May 21, 2025 • 35 mins
With so much dividing us right now, what if conflict could actually deepen our connections rather than tear us apart? I sit down with conflict facilitator and transformative justice practitioner Nicole Bauman to explore how empathy is not a weakness but a revolutionary tool for liberation.
Nicole shares their journey from conflict avoidance to seeing conflict as an opportunity for growth, revealing how self-empathy becomes the foundation for navigating even the most challenging conversations. Together, we explore why empathy has been "stolen from us" by systems of domination, how we can reclaim our capacity to feel as an act of decolonization, and practical ways to stay grounded in our humanity even when the world feels overwhelming.
My conversation with Nicole brought up both tender vulnerability and fierce wisdom if you are seeking to transform your relationship with conflict, in your community, workplace, or in movements for justice.
We discuss:
- Self-empathy as the starting point for all conflict navigation
- The weaponization of empathy and why disconnection serves power structures
- Somatic practices for building safety and capacity in difficult conversations
- Moving beyond binary thinking in a polarized world
- Practical tools for staying embodied during conflict
- The connection between personal healing and collective liberation
About Nicole Bauman:
Nicole is a facilitator working at the intersections of transformative justice, somatics, and nonviolent communication. They see building conflict resiliency as essential for the world to come and are passionate about creating spaces where personal and collective liberation feel possible.
Links from Nicole:
- Learn more about their work at https://www.nicolebauman.com
- Free Assessments for Queer Folks during the month of June
- Learn more about Nicole’s one-on-one work here
- Navigating Conflict: Building Resilience for Your Working Relationships
- Navigating Feedback: Deepening Collaboration in the Conversations We Need
- Unraveling Whiteness: An Introduction to Embodied Antiracist Practices
- Weaving New Ritual
Timestamps:
- [00:00] Introduction and Nicole's current work
- [02:00] How Nicole uses their voice and shows up in the world
- [06:00] Defining empathy and its role in conflict
- [10:00] Rethinking conflict as opportunity rather than threat
- [14:00] Cultivating safety in unsafe situations
- [18:00] Is empathy learned or stolen from us?
- [22:00] Empathy in corporate and dominating environments
- [26:00] Nicole's offerings and upcoming programs
- [31:00] Self-care and community care practices
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee (00:05):
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm Lee Bonvissuto, your host,and we have a lot of conflict in
our world right now.
I am really conflict avoidantand like so many things, I'm a
student of conflict.
I am learning from teachers.
(00:26):
I am practicing navigatingconflict, and today I am honored
to interview one of my teachers.
Nicole Bauman, who is afacilitator in the worlds of
transformative justice, somaticsand nonviolent communication.
They see building conflictresiliency as an essential part
of living in the world to come.
(00:48):
And they are passionate aboutcreating spaces where personal
and collective liberation feelpossible.
Welcome, Nicole.
I'm so glad that you're here.
Nicole Bauman (00:57):
So good to be here, Lee, really excited to be
in this conversation with you.
Lee (01:02):
I was just thinking about how much I've learned about
conflict from you as someone whois naturally very conflict
avoidant.
Nicole Bauman (01:11):
You are not alone.
Not alone in that at all, withyou in it.
In fact, part of the reason thatthis is the work that I do, un
shockingly.
Lee (01:22):
I know, I know.
And we all teach what we needand I love that.
And so I would love to hear,Nicole, how do you use your
voice in this moment and ingeneral?
Nicole Bauman (01:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that question.
Just, feeling into what is livetoday and some of how, what's
coming up in this moment is justwhere I am this week and what
I'm up to this week, which isfeeling connected to some of the
work I've been doing aroundorganizing for a free and hosted
(02:01):
a potluck and fundraiser in mylocal community last night and
really feel yeah, just like feelthe tenderness of what's
happening right now.
And parenting.
I have a seven and a half yearold kiddo, and it's one of the
(02:22):
places where I get to have themost consistently challenging
opportunities to practiceempathy and what I bring to the
world and how to be in my valuesaround that.
It's always there.
A lot of what I'm up to isreally supporting folks in
(02:43):
conflict, in life, therefore inconflict, the intention to have
a little more a toolkit and alittle more capacity to show up
to conflict with more hope forit to be generative, and that
really for the sake ofcollective liberation.
So having seen over and overagain in my own life, in
(03:08):
movement spaces and so many, somany places, how often conflict
really just like breaks down ourbeautiful collaborations.
I do work one-on-one.
I'm with groups and in all kindsof ways to try to allow us to
actually work together and betogether in the ways we need.
Lee (03:28):
Wow, Nicole, and this is why I wanted to talk to you
because this moment of conflictand historical conflict,
conflict with our little ones.
You know, hearing you talk aboutparenting is this consistently
challenging place to practicethis work and what first really
attracted me to your work and Ihad wanted to study nonviolent
(03:49):
communication for quite sometime and to learn more about
conflict navigation, but hearingyou talk about it a lens of
undoing domination
Nicole Bauman (03:57):
Mm-hmm.
Lee (03:58):
and, you know, to think about, you know, Palestine and
what we're witnessing there andthe ongoing generational
historical domination andoppression.
And so the way that this carriesthrough so much of your work,
and it is so essential right nowthat we build tools for managing
conflict.
(04:19):
And one of the things that Iloved in starting to work with
you is realizing that empathy isat the core.
And I just like wanna talk aboutthat word Yeah.
Like what does that word meaneven mean to you?
Nicole Bauman (04:34):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Talking about the word feelsreally important'cause I think
the word gets misunderstood orjust used in different ways by
different people in differentcontexts.
And I think what feels reallyimportant to me is that it's
like being with, like reallybeing with what is true for
(04:59):
whether that's for myself or foranother person.
And one of my teachers talksabout really making the
important distinction betweenempathy and agreement, which
feels really important inside ofthis political moment.
I can have empathy, yeah, I canhave empathy actually for why
(05:29):
the Israeli government is whatit is doing to Palestinian
communities right now.
just like an incredible legacyof trauma inside of Jewish
community.
Of course, that is one smallpiece of it.
There's also major funding fromthe country that we live in.
So there's like these otheraspects, but empathy, I guess
(05:52):
what I'm pointing to there islike having empathy for why
someone might choose to take aviolent action is really seeing
that behind every action there'sa beautiful attempt to meet a
human need.
And just because I have empathyfor that doesn't mean that I
agree with that choice orcondone an act that does harm or
(06:15):
violence.
And that's a hard one for a lotof us and I think what allows us
to stay human is being able tofind that capacity to hold both
things at the same time.
Lee (06:28):
Wow.
This is why I wanted to speakwith you and before we even like
dive into empathy, you know,there's this spaciousness that
you have when you'refacilitating in this space in a
conversation.
There's a spaciousness that I'vebeen aware of that you bring
(06:49):
when you're facilitating andwhen you're holding space, that
almost like creates the empathy.
You know, it, it's thatspaciousness and I just wanted
to acknowledge that because it'sbetween the words, it's
nonverbal, it's who we are ashuman beings, and you know.
(07:11):
So much of what you just sharedspeaks so deeply because the,
the first time that you and Iworked together was probably
October, 2023.
And for myself, you know, as aperson with Jewish lineage lost
in the Holocaust, I've alwaysbeen like deeply obsessed with
how can the Israeli governmenttreat palestinians this way, you
(07:32):
know, and seeing it with my owneyes and talking to Palestinian
friends and that distinctionthat you just said of we can
acknowledge empathy withoutagreeing is, is really opening
my mind right now.
Nicole Bauman (07:45):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is not in our culture at all.
It's not what most of
Lee (07:54):
right.
Nicole Bauman (07:54):
possible.
There's like including on theleft where there's all kinds of
emphasis around inclusion, etcetera.
We are taught a very hard, likeright, wrong, and bad, in and
out, and I don't think it'sserving us and not that
Lee (08:15):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (08:16):
to have clarity about like our values and our
integrity and our commitment forme, at least, a commitment to
life and liberation.
But it is important to me toalso hold space for the humanity
of folks who are doing violence,because I also do violence and
(08:44):
harm That's healing work that Ihave done personally inside of
nonviolent communication andempathy is like turning that on
myself and
Lee (09:00):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (09:01):
decolonizing my own internal voices and my own
internal judgments and reallyactually like connecting more to
my own beautiful needs and allthe ways that I am trying to
meet them, some of them verymisguided.
Some of the strategy is likereally not actually meeting my
needs or at the cost of otherneeds.
(09:22):
And
Lee (09:24):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (09:25):
starting with empathy for the self is a lot of
what we practice and the classesthat I teach and facilitation
that I do and coaching that Ido.
Lee (09:34):
Yeah, that was one of my observations from your work, and
I worked with you in this groupspace of working on conflict in
late 2023, and it was thatawareness of, oh, I thought we
were gonna really jump intoconflict, but it started with
internal empathy.
It started with building empathyand compassion for ourselves.
(09:56):
And I also love what you justshared because I, I really
believe that we're just in sucha binary society and it's good
or bad.
Right?
And even as a person, I, Idefault to the binary so much.
Right?
And
Nicole Bauman (10:13):
totally.
Lee (10:13):
so I wonder about like, how do you, how do you think about
conflict in general?
Nicole Bauman (10:22):
How do I think about conflict in general?
I still am terrified of it, eventhough it
Lee (10:28):
Yeah, really.
Nicole Bauman (10:28):
I do, so I just wanna like hold so much
compassion and dignity formyself, for all of us who are
like so have, have experiencedsuch dysfunctional and harmful
conflict.
Like of course we're scared ofit.
Of course some of us have a bigway where we are like conflict
(10:51):
avoidant and some folks, the,this language here comes a
little bit more from thesomatics background that I'm
trained in, of strozzi andgenerative somatics and
embodying racial justice.
But we talk about towards, or anagainst, or an away as different
ways we show up.
And they're all beautifulstrategies that we have adapted
(11:12):
to, um, try to stay safer insideof conflict moments.
Most of us don't actually havethe tools to, to move with
generativity and actually seeconflict as an opportunity for
more connection.
And that's really the practicethat I have been in and is a
(11:34):
lifelong practice of choosing tothat paradigm shift.
I think really like what ifconflict was actually an
opportunity for deepeninglearning and connection instead
of something to run away fromand, and I see it happening for
people and for myself as Ipractice more.
(11:55):
And I think that self empathy,like you said, I start there in
classes because it's selfempathy, is, is resourcing and
healing and it
Lee (12:08):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:09):
capacity, more bandwidth to have genuine
empathy for another when weoffer that to ourselves and to
be able to be with a wider rangeof emotion, expression,
intensity to just like conflictso often asks
Lee (12:25):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:26):
expand, right?
To expand what we think ispossible for us to hold, to
hear, to receive, to expand ourperspective.
And that's really hard to do ifwe don't feel safe enough
centered enough, held enough toknow that we're not gonna be
obliterated or like lose ourbelonging, lose our
Lee (12:49):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:51):
Yeah.
Lee (12:51):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:52):
through being with with another person.
Yeah.
Lee (12:57):
way you talk about the expansiveness of conflict, which
is so different than I, than Ithink our societal understand my
own per my personal, when I hearthe word conflict, I constrict,
I, I want to protect.
And then hearing you talk aboutthis baseline of safety, right?
Nicole Bauman (13:18):
Mm-hmm.
Lee (13:18):
And I'm thinking about this so much right now.
And so how do we move intoconflict when we don't feel
safe?
Or how do we cultivate safety inconflict?
Nicole Bauman (13:30):
Yeah, these are such good questions.
Such important questions such asyou name, just like really
relevant questions and I think,again, this is where self
empathy can come in and for me,as I probably said many times in
the class you were in, empathyis really a body-based practice.
(13:51):
For me, a somatic practice inthat we are tuning in to what
are we feeling.
So I'm trying to think of anexample if I'm like choosing
whether or not I want to like gofilm law enforcement situation
happening on my street.
There's like a lot happening inmy body as I decide whether or
(14:14):
not to do that as white personin a very mixed race
neighborhood, as a genderfabulous, kind of person.
Lee (14:25):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (14:27):
where I, where I can start is like, first I wanna
offer the little caveat of, wewanna be real.
I wanna be really clear that insituations of like overt
violence and abuse, like let'stake care of ourselves and
remove ourselves from asituation and keep ourselves
(14:48):
safe and keep each other safe asmuch as we can.
And in this example, where I'mgoing is like me slowing down
enough to feel my own sense of,um whatever risk, fear,
activation is happening in mybody, anticipating whatever risk
(15:08):
could be very possible andgetting to actually honor it and
like notice what it's pointingme towards, like what does this
tightness in my chest or thisconstriction in my belly, or a
feeling of like curling intomyself, telling me about what I
need and in this case, there'sprobably many needs up, but
(15:31):
slowing down enough to be likegetting curious.
There's something about safetythere.
Something about belonging and myown dignity and if when I can be
in a regular practice of slowingdown and kind of like honoring
and nourishing those things formyself, and then also being live
(15:53):
in the moment able more and moreto notice what is old, like what
of my sense of lack of safety isfear-based or from the past, and
can I reassure my literalnervous system right now that
there's enough safety, I haveenough safety to stay.
(16:16):
And that's like a practice overtime and it's gonna look
different for different bodiesin different situations
obviously, but that, that'swhere self empathy kind of meets
somatic practice.
Trauma healing is likereestablishing our felt sense of
safety and belonging enough toshow up to intense situations,
to literally put my body on theline if I so choose for sake of
(16:41):
my community.
Lee (16:43):
Yep.
And a lot of us are, are makingthese sorts of decisions daily
right now, and, and it feelsreally, you know, to have even
language around this, Nicole isso helpful.
You know, even just slowingdown.
And that's been my own somaticpractice of like, oh, my life is
actually slowing down as I canbe more aligned, really, you
(17:06):
know, brain and body And I justlove that, that self practice as
a starting point, reallypowerful.
Nicole Bauman (17:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is a reprogramming.
I think that
Lee (17:21):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (17:21):
little by little over over time with the
repetition of practice and itdoes shift.
And like
Lee (17:30):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (17:30):
coming into my classes, like you named, people
are like, give me the script forhow to do conflict better.
And that's not what I givepeople.
And I hear back from so manypeople that giving them a
tangible empathy practice doesmake a big difference.
Lee (17:52):
Oh yeah.
It's changed my life quite abit, and so much of what we did
together was really like, I, Ibrought it to my, my personal
life, my community, myneighbors, you know, using it
every day of just this practiceof checking in and slowing down.
I always wondered, is thistaught, you know, or are we born
(18:14):
with it?
Is it then disrupted byoppressive systems of
domination?
Or is it nurture?
Is it nature?
Is empathy learned?
And I wonder what you thinkabout that.
Nicole Bauman (18:26):
Yeah, love these questions and I don't know all
the answers scientifically orneuroscientifically speaking,
but I know my own experience andwhat I have observed around me,
which is that people can and dolearn empathy and Very actively
been dominated out of us in allkinds of ways, socialized out of
(18:51):
us.
That our brains were likeevolved to flourish and learn
best in relationality, in likeattuning and resonating with one
another.
And that, that's empathy is likefeeling with other humans and
(19:13):
feeling for ourinterconnectedness and a lot of
that we lose a lot of that andlose is like an in inadequate
word.
It's like really stolen from us.
It's a cultural wound and aseverance, I think, and, and we
can, we can regrow it, is likethe beauty of neuroplasticity.
(19:38):
And Sarah Peyton is one of myteachers and she's, she, she
started studying nonviolentcommunication decades ago and
then did a deep dive that becameher whole career basically
studying the neuroscience ofwhat is empathy and how does it
work.
And her work has been sotransformative to really help me
(20:02):
really trust the ability of ourbrains to lay down these new
neuro pathways and actually growmore ability to heal with
empathy, with empathic presenceand resonance.
Lee (20:17):
Empathic presence and resonance.
It's part of our humanity, youknow, and I know that, and yet,
you know, Elon Musk said thatempathy is the greatest weakness
of western civilization.
And Hannah Arendt apparentlysaid similar things, that seeing
the lack of empathy is alwaysthe first sign of society being
(20:43):
broken apart and dominated andoppressed.
And it must be really powerfulif people are so set on stealing
it from us, as you sobeautifully said.
And, why is it so powerful thatpeople are set to take it away
from us?
Nicole Bauman (21:02):
Mm-hmm.
Huh.
Yeah, I feel the grief thatcomes up as you ask that
question, as you bring that
Lee (21:09):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (21:11):
because of the way this is being weaponized
right now for, uh, in service ofbillionaires.
Lee (21:22):
Yep.
Nicole Bauman (21:24):
Continuing to amass power at, at the expense
of all of us.
And like truly, I think that isonly possible to, to perpetuate
if you have stopped feeling
Lee (21:37):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (21:39):
like, I guess that that's, that's where I'm
landing.
Like I don't know
Lee (21:42):
Right.
Nicole Bauman (21:44):
and I say that, I'm like, oh yeah, and like me
too, like my life depends on animmense amount of extraction and
violence and colonization thatI've benefited from every day
and
Lee (21:58):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (21:59):
my ability to face that and feel that is what
helps me reclaim my life.
Lee (22:08):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (22:11):
and is like fuel for doing something about it.
And so I often talk aboutthere's one full you may
remember, where we just talkabout feelings and the radical
act of re-accessing feeling andbody sensation as an act of
decolonizing
Lee (22:31):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (22:31):
because it serves those in power if we don't feel,
and if we don't feel, um, theheartbreak of harm that's being
done, we can, we're much morelikely to go along with.
Go along with anything if wedon't see how we're impacted.
Lee (22:54):
Yeah, so much of what you're saying reminds me, most
of my clients are in corporatesettings and so many people who
come to see me, first of all,they're getting this feedback
that they need more executivepresence.
Which is just coded languagefor, you know, professionalism
and at work, but it's alsothey're being told that they're
(23:15):
too sensitive or that they feeltoo much or that they have too
much empathy and so what arepeople who maybe want to
continue in those environments,in those dominating
environments?
How can they still accessempathy or leverage empathy when
(23:36):
they're being told that it is aweakness?
Nicole Bauman (23:40):
Yeah, so painful.
Like I just really feel inlistening to you name all of
that, how crushing these systemsare, like how they many systems,
even the most well-intentionedsettings, most of our
(24:04):
businesses, corporations, likejustice minded spaces are still
set up with a lot of dominationmechanisms in place that don't
make space for us to bring ourfull humanity.
And yeah, there's a number oflayers coming up there with that
(24:25):
question.
I think some of what I'm feelingis just like, how do we keep
making space to grieve that thatkind of narrative or reality is,
is true for some of thecorporate folk that you're
working with.
Lee (24:41):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (24:42):
And making space for grief and rage and feeling
is like a whole other piece ofmy work and practice and
exploration now it feels veryconnected, what we're talking
about.
And the other piece that wascoming through as you were
offering that inquiry, I'm justfeeling for the words.
(25:02):
It's.
How do we also get choicefullike contained in a good way
around when and how we areexpressing what, um, and, and
when we are offering empathy toothers, really remembering that
(25:28):
we wanna be in choice and withinour capacity around that too, or
that's another form of violence
Lee (25:34):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (25:35):
Over extension is often doesn't land as empathy
when
Lee (25:41):
Right.
Nicole Bauman (25:41):
is not centered.
Lee (25:45):
I love that phrase that you shared, which is being in
choice.
And I've heard you say that inyour trainings too.
And I think that is, you know,our, our agency, our ability to
make choices, which anxiety andthese silencing systems can take
away so much.
Right.
(26:06):
And the connection of grief.
And can you talk a little bitmore just about your work in
general?
And you mentioned grief, and Iknow you do conflict navigation
work.
How can folks engage with yourwork?
Nicole Bauman (26:19):
Hmm.
Yeah, thanks for that question.
I, I am really excited about alot of the work that I am
offering right now and reallygrateful for that to be true.
I had a friend ask me recentlyabout like, how are you feeling
about your work in this moment?
And I was just like, actually, Ifeel even more convicted that
(26:41):
what I am up to is necessary.
Given That we are living in,that continues to explode in so
many ways.
so I, these classes we keepreferring to are one of the
things that I offer that it area really wonderful way for folks
to start to connect with mywork.
So Navigating Conflict is aneight week online course that
(27:04):
will actually happen again thisfall, starting at the beginning
of September through the GoodWork Institute.
And all of that can be linked inthe show notes.
And then navigating feedback islike a deeper dive with some of
that same toolkit, which isnonviolent communication, plus
somatics, plus undoingdomination, undoing oppression.
(27:25):
A focus on giving and receivingfeedback with care.
And that will be happening laterthis fall.
And I do one-on-one coachingwith folks too.
And some of that is moreexplicitly conflict coaching,
where we might be working on alive active conflict thing or
communication and conflict toolsand skills.
(27:46):
And then I also do healingcentered coaching, that
incorporates a lot of somaticsand embodiment and is a
container in which I supportfolks around their own healing
for the sake of healing andtransformation.
And especially working withfolks who are doing liberation
work, justice work in some formto really able to show up more
(28:08):
fully to collective liberation.
And, and then I do a variety ofother work.
I'm running my first year longcohort and getting ready to
launch a second year of a cohortcalled Weaving New Ritual with a
co-facilitator.
And this is a year long programthat's for white folks of
(28:28):
Christian Lineage who are usingthe Wheel of the Year to reclaim
ritual fluency and also excavatelike what of this Christian
lineage, might we want to callforward for the sake of
collective liberation and whatmight we need to compost as we
work on unraveling whiteness?
(28:51):
we launched last summer notknowing how timely this work
would be as we see nationalismthe rise.
So for me, as someone who leftthe Christian Church spaces I
grew up in a long time ago, uh,as a queer person for a variety
(29:12):
of reasons, it has beenincredibly powerful to consider
what does it mean for me toactually say this story is mine
too, and there's a differentnarrative possible here, and I
am not, I am not letting theright define this, this
(29:32):
tradition.
And there is so much liberatorynarrative inside of this
lineage.
Um, so up to that work with likeother folks, other folks of
Christian lineage and like whatdoes it mean to really also then
see our like supporting folks ofwhite Christian lineage as Kin
(29:57):
and to like learn how to empathyand connection inside of some of
those most challenging spaces,including with my own relatives,
you know?
I wanna speak the name of SusanRaffo one of my elders and
teachers, a white queer personwho just turned 60 and just
walked across the country lastyear.
(30:19):
She is someone I'm reallylooking to and being inspired
by, as she's done a lot ofthinking and working and feeling
around what does it mean to likereally be in that work of
presence and connection andempathy those who are hardest
other white people to to bewith.
Lee (30:41):
I'm so grateful for you doing this work, all of the
work, but also the self work.
I think that you are reallycreating models for how we all
must do this work.
And you know, so many of myBlack and Muslim and Palestinian
friends have talked about forthe last two years how essential
it is that people who share aJewish lineage and white people
(31:03):
are talking about this.
And so, finding ways to do thiswork within our own communities.
The unraveling, that wordunraveling, unraveling ourselves
and our own narrative and ourown habits and the continue the
domination we witness in so manydifferent levels.
So I'm just grateful to you fordoing that work and modeling it.
Nicole Bauman (31:25):
Mmm.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I am, I'm so grateful to get tobe offering it and holding space
and being in that work withmyself, with others.
Lee (31:37):
I think it's really important also for listeners to
hear how we're all caring forourselves right now.
And it's a hard question, right?
You know, it's this pull betweenlike wanting to be really
involved and to do so much, andthen really knowing that we need
rest and we need healing andsafety.
And so Nicole, what are youdoing to care for yourself right
(32:01):
now?
Nicole Bauman (32:02):
Mm.
Thank you for that question.
We really do need it.
And yeah, I, gardening is one ofthe big ones for me.
And, um, spending a lot of timedigging in the soil and tending
plants and being outside.
I go and walk and hike on theriver trail here where I live
(32:25):
regularly and in other places.
Um.
And spending time with my kidwho's just like a really great
invitation into absurdity andplay and like shifting out of
like I, and it feels soimportant to hold the complexity
of I now more than ever, we needall of us to keep showing up.
Lee (32:51):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (32:51):
like not at cost to ourselves.
So how are we, especially insideof like privilege and self care
culture really
Lee (33:00):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (33:00):
holding nuance around like, yes, we must slow
down and we must care.
For ourselves and each other.
We must be nourished and also ina way that like resources us to
continue and to be in the flow.
And that challenges grind ofcapitalism that says
Lee (33:19):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (33:20):
don't wanna participate in that even while
we all still must survive andtherefore here we are
participating.
Um, so kid time helps me kind oflike transcend all of the
nonsense and.
That is good.
I also weave willow baskets andthat's another way of kind of
transcending the nonsense isgetting really fixated in the
(33:42):
physical craft and the plantsand Yeah.
Lee (33:46):
incredible.
Incredible.
Nicole Bauman (33:49):
And
Lee (33:49):
And that's all connected?
Nicole Bauman (33:50):
too.
Lee (33:52):
Yeah.
Oh, grief ritual.
Nicole Bauman (33:55):
yeah.
Lee (33:56):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (33:56):
Holding, holding, like being in the collective
healing work is part of takingcare of myself and others also,
and
Lee (34:03):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (34:04):
I'm getting ready to host a queer healing retreat
on land this weekend, and I'vejust been preparing herbal
bundles and tea and a griefritual time, but also like we're
gonna just rest and relax and goswimming and piece together and
community.
Lee (34:23):
These moments for all of the range of emotions that we're
gonna feel, you know, and again,it's not binary, it's really
expansive.
Nicole Bauman (34:31):
Right.
Lee (34:33):
Nicole, I'm so grateful just to know you and to learn
from you and for the work thatyou put out in the world and the
way that you can really live inthe spaciousness of it all and
the complexity of it all.
I'm really grateful to you.
Nicole Bauman (34:50):
Taking that in.
I appreciate that.
Just, yeah, so grateful to getto have the space with you also
for the work that you're up toas well.
Lee (34:59):
Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole Bauman (35:02):
You're so welcome.
Thank you.
Welcome back to Empathetic Presence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm Lee Bonvissuto, your host,and we have a lot of conflict in
our world right now.
I am really conflict avoidantand like so many things, I'm a
student of conflict.
I am learning from teachers.
(00:26):
I am practicing navigatingconflict, and today I am honored
to interview one of my teachers.
Nicole Bauman, who is afacilitator in the worlds of
transformative justice, somaticsand nonviolent communication.
They see building conflictresiliency as an essential part
of living in the world to come.
(00:48):
And they are passionate aboutcreating spaces where personal
and collective liberation feelpossible.
Welcome, Nicole.
I'm so glad that you're here.
Nicole Bauman (00:57):
So good to be here, Lee, really excited to be
in this conversation with you.
Lee (01:02):
I was just thinking about how much I've learned about
conflict from you as someone whois naturally very conflict
avoidant.
Nicole Bauman (01:11):
You are not alone.
Not alone in that at all, withyou in it.
In fact, part of the reason thatthis is the work that I do, un
shockingly.
Lee (01:22):
I know, I know.
And we all teach what we needand I love that.
And so I would love to hear,Nicole, how do you use your
voice in this moment and ingeneral?
Nicole Bauman (01:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that question.
Just, feeling into what is livetoday and some of how, what's
coming up in this moment is justwhere I am this week and what
I'm up to this week, which isfeeling connected to some of the
work I've been doing aroundorganizing for a free and hosted
(02:01):
a potluck and fundraiser in mylocal community last night and
really feel yeah, just like feelthe tenderness of what's
happening right now.
And parenting.
I have a seven and a half yearold kiddo, and it's one of the
(02:22):
places where I get to have themost consistently challenging
opportunities to practiceempathy and what I bring to the
world and how to be in my valuesaround that.
It's always there.
A lot of what I'm up to isreally supporting folks in
(02:43):
conflict, in life, therefore inconflict, the intention to have
a little more a toolkit and alittle more capacity to show up
to conflict with more hope forit to be generative, and that
really for the sake ofcollective liberation.
So having seen over and overagain in my own life, in
(03:08):
movement spaces and so many, somany places, how often conflict
really just like breaks down ourbeautiful collaborations.
I do work one-on-one.
I'm with groups and in all kindsof ways to try to allow us to
actually work together and betogether in the ways we need.
Lee (03:28):
Wow, Nicole, and this is why I wanted to talk to you
because this moment of conflictand historical conflict,
conflict with our little ones.
You know, hearing you talk aboutparenting is this consistently
challenging place to practicethis work and what first really
attracted me to your work and Ihad wanted to study nonviolent
(03:49):
communication for quite sometime and to learn more about
conflict navigation, but hearingyou talk about it a lens of
undoing domination
Nicole Bauman (03:57):
Mm-hmm.
Lee (03:58):
and, you know, to think about, you know, Palestine and
what we're witnessing there andthe ongoing generational
historical domination andoppression.
And so the way that this carriesthrough so much of your work,
and it is so essential right nowthat we build tools for managing
conflict.
(04:19):
And one of the things that Iloved in starting to work with
you is realizing that empathy isat the core.
And I just like wanna talk aboutthat word Yeah.
Like what does that word meaneven mean to you?
Nicole Bauman (04:34):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Talking about the word feelsreally important'cause I think
the word gets misunderstood orjust used in different ways by
different people in differentcontexts.
And I think what feels reallyimportant to me is that it's
like being with, like reallybeing with what is true for
(04:59):
whether that's for myself or foranother person.
And one of my teachers talksabout really making the
important distinction betweenempathy and agreement, which
feels really important inside ofthis political moment.
I can have empathy, yeah, I canhave empathy actually for why
(05:29):
the Israeli government is whatit is doing to Palestinian
communities right now.
just like an incredible legacyof trauma inside of Jewish
community.
Of course, that is one smallpiece of it.
There's also major funding fromthe country that we live in.
So there's like these otheraspects, but empathy, I guess
(05:52):
what I'm pointing to there islike having empathy for why
someone might choose to take aviolent action is really seeing
that behind every action there'sa beautiful attempt to meet a
human need.
And just because I have empathyfor that doesn't mean that I
agree with that choice orcondone an act that does harm or
(06:15):
violence.
And that's a hard one for a lotof us and I think what allows us
to stay human is being able tofind that capacity to hold both
things at the same time.
Lee (06:28):
Wow.
This is why I wanted to speakwith you and before we even like
dive into empathy, you know,there's this spaciousness that
you have when you'refacilitating in this space in a
conversation.
There's a spaciousness that I'vebeen aware of that you bring
(06:49):
when you're facilitating andwhen you're holding space, that
almost like creates the empathy.
You know, it, it's thatspaciousness and I just wanted
to acknowledge that because it'sbetween the words, it's
nonverbal, it's who we are ashuman beings, and you know.
(07:11):
So much of what you just sharedspeaks so deeply because the,
the first time that you and Iworked together was probably
October, 2023.
And for myself, you know, as aperson with Jewish lineage lost
in the Holocaust, I've alwaysbeen like deeply obsessed with
how can the Israeli governmenttreat palestinians this way, you
(07:32):
know, and seeing it with my owneyes and talking to Palestinian
friends and that distinctionthat you just said of we can
acknowledge empathy withoutagreeing is, is really opening
my mind right now.
Nicole Bauman (07:45):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is not in our culture at all.
It's not what most of
Lee (07:54):
right.
Nicole Bauman (07:54):
possible.
There's like including on theleft where there's all kinds of
emphasis around inclusion, etcetera.
We are taught a very hard, likeright, wrong, and bad, in and
out, and I don't think it'sserving us and not that
Lee (08:15):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (08:16):
to have clarity about like our values and our
integrity and our commitment forme, at least, a commitment to
life and liberation.
But it is important to me toalso hold space for the humanity
of folks who are doing violence,because I also do violence and
(08:44):
harm That's healing work that Ihave done personally inside of
nonviolent communication andempathy is like turning that on
myself and
Lee (09:00):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (09:01):
decolonizing my own internal voices and my own
internal judgments and reallyactually like connecting more to
my own beautiful needs and allthe ways that I am trying to
meet them, some of them verymisguided.
Some of the strategy is likereally not actually meeting my
needs or at the cost of otherneeds.
(09:22):
And
Lee (09:24):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (09:25):
starting with empathy for the self is a lot of
what we practice and the classesthat I teach and facilitation
that I do and coaching that Ido.
Lee (09:34):
Yeah, that was one of my observations from your work, and
I worked with you in this groupspace of working on conflict in
late 2023, and it was thatawareness of, oh, I thought we
were gonna really jump intoconflict, but it started with
internal empathy.
It started with building empathyand compassion for ourselves.
(09:56):
And I also love what you justshared because I, I really
believe that we're just in sucha binary society and it's good
or bad.
Right?
And even as a person, I, Idefault to the binary so much.
Right?
And
Nicole Bauman (10:13):
totally.
Lee (10:13):
so I wonder about like, how do you, how do you think about
conflict in general?
Nicole Bauman (10:22):
How do I think about conflict in general?
I still am terrified of it, eventhough it
Lee (10:28):
Yeah, really.
Nicole Bauman (10:28):
I do, so I just wanna like hold so much
compassion and dignity formyself, for all of us who are
like so have, have experiencedsuch dysfunctional and harmful
conflict.
Like of course we're scared ofit.
Of course some of us have a bigway where we are like conflict
(10:51):
avoidant and some folks, the,this language here comes a
little bit more from thesomatics background that I'm
trained in, of strozzi andgenerative somatics and
embodying racial justice.
But we talk about towards, or anagainst, or an away as different
ways we show up.
And they're all beautifulstrategies that we have adapted
(11:12):
to, um, try to stay safer insideof conflict moments.
Most of us don't actually havethe tools to, to move with
generativity and actually seeconflict as an opportunity for
more connection.
And that's really the practicethat I have been in and is a
(11:34):
lifelong practice of choosing tothat paradigm shift.
I think really like what ifconflict was actually an
opportunity for deepeninglearning and connection instead
of something to run away fromand, and I see it happening for
people and for myself as Ipractice more.
(11:55):
And I think that self empathy,like you said, I start there in
classes because it's selfempathy, is, is resourcing and
healing and it
Lee (12:08):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:09):
capacity, more bandwidth to have genuine
empathy for another when weoffer that to ourselves and to
be able to be with a wider rangeof emotion, expression,
intensity to just like conflictso often asks
Lee (12:25):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:26):
expand, right?
To expand what we think ispossible for us to hold, to
hear, to receive, to expand ourperspective.
And that's really hard to do ifwe don't feel safe enough
centered enough, held enough toknow that we're not gonna be
obliterated or like lose ourbelonging, lose our
Lee (12:49):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:51):
Yeah.
Lee (12:51):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (12:52):
through being with with another person.
Yeah.
Lee (12:57):
way you talk about the expansiveness of conflict, which
is so different than I, than Ithink our societal understand my
own per my personal, when I hearthe word conflict, I constrict,
I, I want to protect.
And then hearing you talk aboutthis baseline of safety, right?
Nicole Bauman (13:18):
Mm-hmm.
Lee (13:18):
And I'm thinking about this so much right now.
And so how do we move intoconflict when we don't feel
safe?
Or how do we cultivate safety inconflict?
Nicole Bauman (13:30):
Yeah, these are such good questions.
Such important questions such asyou name, just like really
relevant questions and I think,again, this is where self
empathy can come in and for me,as I probably said many times in
the class you were in, empathyis really a body-based practice.
(13:51):
For me, a somatic practice inthat we are tuning in to what
are we feeling.
So I'm trying to think of anexample if I'm like choosing
whether or not I want to like gofilm law enforcement situation
happening on my street.
There's like a lot happening inmy body as I decide whether or
(14:14):
not to do that as white personin a very mixed race
neighborhood, as a genderfabulous, kind of person.
Lee (14:25):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (14:27):
where I, where I can start is like, first I wanna
offer the little caveat of, wewanna be real.
I wanna be really clear that insituations of like overt
violence and abuse, like let'stake care of ourselves and
remove ourselves from asituation and keep ourselves
(14:48):
safe and keep each other safe asmuch as we can.
And in this example, where I'mgoing is like me slowing down
enough to feel my own sense of,um whatever risk, fear,
activation is happening in mybody, anticipating whatever risk
(15:08):
could be very possible andgetting to actually honor it and
like notice what it's pointingme towards, like what does this
tightness in my chest or thisconstriction in my belly, or a
feeling of like curling intomyself, telling me about what I
need and in this case, there'sprobably many needs up, but
(15:31):
slowing down enough to be likegetting curious.
There's something about safetythere.
Something about belonging and myown dignity and if when I can be
in a regular practice of slowingdown and kind of like honoring
and nourishing those things formyself, and then also being live
(15:53):
in the moment able more and moreto notice what is old, like what
of my sense of lack of safety isfear-based or from the past, and
can I reassure my literalnervous system right now that
there's enough safety, I haveenough safety to stay.
(16:16):
And that's like a practice overtime and it's gonna look
different for different bodiesin different situations
obviously, but that, that'swhere self empathy kind of meets
somatic practice.
Trauma healing is likereestablishing our felt sense of
safety and belonging enough toshow up to intense situations,
to literally put my body on theline if I so choose for sake of
(16:41):
my community.
Lee (16:43):
Yep.
And a lot of us are, are makingthese sorts of decisions daily
right now, and, and it feelsreally, you know, to have even
language around this, Nicole isso helpful.
You know, even just slowingdown.
And that's been my own somaticpractice of like, oh, my life is
actually slowing down as I canbe more aligned, really, you
(17:06):
know, brain and body And I justlove that, that self practice as
a starting point, reallypowerful.
Nicole Bauman (17:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is a reprogramming.
I think that
Lee (17:21):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (17:21):
little by little over over time with the
repetition of practice and itdoes shift.
And like
Lee (17:30):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (17:30):
coming into my classes, like you named, people
are like, give me the script forhow to do conflict better.
And that's not what I givepeople.
And I hear back from so manypeople that giving them a
tangible empathy practice doesmake a big difference.
Lee (17:52):
Oh yeah.
It's changed my life quite abit, and so much of what we did
together was really like, I, Ibrought it to my, my personal
life, my community, myneighbors, you know, using it
every day of just this practiceof checking in and slowing down.
I always wondered, is thistaught, you know, or are we born
(18:14):
with it?
Is it then disrupted byoppressive systems of
domination?
Or is it nurture?
Is it nature?
Is empathy learned?
And I wonder what you thinkabout that.
Nicole Bauman (18:26):
Yeah, love these questions and I don't know all
the answers scientifically orneuroscientifically speaking,
but I know my own experience andwhat I have observed around me,
which is that people can and dolearn empathy and Very actively
been dominated out of us in allkinds of ways, socialized out of
(18:51):
us.
That our brains were likeevolved to flourish and learn
best in relationality, in likeattuning and resonating with one
another.
And that, that's empathy is likefeeling with other humans and
(19:13):
feeling for ourinterconnectedness and a lot of
that we lose a lot of that andlose is like an in inadequate
word.
It's like really stolen from us.
It's a cultural wound and aseverance, I think, and, and we
can, we can regrow it, is likethe beauty of neuroplasticity.
(19:38):
And Sarah Peyton is one of myteachers and she's, she, she
started studying nonviolentcommunication decades ago and
then did a deep dive that becameher whole career basically
studying the neuroscience ofwhat is empathy and how does it
work.
And her work has been sotransformative to really help me
(20:02):
really trust the ability of ourbrains to lay down these new
neuro pathways and actually growmore ability to heal with
empathy, with empathic presenceand resonance.
Lee (20:17):
Empathic presence and resonance.
It's part of our humanity, youknow, and I know that, and yet,
you know, Elon Musk said thatempathy is the greatest weakness
of western civilization.
And Hannah Arendt apparentlysaid similar things, that seeing
the lack of empathy is alwaysthe first sign of society being
(20:43):
broken apart and dominated andoppressed.
And it must be really powerfulif people are so set on stealing
it from us, as you sobeautifully said.
And, why is it so powerful thatpeople are set to take it away
from us?
Nicole Bauman (21:02):
Mm-hmm.
Huh.
Yeah, I feel the grief thatcomes up as you ask that
question, as you bring that
Lee (21:09):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (21:11):
because of the way this is being weaponized
right now for, uh, in service ofbillionaires.
Lee (21:22):
Yep.
Nicole Bauman (21:24):
Continuing to amass power at, at the expense
of all of us.
And like truly, I think that isonly possible to, to perpetuate
if you have stopped feeling
Lee (21:37):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (21:39):
like, I guess that that's, that's where I'm
landing.
Like I don't know
Lee (21:42):
Right.
Nicole Bauman (21:44):
and I say that, I'm like, oh yeah, and like me
too, like my life depends on animmense amount of extraction and
violence and colonization thatI've benefited from every day
and
Lee (21:58):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (21:59):
my ability to face that and feel that is what
helps me reclaim my life.
Lee (22:08):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (22:11):
and is like fuel for doing something about it.
And so I often talk aboutthere's one full you may
remember, where we just talkabout feelings and the radical
act of re-accessing feeling andbody sensation as an act of
decolonizing
Lee (22:31):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (22:31):
because it serves those in power if we don't feel,
and if we don't feel, um, theheartbreak of harm that's being
done, we can, we're much morelikely to go along with.
Go along with anything if wedon't see how we're impacted.
Lee (22:54):
Yeah, so much of what you're saying reminds me, most
of my clients are in corporatesettings and so many people who
come to see me, first of all,they're getting this feedback
that they need more executivepresence.
Which is just coded languagefor, you know, professionalism
and at work, but it's alsothey're being told that they're
(23:15):
too sensitive or that they feeltoo much or that they have too
much empathy and so what arepeople who maybe want to
continue in those environments,in those dominating
environments?
How can they still accessempathy or leverage empathy when
(23:36):
they're being told that it is aweakness?
Nicole Bauman (23:40):
Yeah, so painful.
Like I just really feel inlistening to you name all of
that, how crushing these systemsare, like how they many systems,
even the most well-intentionedsettings, most of our
(24:04):
businesses, corporations, likejustice minded spaces are still
set up with a lot of dominationmechanisms in place that don't
make space for us to bring ourfull humanity.
And yeah, there's a number oflayers coming up there with that
(24:25):
question.
I think some of what I'm feelingis just like, how do we keep
making space to grieve that thatkind of narrative or reality is,
is true for some of thecorporate folk that you're
working with.
Lee (24:41):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (24:42):
And making space for grief and rage and feeling
is like a whole other piece ofmy work and practice and
exploration now it feels veryconnected, what we're talking
about.
And the other piece that wascoming through as you were
offering that inquiry, I'm justfeeling for the words.
(25:02):
It's.
How do we also get choicefullike contained in a good way
around when and how we areexpressing what, um, and, and
when we are offering empathy toothers, really remembering that
(25:28):
we wanna be in choice and withinour capacity around that too, or
that's another form of violence
Lee (25:34):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (25:35):
Over extension is often doesn't land as empathy
when
Lee (25:41):
Right.
Nicole Bauman (25:41):
is not centered.
Lee (25:45):
I love that phrase that you shared, which is being in
choice.
And I've heard you say that inyour trainings too.
And I think that is, you know,our, our agency, our ability to
make choices, which anxiety andthese silencing systems can take
away so much.
Right.
(26:06):
And the connection of grief.
And can you talk a little bitmore just about your work in
general?
And you mentioned grief, and Iknow you do conflict navigation
work.
How can folks engage with yourwork?
Nicole Bauman (26:19):
Hmm.
Yeah, thanks for that question.
I, I am really excited about alot of the work that I am
offering right now and reallygrateful for that to be true.
I had a friend ask me recentlyabout like, how are you feeling
about your work in this moment?
And I was just like, actually, Ifeel even more convicted that
(26:41):
what I am up to is necessary.
Given That we are living in,that continues to explode in so
many ways.
so I, these classes we keepreferring to are one of the
things that I offer that it area really wonderful way for folks
to start to connect with mywork.
So Navigating Conflict is aneight week online course that
(27:04):
will actually happen again thisfall, starting at the beginning
of September through the GoodWork Institute.
And all of that can be linked inthe show notes.
And then navigating feedback islike a deeper dive with some of
that same toolkit, which isnonviolent communication, plus
somatics, plus undoingdomination, undoing oppression.
(27:25):
A focus on giving and receivingfeedback with care.
And that will be happening laterthis fall.
And I do one-on-one coachingwith folks too.
And some of that is moreexplicitly conflict coaching,
where we might be working on alive active conflict thing or
communication and conflict toolsand skills.
(27:46):
And then I also do healingcentered coaching, that
incorporates a lot of somaticsand embodiment and is a
container in which I supportfolks around their own healing
for the sake of healing andtransformation.
And especially working withfolks who are doing liberation
work, justice work in some formto really able to show up more
(28:08):
fully to collective liberation.
And, and then I do a variety ofother work.
I'm running my first year longcohort and getting ready to
launch a second year of a cohortcalled Weaving New Ritual with a
co-facilitator.
And this is a year long programthat's for white folks of
(28:28):
Christian Lineage who are usingthe Wheel of the Year to reclaim
ritual fluency and also excavatelike what of this Christian
lineage, might we want to callforward for the sake of
collective liberation and whatmight we need to compost as we
work on unraveling whiteness?
(28:51):
we launched last summer notknowing how timely this work
would be as we see nationalismthe rise.
So for me, as someone who leftthe Christian Church spaces I
grew up in a long time ago, uh,as a queer person for a variety
(29:12):
of reasons, it has beenincredibly powerful to consider
what does it mean for me toactually say this story is mine
too, and there's a differentnarrative possible here, and I
am not, I am not letting theright define this, this
(29:32):
tradition.
And there is so much liberatorynarrative inside of this
lineage.
Um, so up to that work with likeother folks, other folks of
Christian lineage and like whatdoes it mean to really also then
see our like supporting folks ofwhite Christian lineage as Kin
(29:57):
and to like learn how to empathyand connection inside of some of
those most challenging spaces,including with my own relatives,
you know?
I wanna speak the name of SusanRaffo one of my elders and
teachers, a white queer personwho just turned 60 and just
walked across the country lastyear.
(30:19):
She is someone I'm reallylooking to and being inspired
by, as she's done a lot ofthinking and working and feeling
around what does it mean to likereally be in that work of
presence and connection andempathy those who are hardest
other white people to to bewith.
Lee (30:41):
I'm so grateful for you doing this work, all of the
work, but also the self work.
I think that you are reallycreating models for how we all
must do this work.
And you know, so many of myBlack and Muslim and Palestinian
friends have talked about forthe last two years how essential
it is that people who share aJewish lineage and white people
(31:03):
are talking about this.
And so, finding ways to do thiswork within our own communities.
The unraveling, that wordunraveling, unraveling ourselves
and our own narrative and ourown habits and the continue the
domination we witness in so manydifferent levels.
So I'm just grateful to you fordoing that work and modeling it.
Nicole Bauman (31:25):
Mmm.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I am, I'm so grateful to get tobe offering it and holding space
and being in that work withmyself, with others.
Lee (31:37):
I think it's really important also for listeners to
hear how we're all caring forourselves right now.
And it's a hard question, right?
You know, it's this pull betweenlike wanting to be really
involved and to do so much, andthen really knowing that we need
rest and we need healing andsafety.
And so Nicole, what are youdoing to care for yourself right
(32:01):
now?
Nicole Bauman (32:02):
Mm.
Thank you for that question.
We really do need it.
And yeah, I, gardening is one ofthe big ones for me.
And, um, spending a lot of timedigging in the soil and tending
plants and being outside.
I go and walk and hike on theriver trail here where I live
(32:25):
regularly and in other places.
Um.
And spending time with my kidwho's just like a really great
invitation into absurdity andplay and like shifting out of
like I, and it feels soimportant to hold the complexity
of I now more than ever, we needall of us to keep showing up.
Lee (32:51):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (32:51):
like not at cost to ourselves.
So how are we, especially insideof like privilege and self care
culture really
Lee (33:00):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (33:00):
holding nuance around like, yes, we must slow
down and we must care.
For ourselves and each other.
We must be nourished and also ina way that like resources us to
continue and to be in the flow.
And that challenges grind ofcapitalism that says
Lee (33:19):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (33:20):
don't wanna participate in that even while
we all still must survive andtherefore here we are
participating.
Um, so kid time helps me kind oflike transcend all of the
nonsense and.
That is good.
I also weave willow baskets andthat's another way of kind of
transcending the nonsense isgetting really fixated in the
(33:42):
physical craft and the plantsand Yeah.
Lee (33:46):
incredible.
Incredible.
Nicole Bauman (33:49):
And
Lee (33:49):
And that's all connected?
Nicole Bauman (33:50):
too.
Lee (33:52):
Yeah.
Oh, grief ritual.
Nicole Bauman (33:55):
yeah.
Lee (33:56):
Wow.
Nicole Bauman (33:56):
Holding, holding, like being in the collective
healing work is part of takingcare of myself and others also,
and
Lee (34:03):
Yeah.
Nicole Bauman (34:04):
I'm getting ready to host a queer healing retreat
on land this weekend, and I'vejust been preparing herbal
bundles and tea and a griefritual time, but also like we're
gonna just rest and relax and goswimming and piece together and
community.
Lee (34:23):
These moments for all of the range of emotions that we're
gonna feel, you know, and again,it's not binary, it's really
expansive.
Nicole Bauman (34:31):
Right.
Lee (34:33):
Nicole, I'm so grateful just to know you and to learn
from you and for the work thatyou put out in the world and the
way that you can really live inthe spaciousness of it all and
the complexity of it all.
I'm really grateful to you.
Nicole Bauman (34:50):
Taking that in.
I appreciate that.
Just, yeah, so grateful to getto have the space with you also
for the work that you're up toas well.
Lee (34:59):
Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole Bauman (35:02):
You're so welcome.
Thank you.
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