethings that's really important
is this isn't an exercise tojudge you on your saboteurs or
shame you or blame you.
It's more just information.
(12:01):
Oh, I have been a peoplepleaser.
Information, oh, I have been apeople pleaser and this is how I
have been acting in theworkplace or acting at home or
acting around my relatives atfamily gatherings, and now I
understand why I say what I say,or do what I do, or don't do
what I don't do.
You know, even the avoidercomes out.
Or, you know, don't want anyconflict.
(12:22):
Let's just pretend everything'sokay, just say yes to everybody
.
So I tell people this is justinformation, it's inventory on a
shelf.
Let's just take inventory andlook at it and then find out how
it is affecting our daily livesand, again, our thinking.
Because even when you're apeople pleaser at least I've
(12:43):
found this to be true for meEven when you're a people
pleaser at least I've found thisto be true for me that doesn't
mean that I'm happy.
Or if I'm avoiding conflict, itdoesn't mean I'm happy.
I'm usually burying aresentment somewhere in there,
and then that resentment is whatgets me thinking at night.
Right, the anger comes out andthe frustration and the I wish
I'd said this, and what if I'ddone that?
(13:04):
And then that again it adds upto all that crazy making.
But when we can pull thecurtain back on the saboteurs
and understand exactly what'sdriving us, chances are we can
move into this more sage mode ofthinking, but not overthinking.
Bara Mann (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have a client who, when welooked at their saboteur
assessment, we're seeing thatthe pleaser is one of their top
saboteurs and they they knowthat.
They've been working on it andwhat we realized during that
session was that their pleaserthen triggers their victim
because they're saying yes toall this stuff that they don't
(13:46):
really want to be doing.
Part of the reason for sayingyes is this underlying feeling
that oh, maybe now I can savethe day, I can make things
better for other people.
But they never even get to havethat experience because then
they're just so resentful thatthey're doing everything and the
victim story comes up oh,everything always falls on me.
(14:07):
I always have to be the one todo this.
Yes, that does not feel good,right?
Jami Carlacio (14:13):
It doesn't feel good.
And, again, we can't make achange if we don't take
responsibility for our part inwhatever is going on in our
lives.
Something may be 80% not myfault, but 20% of it might be,
and so I even have to at leasttake responsibility for what's
mine.
And that, again, is wherediscernment comes in.
(14:34):
It's not that everything's myfault or everything's your fault
.
It's usually a combination ofthings, not to mention all of
the environmental factors thatare part of that context, for
whatever situation is going onthat dictated a behavior or a
thought or an action.
Bara Mann (14:53):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that taking that
assessment can help you takemore responsibility, because you
start to see the way thesethings are showing up in your
life.
For instance, one of my topsaboteurs is the controller, and
I didn't realize the way thatmy controller was coming out and
subtly manipulating people.
It's not like I wasintentionally manipulating
(15:14):
people for my own gain oranything like that, or even I
think manipulating people for myown gain.
What it really was was there'slike this voice, really strong
voice in my head.
That's like, well, you knowbest and if you do things this
way, other people will followand then it'll get better.
And if you can show them how todo these things, their lives
(15:34):
will be better too.
But once I became aware thatthat wasn't me, that was this
other part of me, thiscontroller, that was coming out,
and I was able to see the waythat was affecting other people
by even just reading.
No one likes to feel likethey're manipulated, and that's
how people feel when this comesout.
It puts that wedge in ourrelationships.
(15:56):
It gave me so much moreawareness and then I was able to
start taking responsibility forit and say, okay, wait a second
, this is my controller.
I'm sorry.
You can do things the way youwant to do things.
I'm just going to sit back nowand breathe.
Jami Carlacio (16:10):
Yeah, I had an accounting professor back in
college.
He said he was from Missouriand he said something that may
offend cat lovers.
But he said there's 40 ways toskin a cat and, and I'm sorry,
we don't skin cats, don't worryanybody.
Nope, no animals are harmed onthe making of this podcast.
But the idea is that I may havea great way of doing something,
(16:33):
but it isn't the only way to doit, and it may not be the only
effective way, or it may noteven be the most effective way,
even though in my mind it mightbe.
Bara Mann (16:44):
Right and sometimes it is the best way, I think, and
it still does not feel good atall to the other people and the
whole situation ultimately mightbe better if your controller
wasn't in play.
One that I saw one situationI've seen mine come out in is in
the corporate world.
Sometimes we do these workevents or these networking group
(17:05):
events where we'd go to thefood bank together and I would
be volunteering at the food bankand I would be just seeing how
inefficiently we were doingthings and how much better we
could do them, and it was likeI'd feel like this pressure on
my shoulders.
I'd be like going crazy, justwanting to tell them how we
could do things better.
And then sometimes I'd get theopportunity to make that
(17:28):
suggestion and I would think Iwas making that suggestion in a
really nice way.
This is going to benefit thepeople working there and all of
us.
But those people were going tokeep doing it the way they were
doing it anyways, but now theyjust felt judged and now they
just felt like they wereundervalued.
And it didn't improve thingsfor my coworkers either and it
didn't improve our interactions,because I was living with this
(17:51):
tension the whole time.
Jami Carlacio (17:53):
Right.
Bara Mann (17:54):
Exactly.
Jami Carlacio (17:55):
So that's why, sometimes for me it's it's if I,
if I, can get my saboteursunder control in a way that I'm
recognizing that they'reoperating.
Do some PQ reps you knowwhether it's just getting the
moment touch my fingertipstogether, stare at my hands or
the wall or the window, orbreathe Ah, that's my judge
(18:18):
going off in there or that's mycontroller.
And then I ask is this servingmy highest good?
Is it serving your highest goodright?
Is it important enough that Ineed to say something at all?
And another friend of mine saysdoes it need to be said?
Does it need to be said by meand does it need to be said now?
(18:40):
And those are great questionsto ask.
And when I ask those questions,then then chances are, if the
answer's no, no, it doesn't needto be said, it certainly
doesn't need to be said by meand it doesn't need to be said
now, then maybe it's somethingfor me to let go of and then
again to examine what it isabout me.
(19:01):
That's, that's kind of beingtriggered.
Bara Mann (19:05):
Right.
Jami Carlacio (19:05):
Usually right.
They're triggers, they'retrigger responses.
Bara Mann (19:10):
Yeah, and those are great questions to ask.
And I think something you saidleading up to that is really
important to highlight, which isdoing the PQ reps.
Chances are you might get avery different answer to those
questions if you've done the PQreps than if you haven't.
And that makes sense, right?
Because when you're in thatsaboteur mode, your survival
(19:30):
regions of your brain are active.
I mean, science has shown thiswhen you're surviving, you're
not making the best decisions,you're just surviving.
You can take even two minutesor even sometimes 10 seconds to
just pause and shift youractivation over to that sage
mind where your empathycircuitry and your right brain
(19:52):
lives and all that good stuff.
Then chances are you're goingto see, okay, okay, actually,
here's what's real for me.
Jami Carlacio (20:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
And I want to also step back amoment because I haven't said a
lot about this.
In the context of all thepodcast episodes, I talk a lot
about the saboteurs and we'vetalked about survival mechanisms
and we talk about the amygdalakind of stepping in.
You know, the sympatheticnervous system says whoa, danger
(20:23):
.
And our minds are wired to lookfor danger.
Our minds are wired to look forproblems, scan the environment
at all times.
So we have to step back and saywait a second, is this even a
dangerous situation?
Or is my nervous system justreacting to some stimuli that's
reminding my system, oh, thatwas a dangerous thing, or that's
(20:46):
just like that other thing thatwas dangerous.
And you know, with the saboteursagain, this isn't to cast
dispersions on anybody.
We all have a shadow side, weall have character flaws, but
there are survival instincts aswell and for many people they've
(21:07):
experienced early childhoodtrauma or even trauma later in
life and we had to take control,or we had to be hyper rational,
or we had to be hyper vigilant,or we had to be people pleasing
to stay alive or to stay safe.
But what happens is they'vejust gone so far on one side or
(21:30):
the other of the continuum, andso positive intelligence and
emotional intelligence kind ofbrings it back into the middle
and says, okay, let's, let'sattenuate these, let's, let's
mitigate some of these negativeeffects and put them into
perspective it's a paper tiger,sometimes not a real one.
Bara Mann (21:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's also importantto note that even people who
might be listening to this thatare like, well, I don't really
have childhood trauma, no matterwhat your experience has been,
this I was going to say it'slikely true for you, but I think
it's shown that it is true foreveryone.
I had a great childhood, veryloving family, yeah, and my I
(22:11):
lived in a small town.
It was really there weren't alot of kids, so if you didn't
fit in, that could mean you hadno friends.
So my way I was trying tosurvive by fitting in, because
we need friendship to survive,you know, and so that's
something that's carried with melater on is like this sense of
(22:34):
urgency to fit in that I haven'talways even known it was there
until I got that awareness lateron and I was able to see how it
played out in my life.
Jami Carlacio (22:43):
Yeah, absolutely You're right.
They're not always traumaresponses, but they are
responses to some environmentalstimuli, whether that
environment is right in the home, at school, at work, wherever.
But you're right, and I thinkas human beings we're wired to
survive and so we will figureout what it takes.
(23:05):
But sometimes what it took as akid in middle school isn't the
same as what it takes as anadult.
Right, there's a differencebetween Vera at 25 or 30 years
old and Vera at 13 years old.
Bara Mann (23:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I say like survival isgreat, but I don't want to just
survive.
Jami Carlacio (23:30):
I want to thrive, yeah, yeah, and that's the
whole point, right?
That's.
So going back to overthinking.
The idea is we can thrive andonce we pull the curtain away
from all of the things that aresabotaging us, we can say oh
wait, a minute, I got to letthat stuff go.
There's a great song I like.
It's called Let that Shit Go,and sometimes when I'm in a mode
(23:54):
where I need a little perk, Iplay that song.
Let that Shit Go, no need toapologize, just let that shit go
.
Let that shit go, no need toapologize, just let that shit go
.
And I'm going to put a link inthe in the show notes to that
song too, because I share itwith a lot of people.
It's like just time, right,just let it go.
You can't fix it, it's over.
Bara Mann (24:16):
Yeah, thinking about it is not going to fix it.
It already happened.
Thinking about it once whenyou've activated that sage mind,
and then you can analyze thesituation and say, okay, what
did I do well here that I wantto repeat?
What could I do better nexttime?
Is there something that I needto fix that makes sense.
There's a lot of value in thatThinking about it that second,
(24:38):
third, 10th, hundredth time.
No, let that shit go.
Jami Carlacio (24:43):
Right, right, absolutely.
That's probably what I shouldhave played, but, on that note,
I do have a great song that Iwant to share with people to
close out this session and beara stay on for a minute after the
song so we can say goodbye andI'm going to treat everybody to
Zoe.
There we have it.
(25:30):
It's crazy making, but itdoesn't have to be.
So Bara's information and allof the things we talked about,
like the songs or anything else,will be in the show notes.
And, bara, do you have anyparting thoughts for us?
Bara Mann (25:46):
I think funny that I use the word thinking right now
Just a reminder that if you areoverthinking or might be feeling
bad about this right now,everybody does it when you
notice it happening.
It's actually a really coolopportunity for you to take a
moment and re-energize your sage.
(26:06):
Just feel your breath and allowthat to carry you forward.
Jami Carlacio (26:11):
Yes, and take a deep breath all the way into the
belly, not just into the chestright.
Yes, and Barrett and I will seeyou all at the pq gym and until
next time, stop overthinking itand just enjoy your life.
We want you to thrive, not justsurvive.
(26:32):
Take care everybody.
Bye.
Just let it go.
You can't fix it, it's over.
Bara Mann (00:06):
Yeah, thinking about it is not going to fix it.
It already happened.
Thinking about it once whenyou've activated that sage mind,
and then you can analyze thesituation and say, okay, what
did I do well here that I wantto repeat?
What could I do better nexttime?
Is there something that I needto fix that makes sense.
There's a lot of value in thatThinking about it, that second,
(00:28):
third, 10th, 100th time no, letthat shit go.
Jami Carlacio (00:41):
Welcome to the podcast Emotional Intelligence,
your greatest asset and key tosuccess.
I'm your host, Dr.
Jami Carlacio, coming to youfrom the Greater New Haven,
Connecticut area, as anemotional intelligence or EQ
coach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
(01:05):
you learn and grow.
Eq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of EQ.
(01:25):
And now here's the show.
Hello everybody and welcomeback.
And today we are going to talkabout thinking and, more
specifically, overthinking.
And chances are, as my guesthas pointed out to me, ms
Barrowman, we all overthink andit is crazy making.
(01:48):
And so we're going to talkabout, like, what happens, why
we overthink, and then what aresome strategies for not
overthinking without completelyshutting your brain down and
becoming an automaton?
So first let me introduce myguest.
Welcome, barrow.
How are you?
Bara Mann (02:04):
Hello, I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having mehere Great.
Jami Carlacio (02:07):
And is it okay to tell them where you are right
now?
Bara Mann (02:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am based out of Californiausually, but I'm up in
Yellowknife, canada, in theNorthwest Territories.
Jami Carlacio (02:26):
Yeah, so she is up so far that the Northern
Lights or the Ouroboros come upevery night.
If you can stay up that late,because night comes late, isn't
that correct?
Bara Mann (02:31):
Yeah, pretty much.
Sometimes they're hidden by theclouds, but on many nights you
can see something out there.
Jami Carlacio (02:37):
I think that is absolutely amazing.
So Bera is a TransformationalLife and positive intelligence,
or PQ, coach like me.
That's how we met, and she isalso a speaker and a catalyst
for positive change, and with abackground get this a background
in chemical engineering andtraining in various healing
(02:59):
modalities.
Barrett combines analyticalthinking and intuitive wisdom to
guide individuals toward livesfilled with joy, confidence and
inner peace.
And tell me who doesn't wantjoy, inner peace and confidence?
So, yeah, so.
(03:22):
So I was overthinking the topictoday not really overthinking,
but it did remind me of how,when I ruminate which is what I
think of when I think ofoverthinking I tend to get full
of anxiety.
I tend to upset myself, and oneof the things that you and I
can talk about that is reallyimportant to me and why positive
(03:45):
intelligence has worked isrecognizing the 10 saboteurs in
my brain that constantly churnout thoughts that are not true.
They churn out thoughts thattell me I'm not good enough, or
that so-and-so doesn't like me,or that I said something stupid
at work, or that I have to tryeven harder because what I'm
(04:07):
doing isn't good enough.
I'm not good enough.
The list goes on, it's endless,and a lot of times it is just
our gears in our head are justin overdrive.
So why did you?
Why has overthinking been soimportant to you?
Let me start with that.
Bara Mann (04:27):
I think part of the reason it's so important to me
is that overthinking is just ahuge waste of time.
Say more.
I think my life will be so muchmore fun and I'd be able to do
so much more good if I didn'twaste all of this time just
turning around in my ownthoughts.
Not to mention that.
Not to mention I would sleepbetter, right, and if I slept
(04:50):
better then I could be theremore for the people that I loved
, I could do better work, etcetera.
So I think this used to besomething that held me back
quite a bit.
I would lay there awake atnight just thinking, thinking,
thinking, never getting anyresolution.
And since overcoming thisoverthinking problem and I say
(05:11):
overcoming might be a little bitof an exaggeration there's
definitely still someoverthinking there.
That happens, but it's so muchless than it used to be and I
catch it so much faster that mylife has just improved more than
I can really express.
I want to help other peoplehave that same experience.
Jami Carlacio (05:30):
Absolutely.
You know I was thinking as youwere saying that, and, yes, I'm
a thinker too.
I have a very analytical mindand you know, I was a professor.
I made a living on thinking.
I made a living on thinkingabout things.
I taught writing and literature, so I thought about language
all the time, but that'sdifferent than the kind of
(05:53):
rumination and stuff that goeson between our ears.
You know between 65, 70,000thoughts a day, 80% of them the
same from day to day.
So that is that's where maybepaying attention to our thinking
pays off, because, as you said,laying awake at night in your
(06:13):
bed and thinking about thingsyou should have said or should
have done, or things you'regoing to do or think you should
do tomorrow or whatever, or,heck, maybe six months ago,
something pops into your head.
So noticing it is one thing andthen saying wait a minute, can
I do anything about this?
Is this something I can change?
(06:33):
Is this something I need tomove on?
Is this something I need toapologize for?
Did you do something that youneed to really make an amend for
, or is this something that youjust you need to move on?
You need to pick up your toysand start moving along because
nothing is going to change.
Bara Mann (06:49):
Exactly.
And also have I already thoughtabout this Because something
that happens to right, if you'rethinking about it for the 10th
time what you should have saiddifferently or could have done
differently how often have youactually gotten a better answer
that 10th time that you'vereplayed that scenario than the
first time?
Jami Carlacio (07:07):
Right, absolutely .
I mean, there's one thing aboutreflection and discernment, and
one of the things that we learnin positive intelligence is the
distinction between judgmentand discernment.
So judgment is critical and itis deleterious.
It's not.
It's not necessarily good forus, but discernment is
Discernment.
Is making that decision.
(07:30):
Is this helpful, is it healthy?
Is it serving me?
Is it serving other people?
Is it adding to my quality oflife and my mental well-being?
Or, like you said, if it'ssomething I keep going back to,
did it change?
Did it get better?
Probably not.
Bara Mann (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely, and you bring up something really
important.
What you remind me of is a lotof people think, okay, well, I
know that it's bad sometimesthat I'm so analytical and that
I keep thinking things over andover, but then again, isn't it
actually really good that I amthis kind of person who, in the
PQ world, we probably call ithyper rational, that I have this
(08:15):
hyper rational part of mebecause it's smart and it helps
me to make good decisions, andpeople trust me that I know what
I'm talking about.
And so what we're saying hereis that, yeah, it's great for
you to be smart and for you tobe knowledgeable and you to be
able to think efficiently.
That's not your saboteur,that's not the hyper-rational
(08:36):
part of you.
That's one of your greateststrengths.
What your saboteur does is ittakes it too far, to the point
that it starts causing youproblems.
Jami Carlacio (08:45):
Yeah, and I want to also make a point here to say
about the hyper-rational.
The hyper-rational dismissesemotions.
It says no, no, no, emotionshave no place here.
But guess what?
We are emotional beings and soemotion is in there and we can
(09:05):
pretend it doesn't exist or wecan pretend it's not important.
But ultimately, even thinkingor discerning involves emotion.
So, whatever, whatever, whetherit's what to buy at the grocery
store or how to plan, you knownew traffic lights in a city or
you know something, there'sgoing to be emotion, there's
going to be values in there, andso it's recognizing where those
(09:29):
values are, where thoseemotions are, how they underpin
all of our decisions.
Bara Mann (09:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and I imagine that most of the
people watching or listening tothis have at some point had a
boss or someone in their lifewho just came to them with the
facts and without the emotions,and it never feels good to be on
the other side of that.
So when we let ourselves gointo that hyper rational zone,
that's what we're doing to theother people interacting with us
(09:56):
.
So we really want to pull itback, not just for us, but also
for the people around us.
Jami Carlacio (10:02):
Yeah, when you said pull it back, I immediately
thought of pulling back thecurtain.
Because, there are things thatare hidden, that if once you
expose something to the light,you can't unexpose it, and so
that's where we have thatopportunity to look at it and
say, oh okay, yeah, Ioverthought this, or I hadn't
(10:23):
even considered people'semotional investment in this, or
I hadn't considered what valuesare driving the way that we're
thinking about this.
And yesterday I was recording apodcast that'll drop in a week
or two Well, actually, it'lldrop before this one but we were
talking about how we need toactually examine our values.
(10:47):
We oftentimes are led byemotions and led by values, and
we hadn't really thought aboutwhat those values mean.
What does it look like inpractice?
And so when we get into thisoverthinking mode and our
saboteurs take over, chances arewe haven't actually taken the
(11:09):
time to explore one of the sagepowers, what's going on
underneath all of that?
So pulling back the curtain andexposing stuff to light is also
helpful.
Bara Mann (11:21):
Yeah, I think that's really helpful and a great
resource to help people pullback the curtain is that
saboteur test that anyone cantake online on the Positive
Intelligence website.
Jami Carlacio (11:34):
Right.
I'll put that in the show notes.
Yeah, Awesome.
Bara Mann (11:36):
Is that something that you guide people through
that process ever?
Jami Carlacio (11:40):
Absolutely.
The first thing we do is wetake the test and then we look
at the results and one of thethings that's really important
is this isn't an exercise tojudge you on your saboteurs or
shame you or blame you.
It's more just information.
(12:01):
Oh, I have been a peoplepleaser.
Information, oh, I have been apeople pleaser and this is how I
have been acting in theworkplace or acting at home or
acting around my relatives atfamily gatherings, and now I
understand why I say what I say,or do what I do, or don't do
what I don't do.
You know, even the avoidercomes out.
Or, you know, don't want anyconflict.
(12:22):
Let's just pretend everything'sokay, just say yes to everybody
.
So I tell people this is justinformation, it's inventory on a
shelf.
Let's just take inventory andlook at it and then find out how
it is affecting our daily livesand, again, our thinking.
Because even when you're apeople pleaser at least I've
(12:43):
found this to be true for meEven when you're a people
pleaser at least I've found thisto be true for me that doesn't
mean that I'm happy.
Or if I'm avoiding conflict, itdoesn't mean I'm happy.
I'm usually burying aresentment somewhere in there,
and then that resentment is whatgets me thinking at night.
Right, the anger comes out andthe frustration and the I wish
I'd said this, and what if I'ddone that?
(13:04):
And then that again it adds upto all that crazy making.
But when we can pull thecurtain back on the saboteurs
and understand exactly what'sdriving us, chances are we can
move into this more sage mode ofthinking, but not overthinking.
Bara Mann (13:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have a client who, when welooked at their saboteur
assessment, we're seeing thatthe pleaser is one of their top
saboteurs and they they knowthat.
They've been working on it andwhat we realized during that
session was that their pleaserthen triggers their victim
because they're saying yes toall this stuff that they don't
(13:46):
really want to be doing.
Part of the reason for sayingyes is this underlying feeling
that oh, maybe now I can savethe day, I can make things
better for other people.
But they never even get to havethat experience because then
they're just so resentful thatthey're doing everything and the
victim story comes up oh,everything always falls on me.
(14:07):
I always have to be the one todo this.
Yes, that does not feel good,right?
Jami Carlacio (14:13):
It doesn't feel good.
And, again, we can't make achange if we don't take
responsibility for our part inwhatever is going on in our
lives.
Something may be 80% not myfault, but 20% of it might be,
and so I even have to at leasttake responsibility for what's
mine.
And that, again, is wherediscernment comes in.
(14:34):
It's not that everything's myfault or everything's your fault
.
It's usually a combination ofthings, not to mention all of
the environmental factors thatare part of that context, for
whatever situation is going onthat dictated a behavior or a
thought or an action.
Bara Mann (14:53):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that taking that
assessment can help you takemore responsibility, because you
start to see the way thesethings are showing up in your
life.
For instance, one of my topsaboteurs is the controller, and
I didn't realize the way thatmy controller was coming out and
subtly manipulating people.
It's not like I wasintentionally manipulating
(15:14):
people for my own gain oranything like that, or even I
think manipulating people for myown gain.
What it really was was there'slike this voice, really strong
voice in my head.
That's like, well, you knowbest and if you do things this
way, other people will followand then it'll get better.
And if you can show them how todo these things, their lives
(15:34):
will be better too.
But once I became aware thatthat wasn't me, that was this
other part of me, thiscontroller, that was coming out,
and I was able to see the waythat was affecting other people
by even just reading.
No one likes to feel likethey're manipulated, and that's
how people feel when this comesout.
It puts that wedge in ourrelationships.
(15:56):
It gave me so much moreawareness and then I was able to
start taking responsibility forit and say, okay, wait a second
, this is my controller.
I'm sorry.
You can do things the way youwant to do things.
I'm just going to sit back nowand breathe.
Jami Carlacio (16:10):
Yeah, I had an accounting professor back in
college.
He said he was from Missouriand he said something that may
offend cat lovers.
But he said there's 40 ways toskin a cat and, and I'm sorry,
we don't skin cats, don't worryanybody.
Nope, no animals are harmed onthe making of this podcast.
But the idea is that I may havea great way of doing something,
(16:33):
but it isn't the only way to doit, and it may not be the only
effective way, or it may noteven be the most effective way,
even though in my mind it mightbe.
Bara Mann (16:44):
Right and sometimes it is the best way, I think, and
it still does not feel good atall to the other people and the
whole situation ultimately mightbe better if your controller
wasn't in play.
One that I saw one situationI've seen mine come out in is in
the corporate world.
Sometimes we do these workevents or these networking group
(17:05):
events where we'd go to thefood bank together and I would
be volunteering at the food bankand I would be just seeing how
inefficiently we were doingthings and how much better we
could do them, and it was likeI'd feel like this pressure on
my shoulders.
I'd be like going crazy, justwanting to tell them how we
could do things better.
And then sometimes I'd get theopportunity to make that
(17:28):
suggestion and I would think Iwas making that suggestion in a
really nice way.
This is going to benefit thepeople working there and all of
us.
But those people were going tokeep doing it the way they were
doing it anyways, but now theyjust felt judged and now they
just felt like they wereundervalued.
And it didn't improve thingsfor my coworkers either and it
didn't improve our interactions,because I was living with this
(17:51):
tension the whole time.
Jami Carlacio (17:53):
Right.
Bara Mann (17:54):
Exactly.
Jami Carlacio (17:55):
So that's why, sometimes for me it's it's if I,
if I, can get my saboteursunder control in a way that I'm
recognizing that they'reoperating.
Do some PQ reps you knowwhether it's just getting the
moment touch my fingertipstogether, stare at my hands or
the wall or the window, orbreathe Ah, that's my judge
(18:18):
going off in there or that's mycontroller.
And then I ask is this servingmy highest good?
Is it serving your highest goodright?
Is it important enough that Ineed to say something at all?
And another friend of mine saysdoes it need to be said?
Does it need to be said by meand does it need to be said now?
(18:40):
And those are great questionsto ask.
And when I ask those questions,then then chances are, if the
answer's no, no, it doesn't needto be said, it certainly
doesn't need to be said by meand it doesn't need to be said
now, then maybe it's somethingfor me to let go of and then
again to examine what it isabout me.
(19:01):
That's, that's kind of beingtriggered.
Bara Mann (19:05):
Right.
Jami Carlacio (19:05):
Usually right.
They're triggers, they'retrigger responses.
Bara Mann (19:10):
Yeah, and those are great questions to ask.
And I think something you saidleading up to that is really
important to highlight, which isdoing the PQ reps.
Chances are you might get avery different answer to those
questions if you've done the PQreps than if you haven't.
And that makes sense, right?
Because when you're in thatsaboteur mode, your survival
(19:30):
regions of your brain are active.
I mean, science has shown thiswhen you're surviving, you're
not making the best decisions,you're just surviving.
You can take even two minutesor even sometimes 10 seconds to
just pause and shift youractivation over to that sage
mind where your empathycircuitry and your right brain
(19:52):
lives and all that good stuff.
Then chances are you're goingto see, okay, okay, actually,
here's what's real for me.
Jami Carlacio (20:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
And I want to also step back amoment because I haven't said a
lot about this.
In the context of all thepodcast episodes, I talk a lot
about the saboteurs and we'vetalked about survival mechanisms
and we talk about the amygdalakind of stepping in.
You know, the sympatheticnervous system says whoa, danger
(20:23):
.
And our minds are wired to lookfor danger.
Our minds are wired to look forproblems, scan the environment
at all times.
So we have to step back and saywait a second, is this even a
dangerous situation?
Or is my nervous system justreacting to some stimuli that's
reminding my system, oh, thatwas a dangerous thing, or that's
(20:46):
just like that other thing thatwas dangerous.
And you know, with the saboteursagain, this isn't to cast
dispersions on anybody.
We all have a shadow side, weall have character flaws, but
there are survival instincts aswell and for many people they've
(21:07):
experienced early childhoodtrauma or even trauma later in
life and we had to take control,or we had to be hyper rational,
or we had to be hyper vigilant,or we had to be people pleasing
to stay alive or to stay safe.
But what happens is they'vejust gone so far on one side or
(21:30):
the other of the continuum, andso positive intelligence and
emotional intelligence kind ofbrings it back into the middle
and says, okay, let's, let'sattenuate these, let's, let's
mitigate some of these negativeeffects and put them into
perspective it's a paper tiger,sometimes not a real one.
Bara Mann (21:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's also importantto note that even people who
might be listening to this thatare like, well, I don't really
have childhood trauma, no matterwhat your experience has been,
this I was going to say it'slikely true for you, but I think
it's shown that it is true foreveryone.
I had a great childhood, veryloving family, yeah, and my I
(22:11):
lived in a small town.
It was really there weren't alot of kids, so if you didn't
fit in, that could mean you hadno friends.
So my way I was trying tosurvive by fitting in, because
we need friendship to survive,you know, and so that's
something that's carried with melater on is like this sense of
(22:34):
urgency to fit in that I haven'talways even known it was there
until I got that awareness lateron and I was able to see how it
played out in my life.
Jami Carlacio (22:43):
Yeah, absolutely You're right.
They're not always traumaresponses, but they are
responses to some environmentalstimuli, whether that
environment is right in the home, at school, at work, wherever.
But you're right, and I thinkas human beings we're wired to
survive and so we will figureout what it takes.
(23:05):
But sometimes what it took as akid in middle school isn't the
same as what it takes as anadult.
Right, there's a differencebetween Vera at 25 or 30 years
old and Vera at 13 years old.
Bara Mann (23:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I say like survival isgreat, but I don't want to just
survive.
Jami Carlacio (23:30):
I want to thrive, yeah, yeah, and that's the
whole point, right?
That's.
So going back to overthinking.
The idea is we can thrive andonce we pull the curtain away
from all of the things that aresabotaging us, we can say oh
wait, a minute, I got to letthat stuff go.
There's a great song I like.
It's called Let that Shit Go,and sometimes when I'm in a mode
(23:54):
where I need a little perk, Iplay that song.
Let that Shit Go, no need toapologize, just let that shit go
.
Let that shit go, no need toapologize, just let that shit go
.
And I'm going to put a link inthe in the show notes to that
song too, because I share itwith a lot of people.
It's like just time, right,just let it go.
You can't fix it, it's over.
Bara Mann (24:16):
Yeah, thinking about it is not going to fix it.
It already happened.
Thinking about it once whenyou've activated that sage mind,
and then you can analyze thesituation and say, okay, what
did I do well here that I wantto repeat?
What could I do better nexttime?
Is there something that I needto fix that makes sense.
There's a lot of value in thatThinking about it that second,
(24:38):
third, 10th, hundredth time.
No, let that shit go.
Jami Carlacio (24:43):
Right, right, absolutely.
That's probably what I shouldhave played, but, on that note,
I do have a great song that Iwant to share with people to
close out this session and beara stay on for a minute after the
song so we can say goodbye andI'm going to treat everybody to
Zoe.
There we have it.
(25:30):
It's crazy making, but itdoesn't have to be.
So Bara's information and allof the things we talked about,
like the songs or anything else,will be in the show notes.
And, bara, do you have anyparting thoughts for us?
Bara Mann (25:46):
I think funny that I use the word thinking right now
Just a reminder that if you areoverthinking or might be feeling
bad about this right now,everybody does it when you
notice it happening.
It's actually a really coolopportunity for you to take a
moment and re-energize your sage.
(26:06):
Just feel your breath and allowthat to carry you forward.
Jami Carlacio (26:11):
Yes, and take a deep breath all the way into the
belly, not just into the chestright.
Yes, and Barrett and I will seeyou all at the pq gym and until
next time, stop overthinking itand just enjoy your life.
We want you to thrive, not justsurvive.
(26:32):
Take care everybody.
Bye.
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