June 5, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of Empathetic Presence, I sit down with Chana Ginelle Ewing, a storyteller, cultural entrepreneur, and Founder & Chief Creator at littlebigworld. We dive deep into how queer imagination and care-centered politics can inform strategic marketing to move our world forward.
This conversation is personally meaningful during Pride month, as queer lives continue to be under attack. Chana shares how we can understand our identities as sources of power rather than limitations, and why bringing our whole selves to our work creates more authentic and effective leadership.
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Episode Transcript
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Lee (00:05):
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm your host, Lee Bonvissuto ,and today I am so excited to
share my interview with ChanaGinelle Ewing.
Chana is a storyteller,cultural entrepreneur, founder,
and chief creator at Little BigWorld where queer imagination
(00:27):
and care centered politicsinform strategic marketing to
move our world forward.
Happy Pride.
As queer lives are continuallyunder attack, it has never been
more important for us to shareour stories and use our voices.
I hope you enjoy my interviewwith Chana Ginelle Ewing here.
Chana Ewing's audio backup (00:51):
Hi, Lee.
Thanks for having me.
How use my voice right now?
You know, so you, I, I, I, Iknew this question was coming
(01:14):
and I had a, a.
Prepared answer, but then whenyou said it just now, it made me
pause to think about, because Idon't want think it's because
of the right now piece.
You know, like I think how weuse our voice in this moment
just changes like on a day to,on a day to day basis.
(01:35):
Um, uh, but I would say broadlyspeaking, um, I'm.
People understand theiridentities as power.
So essentially, you know, anydeviation from dominant
identities, which is like, youknow, cis, white, male,
(01:58):
Christian, um, heterosexual,right?
Like this kind of like the mostdominant identity that we have.
And then there's all thedeviations from that.
Um, it's typically seen as likea limitation in this society,
right?
Though obviously differentcommunities have reclaimed their
identities over time, overdecades.
(02:19):
Um, but you know, my goal inthe work that I do and the, and,
and the voice that I have is tohave people understand their
unique identities and culturalbackgrounds as a source of pride
and power.
As a source of unique geniusthat they can apply to all the
(02:42):
work that they do.
So not that it stops, um, inthe space of our social
interactions, but you can extendthat to everywhere.
You know, I think there was aformer professional culture that
sort of looked at, um, youridentity as culture as like, oh,
you know, we leave that athome.
(03:04):
Right?
And the work that I do isaround, or how I use my voice is
around.
No one's ever leaving any ofthat at home, you know?
Um, we've all adopted, youknow, a professional stance,
which is largely, um, a whitereac unbeknownst.
(03:31):
That's sort of whatprofessional identity looks
like.
And so we leave our cultureand, you know, our, our genders,
our um, our race, ourethnicities, all of that at the
door so that we can become thisflattened group of people in
(03:51):
order to engage in society.
And so I think largely myvoice.
Around acknowledging that thatflatness doesn't exist for
anyone.
Um, and that for folks who havebeen, you know, ably
marginalized, um, is extremelyhard to fit into that, you know,
(04:16):
flat mold, um, nearlyimpossible.
And do.
We acknowledge that how theyare showing up is powerful and
that they have unique genius.
And so I think that'sessentially how I, how I.
I love to hear that.
(05:28):
Thank you so much and honestly,um, it's so cool to hear
(06:12):
someone else read, like say themessaging out loud.
So part of, you know, as a newbusiness, one of the things that
I do is I will click, I'll openup my, um, philosophy and just
have it on my, one of my tasksevery day because, you know,
being.
There's a lot of things that goin our day.
(06:35):
And so just like, I feel likeI'm the number one, um, audience
for, for that, um, philosophy,like, um, it just reminds me and
guides me back to why I'm doingthis.
Like, so what I'm creating asocial media post that I don't
wanna do, like, or when I'mlike, you know, stuck in
(06:57):
QuickBooks or you know, I'mdoing some little tedious
spreadsheet task.
You know, just to kind of havethat vision be to me and like
keep me mindful of the, of theYeah, so essentially, you know,
um, my career has looked like,um, the intersection of like,
(07:18):
creativity, storytelling, um,and identity, right?
Like, I think, you know, myvery first business was actually
called Little Big Girl.
Um, and so it's just fittingthat this is, this is actually a
callback to my very firstbusiness back in, um, 2009.
And the, the business then waslittle big girl and it was like
(07:41):
a riff on, um, uh, what is, uh,Seth Godin, you know, like Seth
Godin's book where he, his headis coming up from the bottom of
the book.
I Bald, so logo.
A little girl, a little blackgirl with a afro coming up in
the bottom of the image in acircle.
(08:02):
And the concept there was justlike this, this, um, this
tension between commandingpresence and playfulness.
Um, being very sure and of yourself expression, being very
sure of your story.
But also, um, having awillingness to experiment and
(08:25):
willingness to, um, expressbeyond your imagination.
And so I think like that first,and that first, sorry, that
first business really I, um, wasabout working with small
businesses around theirstrategic story.
Um, their journey on socialmedia and like how they connect
(08:51):
with audiences.
That was my very firstbusiness.
And then as I moved into thatbusiness, a lot of my clients
ended up making, uh, films anddocumentaries and filmmakers.
And so, um, so moving, youknow, a lot of crossing turns
here.
Um, I also had a business thatwas Genie, that was a beauty
(09:13):
business around identity and.
Self expression to like promotesmall businesses that you care
about and also buying from smallbrands that you care about.
Right.
So I think they, all of thosebusinesses and threads kind of
come back to this concept ofconnecting stories to identity
(09:36):
and to creativity.
So when I closed Jeanie backin, I.
Three.
So when I closed Genie in themiddle of 2023, I thought,
thought a lot about like, wheredo I wanna go from here?
Right?
Because I had veered off intothis startup path and the
(09:57):
startup path though it was funand it was, I guess it was
values aligned in some way.
It really, it, it.
I was authentic, fullyauthentic to me.
And so I said in my newbusiness, what I wanted to do
was like center my owncreativity.
(10:18):
So part of what I've done forthe last few years has been
marketing others, right?
Like, like marketing brands.
Marketing businesses,marketing.
So in 2023, let business, whatI.
So I freelanced for about ayear and I started writing.
(10:42):
I launched a subset, I thinkmiddle of last year.
And after I started moving myvoice forward, like my authentic
writing and voice, I was like,okay, now this business is gonna
build from, right?
Like it's going be reflect.
(11:02):
Home for my own creative,creative endeavors and, and also
for the support of otherlike-minded brands and
organizations.
So I think I did that prettyintentionally because I think a
lot of times we think about, um,our creative output or our
(11:26):
passions as like these sidehustles that have to exist.
Separately from your business,and I'm, I'm a writer at the end
of the day, so the way I seethe world is through a writer's
lens.
That's what I'm applying tomarketing.
And so I'm like, this businessneeds to intentionally leverage
(11:48):
Chana, the writer, if it's gonnasucceed, so that I have a
platform for myself to showcasemy own thinking, but also to
connect that very intentionallyto.
The, the clients and, um,partners that I work with.
A hundred percent.
(12:43):
And that's what keeps mehonest, right?
So like if I were to try toperform, you know, at the end of
the day when you're, obviouslyit's, you know, you, you coach
folks, right?
So obviously it's a little bitdifferent when you're coaching
someone who is working within anorganization, right?
And how they think about theirrelationship to their job and
(13:07):
their career, right?
Um, and how they are inpartnership with the brands that
they work with.
You know, not necessarilycentered, it's somebody else's
vision that they're workingwith, right?
But in the case of an ENTentrepreneur and a business that
you're building, it doesn'tnecessarily, you know what I
think I had to learn is that,um, because all like Jeanie was
(13:28):
like this.
I did another business calledMichelle, or Jim was a couple of
businesses before this, whereeven little big girl, to a
certain extent, even though Ihad the logo that looked like
me, I still was doing this sortof like professional identity
versus like personal identity.
And I was keeping myselfseparate, right?
And I was like, I, you know, Idon't want the business to be
(13:50):
about me.
Hire little big girl.
I want people to like buy fromGenie.
I want people to like come toMichelle o brunch or whatever it
is.
Not, not because of me.
And it's like the reality iswhen you are a business owner,
it's you, right?
Like it's very much you, youknow, it's like, um, and
(14:15):
especially if you're in sortbusiness.
It doesn't make sense for me tolike try to present something
that is divorced from me or thatis apart from me.
I, you know, I want it to befully aligned and people be
like, oh yes, this person inthis business makes sense for me
(14:37):
to work with and to, and forthem to support my, my brand
journey.
You know, so.
A hundred percent.
(16:06):
So the reason why, you know weare.
Specifically talking aboutqueer thinking changes
everything is, because for me,queerness is beyond de beyond
desire.
Right.
It is, it's an approach tolife.
Right.
And it's, it's how we thinkabout our relationships writ
large.
So you know, it's going beyondtraditional understandings of
(16:31):
like gender, of family, ofself-expression.
Um, who we relate to, how werelate to them, who we center,
um, and really stepping intomutuality, trust, care built
around these ex expandedunderstandings of our
(16:52):
connections.
Right?
So it's not thinking, it's not,it's not just looking at like,
okay, it's not acceptingtraditional default modes of
being.
Right.
Like it's the ability to beable to think about, this is a
binary.
Can I go beyond that Binarylike this?
(17:14):
Okay, I, so folks say youexpress yourself this way.
Can I express myself that way?
Right?
Like it's having the ability tolike see for yourself who you
wanna be in the world and alsoto.
Build connections that are notbased off of assigned roles that
(17:39):
are default given to you.
Like, this is my mother, thisis my father, this is my
husband, this is my girlfriend.
And so therefore it means this,right?
Like this queer queerness is,is beyond any of those.
Kind of understanding, right?
So it's a, it's a politic in a,in many ways.
And so I really like thatframing.
(18:00):
And unbeknownst to me, it'slike, honestly, how I was
approaching marketing andcreativity and storytelling
anyway, right?
Like it's, and it became moreclear to me that that was my
lens writing an ABC equality,right?
Um, and like the work aroundthat children's book, it was
like, really, it clarifi.
The way I'm seeing the world isvery expansive and I'm in
(18:27):
purposefully and intentionallytrying to push myself out, you
know, wherever I'm doing, um,either or thinking like I'm, I'm
intentionally trying to live aworld, live in a, live in a
world that thinks in terms oflike, right.
Um, and so I think like that's.
(18:47):
You know, when, when, whensomeone says, okay, um, we
wanna, I always like to use thisexample.
I wanna create a film thattargets, um, NYC cycles, right?
So like, that's like, oh, oreven NYC black cycles, right?
(19:09):
Like, that, that might be the,like my, my documentary targets.
Who is that?
Right?
Like and whose story wouldlikely, if you said n well see
black bikers, who you probablywould likely think of is thin,
(19:30):
uh, able bodied, uh, probablymasculine folks, right?
Like, that's who you wouldthink about.
Maybe young, right?
Like this, these are imagesthat might come to mind.
We might think about, okay,what about the older bikers?
What about the disabled bikers?
What about the black bikers?
What about the trans bikers?
Like what?
(19:50):
It just enables us to thinkabout like go past those, like
prejudgments around who likes tobike and who can bike.
Take into all the other richcommunities that might be in New
York that might like biking,right?
So that, that is like builtinto how we are thinking about
(20:14):
who we're serving and who's leftout of a picture of a story or
the picture of a, of a targetdemographic.
Absolutely.
(21:19):
Absolutely.
Oh, it's such a good question.
(21:50):
And you know, the thing is,what came to mind just now?
Um, I dunno, I think I've readlast week in terms of, I know
this, I know you talked about AIspecifically, but I think one
of the things that AI islearning from and feeding from
is the net, right?
It's just feeding from generalinternet.
And I read somewhere how.
(22:11):
It's like sort of editing itsanswers, right?
So like if you're, you'reunable to get the full knowledge
of in story, right?
Because of the agenda that isin the US around like provision
is history, right?
Like so, you know, we wannaignore the fact that people are
(22:37):
in fact oppressed today and havebeen oppressed since.
You know, this founding of thiscountry, right?
We wanna ignore that story andcreate a whole new understanding
of what the US is.
That's like quote unquotepatriotic.
And patriotic means to, um, notinterrogate or to push your
(23:02):
quote unquote country to bebetter, or, you know, living its
values.
Patriotic means to, you know.
Unconsciously unconsciousaligned to whatever it is,
whatever it is that you, yourgovernment, the moment is saying
is the truth of history.
And so it's interesting howapparently these platforms are
(23:25):
now aligning with these storiesso that they don't get the I of,
you know, of this government sothat they kind of get out of
harms way.
So I think that that is reallyinteresting because yeah, like
what is online and what comes upin searches and what's
(23:50):
available for knowledge is thething that powers these large
language models, right?
So if the, like, if the contentis inaccurate or you know,
false or tells a different.
Point of view, view of theconqueror, you know, the point
(24:13):
of view of the colonizer and thepoint of view of the dominant
folk, then that will bereflected in the AI use.
And so I will always say it'sreally important for people to
just not like, um, if you areusing ai, first of all, learn as
(24:34):
much as you can around AI andethics.
Prompts engineering.
I know that that's like, youknow, something that people
talked about a little bit, likearound like more like in 2022
and 2023 first started learningabout child gt.
It was like, oh, all aboutengineering and now people don't
talk about it as much anymorebecause everyone's like, oh, you
(24:55):
know, that's ai.
They, you know.
You just pump it in.
You, you put something in it,it'll like spit it out right for
you.
And it's like, no, actually,you have to be really thoughtful
around what your inputs are.
And you also need to push backif it's giving you inputs that,
you know, like outputs that youknow to be false or be
suspicious.
Because a lot of times it'sjust reflecting, um, the story
(25:20):
of the times, you know?
So it's.
It's very complicatedsituation.
I think on mainly felt, wewe're not even talking about the
environmental impact, but like,just the point of view of like
how you are using it.
I think that it's not wise tojust allow, allow AI to just
(25:43):
like be your, your new sec, yournew brain without you being the
leader of that and you kind ofusing some discernment around.
The information that it'sgathering for you.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
(26:17):
Um, so I don't know.
(27:08):
Yes, I would hope I, you know,I would love to do a memoir at
some point.
Um, I recently have been.
And that's been fun.
Do, um, you know, I.
Modes of storytelling that I'dlike to entertain in addition
(27:34):
to, um, a book.
And I think I wanna do a bookon marketing.
Honestly, that would be evenfun to do a book on marketing
from this, from this lens.
Um, I'm pretty obsessed withmarketing.
I think it gets a bad name.
Um, mostly because, you know,one of the things I like to tell
my clients all the time islike, marketing shouldn't.
(27:57):
Uh, tell a false story or makeup for gaps in the product,
right?
Like the marketing should, likeyou, like we should, you should
have a great product.
And all we have to do is gatherthe folks around that funnel to
that story, right?
(28:18):
But so often what happens isthe opposite.
Most people are using, uh,marketing to.
Um, a story about a productthat doesn't exist, right?
Or to showcase values that arenot real, right?
Like people use, you know, theyweaponized marketing, you know,
(28:39):
this is what they do.
Like they, they are tellingfalse stories or they're trying
to get people into their.
Identities and ideals that arenot true, or, uh, product
features that are not true, um,in order to like, hopefully, you
(29:00):
know, convince you to buy withthem or buy, buy their product
or buy them service.
Right.
And what I would say, it'slike, let's not use, like,
that's not the, that's not thegoal.
These tools, right?
Uh, to bring an amazing story,an amazing product in front of
(29:27):
an audience.
Right?
And if you need to think,because I think, you know,
sometimes, like you can thinkabout, um, like what comes
first, like the, the strategy orthe actual marketing, right?
Sometimes you could, you couldbring a marketer's lens or.
Communications professionalslens into your strategic product
(29:52):
development or early on in thelife stage of a product or, or
early on in the life stage of afilm, to kind of give you that
lens around, okay, the, the endresult and how that's gonna
resonate with an audience.
So you can use, you know,marketing from that lens, but
often like, don't, don't, sothat you just get the feedback
(30:13):
of like, how to build thisthing.
Right.
That's fine.
But often that's not what'shappening.
What's happening is you have apoor product or poor story and
you're putting a bandaid.
You're trying to use marketingas a bandaid to cover up for
that.
And that's why I think myprofession gets a bad name is
(30:34):
because we're, you come in andwe have to make false claims
around something that doesn'tactually in real, you know?
And I.
Maybe some marketers are okaywith doing that, right?
I would rather work with asmall business or brand around
helping them achieve the goal ofthat product or service, right?
(30:57):
So bring me on early enough tohelp you with that strategic
lens around who you're trying toserve in building that product
journey so that it serves thataudience in a way that you would
like to serve it, versus on theend of that, where it's like
this thing is.
So something not right here,you know?
two things.
(32:17):
The first is all of theseplatforms have an agenda around
consumption.
So we know that in and ofitself, right?
Like they, they are all focusedon consumption because at the
end of the day, even though it'sfree, they are trying to
monetize your consumption,right?
(32:39):
Like that's their goal.
End of story.
You know, Instagram, Facebook,TikTok, whatever the social
media platform they are tryingto monetize consumption.
There's only really two rolesfor a business on social media,
(33:01):
right?
It's either as a creator, soyou are willing to come on
social media and create a lot ofcontent so that it's consumed,
right, so that you can then, uh,monetize the.
Consumer eyeballs.
You bring them on a journeyfrom seeing you on an Instagram
(33:22):
post to joining your newsletter,to then taking an action from
your newsletter.
You know, you use this brand,you use them as like top of
funnel, and you bring peopledeeper into your funnel until
they make a sale, right?
So you can be a creator and youdo that to monetize, right?
Or you can be an advertiser.
(33:43):
You can, and.
You can, um, play ads, right?
I would say that if you are noton social media doing either of
those two things, then you arelikely being a powerful consumer
that is being, um, monetized,right?
(34:04):
And we should all think aboutwhat that, what that means for
us, right?
So if I, if I'm saying that Idon't wanna be a creator or an
advertiser.
I need to be really mindfulabout what my consumption looks
like.
Because if you just let thatconsumption one, you know, one
pre unchecked, then you start toexperience, you know, uh,
(34:25):
mental health challenges.
You know, you start to feelbad.
Like there's all these likeattendant.
That come from just passivelyconsuming social media all day,
right?
Like if you, just, like, if youwere to passively sit and watch
a TV show for eight hours,right?
Like it's, you know, you, you,you might get some, like, you
(34:47):
know, that dopamine hit of likejoining that story, but are you
really feeling good for likeeight hours?
Beneficial for your health, youknow, to just be on your couch
for eight hours watchingcontent, right?
Like, that's not, so if youthink about it from that point
of view, I think it helps peopleunderstand, um, why social
(35:12):
media can be an important truthfor marketers or business
owners, um, and how you canleverage it for those reasons
and why it may not make sense tojust use.
To consume, you know, like, I,I wouldn't, 10 10 will not
recommend, you know, like I'm,you know, I'm personally only on
(35:35):
these channels when I'mmarketing.
You know, like I barely look,use, you know, I, I have a goal
of becoming more of a creatorfor my own marketing, right?
But not to sit there and justconsume content all day.
And it is intentional.
(36:04):
So these apps, these apps arebuilt that way for you to
continue to swipe and continue.
You know, this how they're,they're built.
Absolutely.
(37:11):
Um, so, um, a couple things.
One is I'm really trying tothink about rest.
I am, unfortunately, I've dealtwith insomnia for years and oh,
you know.
Working around my rest and mysleep.
(37:32):
And one of the things that Isay to myself is like, I take
rest whenever it comes to me.
So like, you know, if I'm tiredin the middle of the day, I
would like try to go take a, alittle power nap versus like,
try to wait till the end of thenight, you know?
So really being very, uh, restcentered so that I can optimize
(37:54):
myself and do.
The other piece is that I'm anextrovert, so people, I just
need to be around people.
I love being with my community.
I love being around my friends.
I love finding the perfectcoworking space to go and do
work at which I, and look, I'min a cafe right now, so I'm, I'm
(38:15):
always, um, thinking about howI could put people so.
Productive amount, work day.
Those are the two things thatI'm always looking at.
And then for your, um, yourother, I wanted to just say this
last thought too, which isaround the concept of your, um,
(38:38):
podcast, which is like existingpresence.
And I think, like I wasthinking about this a a bit, and
it goes back to something whichis like executive.
It's really about just owningyour identity, you know, like
being fully in your own.
(38:59):
So, you know, like it's likebeing like I am committed to my
vision.
I own who I am, and I can bethat wherever I am.
Thank you so much for havingme, Lee.
(40:08):
This has been fun.
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm your host, Lee Bonvissuto ,and today I am so excited to
share my interview with ChanaGinelle Ewing.
Chana is a storyteller,cultural entrepreneur, founder,
and chief creator at Little BigWorld where queer imagination
(00:27):
and care centered politicsinform strategic marketing to
move our world forward.
Happy Pride.
As queer lives are continuallyunder attack, it has never been
more important for us to shareour stories and use our voices.
I hope you enjoy my interviewwith Chana Ginelle Ewing here.
Chana Ewing's audio backup (00:51):
Hi, Lee.
Thanks for having me.
How use my voice right now?
You know, so you, I, I, I, Iknew this question was coming
(01:14):
and I had a, a.
Prepared answer, but then whenyou said it just now, it made me
pause to think about, because Idon't want think it's because
of the right now piece.
You know, like I think how weuse our voice in this moment
just changes like on a day to,on a day to day basis.
(01:35):
Um, uh, but I would say broadlyspeaking, um, I'm.
People understand theiridentities as power.
So essentially, you know, anydeviation from dominant
identities, which is like, youknow, cis, white, male,
(01:58):
Christian, um, heterosexual,right?
Like this kind of like the mostdominant identity that we have.
And then there's all thedeviations from that.
Um, it's typically seen as likea limitation in this society,
right?
Though obviously differentcommunities have reclaimed their
identities over time, overdecades.
(02:19):
Um, but you know, my goal inthe work that I do and the, and,
and the voice that I have is tohave people understand their
unique identities and culturalbackgrounds as a source of pride
and power.
As a source of unique geniusthat they can apply to all the
(02:42):
work that they do.
So not that it stops, um, inthe space of our social
interactions, but you can extendthat to everywhere.
You know, I think there was aformer professional culture that
sort of looked at, um, youridentity as culture as like, oh,
you know, we leave that athome.
(03:04):
Right?
And the work that I do isaround, or how I use my voice is
around.
No one's ever leaving any ofthat at home, you know?
Um, we've all adopted, youknow, a professional stance,
which is largely, um, a whitereac unbeknownst.
(03:31):
That's sort of whatprofessional identity looks
like.
And so we leave our cultureand, you know, our, our genders,
our um, our race, ourethnicities, all of that at the
door so that we can become thisflattened group of people in
(03:51):
order to engage in society.
And so I think largely myvoice.
Around acknowledging that thatflatness doesn't exist for
anyone.
Um, and that for folks who havebeen, you know, ably
marginalized, um, is extremelyhard to fit into that, you know,
(04:16):
flat mold, um, nearlyimpossible.
And do.
We acknowledge that how theyare showing up is powerful and
that they have unique genius.
And so I think that'sessentially how I, how I.
I love to hear that.
(05:28):
Thank you so much and honestly,um, it's so cool to hear
(06:12):
someone else read, like say themessaging out loud.
So part of, you know, as a newbusiness, one of the things that
I do is I will click, I'll openup my, um, philosophy and just
have it on my, one of my tasksevery day because, you know,
being.
There's a lot of things that goin our day.
(06:35):
And so just like, I feel likeI'm the number one, um, audience
for, for that, um, philosophy,like, um, it just reminds me and
guides me back to why I'm doingthis.
Like, so what I'm creating asocial media post that I don't
wanna do, like, or when I'mlike, you know, stuck in
(06:57):
QuickBooks or you know, I'mdoing some little tedious
spreadsheet task.
You know, just to kind of havethat vision be to me and like
keep me mindful of the, of theYeah, so essentially, you know,
um, my career has looked like,um, the intersection of like,
(07:18):
creativity, storytelling, um,and identity, right?
Like, I think, you know, myvery first business was actually
called Little Big Girl.
Um, and so it's just fittingthat this is, this is actually a
callback to my very firstbusiness back in, um, 2009.
And the, the business then waslittle big girl and it was like
(07:41):
a riff on, um, uh, what is, uh,Seth Godin, you know, like Seth
Godin's book where he, his headis coming up from the bottom of
the book.
I Bald, so logo.
A little girl, a little blackgirl with a afro coming up in
the bottom of the image in acircle.
(08:02):
And the concept there was justlike this, this, um, this
tension between commandingpresence and playfulness.
Um, being very sure and of yourself expression, being very
sure of your story.
But also, um, having awillingness to experiment and
(08:25):
willingness to, um, expressbeyond your imagination.
And so I think like that first,and that first, sorry, that
first business really I, um, wasabout working with small
businesses around theirstrategic story.
Um, their journey on socialmedia and like how they connect
(08:51):
with audiences.
That was my very firstbusiness.
And then as I moved into thatbusiness, a lot of my clients
ended up making, uh, films anddocumentaries and filmmakers.
And so, um, so moving, youknow, a lot of crossing turns
here.
Um, I also had a business thatwas Genie, that was a beauty
(09:13):
business around identity and.
Self expression to like promotesmall businesses that you care
about and also buying from smallbrands that you care about.
Right.
So I think they, all of thosebusinesses and threads kind of
come back to this concept ofconnecting stories to identity
(09:36):
and to creativity.
So when I closed Jeanie backin, I.
Three.
So when I closed Genie in themiddle of 2023, I thought,
thought a lot about like, wheredo I wanna go from here?
Right?
Because I had veered off intothis startup path and the
(09:57):
startup path though it was funand it was, I guess it was
values aligned in some way.
It really, it, it.
I was authentic, fullyauthentic to me.
And so I said in my newbusiness, what I wanted to do
was like center my owncreativity.
(10:18):
So part of what I've done forthe last few years has been
marketing others, right?
Like, like marketing brands.
Marketing businesses,marketing.
So in 2023, let business, whatI.
So I freelanced for about ayear and I started writing.
(10:42):
I launched a subset, I thinkmiddle of last year.
And after I started moving myvoice forward, like my authentic
writing and voice, I was like,okay, now this business is gonna
build from, right?
Like it's going be reflect.
(11:02):
Home for my own creative,creative endeavors and, and also
for the support of otherlike-minded brands and
organizations.
So I think I did that prettyintentionally because I think a
lot of times we think about, um,our creative output or our
(11:26):
passions as like these sidehustles that have to exist.
Separately from your business,and I'm, I'm a writer at the end
of the day, so the way I seethe world is through a writer's
lens.
That's what I'm applying tomarketing.
And so I'm like, this businessneeds to intentionally leverage
(11:48):
Chana, the writer, if it's gonnasucceed, so that I have a
platform for myself to showcasemy own thinking, but also to
connect that very intentionallyto.
The, the clients and, um,partners that I work with.
A hundred percent.
(12:43):
And that's what keeps mehonest, right?
So like if I were to try toperform, you know, at the end of
the day when you're, obviouslyit's, you know, you, you coach
folks, right?
So obviously it's a little bitdifferent when you're coaching
someone who is working within anorganization, right?
And how they think about theirrelationship to their job and
(13:07):
their career, right?
Um, and how they are inpartnership with the brands that
they work with.
You know, not necessarilycentered, it's somebody else's
vision that they're workingwith, right?
But in the case of an ENTentrepreneur and a business that
you're building, it doesn'tnecessarily, you know what I
think I had to learn is that,um, because all like Jeanie was
(13:28):
like this.
I did another business calledMichelle, or Jim was a couple of
businesses before this, whereeven little big girl, to a
certain extent, even though Ihad the logo that looked like
me, I still was doing this sortof like professional identity
versus like personal identity.
And I was keeping myselfseparate, right?
And I was like, I, you know, Idon't want the business to be
(13:50):
about me.
Hire little big girl.
I want people to like buy fromGenie.
I want people to like come toMichelle o brunch or whatever it
is.
Not, not because of me.
And it's like the reality iswhen you are a business owner,
it's you, right?
Like it's very much you, youknow, it's like, um, and
(14:15):
especially if you're in sortbusiness.
It doesn't make sense for me tolike try to present something
that is divorced from me or thatis apart from me.
I, you know, I want it to befully aligned and people be
like, oh yes, this person inthis business makes sense for me
(14:37):
to work with and to, and forthem to support my, my brand
journey.
You know, so.
A hundred percent.
(16:06):
So the reason why, you know weare.
Specifically talking aboutqueer thinking changes
everything is, because for me,queerness is beyond de beyond
desire.
Right.
It is, it's an approach tolife.
Right.
And it's, it's how we thinkabout our relationships writ
large.
So you know, it's going beyondtraditional understandings of
(16:31):
like gender, of family, ofself-expression.
Um, who we relate to, how werelate to them, who we center,
um, and really stepping intomutuality, trust, care built
around these ex expandedunderstandings of our
(16:52):
connections.
Right?
So it's not thinking, it's not,it's not just looking at like,
okay, it's not acceptingtraditional default modes of
being.
Right.
Like it's the ability to beable to think about, this is a
binary.
Can I go beyond that Binarylike this?
(17:14):
Okay, I, so folks say youexpress yourself this way.
Can I express myself that way?
Right?
Like it's having the ability tolike see for yourself who you
wanna be in the world and alsoto.
Build connections that are notbased off of assigned roles that
(17:39):
are default given to you.
Like, this is my mother, thisis my father, this is my
husband, this is my girlfriend.
And so therefore it means this,right?
Like this queer queerness is,is beyond any of those.
Kind of understanding, right?
So it's a, it's a politic in a,in many ways.
And so I really like thatframing.
(18:00):
And unbeknownst to me, it'slike, honestly, how I was
approaching marketing andcreativity and storytelling
anyway, right?
Like it's, and it became moreclear to me that that was my
lens writing an ABC equality,right?
Um, and like the work aroundthat children's book, it was
like, really, it clarifi.
The way I'm seeing the world isvery expansive and I'm in
(18:27):
purposefully and intentionallytrying to push myself out, you
know, wherever I'm doing, um,either or thinking like I'm, I'm
intentionally trying to live aworld, live in a, live in a
world that thinks in terms oflike, right.
Um, and so I think like that's.
(18:47):
You know, when, when, whensomeone says, okay, um, we
wanna, I always like to use thisexample.
I wanna create a film thattargets, um, NYC cycles, right?
So like, that's like, oh, oreven NYC black cycles, right?
(19:09):
Like, that, that might be the,like my, my documentary targets.
Who is that?
Right?
Like and whose story wouldlikely, if you said n well see
black bikers, who you probablywould likely think of is thin,
(19:30):
uh, able bodied, uh, probablymasculine folks, right?
Like, that's who you wouldthink about.
Maybe young, right?
Like this, these are imagesthat might come to mind.
We might think about, okay,what about the older bikers?
What about the disabled bikers?
What about the black bikers?
What about the trans bikers?
Like what?
(19:50):
It just enables us to thinkabout like go past those, like
prejudgments around who likes tobike and who can bike.
Take into all the other richcommunities that might be in New
York that might like biking,right?
So that, that is like builtinto how we are thinking about
(20:14):
who we're serving and who's leftout of a picture of a story or
the picture of a, of a targetdemographic.
Absolutely.
(21:19):
Absolutely.
Oh, it's such a good question.
(21:50):
And you know, the thing is,what came to mind just now?
Um, I dunno, I think I've readlast week in terms of, I know
this, I know you talked about AIspecifically, but I think one
of the things that AI islearning from and feeding from
is the net, right?
It's just feeding from generalinternet.
And I read somewhere how.
(22:11):
It's like sort of editing itsanswers, right?
So like if you're, you'reunable to get the full knowledge
of in story, right?
Because of the agenda that isin the US around like provision
is history, right?
Like so, you know, we wannaignore the fact that people are
(22:37):
in fact oppressed today and havebeen oppressed since.
You know, this founding of thiscountry, right?
We wanna ignore that story andcreate a whole new understanding
of what the US is.
That's like quote unquotepatriotic.
And patriotic means to, um, notinterrogate or to push your
(23:02):
quote unquote country to bebetter, or, you know, living its
values.
Patriotic means to, you know.
Unconsciously unconsciousaligned to whatever it is,
whatever it is that you, yourgovernment, the moment is saying
is the truth of history.
And so it's interesting howapparently these platforms are
(23:25):
now aligning with these storiesso that they don't get the I of,
you know, of this government sothat they kind of get out of
harms way.
So I think that that is reallyinteresting because yeah, like
what is online and what comes upin searches and what's
(23:50):
available for knowledge is thething that powers these large
language models, right?
So if the, like, if the contentis inaccurate or you know,
false or tells a different.
Point of view, view of theconqueror, you know, the point
(24:13):
of view of the colonizer and thepoint of view of the dominant
folk, then that will bereflected in the AI use.
And so I will always say it'sreally important for people to
just not like, um, if you areusing ai, first of all, learn as
(24:34):
much as you can around AI andethics.
Prompts engineering.
I know that that's like, youknow, something that people
talked about a little bit, likearound like more like in 2022
and 2023 first started learningabout child gt.
It was like, oh, all aboutengineering and now people don't
talk about it as much anymorebecause everyone's like, oh, you
(24:55):
know, that's ai.
They, you know.
You just pump it in.
You, you put something in it,it'll like spit it out right for
you.
And it's like, no, actually,you have to be really thoughtful
around what your inputs are.
And you also need to push backif it's giving you inputs that,
you know, like outputs that youknow to be false or be
suspicious.
Because a lot of times it'sjust reflecting, um, the story
(25:20):
of the times, you know?
So it's.
It's very complicatedsituation.
I think on mainly felt, wewe're not even talking about the
environmental impact, but like,just the point of view of like
how you are using it.
I think that it's not wise tojust allow, allow AI to just
(25:43):
like be your, your new sec, yournew brain without you being the
leader of that and you kind ofusing some discernment around.
The information that it'sgathering for you.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
(26:17):
Um, so I don't know.
(27:08):
Yes, I would hope I, you know,I would love to do a memoir at
some point.
Um, I recently have been.
And that's been fun.
Do, um, you know, I.
Modes of storytelling that I'dlike to entertain in addition
(27:34):
to, um, a book.
And I think I wanna do a bookon marketing.
Honestly, that would be evenfun to do a book on marketing
from this, from this lens.
Um, I'm pretty obsessed withmarketing.
I think it gets a bad name.
Um, mostly because, you know,one of the things I like to tell
my clients all the time islike, marketing shouldn't.
(27:57):
Uh, tell a false story or makeup for gaps in the product,
right?
Like the marketing should, likeyou, like we should, you should
have a great product.
And all we have to do is gatherthe folks around that funnel to
that story, right?
(28:18):
But so often what happens isthe opposite.
Most people are using, uh,marketing to.
Um, a story about a productthat doesn't exist, right?
Or to showcase values that arenot real, right?
Like people use, you know, theyweaponized marketing, you know,
(28:39):
this is what they do.
Like they, they are tellingfalse stories or they're trying
to get people into their.
Identities and ideals that arenot true, or, uh, product
features that are not true, um,in order to like, hopefully, you
(29:00):
know, convince you to buy withthem or buy, buy their product
or buy them service.
Right.
And what I would say, it'slike, let's not use, like,
that's not the, that's not thegoal.
These tools, right?
Uh, to bring an amazing story,an amazing product in front of
(29:27):
an audience.
Right?
And if you need to think,because I think, you know,
sometimes, like you can thinkabout, um, like what comes
first, like the, the strategy orthe actual marketing, right?
Sometimes you could, you couldbring a marketer's lens or.
Communications professionalslens into your strategic product
(29:52):
development or early on in thelife stage of a product or, or
early on in the life stage of afilm, to kind of give you that
lens around, okay, the, the endresult and how that's gonna
resonate with an audience.
So you can use, you know,marketing from that lens, but
often like, don't, don't, sothat you just get the feedback
(30:13):
of like, how to build thisthing.
Right.
That's fine.
But often that's not what'shappening.
What's happening is you have apoor product or poor story and
you're putting a bandaid.
You're trying to use marketingas a bandaid to cover up for
that.
And that's why I think myprofession gets a bad name is
(30:34):
because we're, you come in andwe have to make false claims
around something that doesn'tactually in real, you know?
And I.
Maybe some marketers are okaywith doing that, right?
I would rather work with asmall business or brand around
helping them achieve the goal ofthat product or service, right?
(30:57):
So bring me on early enough tohelp you with that strategic
lens around who you're trying toserve in building that product
journey so that it serves thataudience in a way that you would
like to serve it, versus on theend of that, where it's like
this thing is.
So something not right here,you know?
two things.
(32:17):
The first is all of theseplatforms have an agenda around
consumption.
So we know that in and ofitself, right?
Like they, they are all focusedon consumption because at the
end of the day, even though it'sfree, they are trying to
monetize your consumption,right?
(32:39):
Like that's their goal.
End of story.
You know, Instagram, Facebook,TikTok, whatever the social
media platform they are tryingto monetize consumption.
There's only really two rolesfor a business on social media,
(33:01):
right?
It's either as a creator, soyou are willing to come on
social media and create a lot ofcontent so that it's consumed,
right, so that you can then, uh,monetize the.
Consumer eyeballs.
You bring them on a journeyfrom seeing you on an Instagram
(33:22):
post to joining your newsletter,to then taking an action from
your newsletter.
You know, you use this brand,you use them as like top of
funnel, and you bring peopledeeper into your funnel until
they make a sale, right?
So you can be a creator and youdo that to monetize, right?
Or you can be an advertiser.
(33:43):
You can, and.
You can, um, play ads, right?
I would say that if you are noton social media doing either of
those two things, then you arelikely being a powerful consumer
that is being, um, monetized,right?
(34:04):
And we should all think aboutwhat that, what that means for
us, right?
So if I, if I'm saying that Idon't wanna be a creator or an
advertiser.
I need to be really mindfulabout what my consumption looks
like.
Because if you just let thatconsumption one, you know, one
pre unchecked, then you start toexperience, you know, uh,
(34:25):
mental health challenges.
You know, you start to feelbad.
Like there's all these likeattendant.
That come from just passivelyconsuming social media all day,
right?
Like if you, just, like, if youwere to passively sit and watch
a TV show for eight hours,right?
Like it's, you know, you, you,you might get some, like, you
(34:47):
know, that dopamine hit of likejoining that story, but are you
really feeling good for likeeight hours?
Beneficial for your health, youknow, to just be on your couch
for eight hours watchingcontent, right?
Like, that's not, so if youthink about it from that point
of view, I think it helps peopleunderstand, um, why social
(35:12):
media can be an important truthfor marketers or business
owners, um, and how you canleverage it for those reasons
and why it may not make sense tojust use.
To consume, you know, like, I,I wouldn't, 10 10 will not
recommend, you know, like I'm,you know, I'm personally only on
(35:35):
these channels when I'mmarketing.
You know, like I barely look,use, you know, I, I have a goal
of becoming more of a creatorfor my own marketing, right?
But not to sit there and justconsume content all day.
And it is intentional.
(36:04):
So these apps, these apps arebuilt that way for you to
continue to swipe and continue.
You know, this how they're,they're built.
Absolutely.
(37:11):
Um, so, um, a couple things.
One is I'm really trying tothink about rest.
I am, unfortunately, I've dealtwith insomnia for years and oh,
you know.
Working around my rest and mysleep.
(37:32):
And one of the things that Isay to myself is like, I take
rest whenever it comes to me.
So like, you know, if I'm tiredin the middle of the day, I
would like try to go take a, alittle power nap versus like,
try to wait till the end of thenight, you know?
So really being very, uh, restcentered so that I can optimize
(37:54):
myself and do.
The other piece is that I'm anextrovert, so people, I just
need to be around people.
I love being with my community.
I love being around my friends.
I love finding the perfectcoworking space to go and do
work at which I, and look, I'min a cafe right now, so I'm, I'm
(38:15):
always, um, thinking about howI could put people so.
Productive amount, work day.
Those are the two things thatI'm always looking at.
And then for your, um, yourother, I wanted to just say this
last thought too, which isaround the concept of your, um,
(38:38):
podcast, which is like existingpresence.
And I think, like I wasthinking about this a a bit, and
it goes back to something whichis like executive.
It's really about just owningyour identity, you know, like
being fully in your own.
(38:59):
So, you know, like it's likebeing like I am committed to my
vision.
I own who I am, and I can bethat wherever I am.
Thank you so much for havingme, Lee.
(40:08):
This has been fun.
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