January 27, 2025 • 43 mins
There is HOPE after addiction! Learn about the transformative journey of my guest Atticus Canham-Clyne, who bravely shares his path from addiction to recovery. Atticus opens up about the dark allure of heroin and crack cocaine, revealing how the fear of fentanyl's deadly grip became the catalyst for his recovery. His story isn't just about abstaining from substances; it's about reshaping responses to life's challenges through emotional intelligence and fostering meaningful relationships. In this inspiring podcast interview, Atticus recounts pivotal moments, like a near-fatal incident due to contaminated drug paraphernalia, which underscores the vital role of community and support systems in his recovery. He highlights the importance of choice and the hope found in recovery programs like the 12-step model, showing how these elements can lead to profound personal transformation. His experiences serve as a beacon of hope, illustrating that embracing life over addiction gives rise to a world brimming with possibilities. Join us as we discuss how practices like meditation, prayer, and gratitude can not only support recovery but enhance one's emotional and positive intelligence. Atticus's journey is a testament to the power of changing one's mindset to alter life outcomes. As we wrap up, we invite you to learn more about Atticus’s creative pursuits, including his novel-in-progress that is loosely based on his experiences, and we encourage you to seek the resources and support that are available when you or a loved one is ready to walk the path to recovery. You are not alone.
Notes
Atticus Canham-Clyne
Substack: https://mockingbirdreview.substack.com/
Responsible Statecraft: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/author/atticuscanhamclyne/
Music by The Cars, “Just What I Needed”
There is help and hope:
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration: SAMHSA: https://www.samhsa.gov/
National Drug Helpline: drughelpline.org or call 1-800-662-HELP (4357)
Substance Abuse and Addiction Hotline:
https://drughelpline.org/ or call 844-289-0879
Suicide and Crisis Lifeline: https://988lifeline.org/ or call 988
Want to learn how to build your EQ? Let's meet to see if working together is good fit.
* Calendar: https://calendly.com/jami-carlacio/virtual-coffee
* Email: jami@jamicarlacio.com (mailto:%20jami@jamicarlacio.com)
* Find out more about my coaching services: https://jamicarlacio.com
* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jami-carlacio/
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* Substack: https://substack.com/@eqmaven
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think initially what kept me sober was probably
fear.
Fear, you know, gave me alittle bit of the urgency and
immediacy that I needed.
Fear of dying, I mean heroinaddiction especially, is I've
had a lot of friends, you know,lost friends to it Fentanyl now
just so pervasive, I mean, it'seven deadlier than heroin, and
(00:20):
so I was very afraid of dyingand that's what I think kept me
sober at first and thenultimately, you know, kind of
going back to the identity pieceof it, I was able to start to
see, you know, that coreidentity, you know who I was
start to get after the urgencyof the fear, you know, has sort
(00:47):
of maybe calmed down a littlebit over the years.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome to the podcast Emotional Intelligence
your Greatest Asset and Key toSuccess.
I'm your host, dr JamieCarlaccio, coming to you from
the Greater New Haven,connecticut area, as an
emotional intelligence or EQcoach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
(01:22):
you learn and grow.
Eq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of EQ.
And now here's the show.
(01:43):
Can enjoy the benefits of EQ.
And now here's the show.
Hello everybody, this podcast isdedicated to addiction, and
this is a serious subject.
This is a life and deathsubject, and my guest and I
discuss some things that arevery sensitive, and so this is
your trigger warning If youthink this may trigger you into
(02:06):
using or into rememberingsomething very painful about
addiction.
Just wanted to let you knowthat we do get really honest and
real in this podcast episode.
So this is your trigger warning.
You may want to sit this oneout if you feel like it's
something that you are not sureyou're ready to handle and there
(02:28):
is help, and all of thatinformation will be in the show
notes.
Thanks, hello and welcomeeverybody, and it is good to be
back and I am excited because Ihave an awesome, awesome guest
today.
His name is Atticus Canem-Klein.
Yes, you can ask him how he gotthe name Atticus and you can
(02:51):
find out if it's from To Kill aMockingbird, atticus.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I'm excellent.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Good, good.
I asked Atticus to join ustoday because Atticus is in
recovery from addiction and Iwanted to take a moment to
really take some time out totalk about something really
serious, because when it comesto addiction, it is literally
life and death.
But before we get into ourconversation, let me just tell
(03:26):
you a few words about Atticus.
Atticus Canem-Klein is agrateful in his words,
recovering addict from New Haven, connecticut, and thankful for
every day that he can wake upsober and alive.
He's fortunate enough to helpothers in a way that he was
helped working on a novel thatis loosely inspired by events in
(04:09):
his hometown and his experiencewith addiction, and you can
read some of his work onSubstack and I will include all
of this in the show notes aswell as at the Quincy
Institute's online magazine,responsible Statecraft, which
has published a couple of hisarticles on foreign affairs.
So thank you.
(04:29):
You are kind of an eclecticblend, shall I say.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So tell us a little bit about your journey in
addiction and recovery and thenI'll kind of probably break in
and, you know, talk about howrecovery is possible when you
want it.
But also you know, it's notjust a matter of stopping the
(04:58):
drugs or the alcohol.
It is what you do with how yourespond to things in life.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, very true.
So yeah, a little, a little bitabout my personal journey.
I started, as many people do,started drugs and alcohol, you
know, getting high and drinkingat a pretty young age, and I was
(05:31):
introduced to heroin in my teen, my teenage years, and that
pretty much.
I was pretty much all downhillfrom there.
Heroin and crack cocaine, andso my life was all about drugs
(05:52):
for many years, from the time Iwas very young until my mid-20s.
I'm 29, now, almost 30.
But for a good chunk of my lifeit revolved entirely around
drugs and, um, I was prettymiserable, as you can maybe
(06:12):
imagine, because, um, it's not a, you know, it's not a way to
live.
It saps the you know, thevitality and joy out of life.
Um, drug addiction it's a, it'sa prison, um, but it's the type
of prison from which theredoesn't appear to be any escape
(06:33):
much of the time, unfortunately.
And so I was stuck in a placewhere I didn't want to continue
living like that.
But I couldn't imagine orvisualize an alternative type of
life and it took sort ofexternal events to force me to
(06:53):
kind of come to a place where Icould finally stop.
I tried a couple times when Iwas younger sort of
half-heartedly and at the behestof my family or you know that
kind of thing to stop doingdrugs.
But for whatever reason, I gotto a place where I was just
ready and I couldn't do it on myown, but I had this external
(07:17):
sort of push that ultimately gotme into recovery.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Okay, well, I will talk about what that is in a
moment, but I want to go back toa couple of things that you
said.
One of them is that you feltlike your life was miserable.
And you felt miserable andthere wasn't any joy involved in
your life.
But, as I understand it and itwas the same for me alcohol is
(07:45):
my drug of choice and I've beensober for a few 24.
But it was fun at first.
It was fun and I had.
You know, I went to parties andI fit in with lots of different
people and I wanted to fit in.
So part of my consumption hadto do with being social and
(08:06):
feeling like there was some kindof euphoria.
So did it start off as fun andthen become not fun?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Oh yeah, of course.
I mean, if it wasn't fun Idon't think we would do it.
I know in my, my experience Ithink was a little like yours in
that part of it was related tosocial dynamics a little bit.
But yeah, it was fun, it wasvery fun.
I remember thinking the firsttime I got high I just thought
(08:37):
the word like magic, this islike, you know, real life magic.
I just wish I could feel thisway all the time and that kind
of became my life's mission fromthat point on.
But yeah, it was fun, it waseuphoric and it gave me some
certain drugs alcohol, cocaine,xanax in particular made it
(08:58):
easier for me to be social and Ialways had, I think, as many
kids do.
I always kind of felt like I'ma little different from everyone
.
You know, like if I can do thisthen I'll be more like everyone
else, you know, like you know,made me, help me to be able to
socialize.
Of course, the paradoxparadoxically, it's like it
helps you fit in, but then italso, I don't know accentuates
(09:30):
the difference because you feelkind of like cool and, you know,
more interesting because I'mnot like these normal people.
You know I'm on drugs.
So it gives you a kind ofidentity.
You know as well, which I thinka lot of you know it's a big
thing for young people isdefining who you are in life,
and drugs kind of gave me bydefault that sort of identity.
But yeah definitely.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, it was fun at first, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So you said so many awesomethings that I want to pick up on
.
I still want to, I want to puton the on the shelf for a moment
this idea of prison, becausewhat came to?
my mind was a straight jacket,you know, like a small room with
no windows and you're just in astraight jacket in that know,
like a small room with nowindows, and you're just in a
straight jacket in that room andthere's no escape.
But before we go there, youknow, you said, you know, having
(10:13):
that feeling of, oh my gosh, Ifit in, I'm cool, this is fun.
And you know you said somethingalso that resonated with me
that that first time was soawesome.
You wanted it again and youwanted it again and you wanted
it again, yeah, yeah yeah butthen and then you got hooked,
(10:36):
and then it was like now I haveto have it yeah, and I think
that happened pretty fast for me.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I mean, I started just with alcohol and marijuana
but, um, even just there, Iturned pretty quickly to an
everyday thing.
I remember, um, actuallydrawing up a little schedule for
myself when I first started,like I'll do it on a, you know,
wednesday and friday andwhatever you know, and that
(11:06):
maybe went on for like a week ortwo and then it was pretty much
like I'm just gonna do thisevery day if I can afford it.
You know, um, yeah, but I, Imean the timeline, I don't know
exactly.
You know when it got, itstopped being fun and started
being, you know, a compulsion orwhatever you might want to call
it.
But, um, you know it, ithappens eventually by, uh, you
(11:29):
know, inevitably that's when itbecomes that kind of prison, I
think.
Yes, exactly, you knowinevitably that's when it
becomes that kind of prison, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, exactly, you know, I think about it as liquid
handcuffs or some kind ofhandcuff, you know if you need
alcohol, it's liquid.
If you need Xanax, it'sobviously not a liquid, although
I guess you could crush it, dosomething with it, with water
and drink it but handcuffs is isthe thing that keeps coming to
(11:55):
mind Because, as you pointed out, you know you tried a schedule
and then the schedule just wentright out the window.
Yeah, yeah, and I think a lotof people who suffer from
substance use addiction inwhatever form that takes, and it
also could be a processaddiction, like gambling or
pornography or shopping or sex.
(12:19):
We try to control it and wefind we can't and the brain has
decided I like what's happeninghere and I want it again.
And then, when the brain getsused to it, even when it's bad
for us, the addiction has done anumber on the brain to the
(12:40):
extent that the withdrawals areso bad that we have to have it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
You're right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I thinkthere are, you know a lot of
factors that I mean I thinkthere are you know a lot of
factors that keep you in thatsort of that state and that sort
of the you know, the basicneurochemical ones are very,
very strong, especially withsomething like with heroin, or
Xanax, benzodiazepines, becauseyou know, or alcohol, especially
(13:07):
, you know, physical withdrawalis very intense, intense and, um
, as a heroin addict, I mean itwas sort of like a search for
money to find, you know, drugsto stop the withdrawal, and then
, you know, then you just try tofigure out how to do it again
the next day.
Um, but yeah, I mean, and Ithink that that sort of the
(13:29):
neurochemical, you knowcompulsion is is entwined with
for me was, you know, uh, youknow, self-loathing and those
aspects of identity like how canI change?
This is who I am, you know, andit just keeps you in that,
those handcuffs, as it were.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I was thinking while youwere talking about that idea of
your identity you know who areyou, and a lot of times, I think
, people who have substance useaddiction forget who they are
Like.
(14:06):
There is this core self.
There's this core beautiful,wonderful self that was born
into this world.
And when you are in youraddiction, that's not who you
are.
No, that is just you under theinfluence of something.
But I hear a lot of peoplerefer very negatively to
(14:28):
themselves as addicts or aslosers or whatever.
Or I see, even in society, eventhough we know so much about
substance use addiction, westill hear the negative comments
and we still get the negativejudgments like you're an addict,
(14:49):
or there's something wrong withyou, or you're a moral failure.
An addict, or there's somethingwrong with you, or you're a
moral failure.
And when you layer all of thaton top of the person with the
addiction, how can you get outfrom under that?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, it's very difficult.
I mean, unfortunately, despiteyou know, the fact that I think
it's much more common today torecognize addiction as a disease
, there's obviously still, youknow, a stigma out there and all
these negative implicationsthat go along with the language
we use around addiction.
But, yeah, how do you get outof that?
(15:27):
I mean, obviously, in terms ofthe sort of moral model of it,
you know you're a moral failureor whatever.
Right, they would think it's anact of will and if you just
have a strong enough will thenyou can solve your problems that
way, you know, by yourself.
But unfortunately I haven'treally found that to be the case
(15:51):
.
Haven't really found that to bethe case.
I mean, I know people withpretty strong wills who have,
you know, been alcoholics andaddicts for a long time.
But so how do you get out fromunder that?
In my case, I got to a point of, I suppose, despair and I think
(16:12):
I was just waiting forsomething to happen, because I
didn't have the sort ofrequisite I don't know, you know
means within myself to push meover the edge into recovery.
But I was waiting for somethingto happen and, you know,
something did happen and, forwhatever reason, that was enough
for me.
And I think initially what keptme sober was probably fear.
(16:36):
Fear, you know, gave me alittle bit of the urgency and
immediacy that I needed.
Fear of dying, I mean heroinaddiction, especially as I've
had a lot of friends, you know,lost friends to it.
Fentanyl, now just so pervasive, I mean, it's even deadlier
than heroin, and so I was veryafraid of dying.
And that's what I think kept mesober at first.
(16:57):
And then ultimately, you know,kind of going back to the
identity piece of it, I was ableto start to see, you know, that
core identity, you know who Iwas, start to get at least a
vague idea of it, you know, andbuild a new life for myself.
And that sort of positive pushis what I think has kept me
(17:22):
sober after the urgency of thefear you know has sort of maybe
calmed down a little bit overthe years, yeah, but it's.
It's a tough question, I mean,and you know one that everybody
has to face in addiction is youknow how do you get out from
under it?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Right and you know.
Going back to the willpowerthing, you're right.
Once your brain is addicted toa substance and it wants it, it
needs it, it has to have it.
There's no amount of willpower.
You are a very smart person.
You're very accomplished.
I was a high functioningalcoholic and I had a good job
and I did a lot of things, but Icouldn't stop drinking and I
(18:02):
also tried to devise a scheduleand make little rules for myself
about what I would drink andwhat I wouldn't drink, and what
I would drink and what Iwouldn't drink.
And none of it worked.
Nothing worked.
And I had a deep spiritualbottom.
You know, I was physically notwell.
Most emotionally I wasn't well,and mentally it wasn't really
(18:25):
well.
And spiritually I feltspiritually bankrupt on a lot of
levels, like I didn't have arelationship.
I thought I had a relationshipwith God, but it was.
It wasn't the same relationshipI have today.
Today that relationship is deepand abiding and there's a lot
more going on.
But when I initially thought Ihad a relationship with the God
(18:50):
of my understanding, it was, youknow, foxhole prayers and you
know my life consisted of.
Please don't let me drink today,god.
On the way to the liquor store.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
You know, and it was and and so and.
So what happened for me was Ihad a complete surrender and I
did have medical issues and atfirst they didn't stop me.
But I know that you havesomething much more dramatic,
and I definitely want you totell our audience about that,
because that was one reason Iasked you to come on this
(19:25):
podcast, because this is somedeadly serious stuff, stuff, and
you are a testament to someonewho said, okay, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So, if you don't mind , sharing a little bit about how
you did get sober of course Imean, yeah, going back to the,
that moment of surrender and thefear of death I talked about,
um, I mean, like I said I was, Iwas a heroin addict, I was a
crack user, so I shot heroinevery day, several times a day,
(19:59):
and the event that really pushedme to get there, you know I had
overdosed before, you know, acouple of times over the years
and that, for whatever reason,wasn't enough, I'd seen friends
die and that you, whateverreason wasn't enough, um, I'd
seen friends die, and that, youknow, wasn't enough.
But, um, I got to a point whereI was just totally miserable
(20:22):
and what happened was I, uh, Iwas working at the time, despite
, you know, my addiction.
I managed to hold down a jobmost of the time over the years
and, um, I was working but I hadspent all my money, you know,
pretty early in the sort of paycycle we got paid every two
weeks I spent all my money andby the second week it was
usually a scramble to try, andyou know, scheme and make money.
(20:45):
But so I spent all my money andI needed some heroin because I
was getting sick, you know,heroin withdrawal, opiate
withdrawal, heroin because I wasgetting sick.
You know heroin withdrawal,opiate withdrawal and, um, the
way that heroin addicts uh useheroin.
When you shoot it, um, you use alittle piece of cotton to
filter the heroin, um, you drawit up through a syringe.
Uh, first you put a littlewater in with heroin, you mix it
(21:09):
up in like a bottle cap or alittle you know kind of confined
space and then you put a littlepiece of cotton in there to
filter it up and you draw theheroin you know liquid mixture
up into your syringe and alittle bit of residue is left in
the cotton.
That, you know, is what theycall it cottons.
And so after you do your shot,do your, you know, get high, um,
(21:29):
you have cotton left over andif you save them up, you can
sprinkle a little water them,kind of mash them up and get
like a little kind of sludgysort of residue that you can
drop and get a high with thatwhen you're out of money or out
of heroin.
And so I had left out.
I had quite a few cottons,probably a couple dozen at the
(21:50):
time, and um, I'd left them outkind of damp in the uh july heat
and it was very hot in um, inthe room.
I left them out and and I camehome from work and I was, you
know, sick.
I was like I need, you know, Ineed a shop.
I don't have any money, I can't.
You know, my dealer won't frontme any today, you know, um, so
(22:10):
I need you know.
I need you know, I did a cottonshot but because I left those
damp cottons out in the humidsort of heat all day, I they'd
grown all kinds of you know,bacteria, and I mean just formed
a little like petri dish typeof situation there.
Uh, and so when I shot up, Imanaged to infect myself with a
(22:33):
pretty, uh, intense kind ofquickly acting bacterial
infection that came with bloodinfection and, um, so, by I
don't know, midnight that night,I was, um, throwing up.
I couldn't stop throwing up.
I kept throwing up.
I started throwing up bile, youknow, and, um, I had a high
(22:54):
fever and I was starting tohallucinate and, um, by the time
I got to the emergency room, Icouldn't feel my limbs and I
couldn't really think very welland I was starting to.
Uh, by the time they took meback, I was, I could feel myself
floating up out of my body andI was kind of watching myself
just sitting or laying there inthe emergency room, and so I'm
(23:19):
convinced that if I hadn't youknow, if I'd gotten there a few
hours later, I might not be heretoday.
If I hadn't got it all, Idefinitely wouldn't be here
today.
Um, and that's kind of what didit, and being in the hospital
for a few days while theytreated the bacterial infection,
I went through the worst of thewithdrawal, and so by the time
(23:42):
I got out, I had an opportunityand I just felt like I have to
have to try.
I didn't actually have theconfidence that I could be sober
at the time, but but I, like Isaid, I was terrified of dying
after that and I knew I couldn'tgo back to addiction.
So I felt you know, let me atleast try.
(24:03):
Yeah, that's what did it for me.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That's really powerful and what I really like
about that, and I'm going tohave to put a trigger warning on
this.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
What.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I like is that you chose life.
Ultimately, there was somethingabiding in you and you chose
that.
You know that thing, that weare born with that inner being,
that source, that love.
I call it God, but people havedifferent names for it and
different orientations.
But there's something in youthat wanted to live and, by the
(24:39):
grace of whatever God universe,something you got to live and
you are able to carry thismessage.
And it's a message of hope right, because you know let's move on
and talk about how it isbecause you're alive and it is
(25:00):
because you chose life that youended up in the business of
helping other people in theirrecovery journey.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Right, yeah, I mean, if I hadn't made that choice, I
wouldn't be able to help otherpeople who are in the process of
maybe getting to that choice ormaking that choice.
You know, or maybe starting me.
You know that divine spark, youknow whatever was in me that
that wanted to live, um.
I was just fortunate enough toto have that, you know um, and
for it to be, you know, kind ofreaching and grasping towards
(25:47):
life.
And I was fortunate enough to,uh, you know, to make that
choice and to to have peoplearound me who could help me when
I, you know, got there, becauseI think sort of one of the
basic, you know, fundamentals ofrecovery is that you really
can't do it alone, that you needhelp.
Yes, at least in the way I, youknow, subscribe to recovery.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That I haven't met anyone who could do it alone.
I honestly haven't.
Maybe that person is out theresomewhere, but I have not met
them.
You know, we, we have 12 stepprograms.
Aa was founded in 1935.
And then a plethora of 12 stepprograms have come as a result
of AA, of one drunk talking toanother one guy realizing he
(26:35):
couldn't do it alone and hecouldn't keep it to himself and
that he couldn't stay soberunless he gave it away.
And it's not a moral failing.
You are not a bad person, youknow.
This is really.
You know it may be a disease,it may be a disorder.
If it's in the DSM, it's adisorder.
(26:56):
But however you want to referto it, it acts on us mentally,
physically, spiritually,emotionally.
And going back to the wordchoice, because you and I have
been talking about the wordchoice a lot, we do have a
choice.
We just didn't know we had achoice for a very long time, but
(27:16):
at some point something snappedand you realized you had a
choice.
And I think I realized I had achoice when I surrendered my
will.
And the choice then becomes doI want this more than the life I
(27:37):
was living, the life where Iwas looking for the next high or
the next whatever?
Or you know, scouring mydrawers for you know, loose
change, or borrowing money orstealing or doing whatever
people do when they're trying toget something that they really
think they need.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, no, I mean, and I think it's a choice that you
make really on a daily basis.
Ultimately, yeah, you do havethat choice.
It's hard to see when you're in.
You know the thick of it.
When you're in, you know thedepths of addiction.
But what that kind of likenear-death experience gave me
was an opportunity to sort ofclear the smoke a little bit and
(28:19):
allow me to realize, you know,I have that choice and, um,
initially it was fear that gotme sober, but it was this, the
new life and the hope that I wasable to live in, that kept me
sober.
That's that message of hopethat I think is so basic to
(28:43):
recovery is that if you makethat choice, your life will get
better.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes, and I'm here to reinforce that point your life
will get better, and it may notseem so at first.
And you know the other thing,atticus life is going to
continue to happen, challengesare going to continue to come up
.
You know things are going tohappen that derail your plans or
(29:10):
you know so-and-so, you knowhurt you or you lost this or
whatever happened.
But when you make a choice tohandle it sober, you do so much
better.
For instance, this is a podcaston emotional intelligence and
the idea is that we have thatinner sage, we have the inner
(29:33):
source, and that source is thefive powers are empathy, and the
first person that we should allhave empathy with is ourselves,
right, and that becomes thatpart of that self love and self
regard, and that's.
If you want to call thatselfish, that's fine, because
that's a good kind of selfish.
(29:54):
That's not excluding anyoneelse from, you know, feeling
empathy.
But if we can't begin to lovethat self and honor that self,
then how can we possibly honorother people?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think one thing I hear again
and again repeatedly workingwith people you know, inactive
alcoholism and active addictionreally boiled down to you know
(30:35):
it's you know sort offundamental problem is that
you're terrible to yourself, youknow you're not good to
yourself.
I think I used to think ofaddiction as a parasite, you
know, which colonizes your, thattrue genuine core self and
replaces your needs and desireswith its own um and so, yeah,
(30:59):
you don't have that emotionalintelligence to, to, to take
care of yourself, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
and then if you, if you can get emotional
intelligence and I get it, Imean, it's a muscle that we have
to exercise.
You know, our brain is made upof all of these neural networks
and the addiction has createddifferent pathways that we go
down and our problems are solvedby getting high again or
whatever you know, and we haveto create new neural pathways.
(31:30):
And that involves choice and itinvolves thinking differently.
You have to choose to thinkdifferently, so you have to
reframe every experience.
Isn't this is bad?
This happened to me.
What am I going to do now?
It's okay.
I have a situation on my hands.
How can I respond to this?
And that involves exploring.
(31:52):
You know what's going on.
Where did this come from?
Did I bring it about?
Is there anything I can dodifferently?
Do I need to call on somebodyto ask for help?
Do I need to?
You know how do I navigate?
Another sage power is navigateanother podcast guest, actually.
And navigating is about askingyour older self what would you
(32:17):
tell my young self today aboutthis thing?
What do I need to know?
And if you can kind of inhabitthat older self, you will find
that you actually have morewisdom than you think yes, yeah
you know, so explore, navigate,and then you know and and have
empathy and really take actionon whatever you're learning.
(32:46):
You know, and one of them is isum innovate.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And so innovate means think outside the box or go to
plan B and maybe plan C type ofthinking, your style of thinking
(33:14):
, and that's something you haveto work on and exercise every
day.
Um, because I obviously a lotof people that deal with
addiction um, they have a verynegative cast of mind which is
particularly surprising, youknow, when you've lived that
sort of life for many, manyyears.
But, um, if you carry that typeof thinking over into sobriety,
into recovery, you're going toset yourself up for a
(33:37):
catastrophe down the road sooneror later.
And so you have to, you know,you have to really work at that,
because that's the only youknow way that you've known how
to think.
But you have to.
You have to start seeing theworld in a different way,
because you want to experiencelife in a different way.
Obviously you have to thinkdifferently, you know you have
(33:58):
to act differently than whatyou've done before.
And so I mean, I think, goingback to the, the idea of sort of
selfishness, you know that thatsort of like taking care of
yourself is, is, is a good kindof selfishness.
Um, you know that that sort oflike taking care of yourself is,
is, uh, is a good kind ofselfishness.
Um, I think a lot of addicts areobviously like, unintentionally
(34:22):
but definitely self-centered,because they're all about their
addiction, they're all abouttheir alcoholism, they're all
about you know, the next drinkor the next high, um, and that's
obviously a very sort ofself-centered way to live, um,
and so you have to escape fromthat very narrow you know the
very narrow confines of that.
You talk about innovation andnavigation.
(34:44):
You know being able to see thatthe world is bigger than just
your.
You know your, your addictionand your phobias and your.
You know various you knowlittle moments of frustration
and anger and irritation.
That you can move beyond thatinto a much brighter and wide
(35:05):
open world.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Right, right, and I was while you were talking.
I always have like 100 thingsgoing through my head and what
came up for me while you weretalking about that is you know
the thinking differently andreorienting, because you can be
what some people would say youcan be dry, but you're not sober
(35:27):
.
You know you can, you can beoff substances, but if you
haven't really changed yourthinking and you aren't living
differently, thinkingdifferently and behaving
differently and repairingrelationships and nourishing new
ones, then ultimately, whatkind of life is that?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
right.
What was the point of gettingsober in the first place if
you're just gonna live the sameway without just without the
drink or the drug?
You're just going to live thesame way without, just without
the drink or the drug.
Yeah, I mean to me, like I'vesaid, what has kept me sober is
the opportunity to thinkdifferently and to live
differently.
And I think if I had juststayed the same person I was, I
(36:11):
probably would have been back onheroin, you know, within a year
or so, if I just kept.
You know, and obviously it's noteasy because it doesn't come
naturally to you after years ofaddiction.
You know, like you said, it'ssomething you have to really
work at.
But to me, that's the wholepoint of recovery is to be able
(36:32):
to start to think differentlyand to live differently.
And if you don't want to makethe choice to kind of take that
opportunity and to try and youknow inevitably you're going to
fail at things, you know you'renot going to succeed all the
time.
Obviously life happens, likeyou said, but trying to keep
going in a sort of positivedirection, that's, that's the
(36:53):
opportunity I think thatrecovery gives us every day.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, exactly, and it is.
It is a new life.
It really is.
And just to repeat, nobody saidit was going to be easy peasy,
but I think you and I agree thatit is better, better, better.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh, of course, yeah, yeah, a thousand times.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah.
So it may not be easy to changeyour thinking.
It isn't going to happenovernight.
It is, as I say in this podcast.
We have, you know, basically apositive intelligence or
emotional intelligence muscleand it needs to go to the gym.
We have to exercise the muscleevery day and that involves, for
me, meditation and prayer andit involves gratitude.
(37:39):
You know, I'm always thinkingabout what am I grateful for and
, as I was telling a friendyesterday, sometimes we get a
FGO O's, another effing growthopportunity.
But because I can say it likethat, I can accept it like oh,
(38:00):
okay here, I guess I needed tolearn that.
Or what is this?
What is this situation teachingme right now, or what is it that
I need to learn from this?
And if I can call it an AFGO,I'm much more likely to to maybe
take in what it is that I needto learn versus oh, this is
(38:22):
terrible, Look what this thinghappened.
But as soon as it's an AFGO,it's like yep, there we go again
.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you can.
Gives you the opportunity tolearn from life rather than to
just suffer through and endureit.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, Right and and yeah, I'm here to say that the
world is actually a good place.
Yes, there are bad thingshappening in the world and yes,
there are problems, and yes, weneed to do things about them.
We need to take action.
But that's why emotionalintelligence is so important.
It's how can we reorientourselves to ourselves and to
(39:04):
each other and to the world atlarge so that we can make it a
better place and so that we canfight addiction on all fronts?
Because it's, you know, there'sthis dry January.
This episode, you know, is kindof coming at the very end of
January, and dry January is agreat step in the right
(39:29):
direction, but it is really justa pebble, you know.
It's not what real sobriety is.
There's something about stayingdry and maybe swearing off it
for a month and seeing howthings go, but that doesn't
necessarily mean you're going tolive differently.
It means you're dry for Januaryand it's a good start.
(39:51):
I don't want to knock dryJanuary, but I do want to say
that it goes much deeper thanthat.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I personally, I mean, I, I
think I'm still just at thebeginning of getting to know
myself as a person, um, becauseit's a lifelong process, um.
But you know, like you said,the world, if you think of it as
a bad place, you're obviouslyyou're not going to have a good
(40:19):
time in life.
You're going to have a bad timebecause you're living in a bad
place.
That's how you think of it,that's what it's going to be to
you.
But I mean, I like to remindmyself you know you talk about
gratitude just how amazing it isto be able to be alive.
You know, at this time, youknow, on this planet, in this
(40:40):
universe Like it's just.
It's not something you shouldtake for granted.
I don't think you know beingable to wake up every day and
experience the world it's.
You only have one life and Iwould like to be able to live it
in a way that makes me happyand I think that boils over into
(41:03):
other things.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
right, because if you're happy and you're grounded
and you're able to sort of takelife with a grain of salt,
that's going to spill over intoyour interactions with other
people and it makes you a moreeffective recovery coach too.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So this was a bit of a sober podcast, but I hope
everyone gets the message thatthis is really about.
There's hope that addiction isterrible and it's horrible and
it can really wreck your lifeand maybe it already has on some
level, if you're watching orlistening to this but it doesn't
have to stay that way andthere's help out there and all
(41:51):
of that help will be in the shownotes.
There's help out there and allof that help will be in the show
notes.
But ultimately, Atticus and Iwant to tell you that life is
good and it is so much bettersober than under the influence.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, a thousand times, definitely, and you can
change your life.
I think is sort of the messagethere.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, I think doesn't that say that there?
Change your mind, change yourlife.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, it is, and so, Atticus, this is a good place
for us to wrap up, and youmentioned a song that resonates
with you, and I thought I wouldplay it for our audience.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
And that is our show.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Thank you so much for tuning in and remember, please
like and subscribe to thispodcast and if you think you
(42:59):
want to work with a recoverycoach, I'm available, atticus is
available and we are here tohelp you.
We just wanted to show you thatthere is a way out of addiction
that is above and beyond yourwildest dreams, out of addiction
that is above and beyond yourwildest dreams.
So thanks, everybody, and I'llsee you at the emotional
intelligence or EQ gym.
(43:21):
Bye.
I think initially what kept me sober was probably
fear.
Fear, you know, gave me alittle bit of the urgency and
immediacy that I needed.
Fear of dying, I mean heroinaddiction especially, is I've
had a lot of friends, you know,lost friends to it Fentanyl now
just so pervasive, I mean, it'seven deadlier than heroin, and
(00:20):
so I was very afraid of dyingand that's what I think kept me
sober at first and thenultimately, you know, kind of
going back to the identity pieceof it, I was able to start to
see, you know, that coreidentity, you know who I was
start to get after the urgencyof the fear, you know, has sort
(00:47):
of maybe calmed down a littlebit over the years.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome to the podcast Emotional Intelligence
your Greatest Asset and Key toSuccess.
I'm your host, dr JamieCarlaccio, coming to you from
the Greater New Haven,connecticut area, as an
emotional intelligence or EQcoach.
I'm committed to helping peopledevelop both emotional
intelligence and mental fitness.
That is, you'll come to regardproblems as situations that help
(01:22):
you learn and grow.
Eq is a way of being and doingin the world that enables you to
develop and sustain a positiverelationship with yourself and
others, at home, at work andeverywhere in between.
Please subscribe to thispodcast and tap the like button
so more people can enjoy thebenefits of EQ.
And now here's the show.
(01:43):
Can enjoy the benefits of EQ.
And now here's the show.
Hello everybody, this podcast isdedicated to addiction, and
this is a serious subject.
This is a life and deathsubject, and my guest and I
discuss some things that arevery sensitive, and so this is
your trigger warning If youthink this may trigger you into
(02:06):
using or into rememberingsomething very painful about
addiction.
Just wanted to let you knowthat we do get really honest and
real in this podcast episode.
So this is your trigger warning.
You may want to sit this oneout if you feel like it's
something that you are not sureyou're ready to handle and there
(02:28):
is help, and all of thatinformation will be in the show
notes.
Thanks, hello and welcomeeverybody, and it is good to be
back and I am excited because Ihave an awesome, awesome guest
today.
His name is Atticus Canem-Klein.
Yes, you can ask him how he gotthe name Atticus and you can
(02:51):
find out if it's from To Kill aMockingbird, atticus.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I'm excellent.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Good, good.
I asked Atticus to join ustoday because Atticus is in
recovery from addiction and Iwanted to take a moment to
really take some time out totalk about something really
serious, because when it comesto addiction, it is literally
life and death.
But before we get into ourconversation, let me just tell
(03:26):
you a few words about Atticus.
Atticus Canem-Klein is agrateful in his words,
recovering addict from New Haven, connecticut, and thankful for
every day that he can wake upsober and alive.
He's fortunate enough to helpothers in a way that he was
helped working on a novel thatis loosely inspired by events in
(04:09):
his hometown and his experiencewith addiction, and you can
read some of his work onSubstack and I will include all
of this in the show notes aswell as at the Quincy
Institute's online magazine,responsible Statecraft, which
has published a couple of hisarticles on foreign affairs.
So thank you.
(04:29):
You are kind of an eclecticblend, shall I say.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So tell us a little bit about your journey in
addiction and recovery and thenI'll kind of probably break in
and, you know, talk about howrecovery is possible when you
want it.
But also you know, it's notjust a matter of stopping the
(04:58):
drugs or the alcohol.
It is what you do with how yourespond to things in life.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, very true.
So yeah, a little, a little bitabout my personal journey.
I started, as many people do,started drugs and alcohol, you
know, getting high and drinkingat a pretty young age, and I was
(05:31):
introduced to heroin in my teen, my teenage years, and that
pretty much.
I was pretty much all downhillfrom there.
Heroin and crack cocaine, andso my life was all about drugs
(05:52):
for many years, from the time Iwas very young until my mid-20s.
I'm 29, now, almost 30.
But for a good chunk of my lifeit revolved entirely around
drugs and, um, I was prettymiserable, as you can maybe
(06:12):
imagine, because, um, it's not a, you know, it's not a way to
live.
It saps the you know, thevitality and joy out of life.
Um, drug addiction it's a, it'sa prison, um, but it's the type
of prison from which theredoesn't appear to be any escape
(06:33):
much of the time, unfortunately.
And so I was stuck in a placewhere I didn't want to continue
living like that.
But I couldn't imagine orvisualize an alternative type of
life and it took sort ofexternal events to force me to
(06:53):
kind of come to a place where Icould finally stop.
I tried a couple times when Iwas younger sort of
half-heartedly and at the behestof my family or you know that
kind of thing to stop doingdrugs.
But for whatever reason, I gotto a place where I was just
ready and I couldn't do it on myown, but I had this external
(07:17):
sort of push that ultimately gotme into recovery.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Okay, well, I will talk about what that is in a
moment, but I want to go back toa couple of things that you
said.
One of them is that you feltlike your life was miserable.
And you felt miserable andthere wasn't any joy involved in
your life.
But, as I understand it and itwas the same for me alcohol is
(07:45):
my drug of choice and I've beensober for a few 24.
But it was fun at first.
It was fun and I had.
You know, I went to parties andI fit in with lots of different
people and I wanted to fit in.
So part of my consumption hadto do with being social and
(08:06):
feeling like there was some kindof euphoria.
So did it start off as fun andthen become not fun?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Oh yeah, of course.
I mean, if it wasn't fun Idon't think we would do it.
I know in my, my experience Ithink was a little like yours in
that part of it was related tosocial dynamics a little bit.
But yeah, it was fun, it wasvery fun.
I remember thinking the firsttime I got high I just thought
(08:37):
the word like magic, this islike, you know, real life magic.
I just wish I could feel thisway all the time and that kind
of became my life's mission fromthat point on.
But yeah, it was fun, it waseuphoric and it gave me some
certain drugs alcohol, cocaine,xanax in particular made it
(08:58):
easier for me to be social and Ialways had, I think, as many
kids do.
I always kind of felt like I'ma little different from everyone
.
You know, like if I can do thisthen I'll be more like everyone
else, you know, like you know,made me, help me to be able to
socialize.
Of course, the paradoxparadoxically, it's like it
helps you fit in, but then italso, I don't know accentuates
(09:30):
the difference because you feelkind of like cool and, you know,
more interesting because I'mnot like these normal people.
You know I'm on drugs.
So it gives you a kind ofidentity.
You know as well, which I thinka lot of you know it's a big
thing for young people isdefining who you are in life,
and drugs kind of gave me bydefault that sort of identity.
But yeah definitely.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, it was fun at first, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So you said so many awesomethings that I want to pick up on
.
I still want to, I want to puton the on the shelf for a moment
this idea of prison, becausewhat came to?
my mind was a straight jacket,you know, like a small room with
no windows and you're just in astraight jacket in that know,
like a small room with nowindows, and you're just in a
straight jacket in that room andthere's no escape.
But before we go there, youknow, you said, you know, having
(10:13):
that feeling of, oh my gosh, Ifit in, I'm cool, this is fun.
And you know you said somethingalso that resonated with me
that that first time was soawesome.
You wanted it again and youwanted it again and you wanted
it again, yeah, yeah yeah butthen and then you got hooked,
(10:36):
and then it was like now I haveto have it yeah, and I think
that happened pretty fast for me.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I mean, I started just with alcohol and marijuana
but, um, even just there, Iturned pretty quickly to an
everyday thing.
I remember, um, actuallydrawing up a little schedule for
myself when I first started,like I'll do it on a, you know,
wednesday and friday andwhatever you know, and that
(11:06):
maybe went on for like a week ortwo and then it was pretty much
like I'm just gonna do thisevery day if I can afford it.
You know, um, yeah, but I, Imean the timeline, I don't know
exactly.
You know when it got, itstopped being fun and started
being, you know, a compulsion orwhatever you might want to call
it.
But, um, you know it, ithappens eventually by, uh, you
(11:29):
know, inevitably that's when itbecomes that kind of prison, I
think.
Yes, exactly, you knowinevitably that's when it
becomes that kind of prison, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, exactly, you know, I think about it as liquid
handcuffs or some kind ofhandcuff, you know if you need
alcohol, it's liquid.
If you need Xanax, it'sobviously not a liquid, although
I guess you could crush it, dosomething with it, with water
and drink it but handcuffs is isthe thing that keeps coming to
(11:55):
mind Because, as you pointed out, you know you tried a schedule
and then the schedule just wentright out the window.
Yeah, yeah, and I think a lotof people who suffer from
substance use addiction inwhatever form that takes, and it
also could be a processaddiction, like gambling or
pornography or shopping or sex.
(12:19):
We try to control it and wefind we can't and the brain has
decided I like what's happeninghere and I want it again.
And then, when the brain getsused to it, even when it's bad
for us, the addiction has done anumber on the brain to the
(12:40):
extent that the withdrawals areso bad that we have to have it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
You're right.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I thinkthere are, you know a lot of
factors that I mean I thinkthere are you know a lot of
factors that keep you in thatsort of that state and that sort
of the you know, the basicneurochemical ones are very,
very strong, especially withsomething like with heroin, or
Xanax, benzodiazepines, becauseyou know, or alcohol, especially
(13:07):
, you know, physical withdrawalis very intense, intense and, um
, as a heroin addict, I mean itwas sort of like a search for
money to find, you know, drugsto stop the withdrawal, and then
, you know, then you just try tofigure out how to do it again
the next day.
Um, but yeah, I mean, and Ithink that that sort of the
(13:29):
neurochemical, you knowcompulsion is is entwined with
for me was, you know, uh, youknow, self-loathing and those
aspects of identity like how canI change?
This is who I am, you know, andit just keeps you in that,
those handcuffs, as it were.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I was thinking while youwere talking about that idea of
your identity you know who areyou, and a lot of times, I think
, people who have substance useaddiction forget who they are
Like.
(14:06):
There is this core self.
There's this core beautiful,wonderful self that was born
into this world.
And when you are in youraddiction, that's not who you
are.
No, that is just you under theinfluence of something.
But I hear a lot of peoplerefer very negatively to
(14:28):
themselves as addicts or aslosers or whatever.
Or I see, even in society, eventhough we know so much about
substance use addiction, westill hear the negative comments
and we still get the negativejudgments like you're an addict,
(14:49):
or there's something wrong withyou, or you're a moral failure.
An addict, or there's somethingwrong with you, or you're a
moral failure.
And when you layer all of thaton top of the person with the
addiction, how can you get outfrom under that?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, it's very difficult.
I mean, unfortunately, despiteyou know, the fact that I think
it's much more common today torecognize addiction as a disease
, there's obviously still, youknow, a stigma out there and all
these negative implicationsthat go along with the language
we use around addiction.
But, yeah, how do you get outof that?
(15:27):
I mean, obviously, in terms ofthe sort of moral model of it,
you know you're a moral failureor whatever.
Right, they would think it's anact of will and if you just
have a strong enough will thenyou can solve your problems that
way, you know, by yourself.
But unfortunately I haven'treally found that to be the case
(15:51):
.
Haven't really found that to bethe case.
I mean, I know people withpretty strong wills who have,
you know, been alcoholics andaddicts for a long time.
But so how do you get out fromunder that?
In my case, I got to a point of, I suppose, despair and I think
(16:12):
I was just waiting forsomething to happen, because I
didn't have the sort ofrequisite I don't know, you know
means within myself to push meover the edge into recovery.
But I was waiting for somethingto happen and, you know,
something did happen and, forwhatever reason, that was enough
for me.
And I think initially what keptme sober was probably fear.
(16:36):
Fear, you know, gave me alittle bit of the urgency and
immediacy that I needed.
Fear of dying, I mean heroinaddiction, especially as I've
had a lot of friends, you know,lost friends to it.
Fentanyl, now just so pervasive, I mean, it's even deadlier
than heroin, and so I was veryafraid of dying.
And that's what I think kept mesober at first.
(16:57):
And then ultimately, you know,kind of going back to the
identity piece of it, I was ableto start to see, you know, that
core identity, you know who Iwas, start to get at least a
vague idea of it, you know, andbuild a new life for myself.
And that sort of positive pushis what I think has kept me
(17:22):
sober after the urgency of thefear you know has sort of maybe
calmed down a little bit overthe years, yeah, but it's.
It's a tough question, I mean,and you know one that everybody
has to face in addiction is youknow how do you get out from
under it?
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Right and you know.
Going back to the willpowerthing, you're right.
Once your brain is addicted toa substance and it wants it, it
needs it, it has to have it.
There's no amount of willpower.
You are a very smart person.
You're very accomplished.
I was a high functioningalcoholic and I had a good job
and I did a lot of things, but Icouldn't stop drinking and I
(18:02):
also tried to devise a scheduleand make little rules for myself
about what I would drink andwhat I wouldn't drink, and what
I would drink and what Iwouldn't drink.
And none of it worked.
Nothing worked.
And I had a deep spiritualbottom.
You know, I was physically notwell.
Most emotionally I wasn't well,and mentally it wasn't really
(18:25):
well.
And spiritually I feltspiritually bankrupt on a lot of
levels, like I didn't have arelationship.
I thought I had a relationshipwith God, but it was.
It wasn't the same relationshipI have today.
Today that relationship is deepand abiding and there's a lot
more going on.
But when I initially thought Ihad a relationship with the God
(18:50):
of my understanding, it was, youknow, foxhole prayers and you
know my life consisted of.
Please don't let me drink today,god.
On the way to the liquor store.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
You know, and it was and and so and.
So what happened for me was Ihad a complete surrender and I
did have medical issues and atfirst they didn't stop me.
But I know that you havesomething much more dramatic,
and I definitely want you totell our audience about that,
because that was one reason Iasked you to come on this
(19:25):
podcast, because this is somedeadly serious stuff, stuff, and
you are a testament to someonewho said, okay, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
So, if you don't mind , sharing a little bit about how
you did get sober of course Imean, yeah, going back to the,
that moment of surrender and thefear of death I talked about,
um, I mean, like I said I was, Iwas a heroin addict, I was a
crack user, so I shot heroinevery day, several times a day,
(19:59):
and the event that really pushedme to get there, you know I had
overdosed before, you know, acouple of times over the years
and that, for whatever reason,wasn't enough, I'd seen friends
die and that you, whateverreason wasn't enough, um, I'd
seen friends die, and that, youknow, wasn't enough.
But, um, I got to a point whereI was just totally miserable
(20:22):
and what happened was I, uh, Iwas working at the time, despite
, you know, my addiction.
I managed to hold down a jobmost of the time over the years
and, um, I was working but I hadspent all my money, you know,
pretty early in the sort of paycycle we got paid every two
weeks I spent all my money andby the second week it was
usually a scramble to try, andyou know, scheme and make money.
(20:45):
But so I spent all my money andI needed some heroin because I
was getting sick, you know,heroin withdrawal, opiate
withdrawal, heroin because I wasgetting sick.
You know heroin withdrawal,opiate withdrawal and, um, the
way that heroin addicts uh useheroin.
When you shoot it, um, you use alittle piece of cotton to
filter the heroin, um, you drawit up through a syringe.
Uh, first you put a littlewater in with heroin, you mix it
(21:09):
up in like a bottle cap or alittle you know kind of confined
space and then you put a littlepiece of cotton in there to
filter it up and you draw theheroin you know liquid mixture
up into your syringe and alittle bit of residue is left in
the cotton.
That, you know, is what theycall it cottons.
And so after you do your shot,do your, you know, get high, um,
(21:29):
you have cotton left over andif you save them up, you can
sprinkle a little water them,kind of mash them up and get
like a little kind of sludgysort of residue that you can
drop and get a high with thatwhen you're out of money or out
of heroin.
And so I had left out.
I had quite a few cottons,probably a couple dozen at the
(21:50):
time, and um, I'd left them outkind of damp in the uh july heat
and it was very hot in um, inthe room.
I left them out and and I camehome from work and I was, you
know, sick.
I was like I need, you know, Ineed a shop.
I don't have any money, I can't.
You know, my dealer won't frontme any today, you know, um, so
(22:10):
I need you know.
I need you know, I did a cottonshot but because I left those
damp cottons out in the humidsort of heat all day, I they'd
grown all kinds of you know,bacteria, and I mean just formed
a little like petri dish typeof situation there.
Uh, and so when I shot up, Imanaged to infect myself with a
(22:33):
pretty, uh, intense kind ofquickly acting bacterial
infection that came with bloodinfection and, um, so, by I
don't know, midnight that night,I was, um, throwing up.
I couldn't stop throwing up.
I kept throwing up.
I started throwing up bile, youknow, and, um, I had a high
(22:54):
fever and I was starting tohallucinate and, um, by the time
I got to the emergency room, Icouldn't feel my limbs and I
couldn't really think very welland I was starting to.
Uh, by the time they took meback, I was, I could feel myself
floating up out of my body andI was kind of watching myself
just sitting or laying there inthe emergency room, and so I'm
(23:19):
convinced that if I hadn't youknow, if I'd gotten there a few
hours later, I might not be heretoday.
If I hadn't got it all, Idefinitely wouldn't be here
today.
Um, and that's kind of what didit, and being in the hospital
for a few days while theytreated the bacterial infection,
I went through the worst of thewithdrawal, and so by the time
(23:42):
I got out, I had an opportunityand I just felt like I have to
have to try.
I didn't actually have theconfidence that I could be sober
at the time, but but I, like Isaid, I was terrified of dying
after that and I knew I couldn'tgo back to addiction.
So I felt you know, let me atleast try.
(24:03):
Yeah, that's what did it for me.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That's really powerful and what I really like
about that, and I'm going tohave to put a trigger warning on
this.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
What.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I like is that you chose life.
Ultimately, there was somethingabiding in you and you chose
that.
You know that thing, that weare born with that inner being,
that source, that love.
I call it God, but people havedifferent names for it and
different orientations.
But there's something in youthat wanted to live and, by the
(24:39):
grace of whatever God universe,something you got to live and
you are able to carry thismessage.
And it's a message of hope right, because you know let's move on
and talk about how it isbecause you're alive and it is
(25:00):
because you chose life that youended up in the business of
helping other people in theirrecovery journey.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Right, yeah, I mean, if I hadn't made that choice, I
wouldn't be able to help otherpeople who are in the process of
maybe getting to that choice ormaking that choice.
You know, or maybe starting me.
You know that divine spark, youknow whatever was in me that
that wanted to live, um.
I was just fortunate enough toto have that, you know um, and
for it to be, you know, kind ofreaching and grasping towards
(25:47):
life.
And I was fortunate enough to,uh, you know, to make that
choice and to to have peoplearound me who could help me when
I, you know, got there, becauseI think sort of one of the
basic, you know, fundamentals ofrecovery is that you really
can't do it alone, that you needhelp.
Yes, at least in the way I, youknow, subscribe to recovery.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That I haven't met anyone who could do it alone.
I honestly haven't.
Maybe that person is out theresomewhere, but I have not met
them.
You know, we, we have 12 stepprograms.
Aa was founded in 1935.
And then a plethora of 12 stepprograms have come as a result
of AA, of one drunk talking toanother one guy realizing he
(26:35):
couldn't do it alone and hecouldn't keep it to himself and
that he couldn't stay soberunless he gave it away.
And it's not a moral failing.
You are not a bad person, youknow.
This is really.
You know it may be a disease,it may be a disorder.
If it's in the DSM, it's adisorder.
(26:56):
But however you want to referto it, it acts on us mentally,
physically, spiritually,emotionally.
And going back to the wordchoice, because you and I have
been talking about the wordchoice a lot, we do have a
choice.
We just didn't know we had achoice for a very long time, but
(27:16):
at some point something snappedand you realized you had a
choice.
And I think I realized I had achoice when I surrendered my
will.
And the choice then becomes doI want this more than the life I
(27:37):
was living, the life where Iwas looking for the next high or
the next whatever?
Or you know, scouring mydrawers for you know, loose
change, or borrowing money orstealing or doing whatever
people do when they're trying toget something that they really
think they need.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, no, I mean, and I think it's a choice that you
make really on a daily basis.
Ultimately, yeah, you do havethat choice.
It's hard to see when you're in.
You know the thick of it.
When you're in, you know thedepths of addiction.
But what that kind of likenear-death experience gave me
was an opportunity to sort ofclear the smoke a little bit and
(28:19):
allow me to realize, you know,I have that choice and, um,
initially it was fear that gotme sober, but it was this, the
new life and the hope that I wasable to live in, that kept me
sober.
That's that message of hopethat I think is so basic to
(28:43):
recovery is that if you makethat choice, your life will get
better.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yes, and I'm here to reinforce that point your life
will get better, and it may notseem so at first.
And you know the other thing,atticus life is going to
continue to happen, challengesare going to continue to come up
.
You know things are going tohappen that derail your plans or
(29:10):
you know so-and-so, you knowhurt you or you lost this or
whatever happened.
But when you make a choice tohandle it sober, you do so much
better.
For instance, this is a podcaston emotional intelligence and
the idea is that we have thatinner sage, we have the inner
(29:33):
source, and that source is thefive powers are empathy, and the
first person that we should allhave empathy with is ourselves,
right, and that becomes thatpart of that self love and self
regard, and that's.
If you want to call thatselfish, that's fine, because
that's a good kind of selfish.
(29:54):
That's not excluding anyoneelse from, you know, feeling
empathy.
But if we can't begin to lovethat self and honor that self,
then how can we possibly honorother people?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think one thing I hear again
and again repeatedly workingwith people you know, inactive
alcoholism and active addictionreally boiled down to you know
(30:35):
it's you know sort offundamental problem is that
you're terrible to yourself, youknow you're not good to
yourself.
I think I used to think ofaddiction as a parasite, you
know, which colonizes your, thattrue genuine core self and
replaces your needs and desireswith its own um and so, yeah,
(30:59):
you don't have that emotionalintelligence to, to, to take
care of yourself, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
and then if you, if you can get emotional
intelligence and I get it, Imean, it's a muscle that we have
to exercise.
You know, our brain is made upof all of these neural networks
and the addiction has createddifferent pathways that we go
down and our problems are solvedby getting high again or
whatever you know, and we haveto create new neural pathways.
(31:30):
And that involves choice and itinvolves thinking differently.
You have to choose to thinkdifferently, so you have to
reframe every experience.
Isn't this is bad?
This happened to me.
What am I going to do now?
It's okay.
I have a situation on my hands.
How can I respond to this?
And that involves exploring.
(31:52):
You know what's going on.
Where did this come from?
Did I bring it about?
Is there anything I can dodifferently?
Do I need to call on somebodyto ask for help?
Do I need to?
You know how do I navigate?
Another sage power is navigateanother podcast guest, actually.
And navigating is about askingyour older self what would you
(32:17):
tell my young self today aboutthis thing?
What do I need to know?
And if you can kind of inhabitthat older self, you will find
that you actually have morewisdom than you think yes, yeah
you know, so explore, navigate,and then you know and and have
empathy and really take actionon whatever you're learning.
(32:46):
You know, and one of them is isum innovate.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
And so innovate means think outside the box or go to
plan B and maybe plan C type ofthinking, your style of thinking
(33:14):
, and that's something you haveto work on and exercise every
day.
Um, because I obviously a lotof people that deal with
addiction um, they have a verynegative cast of mind which is
particularly surprising, youknow, when you've lived that
sort of life for many, manyyears.
But, um, if you carry that typeof thinking over into sobriety,
into recovery, you're going toset yourself up for a
(33:37):
catastrophe down the road sooneror later.
And so you have to, you know,you have to really work at that,
because that's the only youknow way that you've known how
to think.
But you have to.
You have to start seeing theworld in a different way,
because you want to experiencelife in a different way.
Obviously you have to thinkdifferently, you know you have
(33:58):
to act differently than whatyou've done before.
And so I mean, I think, goingback to the, the idea of sort of
selfishness, you know that thatsort of like taking care of
yourself is, is, is a good kindof selfishness.
Um, you know that that sort oflike taking care of yourself is,
is, uh, is a good kind ofselfishness.
Um, I think a lot of addicts areobviously like, unintentionally
(34:22):
but definitely self-centered,because they're all about their
addiction, they're all abouttheir alcoholism, they're all
about you know, the next drinkor the next high, um, and that's
obviously a very sort ofself-centered way to live, um,
and so you have to escape fromthat very narrow you know the
very narrow confines of that.
You talk about innovation andnavigation.
(34:44):
You know being able to see thatthe world is bigger than just
your.
You know your, your addictionand your phobias and your.
You know various you knowlittle moments of frustration
and anger and irritation.
That you can move beyond thatinto a much brighter and wide
(35:05):
open world.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Right, right, and I was while you were talking.
I always have like 100 thingsgoing through my head and what
came up for me while you weretalking about that is you know
the thinking differently andreorienting, because you can be
what some people would say youcan be dry, but you're not sober
(35:27):
.
You know you can, you can beoff substances, but if you
haven't really changed yourthinking and you aren't living
differently, thinkingdifferently and behaving
differently and repairingrelationships and nourishing new
ones, then ultimately, whatkind of life is that?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
right.
What was the point of gettingsober in the first place if
you're just gonna live the sameway without just without the
drink or the drug?
You're just going to live thesame way without, just without
the drink or the drug.
Yeah, I mean to me, like I'vesaid, what has kept me sober is
the opportunity to thinkdifferently and to live
differently.
And I think if I had juststayed the same person I was, I
(36:11):
probably would have been back onheroin, you know, within a year
or so, if I just kept.
You know, and obviously it's noteasy because it doesn't come
naturally to you after years ofaddiction.
You know, like you said, it'ssomething you have to really
work at.
But to me, that's the wholepoint of recovery is to be able
(36:32):
to start to think differentlyand to live differently.
And if you don't want to makethe choice to kind of take that
opportunity and to try and youknow inevitably you're going to
fail at things, you know you'renot going to succeed all the
time.
Obviously life happens, likeyou said, but trying to keep
going in a sort of positivedirection, that's, that's the
(36:53):
opportunity I think thatrecovery gives us every day.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, exactly, and it is.
It is a new life.
It really is.
And just to repeat, nobody saidit was going to be easy peasy,
but I think you and I agree thatit is better, better, better.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh, of course, yeah, yeah, a thousand times.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah.
So it may not be easy to changeyour thinking.
It isn't going to happenovernight.
It is, as I say in this podcast.
We have, you know, basically apositive intelligence or
emotional intelligence muscleand it needs to go to the gym.
We have to exercise the muscleevery day and that involves, for
me, meditation and prayer andit involves gratitude.
(37:39):
You know, I'm always thinkingabout what am I grateful for and
, as I was telling a friendyesterday, sometimes we get a
FGO O's, another effing growthopportunity.
But because I can say it likethat, I can accept it like oh,
(38:00):
okay here, I guess I needed tolearn that.
Or what is this?
What is this situation teachingme right now, or what is it that
I need to learn from this?
And if I can call it an AFGO,I'm much more likely to to maybe
take in what it is that I needto learn versus oh, this is
(38:22):
terrible, Look what this thinghappened.
But as soon as it's an AFGO,it's like yep, there we go again
.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you can.
Gives you the opportunity tolearn from life rather than to
just suffer through and endureit.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, Right and and yeah, I'm here to say that the
world is actually a good place.
Yes, there are bad thingshappening in the world and yes,
there are problems, and yes, weneed to do things about them.
We need to take action.
But that's why emotionalintelligence is so important.
It's how can we reorientourselves to ourselves and to
(39:04):
each other and to the world atlarge so that we can make it a
better place and so that we canfight addiction on all fronts?
Because it's, you know, there'sthis dry January.
This episode, you know, is kindof coming at the very end of
January, and dry January is agreat step in the right
(39:29):
direction, but it is really justa pebble, you know.
It's not what real sobriety is.
There's something about stayingdry and maybe swearing off it
for a month and seeing howthings go, but that doesn't
necessarily mean you're going tolive differently.
It means you're dry for Januaryand it's a good start.
(39:51):
I don't want to knock dryJanuary, but I do want to say
that it goes much deeper thanthat.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I personally, I mean, I, I
think I'm still just at thebeginning of getting to know
myself as a person, um, becauseit's a lifelong process, um.
But you know, like you said,the world, if you think of it as
a bad place, you're obviouslyyou're not going to have a good
(40:19):
time in life.
You're going to have a bad timebecause you're living in a bad
place.
That's how you think of it,that's what it's going to be to
you.
But I mean, I like to remindmyself you know you talk about
gratitude just how amazing it isto be able to be alive.
You know, at this time, youknow, on this planet, in this
(40:40):
universe Like it's just.
It's not something you shouldtake for granted.
I don't think you know beingable to wake up every day and
experience the world it's.
You only have one life and Iwould like to be able to live it
in a way that makes me happyand I think that boils over into
(41:03):
other things.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
right, because if you're happy and you're grounded
and you're able to sort of takelife with a grain of salt,
that's going to spill over intoyour interactions with other
people and it makes you a moreeffective recovery coach too.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So this was a bit of a sober podcast, but I hope
everyone gets the message thatthis is really about.
There's hope that addiction isterrible and it's horrible and
it can really wreck your lifeand maybe it already has on some
level, if you're watching orlistening to this but it doesn't
have to stay that way andthere's help out there and all
(41:51):
of that help will be in the shownotes.
There's help out there and allof that help will be in the show
notes.
But ultimately, Atticus and Iwant to tell you that life is
good and it is so much bettersober than under the influence.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, a thousand times, definitely, and you can
change your life.
I think is sort of the messagethere.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, I think doesn't that say that there?
Change your mind, change yourlife.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, it is, and so, Atticus, this is a good place
for us to wrap up, and youmentioned a song that resonates
with you, and I thought I wouldplay it for our audience.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
And that is our show.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
Thank you so much for tuning in and remember, please
like and subscribe to thispodcast and if you think you
(42:59):
want to work with a recoverycoach, I'm available, atticus is
available and we are here tohelp you.
We just wanted to show you thatthere is a way out of addiction
that is above and beyond yourwildest dreams, out of addiction
that is above and beyond yourwildest dreams.
So thanks, everybody, and I'llsee you at the emotional
intelligence or EQ gym.
(43:21):
Bye.
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