October 6, 2025 • 45 mins
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence. Today I'm sitting down with my dear friend Ssanyu Birigwa, a Columbia-trained narrative medicine clinician and 80th generation indigenous bone healer whose practice bridges ancestral wisdom with embodied presence.
In this conversation, Ssanyu shares how deep listening creates reciprocity between ourselves and others, why taking off our masks is both necessary and sometimes unsafe, and how connecting with ancestral knowledge can help us slow down in this fast world.
We explore the intersection of narrative medicine and indigenous healing practices, discuss why qualitative research matters as much as quantitative data, and examine how high-achieving individuals can access the tools within themselves to heal and accelerate beyond their wildest dreams.
In This Episode:
- How Narrative Medicine teaches clinicians and leaders to be truly present with others
- The practice of unmasking and why safety must come first
- What it means to be a bone healer and how this lineage guides Ssanyu's work
- Why our evolution doesn't require more input—it requires wisdom about when to engage and when to simply be
- How to leverage resources collectively so more of us can feel safe taking off the mask
- The power of sharing lived stories as an antidote to institutional silencing
Ssanyu was born with healing hands—the proud descendant of Ugandan bone healers dating back more than 80 generations. Growing up between Newton, Massachusetts and East Africa, she witnessed the precision of Western medicine alongside the wisdom of ancestral healing practices that had sustained her lineage for centuries.
After a health crisis left her partially paralyzed and the death of her uncle and surrogate father, she began asking the questions that would shape her life’s work: How do we listen to our bodies to understand the truth of our emotions? How do we heal physical pain by accessing the stories trapped within us? How do we bridge clinical rigor with ancestral knowing?
This inquiry led her to Columbia University’s Narrative Medicine program, where she earned her master’s degree and received the 2016-2017 Narrative Medicine Fellowship. She now serves as Adjunct Professor at Columbia and lectures at Columbia Irving Medical Center on the intersection of spirituality and health.
As Co-founder & CEO of Narrative Bridge, Ssanyu brings narrative medicine training to organizations seeking to integrate deep listening and embodied wisdom into leadership. She created the Pause3™ Method framework rooted in her lineage of bone healing and narrative medicine and leads the Resonance Lab, an annual practicum for leaders integrating these modalities into their own work.
She has lectured and taught at institutions including the Sorbonne, Johns Hopkins, Kripalu, NYU, and led programs for the Soros Foundation in Uganda and Rwanda. She also maintains a private practice for leaders. This work is one of refinement, excavating what lives beneath burnout, disconnection, and inherited patterns to restore embodied presence and ancestral coherence.
Through The Sunday Pause, her weekly newsletter, she shares contemplations on narrative medicine, ancestral healing, and what the bones already know.
In Luganda, her father’s tongue, her name means “happiness, joy”—the energy she brings to this work and to the people she serves.
Substack: @ssanyubirigwa & @resonancelab
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee (00:05):
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence.
I'm your host Lee, and today Iget the pleasure of sitting down
with my dear friend, SsanyuBirigwa.
Ssanyu is a Columbia trainednarrative medicine clinician and
an 80th generation indigenousbone healer.
(00:26):
Ssanyu's practice serves thosewho understand that healing
requires both ancestral wisdomand embodied presence, a
reconciliation available nowhereelse.
Ssanyu work is driven by a corephilosophy that we have the
ability to heal ourselves.
(00:46):
I first met Ssanyu on a verycold, dark morning about 10
years ago, and meeting her hasbrought so much light into my
life.
I'm excited to talk to Ssanyutoday about how we can heal
ourselves.
How we move through this momentwith as much compassion and
connection as we can and whatthe future brings, when we can
(01:09):
allow our stories to healourselves.
Welcome Ssanyu.
Ssanyu (01:14):
Thank you Lee.
It's so great to be here.
Lee (01:17):
I have felt drawn to you and your work since I met you
over 10 years ago, and I waswondering, can you tell our
audience a bit about who you areand the work you do?
Ssanyu (01:28):
Um, and I want to say the energy that you and I had
when we first met Felt veryancient.
And like, I've known this humanbefore, you know?
Um.
Definitely a place for me toreflect in on what my work is,
(01:51):
and part of my work is makingconnection, being really
intentional about theconnections I do make too, and I
bring that.
Discernment, I think might be agood word to use to my how I
(02:15):
environments, conversations.
Actually move the needle intodoing the work.
You know, so many of us haveexperienced probably in our
lives many times over, um, jobswhere you are making you
actually use the things that youmake and.
(02:39):
I find that the work ofnarrative storytelling, the
clinical practice of narrativemedicine, which is a, a, a
practice, a mythology, um, a, amethod to help clinicians and
physicians to be present withtheir Patients, and true
(03:03):
compassion, and true listening,deeply listening principle of
narrative medicine, clinicalpractice.
And from that training, I'vebeen able to witness what to be
present, you know, be in aboardroom present, um, where
you're.
Actively listening to the other.
(03:25):
Why?
Because you have the toolswithin yourself to deeply listen
to yourself, which creates thisbeautiful reciprocity of
listening and receiving andgiving, and listening,
receiving, Just like thisconstant movement.
I, I liken it to the figure theinfinity side, the lame skit,
(03:49):
like the ways in which thatmovement is drawn up and over
and down and around.
And where can that possibly takeus.
It takes us somewhere because Icurious beings and when we
become curious from a veryauthentic place, we, we are
(04:12):
exposing ourselves.
And when we expose ourselves,others to see us in a light.
I hope that is quite authenticand.
We are being brave about thatauthentic part and doctors and a
(04:38):
what I am helping system is toto be with the other, to have.
Been told because other momentsin were most focused on the
chart or on the diagnosis or onthe illness opposed to the
(05:03):
wholeness and fullness of thisindividual who carries with them
story carries with themexperiences that probably
attribute to some of thediscomfort or the dis-ease they
are feeling now in this doctor'soffice.
So what do I do?
I, I am an architect.
I liken that to looking atarchitecture framework, one that
(05:27):
really allows and institutionsto fulfill their mission with I
am a deep listener.
I am an empath.
from a bone healers who believedand understood the of wisdom in
(05:50):
the body and the and that.
that we.
Can not pull from, but connectwith.
So we're connecting with thisembodied information that truly,
(06:11):
I believe us understand more soOther people's lives and our
lives and our family's lives.
Um, and that to me is aboutcreating healthier communities.
Lee (06:26):
Wow, Ssanyu and that reciprocity, that energy that
you're talking about, I felt itso strongly.
Not only the first morning thatI met you, but when you've come
to my town to work with localactivists in my community, I
felt it.
At every networking event we'vebeen to together every time I've
(06:47):
seen you speak and work, and canyou talk about.
Like who you serve.
I hear the work around narrativemedicine, but I know that your
work goes so much beyondhealthcare.
Ssanyu (06:59):
Yes it does.
And thank you for, for.
Guiding that question becausewhat's really important for me
and my purpose is to bring workof narrative medicine.
Um, I like to describe it from,from the gates, you know, of
Columbia.
Um,'cause there are only twoplaces in the world that you can
(07:22):
get a master's in science degreein narrative medicine out into
the world.
So you just mentioned I workwith local activists, whether
it's here in the us.
Or on the continent of Africa.
Um, I work with that focus in onauthenticity, trust, resilience
(07:43):
within the workplace, withinleadership models.
work with individuals, um, onhow to refine the tools, um,
that they have in their toolboxas to.
The ways in which they havedeveloped their own leadership
skills and to looking to refineand maybe even deepen into, um,
(08:09):
rituals and practices that aregoing to move them in the next
iteration of their lives.
Um, whether it's their personallives or professional lives.
I work with young people.
I love mentoring, um, youngpeople in the world to.
Find, you know, what is theirpurpose?
(08:29):
How are they going to achievetheir, their desires and create
the vision of success forthemselves?
Um, using the tools of, ofstorytelling, of indigenous
knowledge and wisdom andpractices to really be the
highest performer that one canbe.
I mean, you know, Lee, we.
(08:52):
We have met, um, in spaces andplaces where we've watched
people literally perform, whichthey think is attracting, you
know, but in fact it'srepelling.
Um, you know, so I work withpeople to take off the mask, um,
(09:14):
to understand that.
Maybe they have been wearing amask all this time, that which
they thought they were beingtruthful and authentic with
themselves and others.
Um, and that's just a really, Ithink, wonderful place to be.
Um, I was just working with a,um, an individual this
afternoon, and so I doone-on-one work, not just, you
(09:35):
know, community building and,um, you know, uh.
Corporate, you know, uh,workshops and trainings.
Um, I do work with, you know,individuals one-on-one, and we
talked about fear and basis ofpower that comes from being in a
(09:57):
place of fear, when we canacknowledge we are fear, we, we
are fearing something, and thenwe just go into that fear
nonetheless.
Like we just go there.
Um.
And what, what happens when wedo that, can be such a, a
teacher to us and alsoilluminate far greater
(10:20):
experiences than we probablycould have ever imagined.
That is for our highest andgreatest good.
That's that, that's, that's thedeliciousness I think of the
work that I do is that I get tobe a witness of not just.
The other, but myself this spaceof making connection deeply,
(10:45):
listening to the other andhaving the willingness and
capacity to sit in my owndiscomfort so I can hold space
for an individual who might bemoving through discomfort
themselves.
is a reason why I did not becomea physician.
(11:08):
One, I don't test well, but two,being a physician, I am bonded
and blinded by an oath whichdoes not allow me to share my
own personal stories.
(11:29):
to me, I think is the mostpotent piece of the work that I
do, is I can.
one story and two, walk besidethem and share parts of my lived
experience that perhaps mayinspire them, feel a little bit
(11:50):
more supported, curious, andthose opportunities to share my
personal story as a way toconnect.
Other, to be able to thenusually what happens, receive
(12:11):
the other's story in kind.
and is there a way that we canstart to use that experience of
telling, receiving story a toolin making change in the world?
You know, do things differently.
(12:32):
we just have to.
we were taught, even as youngpeople, is useful for youth
right now.
Lee (12:43):
Right, right, right.
I keep saying to so many of myclients, like, what got us here
is not what's gonna get us tothe next place.
Right.
And you're even what you justsaid is, again, that
reciprocity, this exchange, thisdynamic movement and you know
what you are speaking to is likeour whole selves, right.
(13:03):
Of helping people take off thosemasks.
And so much of our American.
Culture, especially at work, isabout really like siloing
ourselves, right?
And like leaving some of usoutside.
And of course that's impactingunderrepresented people, most of
all.
And it's benefiting certainpeople more than others.
But can you talk about thisunmasking, and particularly in
(13:27):
the context of work or the otherroles that we play, and why is
this important?
Ssanyu (13:32):
Yes, and I'll begin with a short story.
The practice of narrativemedicine is to use art and music
and prose literature, the thevoice even to elicit something
within us that has been perhapsdormant.
(13:55):
So in my practice, whether it's.
In university settings orone-on-one teaching or trainings
in different institutions andindustries.
I'm always pulling out somethingthat I hope that can resonate
with There is a poem by MayaAngelou.
(14:16):
We wear the Masks and sherecites it, and you can find it
on YouTube, and I find it verypowerful, not only to listen and
watch her recite this poem, butto then read the poem itself.
And so why I bring this processout to sit with.
(14:40):
Her words, the tone that sheuses, and then to then read the
words is because many of us haveput on masks with our family, we
have been told we are marrying amask when we may think we are
not.
(15:00):
We literally wore masks.
From 2020 to 2023, of us I seeare still wearing masks.
I live in New York City.
I'm seeing witnessing peoplewith the masks on.
What does a mask do?
Well, it, it covers somethingup.
(15:24):
It hides These masks that we areusing, the, the, the proverbial
mask and also the physical maskis, is, is a tool for silence,
So how many of us have felt wehave been silenced, or we are
(15:50):
actively silencing ourselvesbecause we're either too afraid.
To use our voice too, afraid toshare our opinions and ideas do
not feel supported if we do dothat, is be expressive and
(16:13):
vibrant individuals who havesomething to say, aren't worried
about saying the right thing,but more so want to have
dialogue.
Right.
know, I shared this with you andwith others about, you know, my
first experience in corporateAmerica.
I was working in IT and beingthe liaison between the business
(16:38):
sector because I understood bothlanguages, right?
So there is a language thatfinance has that technology not.
Information departments do notuse, shall I say?
And sometimes there needs to bea translator.
Well, I remember feeling sodisillusioned, you know, I was
(17:03):
young.
I was like, oh, I can translateand help these people work
together.
Well, quite frankly, these twopeople had, had, had had put on
a mask for As opposed to takingoff their mask and being like,
well, let's see how wecommunicate with one another.
Forget about Ssanyu, honestly.
Like, but let's, let's take offthese masks and just figure out
(17:24):
how to communicate.
And, and, and we don't often dothis when we're trying to effect
change in the or in aninstitution because we have
believe that what got us heregoing to get us to the next
phase.
actually do believe what got ushere is going to get us to the
(17:48):
next phase.
Lee (17:49):
Hmm.
Ssanyu (17:49):
you just said you tell your clients what got
Lee (17:53):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (17:53):
is not going to get us to the next place.
Lee (17:57):
Right.
Ssanyu (17:57):
That's the truth.
the truth of things, then hidingbehind what we call, you know,
the mass that Maya Andrew wasspeaking of.
could also be laughter.
How many times have we foundourselves laughing at someone's
(18:18):
when truly we are uncomfortable
Lee (18:21):
Oh yeah.
Ssanyu (18:23):
with that comment?
Lee (18:24):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (18:26):
How many of us, and these are all embodied
experiences that are happeningin real time as we are using our
words.
Because the body
Lee (18:40):
Absolutely.
Ssanyu (18:42):
keeps score.
Lee (18:43):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (18:45):
So I work with individuals one-on-one.
Often I will weave this into thetrainings that I, that I give at
different institutions and, youknow, boards, et cetera,
because.
To arrive in a place with peoplethat you may or may not know
very well is very important tome.
(19:06):
So we are all at the same, whatI would say, energetic level.
At the same place.
We're arriving at the sameplace, whether it's location,
literally, or physically.
The chair that you're sittingin, let's recognize where we
are.
I don't know if you re recall.
(19:27):
you know.
Years ago, like, you know, youget called into these meetings,
what have you, and before thelast person has even sat down,
the person is like, you know,who's leading the meeting?
It's like, okay, so let's getright to it.
Lee (19:38):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (19:39):
And I'm like, okay, shoot.
Can I just get comfortable in myseat?
Can I, you know,
Lee (19:44):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (19:45):
can, can I like let go of what I just did 10 seconds
ago?
No.
Jump
Lee (19:51):
But that would assume, right?
That would assume that we arefully human and are fully
ourselves at work.
And there seems to be this likeongoing idea that we're not
allowed to be fully ourselves.
Right?
Ssanyu (20:05):
Uh,
Lee (20:06):
And how do we.
How do we encourage thisunmasking when like the senior
leaders or many others arefighting dead set against it.
Ssanyu (20:18):
so dead set.
The fight is very, um.
Real, as we will say, right?
It's, it's, it's something that
Lee (20:25):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (20:26):
feeling.
Lee (20:27):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (20:28):
and I don't have the answer to that, what I We being
asked to make choices everysingle day, and my goal is to
help individuals, communities,to make the right choice.
(20:50):
Every day for themselves, fortheir communities, and sometimes
to keep one safe, we will haveto put that mask on.
we've seen this in differentorganizations, different
communities, particularly the.
In the Bipoc and the LGBTQ pluscommunity, we've seen that
(21:11):
sometimes it's not actually safeto take the mask off, anything
that I can do to to be ofallyship and support to
individuals who might not feelsafe to take the mask off, then
I believe I made the rightchoice for me and that person.
(21:34):
So if we can.
Then get more of us who helpindividuals take the mask off.
Then we have like a whole, wegot a whole team.
So can we create like a team?
Can we start to create like, youknow, I'm, you know, I think eso
(21:54):
esoterically sometimes of like,can we create a whole country,
like, you know, like enough ofus to just be
Lee (22:01):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (22:02):
you feel safe.
To take
Lee (22:05):
Hmm.
Ssanyu (22:05):
off and maybe
Lee (22:07):
Right.
Ssanyu (22:07):
that's like leveraging resources from me instead of you
today, Lee, because
Lee (22:15):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (22:16):
safe for you to use your resource today, but it's safe
for me to use my
Lee (22:22):
That's the thing is the safety.
And we can see it inorganizations, we can see it in
community, and there's so manyreasons to not feel safe right
now.
And so I, I understand the needfor protection, and yet I know
that our future is in ourcontinued connection and as you
(22:43):
say, embodied presence.
Ssanyu (22:45):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think of my mother and myfather at this time, honestly,
because I've witnessed my fathergo through war.
So my father's Ugandan, and um,he fought in the bush.
Um.
Back in the eighties to free hiscountry.
(23:09):
And there's risk that comes withthat, right?
Like there's deep risk here.
You're, you're, you're in thejungle.
You're, you're fighting, youknow, people that you've never
met before.
you could do what Well, to feelfreedom that that was, that was.
thing I think of my mother whofought against discrimination
(23:34):
and became the first in manyfields, um, you know, she was
one of the first women of colorto be hired by Pan-American
Airlines back in the sixties,early seventies.
She was the be, you know, runnerup in these different, you know,
pageants that she did in, in, inhigh school right before
college.
Um, seeing where she was being.
(23:57):
Stripped away of what was hers,um, because of the color of her
sin.
I've witnessed my, you know,self growing up in different, in
a different time where we werethe first, you know, family of
color in the neighborhood andhaving to, um, contend with
(24:17):
people calling me names,particularly the end name, and
my mother saying, you know.
What to, what, what to do whenSomeone says and I was like, oh,
for real.
Like, but that
Lee (24:34):
Yes.
Ssanyu (24:35):
to, right, that was her way to empower me with my
Lee (24:38):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (24:39):
So I still sit with, I don't have the actual answer,
but I have ways to, to, to chipat the ish to chip at the.
The, the, the, the bedrock wherewhat we did to get us here needs
(25:03):
to be actually destroyed.
Lee (25:05):
Oh wow.
Wow.
And it, thank you so much forsharing your experience because
it helps me understand thiswonderful intersection between
narrative medicine, which you'vetold us about, and then that you
are an 80th generationindigenous bone healer.
(25:26):
Can you talk about thatancestry?
That lineage that.
Gift a bit more and tell us moreabout your healing.
Ssanyu (25:34):
Yes, I, I understood this lineage when I was a kid.
Um, you know, going back to EastAfrica, for the summers.
I lived there for several yearsduring middle school and high
school.
Um, so I, I was fortunate enoughto, to connect with my ancestry
(25:58):
land.
Um, we have.
place that has a, most of allthe generations actually.
Yeah, the tombs.
We have tombs there as well.
So like I could visually see myancestors, if that makes any
sense.
Visually, see where they'reburied and traditionally be.
(26:23):
you come into the country, oneof the first things you're
supposed to do is pay yourrespects.
So I like to like, okay, within48 hours, 72, at the most, I
must make a journey home.
A journey home to our land, tothe burial ground, respect.
I have been charged with thatritual ever since I was a kid
(26:47):
and.
Also too had experiences as achild, as a young adult, um,
where I could feel things, seethings, um, think of something,
dream of it, and it happened thenext day.
Um, feel as if I'm being spokento by, you know, someone who
I've never met, but I felt likeI knew very much so, and that
(27:09):
would happen whilst I was.
Walking down a street orswimming.
I, I, I was a competitiveswimmer, so I would often have,
um, information given to me inorder to figure out how to win
(27:30):
the race.
That's actually when I firstreally understood like there's
some, there's something biggerthan me that's happening within
me or around me, and I didn'treally have language for it.
what I will say is that my.
Parents both believe deeply inspirit and in in divine love.
And in that being who we aredoesn't live outside of us, we,
(27:52):
it's in us.
And so being ushered intodifferent spaces of prayer, of
meditation, um, of, of giving.
Libations to the ancestors, Imean.
(28:14):
That's a whole nother storythough.
The story of the bone healercame when I woke up, paralyzed
from my fingers to my shouldersabout 15, 13 years ago, and I
didn't know what had happened.
It was very scary to wake up notbeing able to use a part of your
body.
I remember speaking to myfather, who is the chief of the
(28:37):
bone healers at that time.
You know, when you know things,but you don't really like.
Embody them or, or make note.
You know, you hear the thing,the the thing, the thing is
being told to you and you'relike, mm-hmm I understand.
And then you keep going.
You just keep moving on tosomething else in life, right?
So I understood that my fatherwas the chief, but I didn't
(29:00):
really connect to it being ofthe bone healers of this
shamanic lineage that I comefrom until I woke up paralyzed
That was when the student wasready for the teacher moment.
And as I'm, you know, there's alot that I went through during
(29:21):
this time.
It was about five months of, of,paralysis and going to the
doctors, not getting diagnosed,coming back, doing acupuncture.
You know, there's, a wholenother story in itself as well,
but.
for me to stay focused on thebone healer itself and that
experience of now being usheredinto the lineage when I was
(29:49):
ready to hear what I needed tohear.
And that's when my father openedup to me and for me the stories
that I needed to hear, therituals I needed to, to connect
with.
Um, and that's.
When the journey began of mereturning home to East Africa to
Uganda, particularly with adifferent intention, and that
(30:11):
intention was to connect withthe soil in a different way for
me to connect with the ancestorsand, understand there is a
lineage that I'm a part of thathas been asked by the community
to help them.
(30:32):
Be, well, know the story of theBone Healer is in the Buganda
clan, which is where I'm from.
We have a king and the Kabaka ishis name, and the Kabaka lives
in a palace.
And in this palace he would.
Hit his servants and sometimesbreak their bones.
(30:53):
When that would happen, theywould call in my family, my
lineage to not just put theirbones back together, but to
serve their spirit and help thembeyond the hurt and the dis-ease
and the trauma.
And so there's a story of thebone healers.
We connect with the moon starsand.
(31:16):
Cosmos, that which directlyconnected to our home that we
call swe.
which illuminates and gives usinformation that allows us to
move through the world to helpothers.
And that literal house of iswhere people of the village like
to sleep in.
(31:36):
If they were feeling ill or.
You know, sometimes one wouldsay they are, you know,
possessed or, you know, um,maybe there is issue with, you
know, fertility with a, with afamily member.
They would come to our houseand, and sleep there, and the,
the stories are, they wouldleave that house and they would
feel better.
(31:57):
Now, these stories when told inmy father's tongue of Uganda,
they're, you know.
Also illuminating some parableshere, right?
And illuminating some lessons tobe learned.
And part of that bone healer inme is to share knowledge and
(32:18):
wisdom of these parables thatwhich my ancestors left to then
guide.
you, me, those whom we love areconnecting with back to that
indigenous knowledge and wisdomthat which we all come from.
We all have it.
And that's part of the BoneHealers mission is to be the
(32:43):
architect or the guide back towho we truly are.
And from that process of doingthat, we do heal.
Internally, I, I do work withindividuals who have literal
ailments in the body and thebones, and also healing the
spirit, excuse me, healing thesoul.
(33:08):
Learning about in which we candown and methodically make
better decisions because we'renot rushing through.
The acceleration that life isespecially in the Western world,
(33:29):
you know, there is thecombination of true.
Fixing of an ailed body throughthe bones and to connecting to
the past trauma and stories thatlive in our body, blood and
bones, order to accelerate themental, spiritual soul that we
(33:54):
all can do.
We just.
Sometimes don't know how to pullup those tools with from within
us.
And I find that high achievingindividuals who learn these
practices are able to not onlyaccelerate beyond their wildest
dreams, they're also teaching itto those who they're connected
(34:15):
to.
So this knowledge and wisdom isbeing shared.
It's not supposed to be siloedin an institution.
And I can say that by being apart of one, and I'm gonna use
me as an example to answer thequestion around how do we take
(34:39):
the mask off?
I just giggled after I said Itoo am a part of an institution.
Why?
Well, that's a mass thatsometimes I find myself
contending with.
Of the professor lecturer andthe person Ssanyu.
And what I, what I have donemore often than not, excuse me,
(35:10):
is integrate the two.
And because I'm sitting.
And reflecting on what it doesmean to be a part of this
institution, uncomfortablebecause my institution is unable
(35:32):
to support the very people thatare doing the good work, and
that saddens me, So here in lieswhat we're doing now We're
talking, right?
We're connecting.
You have a platform and we needto continuously share our lived
(35:53):
stories.
Um.
We, we must use technology anddifferent ways to make
connections globally withindividuals who are doing the
work as well.
(36:14):
You know, and what is doing thework well, being in places where
you may feel comfortable shakingthings up.
That's doing the work.
Or maybe you're there to supportand, and bring safety for
individuals who want to shakethings up, but don't necessarily
(36:35):
feel they can alone perhaps thestory that you share that gives
someone the opportunity to feelcapable of using their voice.
Their authentic, true voice tospeak up not only for the other,
(36:58):
but for themselves.
We can continuously do differentthings, right?
We need to, we need to readstories of people doing some,
you know, simple.
Maybe it's not even doing big,you know, audacious things.
Maybe it's just simply beingavailable for someone to talk.
(37:19):
Through their issues.
You know, maybe that's the,maybe that's the big innovation
that we need to, you know, focuswhich is deeply listening,
asking people to share theirstories, asking people to, you
know, share their community andconnections and contacts.
(37:40):
Remember the Rolodex back in theday.
I, you know, I think.
Lee (37:44):
Yeah,
Ssanyu (37:45):
Some of my mentees would not know what a Rolodex is, but
you know,
Lee (37:48):
I.
Ssanyu (37:50):
we share that that Rolodex of information and
context of individuals who fifinancially can help us move the
needle forward.
This is what we do need.
We need finances, we needsupport.
We need collaborations.
We need partnerships withorganizations that are willing
(38:11):
to do things differently.
We are in a time where, like yousaid, what got us here is not
going to get us to the nextphase, next place.
So do we really believe ininnovation then?
And if an organization does,then prove it.
Hire individuals that don't dothings the same way that you do,
(38:33):
but get results and they canprove those results.
You know, there's a lot of, theclinical space it's about, you
know, quantitative research.
Well, qualitative research isvery important too.
The collection of individualstories and understanding their
lived experiences is just asgood as the quantitative data.
Love it.
I love it when they both cometogether.
(38:55):
That is
Lee (38:55):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (38:57):
but it's just as strong.
That qualitative method just asstrong and potent.
As the numbers,
Lee (39:05):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (39:06):
is.
Lee (39:08):
Yeah.
It's what brings our humanityand our integrity, as you said.
Ssanyu (39:13):
Yes.
Yeah.
Lee (39:17):
I think that's what has moved me so much about your work
is that.
It is about the, the, again,that reciprocity, it's about the
energy between us.
It's about our own relationshipto ourselves and our
communities.
And if it, is it okay if I quoteyou?
Ssanyu (39:37):
Yeah.
Lee (39:39):
you, you wrote in a newsletter a few weeks ago, you
wrote, your evolution doesn'trequire more input.
It requires more wisdom aboutwhen to engage and when to
simply be.
And that is what I've learnedfrom you, my friend is a deep
listening and a, a stillness andan ability to be.
(40:02):
More present in myself and withothers, and I'm so grateful for
your work and for your human andfor who you are in the world.
Ssanyu (40:16):
Thank you, Lee.
I that and appreciate.
The energy that which we areexchanging and allowing to occur
between right now.
(40:36):
And, excuse me, what we decidedwhen we first met, which was.
Connection was important, and soI've learned so much by being
connected with you by cominginto your community and
connecting with your communitymembers and the leaders who love
where they live and want to seetheir community healthy, and
(41:00):
also learning from you and beingable to.
Ask questions and get curiousand ideate with you and expand
both our missions in this worldso we can be louder.
I think that's also too the, theintention.
(41:24):
I think that's
Lee (41:25):
So we can be louder.
Ssanyu (41:26):
we can be louder and I think maybe that is
Lee (41:30):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (41:31):
part of the antidote.
your have an answer to it, butperhaps there's an antidote,
which is we gotta get louder.
Lee (41:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And a big part of that I thinkis through the tools and the
methods that you teach.
It's really being able to sit inourselves so that we can amplify
Ssanyu (41:57):
Yeah.
Lee (41:58):
ourselves and each other.
Ssanyu (41:59):
Yeah.
Lee (42:00):
And I will say my friend, we met in the most corporate
setting I could have possiblyimagined, and I think both of us
were like, get me the hell outtahere.
You know?
We were like, we were drawn toeach other's energy.
I think because we are twopeople who have really decided
to take off the mask.
(42:22):
And it's really powerful to justto be in space with you and to
know you, and I'm so gratefulfor you.
Ssanyu (42:30):
Thank you, Lee.
Thank you for creating the spaceto share and connect, um, not
just with you, but those wholisten to your, to your podcasts
and who follow the work thatyou're doing in the world.
Um.
That's probably the, the bestway to get loud is to have, um,
(42:56):
your friends, your peers, yourcolleagues, amplify the work
that we're doing.
So thank you.
Lee (43:02):
Oh, and speaking of Ssanyu, how can people find you in your
work?
Ssanyu (43:07):
So you can find ssanyubirigwa.com.
Um, and I really am loving theenergy of LinkedIn.
Um, so you can find me onLinkedIn at Ssanyu Birigwa, I do
some, you know.
within a container ofindividuals who want to refine
their toolbox, as I say.
(43:28):
Um, and who are really lookingat that, you know, um, way in
which they're showing up forthemselves and others as a
powerful, um, part of themselvesin this resonance lab that I
have, um, that we meet twice amonth and it's a place of
connection and community workingwithin the tools of narrative
(43:48):
medicine and indigenous wisdom.
And then you can also find meon.
Substack.
Um, if anyone is interested inreading some of my own personal
musings, um, not, they're notedited down for like, you know,
newsletters or they're justreally just my thoughts and
connections and oftentimes, um,channeled wisdom and knowledge
that, um, I'm sharing with theworld.
(44:09):
So lots of different places.
Um, and of course email.
Um, I do answer my email.
And I am proud of that.
So I do get reflections backfrom individuals who, um, read
my newsletters.
I send out a Sunday pausenewsletter every Sunday.
I've been doing this for aboutsix months now.
(44:31):
um, that's also another way to,to feel into the work and to the
powerfulness of, um, the potent.
Energy that comes from slowingdown by taking a pause, by
taking a breath and focusing ononeself.
Lee (44:54):
Potent energy of slowing down, and I will be sure to link
to all of those links in theshow notes.
Please find Ssanyu work.
It is so powerful and so neededin this moment, and thank you so
much for coming on the podcastmy friend.
Ssanyu (45:12):
Thank you, Lee.
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence.
I'm your host Lee, and today Iget the pleasure of sitting down
with my dear friend, SsanyuBirigwa.
Ssanyu is a Columbia trainednarrative medicine clinician and
an 80th generation indigenousbone healer.
(00:26):
Ssanyu's practice serves thosewho understand that healing
requires both ancestral wisdomand embodied presence, a
reconciliation available nowhereelse.
Ssanyu work is driven by a corephilosophy that we have the
ability to heal ourselves.
(00:46):
I first met Ssanyu on a verycold, dark morning about 10
years ago, and meeting her hasbrought so much light into my
life.
I'm excited to talk to Ssanyutoday about how we can heal
ourselves.
How we move through this momentwith as much compassion and
connection as we can and whatthe future brings, when we can
(01:09):
allow our stories to healourselves.
Welcome Ssanyu.
Ssanyu (01:14):
Thank you Lee.
It's so great to be here.
Lee (01:17):
I have felt drawn to you and your work since I met you
over 10 years ago, and I waswondering, can you tell our
audience a bit about who you areand the work you do?
Ssanyu (01:28):
Um, and I want to say the energy that you and I had
when we first met Felt veryancient.
And like, I've known this humanbefore, you know?
Um.
Definitely a place for me toreflect in on what my work is,
(01:51):
and part of my work is makingconnection, being really
intentional about theconnections I do make too, and I
bring that.
Discernment, I think might be agood word to use to my how I
(02:15):
environments, conversations.
Actually move the needle intodoing the work.
You know, so many of us haveexperienced probably in our
lives many times over, um, jobswhere you are making you
actually use the things that youmake and.
(02:39):
I find that the work ofnarrative storytelling, the
clinical practice of narrativemedicine, which is a, a, a
practice, a mythology, um, a, amethod to help clinicians and
physicians to be present withtheir Patients, and true
(03:03):
compassion, and true listening,deeply listening principle of
narrative medicine, clinicalpractice.
And from that training, I'vebeen able to witness what to be
present, you know, be in aboardroom present, um, where
you're.
Actively listening to the other.
(03:25):
Why?
Because you have the toolswithin yourself to deeply listen
to yourself, which creates thisbeautiful reciprocity of
listening and receiving andgiving, and listening,
receiving, Just like thisconstant movement.
I, I liken it to the figure theinfinity side, the lame skit,
(03:49):
like the ways in which thatmovement is drawn up and over
and down and around.
And where can that possibly takeus.
It takes us somewhere because Icurious beings and when we
become curious from a veryauthentic place, we, we are
(04:12):
exposing ourselves.
And when we expose ourselves,others to see us in a light.
I hope that is quite authenticand.
We are being brave about thatauthentic part and doctors and a
(04:38):
what I am helping system is toto be with the other, to have.
Been told because other momentsin were most focused on the
chart or on the diagnosis or onthe illness opposed to the
(05:03):
wholeness and fullness of thisindividual who carries with them
story carries with themexperiences that probably
attribute to some of thediscomfort or the dis-ease they
are feeling now in this doctor'soffice.
So what do I do?
I, I am an architect.
I liken that to looking atarchitecture framework, one that
(05:27):
really allows and institutionsto fulfill their mission with I
am a deep listener.
I am an empath.
from a bone healers who believedand understood the of wisdom in
(05:50):
the body and the and that.
that we.
Can not pull from, but connectwith.
So we're connecting with thisembodied information that truly,
(06:11):
I believe us understand more soOther people's lives and our
lives and our family's lives.
Um, and that to me is aboutcreating healthier communities.
Lee (06:26):
Wow, Ssanyu and that reciprocity, that energy that
you're talking about, I felt itso strongly.
Not only the first morning thatI met you, but when you've come
to my town to work with localactivists in my community, I
felt it.
At every networking event we'vebeen to together every time I've
(06:47):
seen you speak and work, and canyou talk about.
Like who you serve.
I hear the work around narrativemedicine, but I know that your
work goes so much beyondhealthcare.
Ssanyu (06:59):
Yes it does.
And thank you for, for.
Guiding that question becausewhat's really important for me
and my purpose is to bring workof narrative medicine.
Um, I like to describe it from,from the gates, you know, of
Columbia.
Um,'cause there are only twoplaces in the world that you can
(07:22):
get a master's in science degreein narrative medicine out into
the world.
So you just mentioned I workwith local activists, whether
it's here in the us.
Or on the continent of Africa.
Um, I work with that focus in onauthenticity, trust, resilience
(07:43):
within the workplace, withinleadership models.
work with individuals, um, onhow to refine the tools, um,
that they have in their toolboxas to.
The ways in which they havedeveloped their own leadership
skills and to looking to refineand maybe even deepen into, um,
(08:09):
rituals and practices that aregoing to move them in the next
iteration of their lives.
Um, whether it's their personallives or professional lives.
I work with young people.
I love mentoring, um, youngpeople in the world to.
Find, you know, what is theirpurpose?
(08:29):
How are they going to achievetheir, their desires and create
the vision of success forthemselves?
Um, using the tools of, ofstorytelling, of indigenous
knowledge and wisdom andpractices to really be the
highest performer that one canbe.
I mean, you know, Lee, we.
(08:52):
We have met, um, in spaces andplaces where we've watched
people literally perform, whichthey think is attracting, you
know, but in fact it'srepelling.
Um, you know, so I work withpeople to take off the mask, um,
(09:14):
to understand that.
Maybe they have been wearing amask all this time, that which
they thought they were beingtruthful and authentic with
themselves and others.
Um, and that's just a really, Ithink, wonderful place to be.
Um, I was just working with a,um, an individual this
afternoon, and so I doone-on-one work, not just, you
(09:35):
know, community building and,um, you know, uh.
Corporate, you know, uh,workshops and trainings.
Um, I do work with, you know,individuals one-on-one, and we
talked about fear and basis ofpower that comes from being in a
(09:57):
place of fear, when we canacknowledge we are fear, we, we
are fearing something, and thenwe just go into that fear
nonetheless.
Like we just go there.
Um.
And what, what happens when wedo that, can be such a, a
teacher to us and alsoilluminate far greater
(10:20):
experiences than we probablycould have ever imagined.
That is for our highest andgreatest good.
That's that, that's, that's thedeliciousness I think of the
work that I do is that I get tobe a witness of not just.
The other, but myself this spaceof making connection deeply,
(10:45):
listening to the other andhaving the willingness and
capacity to sit in my owndiscomfort so I can hold space
for an individual who might bemoving through discomfort
themselves.
is a reason why I did not becomea physician.
(11:08):
One, I don't test well, but two,being a physician, I am bonded
and blinded by an oath whichdoes not allow me to share my
own personal stories.
(11:29):
to me, I think is the mostpotent piece of the work that I
do, is I can.
one story and two, walk besidethem and share parts of my lived
experience that perhaps mayinspire them, feel a little bit
(11:50):
more supported, curious, andthose opportunities to share my
personal story as a way toconnect.
Other, to be able to thenusually what happens, receive
(12:11):
the other's story in kind.
and is there a way that we canstart to use that experience of
telling, receiving story a toolin making change in the world?
You know, do things differently.
(12:32):
we just have to.
we were taught, even as youngpeople, is useful for youth
right now.
Lee (12:43):
Right, right, right.
I keep saying to so many of myclients, like, what got us here
is not what's gonna get us tothe next place.
Right.
And you're even what you justsaid is, again, that
reciprocity, this exchange, thisdynamic movement and you know
what you are speaking to is likeour whole selves, right.
(13:03):
Of helping people take off thosemasks.
And so much of our American.
Culture, especially at work, isabout really like siloing
ourselves, right?
And like leaving some of usoutside.
And of course that's impactingunderrepresented people, most of
all.
And it's benefiting certainpeople more than others.
But can you talk about thisunmasking, and particularly in
(13:27):
the context of work or the otherroles that we play, and why is
this important?
Ssanyu (13:32):
Yes, and I'll begin with a short story.
The practice of narrativemedicine is to use art and music
and prose literature, the thevoice even to elicit something
within us that has been perhapsdormant.
(13:55):
So in my practice, whether it's.
In university settings orone-on-one teaching or trainings
in different institutions andindustries.
I'm always pulling out somethingthat I hope that can resonate
with There is a poem by MayaAngelou.
(14:16):
We wear the Masks and sherecites it, and you can find it
on YouTube, and I find it verypowerful, not only to listen and
watch her recite this poem, butto then read the poem itself.
And so why I bring this processout to sit with.
(14:40):
Her words, the tone that sheuses, and then to then read the
words is because many of us haveput on masks with our family, we
have been told we are marrying amask when we may think we are
not.
(15:00):
We literally wore masks.
From 2020 to 2023, of us I seeare still wearing masks.
I live in New York City.
I'm seeing witnessing peoplewith the masks on.
What does a mask do?
Well, it, it covers somethingup.
(15:24):
It hides These masks that we areusing, the, the, the proverbial
mask and also the physical maskis, is, is a tool for silence,
So how many of us have felt wehave been silenced, or we are
(15:50):
actively silencing ourselvesbecause we're either too afraid.
To use our voice too, afraid toshare our opinions and ideas do
not feel supported if we do dothat, is be expressive and
(16:13):
vibrant individuals who havesomething to say, aren't worried
about saying the right thing,but more so want to have
dialogue.
Right.
know, I shared this with you andwith others about, you know, my
first experience in corporateAmerica.
I was working in IT and beingthe liaison between the business
(16:38):
sector because I understood bothlanguages, right?
So there is a language thatfinance has that technology not.
Information departments do notuse, shall I say?
And sometimes there needs to bea translator.
Well, I remember feeling sodisillusioned, you know, I was
(17:03):
young.
I was like, oh, I can translateand help these people work
together.
Well, quite frankly, these twopeople had, had, had had put on
a mask for As opposed to takingoff their mask and being like,
well, let's see how wecommunicate with one another.
Forget about Ssanyu, honestly.
Like, but let's, let's take offthese masks and just figure out
(17:24):
how to communicate.
And, and, and we don't often dothis when we're trying to effect
change in the or in aninstitution because we have
believe that what got us heregoing to get us to the next
phase.
actually do believe what got ushere is going to get us to the
(17:48):
next phase.
Lee (17:49):
Hmm.
Ssanyu (17:49):
you just said you tell your clients what got
Lee (17:53):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (17:53):
is not going to get us to the next place.
Lee (17:57):
Right.
Ssanyu (17:57):
That's the truth.
the truth of things, then hidingbehind what we call, you know,
the mass that Maya Andrew wasspeaking of.
could also be laughter.
How many times have we foundourselves laughing at someone's
(18:18):
when truly we are uncomfortable
Lee (18:21):
Oh yeah.
Ssanyu (18:23):
with that comment?
Lee (18:24):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (18:26):
How many of us, and these are all embodied
experiences that are happeningin real time as we are using our
words.
Because the body
Lee (18:40):
Absolutely.
Ssanyu (18:42):
keeps score.
Lee (18:43):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (18:45):
So I work with individuals one-on-one.
Often I will weave this into thetrainings that I, that I give at
different institutions and, youknow, boards, et cetera,
because.
To arrive in a place with peoplethat you may or may not know
very well is very important tome.
(19:06):
So we are all at the same, whatI would say, energetic level.
At the same place.
We're arriving at the sameplace, whether it's location,
literally, or physically.
The chair that you're sittingin, let's recognize where we
are.
I don't know if you re recall.
(19:27):
you know.
Years ago, like, you know, youget called into these meetings,
what have you, and before thelast person has even sat down,
the person is like, you know,who's leading the meeting?
It's like, okay, so let's getright to it.
Lee (19:38):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (19:39):
And I'm like, okay, shoot.
Can I just get comfortable in myseat?
Can I, you know,
Lee (19:44):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (19:45):
can, can I like let go of what I just did 10 seconds
ago?
No.
Jump
Lee (19:51):
But that would assume, right?
That would assume that we arefully human and are fully
ourselves at work.
And there seems to be this likeongoing idea that we're not
allowed to be fully ourselves.
Right?
Ssanyu (20:05):
Uh,
Lee (20:06):
And how do we.
How do we encourage thisunmasking when like the senior
leaders or many others arefighting dead set against it.
Ssanyu (20:18):
so dead set.
The fight is very, um.
Real, as we will say, right?
It's, it's, it's something that
Lee (20:25):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (20:26):
feeling.
Lee (20:27):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (20:28):
and I don't have the answer to that, what I We being
asked to make choices everysingle day, and my goal is to
help individuals, communities,to make the right choice.
(20:50):
Every day for themselves, fortheir communities, and sometimes
to keep one safe, we will haveto put that mask on.
we've seen this in differentorganizations, different
communities, particularly the.
In the Bipoc and the LGBTQ pluscommunity, we've seen that
(21:11):
sometimes it's not actually safeto take the mask off, anything
that I can do to to be ofallyship and support to
individuals who might not feelsafe to take the mask off, then
I believe I made the rightchoice for me and that person.
(21:34):
So if we can.
Then get more of us who helpindividuals take the mask off.
Then we have like a whole, wegot a whole team.
So can we create like a team?
Can we start to create like, youknow, I'm, you know, I think eso
(21:54):
esoterically sometimes of like,can we create a whole country,
like, you know, like enough ofus to just be
Lee (22:01):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (22:02):
you feel safe.
To take
Lee (22:05):
Hmm.
Ssanyu (22:05):
off and maybe
Lee (22:07):
Right.
Ssanyu (22:07):
that's like leveraging resources from me instead of you
today, Lee, because
Lee (22:15):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (22:16):
safe for you to use your resource today, but it's safe
for me to use my
Lee (22:22):
That's the thing is the safety.
And we can see it inorganizations, we can see it in
community, and there's so manyreasons to not feel safe right
now.
And so I, I understand the needfor protection, and yet I know
that our future is in ourcontinued connection and as you
(22:43):
say, embodied presence.
Ssanyu (22:45):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think of my mother and myfather at this time, honestly,
because I've witnessed my fathergo through war.
So my father's Ugandan, and um,he fought in the bush.
Um.
Back in the eighties to free hiscountry.
(23:09):
And there's risk that comes withthat, right?
Like there's deep risk here.
You're, you're, you're in thejungle.
You're, you're fighting, youknow, people that you've never
met before.
you could do what Well, to feelfreedom that that was, that was.
thing I think of my mother whofought against discrimination
(23:34):
and became the first in manyfields, um, you know, she was
one of the first women of colorto be hired by Pan-American
Airlines back in the sixties,early seventies.
She was the be, you know, runnerup in these different, you know,
pageants that she did in, in, inhigh school right before
college.
Um, seeing where she was being.
(23:57):
Stripped away of what was hers,um, because of the color of her
sin.
I've witnessed my, you know,self growing up in different, in
a different time where we werethe first, you know, family of
color in the neighborhood andhaving to, um, contend with
(24:17):
people calling me names,particularly the end name, and
my mother saying, you know.
What to, what, what to do whenSomeone says and I was like, oh,
for real.
Like, but that
Lee (24:34):
Yes.
Ssanyu (24:35):
to, right, that was her way to empower me with my
Lee (24:38):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (24:39):
So I still sit with, I don't have the actual answer,
but I have ways to, to, to chipat the ish to chip at the.
The, the, the, the bedrock wherewhat we did to get us here needs
(25:03):
to be actually destroyed.
Lee (25:05):
Oh wow.
Wow.
And it, thank you so much forsharing your experience because
it helps me understand thiswonderful intersection between
narrative medicine, which you'vetold us about, and then that you
are an 80th generationindigenous bone healer.
(25:26):
Can you talk about thatancestry?
That lineage that.
Gift a bit more and tell us moreabout your healing.
Ssanyu (25:34):
Yes, I, I understood this lineage when I was a kid.
Um, you know, going back to EastAfrica, for the summers.
I lived there for several yearsduring middle school and high
school.
Um, so I, I was fortunate enoughto, to connect with my ancestry
(25:58):
land.
Um, we have.
place that has a, most of allthe generations actually.
Yeah, the tombs.
We have tombs there as well.
So like I could visually see myancestors, if that makes any
sense.
Visually, see where they'reburied and traditionally be.
(26:23):
you come into the country, oneof the first things you're
supposed to do is pay yourrespects.
So I like to like, okay, within48 hours, 72, at the most, I
must make a journey home.
A journey home to our land, tothe burial ground, respect.
I have been charged with thatritual ever since I was a kid
(26:47):
and.
Also too had experiences as achild, as a young adult, um,
where I could feel things, seethings, um, think of something,
dream of it, and it happened thenext day.
Um, feel as if I'm being spokento by, you know, someone who
I've never met, but I felt likeI knew very much so, and that
(27:09):
would happen whilst I was.
Walking down a street orswimming.
I, I, I was a competitiveswimmer, so I would often have,
um, information given to me inorder to figure out how to win
(27:30):
the race.
That's actually when I firstreally understood like there's
some, there's something biggerthan me that's happening within
me or around me, and I didn'treally have language for it.
what I will say is that my.
Parents both believe deeply inspirit and in in divine love.
And in that being who we aredoesn't live outside of us, we,
(27:52):
it's in us.
And so being ushered intodifferent spaces of prayer, of
meditation, um, of, of giving.
Libations to the ancestors, Imean.
(28:14):
That's a whole nother storythough.
The story of the bone healercame when I woke up, paralyzed
from my fingers to my shouldersabout 15, 13 years ago, and I
didn't know what had happened.
It was very scary to wake up notbeing able to use a part of your
body.
I remember speaking to myfather, who is the chief of the
(28:37):
bone healers at that time.
You know, when you know things,but you don't really like.
Embody them or, or make note.
You know, you hear the thing,the the thing, the thing is
being told to you and you'relike, mm-hmm I understand.
And then you keep going.
You just keep moving on tosomething else in life, right?
So I understood that my fatherwas the chief, but I didn't
(29:00):
really connect to it being ofthe bone healers of this
shamanic lineage that I comefrom until I woke up paralyzed
That was when the student wasready for the teacher moment.
And as I'm, you know, there's alot that I went through during
(29:21):
this time.
It was about five months of, of,paralysis and going to the
doctors, not getting diagnosed,coming back, doing acupuncture.
You know, there's, a wholenother story in itself as well,
but.
for me to stay focused on thebone healer itself and that
experience of now being usheredinto the lineage when I was
(29:49):
ready to hear what I needed tohear.
And that's when my father openedup to me and for me the stories
that I needed to hear, therituals I needed to, to connect
with.
Um, and that's.
When the journey began of mereturning home to East Africa to
Uganda, particularly with adifferent intention, and that
(30:11):
intention was to connect withthe soil in a different way for
me to connect with the ancestorsand, understand there is a
lineage that I'm a part of thathas been asked by the community
to help them.
(30:32):
Be, well, know the story of theBone Healer is in the Buganda
clan, which is where I'm from.
We have a king and the Kabaka ishis name, and the Kabaka lives
in a palace.
And in this palace he would.
Hit his servants and sometimesbreak their bones.
(30:53):
When that would happen, theywould call in my family, my
lineage to not just put theirbones back together, but to
serve their spirit and help thembeyond the hurt and the dis-ease
and the trauma.
And so there's a story of thebone healers.
We connect with the moon starsand.
(31:16):
Cosmos, that which directlyconnected to our home that we
call swe.
which illuminates and gives usinformation that allows us to
move through the world to helpothers.
And that literal house of iswhere people of the village like
to sleep in.
(31:36):
If they were feeling ill or.
You know, sometimes one wouldsay they are, you know,
possessed or, you know, um,maybe there is issue with, you
know, fertility with a, with afamily member.
They would come to our houseand, and sleep there, and the,
the stories are, they wouldleave that house and they would
feel better.
(31:57):
Now, these stories when told inmy father's tongue of Uganda,
they're, you know.
Also illuminating some parableshere, right?
And illuminating some lessons tobe learned.
And part of that bone healer inme is to share knowledge and
(32:18):
wisdom of these parables thatwhich my ancestors left to then
guide.
you, me, those whom we love areconnecting with back to that
indigenous knowledge and wisdomthat which we all come from.
We all have it.
And that's part of the BoneHealers mission is to be the
(32:43):
architect or the guide back towho we truly are.
And from that process of doingthat, we do heal.
Internally, I, I do work withindividuals who have literal
ailments in the body and thebones, and also healing the
spirit, excuse me, healing thesoul.
(33:08):
Learning about in which we candown and methodically make
better decisions because we'renot rushing through.
The acceleration that life isespecially in the Western world,
(33:29):
you know, there is thecombination of true.
Fixing of an ailed body throughthe bones and to connecting to
the past trauma and stories thatlive in our body, blood and
bones, order to accelerate themental, spiritual soul that we
(33:54):
all can do.
We just.
Sometimes don't know how to pullup those tools with from within
us.
And I find that high achievingindividuals who learn these
practices are able to not onlyaccelerate beyond their wildest
dreams, they're also teaching itto those who they're connected
(34:15):
to.
So this knowledge and wisdom isbeing shared.
It's not supposed to be siloedin an institution.
And I can say that by being apart of one, and I'm gonna use
me as an example to answer thequestion around how do we take
(34:39):
the mask off?
I just giggled after I said Itoo am a part of an institution.
Why?
Well, that's a mass thatsometimes I find myself
contending with.
Of the professor lecturer andthe person Ssanyu.
And what I, what I have donemore often than not, excuse me,
(35:10):
is integrate the two.
And because I'm sitting.
And reflecting on what it doesmean to be a part of this
institution, uncomfortablebecause my institution is unable
(35:32):
to support the very people thatare doing the good work, and
that saddens me, So here in lieswhat we're doing now We're
talking, right?
We're connecting.
You have a platform and we needto continuously share our lived
(35:53):
stories.
Um.
We, we must use technology anddifferent ways to make
connections globally withindividuals who are doing the
work as well.
(36:14):
You know, and what is doing thework well, being in places where
you may feel comfortable shakingthings up.
That's doing the work.
Or maybe you're there to supportand, and bring safety for
individuals who want to shakethings up, but don't necessarily
(36:35):
feel they can alone perhaps thestory that you share that gives
someone the opportunity to feelcapable of using their voice.
Their authentic, true voice tospeak up not only for the other,
(36:58):
but for themselves.
We can continuously do differentthings, right?
We need to, we need to readstories of people doing some,
you know, simple.
Maybe it's not even doing big,you know, audacious things.
Maybe it's just simply beingavailable for someone to talk.
(37:19):
Through their issues.
You know, maybe that's the,maybe that's the big innovation
that we need to, you know, focuswhich is deeply listening,
asking people to share theirstories, asking people to, you
know, share their community andconnections and contacts.
(37:40):
Remember the Rolodex back in theday.
I, you know, I think.
Lee (37:44):
Yeah,
Ssanyu (37:45):
Some of my mentees would not know what a Rolodex is, but
you know,
Lee (37:48):
I.
Ssanyu (37:50):
we share that that Rolodex of information and
context of individuals who fifinancially can help us move the
needle forward.
This is what we do need.
We need finances, we needsupport.
We need collaborations.
We need partnerships withorganizations that are willing
(38:11):
to do things differently.
We are in a time where, like yousaid, what got us here is not
going to get us to the nextphase, next place.
So do we really believe ininnovation then?
And if an organization does,then prove it.
Hire individuals that don't dothings the same way that you do,
(38:33):
but get results and they canprove those results.
You know, there's a lot of, theclinical space it's about, you
know, quantitative research.
Well, qualitative research isvery important too.
The collection of individualstories and understanding their
lived experiences is just asgood as the quantitative data.
Love it.
I love it when they both cometogether.
(38:55):
That is
Lee (38:55):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (38:57):
but it's just as strong.
That qualitative method just asstrong and potent.
As the numbers,
Lee (39:05):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (39:06):
is.
Lee (39:08):
Yeah.
It's what brings our humanityand our integrity, as you said.
Ssanyu (39:13):
Yes.
Yeah.
Lee (39:17):
I think that's what has moved me so much about your work
is that.
It is about the, the, again,that reciprocity, it's about the
energy between us.
It's about our own relationshipto ourselves and our
communities.
And if it, is it okay if I quoteyou?
Ssanyu (39:37):
Yeah.
Lee (39:39):
you, you wrote in a newsletter a few weeks ago, you
wrote, your evolution doesn'trequire more input.
It requires more wisdom aboutwhen to engage and when to
simply be.
And that is what I've learnedfrom you, my friend is a deep
listening and a, a stillness andan ability to be.
(40:02):
More present in myself and withothers, and I'm so grateful for
your work and for your human andfor who you are in the world.
Ssanyu (40:16):
Thank you, Lee.
I that and appreciate.
The energy that which we areexchanging and allowing to occur
between right now.
(40:36):
And, excuse me, what we decidedwhen we first met, which was.
Connection was important, and soI've learned so much by being
connected with you by cominginto your community and
connecting with your communitymembers and the leaders who love
where they live and want to seetheir community healthy, and
(41:00):
also learning from you and beingable to.
Ask questions and get curiousand ideate with you and expand
both our missions in this worldso we can be louder.
I think that's also too the, theintention.
(41:24):
I think that's
Lee (41:25):
So we can be louder.
Ssanyu (41:26):
we can be louder and I think maybe that is
Lee (41:30):
Yeah.
Ssanyu (41:31):
part of the antidote.
your have an answer to it, butperhaps there's an antidote,
which is we gotta get louder.
Lee (41:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And a big part of that I thinkis through the tools and the
methods that you teach.
It's really being able to sit inourselves so that we can amplify
Ssanyu (41:57):
Yeah.
Lee (41:58):
ourselves and each other.
Ssanyu (41:59):
Yeah.
Lee (42:00):
And I will say my friend, we met in the most corporate
setting I could have possiblyimagined, and I think both of us
were like, get me the hell outtahere.
You know?
We were like, we were drawn toeach other's energy.
I think because we are twopeople who have really decided
to take off the mask.
(42:22):
And it's really powerful to justto be in space with you and to
know you, and I'm so gratefulfor you.
Ssanyu (42:30):
Thank you, Lee.
Thank you for creating the spaceto share and connect, um, not
just with you, but those wholisten to your, to your podcasts
and who follow the work thatyou're doing in the world.
Um.
That's probably the, the bestway to get loud is to have, um,
(42:56):
your friends, your peers, yourcolleagues, amplify the work
that we're doing.
So thank you.
Lee (43:02):
Oh, and speaking of Ssanyu, how can people find you in your
work?
Ssanyu (43:07):
So you can find ssanyubirigwa.com.
Um, and I really am loving theenergy of LinkedIn.
Um, so you can find me onLinkedIn at Ssanyu Birigwa, I do
some, you know.
within a container ofindividuals who want to refine
their toolbox, as I say.
(43:28):
Um, and who are really lookingat that, you know, um, way in
which they're showing up forthemselves and others as a
powerful, um, part of themselvesin this resonance lab that I
have, um, that we meet twice amonth and it's a place of
connection and community workingwithin the tools of narrative
(43:48):
medicine and indigenous wisdom.
And then you can also find meon.
Substack.
Um, if anyone is interested inreading some of my own personal
musings, um, not, they're notedited down for like, you know,
newsletters or they're justreally just my thoughts and
connections and oftentimes, um,channeled wisdom and knowledge
that, um, I'm sharing with theworld.
(44:09):
So lots of different places.
Um, and of course email.
Um, I do answer my email.
And I am proud of that.
So I do get reflections backfrom individuals who, um, read
my newsletters.
I send out a Sunday pausenewsletter every Sunday.
I've been doing this for aboutsix months now.
(44:31):
um, that's also another way to,to feel into the work and to the
powerfulness of, um, the potent.
Energy that comes from slowingdown by taking a pause, by
taking a breath and focusing ononeself.
Lee (44:54):
Potent energy of slowing down, and I will be sure to link
to all of those links in theshow notes.
Please find Ssanyu work.
It is so powerful and so neededin this moment, and thank you so
much for coming on the podcastmy friend.
Ssanyu (45:12):
Thank you, Lee.
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