April 30, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of Empathetic Presence, I sit down with Christina Blacken, founder of The New Quo, to explore what leadership really means and how more of us can see ourselves as leaders. Christina talks about how storytelling and narrative shape our behaviors and leadership styles - something she's passionate about in her work. We dive into how true leadership isn't just about being in charge, but about influencing people toward goals that benefit everyone.
Christina shares some powerful insights about navigating leadership challenges, bringing ethical and cultural wisdom into our decision-making, and how each of us can step into leadership in our everyday lives. What I love about our conversation is how Christina balances pragmatic optimism with the importance of collective action - reminding us that meaningful change rarely happens through individual efforts. If you're looking to expand your definition of leadership and find your own authentic way to lead, this episode is for you!
Visit Christina's website: https://www.thenewquo.com/
Learn about her learning community: https://courses.thenewquo.com/products/communities/tnqcommunity
Want to experience Empathetic Presence in action? Join my free monthly workshop and learn tools to express yourself in every setting. Register here.
00:00 Introduction and Today's Topic
00:29 Meet Christina Blacken
01:44 The Power of Narrative in Leadership
02:43 Redefining Leadership
05:52 Understanding Narrative Intelligence
11:17 Pragmatic Optimism and Collective Leadership
20:54 Ethical and Cultural Wisdom
24:40 Engaging with Christina's Work
27:53 Conclusion and Farewell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm your host, Lee Bonvissuto.
Today we're gonna talk about howtoo many of us don't see
ourselves as leaders, and thiscan be particularly harmful in a
society that is actively tellingus that we are not leaders
unless we fall into somedominant default.
(00:29):
I'm so excited to interview mydear friend, Christina Blacken.
Christina is teaching me how touse story as a powerful tool for
behavior change.
Christina helps us understandwhy narrative is so important,
not just in leadingorganizations, but in leading
ourselves.
(00:49):
Christina Blacken runs the NewQuo, a leadership development
and behavior change trainingcompany where she helps leaders
change their beliefs andbehaviors so that they can
overcome bias, deepen trust, andachieve equitable status quo
breaking goals.
She's trained over 14,000people, and I'm so excited to
(01:12):
share our interview here.
Enjoy.
Hey, Christina.
Hey.
Hey.
How's your day going so far?
It's feeling beautiful, althoughheavy, which I think is very
relevant for this time.
It's gray outside.
It's been raining most of thenight facing beautiful prospect
Park, but there's still thisflourishing of greenery and
(01:35):
foliage despite the thegreatness.
Yeah, that's such a beautifulimage and not surprising given
how good you are at tellingstories.
But Christina, you know, can youtell our audience how do you use
your voice?
I.
I primarily am using my voiceright now as a witness.
I think it's important toreflect what's happening in our
(01:56):
times and to put it through thelens of how I digest the world,
which is unique to my personalexperiences and identity and the
values that I care about.
And so I'm reflecting back theethical and cultural wisdom that
we need in this moment to makemore conscious and socially
impactful decisions andcommunications and habits is.
(02:19):
Collective leaders, and I'vedone that as a writer, as a
public speaker, as afacilitator.
And even though it's beenchallenging, because I think
right now this kind ofinformation is being attacked
and criminalized, it justshowcases how important it is to
get these sorts of tools anddifferent kinds of knowledge
into people's hands so we can.
Lead differently in a time wherewe desperately need it.
(02:40):
Yeah.
Lead differently.
Wow.
And something I've heard you sayin your work is that, you know,
so many of us don't seeourselves as leaders and how
society can even tell us thatwe're not leaders.
And so how do we leaddifferently when we might not
see ourselves as leaders?
(03:00):
That's a really great question.
You know, often in the trainingsI've done with organizations, I
ask them, what does an idealleader look like?
I.
And there's some reallyinteresting research that was
done by a professor named ER whowas working with a group of
executives abroad and had askedthis question.
And she asked them to draw whatan ideal leader looks like, and
(03:21):
a majority of them got a pieceof paper and drew somebody in a
suit, someone who phenotypicallylooks male, someone with
straight hair, big ears.
You know, you gotta be able tolisten as a leader.
And what's fascinating is theyreplicated the study multiple
times with different groups andfound the same Malcolm.
And so we've digested a lot ofmedia and stories around
leadership needing to look malepresenting.
(03:42):
Needing to be tall.
I think most presidents are oversix foot.
I don't think we've ever had apresident that's under six foot.
Wow.
Google that and confirmed us incase.
But essentially there's thisreally rigid archetype of
leadership by both cultural andmedia narrative, but also by
historical and policy.
Practice where it barred mostpeople, most demographics from
(04:02):
leadership positions, um, by lawbecause it wasn't legal to be
able to vote unless you were awhite land owning male for many,
many years, especially in theUnited States.
And so I think that has reallycreated these understandable
boxes for people where they feellike, if I'm not a guy, if I'm
not white, if I'm not straight,if I'm not tall, if I'm not able
(04:23):
bodied, I can't be a leaderbecause that's not possible for
me.
It's not allowed.
And undoing those narratives isreally tough because then we see
media like Wolf of Wall Streetand all the quintessential
businessy kind of narrativesthat we get about what
leadership should look like.
That kind of reinforces it.
So I think one of the biggestthings people can do is to
(04:43):
unpack and redefine leadershipoutside of appearance and
outside of domination.
But really what is it about whenit comes to sharing your voice?
Moving people towards a goal anddoing that in a mutually
beneficial way that can create anew status quo that benefits
everyone.
That's a definition ofleadership that I'm excited
(05:03):
about, and ultimately I base alot of my work in.
Wow.
There's so much to unpack there,Christina, which is why I wanted
to interview you because Ireally think that what you're
speaking of is this seismicshift.
And not just in organizationalleadership, but in societal
leadership.
And right now we're justwitnessing so much failure of
(05:26):
leadership and people who arenot good leaders, or they think
that the only way to lead isthrough dominance and control
and fear, and, and you and Iboth know that that's just not
effective.
It just doesn't work to, as yousaid, like move people towards a
goal that's mutually beneficial.
That can really create positivechange for more people.
And you keep using this wordnarrative.
(05:48):
And what do you mean bynarrative?
Can you unpack that a bit?
Yeah.
You know, one of the primarytools, so I've developed a
change model over the last sixyears called the new Quo Change
Model, and it uses neuroscience,which is all about reducing our
responses to change indifference from threats to
rewards.
And it also uses a conceptcalled narrative intelligence,
(06:09):
which is understanding how astory affects bias, belief, and
behavior.
And it also uses a conceptaround DEI, diversity, equity,
and inclusion principles.
So how do you get people toreact to change in difference?
With curiosity, with consciousnarrative, and then ultimately
in a way that can benefit amultitude of people of different
demographics.
And so narrative intelligence,when you boil that down, is a
(06:30):
concept that was developed byartificial intelligence
researchers a few decades ago,and they're really trying to
figure out how do we getalgorithms to organize
information like humans?
Because humans are very uniquein that we organize info in our
brains in a narrative format.
For memory recall, for decisionmaking, just par, the immense
amounts of information we'regetting and kind of automate it
(06:51):
more.
And the great thing about thatis most of our habits are kind
of unconscious and driven bythese internal stories, kind of
like an inner set of librariesthat we use to make decisions
and just decipher information.
The downside of it is if youhave a set of narratives that
are narrow or full ofstereotypes or maybe missing
(07:11):
chapters that it should have.
You might make some inaccuratedecisions, you might make some
biased decisions.
You may not actually make theconnections or build the trust
that you need to achieve certaingoals.
And so being able to expand thesets of narratives that we're
consuming on a regular basisalso makes us more conscious,
intentional, and effective inhow we communicate and also how
(07:31):
we may lead.
So I often teach and talk aboutthat in my leadership model and
also in the learning communitythat I run and the trainings
that I'm doing.
That narrative is one of themost powerful tools for behavior
change, for navigatingdifferences and for achieving
better outcomes.
And that requires, first, thatsort of internal story making,
shifting that, and then usingexternal stories to move people
(07:52):
towards a better future.
The way that you talk aboutstory, I think is so novel and
unique.
A lot of the people in my worldare very intimidated by
storytelling.
That word feels really buzzy andkind of like executive presence,
right?
Like what does that actuallymean and is it a skillset that I
need to work really hard todevelop?
(08:13):
But what you are saying is thatit's far more internal.
And it's really a tool toharness to, and I'm hearing you
talk about, you know, changemanagement, right?
Mm-hmm.
And and even conflictnavigation, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And it's bigger than just thismarketing tool, right?
It's funny too, because I thinkthere was a statistic that came
(08:36):
out a couple years ago that 65%of all of your daily
conversation is in narrativeformat.
So that means there's abeginning, middle, and end.
There's some sort of event.
There's usually atransformation, and that is how
you're conveying information toyour homies, your friends, your
most intimate partners, you.
Family lovers, whatever, andwe're doing it so unconsciously
(08:56):
because it's such an innate wayof humans communicating.
So ironically, we're allstorytellers now.
Some of us get paid to bestorytellers as filmmakers or
entertainers and actors orwriters.
And so we might refine ourstorytelling making skills that.
Creates new experiences or ideasfor people that maybe the
(09:17):
average person isn't doing everyday and they're like anecdotes
of what happened to them thatday or week.
But it's a skill that everyonehas and can ultimately improve.
I think most kids start tellingstories by the age of five.
They're, even if the stories arenonsensical, they're like, the
red ball bounced from Mars andthe trees did X, Y, and Z.
And you're like, what are youtalking about Bobby?
But like they're clearly tryingto convey some kind of.
(09:37):
Idea through narrative.
So what I love about it is it'salready innately a skill you're
using.
It's something that when you'reconscious and intentional with
it, you can then createdifferent outcomes and impacts,
and when you become conscious ofit as well, you can be more
intentional with the stories youconsume.
Because we consume and digestmore information than ever in
(09:58):
human history.
You are, I think there's like aterabyte of information created
every single day and just theamount of messages you're
getting, marketing messages,media messages, like political
messages, societal messages.
It's a lot.
So being able to decipher whichones to keep, which ones to
believe, which ones to put intoyour internal library is
incredibly important for being ahealthy, functioning human.
(10:22):
And so even just learning that,even if you're not creating
stories, but you're being moreconscious of the ones you
consume and tell and keep, thatis also a powerful practice as
well, especially right now withgenerative AI and where things
are going in terms of the speedof information and how it's
being created and who iscreating it.
That's really fascinatingbecause what you're talking
about with conscious andunconscious storytelling, right.
(10:44):
And also the way that narrativecan help us, but also the way it
can hurt us.
Mm-hmm.
And that is really, reallyinteresting.
I've been thinking about this alot in terms of the, the reality
of what we experience and how,you know, if we're complying in
advance, we are actually, youknow, our reality becomes that
(11:06):
fascism is at our doorstep,right?
But how can we activate ourcommunities through narrative to
change our reality?
Yeah.
I think a huge part of.
Narrative making that can bereally destructive, especially
when it comes to politicalmessaging, is apathy and
dystopian storytelling.
(11:26):
The dystopian storytelling forpeople feels like, well, it's
more realistic because it'slooking at the worst case
scenarios and it's preparingpeople.
But ironically, all thisresearch shows that dystopian
storytelling is reallydemotivating.
So if you're constantlyconstructing narratives that.
Things are hopeless, they can'tbe changed.
The worst is going to happen.
You, you don't feel anymotivation to make any changes
(11:47):
'cause it feels like there'snothing in your control and
nothing you can do.
And that is one of the ultimatetools of oppression is this sort
of apathy and hopelessness anddystopia, which is why there's
all this.
Weird sort of narrative makingaround immigrants and minorities
and marginalized populationsbeing others and being dangerous
and destructive because itallows people to then justify
(12:09):
their oppression in thisdystopian sort of fear driven
narrative making.
And we can see that it's notbased in reality or truth, you
know?
And I think that's reallyimportant to keep in mind so
that people can still feel.
Pragmatic optimism andpragmatism, meaning bad things
are happening.
We're not gonna pretend theydon't, but we're also not gonna
pretend that there's absolutelyno solutions and that there's
absolutely.
(12:30):
There are incremental smallthings we can do in our
immediate relationships, in ourcommunities, in our environments
that can move us towards abetter outcome instead of just
sitting and doing nothing.
And so pragma pragmatic optimismmeans you're creating narratives
that are rooted in reality andalso aspirational.
So if we do these thingstogether, what is this positive
(12:51):
incremental outcome that mighthappen?
And I think that's the importantpart of being a leader and
thinking about the narrativesyou're constructing is.
How are you motivating peopletowards a new and better
outcome?
Even if it seems like things arereally challenging in the
moment.
I think most leaders arestruggling with that, right?
There's a lot of uncertainty.
People are really afraid.
They're tired, they're burntout.
(13:12):
There's a lot of instability.
And so as a leader right now,your job is to create a vision.
A vision for the future.
A vision to keep peoplemotivated and engaged, even when
uncertainty is here.
And so I think the narrativemaking piece of that is
incredibly important.
Yeah.
So much of fear can really takeaway that vision.
(13:32):
And Audra Lorde hope is a verb,right?
And so really interesting to.
Collective leadership.
I know you've talked about thata lot.
I've heard you talk about rightnow, in this moment, you know,
we are all the leaders, how canwe all lead?
And I wanna know, you know,you've been internal at
organizations, you've trainedover 14,000 people, you've
(13:53):
worked with giant companies likeNext Door, thinking about
community and really buildingsocietal culture.
And so how do we move thesetools into this moment?
How do we all.
Use story to create change.
How do we all lead?
Christina?
I love that question becausemost people feel like they're
not a leader unless they have aformal title.
(14:16):
And I want people to realizethat leadership is just the
practice of influence.
So if you are getting yourfamily to eat a new vegetable,
if you're getting your friendsto go see that new movie you
were excited about, if you'regetting, you know, your partner
to try this new activity thatyou didn't think they would.
That is an act of leadership andpeople are doing it all the
time.
We just don't recognize itformally because it doesn't have
(14:39):
a big, fancy title attached.
So I think the first thing ispeople getting clear on what's
their, their levers of powerthat they can pull.
And I, I do this often in mylearning community.
So I run a learning communitythat's a weekly newsletter and
mastermind monthly to helppeople to discover what their
unique leadership strengths are.
And one of the activities is apower audit.
So you're essentially figuringout what are kind of my.
(15:00):
Different things that I can pullin my life.
I have like financial power,what?
What's my capital look like?
I have social community capital.
I have knowledge and specificexpertise and skills.
I might be able to use thosethings.
So you look at all yourresources, I.
You look at the challenges orrestrictions you might have, and
then you figure out which onesyou want to pull towards the
goals that you care about.
(15:21):
So for example, the grandma ina, that's a hyper connector,
local woman who really knows howto gather people, has an immense
amount of social capital powerthat she can use to organize
people for the midterm election,for example, like, well,
midterms are important, it'sgonna impact local policies.
I'm gonna start hosting potlucksto get people to learn about it
and get registered to vote andtake them out to the midterm
(15:44):
elections.
That's one example of acollective leadership action
based in your own, you know,expertise in areas of power or
the CEO who has a lot of formalmaybe financial capital and
power, who's like, you knowwhat?
I really wanna choose adifferent compensation model at
my company.
We're gonna work on the conceptof a worker cooperative where.
The employees of theorganization also are co-owners
(16:06):
of the organization, and we'regonna rethink our compensation
structures.
How would that help us toempower the employees, for them
to have more resources to givethem engaged and retained for
the organization and they canmake that decision that creates
more equity and longevity forthat organization.
So those are acts of collectiveleadership where we're all
thinking of our uniquestrengths.
(16:27):
For pulling those things, andwe're seeing how it benefits the
entire group.
And it's funny in the sense thatlike humans are an
interdependent species.
Everything we do is affected byanother human no matter if we
acknowledge it or not.
And so when we lean into thatcollective strength, we can look
at this kind of like theAvengers.
We all have a unique role toplay.
And when we are all aligned toour strengths in a way that's
(16:49):
beneficial to everybody, we allwin.
And I think if we looked at itmore like that versus the zero
sum game that currently ourpolitical leaders are saying.
There's only so many resourcesand only a few of us deserve
them.
And so we can't practicecollective leadership and that
structure with those narrativesand that kind of derails
everybody.
We can't innovate when peopleare not able to eat their basic
needs.
(17:10):
So I'm like, how do we innovateas a species if we can't even
get the basics of food, water,shelter, education, and security
down?
And people are hell bent onpotentially, um, derailing us
from that.
And I think this is the, thepractice of it is everybody in
their own areas of control, intheir own communities making
(17:30):
small actions that align theirdaily habits to their values.
Because if you can close thatgap between what you do make and
say every day with your actualvalues, I think it will benefit
everybody.
It'll kind of have a ripple,almost domino effect.
Yeah, I agree.
And it really takes a certainlevel of confidence for leaders
to engage in shared leadershipand collective leadership.
(17:52):
I know at the height of thepandemic, I worked with this
pizzeria that is employee owned.
I.
And really practicing sharedleadership and even within this
shared leadership structure,having to help every single
employee detangle the narrativesaround power and influence that
are so ingrained in our defaultstructures of hierarchy.
(18:14):
I.
So I really, really respect thatand, and I love that because
what we're seeing right nownationally and at at a lot of
the big companies is realinsecure leadership of leaders
who don't have that confidenceto be able to hear diverse
voices and have more voicesheard at the table, and this
insecurity, this dominance, it'sso toxic and it's such a
(18:36):
reflection of their owninsecurity.
It really is.
I think it's such a great termto call it insecure leadership
because.
The irony of traditionalleadership needing to be very
dominating and transactional.
And impersonal is based in fear,right?
Where you're like, well, I can'tbe seen as weak.
(18:56):
I can't make a mistake.
I can't do things that peoplemight question, and so I'm gonna
just dominate.
Don't take any feedback in,don't share power, and that's
gonna help us feel safe.
And we have all of these.
Really powerful pieces ofinformation and research that
shows that that doesn't work.
It just leads to more distrustand breakdowns, more conflict,
(19:20):
more resource, um, inequity interms of who's getting what they
need.
And it doesn't really create anykind of security whatsoever.
So it's, it's funny that thethings that people are grabbing
for to not feel insecure onlycreates.
More insecurity and instability,and I'm hoping that we're
getting to see in real time thefailures of the dominant
(19:42):
leadership that has beenpedestal and supported and
celebrated in our society, whichis this very transactional,
exploited, dominating style ofleadership is failing
spectacularly.
You know, people are unhappy,they're underpaid, they're
overworked, they are not gettingtheir basic needs met.
And a majority of it is becauseof bad leadership practices.
(20:04):
So I, that's the silver liningof this, is people seeing that,
oh, this narrative that leadershave to be mean and strong and
ruthless and almost sociopathicto be successful is a lie.
And it's always been a lie.
And that's why our society hasstruggled so much.
We have not had a functioning,multicultural.
True democracy anywhere in theworld, in a functioning healthy
(20:27):
way that lasted.
And so we're in an experimentand I think we're seeing some of
that failure of it, but I guessthe silver lining is people are
saying, Hey, actually we need anew narrative around leadership
in general for everyone.
If we're going to survive thismoment and not just survive it
really thrive, how do we movebeyond this moment and build
something that is a legacy thatwe can be proud of and that
(20:50):
isn't just repeating themistakes of the past.
Fascinating.
And you talked about ethical andcultural wisdom.
Can you say more?
Yeah.
So ethical wisdom is really morethan just knowing right from
wrong.
It's really this deepunderstanding of human nature
and our relationship with othersand the world around us, and the
(21:10):
cultivation of character andinsight.
So you can make more valuesdriven decisions and culture.
Wisdom is around collectiveknowledge and insights and
practices that were developedover a generation of time, and
it's really about problemsolving and maintaining harmony.
In our environment and socialstructures, and both of those
kinds of groups of wisdom arethings that we take for granted.
(21:32):
So that's like ecologicalstewardship or alternative
business models, or thinkingabout historical context for why
inequalities exist.
All of these things that arereally useful information to
make more informed decisionsthat typically are overlooked
and now they're beingcriminalized politically in
terms of what can be taught in,in terms of.
Social history and culturalissues.
(21:54):
And so that's one reason why Ifocused and really started to
push my work in this areabecause I think it's information
and knowledge it's gonna becomemore and more challenging to get
access to, and it's some of themost critical things that we
need to have a functioning inhealthy society and really
relationships with one another.
Yeah, absolutely.
I completely agree.
And that's why voices like yoursare so important right now,
(22:16):
because you can remind us ofthis wisdom and also just our
own power.
And I love the way you talkedabout practice of influence and
levers of power.
These words even influence, it'ssuch a weaponized word, right?
Of who feels like they can haveinfluence, and even this idea of
if I'm influential, am Imanipulative?
(22:37):
And you know?
Mm-hmm.
Even the.
The weaponization of the wordpower, right?
Yeah.
There's a lot of lot of hangupsand baggage around language,
which I think is so powerful andinteresting and important, and
why people kind of shy away fromconversations around power or
leadership, and also why I don'teven really talk about
leadership and lead with theinformation and wisdom first and
(22:59):
how it can improve your life,even if it's a practice of
leadership.
Some people really don't feel.
Like, oh, leader, that's not me.
That's not I, I don't, I'm not aCEO.
I'm not a manager, or whatevertheir assumed responses are.
And often it's a block beforepeople even get the chance to
realize that it's a practice.
That all of this is a practiceof building your relational
(23:21):
skills, your conflict resolutionskills, your decision making
skills, your self-reflectionskills, all these things that
can help you to live a.
Better life, a more valuesaligned life, a healthier life,
a more wellbeing in your life.
And I think if you think of theultimate goal, I hope it is
wellbeing.
If we're thinking about likewhat is a goal of a functioning
(23:42):
society?
I would hope it's everybody'swellbeing is, is taken care of
for spiritually, mentally,physically, emotionally.
And if you ask people, how do weget there?
They'd be like, I have no clue.
Right.
So I think this ethical andcultural wisdom is one helping
us to get to.
A society or, or a goal ofwellbeing for everyone.
(24:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I even have a few clients withinthe healthcare space who are now
focused on wellness and that atthe deepest level of what does
it actually mean to care for ouremployees, you know,
particularly in healthcaresettings of caring for the
people who care for the rest ofus and making wellbeing a
priority.
And it's something that has justbeen overlooked in our
(24:24):
capitalist society, and I thinkin, in ways that will continue
with AI and technology andreally taking over our
humanness.
And so I really appreciate yourwork.
I, you know that I think yourwork is the foundation for so
much of our future movingforward.
And so tell us how we can engagewith your work, where we can
find you.
You mentioned a learningcommunity.
(24:46):
Can you tell us some more?
Yeah, so it's called the NewPaul Learning Community.
It's more than a book club.
It's a mastermind informed byneuroscience and psychology and
history, and I send out weeklynewsletters on forward topics.
Which is Undertold history medianews analysis with an equity
lens.
Reveals of tools and strategiesand social justice books that
are targeted by bands and thenoriginal prose that focuses on
(25:09):
social issues.
And all of this information isinformed by this psychology
aspect of expanding the sets ofnarratives that we consume.
The ethical and cultural wisdomthat we take in can help us make
better decisions, bettermulticultural relationships, and
achieve more socially consciousgoals.
And anyone can join.
There's a rolling sort ofadmission.
It's a$10 a month fee for thecontent.
(25:29):
Or$70 a month if they wanna bepart of the Mastermind and they
can join or get more informationat bit.ly/TNQcommunity and TNQ
is capitalized, and I'm hopingthat this is a space for people
who are really wanting to leaninto this information, this
information that's.
Being seen as bad, and there'sexecutive orders trying to
(25:51):
remove some of those kinds ofinformation from schools and
corporate settings.
And I think that individualsseeing the importance of
accurate, truthful storytellingthat inspires them, that gets
them to think differently, thatimproves their creativity and
innovation is so important tobuilding the future that we hope
for And.
Weathering this moment of a lotof anxiety and uncertainty.
(26:13):
So I'm excited to lean into itand continue it.
You know, as a writer, astoryteller, and a facilitator.
And also if people want to justlearn more about me, they can go
to my site, thenewquo.com.
I'm always putting upinformation around my work, and
I do leadership development andtraining for organizations, and
I.
Even though this is a hardmoment, I'm excited in the sense
(26:33):
that more and more people arerealizing that they are the
collective leaders that we need.
They are the leaders that we'vebeen waiting for.
And if more people can see theirpower and even just the small
day-to-day ways that they'reliving their lives, I think
we're going to create somethingbeautiful beyond this moment
that we can't see why quite yet.
But I know it'll be possible.
Yes.
Thank you, Christina.
(26:54):
Thank you for all of the workthat you do, both for
institutions and organizations,but now with this learning
community for us, for thepeople, and your work is so
necessary and important always,especially right now.
I'm so glad and grateful that wehad this conversation.
Well, thank you for elevating anew perspective around us,
(27:14):
owning our voices and spacesthat are high stress and that
don't respect us, and don't seeus as our full.
Wonderful complex beings that weare.
I'm just inspired by the workthat you do because so much of
us need those internal tools,overcoming the hormonal, the
stress, the anxiety, the thingsthat can get in the way of us
being our fullest selves andbeing the collective leaders
(27:35):
that we need.
So I appreciate the space you'remaking and the voices that
you're elevating and amplifying.
I think that's all part of thiswork as well.
So just admire and appreciateyou.
Thank you, Christina, and checkout the show notes for links to
Christina's Learning Communityand The New Quo to learn more
about her important work.
Thanks so much for tuning intothis interview with Christina
(27:56):
Blacken.
Please subscribe to the podcastso you never miss an episode.
Follow us on YouTube where youcan watch us on video share with
a friend and leave us a review.
Welcome back to EmpatheticPresence, a podcast to liberate
our voices.
I'm your host, Lee Bonvissuto.
Today we're gonna talk about howtoo many of us don't see
ourselves as leaders, and thiscan be particularly harmful in a
society that is actively tellingus that we are not leaders
unless we fall into somedominant default.
(00:29):
I'm so excited to interview mydear friend, Christina Blacken.
Christina is teaching me how touse story as a powerful tool for
behavior change.
Christina helps us understandwhy narrative is so important,
not just in leadingorganizations, but in leading
ourselves.
(00:49):
Christina Blacken runs the NewQuo, a leadership development
and behavior change trainingcompany where she helps leaders
change their beliefs andbehaviors so that they can
overcome bias, deepen trust, andachieve equitable status quo
breaking goals.
She's trained over 14,000people, and I'm so excited to
(01:12):
share our interview here.
Enjoy.
Hey, Christina.
Hey.
Hey.
How's your day going so far?
It's feeling beautiful, althoughheavy, which I think is very
relevant for this time.
It's gray outside.
It's been raining most of thenight facing beautiful prospect
Park, but there's still thisflourishing of greenery and
(01:35):
foliage despite the thegreatness.
Yeah, that's such a beautifulimage and not surprising given
how good you are at tellingstories.
But Christina, you know, can youtell our audience how do you use
your voice?
I.
I primarily am using my voiceright now as a witness.
I think it's important toreflect what's happening in our
(01:56):
times and to put it through thelens of how I digest the world,
which is unique to my personalexperiences and identity and the
values that I care about.
And so I'm reflecting back theethical and cultural wisdom that
we need in this moment to makemore conscious and socially
impactful decisions andcommunications and habits is.
(02:19):
Collective leaders, and I'vedone that as a writer, as a
public speaker, as afacilitator.
And even though it's beenchallenging, because I think
right now this kind ofinformation is being attacked
and criminalized, it justshowcases how important it is to
get these sorts of tools anddifferent kinds of knowledge
into people's hands so we can.
Lead differently in a time wherewe desperately need it.
(02:40):
Yeah.
Lead differently.
Wow.
And something I've heard you sayin your work is that, you know,
so many of us don't seeourselves as leaders and how
society can even tell us thatwe're not leaders.
And so how do we leaddifferently when we might not
see ourselves as leaders?
(03:00):
That's a really great question.
You know, often in the trainingsI've done with organizations, I
ask them, what does an idealleader look like?
I.
And there's some reallyinteresting research that was
done by a professor named ER whowas working with a group of
executives abroad and had askedthis question.
And she asked them to draw whatan ideal leader looks like, and
(03:21):
a majority of them got a pieceof paper and drew somebody in a
suit, someone who phenotypicallylooks male, someone with
straight hair, big ears.
You know, you gotta be able tolisten as a leader.
And what's fascinating is theyreplicated the study multiple
times with different groups andfound the same Malcolm.
And so we've digested a lot ofmedia and stories around
leadership needing to look malepresenting.
(03:42):
Needing to be tall.
I think most presidents are oversix foot.
I don't think we've ever had apresident that's under six foot.
Wow.
Google that and confirmed us incase.
But essentially there's thisreally rigid archetype of
leadership by both cultural andmedia narrative, but also by
historical and policy.
Practice where it barred mostpeople, most demographics from
(04:02):
leadership positions, um, by lawbecause it wasn't legal to be
able to vote unless you were awhite land owning male for many,
many years, especially in theUnited States.
And so I think that has reallycreated these understandable
boxes for people where they feellike, if I'm not a guy, if I'm
not white, if I'm not straight,if I'm not tall, if I'm not able
(04:23):
bodied, I can't be a leaderbecause that's not possible for
me.
It's not allowed.
And undoing those narratives isreally tough because then we see
media like Wolf of Wall Streetand all the quintessential
businessy kind of narrativesthat we get about what
leadership should look like.
That kind of reinforces it.
So I think one of the biggestthings people can do is to
(04:43):
unpack and redefine leadershipoutside of appearance and
outside of domination.
But really what is it about whenit comes to sharing your voice?
Moving people towards a goal anddoing that in a mutually
beneficial way that can create anew status quo that benefits
everyone.
That's a definition ofleadership that I'm excited
(05:03):
about, and ultimately I base alot of my work in.
Wow.
There's so much to unpack there,Christina, which is why I wanted
to interview you because Ireally think that what you're
speaking of is this seismicshift.
And not just in organizationalleadership, but in societal
leadership.
And right now we're justwitnessing so much failure of
(05:26):
leadership and people who arenot good leaders, or they think
that the only way to lead isthrough dominance and control
and fear, and, and you and Iboth know that that's just not
effective.
It just doesn't work to, as yousaid, like move people towards a
goal that's mutually beneficial.
That can really create positivechange for more people.
And you keep using this wordnarrative.
(05:48):
And what do you mean bynarrative?
Can you unpack that a bit?
Yeah.
You know, one of the primarytools, so I've developed a
change model over the last sixyears called the new Quo Change
Model, and it uses neuroscience,which is all about reducing our
responses to change indifference from threats to
rewards.
And it also uses a conceptcalled narrative intelligence,
(06:09):
which is understanding how astory affects bias, belief, and
behavior.
And it also uses a conceptaround DEI, diversity, equity,
and inclusion principles.
So how do you get people toreact to change in difference?
With curiosity, with consciousnarrative, and then ultimately
in a way that can benefit amultitude of people of different
demographics.
And so narrative intelligence,when you boil that down, is a
(06:30):
concept that was developed byartificial intelligence
researchers a few decades ago,and they're really trying to
figure out how do we getalgorithms to organize
information like humans?
Because humans are very uniquein that we organize info in our
brains in a narrative format.
For memory recall, for decisionmaking, just par, the immense
amounts of information we'regetting and kind of automate it
(06:51):
more.
And the great thing about thatis most of our habits are kind
of unconscious and driven bythese internal stories, kind of
like an inner set of librariesthat we use to make decisions
and just decipher information.
The downside of it is if youhave a set of narratives that
are narrow or full ofstereotypes or maybe missing
(07:11):
chapters that it should have.
You might make some inaccuratedecisions, you might make some
biased decisions.
You may not actually make theconnections or build the trust
that you need to achieve certaingoals.
And so being able to expand thesets of narratives that we're
consuming on a regular basisalso makes us more conscious,
intentional, and effective inhow we communicate and also how
(07:31):
we may lead.
So I often teach and talk aboutthat in my leadership model and
also in the learning communitythat I run and the trainings
that I'm doing.
That narrative is one of themost powerful tools for behavior
change, for navigatingdifferences and for achieving
better outcomes.
And that requires, first, thatsort of internal story making,
shifting that, and then usingexternal stories to move people
(07:52):
towards a better future.
The way that you talk aboutstory, I think is so novel and
unique.
A lot of the people in my worldare very intimidated by
storytelling.
That word feels really buzzy andkind of like executive presence,
right?
Like what does that actuallymean and is it a skillset that I
need to work really hard todevelop?
(08:13):
But what you are saying is thatit's far more internal.
And it's really a tool toharness to, and I'm hearing you
talk about, you know, changemanagement, right?
Mm-hmm.
And and even conflictnavigation, right?
Yes, absolutely.
And it's bigger than just thismarketing tool, right?
It's funny too, because I thinkthere was a statistic that came
(08:36):
out a couple years ago that 65%of all of your daily
conversation is in narrativeformat.
So that means there's abeginning, middle, and end.
There's some sort of event.
There's usually atransformation, and that is how
you're conveying information toyour homies, your friends, your
most intimate partners, you.
Family lovers, whatever, andwe're doing it so unconsciously
(08:56):
because it's such an innate wayof humans communicating.
So ironically, we're allstorytellers now.
Some of us get paid to bestorytellers as filmmakers or
entertainers and actors orwriters.
And so we might refine ourstorytelling making skills that.
Creates new experiences or ideasfor people that maybe the
(09:17):
average person isn't doing everyday and they're like anecdotes
of what happened to them thatday or week.
But it's a skill that everyonehas and can ultimately improve.
I think most kids start tellingstories by the age of five.
They're, even if the stories arenonsensical, they're like, the
red ball bounced from Mars andthe trees did X, Y, and Z.
And you're like, what are youtalking about Bobby?
But like they're clearly tryingto convey some kind of.
(09:37):
Idea through narrative.
So what I love about it is it'salready innately a skill you're
using.
It's something that when you'reconscious and intentional with
it, you can then createdifferent outcomes and impacts,
and when you become conscious ofit as well, you can be more
intentional with the stories youconsume.
Because we consume and digestmore information than ever in
(09:58):
human history.
You are, I think there's like aterabyte of information created
every single day and just theamount of messages you're
getting, marketing messages,media messages, like political
messages, societal messages.
It's a lot.
So being able to decipher whichones to keep, which ones to
believe, which ones to put intoyour internal library is
incredibly important for being ahealthy, functioning human.
(10:22):
And so even just learning that,even if you're not creating
stories, but you're being moreconscious of the ones you
consume and tell and keep, thatis also a powerful practice as
well, especially right now withgenerative AI and where things
are going in terms of the speedof information and how it's
being created and who iscreating it.
That's really fascinatingbecause what you're talking
about with conscious andunconscious storytelling, right.
(10:44):
And also the way that narrativecan help us, but also the way it
can hurt us.
Mm-hmm.
And that is really, reallyinteresting.
I've been thinking about this alot in terms of the, the reality
of what we experience and how,you know, if we're complying in
advance, we are actually, youknow, our reality becomes that
(11:06):
fascism is at our doorstep,right?
But how can we activate ourcommunities through narrative to
change our reality?
Yeah.
I think a huge part of.
Narrative making that can bereally destructive, especially
when it comes to politicalmessaging, is apathy and
dystopian storytelling.
(11:26):
The dystopian storytelling forpeople feels like, well, it's
more realistic because it'slooking at the worst case
scenarios and it's preparingpeople.
But ironically, all thisresearch shows that dystopian
storytelling is reallydemotivating.
So if you're constantlyconstructing narratives that.
Things are hopeless, they can'tbe changed.
The worst is going to happen.
You, you don't feel anymotivation to make any changes
(11:47):
'cause it feels like there'snothing in your control and
nothing you can do.
And that is one of the ultimatetools of oppression is this sort
of apathy and hopelessness anddystopia, which is why there's
all this.
Weird sort of narrative makingaround immigrants and minorities
and marginalized populationsbeing others and being dangerous
and destructive because itallows people to then justify
(12:09):
their oppression in thisdystopian sort of fear driven
narrative making.
And we can see that it's notbased in reality or truth, you
know?
And I think that's reallyimportant to keep in mind so
that people can still feel.
Pragmatic optimism andpragmatism, meaning bad things
are happening.
We're not gonna pretend theydon't, but we're also not gonna
pretend that there's absolutelyno solutions and that there's
absolutely.
(12:30):
There are incremental smallthings we can do in our
immediate relationships, in ourcommunities, in our environments
that can move us towards abetter outcome instead of just
sitting and doing nothing.
And so pragma pragmatic optimismmeans you're creating narratives
that are rooted in reality andalso aspirational.
So if we do these thingstogether, what is this positive
(12:51):
incremental outcome that mighthappen?
And I think that's the importantpart of being a leader and
thinking about the narrativesyou're constructing is.
How are you motivating peopletowards a new and better
outcome?
Even if it seems like things arereally challenging in the
moment.
I think most leaders arestruggling with that, right?
There's a lot of uncertainty.
People are really afraid.
They're tired, they're burntout.
(13:12):
There's a lot of instability.
And so as a leader right now,your job is to create a vision.
A vision for the future.
A vision to keep peoplemotivated and engaged, even when
uncertainty is here.
And so I think the narrativemaking piece of that is
incredibly important.
Yeah.
So much of fear can really takeaway that vision.
(13:32):
And Audra Lorde hope is a verb,right?
And so really interesting to.
Collective leadership.
I know you've talked about thata lot.
I've heard you talk about rightnow, in this moment, you know,
we are all the leaders, how canwe all lead?
And I wanna know, you know,you've been internal at
organizations, you've trainedover 14,000 people, you've
(13:53):
worked with giant companies likeNext Door, thinking about
community and really buildingsocietal culture.
And so how do we move thesetools into this moment?
How do we all.
Use story to create change.
How do we all lead?
Christina?
I love that question becausemost people feel like they're
not a leader unless they have aformal title.
(14:16):
And I want people to realizethat leadership is just the
practice of influence.
So if you are getting yourfamily to eat a new vegetable,
if you're getting your friendsto go see that new movie you
were excited about, if you'regetting, you know, your partner
to try this new activity thatyou didn't think they would.
That is an act of leadership andpeople are doing it all the
time.
We just don't recognize itformally because it doesn't have
(14:39):
a big, fancy title attached.
So I think the first thing ispeople getting clear on what's
their, their levers of powerthat they can pull.
And I, I do this often in mylearning community.
So I run a learning communitythat's a weekly newsletter and
mastermind monthly to helppeople to discover what their
unique leadership strengths are.
And one of the activities is apower audit.
So you're essentially figuringout what are kind of my.
(15:00):
Different things that I can pullin my life.
I have like financial power,what?
What's my capital look like?
I have social community capital.
I have knowledge and specificexpertise and skills.
I might be able to use thosethings.
So you look at all yourresources, I.
You look at the challenges orrestrictions you might have, and
then you figure out which onesyou want to pull towards the
goals that you care about.
(15:21):
So for example, the grandma ina, that's a hyper connector,
local woman who really knows howto gather people, has an immense
amount of social capital powerthat she can use to organize
people for the midterm election,for example, like, well,
midterms are important, it'sgonna impact local policies.
I'm gonna start hosting potlucksto get people to learn about it
and get registered to vote andtake them out to the midterm
(15:44):
elections.
That's one example of acollective leadership action
based in your own, you know,expertise in areas of power or
the CEO who has a lot of formalmaybe financial capital and
power, who's like, you knowwhat?
I really wanna choose adifferent compensation model at
my company.
We're gonna work on the conceptof a worker cooperative where.
The employees of theorganization also are co-owners
(16:06):
of the organization, and we'regonna rethink our compensation
structures.
How would that help us toempower the employees, for them
to have more resources to givethem engaged and retained for
the organization and they canmake that decision that creates
more equity and longevity forthat organization.
So those are acts of collectiveleadership where we're all
thinking of our uniquestrengths.
(16:27):
For pulling those things, andwe're seeing how it benefits the
entire group.
And it's funny in the sense thatlike humans are an
interdependent species.
Everything we do is affected byanother human no matter if we
acknowledge it or not.
And so when we lean into thatcollective strength, we can look
at this kind of like theAvengers.
We all have a unique role toplay.
And when we are all aligned toour strengths in a way that's
(16:49):
beneficial to everybody, we allwin.
And I think if we looked at itmore like that versus the zero
sum game that currently ourpolitical leaders are saying.
There's only so many resourcesand only a few of us deserve
them.
And so we can't practicecollective leadership and that
structure with those narrativesand that kind of derails
everybody.
We can't innovate when peopleare not able to eat their basic
needs.
(17:10):
So I'm like, how do we innovateas a species if we can't even
get the basics of food, water,shelter, education, and security
down?
And people are hell bent onpotentially, um, derailing us
from that.
And I think this is the, thepractice of it is everybody in
their own areas of control, intheir own communities making
(17:30):
small actions that align theirdaily habits to their values.
Because if you can close thatgap between what you do make and
say every day with your actualvalues, I think it will benefit
everybody.
It'll kind of have a ripple,almost domino effect.
Yeah, I agree.
And it really takes a certainlevel of confidence for leaders
to engage in shared leadershipand collective leadership.
(17:52):
I know at the height of thepandemic, I worked with this
pizzeria that is employee owned.
I.
And really practicing sharedleadership and even within this
shared leadership structure,having to help every single
employee detangle the narrativesaround power and influence that
are so ingrained in our defaultstructures of hierarchy.
(18:14):
I.
So I really, really respect thatand, and I love that because
what we're seeing right nownationally and at at a lot of
the big companies is realinsecure leadership of leaders
who don't have that confidenceto be able to hear diverse
voices and have more voicesheard at the table, and this
insecurity, this dominance, it'sso toxic and it's such a
(18:36):
reflection of their owninsecurity.
It really is.
I think it's such a great termto call it insecure leadership
because.
The irony of traditionalleadership needing to be very
dominating and transactional.
And impersonal is based in fear,right?
Where you're like, well, I can'tbe seen as weak.
(18:56):
I can't make a mistake.
I can't do things that peoplemight question, and so I'm gonna
just dominate.
Don't take any feedback in,don't share power, and that's
gonna help us feel safe.
And we have all of these.
Really powerful pieces ofinformation and research that
shows that that doesn't work.
It just leads to more distrustand breakdowns, more conflict,
(19:20):
more resource, um, inequity interms of who's getting what they
need.
And it doesn't really create anykind of security whatsoever.
So it's, it's funny that thethings that people are grabbing
for to not feel insecure onlycreates.
More insecurity and instability,and I'm hoping that we're
getting to see in real time thefailures of the dominant
(19:42):
leadership that has beenpedestal and supported and
celebrated in our society, whichis this very transactional,
exploited, dominating style ofleadership is failing
spectacularly.
You know, people are unhappy,they're underpaid, they're
overworked, they are not gettingtheir basic needs met.
And a majority of it is becauseof bad leadership practices.
(20:04):
So I, that's the silver liningof this, is people seeing that,
oh, this narrative that leadershave to be mean and strong and
ruthless and almost sociopathicto be successful is a lie.
And it's always been a lie.
And that's why our society hasstruggled so much.
We have not had a functioning,multicultural.
True democracy anywhere in theworld, in a functioning healthy
(20:27):
way that lasted.
And so we're in an experimentand I think we're seeing some of
that failure of it, but I guessthe silver lining is people are
saying, Hey, actually we need anew narrative around leadership
in general for everyone.
If we're going to survive thismoment and not just survive it
really thrive, how do we movebeyond this moment and build
something that is a legacy thatwe can be proud of and that
(20:50):
isn't just repeating themistakes of the past.
Fascinating.
And you talked about ethical andcultural wisdom.
Can you say more?
Yeah.
So ethical wisdom is really morethan just knowing right from
wrong.
It's really this deepunderstanding of human nature
and our relationship with othersand the world around us, and the
(21:10):
cultivation of character andinsight.
So you can make more valuesdriven decisions and culture.
Wisdom is around collectiveknowledge and insights and
practices that were developedover a generation of time, and
it's really about problemsolving and maintaining harmony.
In our environment and socialstructures, and both of those
kinds of groups of wisdom arethings that we take for granted.
(21:32):
So that's like ecologicalstewardship or alternative
business models, or thinkingabout historical context for why
inequalities exist.
All of these things that arereally useful information to
make more informed decisionsthat typically are overlooked
and now they're beingcriminalized politically in
terms of what can be taught in,in terms of.
Social history and culturalissues.
(21:54):
And so that's one reason why Ifocused and really started to
push my work in this areabecause I think it's information
and knowledge it's gonna becomemore and more challenging to get
access to, and it's some of themost critical things that we
need to have a functioning inhealthy society and really
relationships with one another.
Yeah, absolutely.
I completely agree.
And that's why voices like yoursare so important right now,
(22:16):
because you can remind us ofthis wisdom and also just our
own power.
And I love the way you talkedabout practice of influence and
levers of power.
These words even influence, it'ssuch a weaponized word, right?
Of who feels like they can haveinfluence, and even this idea of
if I'm influential, am Imanipulative?
(22:37):
And you know?
Mm-hmm.
Even the.
The weaponization of the wordpower, right?
Yeah.
There's a lot of lot of hangupsand baggage around language,
which I think is so powerful andinteresting and important, and
why people kind of shy away fromconversations around power or
leadership, and also why I don'teven really talk about
leadership and lead with theinformation and wisdom first and
(22:59):
how it can improve your life,even if it's a practice of
leadership.
Some people really don't feel.
Like, oh, leader, that's not me.
That's not I, I don't, I'm not aCEO.
I'm not a manager, or whatevertheir assumed responses are.
And often it's a block beforepeople even get the chance to
realize that it's a practice.
That all of this is a practiceof building your relational
(23:21):
skills, your conflict resolutionskills, your decision making
skills, your self-reflectionskills, all these things that
can help you to live a.
Better life, a more valuesaligned life, a healthier life,
a more wellbeing in your life.
And I think if you think of theultimate goal, I hope it is
wellbeing.
If we're thinking about likewhat is a goal of a functioning
(23:42):
society?
I would hope it's everybody'swellbeing is, is taken care of
for spiritually, mentally,physically, emotionally.
And if you ask people, how do weget there?
They'd be like, I have no clue.
Right.
So I think this ethical andcultural wisdom is one helping
us to get to.
A society or, or a goal ofwellbeing for everyone.
(24:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I even have a few clients withinthe healthcare space who are now
focused on wellness and that atthe deepest level of what does
it actually mean to care for ouremployees, you know,
particularly in healthcaresettings of caring for the
people who care for the rest ofus and making wellbeing a
priority.
And it's something that has justbeen overlooked in our
(24:24):
capitalist society, and I thinkin, in ways that will continue
with AI and technology andreally taking over our
humanness.
And so I really appreciate yourwork.
I, you know that I think yourwork is the foundation for so
much of our future movingforward.
And so tell us how we can engagewith your work, where we can
find you.
You mentioned a learningcommunity.
(24:46):
Can you tell us some more?
Yeah, so it's called the NewPaul Learning Community.
It's more than a book club.
It's a mastermind informed byneuroscience and psychology and
history, and I send out weeklynewsletters on forward topics.
Which is Undertold history medianews analysis with an equity
lens.
Reveals of tools and strategiesand social justice books that
are targeted by bands and thenoriginal prose that focuses on
(25:09):
social issues.
And all of this information isinformed by this psychology
aspect of expanding the sets ofnarratives that we consume.
The ethical and cultural wisdomthat we take in can help us make
better decisions, bettermulticultural relationships, and
achieve more socially consciousgoals.
And anyone can join.
There's a rolling sort ofadmission.
It's a$10 a month fee for thecontent.
(25:29):
Or$70 a month if they wanna bepart of the Mastermind and they
can join or get more informationat bit.ly/TNQcommunity and TNQ
is capitalized, and I'm hopingthat this is a space for people
who are really wanting to leaninto this information, this
information that's.
Being seen as bad, and there'sexecutive orders trying to
(25:51):
remove some of those kinds ofinformation from schools and
corporate settings.
And I think that individualsseeing the importance of
accurate, truthful storytellingthat inspires them, that gets
them to think differently, thatimproves their creativity and
innovation is so important tobuilding the future that we hope
for And.
Weathering this moment of a lotof anxiety and uncertainty.
(26:13):
So I'm excited to lean into itand continue it.
You know, as a writer, astoryteller, and a facilitator.
And also if people want to justlearn more about me, they can go
to my site, thenewquo.com.
I'm always putting upinformation around my work, and
I do leadership development andtraining for organizations, and
I.
Even though this is a hardmoment, I'm excited in the sense
(26:33):
that more and more people arerealizing that they are the
collective leaders that we need.
They are the leaders that we'vebeen waiting for.
And if more people can see theirpower and even just the small
day-to-day ways that they'reliving their lives, I think
we're going to create somethingbeautiful beyond this moment
that we can't see why quite yet.
But I know it'll be possible.
Yes.
Thank you, Christina.
(26:54):
Thank you for all of the workthat you do, both for
institutions and organizations,but now with this learning
community for us, for thepeople, and your work is so
necessary and important always,especially right now.
I'm so glad and grateful that wehad this conversation.
Well, thank you for elevating anew perspective around us,
(27:14):
owning our voices and spacesthat are high stress and that
don't respect us, and don't seeus as our full.
Wonderful complex beings that weare.
I'm just inspired by the workthat you do because so much of
us need those internal tools,overcoming the hormonal, the
stress, the anxiety, the thingsthat can get in the way of us
being our fullest selves andbeing the collective leaders
(27:35):
that we need.
So I appreciate the space you'remaking and the voices that
you're elevating and amplifying.
I think that's all part of thiswork as well.
So just admire and appreciateyou.
Thank you, Christina, and checkout the show notes for links to
Christina's Learning Communityand The New Quo to learn more
about her important work.
Thanks so much for tuning intothis interview with Christina
(27:56):
Blacken.
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