September 15, 2025 • 47 mins
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The art of negotiation is a critical skill that can significantly impact your career trajectory and compensation, requiring research, preparation, and understanding the psychology of the negotiation process. Mark shares insights on how to approach negotiation as a strategic process rather than a confrontational event, emphasizing the importance of knowing your value and understanding your employer's perspective.
• Negotiation is a process over time, not an all-at-once effort
• Effective negotiation requires removing anxiety and taking a methodical approach
• Understanding the psychology of your opponent is crucial to successful outcomes
• For new job offers, research total compensation including "hidden" elements
• Document accomplishments throughout the year to build your case for a raise
• Base negotiations on business logic rather than personal needs
• Being in the engaged 30% of employees strengthens your negotiating position
• Non-monetary benefits like work-life balance can be valuable negotiation wins
• Develop your own authentic negotiation style that aligns with your personality
• Practice and experience will improve your negotiation skills over time
The Employee Survival Guide is expanding to include more proactive career development content beyond just legal information, helping you become more successful in all aspects of your work life.
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For more information, please contact our employment attorneys at Carey & Associates, P.C. at 203-255-4150, www.capclaw.com.
Disclaimer: For educational use only, not intended to be legal advice.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, it's Mark and welcome back to the Employee
Survival Guide where we say allthings your employer does not
want you to know about, and alot more.
Today's topic is the art ofnegotiation how to get what
you're worth.
Very worthwhile topic, no punintended.
But before I start, the topicis really an example of my
(00:23):
moving in a direction to expandupon the content you're getting
in this podcast.
We currently talk about topicsof whatever is happening at work
, performance reviews orwhatever you know.
The list is endless and usuallyit's generally reactive to
(00:58):
what's happening and try to giveyou skill sets that we also
have podcasts about actual caseexamples where you get to listen
to a storyline narrative aboutwhat the case is about or what
happened.
And now I want to start to addcontent to the website, to the
podcast episodes, like, forexample, today we're going to do
the art of negotiating.
And other topics will be morelike proactive in terms of your
careers and because I've seen alot of things about employees
(01:28):
and executives throughout mytime doing this, whereby know
lent me, allowed me into theirwork lives and I've gotten to
see a variety of styles ofworking.
You know again, it's you knowfrom the vantage point of the
attorney-client relationshipwith the employee or executive,
but nonetheless, you pick up alot of detail about the
relationships with theirmanagers, with their peers, and
(01:50):
so I wanted to give you a lotmore in terms of the content to
allow you to develop more skillsthan just beyond the legal,
reactive aspect of what's asexually hostile work
environment.
So we're expanding the scope ofwhat the Employee Survival
Guide is about.
So, with that said, negotiatingI negotiate all the time.
(02:13):
I negotiate whether I'm incourt or out of court.
I negotiate with judges.
I negotiate nonstop as anattorney, as a litigator, and
you learn a lot about the waysthat your opponents negotiate as
well, and you learn what'seffective, what's not effective.
And this podcast episode isabout negotiating, and I wanted
(02:33):
to just start off with the basicpremises about negotiating so
you understand from my vantagepoint.
I think they apply for justwork issues, but you know real
life circumstances.
But negotiating is about aprocess over a period of time,
not an all at once effort.
(02:54):
Don't expect things to happenjust because you ask, don't lay
down demands and threats, etcetera.
But in a podcast episode we'regoing to talk about specifically
the new job offer, ornegotiating a raise and
negotiating other terms of yourjob.
But I want to make sure youunderstand the basic premise
behind negotiating.
You may feel you're a goodnegotiator or not, but I've
(03:18):
tested myself in every singlenegotiation, typically to
mediation or settlementdiscussion.
It's high stakes, a lot ofmoney, a lot of emotion involved
.
I'm dealing with clients whoare aggravated by their
employers, what they've done tothem.
So that's in that context.
Typically it can be in courtnegotiations with a magistrate,
(03:40):
judge, or it can be privatelybetween lawyers or using a
mediator to do so with theparties.
And so I've done a lot ofmediation, a lot of successful
mediation, and what I'vediscovered is that the process
of negotiation you should allowyourself time.
So take out the anxiety ofnegotiating.
(04:03):
That's the first, I guesshurdle most people have is I
don't know how to negotiate, Icouldn't negotiate on behalf of
myself, et cetera.
So avoid that anxiety aspect,but look at more of it as it's a
process.
You want to get into theresearch of what the issues are
and what motivates the otherside.
A starting point is a famousbook years and years ago.
(04:25):
It's called Getting to.
Yes, it's a famous book nowdated in years, but it touts the
ideology of two sides can winduring a negotiation.
Well, I get some contradictorytype of messaging in my line of
work because, for example,judges will tell my clients
(04:48):
you're not going to like theresult of the mediation
settlement, but you'll learn tolive with it.
I don't necessarily agree withthat and still, you know, just
label that as a success, a win.
Even though you're resolving acase in the legal context and
(05:11):
you're getting paid a settlementfee, money and you're not going
to a verdict in front of acourt or a jury, it is still a
win because you're preventingthe outlay of money and time and
duration to an emotion for aprotracted circumstance, a legal
battle.
So defining success is reallyimportant in the process of
(05:35):
negotiating.
So a longer timeframe days,weeks, potentially scaffold out
your approach to negotiating.
Think about the intro, themiddle part, the conclusion part
.
Look at your opponent.
Who are you negotiating with?
What's their style?
Are they just simply a lot ofpeople like to say no because
(05:57):
it's easy to say no as aresponse to negotiating.
I don't generally listen to nobecause people tell me no all
the time, but that's not howcases are resolved.
And look for the process ofscaffolding your offers and
counteroffers as you movethrough the process, as you
learn more information about theother side.
(06:18):
So, in the context of worknegotiating, you want to learn
about what's good for theemployer, and I'll get into that
in a second.
But just look at the process.
It's going to take time.
Don't expect dramatic responses.
Yes, we'll give you what youwant.
That never happens and thenunderstand your opponent and
(06:38):
understand the style being used.
Understand the psychology I mean, this whole podcast is really
about psychology, because that'swhat negotiating is.
I'm teaching you to change yourpsychology to one where you're
more open-minded and mindful ofyour approach and removing your
(06:59):
anxiety about it and putting thetime and energy into your
negotiation to understand whatis the goal, how am I going to
get there, what am I willing togive up, what's reasonable?
And so go through the mechanicsof goal assessment and setting
out and just take it more slowly.
(07:21):
And it's the same process I usewith legal cases and by example
.
I'll give you this that I'll bein mediation and I'll prep a
client about what the process ofmediation is like with a
mediator and what the process ofnegotiation is like, and I'll
tell the client it says it maynot resolve today and of course
(07:42):
clients are like it's got toresolve today, by God it's got
to resolve, because they'repanicked and freaked out,
they're spending money theydon't have typically.
So it's a high-stressenvironment.
But I tell them that becauseoftentimes negotiating the first
day of negotiation it's notyour last day, it's just your
first day.
And so plan on multiple days ofnegotiating and it happens and I
(08:07):
say this and it's happened inquite a few high-profile cases.
These are cases that never hitthe newsday desk, they never hit
public knowledge, they're justhigh-profile cases.
But they resolved.
But they took several days ofworking with a judge to help the
parties resolve matter.
(08:28):
And because it was, you know,maybe sensitive people were
adjusting their positions, maybethey were just initially
fishing to figure out you know,let's just give them a no answer
and how they react to it.
And so a lot of things playinto how people negotiate from
the employer's employeestandpoint.
So multiple days is very, verycommon in complex situations and
(08:53):
you may have complex situationsat work.
So let's get into the worknegotiating.
I promised you the new joboffer, the negotiating arrays
and the negotiating other termsof your employment Again all
part of giving you more contentand skill sets to understand
real-life circumstances beyondjust the you know.
Here's the podcast aboutso-and-so case, or here's a
(09:17):
topic of a legal nature, gettinginto the nuances of.
You know your work life becauseit does matter to you and you
spend a lot of time there.
So, in short, when you thinkabout negotiating, you think you
know you basically have some.
Your palms start sweating andyou know you get really tense.
(09:40):
Whether you're a new hire, aseasoned pro looking for a raise
or about to walk into a new job, the ability to negotiate is
one of your most powerful toolsand it's a tool most employers
hope you don't know how to use.
You know me, I'm like I'm goingto give you everything your
employer does not want you toknow about, and a lot more.
You can't really learn aboutnegotiating at work Well,
(10:00):
because they don't teach itthere.
I mean duh.
So you're going to learn ithere and I'm going to spend a
lot of time not just one episode, but several episodes over a
period of time at differentaspects of negotiating.
So you know you pick up skillsets about different aspects of
negotiating.
So you know you pick up skillsets and you should know these
(10:20):
things because it's how you, youknow, rise up the ladder of
income, rise up the ladder inthe office space, it's through
negotiating.
I mean, I can honestly say thatI built my career negotiating.
All right, I do my job.
Of course I have my skill setof my job, but I negotiate in
various forms.
So let's be clear Negotiationis not a fight.
(10:44):
It's not about being aggressiveor making demands.
That's a rookie mistake.
Information-gathering process.
It's about finding out what theother side wants, what their
limitations are and how you canposition yourself to get what
you want, all while leaving themfeeling like they got a good
deal.
(11:04):
That's the getting the yesformat.
It's hard, but if you look andwork at it, you can get your
opponent or your employer, yourboss, to the yes point, to say
yes to whatever your demand is.
So again, three scenariosyou're going to look at job
(11:25):
offer, negotiating your raise,negotiating other terms of your
job.
So you've just gotten the calland they say we'd like to offer
you the position andcongratulations.
Now this is and this is not thetime to say yes right away.
Of course you want to pause.
You want to say and I tellclients to do this, I'll take it
(11:46):
under advisement, I'll get backto you because you want to
think about it.
Maybe you're an executive andyou're having a term sheet
announcement discussion withyour employer over the phone and
you want to go talk to me, youremployment attorney, to talk
about what the contract is goingto be, because it's several
million dollars and there's alot at stake and so you need to
kind of go through it veryslowly.
You say, basically thank youvery much, take it under
(12:09):
advisement, I'm excited aboutthe opportunity.
You want to get back to them.
So you need this time to gatherinformation about your opponent
here it's a new job and learn asmuch as you can about the
employer.
You've already done that at thepoint where you interviewed, et
cetera, and now you understandthe full picture, not just the
base salary, but you're lookingat base salary, total
(12:32):
compensation, benefits, thehidden stuff.
So base salary is the marketrate for the position you know,
realistic, you know what they'reoffering.
What about the location?
Is the base pay in Texas thesame as the base pay in, like,
new York City?
And you should have alreadyresearched this information.
(12:53):
And here's the problem with youknow there are two forms of
information.
There's well, maybe three.
I'll start with the third.
The third one being the youknow, anecdotal, like you know
your colleagues and friendstalking about what salary is.
Second is salarycom, which it'sa website out there I think
they're still out there.
I think they're still out there.
And then there's professionaldatabases.
(13:17):
You can pay to acquireinformation.
This is typically for themanagement, executive level.
I think the company is calledEquilarcom and in there they
basically give you kind of anapples-to-apples approach to
similar positions in the sameindustry, et cetera, to where
you can look it up.
It doesn't go below the C-suitelevel.
(13:39):
I do not believe.
But then there's maybe a fourthcategory information gathering.
You can have a headhunter andthey have information provided
because they maintain databases.
Total compensation that's thenext topic.
You know it's bonuses, equitystock options.
Do they have a profit-sharingprogram?
You want to get into what theyhave If it's a public company.
(14:10):
Now you can go into the SECgovand research the company you're
looking at to find out allthings there and typically go to
the annual report 10-K and lookat the exhibit list.
And you'll report 10K and lookat the exhibit list and then in
that list you'll see the variousequity incentive compensation
plans the company is willing tooffer if you're an executive, if
it's 401K, it's just they'regoing to give you a
participation in 401K.
There's no more defined benefitpensions any longer.
So that's over.
Typically, most people areoffered 401K if they're lucky.
(14:36):
Next item on the agenda for your.
What you're trying to reviewhere is, you know, the benefits,
health insurance, 401k, matchpaid time off and other perks.
These have real dollar values.
So, for example, you know, isthe company providing four weeks
paid vacation?
How many of those nationalholidays are you going to get
off?
Like 10 or 15 days in additionto your vacation?
(14:58):
Pay Benefits are reallyimportant.
Health insurance, of course,important.
I can't understate that one.
But the aspect of benefits isreally where the company is
setting the cultural tone of theorganization.
You need to find out what thatis.
If it's two weeks vacation,that's very limited.
(15:19):
They're going to work you tothe bone.
So the more benefits they'reproviding to the employees, the
better, and that defines theculture.
You have to look past thewebsite and kind of the
marketing shtick that they puton the website about their
culture.
Maybe ask around, Do someresearch about benefits and then
the hidden stuff.
(15:40):
The hidden stuff of the joboffer is is there a sign-on
bonus.
Maybe you're leaving behindmoney due to whatever
circumstance.
Equity or a bonus hasn't comedue yet.
You can forward that to youremployer the new employer and
saying you want to sign a bonusso you can recoup that and not
(16:03):
take a loss there.
And so maybe there's anothertopic of relocation assistance
or a non-compete clause thatcould restrict you later.
You want to know about that inadvance.
Non-competes are still aroundand still a sticky matter for
people to understand.
The FTC rule came out, but it'sin limbo right now through
(16:24):
court of appeals process.
It's not a rule.
So that issues and given thecurrent political climate and
the pro-business mindset of thefederal government right now, I
don't think that the non-competeissue is going to come up soon.
If the federal courts I thinkthe Fifth Circuit down in Texas
is handling this at theappellate level Maybe that rises
(16:48):
to the level of the SupremeCourt, who knows?
But we don't know the outcomeof that just yet.
So non-competes can be an issueof the hidden stuff.
So now you've done your homework, you researched the company in
the market, you now know whatyou're worth and you prepare a
concise, well-reasonedcounteroffer to the initial job
(17:09):
offer they made you and don'tthrow out a number without a
reason.
Think about it in advance, tieyour request to your value
Something like based on myresearch in the market for this
role and my unique skill set andmention the specific skills
that you have.
I was looking for a base salaryof so-and-so closer to X
(17:29):
dollars, and that's an offer ora counteroffer you're making.
You're not demanding, you'rejust simply stating your value
based on the data and you makean encounter offer.
The employer may say no, theymay meet you in the middle or
they may surprise you with abetter offer, but you'll never
know if you don't ask.
It's a really, and everybodykind of knows the circumstance.
(17:51):
If you don't ask, you don'treceive.
So you got to ask and you know.
Take the time to go throughthis process.
If you need to stall out theprocess to potentially aggravate
your employer, the potentialemployer a little bit, because
you know your worth and maybeyou have multiple offers and you
(18:12):
know people are probablythinking about well, what if I
have two offers?
You need to play that outbecause if you tell an employer
that you have another offerpending and they're lowballing
that offer, you need to makethem feel insecure.
Again, it's psychology,psychology that both parties
play in.
Now the employer thinks thismistaken belief that just
(18:35):
because they're the employer,they get to dictate terms.
That's not true.
Great example today is theissue of this trajectory of
companies trying to capture thebest AI professionals they can.
They're just beating themselvesup competitors trying to throw
as much money as possible to getthe best AI developers they can
(18:58):
, and so that's an example wherethe companies are not in
control.
They're having to bargain withtheir competitors to get this
new prized employee to come overto do AI research.
So it's an example.
So most employers do this dumbmistake and I'm going to say
(19:19):
it's a dumb mistake.
They always try to start withthis.
Employers are always right andthey're going to get what they
want approach.
That's not true.
If you let them have that andyou've given any indication
during your discussions withthem that there's a weakness in
you in your discussions aboutgiving an employer too much
(19:40):
power, they're going tomanipulate that.
They're going to see it,they're going to feel it.
So go into the negotiationstrong, confident, not cocky,
but just.
You know what your value is.
It doesn't matter what the jobis, you just know what your
value is.
You could be the best human,compassionate person possible to
the greatest AI developer, itdoesn't matter.
Just know what your value isand make it clear to the other
(20:03):
side what your value is, anddon't do it in a cheesy way,
please.
Just take a good stock aboutwho you are.
You should know who you are.
If you don't know who you are,then work on that.
It's a separate episode.
So just know who you are.
If you don't know who you are,then work on that.
It's a separate episode.
So just know who you are andwhat your value is, and take it
slow and take it methodicallyMaybe it's several conversations
(20:25):
to get to the point where youneed Throwing out offers that
start at some point as acounteroffer in response to the
employer's offer and then workyour way down slowly and then
figure out what your bottom lineis.
Maybe your bottom line is theother counteroffer.
Maybe your bottom line iseconomic because of your own
financial wherewith position,where you need X dollars of
(20:46):
income to satisfy your currenteconomic status.
So figure out a bottom line,figure out why you want that
bottom line and negotiate slowlydown towards that.
If the employer gets a littlelike you know, I don't know just
upset with your process, youknow, start to make them
understand that you know you are, you know you have value.
(21:09):
You can improve the company'scurrent position position, if I
can say this to you, if you canthink like the owner of that
company or the management ofthat company that you're trying
to go into, think like them interms of what they're selling,
what they're doing, what service, et cetera, that will enable
you to connect with them andfigure out what their current
(21:29):
problems are.
You're not just filling a seat.
I always try to ask people tothink about, you know, as an
entrepreneurial type of thinking, really just a matter of you
know, thinking out of the boxapproach when approaching a new
job offer, about the newemployer, what they're facing
because they're hiring youbecause the last person that
(21:50):
you're replacing probably didn'tdo the job very well, so
they're looking for somebody tocome in and do some change and
to do it in a more creative way.
That's why there's a new hireand figure out are you replacing
somebody or is this a new,developed position?
Is it a new position with partsdriven from different positions
(22:12):
that they had maybe downsizedor reorganized?
You need to figure out all themechanics of what came about the
new position you're beingoffered.
Think out what happened, ask alot of hard questions, listen to
the responses about whatthey're saying to you.
You'll learn a lot in terms ofwhat has taken place at that
(22:34):
point in time to see is that theright fit job for you?
It may not be, if you hear theword.
I was just, by example, readinga story in the Wall Street
Journal this morning.
Some folks went to a company itwas a new stock market that was
trying to get approval by theSEC, the Securities Exchange
(22:57):
Commission but the article smackon the front page of the Wall
Street Journal is the employeesstarted getting indoctrinated
into Scientology and they didn'tknow that and they started
taking trainings and the like.
It was a very long, you know.
So ask questions and figure outif they're right fit for you in
the particular job you'relooking at by asking hard
(23:18):
questions and listening to theirreaction.
So listening is really one ofthe important parts of
negotiating.
Listen to the tone, howsomebody says something, when
you pop a statement out that'spretty demonstrative or powerful
, influential, whatever that'sgoing to be.
Listen to the reaction and itcan tell a lot.
(23:41):
And I do that all the timeBecause sometimes with good
people or people who are reallygood at negotiating judges and
lawyers you really have to justdiscern how it's being said, the
pause, the hesitation andreaction.
You can pick up patterns of howpeople are processing what's
(24:03):
happening in real time.
So negotiating requireslistening skills to discern
what's taking place at a momentby moment so you can, you know,
swift and dodge and maneuver toget what you need.
But it doesn't.
It's not a reactionary thing,you just want to listen for it,
take notes and reflect upon itand then come up with your next
(24:26):
move.
So to speak.
It's kind of like a chess gameto figure out what's not being
said, that's happening still inthe room even though it's not
being said, or there's a howit's being reacted to, or the
comment you're making, by howtheir body movements or their
voice and tone.
So that's a little bit furtherexpanded version of the
(24:51):
negotiating the job offer.
So next one is negotiating araise.
Okay, so you already have thejob and you've been a rock star,
of course, because everybodythinks they're a rock star, they
don't have any.
You know negative sides or redflags to them and you feel you
deserve more money now.
This is a very differentnegotiation than a new job offer
, because you have a historywith this employer and history
(25:14):
is your leverage, okay, so firstthing is it's not a one-time
conversation when you're askingfor a raise, and you should be
documenting your accomplishmentsthroughout the year, of course
in real time.
An email to your manager, notnecessarily, hey, I'm going to
get the raise in a few months,you know, but I'm going to send
(25:35):
you this email.
Just think strategicallythrough this process Take your
win, Applaud others who are alsoresponsible for that win, at
the same time gloating about thewin.
But essentially, later onyou'll be able to use those
(25:57):
emails and, you know, argue withyour employer for a raise.
So you know you want to keepthese emails in a folder
somewhere and every time youexceed the expectations, you
know save the email and theaccomplishment.
And or if you get the positivefeedback from a client, or
(26:18):
you've learned a new skill, ormaybe you graduated and got your
MBA, you write it all down andthis is your brag sheet.
So you schedule a meeting withyour boss and you frame it as a
conversation about your careerand your future with the company
and don't just show up and sayI want more money.
That's a guaranteed way not toget it and you'll receive a no.
(26:40):
Instead, the conversationshould be recapping your value
to the company, quote unquote inthe past year I've been
responsible for a list ofaccomplishments and you know.
You recognized me at certaindates and you said the following
to me about theseaccomplishments.
So they make your case for whyyour value has increased.
Based on these contributions tomy expanded role and
(27:03):
responsibilities to the company,I believe my salary should
increase by X dollars and be afair reflection of the current
market value for my currenttalents.
You get the gist.
So your argument is not based onyour personal needs, it's based
upon the business logic.
So here I'll take, for example,when people negotiate severance
(27:24):
without any claim, I say giveme 10 things that you did
recently that the employer knowsand they can agree that you did
those things well, and that'sthe reason why you want to be
compensated in negotiationbeyond what they offered you,
because without a claim youreally can't negotiate a
(27:45):
severance increase than otherthan what the employer offered
you.
So that's a goodwillnegotiation, the job raise
negotiations similar to that.
Obviously, the difference isyou're still working and so in
this circumstance you want tocome up with your list of
accomplishments.
They just need it.
(28:06):
Or maybe they're economicallypinched and they need it.
(28:26):
It's really about, I believe,looking holistically at the
employer from the employeestandpoint about about how
they've benefited the company inlarge measure.
That's real, that the companyhas, you know, receives a large,
you know, benefit of their work.
But I'm trying to get at is youknow, you're a long-timer in
(28:49):
the employer, you plan to spenda long time with this employee
that you, you know, eat, drinkand crap.
You know the employer's cultureand you're not faking it.
There are people there I thinkthat's probably currently less
than 30% who are so quoteunquote called fully engaged and
(29:13):
maybe you know those people I'mthinking about that they live
and breathe the company, but 70%of you, by the way, are
disengaged, and you know who youare.
It's basically people who arejust taking a paycheck or
hugging the job, so to speak,these days.
They're not quitting andrunning to another job.
But so that's a uniqueenvironment to be in today to
(29:38):
ask for a raise.
When you ask for a raise,employers are going to probably
say no.
So you have to do your homeworkto convince them to say yes and
what is the benefit they'regoing to gain from it and you're
working with the stack cards isagainst you here, because
companies are reorganizing andshoving more job duties on each
(30:01):
employee already present.
So you're getting, basically,more job duties, same pay.
And, if you didn't know this,that's a way of saving money for
the company, because they canmake you do it, because you
don't have any leverage or atleast they think you don't and
it's happening currently, in2025.
It may shift and move in lessor so, but companies are
(30:22):
currently doing this to savemoney.
They're also laying people offtoo, so asking for a raise is
like you're battling uphill.
It doesn't mean you can't askfor it.
You should.
The other aspect of asking for araise is that you believe, and
you're communicating to theemployer, that you deserve it
and it's beneficial to thecompany, and you're making it
(30:44):
with a straight face.
You're not bullshitting theissue.
It's real and you operate withthe facts, that the company
knows the same set of facts andthat you've got to convince the
employer that, well, if youdon't incentivize me with a
raise like a bonus, but a raiseis similar.
It's long-lasting, it's largerover time than a bonus that you
(31:09):
may, you know, want to jump ship.
It's doable, you can make that.
You know employer believe thatthey can become insecure, that
you may want to jump, you maywant to throw in, you know, in a
raise or promotional change,whatever Raise and promotions
are kind of a similar thing.
But making the employer feelinsecure about their position,
(31:33):
that you may ditch them.
You're right in the middle of ahuge project, whatever it is,
and it's okay to do that becauseyou know it's negotiation.
Negotiation is not just one ruleof thumb, it's an approach
taken with a lot of informationthat you've gathered to
understand the employer'sstrengths and weaknesses.
(31:54):
You want to focus on theweakness part of it.
Obviously you're touting thestrengths.
You have to benefit theemployer.
But you know targeting theirinsecurities and I do this as a
living I target the insecuritiesof companies all the time when
I throw claims at them, forexample, of whatever
discrimination or something.
That's a whistleblowing.
That's happened.
You know they don't want thatknown by the public.
(32:15):
So it's an insecurity.
So that's the reason why theynegotiate, because they don't
want that publicly known.
So it's an example.
Lawsuits, or at leastthreatened lawsuits, threat or
target and shame employersbefore they're filed as a means
to target their insecurities.
Employers have them.
You just don't know thatbecause you're not in my line of
(32:36):
work, where I see it all thetime.
You can see that insecurity inthe form of the cases we put up
on the podcast.
You know employers are gettingwhacked for millions and
millions of dollars because youknow they have insecurities.
They did something wrong andyou know if they want to play
that hard game they can lose andyou know they can get verdicts
against them and that's what thepurpose of those cases are
(32:58):
about to showcase that.
So employers are not, you know.
Long answer to all this aboutnegotiating a raise.
Employers do have weaknesses.
You need to exploit them.
Find out what they are they canbe large and small and exploit
them.
But don't do it in a way to,you know, shame them or anything
.
Obviously a professional, youwant to.
You know you can sometimesintimate things.
(33:19):
You know, shame them oranything.
Obviously a professional youwant to.
You want to.
You know you can sometimesintimate things.
You know without saying thingsdirectly.
You can say things you knowunder your you know by implicit
nature of what you're saying.
But do your homework about anemployer.
Don't just go in there and sayI want a raise.
That's utterly crazy and youwant to, I think the best.
(33:39):
I would give a raise tosomebody who really took the
time to understand what I wasdoing as an employer and went
into detail about it and evencame up with ideas that I didn't
even think of.
That shows to me that theemployee is, you know, believing
in the core mission that we'resetting out to do, above and
(34:00):
beyond just, you know,collecting a paycheck,
collecting paycheck.
People can be easily spotted bythe way and you don't want to be
one of them.
You want to be the person who'smaking a paycheck, or at least
making your employer feel thatthey, that you know you're a
very valuable resource to thecompany.
And employers know the twodifferent types of people.
(34:22):
There's people who takepaychecks and sit on their jobs
and they job hug because they'reengaged, but they're not fully
engaged.
We have a really harsh currentcircumstance today in this
workforce of 70 percent of theemployee population are
disengaged.
70% of the employee populationare disengaged.
If you don't understand whatthat means, it means that people
(34:43):
are just going to work, waitingfor Friday and collecting a
paycheck.
I mean, that's not a greatposition to be in on a
nationwide basis.
But you don't want to be inthat crowd.
If you want to fake it and makeit look like you're in the other
crowd of 30% who are engaged,those are the go-getters.
Those are the people who arethinking out of the box.
They're not backstabbing atwork, they are playing the game
(35:07):
critically.
They are measured steps andnegotiating a raise is a
measured step.
So you want to be in thatcategory.
So it's kind of a nod out tothis issue.
If you think you're disengagedat work, change your mindset
about this into the engaged part, even if you have to fake it.
But be realistic about yourfaking it.
Maybe you'll fake it to thepoint where you actually do
(35:30):
enjoy your job again.
But maybe you're disengaged fora lot of other reasons.
But understand why you'redisengaged.
It's really an unhealthyposition to be in, why you're
disengaged.
It's really an unhealthyposition to be in and the
current thinkers of the worlddon't really understand the why
part.
They just tell you thestatistic, gallup in particular.
So negotiating your A's there'sa lot goes into it, just like
(35:53):
the job offer Negotiation as youcan hear it.
It's got a lot of nuance to it.
It's a lot of style.
What is your style.
For example, ask yourself thatMine is kind of a blunt force,
trauma approach to it, typicallyworst case scenario, and I kind
of throw it all at the employer.
Factually I don't engage intiptoe approach.
(36:16):
I just say here is everythingyou need to understand what is
going on in this particular case.
Or if you're negotiating araise, everything that's going
on here as I see it, mr Employerand it can be the good, the bad
and the ugly and it shows acomprehensive approach to it.
So approach negotiation likethat Style is my other part of
(36:39):
my style in negotiating I reallydidn't talk about this so far
is a consistency approach.
I'm going to start with atelegraphed assortment of things
that I'm going to do.
Or, if you know me well enough,you can just ask colleagues on
the opposing side and find outhere's what Kerry does, and
that's fine because it might bedeliberate on my part to let
(37:01):
people know that that's what Ido, because I may have a game
strategy that's different thanthat.
Let's say I come to the tablewith all guns a-blazing at the
negotiating table and then I doan about-face and I do something
proactively positive that has alot of compassion for the
employer, kind of a mind screwfor the employer.
(37:22):
So think about the psychologyand the style that you're using
for negotiating.
You're going to have to figureout what your own style is.
Typically, it'scharacteristically driven by
your own personality.
But give it a thought, itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't matter and awell-orchestrated negotiating
strategy and style can look like.
(37:46):
Just think of a person who'sslow in their response to the
things that are arising duringthis discussion.
They're thought through,they're digested.
Not necessarily the personwho's very reactive.
I know a lot of attorneys thatwant to just scream and shout at
me.
They're not very effective,they just whine like little
children.
So you have to figure out yourstyle and I'm always looking to
(38:11):
assess that who's my opponent,what's their like?
I look them up before I go meetthem.
I look up judges before I gotalk to them.
Anything I can get to figureout who my opponent is.
It's going to adjust the styleof the cap I'm going to wear for
the day because I'm going tochange character.
I can be a lot of characters.
So it's a little bit of actingin this approach when you're
(38:33):
negotiating and so, as you cansee, there's a lot to
negotiating.
There's a lot of nuance to it.
So it's just simply not askingfor a raise, it's so much more.
Now the next thing isnegotiating things about your
job that don't involve money.
It's about anything andeverything related to your job.
(38:57):
So it can go like this thework-life balance, the
professional development, a newtitle, how about a start date?
And so work-life balance.
Well, hell, we just wentthrough that entire discussion
in the last three, four yearsand now we're at the back end of
that discussion of work-lifebalance because most of you are
(39:17):
being ordered back to work.
In my office we never did that.
We were remote work from beforethe pandemic happened and
people are fine.
And, by the way, you can besuccessful as a business and
have people work remotely.
It does work.
The only reason people are putback to work is because of rents
.
Employers have to pay rents.
(39:38):
Put back to work is because ofrents employers have to pay
rents.
So the work-life balance is animportant aspect for a lot of
people.
If you have a medical issue, ifyou have childcare needs, et
cetera, that's going to be anissue you need to.
It's a non-monetary thing.
You need to negotiate that andlet's just target this a little
bit.
Are there other people in theorganization who currently work
(39:59):
there that have remote work.
Why do they have it If theemployer has a blanket approach
to it?
I'm sorry but there's the onlyway to get around that blanket
approach of all go back to work,et cetera is if you have a
disability of some form and youhave to document that and make
(40:25):
an argument why you need aremote work schedule to
accommodate your disability,whatever that may be physical,
mental, mental, nervous.
So work-life balance also is ifthe employer doesn't have a
blanket approach to basicallyall people work at the office
and they don't allow for remotework, you have to then dig down
into do I present a value to theorganization that I can
negotiate a one-off because I'mspecial, meaning you are special
(40:46):
, we know you're special, butI'm being funny.
But is there anything uniqueabout you that the employer
wants to bend over a little bitbackwards for you, even though
others will see it, to allow youto work remotely?
So there is that circumstanceand you want to play politics to
get that.
(41:11):
The professional developmentaspect the company pay for
certifications, conferences,advanced degrees.
You know that type ofprofessional development
benefits the employer you know.
For example, I asked, I justtold employees, you know, read
the newspapers, because I wantthem to read and learn or just
hear about current topics, and Isaid I'll pay for your
subscription.
(41:31):
The other thing is, you know Ipay for, you know, a gym
membership because they need toget out of the computer work
seat and go just exercise,because it's very important,
because we spend our time in ourseats At least I don't.
I don't do that.
I definitely get out there andexercise.
But professional development isa feature, but it's not
monetary related and it benefitsboth you and the employer, of
(41:52):
course.
So you can negotiate that.
A new title, you know it'ssimilar to the raise and it's
non-monetary.
This one I don't really see somuch as it's more of a
reputational thing If you needit.
I see employers do this andthis is why I'm so negative on
it.
They always they award newtitles as something of value to
(42:18):
you, but real reality, you'restill doing the same job.
Or maybe they gave you moreresponsibility but they didn't
give you more pay.
So screw you the new title, Idon't care.
Uh, or they, they get fuzzywith you know changing, uh, you
know, from director levels tosome of their, or senior VP to
some change, but in reality it'sstill the same job and who
(42:39):
knows why they do it.
It's kind of weird, but blameHR.
I guess you can negotiate thestart date of when you want to
start.
So that's actually an issuethat comes up a lot of times
with when you're leaving a joband you're negotiating a
severance.
Negotiating a severance, I tellclients that you want to try to
(43:02):
orchestrate the severanceexecution of the agreement and
give a little time a week or twofor maybe a vacation.
You need a little break tostart the new job.
A lot of times the new employeris going to want to rush you
right in because they don't givea shit.
They just want to have youstart and they want to just, you
know, check that box and saythat we're done with that
project, we got a new hire, andbegin the training process.
So you can negotiate the startdate.
(43:23):
So, as you can see, thenegotiating process with
employer is nuanced.
It can take a longer period oftime, more than just a one-off
conversation.
It's going to take a lot ofdiligence on your part to
understand what the employerneeds, how you can benefit them,
and it takes some artisticcreation on your part of your
(43:48):
style, you may even learn thatyou become a more articulate
negotiator doing other parts ofyour job.
Because of that process and ifyou don't challenge yourself to
learn new skills here, it'snegotiation skills and really
you know there are tons of booksyou can read about this.
(44:10):
I gave one example Getting toyes, which is a famous book.
So take the time.
If you are serious about youknow, asking, trying to get a
new job or asking for a raise oryou know non-monetary perks for
the job, take the time to puttogether your game plan and then
(44:30):
orchestrate it well and havesome flexibility with it, of
course, but then also evencreate a secondary position to
potentially, you may haveanother job offer elsewhere.
Even if you've been at this jobfor 20 years, you may have
another job lined up.
I mean so you want to reallythink strategically about your
(44:51):
negotiation.
It's more than just a one-off.
It's a process and you have toexpect the unexpected through
the process and be able to pivotwith certain things.
That happens.
That happens a lot in my legalcases and we do that.
So I hope you enjoyed this partof negotiation as a skill set to
(45:13):
learn.
I'll come up with other topicsin negotiating as well.
I'll come up with other topicsthat allow you to learn skill
sets as part of your job.
The Employee Survival Guide isgoing to do that for you, in
addition to you being the basicbaseline of legal and
knowledge-based.
You're going to get that.
We're going to jump evenfurther in making you a really
good candidate for all youremployers and make you
(45:36):
successful doing what you'redoing.
That's what the EmployeeSurvival Guide is really about.
All right, take care and have agood week.
Hey, it's Mark and welcome back to the Employee
Survival Guide where we say allthings your employer does not
want you to know about, and alot more.
Today's topic is the art ofnegotiation how to get what
you're worth.
Very worthwhile topic, no punintended.
But before I start, the topicis really an example of my
(00:23):
moving in a direction to expandupon the content you're getting
in this podcast.
We currently talk about topicsof whatever is happening at work
, performance reviews orwhatever you know.
The list is endless and usuallyit's generally reactive to
(00:58):
what's happening and try to giveyou skill sets that we also
have podcasts about actual caseexamples where you get to listen
to a storyline narrative aboutwhat the case is about or what
happened.
And now I want to start to addcontent to the website, to the
podcast episodes, like, forexample, today we're going to do
the art of negotiating.
And other topics will be morelike proactive in terms of your
careers and because I've seen alot of things about employees
(01:28):
and executives throughout mytime doing this, whereby know
lent me, allowed me into theirwork lives and I've gotten to
see a variety of styles ofworking.
You know again, it's you knowfrom the vantage point of the
attorney-client relationshipwith the employee or executive,
but nonetheless, you pick up alot of detail about the
relationships with theirmanagers, with their peers, and
(01:50):
so I wanted to give you a lotmore in terms of the content to
allow you to develop more skillsthan just beyond the legal,
reactive aspect of what's asexually hostile work
environment.
So we're expanding the scope ofwhat the Employee Survival
Guide is about.
So, with that said, negotiatingI negotiate all the time.
(02:13):
I negotiate whether I'm incourt or out of court.
I negotiate with judges.
I negotiate nonstop as anattorney, as a litigator, and
you learn a lot about the waysthat your opponents negotiate as
well, and you learn what'seffective, what's not effective.
And this podcast episode isabout negotiating, and I wanted
(02:33):
to just start off with the basicpremises about negotiating so
you understand from my vantagepoint.
I think they apply for justwork issues, but you know real
life circumstances.
But negotiating is about aprocess over a period of time,
not an all at once effort.
(02:54):
Don't expect things to happenjust because you ask, don't lay
down demands and threats, etcetera.
But in a podcast episode we'regoing to talk about specifically
the new job offer, ornegotiating a raise and
negotiating other terms of yourjob.
But I want to make sure youunderstand the basic premise
behind negotiating.
You may feel you're a goodnegotiator or not, but I've
(03:18):
tested myself in every singlenegotiation, typically to
mediation or settlementdiscussion.
It's high stakes, a lot ofmoney, a lot of emotion involved
.
I'm dealing with clients whoare aggravated by their
employers, what they've done tothem.
So that's in that context.
Typically it can be in courtnegotiations with a magistrate,
(03:40):
judge, or it can be privatelybetween lawyers or using a
mediator to do so with theparties.
And so I've done a lot ofmediation, a lot of successful
mediation, and what I'vediscovered is that the process
of negotiation you should allowyourself time.
So take out the anxiety ofnegotiating.
(04:03):
That's the first, I guesshurdle most people have is I
don't know how to negotiate, Icouldn't negotiate on behalf of
myself, et cetera.
So avoid that anxiety aspect,but look at more of it as it's a
process.
You want to get into theresearch of what the issues are
and what motivates the otherside.
A starting point is a famousbook years and years ago.
(04:25):
It's called Getting to.
Yes, it's a famous book nowdated in years, but it touts the
ideology of two sides can winduring a negotiation.
Well, I get some contradictorytype of messaging in my line of
work because, for example,judges will tell my clients
(04:48):
you're not going to like theresult of the mediation
settlement, but you'll learn tolive with it.
I don't necessarily agree withthat and still, you know, just
label that as a success, a win.
Even though you're resolving acase in the legal context and
(05:11):
you're getting paid a settlementfee, money and you're not going
to a verdict in front of acourt or a jury, it is still a
win because you're preventingthe outlay of money and time and
duration to an emotion for aprotracted circumstance, a legal
battle.
So defining success is reallyimportant in the process of
(05:35):
negotiating.
So a longer timeframe days,weeks, potentially scaffold out
your approach to negotiating.
Think about the intro, themiddle part, the conclusion part
.
Look at your opponent.
Who are you negotiating with?
What's their style?
Are they just simply a lot ofpeople like to say no because
(05:57):
it's easy to say no as aresponse to negotiating.
I don't generally listen to nobecause people tell me no all
the time, but that's not howcases are resolved.
And look for the process ofscaffolding your offers and
counteroffers as you movethrough the process, as you
learn more information about theother side.
(06:18):
So, in the context of worknegotiating, you want to learn
about what's good for theemployer, and I'll get into that
in a second.
But just look at the process.
It's going to take time.
Don't expect dramatic responses.
Yes, we'll give you what youwant.
That never happens and thenunderstand your opponent and
(06:38):
understand the style being used.
Understand the psychology I mean, this whole podcast is really
about psychology, because that'swhat negotiating is.
I'm teaching you to change yourpsychology to one where you're
more open-minded and mindful ofyour approach and removing your
(06:59):
anxiety about it and putting thetime and energy into your
negotiation to understand whatis the goal, how am I going to
get there, what am I willing togive up, what's reasonable?
And so go through the mechanicsof goal assessment and setting
out and just take it more slowly.
(07:21):
And it's the same process I usewith legal cases and by example
.
I'll give you this that I'll bein mediation and I'll prep a
client about what the process ofmediation is like with a
mediator and what the process ofnegotiation is like, and I'll
tell the client it says it maynot resolve today and of course
(07:42):
clients are like it's got toresolve today, by God it's got
to resolve, because they'repanicked and freaked out,
they're spending money theydon't have typically.
So it's a high-stressenvironment.
But I tell them that becauseoftentimes negotiating the first
day of negotiation it's notyour last day, it's just your
first day.
And so plan on multiple days ofnegotiating and it happens and I
(08:07):
say this and it's happened inquite a few high-profile cases.
These are cases that never hitthe newsday desk, they never hit
public knowledge, they're justhigh-profile cases.
But they resolved.
But they took several days ofworking with a judge to help the
parties resolve matter.
(08:28):
And because it was, you know,maybe sensitive people were
adjusting their positions, maybethey were just initially
fishing to figure out you know,let's just give them a no answer
and how they react to it.
And so a lot of things playinto how people negotiate from
the employer's employeestandpoint.
So multiple days is very, verycommon in complex situations and
(08:53):
you may have complex situationsat work.
So let's get into the worknegotiating.
I promised you the new joboffer, the negotiating arrays
and the negotiating other termsof your employment Again all
part of giving you more contentand skill sets to understand
real-life circumstances beyondjust the you know.
Here's the podcast aboutso-and-so case, or here's a
(09:17):
topic of a legal nature, gettinginto the nuances of.
You know your work life becauseit does matter to you and you
spend a lot of time there.
So, in short, when you thinkabout negotiating, you think you
know you basically have some.
Your palms start sweating andyou know you get really tense.
(09:40):
Whether you're a new hire, aseasoned pro looking for a raise
or about to walk into a new job, the ability to negotiate is
one of your most powerful toolsand it's a tool most employers
hope you don't know how to use.
You know me, I'm like I'm goingto give you everything your
employer does not want you toknow about, and a lot more.
You can't really learn aboutnegotiating at work Well,
(10:00):
because they don't teach itthere.
I mean duh.
So you're going to learn ithere and I'm going to spend a
lot of time not just one episode, but several episodes over a
period of time at differentaspects of negotiating.
So you know you pick up skillsets about different aspects of
negotiating.
So you know you pick up skillsets and you should know these
(10:20):
things because it's how you, youknow, rise up the ladder of
income, rise up the ladder inthe office space, it's through
negotiating.
I mean, I can honestly say thatI built my career negotiating.
All right, I do my job.
Of course I have my skill setof my job, but I negotiate in
various forms.
So let's be clear Negotiationis not a fight.
(10:44):
It's not about being aggressiveor making demands.
That's a rookie mistake.
Information-gathering process.
It's about finding out what theother side wants, what their
limitations are and how you canposition yourself to get what
you want, all while leaving themfeeling like they got a good
deal.
(11:04):
That's the getting the yesformat.
It's hard, but if you look andwork at it, you can get your
opponent or your employer, yourboss, to the yes point, to say
yes to whatever your demand is.
So again, three scenariosyou're going to look at job
(11:25):
offer, negotiating your raise,negotiating other terms of your
job.
So you've just gotten the calland they say we'd like to offer
you the position andcongratulations.
Now this is and this is not thetime to say yes right away.
Of course you want to pause.
You want to say and I tellclients to do this, I'll take it
(11:46):
under advisement, I'll get backto you because you want to
think about it.
Maybe you're an executive andyou're having a term sheet
announcement discussion withyour employer over the phone and
you want to go talk to me, youremployment attorney, to talk
about what the contract is goingto be, because it's several
million dollars and there's alot at stake and so you need to
kind of go through it veryslowly.
You say, basically thank youvery much, take it under
(12:09):
advisement, I'm excited aboutthe opportunity.
You want to get back to them.
So you need this time to gatherinformation about your opponent
here it's a new job and learn asmuch as you can about the
employer.
You've already done that at thepoint where you interviewed, et
cetera, and now you understandthe full picture, not just the
base salary, but you're lookingat base salary, total
(12:32):
compensation, benefits, thehidden stuff.
So base salary is the marketrate for the position you know,
realistic, you know what they'reoffering.
What about the location?
Is the base pay in Texas thesame as the base pay in, like,
new York City?
And you should have alreadyresearched this information.
(12:53):
And here's the problem with youknow there are two forms of
information.
There's well, maybe three.
I'll start with the third.
The third one being the youknow, anecdotal, like you know
your colleagues and friendstalking about what salary is.
Second is salarycom, which it'sa website out there I think
they're still out there.
I think they're still out there.
And then there's professionaldatabases.
(13:17):
You can pay to acquireinformation.
This is typically for themanagement, executive level.
I think the company is calledEquilarcom and in there they
basically give you kind of anapples-to-apples approach to
similar positions in the sameindustry, et cetera, to where
you can look it up.
It doesn't go below the C-suitelevel.
(13:39):
I do not believe.
But then there's maybe a fourthcategory information gathering.
You can have a headhunter andthey have information provided
because they maintain databases.
Total compensation that's thenext topic.
You know it's bonuses, equitystock options.
Do they have a profit-sharingprogram?
You want to get into what theyhave If it's a public company.
(14:10):
Now you can go into the SECgovand research the company you're
looking at to find out allthings there and typically go to
the annual report 10-K and lookat the exhibit list.
And you'll report 10K and lookat the exhibit list and then in
that list you'll see the variousequity incentive compensation
plans the company is willing tooffer if you're an executive, if
it's 401K, it's just they'regoing to give you a
participation in 401K.
There's no more defined benefitpensions any longer.
So that's over.
Typically, most people areoffered 401K if they're lucky.
(14:36):
Next item on the agenda for your.
What you're trying to reviewhere is, you know, the benefits,
health insurance, 401k, matchpaid time off and other perks.
These have real dollar values.
So, for example, you know, isthe company providing four weeks
paid vacation?
How many of those nationalholidays are you going to get
off?
Like 10 or 15 days in additionto your vacation?
(14:58):
Pay Benefits are reallyimportant.
Health insurance, of course,important.
I can't understate that one.
But the aspect of benefits isreally where the company is
setting the cultural tone of theorganization.
You need to find out what thatis.
If it's two weeks vacation,that's very limited.
(15:19):
They're going to work you tothe bone.
So the more benefits they'reproviding to the employees, the
better, and that defines theculture.
You have to look past thewebsite and kind of the
marketing shtick that they puton the website about their
culture.
Maybe ask around, Do someresearch about benefits and then
the hidden stuff.
(15:40):
The hidden stuff of the joboffer is is there a sign-on
bonus.
Maybe you're leaving behindmoney due to whatever
circumstance.
Equity or a bonus hasn't comedue yet.
You can forward that to youremployer the new employer and
saying you want to sign a bonusso you can recoup that and not
(16:03):
take a loss there.
And so maybe there's anothertopic of relocation assistance
or a non-compete clause thatcould restrict you later.
You want to know about that inadvance.
Non-competes are still aroundand still a sticky matter for
people to understand.
The FTC rule came out, but it'sin limbo right now through
(16:24):
court of appeals process.
It's not a rule.
So that issues and given thecurrent political climate and
the pro-business mindset of thefederal government right now, I
don't think that the non-competeissue is going to come up soon.
If the federal courts I thinkthe Fifth Circuit down in Texas
is handling this at theappellate level Maybe that rises
(16:48):
to the level of the SupremeCourt, who knows?
But we don't know the outcomeof that just yet.
So non-competes can be an issueof the hidden stuff.
So now you've done your homework, you researched the company in
the market, you now know whatyou're worth and you prepare a
concise, well-reasonedcounteroffer to the initial job
(17:09):
offer they made you and don'tthrow out a number without a
reason.
Think about it in advance, tieyour request to your value
Something like based on myresearch in the market for this
role and my unique skill set andmention the specific skills
that you have.
I was looking for a base salaryof so-and-so closer to X
(17:29):
dollars, and that's an offer ora counteroffer you're making.
You're not demanding, you'rejust simply stating your value
based on the data and you makean encounter offer.
The employer may say no, theymay meet you in the middle or
they may surprise you with abetter offer, but you'll never
know if you don't ask.
It's a really, and everybodykind of knows the circumstance.
(17:51):
If you don't ask, you don'treceive.
So you got to ask and you know.
Take the time to go throughthis process.
If you need to stall out theprocess to potentially aggravate
your employer, the potentialemployer a little bit, because
you know your worth and maybeyou have multiple offers and you
(18:12):
know people are probablythinking about well, what if I
have two offers?
You need to play that outbecause if you tell an employer
that you have another offerpending and they're lowballing
that offer, you need to makethem feel insecure.
Again, it's psychology,psychology that both parties
play in.
Now the employer thinks thismistaken belief that just
(18:35):
because they're the employer,they get to dictate terms.
That's not true.
Great example today is theissue of this trajectory of
companies trying to capture thebest AI professionals they can.
They're just beating themselvesup competitors trying to throw
as much money as possible to getthe best AI developers they can
(18:58):
, and so that's an example wherethe companies are not in
control.
They're having to bargain withtheir competitors to get this
new prized employee to come overto do AI research.
So it's an example.
So most employers do this dumbmistake and I'm going to say
(19:19):
it's a dumb mistake.
They always try to start withthis.
Employers are always right andthey're going to get what they
want approach.
That's not true.
If you let them have that andyou've given any indication
during your discussions withthem that there's a weakness in
you in your discussions aboutgiving an employer too much
(19:40):
power, they're going tomanipulate that.
They're going to see it,they're going to feel it.
So go into the negotiationstrong, confident, not cocky,
but just.
You know what your value is.
It doesn't matter what the jobis, you just know what your
value is.
You could be the best human,compassionate person possible to
the greatest AI developer, itdoesn't matter.
Just know what your value isand make it clear to the other
(20:03):
side what your value is, anddon't do it in a cheesy way,
please.
Just take a good stock aboutwho you are.
You should know who you are.
If you don't know who you are,then work on that.
It's a separate episode.
So just know who you are.
If you don't know who you are,then work on that.
It's a separate episode.
So just know who you are andwhat your value is, and take it
slow and take it methodicallyMaybe it's several conversations
(20:25):
to get to the point where youneed Throwing out offers that
start at some point as acounteroffer in response to the
employer's offer and then workyour way down slowly and then
figure out what your bottom lineis.
Maybe your bottom line is theother counteroffer.
Maybe your bottom line iseconomic because of your own
financial wherewith position,where you need X dollars of
(20:46):
income to satisfy your currenteconomic status.
So figure out a bottom line,figure out why you want that
bottom line and negotiate slowlydown towards that.
If the employer gets a littlelike you know, I don't know just
upset with your process, youknow, start to make them
understand that you know you are, you know you have value.
(21:09):
You can improve the company'scurrent position position, if I
can say this to you, if you canthink like the owner of that
company or the management ofthat company that you're trying
to go into, think like them interms of what they're selling,
what they're doing, what service, et cetera, that will enable
you to connect with them andfigure out what their current
(21:29):
problems are.
You're not just filling a seat.
I always try to ask people tothink about, you know, as an
entrepreneurial type of thinking, really just a matter of you
know, thinking out of the boxapproach when approaching a new
job offer, about the newemployer, what they're facing
because they're hiring youbecause the last person that
(21:50):
you're replacing probably didn'tdo the job very well, so
they're looking for somebody tocome in and do some change and
to do it in a more creative way.
That's why there's a new hireand figure out are you replacing
somebody or is this a new,developed position?
Is it a new position with partsdriven from different positions
(22:12):
that they had maybe downsizedor reorganized?
You need to figure out all themechanics of what came about the
new position you're beingoffered.
Think out what happened, ask alot of hard questions, listen to
the responses about whatthey're saying to you.
You'll learn a lot in terms ofwhat has taken place at that
(22:34):
point in time to see is that theright fit job for you?
It may not be, if you hear theword.
I was just, by example, readinga story in the Wall Street
Journal this morning.
Some folks went to a company itwas a new stock market that was
trying to get approval by theSEC, the Securities Exchange
(22:57):
Commission but the article smackon the front page of the Wall
Street Journal is the employeesstarted getting indoctrinated
into Scientology and they didn'tknow that and they started
taking trainings and the like.
It was a very long, you know.
So ask questions and figure outif they're right fit for you in
the particular job you'relooking at by asking hard
(23:18):
questions and listening to theirreaction.
So listening is really one ofthe important parts of
negotiating.
Listen to the tone, howsomebody says something, when
you pop a statement out that'spretty demonstrative or powerful
, influential, whatever that'sgoing to be.
Listen to the reaction and itcan tell a lot.
(23:41):
And I do that all the timeBecause sometimes with good
people or people who are reallygood at negotiating judges and
lawyers you really have to justdiscern how it's being said, the
pause, the hesitation andreaction.
You can pick up patterns of howpeople are processing what's
(24:03):
happening in real time.
So negotiating requireslistening skills to discern
what's taking place at a momentby moment so you can, you know,
swift and dodge and maneuver toget what you need.
But it doesn't.
It's not a reactionary thing,you just want to listen for it,
take notes and reflect upon itand then come up with your next
(24:26):
move.
So to speak.
It's kind of like a chess gameto figure out what's not being
said, that's happening still inthe room even though it's not
being said, or there's a howit's being reacted to, or the
comment you're making, by howtheir body movements or their
voice and tone.
So that's a little bit furtherexpanded version of the
(24:51):
negotiating the job offer.
So next one is negotiating araise.
Okay, so you already have thejob and you've been a rock star,
of course, because everybodythinks they're a rock star, they
don't have any.
You know negative sides or redflags to them and you feel you
deserve more money now.
This is a very differentnegotiation than a new job offer
, because you have a historywith this employer and history
(25:14):
is your leverage, okay, so firstthing is it's not a one-time
conversation when you're askingfor a raise, and you should be
documenting your accomplishmentsthroughout the year, of course
in real time.
An email to your manager, notnecessarily, hey, I'm going to
get the raise in a few months,you know, but I'm going to send
(25:35):
you this email.
Just think strategicallythrough this process Take your
win, Applaud others who are alsoresponsible for that win, at
the same time gloating about thewin.
But essentially, later onyou'll be able to use those
(25:57):
emails and, you know, argue withyour employer for a raise.
So you know you want to keepthese emails in a folder
somewhere and every time youexceed the expectations, you
know save the email and theaccomplishment.
And or if you get the positivefeedback from a client, or
(26:18):
you've learned a new skill, ormaybe you graduated and got your
MBA, you write it all down andthis is your brag sheet.
So you schedule a meeting withyour boss and you frame it as a
conversation about your careerand your future with the company
and don't just show up and sayI want more money.
That's a guaranteed way not toget it and you'll receive a no.
(26:40):
Instead, the conversationshould be recapping your value
to the company, quote unquote inthe past year I've been
responsible for a list ofaccomplishments and you know.
You recognized me at certaindates and you said the following
to me about theseaccomplishments.
So they make your case for whyyour value has increased.
Based on these contributions tomy expanded role and
(27:03):
responsibilities to the company,I believe my salary should
increase by X dollars and be afair reflection of the current
market value for my currenttalents.
You get the gist.
So your argument is not based onyour personal needs, it's based
upon the business logic.
So here I'll take, for example,when people negotiate severance
(27:24):
without any claim, I say giveme 10 things that you did
recently that the employer knowsand they can agree that you did
those things well, and that'sthe reason why you want to be
compensated in negotiationbeyond what they offered you,
because without a claim youreally can't negotiate a
(27:45):
severance increase than otherthan what the employer offered
you.
So that's a goodwillnegotiation, the job raise
negotiations similar to that.
Obviously, the difference isyou're still working and so in
this circumstance you want tocome up with your list of
accomplishments.
They just need it.
(28:06):
Or maybe they're economicallypinched and they need it.
(28:26):
It's really about, I believe,looking holistically at the
employer from the employeestandpoint about about how
they've benefited the company inlarge measure.
That's real, that the companyhas, you know, receives a large,
you know, benefit of their work.
But I'm trying to get at is youknow, you're a long-timer in
(28:49):
the employer, you plan to spenda long time with this employee
that you, you know, eat, drinkand crap.
You know the employer's cultureand you're not faking it.
There are people there I thinkthat's probably currently less
than 30% who are so quoteunquote called fully engaged and
(29:13):
maybe you know those people I'mthinking about that they live
and breathe the company, but 70%of you, by the way, are
disengaged, and you know who youare.
It's basically people who arejust taking a paycheck or
hugging the job, so to speak,these days.
They're not quitting andrunning to another job.
But so that's a uniqueenvironment to be in today to
(29:38):
ask for a raise.
When you ask for a raise,employers are going to probably
say no.
So you have to do your homeworkto convince them to say yes and
what is the benefit they'regoing to gain from it and you're
working with the stack cards isagainst you here, because
companies are reorganizing andshoving more job duties on each
(30:01):
employee already present.
So you're getting, basically,more job duties, same pay.
And, if you didn't know this,that's a way of saving money for
the company, because they canmake you do it, because you
don't have any leverage or atleast they think you don't and
it's happening currently, in2025.
It may shift and move in lessor so, but companies are
(30:22):
currently doing this to savemoney.
They're also laying people offtoo, so asking for a raise is
like you're battling uphill.
It doesn't mean you can't askfor it.
You should.
The other aspect of asking for araise is that you believe, and
you're communicating to theemployer, that you deserve it
and it's beneficial to thecompany, and you're making it
(30:44):
with a straight face.
You're not bullshitting theissue.
It's real and you operate withthe facts, that the company
knows the same set of facts andthat you've got to convince the
employer that, well, if youdon't incentivize me with a
raise like a bonus, but a raiseis similar.
It's long-lasting, it's largerover time than a bonus that you
(31:09):
may, you know, want to jump ship.
It's doable, you can make that.
You know employer believe thatthey can become insecure, that
you may want to jump, you maywant to throw in, you know, in a
raise or promotional change,whatever Raise and promotions
are kind of a similar thing.
But making the employer feelinsecure about their position,
(31:33):
that you may ditch them.
You're right in the middle of ahuge project, whatever it is,
and it's okay to do that becauseyou know it's negotiation.
Negotiation is not just one ruleof thumb, it's an approach
taken with a lot of informationthat you've gathered to
understand the employer'sstrengths and weaknesses.
(31:54):
You want to focus on theweakness part of it.
Obviously you're touting thestrengths.
You have to benefit theemployer.
But you know targeting theirinsecurities and I do this as a
living I target the insecuritiesof companies all the time when
I throw claims at them, forexample, of whatever
discrimination or something.
That's a whistleblowing.
That's happened.
You know they don't want thatknown by the public.
(32:15):
So it's an insecurity.
So that's the reason why theynegotiate, because they don't
want that publicly known.
So it's an example.
Lawsuits, or at leastthreatened lawsuits, threat or
target and shame employersbefore they're filed as a means
to target their insecurities.
Employers have them.
You just don't know thatbecause you're not in my line of
(32:36):
work, where I see it all thetime.
You can see that insecurity inthe form of the cases we put up
on the podcast.
You know employers are gettingwhacked for millions and
millions of dollars because youknow they have insecurities.
They did something wrong andyou know if they want to play
that hard game they can lose andyou know they can get verdicts
against them and that's what thepurpose of those cases are
(32:58):
about to showcase that.
So employers are not, you know.
Long answer to all this aboutnegotiating a raise.
Employers do have weaknesses.
You need to exploit them.
Find out what they are they canbe large and small and exploit
them.
But don't do it in a way to,you know, shame them or anything
.
Obviously a professional, youwant to.
You know you can sometimesintimate things.
(33:19):
You know, shame them oranything.
Obviously a professional youwant to.
You want to.
You know you can sometimesintimate things.
You know without saying thingsdirectly.
You can say things you knowunder your you know by implicit
nature of what you're saying.
But do your homework about anemployer.
Don't just go in there and sayI want a raise.
That's utterly crazy and youwant to, I think the best.
(33:39):
I would give a raise tosomebody who really took the
time to understand what I wasdoing as an employer and went
into detail about it and evencame up with ideas that I didn't
even think of.
That shows to me that theemployee is, you know, believing
in the core mission that we'resetting out to do, above and
(34:00):
beyond just, you know,collecting a paycheck,
collecting paycheck.
People can be easily spotted bythe way and you don't want to be
one of them.
You want to be the person who'smaking a paycheck, or at least
making your employer feel thatthey, that you know you're a
very valuable resource to thecompany.
And employers know the twodifferent types of people.
(34:22):
There's people who takepaychecks and sit on their jobs
and they job hug because they'reengaged, but they're not fully
engaged.
We have a really harsh currentcircumstance today in this
workforce of 70 percent of theemployee population are
disengaged.
70% of the employee populationare disengaged.
If you don't understand whatthat means, it means that people
(34:43):
are just going to work, waitingfor Friday and collecting a
paycheck.
I mean, that's not a greatposition to be in on a
nationwide basis.
But you don't want to be inthat crowd.
If you want to fake it and makeit look like you're in the other
crowd of 30% who are engaged,those are the go-getters.
Those are the people who arethinking out of the box.
They're not backstabbing atwork, they are playing the game
(35:07):
critically.
They are measured steps andnegotiating a raise is a
measured step.
So you want to be in thatcategory.
So it's kind of a nod out tothis issue.
If you think you're disengagedat work, change your mindset
about this into the engaged part, even if you have to fake it.
But be realistic about yourfaking it.
Maybe you'll fake it to thepoint where you actually do
(35:30):
enjoy your job again.
But maybe you're disengaged fora lot of other reasons.
But understand why you'redisengaged.
It's really an unhealthyposition to be in, why you're
disengaged.
It's really an unhealthyposition to be in and the
current thinkers of the worlddon't really understand the why
part.
They just tell you thestatistic, gallup in particular.
So negotiating your A's there'sa lot goes into it, just like
(35:53):
the job offer Negotiation as youcan hear it.
It's got a lot of nuance to it.
It's a lot of style.
What is your style.
For example, ask yourself thatMine is kind of a blunt force,
trauma approach to it, typicallyworst case scenario, and I kind
of throw it all at the employer.
Factually I don't engage intiptoe approach.
(36:16):
I just say here is everythingyou need to understand what is
going on in this particular case.
Or if you're negotiating araise, everything that's going
on here as I see it, mr Employerand it can be the good, the bad
and the ugly and it shows acomprehensive approach to it.
So approach negotiation likethat Style is my other part of
(36:39):
my style in negotiating I reallydidn't talk about this so far
is a consistency approach.
I'm going to start with atelegraphed assortment of things
that I'm going to do.
Or, if you know me well enough,you can just ask colleagues on
the opposing side and find outhere's what Kerry does, and
that's fine because it might bedeliberate on my part to let
(37:01):
people know that that's what Ido, because I may have a game
strategy that's different thanthat.
Let's say I come to the tablewith all guns a-blazing at the
negotiating table and then I doan about-face and I do something
proactively positive that has alot of compassion for the
employer, kind of a mind screwfor the employer.
(37:22):
So think about the psychologyand the style that you're using
for negotiating.
You're going to have to figureout what your own style is.
Typically, it'scharacteristically driven by
your own personality.
But give it a thought, itdoesn't matter.
It doesn't matter and awell-orchestrated negotiating
strategy and style can look like.
(37:46):
Just think of a person who'sslow in their response to the
things that are arising duringthis discussion.
They're thought through,they're digested.
Not necessarily the personwho's very reactive.
I know a lot of attorneys thatwant to just scream and shout at
me.
They're not very effective,they just whine like little
children.
So you have to figure out yourstyle and I'm always looking to
(38:11):
assess that who's my opponent,what's their like?
I look them up before I go meetthem.
I look up judges before I gotalk to them.
Anything I can get to figureout who my opponent is.
It's going to adjust the styleof the cap I'm going to wear for
the day because I'm going tochange character.
I can be a lot of characters.
So it's a little bit of actingin this approach when you're
(38:33):
negotiating and so, as you cansee, there's a lot to
negotiating.
There's a lot of nuance to it.
So it's just simply not askingfor a raise, it's so much more.
Now the next thing isnegotiating things about your
job that don't involve money.
It's about anything andeverything related to your job.
(38:57):
So it can go like this thework-life balance, the
professional development, a newtitle, how about a start date?
And so work-life balance.
Well, hell, we just wentthrough that entire discussion
in the last three, four yearsand now we're at the back end of
that discussion of work-lifebalance because most of you are
(39:17):
being ordered back to work.
In my office we never did that.
We were remote work from beforethe pandemic happened and
people are fine.
And, by the way, you can besuccessful as a business and
have people work remotely.
It does work.
The only reason people are putback to work is because of rents
.
Employers have to pay rents.
(39:38):
Put back to work is because ofrents employers have to pay
rents.
So the work-life balance is animportant aspect for a lot of
people.
If you have a medical issue, ifyou have childcare needs, et
cetera, that's going to be anissue you need to.
It's a non-monetary thing.
You need to negotiate that andlet's just target this a little
bit.
Are there other people in theorganization who currently work
(39:59):
there that have remote work.
Why do they have it If theemployer has a blanket approach
to it?
I'm sorry but there's the onlyway to get around that blanket
approach of all go back to work,et cetera is if you have a
disability of some form and youhave to document that and make
(40:25):
an argument why you need aremote work schedule to
accommodate your disability,whatever that may be physical,
mental, mental, nervous.
So work-life balance also is ifthe employer doesn't have a
blanket approach to basicallyall people work at the office
and they don't allow for remotework, you have to then dig down
into do I present a value to theorganization that I can
negotiate a one-off because I'mspecial, meaning you are special
(40:46):
, we know you're special, butI'm being funny.
But is there anything uniqueabout you that the employer
wants to bend over a little bitbackwards for you, even though
others will see it, to allow youto work remotely?
So there is that circumstanceand you want to play politics to
get that.
(41:11):
The professional developmentaspect the company pay for
certifications, conferences,advanced degrees.
You know that type ofprofessional development
benefits the employer you know.
For example, I asked, I justtold employees, you know, read
the newspapers, because I wantthem to read and learn or just
hear about current topics, and Isaid I'll pay for your
subscription.
(41:31):
The other thing is, you know Ipay for, you know, a gym
membership because they need toget out of the computer work
seat and go just exercise,because it's very important,
because we spend our time in ourseats At least I don't.
I don't do that.
I definitely get out there andexercise.
But professional development isa feature, but it's not
monetary related and it benefitsboth you and the employer, of
(41:52):
course.
So you can negotiate that.
A new title, you know it'ssimilar to the raise and it's
non-monetary.
This one I don't really see somuch as it's more of a
reputational thing If you needit.
I see employers do this andthis is why I'm so negative on
it.
They always they award newtitles as something of value to
(42:18):
you, but real reality, you'restill doing the same job.
Or maybe they gave you moreresponsibility but they didn't
give you more pay.
So screw you the new title, Idon't care.
Uh, or they, they get fuzzywith you know changing, uh, you
know, from director levels tosome of their, or senior VP to
some change, but in reality it'sstill the same job and who
(42:39):
knows why they do it.
It's kind of weird, but blameHR.
I guess you can negotiate thestart date of when you want to
start.
So that's actually an issuethat comes up a lot of times
with when you're leaving a joband you're negotiating a
severance.
Negotiating a severance, I tellclients that you want to try to
(43:02):
orchestrate the severanceexecution of the agreement and
give a little time a week or twofor maybe a vacation.
You need a little break tostart the new job.
A lot of times the new employeris going to want to rush you
right in because they don't givea shit.
They just want to have youstart and they want to just, you
know, check that box and saythat we're done with that
project, we got a new hire, andbegin the training process.
So you can negotiate the startdate.
(43:23):
So, as you can see, thenegotiating process with
employer is nuanced.
It can take a longer period oftime, more than just a one-off
conversation.
It's going to take a lot ofdiligence on your part to
understand what the employerneeds, how you can benefit them,
and it takes some artisticcreation on your part of your
(43:48):
style, you may even learn thatyou become a more articulate
negotiator doing other parts ofyour job.
Because of that process and ifyou don't challenge yourself to
learn new skills here, it'snegotiation skills and really
you know there are tons of booksyou can read about this.
(44:10):
I gave one example Getting toyes, which is a famous book.
So take the time.
If you are serious about youknow, asking, trying to get a
new job or asking for a raise oryou know non-monetary perks for
the job, take the time to puttogether your game plan and then
(44:30):
orchestrate it well and havesome flexibility with it, of
course, but then also evencreate a secondary position to
potentially, you may haveanother job offer elsewhere.
Even if you've been at this jobfor 20 years, you may have
another job lined up.
I mean so you want to reallythink strategically about your
(44:51):
negotiation.
It's more than just a one-off.
It's a process and you have toexpect the unexpected through
the process and be able to pivotwith certain things.
That happens.
That happens a lot in my legalcases and we do that.
So I hope you enjoyed this partof negotiation as a skill set to
(45:13):
learn.
I'll come up with other topicsin negotiating as well.
I'll come up with other topicsthat allow you to learn skill
sets as part of your job.
The Employee Survival Guide isgoing to do that for you, in
addition to you being the basicbaseline of legal and
knowledge-based.
You're going to get that.
We're going to jump evenfurther in making you a really
good candidate for all youremployers and make you
(45:36):
successful doing what you'redoing.
That's what the EmployeeSurvival Guide is really about.
All right, take care and have agood week.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.