August 6, 2025 • 36 mins
In times of rising authoritarianism and social upheaval, how do we find hope without falling into toxic positivity? This week, I sit down with my dear friend Abigail Somma, founder of Gratitude Buddies and mindfulness teacher, to explore gratitude as a tool for resistance and refocusing.
Abbie taught me about loving-kindness meditation nearly a decade ago, and her approach to gratitude as a practice—not just a feeling—completely shifted how I understand presence and self-compassion.
In this conversation, we explore:
- Why gratitude becomes accessible in moments of crisis (and why it's harder during prolonged depression)
- How to practice loving-kindness toward people who disagree with us
- The difference between empathy and toxic positivity
- How workplace gratitude has evolved from transaction to inner wellness—and what comes next
- Gratitude Buddies: a platform for skill-sharing and community building beyond traditional capitalism
- Why we need "compassionate wise action" instead of judgment
- Using gratitude as a refocusing tool in moments of conflict
Abigail Somma (Abbie) is the founder of Gratitude Buddies, a platform where people swap small joys and meaningful skills. She has coached and trained hundreds of people in mindfulness, gratitude and emotional wellbeing, and delivered workshops to international organizations, businesses, and leading universities. Previously, she worked in international policy as a speechwriter for business leaders, celebrities and multiple United Nations figureheads. Her writing has appeared in Scary Mommy, Foreign Policy, the Globe and Mail and others. She is also a poet and playwright, with degrees from Johns Hopkins University and Villanova University. Abbie lives in Vienna with her two children. Learn more at gratitudebuddies.com and abigailsomma.com.
Timestamps:
- 0:00 Introduction and how we met through Priya Parker
- 3:00 Gratitude vs. toxic positivity
- 8:00 Is gratitude innate or learned?
- 11:00 Practicing loving-kindness toward difficult people
- 15:00 Finding balance between empathy and effectiveness
- 17:00 What is Gratitude Buddies?
- 23:00 Europe vs. US: different responses to social regression
- 28:00 Technology, AI, and staying human
- 33:00 How to stay grounded in uncertain times
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee (00:05):
Hi friends.
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence.
I'm your host Lee, and we needto talk about how we can find
hope and meaning in this moment.
There's a lot going on and todayI'm so excited to sit down with
my friend Abigail Somma.
Abbie is the founder ofGratitude Buddies, a platform
(00:26):
where people swap small joys andmeaningful skills, and she has
coached.
Hundreds of people inmindfulness, gratitude and
emotional wellbeing.
Abbie is one of the first peoplewho first taught me about
mindfulness, and Abbie was oneof the first people who I
learned gratitude from as aconcept, and I'm really excited
(00:47):
to talk to her.
She also previously worked ininternational policy as a speech
writer for the UN and otherFigureheads, and here's my
conversation with Abbie.
Welcome, Abbie.
How you doing?
Abbie (01:01):
Thanks, Lee.
Happy to be here.
I'm doing well.
Lee (01:04):
You are across the world from me right now.
You're in Vienna, right?
Abbie (01:10):
Yes.
I live in Vienna, Austria almostfor 10 years now.
Lee (01:15):
Wow.
So you and I first met, thatmust have been 20, 20, 20 15.
Was it 2015 when we first met,you think?
Abbie (01:24):
I think so it was right before we moved here.
That was the year before wemoved here.
And actually I, I think I hadjust gotten into teaching
mindfulness at that time.
I was finishing a certificationand yes, and, and then our paths
crossed around then I.
Lee (01:41):
I had just started meditating a few years before
that and I was struggling withit.
And I even remember we wereintroduced by Priya Parker, our
mutual friend.
Right.
Abbie (01:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's She introduced usbecause she thought, oh, speech
writer and public speakingcoach, they should come together
and she
Lee (02:03):
Yeah,
Abbie (02:04):
make something beautiful.
Lee (02:06):
it's amazing Priya, as the, the real expert in terms of
gathering people, right?
And she was able to bring ustogether and I remember going to
a, a.
Meditation class of yours, andwe were in Long Island City.
We were in a back garden, and itwas from you that I first heard
the concept of metta, of lovingkindness meditation, and you
(02:29):
were the first person who reallyintroduced gratitude to me as a
concept.
Abbie (02:36):
Yeah, that's cool.
That's, that's really, yeah.
Interesting and exciting and uh,something that we could
definitely go into a little bitdeeper.
Uh, I think Americans reallyknow.
Gratitude through Thanksgiving.
Like that's how they, that'stheir, their framework for
gratitude.
And it's a good frameworkbecause I don't think, uh, the
(02:56):
only other country that has, uh,a has Thanksgiving that a
holiday dedicated to gratitudeis Canada, as far as I know.
Could be others.
Yeah.
Lee (03:06):
It's interesting and for me, when you first introduced
that as, as like a.
A concept, a tool really is howyou introduced it.
I found it that it was themissing link for me with
meditation and mindfulness thatI didn't have that part of it
and I was struggling.
I was actually like really hardon myself about my inability to
(03:30):
focus and be present.
And so when I met you and Ilearned about.
Mindfulness and gratitude andmeta and caring for ourselves.
It, it really was a shift,Abbie, I was able to start
practicing in a real way.
So I'm grateful.
I'm grateful to you.
Abbie (03:48):
Yeah, that's interesting.
If we think of mindfulness, interms of presence and
observation, moment it, it maynot fill, I.
What we need it to.
It may not, you know, it may notgive us everything that we need.
Like we need to round it outwith other things like with
(04:09):
self-compassion, with lovingkindness, with gratitude, you
know, to get the whole picture.
uh, yeah.
So gratitude itself is a reallyinteresting concept and I think
that many people find itsaccharine and annoying.
And so I have to, you know.
(04:29):
I have to work with that side ofit myself.
When you're, when you'restruggling, when you're having a
really hard day, when you're inpain, you're not interested in
gratitude, you're, you'reinterested in venting, you're
interested in having a, abreakdown.
So, uh, it, you know, we needmany tools in our toolbox
because there are gonna be manydifferent experiences that
require different, uh, you know,different responses.
Lee (04:52):
Yeah.
And you know, in this momentwhen we're seeing so much rising
authoritarianism across theworld, particularly in this
country and in these hardmoments, I think you're right,
gratitude can feel inaccessible.
And I, I really wanna talk aboutit today as a tool, as a
refocusing tool.
(05:12):
I know that.
I was in an accident, you know,almost three years ago now,
it'll be the A, the anniversaryis in a few weeks.
And I remember even in thatmoment with a broken pelvis and
a broken sacrum feelingincredibly grateful because that
was what was tangibly availableto me as a focusing tool.
(05:33):
And so tell me, Abbie, like whatbrings you to gratitude?
What's the power behind thisword?
Abbie (05:41):
Uh, so well, so what you said is really interesting and I
just want to comment on thatfirst, is I was doing a
presentation or preparing apresentation around the time of
the Los Angeles wildfires, andmany people on the news talking
about their experience andgratitude comes up over and over
(06:02):
and over again because you're inthis place where you've just
lost everything and you need to.
It's, it's so must be so humanlike.
Like, oh, thank God I have my,my, my pet.
Thank God I still have this,whatever it may be.
Those moments really crystallizeour values and our priorities
and that's where we gratitudecomes in because we recognize
(06:26):
what really matters and what wereally care about.
So those moments of, of, ofimmense hardship are ironically
some of.
Of those which we, where we feelthe most gratitude.
I I, or like, like this kind ofsudden hardship, I think when it
really becomes inaccessible isprolonged depression.
I think that's when it becomesreally hard to access, uh, when
(06:48):
we're, or grief, uh, things likethat.
So, but back to your otherquestion, how did I come to it?
how did I come to it?
first came to meditation and tomindfulness.
Meditation was extremelytherapeutic to me in, uh, a
(07:09):
period of depression.
It really helped me dismantle mythinking and to I.
To start to rebuild new ways ofunderstanding myself and the
world that weren't sodestructive.
And so meditation was, wasreally like a lifesaver
Lee (07:23):
life.
Abbie (07:24):
And I had a meditation community.
I had my, my little communitycalled the Mindful Goods.
And then, uh, and then at somepoint, you know, I started using
gratitude in a way a lot ofpeople do.
You, you, you come to thisunderstanding that, wow, I can,
I can cultivate.
Wellbeing and positive emotionswithin myself, like no matter
(07:46):
what's happening in the world, Ihave that ability often, if not
always, to cultivate wellbeing.
And one of the ways to do thatis through gratitude.
I.
Lee (07:58):
It's really powerful, that taking back of control and it's
not, you know, this toxicpositivity thing.
It's not religion, you know,it's, it's something that almost
feels innate.
Is it innate to us to go togratitude?
Does it happen naturally?
Is it something we have topractice?
Abbie (08:19):
Uh, maybe both.
I mean, there are definitelydifferences in cultures around
this concept of gratitude.
Not everybody understands it thesame way.
Uh, sometimes when I've beengiving workshops, people would
say, you know, I wanted to thanksomebody, I wanted to thank my
parents.
And they got so awkward theyshut it down, you know, so it
(08:40):
opens up this space ofvulnerability that's not always
comfortable for everybody.
Uh, so.
know, I think if you're lookingat a sunset or you're looking at
something magnificent, thatgratitude connected to awe is
innate, there is another kind ofgratitude that can be practiced,
(09:03):
can be cultivated, can changewho we are, and can move us from
this space of depression toappreciation, even though life
is hard.
So all those things coexist.
Lee (09:17):
It is really interesting that almost conscious practice
of it, right?
And I even see this with myclients.
One of the.
Tools we use when someone is puton the spot or they feel like
they're in a moment of conflictor they feel like they might get
defensive.
One of the tools is to refocuson gratitude and to thank the
(09:39):
person for bringing it up, evenin a moment of conflict, to
thank them for theirperspective.
And that's not an original idea,but it somehow makes us feel
more powerful to cultivategratitude.
Have you found that?
Abbie (09:51):
I, I just like the way
Lee (09:53):
I like the way that you.
Abbie (09:54):
do that all the time, like, and I recommend it to
people all the time as well,that when you get into a space
of conflict, send that persongood energy, wellbeing,
happiness, wish them well, what,whatever the case may be,
because we have energy fieldsbetween all of us, right?
And so there's somethingpowerful.
I, I like the idea of thinkingthat you could do it in the
(10:15):
moment, and I think that'sdefinitely something that takes
practice, um, to be able toimmediately shift.
I, I think it's certainly,possible, but it, it would
probably take practice for a lotof people.
Even, even for me, it would takepractice.
Lee (10:28):
For me too, especially what you just said of, you know,
sending love to people who wishus harm or sending love to
people who we might not see eyeto eye with.
You know, in this moment of somuch immense division in our
society and so much growinghatred and fear, like how do we.
Practice that.
How do we protect our empathyand our hearts while still
(10:53):
connecting with others who mightdisagree with us?
Abbie (10:57):
I remember when Vladimir Putin and his.
His, whoever it is, invadedUkraine.
I thought, oh, I'm gonnapractice loving kindness on him
because in a way, we're, whatwe're hoping is that when we
practice, that people's heartswill open and we have to have
the belief that everybody hasthe potential for their heart to
(11:17):
open.
And, you know, in a, in atraditional.
Buddhist practice.
As I understand you begin thispractice by focusing on the
person who's easy to love.
And that's, you know, I did didit with people recently, and
they, they choose their pet for,for many people there's at least
something or someone that's easyto love.
And then we move to the neutralperson.
(11:39):
And the neutral person isreally.
Really powerful because itreminds us of all these people
in our midst who we don't give alot of our mental attention to,
who are present in our lives,who are potentially supporting
our lives in one way or another,adding to our lives.
Smile to us when we, at us, whenwe get our groceries.
(12:00):
So we'd be, you know, we pickone person, but then it's like
we bring that person to life ina way that they weren't.
So that's the second person.
And then as we progress, wechoose the person who we find
difficult to love.
And of course, that actuallyends up often being a family
member, someone really close tous who triggers us personally.
Uh, but I think that when.
(12:23):
When we keep practicing this,when this becomes like a skill
for, we can, we can extend thisto everybody and it does no harm
to us actually.
And it doesn't mean that we're,we're just complacent and we
accept things, but we're, we'restrong and we're resilient, and
we act from a wiser center.
Lee (12:42):
Yeah, it brings me, you know, back to thinking about
hope as an acts of resistance.
You know, hope as a verb.
Thinking about Audre Lorde,thinking about, you know, joy in
this moment, cultivating joy onpurpose in moments of turmoil
and.
And building empathy.
It, it brings me to empathy too.
(13:03):
And how does all of this relateto empathy?
Abbie (13:08):
Well, I mean, so in which context are you thinking?
Are you thinking of empathy forthe people that we feel I.
A sense of, of resistance towardor toward our fellow
Lee (13:19):
I.
Abbie (13:19):
at large, or what, what are you
Lee (13:21):
Or even ourselves.
I think in this moment, empathyis feeling hard in this moment.
It feels like we have to armorup and protect ourselves and
numb ourselves, and how can wepossibly have empathy in this
moment?
And we're seeing so muchvilification of the word empathy
(13:42):
we're seeing.
That word be, uh, attacked andweaponized.
Elon Musk said that empathy isthe greatest weakness of Western
civilization, and it sounds tome like even the practice of
gratitude is a, an empathypractice, but I wonder if you
see it that way.
Abbie (14:03):
Well, I don't, I don't think that empathy is always the
right response to everything
Lee (14:09):
Hmm.
Abbie (14:10):
well.
It's funny, like I was walkingdown the street saying to myself
the other day, would I, would
Lee (14:15):
Day.
Abbie (14:15):
be, I.
Like extremely positive.
'cause I meet people who areextremely positive and I find
them to be not empatheticbecause they're so positive that
they don't have the emotionalbandwidth for anything that
doesn't fit.
And then, or would I rather beextremely empathetic?
And the only answer I could comeup with is neither.
You have to have balance.
(14:36):
Like the answer's really in themiddle.
It's about.
like having the right responsefor the right time and to
cultivating like a sense ofbalance.
Because if you're overlyempathetic, you're not
effective, uh, and uh, and youdon't, you don't yourself that
space to have a.
(14:56):
A beautiful moment.
A meaningful moment becausethere's so much pain in the
world.
So it's really about cultivatingthe right, that right sense of
equanimity and balance.
And I once heard someone saythat mindfulness is a kind of
self empathy.
So you're, you're quiet, you'represent, and you are aware of
(15:17):
what is going on with you inthat moment, and you.
And you bring, if you can bringself-compassion to that, then
you're bringing a sense ofempathy to yourself, which I
think is really a, appropriateresponse when we're suffering
and we're struggling, and if wecould do all of this for five
year olds, we probably wouldn'tbe in this situation that we're
(15:38):
in.
Right now, which is that we haveadults who don't know how to
self-soothe.
They don't maybe know whatthey're feeling.
They don't know how to respond.
Uh, you know, I don't know, ina, in a, in a mature way to
their feelings.
So yeah, we have like thischaotic world for, for reasons
(16:01):
that seem relatively simple tosolve.
You know, it's like, it'srelatively simple.
Lee (16:07):
Yeah, totally.
And a lot of the people who arecurrently dismantling so much of
our, our society are in insecureand probably not connecting with
their own gratitude.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Abbie (16:22):
You know, and again, that's gonna go back to balance
too.
And so it, it's like we have tohave enough self-love and enough
confidence to be like, okay, Ihave a right to be here, and yet
I don't wanna be anybody's guru.
Lee (16:33):
Totally.
And so, Abbie, can I ask youabout gratitude buddies?
Tell us what this is.
Abbie (16:42):
Yeah, so Gratitude buddies really came out of my
mindfulness practice, uh, atsome and, and the mindfulness
practice of my community.
And at some point I wanted toput them together maybe as
meditation buddies where theycould be accountable to one
another, and they seemed not sointerested in that as they were
with gratitude buddies, likegratitude buddies.
(17:03):
I think that sounds fun.
People like it, it doesn't soundthat hard.
And so people, a few people sentit to friends of friends and,
and they, they wrote to me andsaid they wanted a gratitude
buddy.
And they wrote these verybeautiful reasons for wanting a
gratitude buddy.
Like they were separated fromtheir family.
And, uh, so I thought, oh, thisis something people are
interested in.
And.
And I decided to try to developit.
(17:25):
Uh, I don't have an engineeringbackground.
I don't have an engineer onstaff.
So the, the platform that Ibuilt initially as a way to
practice gratitude togetherdidn't live up to what I had
wanted it to.
And at the same time, there wassomething else that was making
me wanna shift.
I think it was because I wasgoing through my own period of
(17:45):
grief, around the time of, ofhaving gratitude buddies.
And though.
Gratitude was actually helpfulto me on some days.
On some days it, it was, I hadvery mixed feelings about it.
And then I was also looking atthe macro picture at what's
happening.
So this presentation that I'mgonna be delivering on Monday,
(18:08):
it's sort of looks at, forexample, how, How gratitude has
evolved in the workplacecultures.
So if we look post-industrialand if we look, uh, 1980s and
before this idea of, ofgratitude was sort of built
(18:28):
around transaction and builtaround loyalty.
Like, I'll give you a job, youstay with me for forever.
I'll give you a plaque after somany years, I'll give you a
pension.
So the, there wasn't this ideaof the emotional component.
Actively pursued.
And that started to shift inaround the nineties.
There was a bunch of books thatcame out, much more attention to
(18:51):
emotional intelligence in theinterpersonal way.
And then we moved from thatinto, uh, what started really
growing around 2010, which isthe inner work.
And the inner wellbeing becamereally popular in workplace
culture.
And so, now we're looking at,at.
Integration, but we have someadditional components.
(19:13):
And the additional componentsare, do these policies of
recognition and and innerwellness match the internal
human resources policies?
Do we have anti-bullying?
Do we have, uh, diversity, uh,we have, um, enough paid leave?
Do we have, you know, uh, so,and then.
(19:38):
The final component, I guess youmight say is the ESG, the
environment, the social and thegovernance, putting them all
together, which has also becamepopular in the last 10, 15
years.
we're looking at now gratitudeas a system.
And so for me, I'm, I'm seeing,well, what role can I play just
beyond inner wellbeing when Iknow we're all interdependent
(19:58):
and we're all connected and wehave these, this kind of
extractive capitalism that is.
Is going to have to evolve.
And so it's not that we're goingto get rid of wealth or that we
even should, but we have toexpand our understanding of what
resources look like, of whatsuccess looks like and how we
support each other.
(20:20):
And so now Gratitude buddieshas.
It has the inner wellbeingcomponent, but it also is about
the skill share and about comingtogether in, in a sense of
offering.
Like, I, I have this to offerand you have this.
So it's, it's not replacingmoney, it's expanding resources
so that, and maybe it, it buildsour businesses.
(20:40):
Somebody new sees what we cando, or we learn how to teach a
new skill and we're comingtogether.
And, and I like to keep itgrounded in mindfulness and
grounded in this kind of, um.
This idea that we're showing upfor each other.
We recognize each other ashumans first.
Because what will happen intraditional networking, and even
(21:00):
it happens in my platform, issomebody will say, yeah, but I
don't have anything to offer.
And I, I wanna say, well, whenyou're coming to this platform,
we see you first as as a human,and everyone has something to
offer.
Lee (21:13):
Wow, that is so powerful, Abbie.
And just thinking about it fromthe personal level to the
systemic level and you know,thinking about the way that
mindfulness and meditation haslike personally helped me rewire
my mind.
Or in your words, you said likedismantle thinking and create
new ways of understanding theworld that's less destructive.
(21:36):
Like that we can take that.
Micro moment and that we canstart to move it into the macro
societal issues because that iswhat's most important here,
right?
We can be mindful and we can bepracticing this personally, but
if we don't have ways to expandour resources and like have new
models of growth, as you say, Ithink it's so powerful i'm
(22:01):
curious too.
I think, you know, in thissociety here in the States, we
are certainly in this moment ofretraction and, you know, maybe
we were in this, you know,diversity, equity and inclusion,
ex exploration and thinkingabout, as you said, ESG and all
of these.
Growth models, but it feels likewe're now in a moment where it's
(22:23):
retracting and it's goingbackwards and it's regressing
and we, our systems are startingto reject the ex exact tools
that can help us progress andmove forward.
Are you feeling that in Europetoo?
Are you seeing that as a globalphenomenon or do you think that
this is going to be a blip andwe can continue to progress?
Abbie (22:46):
Well, europe, I think, I mean it's obviously got many
different cultures and manydifferent things happening, and
I think because many places inEurope have.
Deeper social roots.
It is a little bit different.
Like you don't, but, but youknow, these, these far right
parties are rising in manydifferent countries and, and
(23:07):
things are regressing,particularly in the US but in
other places as well.
And then what we like to think.
Is that, uh, growth is notlinear.
And so you have theseregressions, but they, they take
us to an even higher level.
And I think the question for usnow is that, uh, know, how, how
(23:32):
dark is it gonna get or how loware things gonna go?
But you know, one, one of thethings you said before about.
Empathy when, when we're talkingabout mindfulness, one of the
big components of mindfulness ismoving into non-judgment.
That is incredibly hard for thehuman to do.
The human loves to judge.
(23:55):
They love it.
And you know what?
You feel justified judgingSometimes.
You're like, well, I have tojudge this, or I have to, but,
but I don't know that that Idon't know that it helps.
Uh, so I, I say that like our,all of our crazy energy is now
coming to the surface.
(24:15):
There is a good side to ourcrazy underbelly getting
revealed because things need tobe healed and uh, and so that
has a positive to it as well.
But I think into a space ofcompassionate wise action is so
much more powerful.
Then judgment.
Lee (24:37):
Compassionate wise action.
Oh, I love that.
I just love the, the duality ofit, Abbie.
It feels really necessary today.
And you know, even the way youtalk about gratitude and the
gratitude buddies.
Platform.
It brings me to mutual aid andit brings me to what we're
(24:58):
seeing on the ground when thereis disaster and the ways that
communities come together.
What's happening in LA isincredibly beautiful and
powerful, the rapid responsework and the showing up for our
communities.
And so it brings us back to thatquestion, you know, is this
innate?
Is this something that.
We have in us in a natural way,and it's really beautiful to
(25:22):
hear about it too.
Abbie (25:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny because I think one
could maybe argue that Darwinismwas, was just a perspective in a
way like that there's anotherperspective that human beings
are just naturally meant tocollaborate, but we almost need
the right
Lee (25:40):
Wow.
Abbie (25:40):
incubator to, to collaborate and, and that
incubator, I think again, startswhen we're very small.
Lee (25:48):
Yeah, and I think that our universe could even be that
incubator if we could havesystems besides capitalism
because that of course reallyworks against so much of what
you're talking about.
Abbie (26:03):
Well, we're gonna have to find a, a way forward that
honors the designer who wants tomake a new dress.
We're gonna, you know, that hasthat creative impulse, but that,
that's not only rewardingshareholders, like that's where
the real rub is, as far as I seeit is only rewarding
shareholders once we, so what isthat gonna look like?
(26:25):
Is it gonna be employee ownedbusinesses?
Is it we, we have to, you know.
We need an age of enlightenmentbecause this is, is got, this
has got a time limit on it.
And so then I think of somethinglike gratitude buddies, well, at
least in the interim it, itoffers different models.
And it's funny'cause it's justgoing back to very ancient ways
(26:46):
of, of connecting.
But we're doing it now with moreconsciousness and more
intention.
So, um, yeah.
I love it actually, because,because I'm running it, I'm
like, oh, oh, that person needsbabysitting.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like, I wasn't expectingsomebody to put babysitting up
there, but I'm like, I think Icould figure out how to do that
(27:08):
for you.
So it is, it's
Lee (27:10):
Wow.
Abbie (27:10):
it's just shifting the way that we think actually, and,
and what's really available tous if, if we come together in
this kind of open hearted, goodspirited way, which is, I, I
think, you know, we, we must.
Trust people and, and then whenwe trust people, we bring out
the best in them and notblindly, not like an idiot, but
(27:30):
we must trust people, you know.
Lee (27:33):
Yeah, and you know, even what you're talking about with
having, moving away from beingjust dependent on shareholders
and this idea of like, how canwe all be the beneficiaries of
gratitude and generosity?
It brings me back to thinkingabout AI too, and how when we
are looking at technology, justas you know, a dehumanizing
(27:58):
factor, as a, you know.
Almost like it doesn't matterwhat the implications are.
We can build this for the sakeof building it.
We don't have to think about theeffect on human society.
You know, you as a speechwriter, right?
You might be thinking about AIin itself in multiple different
ways.
(28:19):
How can we contend with thistechnology bringing us into the
future in a way that might makegratitude or human connection
harder?
Abbie (28:31):
Oh, I think almost like if you go to like watch any
podcast, you'll have people ontwo sides of the AI fence and
uh, and so it's kind of like we,it's like, again, like we need
that wise middle because, so ingratitude buddies, there's, you
know, when in one of the coursesthere's a day.
(28:52):
Dedicated to what do youappreciate about how technology
has improved your life?
And one of the women approachedme afterwards and she said she,
the list is so long and it's soimmense.
And so if like you, if youmeditate on something like that,
you become aware that it's likeendless.
But yet she had been like,absolutely.
(29:14):
covered with fear about like theradio waves in our house, and
it's like, what are we lettingdominate our thinking?
You know, are we getting so.
Fear-based that we make, youknow, we turn this or, you know,
so I, again, it's not doingthings
Lee (29:32):
Huh.
Abbie (29:32):
but it's recognizing all the good that's there, all the
potential.
That's good.
And if it's your space toadvocate for, for turning this
into a more hu humanistic avenuethan to, to be active from a,
you know, a wise, empowered.
Optimistic space, I think, uh,because it's not gonna be
(29:53):
everybody's space to do that,but it will be the space of, of
some of us.
And so we all have our spacewhere we're contributing.
And, um, yeah.
So I, I do think there's adanger in getting so afraid of
everything, uh, that, that is,that's not good.
Yeah.
Lee (30:11):
Yeah.
And bringing us back to what yousaid about, you know,
dismantling our ways ofthinking, I think that a lot of
us are naturally drawn to fearand anxiety in moments of
tension and stress.
And so helping us, you know,refocus on the opposite and
using gratitude as thisconscious tool feels more
important than ever.
(30:33):
And I wonder, Abbie, how canpeople get involved with
gratitude buddies?
How can they learn more?
Abbie (30:40):
Well, so I just wanna say two things, is one is that,
well, yeah.
First thing is that sometimes Iwould go to gratitude.
If so, I'm like, I have my fearsand anxieties too.
And sometimes something likegratitude is helping and
sometimes it's the self empathyof mindfulness and sometimes it
is just crying sometimes cryingJust helps.
(31:01):
That's what the moment callsfor.
And sometimes even crying shiftsthat energy or dancing or
whatever, shifts that energy sothat you can access that
gratitude.
Because for a lot of times whenit can't be accessed, you need
other tools to get to it.
You may need to
Lee (31:18):
Hmm.
Abbie (31:18):
may need to dance, you may need to run whatever it is
that works.
So it, it can't, it's not alwaysaccessible to us as our, as our
first step.
but how can people, oh yeah.
They can come to gratitudebuddies.com and they can sign up
for a profile and it says Skillswap, but you can really swap
anything or just sign up for agratitude buddy or a mindful
(31:41):
networking.
It doesn't have to be for theskill swap, and everybody does
have something to offer.
If you do want to offersomething and there's courses,
there's a free course, that'sseven days, and I will have a
paid version at some point.
That will be the 30 days andhopefully more.
Specific, uh, uh, gratitudejourneys that are designed to
(32:03):
people's needs.
So for a couple after afternoonbaby, things like that, I
haven't gotten there yet, buthopefully that's coming.
Lee (32:11):
I love that, Abbie.
I love it and I really lovebeing on the platform and just
seeing what everyone has tooffer, but also there's just
this, you know, real comraderyand community around knowing
that you're with other peoplewho want to give gratitude and
want to practice this.
And that in itself makes me feelgrateful and it starts this real
positive feedback loop.
(32:32):
It's really powerful.
Abbie (32:35):
Yeah, that's cool.
Lee (32:37):
So.
Abbie (32:37):
you said, you're, you're showing up with these
like-minded people and, and youkind of know that, okay, this is
a space where I can approachpeople.
That's, that's nice.
Lee (32:47):
It's rare in this moment too, and, and it's not social
media too, it's off of socialmedia, which feels really good
and like a relief too.
Abbie (32:58):
You don't have to, don't have to update your feed.
I
Lee (33:04):
Thank goodness.
Abbie (33:06):
yeah, I would like people to have a space where they could
share like what they're workingon or what they, but I don't
know.
We'll keep thinking about that.
Yeah.
Lee (33:15):
I just wanna know for you personally, in this moment where
the onslaught of the news andeverything that we're hearing
can feel just completelyoverwhelming.
How are you staying groundedwith uncertainty and in
uncertain times?
Abbie (33:34):
So I don't at the news that much.
I mean, that is one thing.
I mean, I, I never watch it.
I don't have a television, butI, I, you know, I wanna know
what's happening, but Idefinitely don't, I.
Go too deeply into it.
One of the things I've startedto do recently is sort of
reconnect with my deepmeditation practice.
(33:54):
I haven't been doing it thesepast days, but for a few weeks I
was doing one hour, two hours aday.
And I
Lee (34:02):
Wow.
Abbie (34:02):
that's really something.
Other than the 10 minutes hereor there because you're, you
feel like you're getting to adeeper space in the
subconscious.
So I think a longer meditationgives you a different experience
than a short one.
And, um, and yeah, I also haveto show up for two kids, so I
(34:23):
kind of like, I know that,
Lee (34:25):
I know.
Abbie (34:25):
that they are.
Sensitive to my feelings.
So when I, when I need to crylike I did yesterday, I tell, I
tell them the context of why andwhat's, you know, age
appropriate and what's going onand that.
I think I even said to my son, Isaid, I.
I haven't been sleeping well andwhen I sleep well, I can handle
(34:47):
small things, but now I haven't.
And so it's harder for me tohandle them and you know, but
for the most part, for me, withthe kids, and we, we should be
this way for ourselves, it's the80 20 rule.
Like 80% of the time, you know,I'm in a good space so that they
can be, they can get that fromme.
I can't do it a hundred percent,but I can do it 80 more or
Lee (35:07):
Oh, I love that.
And it really like takes awaythe perfectionism to of 80% is,
is enough.
I'm enough.
And you know, it really kind ofgives some relief.
Sitting with you.
Abbie today is just bringing meback to 10 years ago when we
first met, and I have not beensitting.
(35:29):
In meditation.
I've been meditating andpracticing mindfulness in so
many other ways, but I, it'sbeen quite some time since I've
sat and after being with youtoday.
I think I need to sit, I think Ineed to start going back to that
in this moment and just havingthat deeper stillness and
silence.
(35:50):
So thank you for that reminder.
I'm really grateful to you,Abigail Somma, thanks for
everything that you do.
Thanks for teaching me aboutmindfulness and gratitude.
Abbie (36:02):
And thank you.
Thank you for
Lee (36:03):
I.
Abbie (36:04):
I mean, this has been such a nice conversation, uh,
for me and you've given me thespace to share some of these
ideas and I really appreciateit.
It's really cool.
Lee (36:13):
Thanks, Abbie.
Hi friends.
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence.
I'm your host Lee, and we needto talk about how we can find
hope and meaning in this moment.
There's a lot going on and todayI'm so excited to sit down with
my friend Abigail Somma.
Abbie is the founder ofGratitude Buddies, a platform
(00:26):
where people swap small joys andmeaningful skills, and she has
coached.
Hundreds of people inmindfulness, gratitude and
emotional wellbeing.
Abbie is one of the first peoplewho first taught me about
mindfulness, and Abbie was oneof the first people who I
learned gratitude from as aconcept, and I'm really excited
(00:47):
to talk to her.
She also previously worked ininternational policy as a speech
writer for the UN and otherFigureheads, and here's my
conversation with Abbie.
Welcome, Abbie.
How you doing?
Abbie (01:01):
Thanks, Lee.
Happy to be here.
I'm doing well.
Lee (01:04):
You are across the world from me right now.
You're in Vienna, right?
Abbie (01:10):
Yes.
I live in Vienna, Austria almostfor 10 years now.
Lee (01:15):
Wow.
So you and I first met, thatmust have been 20, 20, 20 15.
Was it 2015 when we first met,you think?
Abbie (01:24):
I think so it was right before we moved here.
That was the year before wemoved here.
And actually I, I think I hadjust gotten into teaching
mindfulness at that time.
I was finishing a certificationand yes, and, and then our paths
crossed around then I.
Lee (01:41):
I had just started meditating a few years before
that and I was struggling withit.
And I even remember we wereintroduced by Priya Parker, our
mutual friend.
Right.
Abbie (01:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's She introduced usbecause she thought, oh, speech
writer and public speakingcoach, they should come together
and she
Lee (02:03):
Yeah,
Abbie (02:04):
make something beautiful.
Lee (02:06):
it's amazing Priya, as the, the real expert in terms of
gathering people, right?
And she was able to bring ustogether and I remember going to
a, a.
Meditation class of yours, andwe were in Long Island City.
We were in a back garden, and itwas from you that I first heard
the concept of metta, of lovingkindness meditation, and you
(02:29):
were the first person who reallyintroduced gratitude to me as a
concept.
Abbie (02:36):
Yeah, that's cool.
That's, that's really, yeah.
Interesting and exciting and uh,something that we could
definitely go into a little bitdeeper.
Uh, I think Americans reallyknow.
Gratitude through Thanksgiving.
Like that's how they, that'stheir, their framework for
gratitude.
And it's a good frameworkbecause I don't think, uh, the
(02:56):
only other country that has, uh,a has Thanksgiving that a
holiday dedicated to gratitudeis Canada, as far as I know.
Could be others.
Yeah.
Lee (03:06):
It's interesting and for me, when you first introduced
that as, as like a.
A concept, a tool really is howyou introduced it.
I found it that it was themissing link for me with
meditation and mindfulness thatI didn't have that part of it
and I was struggling.
I was actually like really hardon myself about my inability to
(03:30):
focus and be present.
And so when I met you and Ilearned about.
Mindfulness and gratitude andmeta and caring for ourselves.
It, it really was a shift,Abbie, I was able to start
practicing in a real way.
So I'm grateful.
I'm grateful to you.
Abbie (03:48):
Yeah, that's interesting.
If we think of mindfulness, interms of presence and
observation, moment it, it maynot fill, I.
What we need it to.
It may not, you know, it may notgive us everything that we need.
Like we need to round it outwith other things like with
(04:09):
self-compassion, with lovingkindness, with gratitude, you
know, to get the whole picture.
uh, yeah.
So gratitude itself is a reallyinteresting concept and I think
that many people find itsaccharine and annoying.
And so I have to, you know.
(04:29):
I have to work with that side ofit myself.
When you're, when you'restruggling, when you're having a
really hard day, when you're inpain, you're not interested in
gratitude, you're, you'reinterested in venting, you're
interested in having a, abreakdown.
So, uh, it, you know, we needmany tools in our toolbox
because there are gonna be manydifferent experiences that
require different, uh, you know,different responses.
Lee (04:52):
Yeah.
And you know, in this momentwhen we're seeing so much rising
authoritarianism across theworld, particularly in this
country and in these hardmoments, I think you're right,
gratitude can feel inaccessible.
And I, I really wanna talk aboutit today as a tool, as a
refocusing tool.
(05:12):
I know that.
I was in an accident, you know,almost three years ago now,
it'll be the A, the anniversaryis in a few weeks.
And I remember even in thatmoment with a broken pelvis and
a broken sacrum feelingincredibly grateful because that
was what was tangibly availableto me as a focusing tool.
(05:33):
And so tell me, Abbie, like whatbrings you to gratitude?
What's the power behind thisword?
Abbie (05:41):
Uh, so well, so what you said is really interesting and I
just want to comment on thatfirst, is I was doing a
presentation or preparing apresentation around the time of
the Los Angeles wildfires, andmany people on the news talking
about their experience andgratitude comes up over and over
(06:02):
and over again because you're inthis place where you've just
lost everything and you need to.
It's, it's so must be so humanlike.
Like, oh, thank God I have my,my, my pet.
Thank God I still have this,whatever it may be.
Those moments really crystallizeour values and our priorities
and that's where we gratitudecomes in because we recognize
(06:26):
what really matters and what wereally care about.
So those moments of, of, ofimmense hardship are ironically
some of.
Of those which we, where we feelthe most gratitude.
I I, or like, like this kind ofsudden hardship, I think when it
really becomes inaccessible isprolonged depression.
I think that's when it becomesreally hard to access, uh, when
(06:48):
we're, or grief, uh, things likethat.
So, but back to your otherquestion, how did I come to it?
how did I come to it?
first came to meditation and tomindfulness.
Meditation was extremelytherapeutic to me in, uh, a
(07:09):
period of depression.
It really helped me dismantle mythinking and to I.
To start to rebuild new ways ofunderstanding myself and the
world that weren't sodestructive.
And so meditation was, wasreally like a lifesaver
Lee (07:23):
life.
Abbie (07:24):
And I had a meditation community.
I had my, my little communitycalled the Mindful Goods.
And then, uh, and then at somepoint, you know, I started using
gratitude in a way a lot ofpeople do.
You, you, you come to thisunderstanding that, wow, I can,
I can cultivate.
Wellbeing and positive emotionswithin myself, like no matter
(07:46):
what's happening in the world, Ihave that ability often, if not
always, to cultivate wellbeing.
And one of the ways to do thatis through gratitude.
I.
Lee (07:58):
It's really powerful, that taking back of control and it's
not, you know, this toxicpositivity thing.
It's not religion, you know,it's, it's something that almost
feels innate.
Is it innate to us to go togratitude?
Does it happen naturally?
Is it something we have topractice?
Abbie (08:19):
Uh, maybe both.
I mean, there are definitelydifferences in cultures around
this concept of gratitude.
Not everybody understands it thesame way.
Uh, sometimes when I've beengiving workshops, people would
say, you know, I wanted to thanksomebody, I wanted to thank my
parents.
And they got so awkward theyshut it down, you know, so it
(08:40):
opens up this space ofvulnerability that's not always
comfortable for everybody.
Uh, so.
know, I think if you're lookingat a sunset or you're looking at
something magnificent, thatgratitude connected to awe is
innate, there is another kind ofgratitude that can be practiced,
(09:03):
can be cultivated, can changewho we are, and can move us from
this space of depression toappreciation, even though life
is hard.
So all those things coexist.
Lee (09:17):
It is really interesting that almost conscious practice
of it, right?
And I even see this with myclients.
One of the.
Tools we use when someone is puton the spot or they feel like
they're in a moment of conflictor they feel like they might get
defensive.
One of the tools is to refocuson gratitude and to thank the
(09:39):
person for bringing it up, evenin a moment of conflict, to
thank them for theirperspective.
And that's not an original idea,but it somehow makes us feel
more powerful to cultivategratitude.
Have you found that?
Abbie (09:51):
I, I just like the way
Lee (09:53):
I like the way that you.
Abbie (09:54):
do that all the time, like, and I recommend it to
people all the time as well,that when you get into a space
of conflict, send that persongood energy, wellbeing,
happiness, wish them well, what,whatever the case may be,
because we have energy fieldsbetween all of us, right?
And so there's somethingpowerful.
I, I like the idea of thinkingthat you could do it in the
(10:15):
moment, and I think that'sdefinitely something that takes
practice, um, to be able toimmediately shift.
I, I think it's certainly,possible, but it, it would
probably take practice for a lotof people.
Even, even for me, it would takepractice.
Lee (10:28):
For me too, especially what you just said of, you know,
sending love to people who wishus harm or sending love to
people who we might not see eyeto eye with.
You know, in this moment of somuch immense division in our
society and so much growinghatred and fear, like how do we.
Practice that.
How do we protect our empathyand our hearts while still
(10:53):
connecting with others who mightdisagree with us?
Abbie (10:57):
I remember when Vladimir Putin and his.
His, whoever it is, invadedUkraine.
I thought, oh, I'm gonnapractice loving kindness on him
because in a way, we're, whatwe're hoping is that when we
practice, that people's heartswill open and we have to have
the belief that everybody hasthe potential for their heart to
(11:17):
open.
And, you know, in a, in atraditional.
Buddhist practice.
As I understand you begin thispractice by focusing on the
person who's easy to love.
And that's, you know, I did didit with people recently, and
they, they choose their pet for,for many people there's at least
something or someone that's easyto love.
And then we move to the neutralperson.
(11:39):
And the neutral person isreally.
Really powerful because itreminds us of all these people
in our midst who we don't give alot of our mental attention to,
who are present in our lives,who are potentially supporting
our lives in one way or another,adding to our lives.
Smile to us when we, at us, whenwe get our groceries.
(12:00):
So we'd be, you know, we pickone person, but then it's like
we bring that person to life ina way that they weren't.
So that's the second person.
And then as we progress, wechoose the person who we find
difficult to love.
And of course, that actuallyends up often being a family
member, someone really close tous who triggers us personally.
Uh, but I think that when.
(12:23):
When we keep practicing this,when this becomes like a skill
for, we can, we can extend thisto everybody and it does no harm
to us actually.
And it doesn't mean that we're,we're just complacent and we
accept things, but we're, we'restrong and we're resilient, and
we act from a wiser center.
Lee (12:42):
Yeah, it brings me, you know, back to thinking about
hope as an acts of resistance.
You know, hope as a verb.
Thinking about Audre Lorde,thinking about, you know, joy in
this moment, cultivating joy onpurpose in moments of turmoil
and.
And building empathy.
It, it brings me to empathy too.
(13:03):
And how does all of this relateto empathy?
Abbie (13:08):
Well, I mean, so in which context are you thinking?
Are you thinking of empathy forthe people that we feel I.
A sense of, of resistance towardor toward our fellow
Lee (13:19):
I.
Abbie (13:19):
at large, or what, what are you
Lee (13:21):
Or even ourselves.
I think in this moment, empathyis feeling hard in this moment.
It feels like we have to armorup and protect ourselves and
numb ourselves, and how can wepossibly have empathy in this
moment?
And we're seeing so muchvilification of the word empathy
(13:42):
we're seeing.
That word be, uh, attacked andweaponized.
Elon Musk said that empathy isthe greatest weakness of Western
civilization, and it sounds tome like even the practice of
gratitude is a, an empathypractice, but I wonder if you
see it that way.
Abbie (14:03):
Well, I don't, I don't think that empathy is always the
right response to everything
Lee (14:09):
Hmm.
Abbie (14:10):
well.
It's funny, like I was walkingdown the street saying to myself
the other day, would I, would
Lee (14:15):
Day.
Abbie (14:15):
be, I.
Like extremely positive.
'cause I meet people who areextremely positive and I find
them to be not empatheticbecause they're so positive that
they don't have the emotionalbandwidth for anything that
doesn't fit.
And then, or would I rather beextremely empathetic?
And the only answer I could comeup with is neither.
You have to have balance.
(14:36):
Like the answer's really in themiddle.
It's about.
like having the right responsefor the right time and to
cultivating like a sense ofbalance.
Because if you're overlyempathetic, you're not
effective, uh, and uh, and youdon't, you don't yourself that
space to have a.
(14:56):
A beautiful moment.
A meaningful moment becausethere's so much pain in the
world.
So it's really about cultivatingthe right, that right sense of
equanimity and balance.
And I once heard someone saythat mindfulness is a kind of
self empathy.
So you're, you're quiet, you'represent, and you are aware of
(15:17):
what is going on with you inthat moment, and you.
And you bring, if you can bringself-compassion to that, then
you're bringing a sense ofempathy to yourself, which I
think is really a, appropriateresponse when we're suffering
and we're struggling, and if wecould do all of this for five
year olds, we probably wouldn'tbe in this situation that we're
(15:38):
in.
Right now, which is that we haveadults who don't know how to
self-soothe.
They don't maybe know whatthey're feeling.
They don't know how to respond.
Uh, you know, I don't know, ina, in a, in a mature way to
their feelings.
So yeah, we have like thischaotic world for, for reasons
(16:01):
that seem relatively simple tosolve.
You know, it's like, it'srelatively simple.
Lee (16:07):
Yeah, totally.
And a lot of the people who arecurrently dismantling so much of
our, our society are in insecureand probably not connecting with
their own gratitude.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Abbie (16:22):
You know, and again, that's gonna go back to balance
too.
And so it, it's like we have tohave enough self-love and enough
confidence to be like, okay, Ihave a right to be here, and yet
I don't wanna be anybody's guru.
Lee (16:33):
Totally.
And so, Abbie, can I ask youabout gratitude buddies?
Tell us what this is.
Abbie (16:42):
Yeah, so Gratitude buddies really came out of my
mindfulness practice, uh, atsome and, and the mindfulness
practice of my community.
And at some point I wanted toput them together maybe as
meditation buddies where theycould be accountable to one
another, and they seemed not sointerested in that as they were
with gratitude buddies, likegratitude buddies.
(17:03):
I think that sounds fun.
People like it, it doesn't soundthat hard.
And so people, a few people sentit to friends of friends and,
and they, they wrote to me andsaid they wanted a gratitude
buddy.
And they wrote these verybeautiful reasons for wanting a
gratitude buddy.
Like they were separated fromtheir family.
And, uh, so I thought, oh, thisis something people are
interested in.
And.
And I decided to try to developit.
(17:25):
Uh, I don't have an engineeringbackground.
I don't have an engineer onstaff.
So the, the platform that Ibuilt initially as a way to
practice gratitude togetherdidn't live up to what I had
wanted it to.
And at the same time, there wassomething else that was making
me wanna shift.
I think it was because I wasgoing through my own period of
(17:45):
grief, around the time of, ofhaving gratitude buddies.
And though.
Gratitude was actually helpfulto me on some days.
On some days it, it was, I hadvery mixed feelings about it.
And then I was also looking atthe macro picture at what's
happening.
So this presentation that I'mgonna be delivering on Monday,
(18:08):
it's sort of looks at, forexample, how, How gratitude has
evolved in the workplacecultures.
So if we look post-industrialand if we look, uh, 1980s and
before this idea of, ofgratitude was sort of built
(18:28):
around transaction and builtaround loyalty.
Like, I'll give you a job, youstay with me for forever.
I'll give you a plaque after somany years, I'll give you a
pension.
So the, there wasn't this ideaof the emotional component.
Actively pursued.
And that started to shift inaround the nineties.
There was a bunch of books thatcame out, much more attention to
(18:51):
emotional intelligence in theinterpersonal way.
And then we moved from thatinto, uh, what started really
growing around 2010, which isthe inner work.
And the inner wellbeing becamereally popular in workplace
culture.
And so, now we're looking at,at.
Integration, but we have someadditional components.
(19:13):
And the additional componentsare, do these policies of
recognition and and innerwellness match the internal
human resources policies?
Do we have anti-bullying?
Do we have, uh, diversity, uh,we have, um, enough paid leave?
Do we have, you know, uh, so,and then.
(19:38):
The final component, I guess youmight say is the ESG, the
environment, the social and thegovernance, putting them all
together, which has also becamepopular in the last 10, 15
years.
we're looking at now gratitudeas a system.
And so for me, I'm, I'm seeing,well, what role can I play just
beyond inner wellbeing when Iknow we're all interdependent
(19:58):
and we're all connected and wehave these, this kind of
extractive capitalism that is.
Is going to have to evolve.
And so it's not that we're goingto get rid of wealth or that we
even should, but we have toexpand our understanding of what
resources look like, of whatsuccess looks like and how we
support each other.
(20:20):
And so now Gratitude buddieshas.
It has the inner wellbeingcomponent, but it also is about
the skill share and about comingtogether in, in a sense of
offering.
Like, I, I have this to offerand you have this.
So it's, it's not replacingmoney, it's expanding resources
so that, and maybe it, it buildsour businesses.
(20:40):
Somebody new sees what we cando, or we learn how to teach a
new skill and we're comingtogether.
And, and I like to keep itgrounded in mindfulness and
grounded in this kind of, um.
This idea that we're showing upfor each other.
We recognize each other ashumans first.
Because what will happen intraditional networking, and even
(21:00):
it happens in my platform, issomebody will say, yeah, but I
don't have anything to offer.
And I, I wanna say, well, whenyou're coming to this platform,
we see you first as as a human,and everyone has something to
offer.
Lee (21:13):
Wow, that is so powerful, Abbie.
And just thinking about it fromthe personal level to the
systemic level and you know,thinking about the way that
mindfulness and meditation haslike personally helped me rewire
my mind.
Or in your words, you said likedismantle thinking and create
new ways of understanding theworld that's less destructive.
(21:36):
Like that we can take that.
Micro moment and that we canstart to move it into the macro
societal issues because that iswhat's most important here,
right?
We can be mindful and we can bepracticing this personally, but
if we don't have ways to expandour resources and like have new
models of growth, as you say, Ithink it's so powerful i'm
(22:01):
curious too.
I think, you know, in thissociety here in the States, we
are certainly in this moment ofretraction and, you know, maybe
we were in this, you know,diversity, equity and inclusion,
ex exploration and thinkingabout, as you said, ESG and all
of these.
Growth models, but it feels likewe're now in a moment where it's
(22:23):
retracting and it's goingbackwards and it's regressing
and we, our systems are startingto reject the ex exact tools
that can help us progress andmove forward.
Are you feeling that in Europetoo?
Are you seeing that as a globalphenomenon or do you think that
this is going to be a blip andwe can continue to progress?
Abbie (22:46):
Well, europe, I think, I mean it's obviously got many
different cultures and manydifferent things happening, and
I think because many places inEurope have.
Deeper social roots.
It is a little bit different.
Like you don't, but, but youknow, these, these far right
parties are rising in manydifferent countries and, and
(23:07):
things are regressing,particularly in the US but in
other places as well.
And then what we like to think.
Is that, uh, growth is notlinear.
And so you have theseregressions, but they, they take
us to an even higher level.
And I think the question for usnow is that, uh, know, how, how
(23:32):
dark is it gonna get or how loware things gonna go?
But you know, one, one of thethings you said before about.
Empathy when, when we're talkingabout mindfulness, one of the
big components of mindfulness ismoving into non-judgment.
That is incredibly hard for thehuman to do.
The human loves to judge.
(23:55):
They love it.
And you know what?
You feel justified judgingSometimes.
You're like, well, I have tojudge this, or I have to, but,
but I don't know that that Idon't know that it helps.
Uh, so I, I say that like our,all of our crazy energy is now
coming to the surface.
(24:15):
There is a good side to ourcrazy underbelly getting
revealed because things need tobe healed and uh, and so that
has a positive to it as well.
But I think into a space ofcompassionate wise action is so
much more powerful.
Then judgment.
Lee (24:37):
Compassionate wise action.
Oh, I love that.
I just love the, the duality ofit, Abbie.
It feels really necessary today.
And you know, even the way youtalk about gratitude and the
gratitude buddies.
Platform.
It brings me to mutual aid andit brings me to what we're
(24:58):
seeing on the ground when thereis disaster and the ways that
communities come together.
What's happening in LA isincredibly beautiful and
powerful, the rapid responsework and the showing up for our
communities.
And so it brings us back to thatquestion, you know, is this
innate?
Is this something that.
We have in us in a natural way,and it's really beautiful to
(25:22):
hear about it too.
Abbie (25:25):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny because I think one
could maybe argue that Darwinismwas, was just a perspective in a
way like that there's anotherperspective that human beings
are just naturally meant tocollaborate, but we almost need
the right
Lee (25:40):
Wow.
Abbie (25:40):
incubator to, to collaborate and, and that
incubator, I think again, startswhen we're very small.
Lee (25:48):
Yeah, and I think that our universe could even be that
incubator if we could havesystems besides capitalism
because that of course reallyworks against so much of what
you're talking about.
Abbie (26:03):
Well, we're gonna have to find a, a way forward that
honors the designer who wants tomake a new dress.
We're gonna, you know, that hasthat creative impulse, but that,
that's not only rewardingshareholders, like that's where
the real rub is, as far as I seeit is only rewarding
shareholders once we, so what isthat gonna look like?
(26:25):
Is it gonna be employee ownedbusinesses?
Is it we, we have to, you know.
We need an age of enlightenmentbecause this is, is got, this
has got a time limit on it.
And so then I think of somethinglike gratitude buddies, well, at
least in the interim it, itoffers different models.
And it's funny'cause it's justgoing back to very ancient ways
(26:46):
of, of connecting.
But we're doing it now with moreconsciousness and more
intention.
So, um, yeah.
I love it actually, because,because I'm running it, I'm
like, oh, oh, that person needsbabysitting.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like, I wasn't expectingsomebody to put babysitting up
there, but I'm like, I think Icould figure out how to do that
(27:08):
for you.
So it is, it's
Lee (27:10):
Wow.
Abbie (27:10):
it's just shifting the way that we think actually, and,
and what's really available tous if, if we come together in
this kind of open hearted, goodspirited way, which is, I, I
think, you know, we, we must.
Trust people and, and then whenwe trust people, we bring out
the best in them and notblindly, not like an idiot, but
(27:30):
we must trust people, you know.
Lee (27:33):
Yeah, and you know, even what you're talking about with
having, moving away from beingjust dependent on shareholders
and this idea of like, how canwe all be the beneficiaries of
gratitude and generosity?
It brings me back to thinkingabout AI too, and how when we
are looking at technology, justas you know, a dehumanizing
(27:58):
factor, as a, you know.
Almost like it doesn't matterwhat the implications are.
We can build this for the sakeof building it.
We don't have to think about theeffect on human society.
You know, you as a speechwriter, right?
You might be thinking about AIin itself in multiple different
ways.
(28:19):
How can we contend with thistechnology bringing us into the
future in a way that might makegratitude or human connection
harder?
Abbie (28:31):
Oh, I think almost like if you go to like watch any
podcast, you'll have people ontwo sides of the AI fence and
uh, and so it's kind of like we,it's like, again, like we need
that wise middle because, so ingratitude buddies, there's, you
know, when in one of the coursesthere's a day.
(28:52):
Dedicated to what do youappreciate about how technology
has improved your life?
And one of the women approachedme afterwards and she said she,
the list is so long and it's soimmense.
And so if like you, if youmeditate on something like that,
you become aware that it's likeendless.
But yet she had been like,absolutely.
(29:14):
covered with fear about like theradio waves in our house, and
it's like, what are we lettingdominate our thinking?
You know, are we getting so.
Fear-based that we make, youknow, we turn this or, you know,
so I, again, it's not doingthings
Lee (29:32):
Huh.
Abbie (29:32):
but it's recognizing all the good that's there, all the
potential.
That's good.
And if it's your space toadvocate for, for turning this
into a more hu humanistic avenuethan to, to be active from a,
you know, a wise, empowered.
Optimistic space, I think, uh,because it's not gonna be
(29:53):
everybody's space to do that,but it will be the space of, of
some of us.
And so we all have our spacewhere we're contributing.
And, um, yeah.
So I, I do think there's adanger in getting so afraid of
everything, uh, that, that is,that's not good.
Yeah.
Lee (30:11):
Yeah.
And bringing us back to what yousaid about, you know,
dismantling our ways ofthinking, I think that a lot of
us are naturally drawn to fearand anxiety in moments of
tension and stress.
And so helping us, you know,refocus on the opposite and
using gratitude as thisconscious tool feels more
important than ever.
(30:33):
And I wonder, Abbie, how canpeople get involved with
gratitude buddies?
How can they learn more?
Abbie (30:40):
Well, so I just wanna say two things, is one is that,
well, yeah.
First thing is that sometimes Iwould go to gratitude.
If so, I'm like, I have my fearsand anxieties too.
And sometimes something likegratitude is helping and
sometimes it's the self empathyof mindfulness and sometimes it
is just crying sometimes cryingJust helps.
(31:01):
That's what the moment callsfor.
And sometimes even crying shiftsthat energy or dancing or
whatever, shifts that energy sothat you can access that
gratitude.
Because for a lot of times whenit can't be accessed, you need
other tools to get to it.
You may need to
Lee (31:18):
Hmm.
Abbie (31:18):
may need to dance, you may need to run whatever it is
that works.
So it, it can't, it's not alwaysaccessible to us as our, as our
first step.
but how can people, oh yeah.
They can come to gratitudebuddies.com and they can sign up
for a profile and it says Skillswap, but you can really swap
anything or just sign up for agratitude buddy or a mindful
(31:41):
networking.
It doesn't have to be for theskill swap, and everybody does
have something to offer.
If you do want to offersomething and there's courses,
there's a free course, that'sseven days, and I will have a
paid version at some point.
That will be the 30 days andhopefully more.
Specific, uh, uh, gratitudejourneys that are designed to
(32:03):
people's needs.
So for a couple after afternoonbaby, things like that, I
haven't gotten there yet, buthopefully that's coming.
Lee (32:11):
I love that, Abbie.
I love it and I really lovebeing on the platform and just
seeing what everyone has tooffer, but also there's just
this, you know, real comraderyand community around knowing
that you're with other peoplewho want to give gratitude and
want to practice this.
And that in itself makes me feelgrateful and it starts this real
positive feedback loop.
(32:32):
It's really powerful.
Abbie (32:35):
Yeah, that's cool.
Lee (32:37):
So.
Abbie (32:37):
you said, you're, you're showing up with these
like-minded people and, and youkind of know that, okay, this is
a space where I can approachpeople.
That's, that's nice.
Lee (32:47):
It's rare in this moment too, and, and it's not social
media too, it's off of socialmedia, which feels really good
and like a relief too.
Abbie (32:58):
You don't have to, don't have to update your feed.
I
Lee (33:04):
Thank goodness.
Abbie (33:06):
yeah, I would like people to have a space where they could
share like what they're workingon or what they, but I don't
know.
We'll keep thinking about that.
Yeah.
Lee (33:15):
I just wanna know for you personally, in this moment where
the onslaught of the news andeverything that we're hearing
can feel just completelyoverwhelming.
How are you staying groundedwith uncertainty and in
uncertain times?
Abbie (33:34):
So I don't at the news that much.
I mean, that is one thing.
I mean, I, I never watch it.
I don't have a television, butI, I, you know, I wanna know
what's happening, but Idefinitely don't, I.
Go too deeply into it.
One of the things I've startedto do recently is sort of
reconnect with my deepmeditation practice.
(33:54):
I haven't been doing it thesepast days, but for a few weeks I
was doing one hour, two hours aday.
And I
Lee (34:02):
Wow.
Abbie (34:02):
that's really something.
Other than the 10 minutes hereor there because you're, you
feel like you're getting to adeeper space in the
subconscious.
So I think a longer meditationgives you a different experience
than a short one.
And, um, and yeah, I also haveto show up for two kids, so I
(34:23):
kind of like, I know that,
Lee (34:25):
I know.
Abbie (34:25):
that they are.
Sensitive to my feelings.
So when I, when I need to crylike I did yesterday, I tell, I
tell them the context of why andwhat's, you know, age
appropriate and what's going onand that.
I think I even said to my son, Isaid, I.
I haven't been sleeping well andwhen I sleep well, I can handle
(34:47):
small things, but now I haven't.
And so it's harder for me tohandle them and you know, but
for the most part, for me, withthe kids, and we, we should be
this way for ourselves, it's the80 20 rule.
Like 80% of the time, you know,I'm in a good space so that they
can be, they can get that fromme.
I can't do it a hundred percent,but I can do it 80 more or
Lee (35:07):
Oh, I love that.
And it really like takes awaythe perfectionism to of 80% is,
is enough.
I'm enough.
And you know, it really kind ofgives some relief.
Sitting with you.
Abbie today is just bringing meback to 10 years ago when we
first met, and I have not beensitting.
(35:29):
In meditation.
I've been meditating andpracticing mindfulness in so
many other ways, but I, it'sbeen quite some time since I've
sat and after being with youtoday.
I think I need to sit, I think Ineed to start going back to that
in this moment and just havingthat deeper stillness and
silence.
(35:50):
So thank you for that reminder.
I'm really grateful to you,Abigail Somma, thanks for
everything that you do.
Thanks for teaching me aboutmindfulness and gratitude.
Abbie (36:02):
And thank you.
Thank you for
Lee (36:03):
I.
Abbie (36:04):
I mean, this has been such a nice conversation, uh,
for me and you've given me thespace to share some of these
ideas and I really appreciateit.
It's really cool.
Lee (36:13):
Thanks, Abbie.
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