June 24, 2025 • 38 mins
In this timely conversation, I sit down with S. Leigh Thompson—a published and award-winning organizer, strategist, professional coach, and organizational development consultant who has spent over 20 years helping organizations and leaders "Do Good Work—BETTER." Leigh brings a unique perspective to transformation work, having guided everyone from Fortune 500 companies to grassroots organizations through strategic change that builds stronger, more cohesive cultures.
We explore how empathy becomes a strategic tool for creating lasting change, why creativity is essential for transformation, and how empathetic practice can break us out of binary thinking to build truly inclusive cultures.
Leigh shares insights from working with thousands of organizers, educators, and advocates worldwide—including at organizations like the ACLU, GLSEN, and Race Forward—on leadership development, movement strategy, and adaptive leadership.
Leigh's approach is rooted in critical analysis, meaningful relationships, creative problem-solving, and transformative change. Their impressive client roster spans values-driven organizations, Fortune 500 companies, creative and cultural institutions, and leading educational institutions. With over 25 years of experience as a Theater of the Oppressed practitioner, Leigh specializes in supporting complex dialogue and learning through emergent, participatory facilitation that incorporates interactive and embodied engagement while fostering growth, movement, and joy in the workplace.
Leigh holds an Individualized MA from NYU Gallatin, with coursework on change theory, community studies, nonprofit management, public policy, and campaign strategies.
Links:
linkedin.com/in/sleighthompson
- 00:00 Introduction to S. Leigh's work
- 01:00 Theater of the Oppressed methodology
- 04:00 Art and creativity in organizational change
- 07:00 Moving beyond binary thinking
- 09:00 Defining empathetic practice
- 15:00 Individual vs. organizational empathy work
- 18:00 How equity fits with empathetic presence
- 24:00 Can you have equity without empathy?
- 26:00 Building equitable movements and accountability
- 35:00 Why we all need this work
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence.
I'm your host Lee, and today Ihave the beautiful pleasure of
interviewing another Lee that Iknow s Lee Thompson.
Lee is a.
Organizer, a strategist, anexpert facilitator, and someone
who helps organizationstransform and become stronger,
(00:30):
more cohesive cultures whilestaying true to their core
values.
I am excited to talk to Leebecause he has over two decades
of experience helpingorganizations think about
empathetic practice, puttingempathy into strategy.
Lee has been at the forefront ofequity work before it was even
(00:52):
called DEI.
For over 25 years.
He has been building processesto help us all transform for
myself as a trans person.
Lee is someone who I havelearned from.
I imagine we are about the sameage, but I might consider him a
bit of an elder.
Someone who's helped me findmyself, given me language to
(01:13):
know myself better, and I trulybelieve that that's what they
do.
I can't wait for you to hearthis interview where we talk
about how creativity is acritical part for any change,
and that in order to createsomething different, we have to
use the power of ourimagination.
Lee also talks about howliberation is a place where we
(01:34):
all get to be fully human, whatthat means and how we have to
keep fighting for equity andsocial change until we are all
free.
As we continue to witness somuch instability and injustice
in our society, I find Lee'swords comforting.
They have the tools to move ustowards more justice and more
(01:55):
liberation,
Lee (01:57):
Lee, it's so good to be with you and get to spend some
time with you.
And I was wondering, would youtell the people listening a bit
about how you use your voice.
S. Leigh Thompson (02:08):
Absolutely Lee, it's actually really great
to be here, to get to see youand chat with you today.
I do a lot of things.
I'm a strategist, uh, I'm anexpert facilitator and a
professional coach, and aconsultant doing organizational
development, change management,equity and justice work.
I work, solo I withcollaborators, and I really work
(02:30):
with organizations and leadersto help them build more strong,
cultures and values driven work.
Lee (02:37):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about your work so much
because I know that you supportorganizations, you support
individuals, you do a lot oftheater of the oppressed work,
and I think your work is reallyimportant right now.
At a fundamental foundationallevel.
(02:58):
And can you tell us about likewhat do you actually do when
you're working with anorganization or you're
partnering with someone a bitabout your process and how the
work works?
I.
S. Leigh Thompson (03:09):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I, come to my work from avariety of different vantage
points.
You mentioned that I'm a Theaterof the Oppressed practitioner.
I've been doing that work forover 25 years now
Lee (03:24):
Wow.
S. Leigh Thompson (03:25):
it's.
It's my chief modality and it'sactually a modality that very
few people know about.
It's really helps, individualsand groups develop stronger
critical analysis and creativethinking that can help us better
understand ourselves, ourrelationships, and our groups,
and as well as interpret theworld and create more strategic
(03:46):
action that is rooted inequitable and liberatory
practice.
it's embodied, it's very somaticin practice.
and, actually, and this isprobably the reason why I like
it so much, it's a lot of fun.
it can get, just as silly as itcan get incredibly, incredibly
deep and it helps groups come toproblem solving in ways that
(04:07):
they never thought was possible,which can help, shortcut around
some of the, the challengingconversations, barriers to
dialogue or particular topicsthat have been hard to have
conversations about in the past.
The, the press can help us getto it really quickly and in fun,
and creative ways.
And so that's a, that's amodality that I use a lot in my
facilitation practice.
But as a practitioner, it'shelped me really develop my
(04:29):
critical analysis and helped mereally understand groups really
well.
and so depending on theengagement, really my first step
when I'm working with anindividual or a group of
individuals, or an, or a largerscale organization.
Uh, is to listen about whatpeople think that they need,
what, pieces of informationfolks have about what they feel
(04:51):
is, is going well and what theyfeel they could be growing at or
might be a challenge or might bejust straight up they feel is
going wrong, and help them,describe that, but also help to
listen to not only what's saidbut what's not being said.
and through my many years ofexperience, try to craft, a.
A plan that is strategic thatmeets them where they're at,
(05:13):
that actually leans into their,their skills, their talents, and
the culture of the organizationhas and what they're trying to
build, while also meeting thechallenges that they have, um,
presently and the growth that's,at the moment.
Lee (05:26):
Oh, I love that it's this listening practice and I love
that you said that Theater ofthe Oppress is your chief
modality.
And when I first learned aboutTheater of the Oppressed, I
think it was in 2006, I was atthe Lincoln Center Director's
Lab and it, it really ruinedtheater for me.
Because I was like, oh, I don'treally want to be in a
(05:48):
proscenium stage reading aplaywright's words when theater
can be this meaningful and canchallenge oppression and can
really be serving people intheir real lives, in their real
relationships and problems.
And I've, I've read that you,your work is at the intersection
(06:08):
of art and social justice andwellness and, you know.
How do you think about art inthe context of like the
organizational work that you do?
That's so interesting.
S. Leigh Thompson (06:19):
Yeah.
Creativity is a critical partfor any change.
in order for us to createsomething different, we have to
be able to imagine somethingoutside of our current
circumstances.
I.
Our ability to create, to movefrom our current circumstances
Lee (06:36):
I.
S. Leigh Thompson (06:37):
else is really dependent on the capacity
we have to imagine.
And that capacity to imagine canonly be, uh, built.
I.
By creative practices thatinvite us and encourage to think
not just about what'simmediately possible, but what
seems like it might beimpossible, and start to crash
towards that.
And when we build that muscle,then we can start to open up the
(06:59):
possibilities that are availableto us, and then think
strategically about how are wegonna choose one and move in a
direction, in a thoughtful way.
And so absolutely artisticpractice, creative practice,
getting people to open up theirminds about what the world could
look like, what theirorganization could look like,
what their own personalleadership practice could look
like, that is necessary forfolks to actually build their
(07:21):
skill beyond just the kind ofsame litany of tools that
they've already been using orbeen shuffled around
organizations for the last, manydecades.
Lee (07:30):
I am really having a reaction to the idea that change
is a creative process because inthis moment of so much change
and fear to know that, you know,creativity can serve us and that
we do need massivetransformations right now.
it's like one of the things Ilove about being trans is this
idea that we can change and whatyou said about, recognize what
(07:53):
feels impossible and then.
Look at ways to make thatpossible.
It's really, really beautiful,Lee.
S. Leigh Thompson (08:00):
Thank you.
Yeah, we, have, there's so much,About this current moment that
is actually about, um,restriction of possibilities.
We get into this, thisparticular oppositional moment,
that very much feels that, folksare really entrenched in a
belief that one group wins andone group loses, right?
(08:24):
Whatever that group might be.
And in order for me to win,somebody else has to lose
because that's what I've beentaught for so long, or we have
to do it this particular way,and that's the only way we've
ever done it.
And so we have to go back tothat way.
thinking, maybe there's a way wecan all win, that be the goal?
And just because we haven'tfound it yet doesn't mean it's
not possible.
We have to be able to reallyexpand our imagination to what
(08:45):
would it be like if everybodywas actually succeeding, if
everyone was actually fed, ifeveryone was housed, if everyone
felt good about who they were.
if nobody had to result in, inviolence or fear or.
intimidation or shame in orderto get their needs met.
but we all just actually gottafeel good and get things done.
Most of the time people willjust say it's not possible
(09:07):
because they've neverexperienced it.
And that's because ourcreativity shut down.
Uh, because when we were playingas little kids, we thought
everything was possible, but aswe got older, we.
Forgot how to play.
We forgot how to create andimagine.
And so the ability to reallycast a long line out into, the
horizon, is what allows us toactually go in a direction that
(09:29):
is really visionary andinnovative and gets us out of
the moment of, this blame,shame, guilt, and, you know,
fight and destruction mode thatwe're in right now.
Lee (09:39):
And that zero sum game is like such binary thinking, which
is so boring.
And I know that we all getcaught in this binary thinking
just because it's so default inour society.
But that's really, I think whatyou're talking about and even
like.
AI and all of these things Ithink right now are making it
harder to be imaginative and toreally let ourselves imagine,
(10:00):
and it feels like ourimagination is even being under
attack.
And we know our empathy is beingunder attack.
And I've heard you speak a bitabout empathetic practice, and
I'd love to hear what, what doyou mean by that?
S. Leigh Thompson (10:17):
when I talk about empathetic practice, I
talk about the ability, toreally connect with all of
humanity.
So, for me, empathy is beyondif, if we get into like its
core, Latin meaning, empathy isto feel the same as somebody
else, which I.
Straight up.
I don't believe it's possible.
I don't think we can believe,feel the same as somebody else
(10:38):
because we are always bringingour own histories, our own
experiences, our own, identitiesinto how we think like somebody
else.
and so, you know, for a longtime, you know, I would talk
about sympathy, feeling similarto.
Now, sympathy isn't a word thatwe usually think of as a really
great word in, in, in talkingabout, the quest for, for real
(11:02):
connection with people.
Um, it's often kind of like, eh,raise an eyebrow as if it is
somehow insincere.
empathy right now is what a lotof folks are, are.
for.
and so moving out of it sideLatin root to try to move it to
what is, how is it being usedright now?
to try to feel for right to feela connection with.
(11:24):
and for me the idea of empathyisn't about just feeling like
another person, but actuallyabout really that person as if
they are a part of self.
Then when we're connecting toall of humanity, we're
connecting to all of ourhumanity and all of the ways
that we can be human in thisworld, and therefore connecting
(11:44):
to other people the same waythat we are connecting to the
things that we want and need aswell.
which actually takes healing theself first, right?
Because it's really hard to healand connect and to support
somebody else.
if you're not able to really.
Tend to those wounds that you,carry as well.
and then at the empatheticpractice, when we're really
(12:05):
trying to, understand anotherperson, it gives us tools, it
gives us perspective to actuallybuild strategy.
And so while I look, I love, a,kumbaya moment.
I love feeling good about otherpeople.
I like that more than feeling,angry and rageful, which I spent
much of my life feeling.
my.
(12:27):
practice beyond that is actuallyabout being strategic.
What I've been seeing in my 20plus years of, of movement
strategy and organizationaldevelopment work that uh, this
moment that we are in is verymuch, uh, connected to, like you
already talked about binarythinking, right?
(12:47):
Like this oppositional approach,where folks believe that in
order to advance.
like whatever my cause might be,and I'll put that in quotes,
right?
My cause, whatever my cause, isin order to advance that I need
to take down or, fight againstthe other's.
(13:07):
Cause I need to, in order for meto win, somebody else has to
lose.
that comes with, you know, I.
other people for, misgivings,punishing people, exiling
people, you know, sequesteringpeople, ejecting people from,
organizations.
It's, we will, we'll fire them,we'll punish them, we'll
sanction them, whatever thatmight be.
(13:28):
and then because people arefearful of that, then they get
resistant because they don'twant to be punished or hurt or
harmed.
And so then there's this fightthat happens, this opposition
that's pretty strong.
and that opposition has beenbuilt in then if, because I
believe this, the other peoplebelieve this opposite thing and
they hate, and I love, right?
Like, that's kinda like therhetoric that we hear a lot.
most people who do things that Ihave deep, deep, distaste work
(13:52):
don't believe that they'rehateful people.
That's just true.
And having talked with a lot offolk, they don't believe that
they're hating people.
you know, one example that Igave this last weekend when I
was doing a workshop on, onradical empathy is, I worked
with, uh, queer young people fora very long time.
and when some family memberswould punish their children for
(14:15):
coming out.
Those family members didn'tbelieve that they didn't hate
their children, right?
they believed that they weredoing this really hard thing
that they had to do because theyloved their children and they
disagreed with their choiceright now, again, not anything.
I agree with it.
And also if I just, uh, focusedon the outcome and say that, oh,
(14:38):
because the outcome is hurtful,you must hate your child.
And then I engage that parentaround the idea of how much they
hate their child.
Lee (14:46):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (14:47):
because they have no way of understanding
that.
'cause that's not theirmotivation.
They're gonna think that I'm.
Not that I don't understand,which is actually true, I'm
performing that I don'tunderstand.
And so they're not gonna listento me either.
Even if, I give suggestions ofhow they can do something
better, if I connect to the lovethey have for their child and
help them to understand howthey're the way that they're
performing, love is harmful,then I'm actually connecting
(15:09):
with empathy.
'cause I can understand thatthey love their child, I can
understand that this parentdeserves love, happiness,
safety, and security just asmuch as their child deserves.
Love, happiness, safety, andsecurity.
I can connect to both like thoseand, and just as much as I think
that I deserve love, happiness,safety, security, then if we can
(15:32):
connect on that piece, then wecan actually strategically
start, make decisions.
What is the best way to supportthem in getting what they
actually want to support theirchild?
That doesn't have violentoutcomes, that doesn't hurt,
that doesn't harm inorganizational development work.
Similarly, when I'm working withorganizations to say, if we are
looking at this leader, this,uh, this policy that we're
(15:56):
trying to pass, whatever it isas a thing that we're fighting
against, rather than what arethe things that we can actually,
how can we support getting ourneeds met by really
understanding.
What the other side?
Other side.
I put that again in quotes'causeI don't wanna be istic, but what
this other, well, I believe tobe an oppositional positioner
side wants and needs and helpthem find a way to get it that
(16:18):
doesn't invest in domination,destruction, and harm.
but you have to, the only wayyou can do that is by practicing
and it's a muscle that takestime to build.
I've dealt, developed, you know,workshop practice to.
Structure out how you can buildthat muscle, and then how you
can go from that empathetic, um,understanding into strategic
(16:41):
action that helps you get yourneeds met.
Lee (16:45):
It's really beautiful to hear empathy and strategy paired
together.
I think that we don't associatethose two words together and you
helping us practice empathy andlearn how to make it strategic
is really, really helpful andtangible.
And it also makes me wonder, doyou notice any differences in
empathetic practice betweenworking with someone on a
(17:06):
personal issue versus aprofessional, uh, an individual
versus an organization?
Is it always the same practice?
S. Leigh Thompson (17:14):
Hmm, that's a great question.
it's not always the samepractice.
that, an individual has moremovement and capacity to do
something on their own.
whereas as an organization ismade up of a lot of individuals
as well as institutionalized andcodified policies, procedures,
um, both which are formalizedand also informalized and a
(17:36):
larger culture that, that you'retrying to craft, it's possible.
within organizations it looksdifferent, but, uh, individuals
are dealing with, a lot of, The,traces of institutionalized
policies and procedures withinthem.
but at the same time,
Lee (17:55):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (17:56):
uh, able to move, with some more, with more
deftly, uh, than, anorganization often can.
I don't see it as significantlydifferent on a personal versus
a, a work level, um, withindividuals.
However, that, uh, the thingsthat we, that I seen folks.
(18:18):
Holding, um, that are, uh,challenges, barriers to actually
building empathy.
Um, whether it be for, somebodythat they're trying to move or
influence professionally orpeople in their own lives that
they're struggling tounderstand.
the building, the practice isfairly similar.
(18:40):
and building that lens is fairlysimilar.
and then the question, the scarsactually weirdly enough or.
Fairly similar as well, becauseevery single relationship we
hold is gonna be shaped by therelationships we've had
previous.
And so a lot of people'spersonal relationships, whether
it be with somebody that they'veknown for a long time or someone
fairly recently are actuallytracking back to.
(19:02):
The harms that they'veexperienced much, much, longer
ago, just as people in theprofessional world are going to
react to other people based onrelationships and interactions
they've had, not just from thatindividual, but the things
they've been holding for a verylong time.
And so all of those are cominginto the conversation just as
they come in actually to everyconversation we ever hold,
whether or not we're consciousof it or not.
(19:23):
we just, my, my aim is to, youknow, help people build that
critical analysis that'snecessary and they really have
to see.
much beyond the habits and thebeha and the the, tr, you know,
traditional and, and,familiarized behaviors.
and start to.
all of the pieces that make itup and then start to take it
(19:45):
apart and then make decisionsintentionally.
That's when I talk aboutstrategic, it's like I want
folks to make intentionaldecisions, not just passive
decisions, and think that otherthings aren't possible.
Not that the tools that are justlaid around our feet, which are
usually tools of domination anddisruption, but instead find the
tools that again, we haven'tfound yet because we're looking
at the world a different way.
And so the empathetic practiceis a piece just looking at the
(20:07):
world a different way.
And then making choices that areintentional, that hopefully are
getting us closer to theoutcomes that we desire.
Lee (20:15):
Yeah, incredibly powerful and.
It also just makes me think ofequity, and I am hearing you
talk about empathy, and wecertainly can see a huge lack of
empathy in terms of equity andliberation in this moment,
right?
These words are being attackedand vilified, and so how does
(20:35):
equity fit in with empatheticpresence?
S. Leigh Thompson (20:39):
Yeah.
e equity is a, is a word that Ihave.
That I have connected with andhas been centralized in my
practice for a very long time.
And as a person who's been doingwork that's kind of like in the
realm of justice and liberationfor, 25 years, I.
(21:00):
that, uh, the, equity is aboutgetting what they need.
Um, and those things aredifferent, and, particularly in
relationship to the, not justwhat they need, I.
particular moment, but thingsthat they need in response to
the ways in which harms havetraditionally, historically and
(21:21):
presently, how those haveactually impacted folks.
one example I used to give allthe time in, in, in workshops
was, we're having a pizza partyat, work and we have pizzas for
every, and there's enough foreverybody to have one slice of
pizza, it's kind of a stingypizza party, to be honest.
But here we are.
Everyone has one slice of pizza.
(21:44):
That the, you know, the equalitymodel is every single person
gets one piece of pizza.
So Lee, you get one piece ofpizza, I get one piece of pizza.
Fred gets one piece of pizza.
and Fred's family owns a pizzacompany.
They have pizza everywhere.
They had, they actually alreadyhad pizza for lunch.
They're not really hungry forpizza.
They're fridges filled withpizza at home.
But Fred still gets a piecewhereas.
(22:07):
That doesn't necessarily seemfair, but it's fair.
If you talk about equality, it'snot fair in terms of equity.
Meanwhile, Lee, maybe you'dhaven't eaten that day and
you're really hungry.
Maybe your fridge is prettyempty.
Maybe you haven't eaten in acouple of days, but you still
just get one piece, So that theequality model, every single one
of us gets one piece regardless,and the equity is to name that.
(22:27):
maybe Fred's like, you knowwhat?
I'm not hungry.
Lee had my piece.
Boom, that's equity right there.
Lee needs an extra slice rightnow, Lee's a little extra
hungry.
Lee gets an extra piece.
The, when we're talking aboutequity at this moment, we're,
it's getting all wrapped up inthis, uh, in a, on a political,
moment.
(22:47):
And the word itself actuallydoesn't really matter.
That practice
Lee (22:51):
Yeah, definitely.
S. Leigh Thompson (22:53):
how are we actually showing up to say like,
Hey, you, you need a littleextra boost right now.
I'm gonna get, I don't need it.
I actually don't need it.
Here you go.
Now we've been, in the UnitedStates, we've been raised on
this concept of fairness.
And fairness is, we've beentaught is this equality model
that everyone still gets apiece.
Well, that's not fair.
Why does league get an extrapiece?
I don't get extra ps.
Yeah, that's, that may not seemfair on the very, very surface.
(23:17):
if we're just looking at howthings play out at that pizza
party and everybody walks intothat room and Fred has no pizza
on their plate, and you have twopieces, Fred might say, that's
not fair.
Because often our, our approachto equity hasn't ever been
around getting people to buy into what they need and what
they're giving up will itwillingly.
(23:39):
And so, and we often haven'tbeen, you know, we're talking
about large societies.
We're well beyond a pizza partywhen we're talking about, you
know, the United States muchless the, the global community.
How we build a larger culture toactually show up for our needs
are different, and that's okay.
(23:59):
And we don't need to just haveall the pizza.
We, the way that we're, when wehave it, when we're building an
empathetic practice, it actuallyhelps us really care for what
the other people need.
Lee (24:15):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (24:15):
a reason why it's under attack.
It's because it is veryeffective to invite people to
share rather than own.
and when we invest in peoplesharing rather than owning,
that's a, dig on.
That's, not a dig on.
That is something thatchallenges the core of
capitalism itself.
Capitalism
Lee (24:32):
Exactly.
S. Leigh Thompson (24:32):
money on, its on its core.
It's about ownership.
It's about restricting, it'sabout being able to hold
something rather than somethingbeing the will or the collective
of the people.
And, What I know is that peoplemay feel some sort of success by
owning more, but I almost alwayssee, and I mean I work with some
real rich people to be real attimes, not exclusively right,
(24:54):
but I've worked with some realrich people that people are
happier when they share.
I.
And so if people are happierwhen they share, and can we
build, cultures and communitiesand organizations and
relationships where we'reactually just like, yeah, we're
good.
We don't need to balance thingsout.
They don't need to be balanced.
We just need to make sure thatwe're actually feeling good
(25:15):
about how we're showing up, howI'm showing up and what we all
have, and making sure that atthe very, very least, nobody is.
That everyone is able to behealthy, happy, safe, and
secure.
and when we have those things,then everything beyond that is
gravy.
Lee (25:31):
Yeah, it's almost impossible when it's a zero sum
game, which is why capitalism isdesigned that way.
But my question for you, this,is fascinating by the way.
I love the way that you thinkabout this work.
I think it's so important rightnow, but can you have equity
without empathy then?
S. Leigh Thompson (25:55):
we can have the result, we can have similar
results without but I don'tthink we're ever gonna actually
get to it.
No.
'cause folks having, gettingwhat they need, I.
That on, like, if we look atthat as like a, an exchange of
things, right?
If we go back into that, likeaccounting, Yeah, folks can get
(26:15):
what they need to some extent,but actually buying in and
actually investing on what dopeople need versus what do they
want, what feels like, uh, fairor unfair that requires empathy
to be able to actually even dothat work.
And so is it foundationalpractice in order for us to get
to the place of, Equity, whichgets us to the place of
liberation, right?
Liberation is a place where weall get to be fully human and we
(26:38):
do not have to, um, uh, wherevalue is not contingent on any
characteristic.
but we actually get, to justlive not, you know, people said
the word free before and I'mvery cautious not to say free,
but people get to live fully infully human lives.
which means we have access tothings, to, to.
(27:02):
that are available to us, whilestill being responsive and
caring to the others around us.
And if we're not in relationshipwith hu other human beings in a
way that is right and just, andcaring, then we're not actually
fully human.
There's a reason why we're,we're social, a social, uh,
species is because we.
We want to be in connection.
(27:22):
And so if we're creatingdividing lines between us and
other people, then we're notfully human either.
So liberation is a place wherewe're fully human, where we have
full connections with otherpeople.
We have to be able to understandself and other in relationship
with each other as opposed tothat dividing line of binary, us
versus them, me versus you, um,self and other, but said, we're
(27:42):
all part of this together, thatrequires empathy to make it
happen.
Lee (27:46):
Liberation is a place where we are fully human.
Yes, And you know, I have somuch hope for the organizing
that's happening all over thiscountry.
For people using their voices.
And yet you mentioned movementstrategy and thinking about
(28:07):
liberatory spaces and socialimpact spaces and how much
conflict there is in so many ofthese spaces, let alone, you
know, really any space.
But how do we build movementsthat are equitable, that are
liberatory, and how do we holdeach other accountable when we
have internal disagreement?
S. Leigh Thompson (28:29):
it's not easy, because we all, I, I'll be
cautious not to say all.
the, vast majority of us havebeen steeped in a culture that
says, criticism is, is,dangerous because criticism
leads to punishment, exile,destruction, et cetera.
'cause that's what.
Has happened to us and we'veseen that happen to other
(28:50):
people.
and so, you know, to be in aplace where folks can actually
have, organizations havecultures of curiosity, um, and
are able to provide critical andloving feedback to each other,
um, that doesn't feelthreatening, that takes a while
to develop.
And across organizations we'redealing with different cultures,
(29:12):
right?
Because each organization hasits own unique culture.
It's both in its field, but alsolike where they're at in the
world and also what their work,just their workplace culture is,
who's actually making it up?
the, body of the organization,the constituency, et cetera.
but across these organizations,folks don't agree on what we're
supposed to be doing.
(29:33):
and, often that thosedisagreements go into, the
finger wagging, blame, shaming,guilt pieces.
I, you know, first off, Ibelieve that, you know, we have
to move beyond, like what in, inour movements, there's, there's
not going to be a one right way.
There just isn't.
We have to take that, off the,shelf and instead say there's a
(29:56):
lot of ways to move forward.
What am I uniquely positioned todo, and what's the strategic
opportunity available?
This is what, you know, I walkall of my, my clients through
this, this question, what areyou uniquely positioned to do?
Is what are you, what are yourskills?
What are your talents?
What are your capacities?
What are your positionalitiesand relationships that you are
holding, um, that feel, uh,important?
(30:19):
Um, those things, all of thethings.
What do you have the energy todo or the resources to do?
that's your uniquepositionality.
And then there's a strategicopportunity within those fields,
within those things that you'reholding that perhaps you can
engage at that moment.
And that's gonna be differentbased on what your unique
positionality is and what'savailable to you, where you are,
(30:40):
what the moment is.
So each group may be actuallyhaving to do different things,
um, and understand that thereisn't just one right way.
So one of the things that Ioften get, one of my roles often
is in spaces that often are alittle bit more incremental.
Lee (30:58):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (30:59):
to shift, asking for policy changes, you
know, helping do training andculture shifts.
And some of those things aresmaller practices, even though
there are violences that arehappening right now that are
causing death and destructionfor communities globally.
But definitely right here, notonly in the world, but in my own
hometown, right?
and so, like incrementalism,isn't going to meet the needs of
(31:22):
the person who's under fire
Lee (31:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (31:26):
I.
I, and there are people who aretrying to stop people who are
under fire right now today, andthey need something fast.
Lee (31:36):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (31:37):
and fast movements usually don't get
buy-in.
Except for in some situations,in some circumstances, we can
talk about that another time.
But, but most of the time, fast,you know, stop this right now,
that is it literally anoppositional stance.
and so that's not going todevelop buy-in, but it may stop
the behavior, but it may notstop the culture where the
(31:59):
behavior isn't going toreplicate down the road.
and so with that.
We have technology that both ofthose strategies actually need
to happen.
Like I need somebody to be thereto say, stop this violence right
now, and I need the cultures ofpeople who are told to stop this
right now are also learning howto build the practice so that
(32:21):
way they never go back and putsomebody under a fire again.
Stopping that one time isn'tgoing to help the next time
unless we are building thosepractices.
so we need any, we need to beempathetic about the, any and
all fronts.
This work needs to happen.
I, I'll tell my client, or I'lltell people often that like, I
actually really benefit fromhaving people outside the
building saying, you know, with,with I, I see this.
(32:45):
To be silly, but with pitchforksand torches saying, you know,
like, because when that, whenpeople are outside with
pitchforks and torches and I'mlike, Hey, don't you think it'd
be nice to get outta here?
'cause I think they might burnthe building down.
We should go and get the buy-inabout leaving and vacating
before anything happens.
But having folks put fire underthe cause can help.
(33:05):
The rest of us who are doingthat incremental work actually
have the energy and.
The opportunity to coax people,to change.
'cause change isn't easy folks.
Rarely embrace it or enjoy it.
Um, and so because of that, weneed it, we need a lot of
motivation to go through change.
(33:26):
and that motivation, I, if it'sjust like fear of, you know,
litigation or some sort of likepolitical impetus, it's not the
greatest, but if it can bebecause folks actually are
building these tools to care,building the practice to, to
understand why the change ishelpful, and then building the
skills.
The muscle to just understandthat change is constant.
So let's just start to feel itand know it.
(33:47):
then they can move a little bitmore swiftly in it.
And then just last to say onthat, that, when we talk about
organizations, kind of in theseinfighting moments, that we,
really have to think about, arethe things that we have in
alignment and can we just reallysupport each other on that?
And that's part of thatempathetic practice again, is
(34:08):
even it's hard to see what arethe pace places of alignment and
then can we support in buildingthe, conditions where we get
that.
foundational work hasn'thappened a long time around
equity and justice work.
Um, folks have been doing toplevel and, and when DEI put that
in quotes, became a a anindustry, while
Lee (34:27):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (34:27):
work has happened for decades and decades
and decades, right?
Like
Lee (34:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (34:31):
work be before DEI work letters.
but I.
When DEI became an industry, itbe much of it was in, this is
how you don't get sued, this ishow you don't get, um, this is
how HR policies that you create,et cetera, et cetera.
But not about like how do yousupport your.
The culture of your, um, of yourstaff to think differently about
(34:54):
each other and about themselves.
How do you get them to not feelin competition with each other,
where they have to, you know,feel like they're fighting all
the time?
How do you actually build a,community of care where that
even if someone is let go,they're not gonna wanna sue you?
'cause they straight up knowthat you're trying your best and
they care about you too.
Right?
Those are radical, you know,radically.
(35:17):
Transformative spaces to work.
I've worked in such a space inthe past and I've helped create
them since.
but folks don't think it'spossible and so they just stay
in these places of competition.
so when we build thosefoundational, understanding,
empathy being one of thosepractices, then folks can have
the tools that they need todevelop policies and procedures
and practices that actually arerooted in these more liberatory,
(35:39):
uh, approaches.
Lee (35:41):
I can see why it's so important to have someone who's
external to the organization andyou being an external
facilitator and consultant, Ican see how important that is
just for helping people even getto that place.
And you know, it really comesfull circle of thinking about
like change as a creativeprocess.
And there is no one size fitsall.
(36:01):
And even that, gives me.
Hope and clarity, and I'm reallygrateful, Lee, that you have a
practice around this, that youhave a process to lead us
through and organizationsthrough, because boy, do we need
it right now.
S. Leigh Thompson (36:18):
Yeah.
And we need it.
I, I would say we've alwaysneeded it.
We need it all the time.
And right now we're seeing whyit's been needed.
We're seeing the, the worst partof it.
And even when things seem to bea little bit more copacetic, we
still need to be doing it, untilwe reach liberation where
everyone just kind of gets, getseverything that we need and want
all at the same time.
Like, we should always go begoing towards how do we become
(36:38):
better?
so when this part of the work isdone, there will always be more
to do.
Change is that constant piece.
We're just gonna keep growing,keep building, and the only time
that you know that you havefailed is when you're not moving
in the direction of thatliberatory vision.
so yeah, we always need it atall times.
Right now we're in a really hardspot.
(37:01):
we're feeling a lot of painpoints.
There's a lot of hurt and harmin the world.
And I'm also saying that a lotof the people who are the
pronators of the destructionthat we are experiencing right
now also are experiencing, haveexperienced a lot of hurt and
harm in the world.
Lee (37:14):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (37:15):
they are results of trauma and
generational trauma that hastaught them that the only way to
be a human being is to cutthemselves off from other human
beings and to hurt other people.
And that's a really sadexistence to live as well.
We all need it.
you know, this is an opportunityfor us to kind of continue to
try to get it not throughfighting at each other, but
(37:36):
actually bringing each other in.
Lee (37:38):
We all need it and I'm really grateful for you to be
able to see that and to help ussee it.
And I'm so grateful for thisconversation and to be your
friend and to learn from you.
Thank you, Lee.
S. Leigh Thompson (37:51):
Same.
Thank you so much for this, thisconversation.
I really appreciate it and foreverything that you'd continue
to do, to lift up the what makespeople, the best of who they
are, and to feel better abouthow they share their voice and
how they show up in the world.
Lee (38:04):
Thank you my friend.
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence.
I'm your host Lee, and today Ihave the beautiful pleasure of
interviewing another Lee that Iknow s Lee Thompson.
Lee is a.
Organizer, a strategist, anexpert facilitator, and someone
who helps organizationstransform and become stronger,
(00:30):
more cohesive cultures whilestaying true to their core
values.
I am excited to talk to Leebecause he has over two decades
of experience helpingorganizations think about
empathetic practice, puttingempathy into strategy.
Lee has been at the forefront ofequity work before it was even
(00:52):
called DEI.
For over 25 years.
He has been building processesto help us all transform for
myself as a trans person.
Lee is someone who I havelearned from.
I imagine we are about the sameage, but I might consider him a
bit of an elder.
Someone who's helped me findmyself, given me language to
(01:13):
know myself better, and I trulybelieve that that's what they
do.
I can't wait for you to hearthis interview where we talk
about how creativity is acritical part for any change,
and that in order to createsomething different, we have to
use the power of ourimagination.
Lee also talks about howliberation is a place where we
(01:34):
all get to be fully human, whatthat means and how we have to
keep fighting for equity andsocial change until we are all
free.
As we continue to witness somuch instability and injustice
in our society, I find Lee'swords comforting.
They have the tools to move ustowards more justice and more
(01:55):
liberation,
Lee (01:57):
Lee, it's so good to be with you and get to spend some
time with you.
And I was wondering, would youtell the people listening a bit
about how you use your voice.
S. Leigh Thompson (02:08):
Absolutely Lee, it's actually really great
to be here, to get to see youand chat with you today.
I do a lot of things.
I'm a strategist, uh, I'm anexpert facilitator and a
professional coach, and aconsultant doing organizational
development, change management,equity and justice work.
I work, solo I withcollaborators, and I really work
(02:30):
with organizations and leadersto help them build more strong,
cultures and values driven work.
Lee (02:37):
Yeah, and I've been thinking about your work so much
because I know that you supportorganizations, you support
individuals, you do a lot oftheater of the oppressed work,
and I think your work is reallyimportant right now.
At a fundamental foundationallevel.
(02:58):
And can you tell us about likewhat do you actually do when
you're working with anorganization or you're
partnering with someone a bitabout your process and how the
work works?
I.
S. Leigh Thompson (03:09):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I, come to my work from avariety of different vantage
points.
You mentioned that I'm a Theaterof the Oppressed practitioner.
I've been doing that work forover 25 years now
Lee (03:24):
Wow.
S. Leigh Thompson (03:25):
it's.
It's my chief modality and it'sactually a modality that very
few people know about.
It's really helps, individualsand groups develop stronger
critical analysis and creativethinking that can help us better
understand ourselves, ourrelationships, and our groups,
and as well as interpret theworld and create more strategic
(03:46):
action that is rooted inequitable and liberatory
practice.
it's embodied, it's very somaticin practice.
and, actually, and this isprobably the reason why I like
it so much, it's a lot of fun.
it can get, just as silly as itcan get incredibly, incredibly
deep and it helps groups come toproblem solving in ways that
(04:07):
they never thought was possible,which can help, shortcut around
some of the, the challengingconversations, barriers to
dialogue or particular topicsthat have been hard to have
conversations about in the past.
The, the press can help us getto it really quickly and in fun,
and creative ways.
And so that's a, that's amodality that I use a lot in my
facilitation practice.
But as a practitioner, it'shelped me really develop my
(04:29):
critical analysis and helped mereally understand groups really
well.
and so depending on theengagement, really my first step
when I'm working with anindividual or a group of
individuals, or an, or a largerscale organization.
Uh, is to listen about whatpeople think that they need,
what, pieces of informationfolks have about what they feel
(04:51):
is, is going well and what theyfeel they could be growing at or
might be a challenge or might bejust straight up they feel is
going wrong, and help them,describe that, but also help to
listen to not only what's saidbut what's not being said.
and through my many years ofexperience, try to craft, a.
A plan that is strategic thatmeets them where they're at,
(05:13):
that actually leans into their,their skills, their talents, and
the culture of the organizationhas and what they're trying to
build, while also meeting thechallenges that they have, um,
presently and the growth that's,at the moment.
Lee (05:26):
Oh, I love that it's this listening practice and I love
that you said that Theater ofthe Oppress is your chief
modality.
And when I first learned aboutTheater of the Oppressed, I
think it was in 2006, I was atthe Lincoln Center Director's
Lab and it, it really ruinedtheater for me.
Because I was like, oh, I don'treally want to be in a
(05:48):
proscenium stage reading aplaywright's words when theater
can be this meaningful and canchallenge oppression and can
really be serving people intheir real lives, in their real
relationships and problems.
And I've, I've read that you,your work is at the intersection
(06:08):
of art and social justice andwellness and, you know.
How do you think about art inthe context of like the
organizational work that you do?
That's so interesting.
S. Leigh Thompson (06:19):
Yeah.
Creativity is a critical partfor any change.
in order for us to createsomething different, we have to
be able to imagine somethingoutside of our current
circumstances.
I.
Our ability to create, to movefrom our current circumstances
Lee (06:36):
I.
S. Leigh Thompson (06:37):
else is really dependent on the capacity
we have to imagine.
And that capacity to imagine canonly be, uh, built.
I.
By creative practices thatinvite us and encourage to think
not just about what'simmediately possible, but what
seems like it might beimpossible, and start to crash
towards that.
And when we build that muscle,then we can start to open up the
(06:59):
possibilities that are availableto us, and then think
strategically about how are wegonna choose one and move in a
direction, in a thoughtful way.
And so absolutely artisticpractice, creative practice,
getting people to open up theirminds about what the world could
look like, what theirorganization could look like,
what their own personalleadership practice could look
like, that is necessary forfolks to actually build their
(07:21):
skill beyond just the kind ofsame litany of tools that
they've already been using orbeen shuffled around
organizations for the last, manydecades.
Lee (07:30):
I am really having a reaction to the idea that change
is a creative process because inthis moment of so much change
and fear to know that, you know,creativity can serve us and that
we do need massivetransformations right now.
it's like one of the things Ilove about being trans is this
idea that we can change and whatyou said about, recognize what
(07:53):
feels impossible and then.
Look at ways to make thatpossible.
It's really, really beautiful,Lee.
S. Leigh Thompson (08:00):
Thank you.
Yeah, we, have, there's so much,About this current moment that
is actually about, um,restriction of possibilities.
We get into this, thisparticular oppositional moment,
that very much feels that, folksare really entrenched in a
belief that one group wins andone group loses, right?
(08:24):
Whatever that group might be.
And in order for me to win,somebody else has to lose
because that's what I've beentaught for so long, or we have
to do it this particular way,and that's the only way we've
ever done it.
And so we have to go back tothat way.
thinking, maybe there's a way wecan all win, that be the goal?
And just because we haven'tfound it yet doesn't mean it's
not possible.
We have to be able to reallyexpand our imagination to what
(08:45):
would it be like if everybodywas actually succeeding, if
everyone was actually fed, ifeveryone was housed, if everyone
felt good about who they were.
if nobody had to result in, inviolence or fear or.
intimidation or shame in orderto get their needs met.
but we all just actually gottafeel good and get things done.
Most of the time people willjust say it's not possible
(09:07):
because they've neverexperienced it.
And that's because ourcreativity shut down.
Uh, because when we were playingas little kids, we thought
everything was possible, but aswe got older, we.
Forgot how to play.
We forgot how to create andimagine.
And so the ability to reallycast a long line out into, the
horizon, is what allows us toactually go in a direction that
(09:29):
is really visionary andinnovative and gets us out of
the moment of, this blame,shame, guilt, and, you know,
fight and destruction mode thatwe're in right now.
Lee (09:39):
And that zero sum game is like such binary thinking, which
is so boring.
And I know that we all getcaught in this binary thinking
just because it's so default inour society.
But that's really, I think whatyou're talking about and even
like.
AI and all of these things Ithink right now are making it
harder to be imaginative and toreally let ourselves imagine,
(10:00):
and it feels like ourimagination is even being under
attack.
And we know our empathy is beingunder attack.
And I've heard you speak a bitabout empathetic practice, and
I'd love to hear what, what doyou mean by that?
S. Leigh Thompson (10:17):
when I talk about empathetic practice, I
talk about the ability, toreally connect with all of
humanity.
So, for me, empathy is beyondif, if we get into like its
core, Latin meaning, empathy isto feel the same as somebody
else, which I.
Straight up.
I don't believe it's possible.
I don't think we can believe,feel the same as somebody else
(10:38):
because we are always bringingour own histories, our own
experiences, our own, identitiesinto how we think like somebody
else.
and so, you know, for a longtime, you know, I would talk
about sympathy, feeling similarto.
Now, sympathy isn't a word thatwe usually think of as a really
great word in, in, in talkingabout, the quest for, for real
(11:02):
connection with people.
Um, it's often kind of like, eh,raise an eyebrow as if it is
somehow insincere.
empathy right now is what a lotof folks are, are.
for.
and so moving out of it sideLatin root to try to move it to
what is, how is it being usedright now?
to try to feel for right to feela connection with.
(11:24):
and for me the idea of empathyisn't about just feeling like
another person, but actuallyabout really that person as if
they are a part of self.
Then when we're connecting toall of humanity, we're
connecting to all of ourhumanity and all of the ways
that we can be human in thisworld, and therefore connecting
(11:44):
to other people the same waythat we are connecting to the
things that we want and need aswell.
which actually takes healing theself first, right?
Because it's really hard to healand connect and to support
somebody else.
if you're not able to really.
Tend to those wounds that you,carry as well.
and then at the empatheticpractice, when we're really
(12:05):
trying to, understand anotherperson, it gives us tools, it
gives us perspective to actuallybuild strategy.
And so while I look, I love, a,kumbaya moment.
I love feeling good about otherpeople.
I like that more than feeling,angry and rageful, which I spent
much of my life feeling.
my.
(12:27):
practice beyond that is actuallyabout being strategic.
What I've been seeing in my 20plus years of, of movement
strategy and organizationaldevelopment work that uh, this
moment that we are in is verymuch, uh, connected to, like you
already talked about binarythinking, right?
(12:47):
Like this oppositional approach,where folks believe that in
order to advance.
like whatever my cause might be,and I'll put that in quotes,
right?
My cause, whatever my cause, isin order to advance that I need
to take down or, fight againstthe other's.
(13:07):
Cause I need to, in order for meto win, somebody else has to
lose.
that comes with, you know, I.
other people for, misgivings,punishing people, exiling
people, you know, sequesteringpeople, ejecting people from,
organizations.
It's, we will, we'll fire them,we'll punish them, we'll
sanction them, whatever thatmight be.
(13:28):
and then because people arefearful of that, then they get
resistant because they don'twant to be punished or hurt or
harmed.
And so then there's this fightthat happens, this opposition
that's pretty strong.
and that opposition has beenbuilt in then if, because I
believe this, the other peoplebelieve this opposite thing and
they hate, and I love, right?
Like, that's kinda like therhetoric that we hear a lot.
most people who do things that Ihave deep, deep, distaste work
(13:52):
don't believe that they'rehateful people.
That's just true.
And having talked with a lot offolk, they don't believe that
they're hating people.
you know, one example that Igave this last weekend when I
was doing a workshop on, onradical empathy is, I worked
with, uh, queer young people fora very long time.
and when some family memberswould punish their children for
(14:15):
coming out.
Those family members didn'tbelieve that they didn't hate
their children, right?
they believed that they weredoing this really hard thing
that they had to do because theyloved their children and they
disagreed with their choiceright now, again, not anything.
I agree with it.
And also if I just, uh, focusedon the outcome and say that, oh,
(14:38):
because the outcome is hurtful,you must hate your child.
And then I engage that parentaround the idea of how much they
hate their child.
Lee (14:46):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (14:47):
because they have no way of understanding
that.
'cause that's not theirmotivation.
They're gonna think that I'm.
Not that I don't understand,which is actually true, I'm
performing that I don'tunderstand.
And so they're not gonna listento me either.
Even if, I give suggestions ofhow they can do something
better, if I connect to the lovethey have for their child and
help them to understand howthey're the way that they're
performing, love is harmful,then I'm actually connecting
(15:09):
with empathy.
'cause I can understand thatthey love their child, I can
understand that this parentdeserves love, happiness,
safety, and security just asmuch as their child deserves.
Love, happiness, safety, andsecurity.
I can connect to both like thoseand, and just as much as I think
that I deserve love, happiness,safety, security, then if we can
(15:32):
connect on that piece, then wecan actually strategically
start, make decisions.
What is the best way to supportthem in getting what they
actually want to support theirchild?
That doesn't have violentoutcomes, that doesn't hurt,
that doesn't harm inorganizational development work.
Similarly, when I'm working withorganizations to say, if we are
looking at this leader, this,uh, this policy that we're
(15:56):
trying to pass, whatever it isas a thing that we're fighting
against, rather than what arethe things that we can actually,
how can we support getting ourneeds met by really
understanding.
What the other side?
Other side.
I put that again in quotes'causeI don't wanna be istic, but what
this other, well, I believe tobe an oppositional positioner
side wants and needs and helpthem find a way to get it that
(16:18):
doesn't invest in domination,destruction, and harm.
but you have to, the only wayyou can do that is by practicing
and it's a muscle that takestime to build.
I've dealt, developed, you know,workshop practice to.
Structure out how you can buildthat muscle, and then how you
can go from that empathetic, um,understanding into strategic
(16:41):
action that helps you get yourneeds met.
Lee (16:45):
It's really beautiful to hear empathy and strategy paired
together.
I think that we don't associatethose two words together and you
helping us practice empathy andlearn how to make it strategic
is really, really helpful andtangible.
And it also makes me wonder, doyou notice any differences in
empathetic practice betweenworking with someone on a
(17:06):
personal issue versus aprofessional, uh, an individual
versus an organization?
Is it always the same practice?
S. Leigh Thompson (17:14):
Hmm, that's a great question.
it's not always the samepractice.
that, an individual has moremovement and capacity to do
something on their own.
whereas as an organization ismade up of a lot of individuals
as well as institutionalized andcodified policies, procedures,
um, both which are formalizedand also informalized and a
(17:36):
larger culture that, that you'retrying to craft, it's possible.
within organizations it looksdifferent, but, uh, individuals
are dealing with, a lot of, The,traces of institutionalized
policies and procedures withinthem.
but at the same time,
Lee (17:55):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (17:56):
uh, able to move, with some more, with more
deftly, uh, than, anorganization often can.
I don't see it as significantlydifferent on a personal versus
a, a work level, um, withindividuals.
However, that, uh, the thingsthat we, that I seen folks.
(18:18):
Holding, um, that are, uh,challenges, barriers to actually
building empathy.
Um, whether it be for, somebodythat they're trying to move or
influence professionally orpeople in their own lives that
they're struggling tounderstand.
the building, the practice isfairly similar.
(18:40):
and building that lens is fairlysimilar.
and then the question, the scarsactually weirdly enough or.
Fairly similar as well, becauseevery single relationship we
hold is gonna be shaped by therelationships we've had
previous.
And so a lot of people'spersonal relationships, whether
it be with somebody that they'veknown for a long time or someone
fairly recently are actuallytracking back to.
(19:02):
The harms that they'veexperienced much, much, longer
ago, just as people in theprofessional world are going to
react to other people based onrelationships and interactions
they've had, not just from thatindividual, but the things
they've been holding for a verylong time.
And so all of those are cominginto the conversation just as
they come in actually to everyconversation we ever hold,
whether or not we're consciousof it or not.
(19:23):
we just, my, my aim is to, youknow, help people build that
critical analysis that'snecessary and they really have
to see.
much beyond the habits and thebeha and the the, tr, you know,
traditional and, and,familiarized behaviors.
and start to.
all of the pieces that make itup and then start to take it
(19:45):
apart and then make decisionsintentionally.
That's when I talk aboutstrategic, it's like I want
folks to make intentionaldecisions, not just passive
decisions, and think that otherthings aren't possible.
Not that the tools that are justlaid around our feet, which are
usually tools of domination anddisruption, but instead find the
tools that again, we haven'tfound yet because we're looking
at the world a different way.
And so the empathetic practiceis a piece just looking at the
(20:07):
world a different way.
And then making choices that areintentional, that hopefully are
getting us closer to theoutcomes that we desire.
Lee (20:15):
Yeah, incredibly powerful and.
It also just makes me think ofequity, and I am hearing you
talk about empathy, and wecertainly can see a huge lack of
empathy in terms of equity andliberation in this moment,
right?
These words are being attackedand vilified, and so how does
(20:35):
equity fit in with empatheticpresence?
S. Leigh Thompson (20:39):
Yeah.
e equity is a, is a word that Ihave.
That I have connected with andhas been centralized in my
practice for a very long time.
And as a person who's been doingwork that's kind of like in the
realm of justice and liberationfor, 25 years, I.
(21:00):
that, uh, the, equity is aboutgetting what they need.
Um, and those things aredifferent, and, particularly in
relationship to the, not justwhat they need, I.
particular moment, but thingsthat they need in response to
the ways in which harms havetraditionally, historically and
(21:21):
presently, how those haveactually impacted folks.
one example I used to give allthe time in, in, in workshops
was, we're having a pizza partyat, work and we have pizzas for
every, and there's enough foreverybody to have one slice of
pizza, it's kind of a stingypizza party, to be honest.
But here we are.
Everyone has one slice of pizza.
(21:44):
That the, you know, the equalitymodel is every single person
gets one piece of pizza.
So Lee, you get one piece ofpizza, I get one piece of pizza.
Fred gets one piece of pizza.
and Fred's family owns a pizzacompany.
They have pizza everywhere.
They had, they actually alreadyhad pizza for lunch.
They're not really hungry forpizza.
They're fridges filled withpizza at home.
But Fred still gets a piecewhereas.
(22:07):
That doesn't necessarily seemfair, but it's fair.
If you talk about equality, it'snot fair in terms of equity.
Meanwhile, Lee, maybe you'dhaven't eaten that day and
you're really hungry.
Maybe your fridge is prettyempty.
Maybe you haven't eaten in acouple of days, but you still
just get one piece, So that theequality model, every single one
of us gets one piece regardless,and the equity is to name that.
(22:27):
maybe Fred's like, you knowwhat?
I'm not hungry.
Lee had my piece.
Boom, that's equity right there.
Lee needs an extra slice rightnow, Lee's a little extra
hungry.
Lee gets an extra piece.
The, when we're talking aboutequity at this moment, we're,
it's getting all wrapped up inthis, uh, in a, on a political,
moment.
(22:47):
And the word itself actuallydoesn't really matter.
That practice
Lee (22:51):
Yeah, definitely.
S. Leigh Thompson (22:53):
how are we actually showing up to say like,
Hey, you, you need a littleextra boost right now.
I'm gonna get, I don't need it.
I actually don't need it.
Here you go.
Now we've been, in the UnitedStates, we've been raised on
this concept of fairness.
And fairness is, we've beentaught is this equality model
that everyone still gets apiece.
Well, that's not fair.
Why does league get an extrapiece?
I don't get extra ps.
Yeah, that's, that may not seemfair on the very, very surface.
(23:17):
if we're just looking at howthings play out at that pizza
party and everybody walks intothat room and Fred has no pizza
on their plate, and you have twopieces, Fred might say, that's
not fair.
Because often our, our approachto equity hasn't ever been
around getting people to buy into what they need and what
they're giving up will itwillingly.
(23:39):
And so, and we often haven'tbeen, you know, we're talking
about large societies.
We're well beyond a pizza partywhen we're talking about, you
know, the United States muchless the, the global community.
How we build a larger culture toactually show up for our needs
are different, and that's okay.
(23:59):
And we don't need to just haveall the pizza.
We, the way that we're, when wehave it, when we're building an
empathetic practice, it actuallyhelps us really care for what
the other people need.
Lee (24:15):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (24:15):
a reason why it's under attack.
It's because it is veryeffective to invite people to
share rather than own.
and when we invest in peoplesharing rather than owning,
that's a, dig on.
That's, not a dig on.
That is something thatchallenges the core of
capitalism itself.
Capitalism
Lee (24:32):
Exactly.
S. Leigh Thompson (24:32):
money on, its on its core.
It's about ownership.
It's about restricting, it'sabout being able to hold
something rather than somethingbeing the will or the collective
of the people.
And, What I know is that peoplemay feel some sort of success by
owning more, but I almost alwayssee, and I mean I work with some
real rich people to be real attimes, not exclusively right,
(24:54):
but I've worked with some realrich people that people are
happier when they share.
I.
And so if people are happierwhen they share, and can we
build, cultures and communitiesand organizations and
relationships where we'reactually just like, yeah, we're
good.
We don't need to balance thingsout.
They don't need to be balanced.
We just need to make sure thatwe're actually feeling good
(25:15):
about how we're showing up, howI'm showing up and what we all
have, and making sure that atthe very, very least, nobody is.
That everyone is able to behealthy, happy, safe, and
secure.
and when we have those things,then everything beyond that is
gravy.
Lee (25:31):
Yeah, it's almost impossible when it's a zero sum
game, which is why capitalism isdesigned that way.
But my question for you, this,is fascinating by the way.
I love the way that you thinkabout this work.
I think it's so important rightnow, but can you have equity
without empathy then?
S. Leigh Thompson (25:55):
we can have the result, we can have similar
results without but I don'tthink we're ever gonna actually
get to it.
No.
'cause folks having, gettingwhat they need, I.
That on, like, if we look atthat as like a, an exchange of
things, right?
If we go back into that, likeaccounting, Yeah, folks can get
(26:15):
what they need to some extent,but actually buying in and
actually investing on what dopeople need versus what do they
want, what feels like, uh, fairor unfair that requires empathy
to be able to actually even dothat work.
And so is it foundationalpractice in order for us to get
to the place of, Equity, whichgets us to the place of
liberation, right?
Liberation is a place where weall get to be fully human and we
(26:38):
do not have to, um, uh, wherevalue is not contingent on any
characteristic.
but we actually get, to justlive not, you know, people said
the word free before and I'mvery cautious not to say free,
but people get to live fully infully human lives.
which means we have access tothings, to, to.
(27:02):
that are available to us, whilestill being responsive and
caring to the others around us.
And if we're not in relationshipwith hu other human beings in a
way that is right and just, andcaring, then we're not actually
fully human.
There's a reason why we're,we're social, a social, uh,
species is because we.
We want to be in connection.
(27:22):
And so if we're creatingdividing lines between us and
other people, then we're notfully human either.
So liberation is a place wherewe're fully human, where we have
full connections with otherpeople.
We have to be able to understandself and other in relationship
with each other as opposed tothat dividing line of binary, us
versus them, me versus you, um,self and other, but said, we're
(27:42):
all part of this together, thatrequires empathy to make it
happen.
Lee (27:46):
Liberation is a place where we are fully human.
Yes, And you know, I have somuch hope for the organizing
that's happening all over thiscountry.
For people using their voices.
And yet you mentioned movementstrategy and thinking about
(28:07):
liberatory spaces and socialimpact spaces and how much
conflict there is in so many ofthese spaces, let alone, you
know, really any space.
But how do we build movementsthat are equitable, that are
liberatory, and how do we holdeach other accountable when we
have internal disagreement?
S. Leigh Thompson (28:29):
it's not easy, because we all, I, I'll be
cautious not to say all.
the, vast majority of us havebeen steeped in a culture that
says, criticism is, is,dangerous because criticism
leads to punishment, exile,destruction, et cetera.
'cause that's what.
Has happened to us and we'veseen that happen to other
(28:50):
people.
and so, you know, to be in aplace where folks can actually
have, organizations havecultures of curiosity, um, and
are able to provide critical andloving feedback to each other,
um, that doesn't feelthreatening, that takes a while
to develop.
And across organizations we'redealing with different cultures,
(29:12):
right?
Because each organization hasits own unique culture.
It's both in its field, but alsolike where they're at in the
world and also what their work,just their workplace culture is,
who's actually making it up?
the, body of the organization,the constituency, et cetera.
but across these organizations,folks don't agree on what we're
supposed to be doing.
(29:33):
and, often that thosedisagreements go into, the
finger wagging, blame, shaming,guilt pieces.
I, you know, first off, Ibelieve that, you know, we have
to move beyond, like what in, inour movements, there's, there's
not going to be a one right way.
There just isn't.
We have to take that, off the,shelf and instead say there's a
(29:56):
lot of ways to move forward.
What am I uniquely positioned todo, and what's the strategic
opportunity available?
This is what, you know, I walkall of my, my clients through
this, this question, what areyou uniquely positioned to do?
Is what are you, what are yourskills?
What are your talents?
What are your capacities?
What are your positionalitiesand relationships that you are
holding, um, that feel, uh,important?
(30:19):
Um, those things, all of thethings.
What do you have the energy todo or the resources to do?
that's your uniquepositionality.
And then there's a strategicopportunity within those fields,
within those things that you'reholding that perhaps you can
engage at that moment.
And that's gonna be differentbased on what your unique
positionality is and what'savailable to you, where you are,
(30:40):
what the moment is.
So each group may be actuallyhaving to do different things,
um, and understand that thereisn't just one right way.
So one of the things that Ioften get, one of my roles often
is in spaces that often are alittle bit more incremental.
Lee (30:58):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (30:59):
to shift, asking for policy changes, you
know, helping do training andculture shifts.
And some of those things aresmaller practices, even though
there are violences that arehappening right now that are
causing death and destructionfor communities globally.
But definitely right here, notonly in the world, but in my own
hometown, right?
and so, like incrementalism,isn't going to meet the needs of
(31:22):
the person who's under fire
Lee (31:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (31:26):
I.
I, and there are people who aretrying to stop people who are
under fire right now today, andthey need something fast.
Lee (31:36):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (31:37):
and fast movements usually don't get
buy-in.
Except for in some situations,in some circumstances, we can
talk about that another time.
But, but most of the time, fast,you know, stop this right now,
that is it literally anoppositional stance.
and so that's not going todevelop buy-in, but it may stop
the behavior, but it may notstop the culture where the
(31:59):
behavior isn't going toreplicate down the road.
and so with that.
We have technology that both ofthose strategies actually need
to happen.
Like I need somebody to be thereto say, stop this violence right
now, and I need the cultures ofpeople who are told to stop this
right now are also learning howto build the practice so that
(32:21):
way they never go back and putsomebody under a fire again.
Stopping that one time isn'tgoing to help the next time
unless we are building thosepractices.
so we need any, we need to beempathetic about the, any and
all fronts.
This work needs to happen.
I, I'll tell my client, or I'lltell people often that like, I
actually really benefit fromhaving people outside the
building saying, you know, with,with I, I see this.
(32:45):
To be silly, but with pitchforksand torches saying, you know,
like, because when that, whenpeople are outside with
pitchforks and torches and I'mlike, Hey, don't you think it'd
be nice to get outta here?
'cause I think they might burnthe building down.
We should go and get the buy-inabout leaving and vacating
before anything happens.
But having folks put fire underthe cause can help.
(33:05):
The rest of us who are doingthat incremental work actually
have the energy and.
The opportunity to coax people,to change.
'cause change isn't easy folks.
Rarely embrace it or enjoy it.
Um, and so because of that, weneed it, we need a lot of
motivation to go through change.
(33:26):
and that motivation, I, if it'sjust like fear of, you know,
litigation or some sort of likepolitical impetus, it's not the
greatest, but if it can bebecause folks actually are
building these tools to care,building the practice to, to
understand why the change ishelpful, and then building the
skills.
The muscle to just understandthat change is constant.
So let's just start to feel itand know it.
(33:47):
then they can move a little bitmore swiftly in it.
And then just last to say onthat, that, when we talk about
organizations, kind of in theseinfighting moments, that we,
really have to think about, arethe things that we have in
alignment and can we just reallysupport each other on that?
And that's part of thatempathetic practice again, is
(34:08):
even it's hard to see what arethe pace places of alignment and
then can we support in buildingthe, conditions where we get
that.
foundational work hasn'thappened a long time around
equity and justice work.
Um, folks have been doing toplevel and, and when DEI put that
in quotes, became a a anindustry, while
Lee (34:27):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (34:27):
work has happened for decades and decades
and decades, right?
Like
Lee (34:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (34:31):
work be before DEI work letters.
but I.
When DEI became an industry, itbe much of it was in, this is
how you don't get sued, this ishow you don't get, um, this is
how HR policies that you create,et cetera, et cetera.
But not about like how do yousupport your.
The culture of your, um, of yourstaff to think differently about
(34:54):
each other and about themselves.
How do you get them to not feelin competition with each other,
where they have to, you know,feel like they're fighting all
the time?
How do you actually build a,community of care where that
even if someone is let go,they're not gonna wanna sue you?
'cause they straight up knowthat you're trying your best and
they care about you too.
Right?
Those are radical, you know,radically.
(35:17):
Transformative spaces to work.
I've worked in such a space inthe past and I've helped create
them since.
but folks don't think it'spossible and so they just stay
in these places of competition.
so when we build thosefoundational, understanding,
empathy being one of thosepractices, then folks can have
the tools that they need todevelop policies and procedures
and practices that actually arerooted in these more liberatory,
(35:39):
uh, approaches.
Lee (35:41):
I can see why it's so important to have someone who's
external to the organization andyou being an external
facilitator and consultant, Ican see how important that is
just for helping people even getto that place.
And you know, it really comesfull circle of thinking about
like change as a creativeprocess.
And there is no one size fitsall.
(36:01):
And even that, gives me.
Hope and clarity, and I'm reallygrateful, Lee, that you have a
practice around this, that youhave a process to lead us
through and organizationsthrough, because boy, do we need
it right now.
S. Leigh Thompson (36:18):
Yeah.
And we need it.
I, I would say we've alwaysneeded it.
We need it all the time.
And right now we're seeing whyit's been needed.
We're seeing the, the worst partof it.
And even when things seem to bea little bit more copacetic, we
still need to be doing it, untilwe reach liberation where
everyone just kind of gets, getseverything that we need and want
all at the same time.
Like, we should always go begoing towards how do we become
(36:38):
better?
so when this part of the work isdone, there will always be more
to do.
Change is that constant piece.
We're just gonna keep growing,keep building, and the only time
that you know that you havefailed is when you're not moving
in the direction of thatliberatory vision.
so yeah, we always need it atall times.
Right now we're in a really hardspot.
(37:01):
we're feeling a lot of painpoints.
There's a lot of hurt and harmin the world.
And I'm also saying that a lotof the people who are the
pronators of the destructionthat we are experiencing right
now also are experiencing, haveexperienced a lot of hurt and
harm in the world.
Lee (37:14):
Yeah.
S. Leigh Thompson (37:15):
they are results of trauma and
generational trauma that hastaught them that the only way to
be a human being is to cutthemselves off from other human
beings and to hurt other people.
And that's a really sadexistence to live as well.
We all need it.
you know, this is an opportunityfor us to kind of continue to
try to get it not throughfighting at each other, but
(37:36):
actually bringing each other in.
Lee (37:38):
We all need it and I'm really grateful for you to be
able to see that and to help ussee it.
And I'm so grateful for thisconversation and to be your
friend and to learn from you.
Thank you, Lee.
S. Leigh Thompson (37:51):
Same.
Thank you so much for this, thisconversation.
I really appreciate it and foreverything that you'd continue
to do, to lift up the what makespeople, the best of who they
are, and to feel better abouthow they share their voice and
how they show up in the world.
Lee (38:04):
Thank you my friend.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.