February 27, 2025 • 27 mins
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Are you struggling to land job interviews despite sending out countless applications? This episode dives into the critical errors that job seekers often make in their search for employment. From the pitfalls of blindly applying to positions without a clear understanding of job requirements to the persistent importance of networking, we discuss effective strategies to turn your job search from a frustrating experience into a successful endeavor.
Our host shares personal insights and highlights common trends observed in today's hiring climate, demonstrating how many applicants overlook crucial details and fail to stand out among applicants. We emphasize the value of understanding the firms you're applying to, fostering genuine connections, and effectively leveraging your network to increase your chances of getting hired. The conversation delves into the nuances of communicating with potential employers and how to take your job search offline in an increasingly digitized-world.
By the end of this episode, you'll have a refined approach to job searching, along with practical tips and strategies for making meaningful connections that resonate with employers. Join us and transform your job search experience—because a more personalized approach makes all the difference! If you find value in our discussions, subscribe, share with others, and leave a review!
If you enjoyed this episode of the Employee Survival Guide please like us on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. We would really appreciate if you could leave a review of this podcast on your favorite podcast player such as Apple Podcasts. Leaving a review will inform other listeners you found the content on this podcast is important in the area of employment law in the United States.
For more information, please contact our employment attorneys at Carey & Associates, P.C. at 203-255-4150, www.capclaw.com.
Disclaimer: For educational use only, not intended to be legal advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Mark and I wanted to talk today about how
not to job search like the wrongway.
There is a wrong way and youneed to understand this.
And I'm going to say this frompersonal experience, because I'm
in the job search mode, meaningthat I'm trying to hire, and I
wanted to give you my personalexperience of that and what not
(00:23):
to do.
So here's at it.
I just felt really compelled toshare this after a meeting I
was having today with a friendof mine.
The fellow's name is NickKorkodilius.
He's a guy he's called Ask theHeadhunter.
He's got his own brand newwebsite and he's been around for
many, many years, and we gotinto a topic we were just
(00:47):
talking about job hiring andexplaining my issues with it,
and it just started to make methink I'm like yeah, I'm an
employment lawyer and I reallyhaven't talked about this issue
ever in terms of, like, job hire, but the current environment is
absolutely insane in terms ofwhat people have to go through.
So I'm just going to share myexperience of what I'm seeing,
(01:10):
and I'll start with this.
It starts with the premise of,you know, federal employees
losing jobs left and right.
A bunch of lawyers who are justyou know, have a job or had one
out there, like as of two daysago, for an employment attorney,
and I was getting hits forpeople who were didn't have any
(01:35):
employment experience at all.
So that's the first red flagDon't apply to jobs that the job
doesn't fit your qualifications.
I mean, I was looking for anemployment attorney and people
were sending me applications,I'm like, but then I clearly
rejected them because theydidn't fit the requirement.
So first thing to don't do donot do this.
(01:58):
Don't just randomly throw yourapplication, your resume, to the
wind and see if it's going tostick, because that process
doesn't work.
So look at the ad and I'll tellyou this.
This happened to me twice sofar.
I posted this job in twodifferent time periods, like
over several months.
The first time I posted it, Iwas getting the same type of
reaction and I edited the ad andI said in bold letters don't
(02:23):
apply to this ad if you do nothave implement law experience.
And guess what, people stillapply to the ad.
So I don't think people arereading the ads and that was the
one takeaway from myconversation with Nick today
that people are not reading theads.
Or maybe they're hiring AIdevices to screen filter,
whatever.
That process is not working foryou.
(02:43):
You're not going to get hired.
Okay, stop.
The next thing is just merelythe quantity of people throwing
their things to the wind.
That process doesn't workeither.
Okay, you're just, you know,sending a prayer to the wind and
hopefully someone reads it.
I'm a human being.
I'm reading all theapplications.
There's no AI bot between theresume coming in.
(03:06):
In this case, I was usingLinkedIn.
I was trying to use Indeed, butthat's a fail.
As an employer searching forIndeed, that tool did not work
for me.
So LinkedIn is a little bitbetter in terms of the.
You know there's a system there, but I'm a human being looking
(03:29):
at every single resume that'scoming in.
It's hitting my feed and myemail.
As soon as something comes in,I'm looking at it and I can
immediately screen it and I canselect, reject.
So, as a human being reading it,I'm still seeing people without
the right qualifications, andmy job ad was very specific.
I went to the great lengths toexplain what the job
(03:51):
requirements were, et cetera.
Years of experience I wanted,if you're admitted to various
jurisdictions like New York,connecticut, and people still
were applying for it, and maybebecause it had the word remote
in it because my attorneys in myoffice do work remotely and
also work in the office, butprimarily remote Remote works.
(04:14):
By the way, folks, it'sactually highly productive for
us.
Technology is king, so it works.
But I was screening thesemyself and no AI bot was doing
it and I was just troubled with,you know, the lack of insight
or the inability for thecandidates to.
(04:36):
You know, look me up what we doand you know what I was asking
for and I was just shocked thatthat's the level of engagement
that you know people are notengaging, they're not
investigating.
So, red flag, don't do that.
Don't throw the application tothe job ad you see in LinkedIn.
(04:56):
Do something different.
What should you do, mark?
Well, do this.
If you see a job ad, find outabout the firm.
Figure out first is that thefirm you want to work at?
Don't get, I don't know.
Maybe people get in the moneyeyes and they see the salary
range issue and they just wantto throw it at it, or they're
(05:18):
getting desperate becausethey're getting canned by the
administration in Washington.
They're just getting fearfuland need a job.
That's a red flag too.
But like somebody from DClooking for a job in Connecticut
.
You only do that because youlost a job and you wouldn't have
otherwise approached my officein a normal state of
(05:38):
circumstances because you wantto become an employment lawyer.
It's like red flag.
It's just.
People cannot see that.
So the right thing to do is yousee a job ad.
Some company's hiring CaryAssociates is hiring my law firm
.
Why don't you find spend thetime to research about that firm
?
If you're an attorney, you haveaccess to court system and
(05:59):
dockets.
You can actually spend a lot oftime to understand that
employer.
Why do you do that?
Well, because I want you to dothat.
I want you to figure out ifyou're a right fit for me and
I'm a right fit for you.
But so many people don't dothat.
This came up during aconversation with my friend Nick
today.
Not one person who applied.
There was like 80 resumes thatcame in over a short period of
(06:21):
time and not one of them tookthe gumption to call me or send
me an email unsolicited.
So I sent emails.
I was doing that veryproactively with them, but no
one solicited me directly.
You should be doing thatbecause they saw a job ad and
(06:44):
they were saying things aboutthe firm and what they saw in
the firm, what the firm wasdoing, and they actually took a
look at it.
I'd pay attention to thatattorney, that applicant,
because that showed that theyhad interest.
So stop this script that youthink you should follow, that
(07:04):
you can't contact the owners orthe managers of the employer.
Contact them.
I mean, that was actuallyNick's advice as well and I
agree, and years ago when I toldNick this story, that when I
started out and I just had noexperience this is now 28 years
ago I say a lot, I'm a lot.
Sorry, I apologize because I'mtrying to think through the
(07:25):
thoughts, but I actuallycontacted a lot of known
attorneys, had more years ofexperience before when I just
started, and they were receptiveand I wasn't asking for a job,
I was just simply asking hey,what is it like to be an
employment lawyer?
How did you go about it?
What are you doing?
And I knew who I was talking tobecause I can look them up.
Back then you had some semblanceof internet yeah, very basic
(07:49):
internet and I even asked, youknow, to come and talk to my
friend, bob Mitchell, who's anattorney in Connecticut.
He doesn't remember thismeeting, but I do because I sat
in his office and I asked himbecause I was young, you're
impressionable, you rememberthis, and I learned a lot from
him and through conversationswith similar folks who are
(08:09):
attorneys, who are alreadypracticing many years in advance
.
And I encourage you to do that.
Don't ask for well, don't tellthem you want a job, but you
just say you want to network anddo the old fashioned way.
That's the way it works thesedays.
It's through networking.
(08:30):
I heard stats that most peopleare getting jobs not through
LinkedIn, but they're gettingjobs through, you know, word of
mouth or networking and that'sand my friend, nick shared this
input with me because he was arecruiter and he's writing in
that field.
I was like shocked.
I thought the other way around,it was happening that people
were going through these massivedata banks like LinkedIn, but
that's not the case.
The other thing we talked aboutwas this.
(08:52):
It's called algorithmic biasand there was a case with Derek
Mobley versus I think it'sWorkspace or something, and,
excuse me, he applied for like100 jobs and was randomly denied
because of discrimination.
He eventually sued them.
It was a court case.
I think I did a podcast aboutit.
(09:15):
So the AI bot is obviouslyscreening from both angles from
the employee side and from theemployer side.
So there's no human there sideand from the employer side.
So there's no human there andthat's a problem because there's
implicit bias within thatalgorithm, I guess, and you
don't have to go through thatprocess.
You can bypass, you don't haveto accept that's the way you
(09:40):
have to do it.
There's another way Do your ownindividual research about an
employer.
Nick was sharing examples wherepeople basically targeted three
different companies they reallywanted to work for and they just
went out and talked to andcontacted the people at these
companies and guess what?
People were really happy tohear what they had to say and
(10:05):
gave them some airtime.
It takes some persistence, butdo your homework about who
you're targeting.
Find out what it is theyactually do.
Don't just throw a resume atthe situation and don't send a
cover letter, please.
It's really drives me insane.
Don't send a cover letter.
That is, it tacitly touchesupon what we do and doesn't
(10:28):
really answer the question aboutyou know, are you qualified for
the job?
That's in the application.
So people do that a lot and Ithink it's maybe out of fear or
whatever it is, if you want ajob at a certain location and
you really know what you want.
Target the employer and goafter it.
Don't be shy.
I would appreciate someone whohad the gumption and the guts to
(10:51):
reach out in a very articulatedway to have a discussion about
my firm, what I do, how I serveas clients, our business,
whatever it is, and then notabout you, and have just have a
regular discussion instead ofthis.
You know, I guess this scriptof you know, applicant and
employer that people follow itdoesn't work, and talking with
(11:15):
Nick today, actually it made meremember that you know that is
not the way things are done.
You have to really set yourselfapart.
I know you hear that a lot.
Set yourself apart, I know youhear that a lot, but I didn't
have that experience and I hadto basically hire myself.
That's not the common way ofdoing things, but I will tell
(11:37):
you, as an employment lawyer,I've learned over the years that
if people and I've hired manypeople, many people the more
genuine you are, the moretransparent you are about what
your goal, aspiration is.
Try to figure out and maybeI'll do it this way that I'm
looking for.
(11:59):
When I'm looking for a candidate, I'm looking for a fit.
You know, yeah, you got to havea law degree, yeah, you got to
have employment law experience,but you could be the worst
candidate possible with a badattitude.
I'm not going to hire you.
I'm looking for, and you needto figure out through
questioning and have discussion,like with people, what is the
fit that this employer wants ofthe particular person.
(12:19):
It's a personality.
It's possibly you have to learnand ask questions and probe the
employer.
You know, is it remote work?
Is it working in a silo?
Do you guys get together?
What's the culture?
Like you know, in my sharedexperience in interviews, I talk
about what is my culture.
A lot, I actually go to the nthdegree to talk about it.
(12:39):
We have you've heard me talkabout it we have employment
contracts for termination, forcause?
We have, you know, lengthyvacation times, because I want
people to take vacations awayand so they don't burn out.
We pay for the gym membershipand we, you know, use technology
as most I'm sure most companiesdo.
(13:00):
But we use technology to bridgethe gap between space and time,
to allow this person to workanywhere they want.
I mean, I work remotely from alot of different places,
effortlessly, and I'm connectedto my systems.
So learn about what theemployer is like.
Spend the time it could nailyou a job.
I'll give you a trick that Nickshared with me today.
(13:21):
Thanks, nick.
He said he had done this in hisown career, whereby he asked to
meet with people and he saidcan you recommend whomever else
I can talk to, et cetera.
And he did, and he went off andhe didn't get any of those jobs
.
And then the person he askedthe original person says why did
you ever ask us for a job?
(13:41):
And he then said, after he washired by that employer, he says
well, that was a trick all along.
I intentionally did that so,and it took him a year to do
that.
So you know, try differenttactics to get your foot in the
door, but have a discussion.
But anything you've learned fromthis episode is do not throw
(14:03):
your resume into the pipeline ofnonsense that you see, and you
can start there, but don't endthere.
Pick the phone up, diligent.
How about being persistent in arespectful way?
Contact me, find out what I'mdoing, find out what court cases
I'm working on, that I'm tryingto move and shake with Anything
(14:26):
to get a conversation going,because it's all public, it's
out there.
I mean my situation is veryeasy.
You can read about what I'mworking on, that I'm trying to
move and shake with anything toget a conversation going,
because it's all public, it'sout there.
I mean my situation is veryeasy.
You can read about what I'mdoing and to have it, you know,
invite me to have a conversation, but you got to have the
qualifications first.
Read the darn job ad and don'tjust, you know, throw your thing
into the to the job hopper onan ad post and think it's going
(14:48):
to stick.
It's not.
That's the wrong way to do it.
I was a human being, rejectingthings out of hand as soon as
they came in because they didnot have the basic requirements
of the job.
Read the job.
Don't rely upon some AI bot todo it for you.
Spend the time.
This is involving your income.
I'm shocked that people areactually doing this Like they
would literally risk theopportunity loss.
(15:12):
But a computer to screen themaway from a potential job,
because these computers get itwrong all the time.
And if you're doing that,that's a huge mistake.
But I think what our culturetoday is is geared towards that
and people don't know any betterbecause people don't tell them.
So that was my messaging today.
It was like let people knowthat's the wrong way to job
(15:33):
search.
Don't use the throw it to thewind or an AI bot or anything to
mechanically drive your jobsearch.
Do it the old fashioned way.
Where I'm a human being, I wantto be contacted, I want to know
Thank you.
Demonstrate that you have theskill set.
(15:58):
Demonstrate you have the driveand the ability to service the
clients in the way that theemployer is doing that.
But do not go about the jobsearch through your computer
like that and just expect anyresults.
I mean you could end up likeDerek Mobley, who did exactly
that and he got rejected.
(16:20):
That was the lawsuit.
He was being discriminatedagainst because he was an
African-American male, and soit's a great example.
I'm sorry that happened to him,but these devices, this
technology, it's fallible andyou need to be aware that
(16:40):
there's a different way of doingthis, and that way of doing it
is the old-fashioned way puttingyour name to a communication of
some form.
Be diligent about it,persistence with it.
It demonstrates that you wantto join the employer because
you're trying everything you can.
You're trying everything youcan.
So if that helps you in yourjob search and gets you out of
(17:03):
your wrong thinking red flagsall day long, thinking about
using AI or throwing resumes outthere because you're scared
shitless to.
You need a job because thefederal government just fired
you, whatever.
Just get out of that mindset.
Change your mindset.
Go back to if I was an employer.
How would I want somebody tocontact me about a job search,
(17:27):
even a networking that they wereinterested in?
And do those things with thatperson in terms of your job
search.
Get the attention of people.
We're all busy.
Yes, we get tons of email.
We're doing you know a thousandthings every single day and
we're exhausted at the end ofthe day.
But if you just take the time tocommunicate like a human being,
(17:49):
as a professional here, in thecase of an attorney, you're
going to get reception to itbecause people listen to that.
I mean I'm going to listen tosomebody who's going to say in a
very articulated way thatthey're interested in what I'm
doing.
I want to know that you'reinterested in what the mission
statement is.
So I'm repeating myself, butfor a reason it's just
(18:10):
incredibly disturbing to have toreject so many candidates
because they commit the samemistake each time they did it.
I mean we're talking I don'tknow 80 times.
I mean they're all doing thesame thing, they're all
committing the same mistake.
Not one of them reached out tome.
And then I can just add this,because I'm fresh off an
(18:33):
interview.
I'm just going to share thiswith you.
I don't do interviews like youthink that I do them, and I'm
not going to ask you silly,stupid questions about you.
Know what color is yourparachute or whatever the
nonsense that goes on in thereal world.
The right way to do aninterview is, in my opinion, if
I'm hiring because I want to paysomebody $200,000 a year, is I
(18:54):
want to have a conversation, I'mgoing to find out about you and
I'm going to do it over alonger period of time.
It's going to bug you, butthat's intentional.
I'm trying to have a slow hirebecause I'm going to get to know
you, all your quirks and allyour things, and you're going to
get to know me and you're goingto figure out whether it's a
fit for you, whether it fits forme.
That's intentional and that'sthe way I do interviews.
(19:16):
Now, is it perfect?
Well, it's definitely lessstressful for both sides.
I'm going to check out how manycases you're on the federal
court docket and how many timesyou've done it or this, that,
and try to figure out thebaseline and what I need to grow
in terms of your workexperience.
I can do all that.
On my side, I try to have aconversation with people so that
(19:40):
they're not so, they're at easeand we're talking in a
conversational manner.
It's designed to bring out likehow you are as a person.
You know what makes you tick,personal experiences you have.
But it's very fluid.
It's not based upon stupidquestions that you may get wrong
or any screening device thatyou've got to.
(20:00):
I can't believe people have todo this I think my kids had to
do this where you getinterviewed by a darn computer
and there's a company out thereselling this service for
millions and millions of dollarsto corporations nationwide and
I forget the name of thesoftware company.
But that's insane.
Like you can't even have acommunication about something so
(20:21):
vitally important to your joband you got to do it with a
computer first.
That's crazy making.
I do it old-fashioned way.
I get the person on a Zoom call, have a discussion.
I don't put a time limit on thecall and we just start to
brainstorm conversations aboutvarious issues.
Obviously, I'm working with aresume, but I'm also
(20:42):
communicating what's happeningin a very conversational style,
without pressure, because Idon't want you to be stressed in
my job interview with me,because I want to have you feel
more relaxed.
That's the way to go about thejob interview.
Some people may object, you know, but you're not going to learn
something from somebody who'sunder stress.
(21:03):
That never works and I don'twant to.
You know, put you through thepaces of that and I want to have
a more robust, colorfulconversation filled with humor,
filled with just naturalreactions, instead of you know
you working from a stress, youknow sense of your presence
(21:23):
there and you're under.
You know you need a job orsomething like that or whatever
that happens in a job interview.
So the job interview I do isdesigned to bring out the person
you really are, not the personthat's sitting there in front of
on paper.
That's kind of stale, black andwhite, you know print.
It's like there's a real personthere and I'm trying to bring
that out through conversationand people are really receptive
(21:45):
to that and I'll take my timebecause I want to make sure that
you're working with me for along time.
By the way, employment lawyersand most lawyers are most
employers cannot promise youlifetime employment.
They can't say you're gonna beworking here a long time.
Well, it's illegal to do thatbecause in the sense that
somebody will sue you for breachof contract if you ever hear
(22:07):
that.
So just a little tidbit.
But I'm looking for a longertrust building situation from
the get-go and that conversationis designed to do that.
My whole process is designed todo that.
I think most employers don't dothat because of the evidence of
how much they're using AI.
I mean, where's the trust inthat process?
I mean shit, there's no trustin that process.
(22:28):
So there's a way to deal withthis, folks, and it's not
through a computer.
Start with the computer to getyour data and your input, but
write letters.
You'd be surprised at howcreative you can get to get
somebody's attention.
We're all busy, I get it, butif you think hard enough, you
can send a FedEx to somebody andthey'll open it potentially.
(22:50):
Or just show up at their officeor something to get their
attention that you're seriouslyinterested in a job at the
employment place of work.
So I just wanted to call thatout.
That was on my mind.
Today I had a conversationabout this.
I wanted to share it.
(23:11):
I don't normally talk about jobinterview stuff or recruiting
stuff.
Maybe I think I should in termsof because I do see a lot of
this material or this in thework that I do.
We don't generally have, youknow, cases where people sue
people for, you know, failure tohire.
(23:31):
It's kind of a hard case toprove and I have been thinking
about this aspect of you knowthe other side of you know, the
category of employment is really, you know, job search and
career coaching.
I mean, I am kind of doing thatthrough the podcasts and the
episodes we're doing.
I'll lean in a little bit morefor you from what I see.
(23:54):
I'm not perfect.
I think there's a variety ofways, you know, to career coach
and there's, I'm sure, a lot ofcoaches out there quote unquote
coaches.
But I just basically give youwhat I see in terms of the cases
we're litigating, the caseswe're dealing with employers and
they do have a kind of asystematic pattern to them and
(24:19):
you can kind of know it and yousee it and you hear this pattern
through my discussions with you.
Likewise, I'm giving you alittle pattern today because I'm
job searching or at leasttrying to fill a position, and a
little feedback for you.
And also I listened to a lot ofwhat other people say in terms
of my friend.
Nick's a recruiter for a longtime.
(24:39):
He's asked that headhunter.
He's a famous guy, so I enjoyspeaking with him and I learn a
lot.
So I'm just giving a littlefeedback back to you.
Red flags don't do certainthings.
Do do certain things aboutgetting to know your employer on
a personal level.
We appreciate if you can reachout to us and take the extra
effort.
I mean, I'm not kidding.
It would send a loud messagethat you're interested in that
(25:03):
job.
So I'll leave it at that.
Hope you enjoyed this episodeand my thoughts about this.
This really did bug the shitout of me and I wanted to share
it with you.
Sorry for the language today,but it does really bug me
because people just do notlisten or read what they're
applying for.
So please stop doing that anddo it the way I suggested.
Okay, thanks, have a great week.
It's Mark and I wanted to talk today about how
not to job search like the wrongway.
There is a wrong way and youneed to understand this.
And I'm going to say this frompersonal experience, because I'm
in the job search mode, meaningthat I'm trying to hire, and I
wanted to give you my personalexperience of that and what not
(00:23):
to do.
So here's at it.
I just felt really compelled toshare this after a meeting I
was having today with a friendof mine.
The fellow's name is NickKorkodilius.
He's a guy he's called Ask theHeadhunter.
He's got his own brand newwebsite and he's been around for
many, many years, and we gotinto a topic we were just
(00:47):
talking about job hiring andexplaining my issues with it,
and it just started to make methink I'm like yeah, I'm an
employment lawyer and I reallyhaven't talked about this issue
ever in terms of, like, job hire, but the current environment is
absolutely insane in terms ofwhat people have to go through.
So I'm just going to share myexperience of what I'm seeing,
(01:10):
and I'll start with this.
It starts with the premise of,you know, federal employees
losing jobs left and right.
A bunch of lawyers who are justyou know, have a job or had one
out there, like as of two daysago, for an employment attorney,
and I was getting hits forpeople who were didn't have any
(01:35):
employment experience at all.
So that's the first red flagDon't apply to jobs that the job
doesn't fit your qualifications.
I mean, I was looking for anemployment attorney and people
were sending me applications,I'm like, but then I clearly
rejected them because theydidn't fit the requirement.
So first thing to don't do donot do this.
(01:58):
Don't just randomly throw yourapplication, your resume, to the
wind and see if it's going tostick, because that process
doesn't work.
So look at the ad and I'll tellyou this.
This happened to me twice sofar.
I posted this job in twodifferent time periods, like
over several months.
The first time I posted it, Iwas getting the same type of
reaction and I edited the ad andI said in bold letters don't
(02:23):
apply to this ad if you do nothave implement law experience.
And guess what, people stillapply to the ad.
So I don't think people arereading the ads and that was the
one takeaway from myconversation with Nick today
that people are not reading theads.
Or maybe they're hiring AIdevices to screen filter,
whatever.
That process is not working foryou.
(02:43):
You're not going to get hired.
Okay, stop.
The next thing is just merelythe quantity of people throwing
their things to the wind.
That process doesn't workeither.
Okay, you're just, you know,sending a prayer to the wind and
hopefully someone reads it.
I'm a human being.
I'm reading all theapplications.
There's no AI bot between theresume coming in.
(03:06):
In this case, I was usingLinkedIn.
I was trying to use Indeed, butthat's a fail.
As an employer searching forIndeed, that tool did not work
for me.
So LinkedIn is a little bitbetter in terms of the.
You know there's a system there, but I'm a human being looking
(03:29):
at every single resume that'scoming in.
It's hitting my feed and myemail.
As soon as something comes in,I'm looking at it and I can
immediately screen it and I canselect, reject.
So, as a human being reading it,I'm still seeing people without
the right qualifications, andmy job ad was very specific.
I went to the great lengths toexplain what the job
(03:51):
requirements were, et cetera.
Years of experience I wanted,if you're admitted to various
jurisdictions like New York,connecticut, and people still
were applying for it, and maybebecause it had the word remote
in it because my attorneys in myoffice do work remotely and
also work in the office, butprimarily remote Remote works.
(04:14):
By the way, folks, it'sactually highly productive for
us.
Technology is king, so it works.
But I was screening thesemyself and no AI bot was doing
it and I was just troubled with,you know, the lack of insight
or the inability for thecandidates to.
(04:36):
You know, look me up what we doand you know what I was asking
for and I was just shocked thatthat's the level of engagement
that you know people are notengaging, they're not
investigating.
So, red flag, don't do that.
Don't throw the application tothe job ad you see in LinkedIn.
(04:56):
Do something different.
What should you do, mark?
Well, do this.
If you see a job ad, find outabout the firm.
Figure out first is that thefirm you want to work at?
Don't get, I don't know.
Maybe people get in the moneyeyes and they see the salary
range issue and they just wantto throw it at it, or they're
(05:18):
getting desperate becausethey're getting canned by the
administration in Washington.
They're just getting fearfuland need a job.
That's a red flag too.
But like somebody from DClooking for a job in Connecticut
.
You only do that because youlost a job and you wouldn't have
otherwise approached my officein a normal state of
(05:38):
circumstances because you wantto become an employment lawyer.
It's like red flag.
It's just.
People cannot see that.
So the right thing to do is yousee a job ad.
Some company's hiring CaryAssociates is hiring my law firm
.
Why don't you find spend thetime to research about that firm
?
If you're an attorney, you haveaccess to court system and
(05:59):
dockets.
You can actually spend a lot oftime to understand that
employer.
Why do you do that?
Well, because I want you to dothat.
I want you to figure out ifyou're a right fit for me and
I'm a right fit for you.
But so many people don't dothat.
This came up during aconversation with my friend Nick
today.
Not one person who applied.
There was like 80 resumes thatcame in over a short period of
(06:21):
time and not one of them tookthe gumption to call me or send
me an email unsolicited.
So I sent emails.
I was doing that veryproactively with them, but no
one solicited me directly.
You should be doing thatbecause they saw a job ad and
(06:44):
they were saying things aboutthe firm and what they saw in
the firm, what the firm wasdoing, and they actually took a
look at it.
I'd pay attention to thatattorney, that applicant,
because that showed that theyhad interest.
So stop this script that youthink you should follow, that
(07:04):
you can't contact the owners orthe managers of the employer.
Contact them.
I mean, that was actuallyNick's advice as well and I
agree, and years ago when I toldNick this story, that when I
started out and I just had noexperience this is now 28 years
ago I say a lot, I'm a lot.
Sorry, I apologize because I'mtrying to think through the
(07:25):
thoughts, but I actuallycontacted a lot of known
attorneys, had more years ofexperience before when I just
started, and they were receptiveand I wasn't asking for a job,
I was just simply asking hey,what is it like to be an
employment lawyer?
How did you go about it?
What are you doing?
And I knew who I was talking tobecause I can look them up.
Back then you had some semblanceof internet yeah, very basic
(07:49):
internet and I even asked, youknow, to come and talk to my
friend, bob Mitchell, who's anattorney in Connecticut.
He doesn't remember thismeeting, but I do because I sat
in his office and I asked himbecause I was young, you're
impressionable, you rememberthis, and I learned a lot from
him and through conversationswith similar folks who are
(08:09):
attorneys, who are alreadypracticing many years in advance
.
And I encourage you to do that.
Don't ask for well, don't tellthem you want a job, but you
just say you want to network anddo the old fashioned way.
That's the way it works thesedays.
It's through networking.
(08:30):
I heard stats that most peopleare getting jobs not through
LinkedIn, but they're gettingjobs through, you know, word of
mouth or networking and that'sand my friend, nick shared this
input with me because he was arecruiter and he's writing in
that field.
I was like shocked.
I thought the other way around,it was happening that people
were going through these massivedata banks like LinkedIn, but
that's not the case.
The other thing we talked aboutwas this.
(08:52):
It's called algorithmic biasand there was a case with Derek
Mobley versus I think it'sWorkspace or something, and,
excuse me, he applied for like100 jobs and was randomly denied
because of discrimination.
He eventually sued them.
It was a court case.
I think I did a podcast aboutit.
(09:15):
So the AI bot is obviouslyscreening from both angles from
the employee side and from theemployer side.
So there's no human there sideand from the employer side.
So there's no human there andthat's a problem because there's
implicit bias within thatalgorithm, I guess, and you
don't have to go through thatprocess.
You can bypass, you don't haveto accept that's the way you
(09:40):
have to do it.
There's another way Do your ownindividual research about an
employer.
Nick was sharing examples wherepeople basically targeted three
different companies they reallywanted to work for and they just
went out and talked to andcontacted the people at these
companies and guess what?
People were really happy tohear what they had to say and
(10:05):
gave them some airtime.
It takes some persistence, butdo your homework about who
you're targeting.
Find out what it is theyactually do.
Don't just throw a resume atthe situation and don't send a
cover letter, please.
It's really drives me insane.
Don't send a cover letter.
That is, it tacitly touchesupon what we do and doesn't
(10:28):
really answer the question aboutyou know, are you qualified for
the job?
That's in the application.
So people do that a lot and Ithink it's maybe out of fear or
whatever it is, if you want ajob at a certain location and
you really know what you want.
Target the employer and goafter it.
Don't be shy.
I would appreciate someone whohad the gumption and the guts to
(10:51):
reach out in a very articulatedway to have a discussion about
my firm, what I do, how I serveas clients, our business,
whatever it is, and then notabout you, and have just have a
regular discussion instead ofthis.
You know, I guess this scriptof you know, applicant and
employer that people follow itdoesn't work, and talking with
(11:15):
Nick today, actually it made meremember that you know that is
not the way things are done.
You have to really set yourselfapart.
I know you hear that a lot.
Set yourself apart, I know youhear that a lot, but I didn't
have that experience and I hadto basically hire myself.
That's not the common way ofdoing things, but I will tell
(11:37):
you, as an employment lawyer,I've learned over the years that
if people and I've hired manypeople, many people the more
genuine you are, the moretransparent you are about what
your goal, aspiration is.
Try to figure out and maybeI'll do it this way that I'm
looking for.
(11:59):
When I'm looking for a candidate, I'm looking for a fit.
You know, yeah, you got to havea law degree, yeah, you got to
have employment law experience,but you could be the worst
candidate possible with a badattitude.
I'm not going to hire you.
I'm looking for, and you needto figure out through
questioning and have discussion,like with people, what is the
fit that this employer wants ofthe particular person.
(12:19):
It's a personality.
It's possibly you have to learnand ask questions and probe the
employer.
You know, is it remote work?
Is it working in a silo?
Do you guys get together?
What's the culture?
Like you know, in my sharedexperience in interviews, I talk
about what is my culture.
A lot, I actually go to the nthdegree to talk about it.
(12:39):
We have you've heard me talkabout it we have employment
contracts for termination, forcause?
We have, you know, lengthyvacation times, because I want
people to take vacations awayand so they don't burn out.
We pay for the gym membershipand we, you know, use technology
as most I'm sure most companiesdo.
(13:00):
But we use technology to bridgethe gap between space and time,
to allow this person to workanywhere they want.
I mean, I work remotely from alot of different places,
effortlessly, and I'm connectedto my systems.
So learn about what theemployer is like.
Spend the time it could nailyou a job.
I'll give you a trick that Nickshared with me today.
(13:21):
Thanks, nick.
He said he had done this in hisown career, whereby he asked to
meet with people and he saidcan you recommend whomever else
I can talk to, et cetera.
And he did, and he went off andhe didn't get any of those jobs
.
And then the person he askedthe original person says why did
you ever ask us for a job?
(13:41):
And he then said, after he washired by that employer, he says
well, that was a trick all along.
I intentionally did that so,and it took him a year to do
that.
So you know, try differenttactics to get your foot in the
door, but have a discussion.
But anything you've learned fromthis episode is do not throw
(14:03):
your resume into the pipeline ofnonsense that you see, and you
can start there, but don't endthere.
Pick the phone up, diligent.
How about being persistent in arespectful way?
Contact me, find out what I'mdoing, find out what court cases
I'm working on, that I'm tryingto move and shake with Anything
(14:26):
to get a conversation going,because it's all public, it's
out there.
I mean my situation is veryeasy.
You can read about what I'mworking on, that I'm trying to
move and shake with anything toget a conversation going,
because it's all public, it'sout there.
I mean my situation is veryeasy.
You can read about what I'mdoing and to have it, you know,
invite me to have a conversation, but you got to have the
qualifications first.
Read the darn job ad and don'tjust, you know, throw your thing
into the to the job hopper onan ad post and think it's going
(14:48):
to stick.
It's not.
That's the wrong way to do it.
I was a human being, rejectingthings out of hand as soon as
they came in because they didnot have the basic requirements
of the job.
Read the job.
Don't rely upon some AI bot todo it for you.
Spend the time.
This is involving your income.
I'm shocked that people areactually doing this Like they
would literally risk theopportunity loss.
(15:12):
But a computer to screen themaway from a potential job,
because these computers get itwrong all the time.
And if you're doing that,that's a huge mistake.
But I think what our culturetoday is is geared towards that
and people don't know any betterbecause people don't tell them.
So that was my messaging today.
It was like let people knowthat's the wrong way to job
(15:33):
search.
Don't use the throw it to thewind or an AI bot or anything to
mechanically drive your jobsearch.
Do it the old fashioned way.
Where I'm a human being, I wantto be contacted, I want to know
Thank you.
Demonstrate that you have theskill set.
(15:58):
Demonstrate you have the driveand the ability to service the
clients in the way that theemployer is doing that.
But do not go about the jobsearch through your computer
like that and just expect anyresults.
I mean you could end up likeDerek Mobley, who did exactly
that and he got rejected.
(16:20):
That was the lawsuit.
He was being discriminatedagainst because he was an
African-American male, and soit's a great example.
I'm sorry that happened to him,but these devices, this
technology, it's fallible andyou need to be aware that
(16:40):
there's a different way of doingthis, and that way of doing it
is the old-fashioned way puttingyour name to a communication of
some form.
Be diligent about it,persistence with it.
It demonstrates that you wantto join the employer because
you're trying everything you can.
You're trying everything youcan.
So if that helps you in yourjob search and gets you out of
(17:03):
your wrong thinking red flagsall day long, thinking about
using AI or throwing resumes outthere because you're scared
shitless to.
You need a job because thefederal government just fired
you, whatever.
Just get out of that mindset.
Change your mindset.
Go back to if I was an employer.
How would I want somebody tocontact me about a job search,
(17:27):
even a networking that they wereinterested in?
And do those things with thatperson in terms of your job
search.
Get the attention of people.
We're all busy.
Yes, we get tons of email.
We're doing you know a thousandthings every single day and
we're exhausted at the end ofthe day.
But if you just take the time tocommunicate like a human being,
(17:49):
as a professional here, in thecase of an attorney, you're
going to get reception to itbecause people listen to that.
I mean I'm going to listen tosomebody who's going to say in a
very articulated way thatthey're interested in what I'm
doing.
I want to know that you'reinterested in what the mission
statement is.
So I'm repeating myself, butfor a reason it's just
(18:10):
incredibly disturbing to have toreject so many candidates
because they commit the samemistake each time they did it.
I mean we're talking I don'tknow 80 times.
I mean they're all doing thesame thing, they're all
committing the same mistake.
Not one of them reached out tome.
And then I can just add this,because I'm fresh off an
(18:33):
interview.
I'm just going to share thiswith you.
I don't do interviews like youthink that I do them, and I'm
not going to ask you silly,stupid questions about you.
Know what color is yourparachute or whatever the
nonsense that goes on in thereal world.
The right way to do aninterview is, in my opinion, if
I'm hiring because I want to paysomebody $200,000 a year, is I
(18:54):
want to have a conversation, I'mgoing to find out about you and
I'm going to do it over alonger period of time.
It's going to bug you, butthat's intentional.
I'm trying to have a slow hirebecause I'm going to get to know
you, all your quirks and allyour things, and you're going to
get to know me and you're goingto figure out whether it's a
fit for you, whether it fits forme.
That's intentional and that'sthe way I do interviews.
(19:16):
Now, is it perfect?
Well, it's definitely lessstressful for both sides.
I'm going to check out how manycases you're on the federal
court docket and how many timesyou've done it or this, that,
and try to figure out thebaseline and what I need to grow
in terms of your workexperience.
I can do all that.
On my side, I try to have aconversation with people so that
(19:40):
they're not so, they're at easeand we're talking in a
conversational manner.
It's designed to bring out likehow you are as a person.
You know what makes you tick,personal experiences you have.
But it's very fluid.
It's not based upon stupidquestions that you may get wrong
or any screening device thatyou've got to.
(20:00):
I can't believe people have todo this I think my kids had to
do this where you getinterviewed by a darn computer
and there's a company out thereselling this service for
millions and millions of dollarsto corporations nationwide and
I forget the name of thesoftware company.
But that's insane.
Like you can't even have acommunication about something so
(20:21):
vitally important to your joband you got to do it with a
computer first.
That's crazy making.
I do it old-fashioned way.
I get the person on a Zoom call, have a discussion.
I don't put a time limit on thecall and we just start to
brainstorm conversations aboutvarious issues.
Obviously, I'm working with aresume, but I'm also
(20:42):
communicating what's happeningin a very conversational style,
without pressure, because Idon't want you to be stressed in
my job interview with me,because I want to have you feel
more relaxed.
That's the way to go about thejob interview.
Some people may object, you know, but you're not going to learn
something from somebody who'sunder stress.
(21:03):
That never works and I don'twant to.
You know, put you through thepaces of that and I want to have
a more robust, colorfulconversation filled with humor,
filled with just naturalreactions, instead of you know
you working from a stress, youknow sense of your presence
(21:23):
there and you're under.
You know you need a job orsomething like that or whatever
that happens in a job interview.
So the job interview I do isdesigned to bring out the person
you really are, not the personthat's sitting there in front of
on paper.
That's kind of stale, black andwhite, you know print.
It's like there's a real personthere and I'm trying to bring
that out through conversationand people are really receptive
(21:45):
to that and I'll take my timebecause I want to make sure that
you're working with me for along time.
By the way, employment lawyersand most lawyers are most
employers cannot promise youlifetime employment.
They can't say you're gonna beworking here a long time.
Well, it's illegal to do thatbecause in the sense that
somebody will sue you for breachof contract if you ever hear
(22:07):
that.
So just a little tidbit.
But I'm looking for a longertrust building situation from
the get-go and that conversationis designed to do that.
My whole process is designed todo that.
I think most employers don't dothat because of the evidence of
how much they're using AI.
I mean, where's the trust inthat process?
I mean shit, there's no trustin that process.
(22:28):
So there's a way to deal withthis, folks, and it's not
through a computer.
Start with the computer to getyour data and your input, but
write letters.
You'd be surprised at howcreative you can get to get
somebody's attention.
We're all busy, I get it, butif you think hard enough, you
can send a FedEx to somebody andthey'll open it potentially.
(22:50):
Or just show up at their officeor something to get their
attention that you're seriouslyinterested in a job at the
employment place of work.
So I just wanted to call thatout.
That was on my mind.
Today I had a conversationabout this.
I wanted to share it.
(23:11):
I don't normally talk about jobinterview stuff or recruiting
stuff.
Maybe I think I should in termsof because I do see a lot of
this material or this in thework that I do.
We don't generally have, youknow, cases where people sue
people for, you know, failure tohire.
(23:31):
It's kind of a hard case toprove and I have been thinking
about this aspect of you knowthe other side of you know, the
category of employment is really, you know, job search and
career coaching.
I mean, I am kind of doing thatthrough the podcasts and the
episodes we're doing.
I'll lean in a little bit morefor you from what I see.
(23:54):
I'm not perfect.
I think there's a variety ofways, you know, to career coach
and there's, I'm sure, a lot ofcoaches out there quote unquote
coaches.
But I just basically give youwhat I see in terms of the cases
we're litigating, the caseswe're dealing with employers and
they do have a kind of asystematic pattern to them and
(24:19):
you can kind of know it and yousee it and you hear this pattern
through my discussions with you.
Likewise, I'm giving you alittle pattern today because I'm
job searching or at leasttrying to fill a position, and a
little feedback for you.
And also I listened to a lot ofwhat other people say in terms
of my friend.
Nick's a recruiter for a longtime.
(24:39):
He's asked that headhunter.
He's a famous guy, so I enjoyspeaking with him and I learn a
lot.
So I'm just giving a littlefeedback back to you.
Red flags don't do certainthings.
Do do certain things aboutgetting to know your employer on
a personal level.
We appreciate if you can reachout to us and take the extra
effort.
I mean, I'm not kidding.
It would send a loud messagethat you're interested in that
(25:03):
job.
So I'll leave it at that.
Hope you enjoyed this episodeand my thoughts about this.
This really did bug the shitout of me and I wanted to share
it with you.
Sorry for the language today,but it does really bug me
because people just do notlisten or read what they're
applying for.
So please stop doing that anddo it the way I suggested.
Okay, thanks, have a great week.
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