November 1, 2024 • 38 mins
Jaim Zuber returns after over 5 years to give us an overview of looking for a job in iOS development in 2024, how has it changed, what are some things you can do now, and when becoming a manager is the right call.
Guest
Announcements
- Need help with your projects this year? BrightDigit has openings.
- Join Bushel Beta
- Join our Brand New Patreon Page!
- BrightDigit #100 - Top 10 Emails Ever! 🎉🚀
- Newsletters | BrightDigit
- Swift LiveCoding - Adding Screen Recording to Bushel
- How does Server Side Swift Workout in the Real World? - Leo Dion
Links
- The Engineer/Manager Pendulum – charity.wtf
- The Pragmatic Engineer's Resume Template - The Pragmatic Engineer
- Amazon.com: The Manager's Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change
- Resilient Management 1, Hogan, Lara, eBook - Amazon.com
- Swift 6 Incomplete Migration Guide for Dummies
- Migrating to Swift 6
- Convert Resume Github Workflow
Related Episodes
- Edge of Concurrency with Matt Massicotte
- Going Pro with Sean Allen
- Humane Development with Jill Scott
- Impactful Development with Maxim Cramer
- Practical Entrepreneur with Donny Wals
- Large Scale Teams with Joe Fabisevich
- Upgrading Your Skills in 2020 with Paul Hudson
- External Developers with Jaim Zuber
- Triple Glazed Apple Development with Malin Sundberg and Kai Dombrowski
Social Media
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leo Dion (host) (00:00):
Hey everybody.
(00:00):
Before we begin, I have a fewthings I wanted to announce.
As you can see, if you're watchingthis on YouTube or maybe you're
listening to this on your podcastplayer, this is the first episode
in my brand new office studio.
At the time of the recordingthis episode with Jaim, it
was still getting set up.
So I apologize for some issueswith the audio in that episode.
Regardless, the contact is fantastic,so definitely check that out.
(00:24):
I'm pretty much, I just need toset up a green screen, so hopefully
in the next few episodes you'llsee that up in my announcements.
Next I wanted to say that ifyou're not subscribed to the
Bright Digit newsletter, youshould there's some really cool
new newsletters that came out.
Issued 100 went over our toparticles, so that if you're gonna
get started, that's a great oneto get started with to see some of
(00:47):
the cool stuff that we've put out.
And then issue number 1 0 1.
Was about my trip to London andthe server side server side,
SWIFT conference, and some ofthe great talks that were there.
We have videos links to all the videosof all the talks, including mine.
So if you wanna know how thatwent you'll definitely wanna check
both of those out and subscribeto the Bright Digit newsletter.
(01:09):
Next.
I'm still looking for folkswho are interested in.
Beta testing bushel bushel two.
I'm hoping to come at copingto release by the end of the
year which will be just in timefor the one year anniversary.
I'm really if you're interestedin the development and how that's
going, you should subscribe to theYouTube channel because I've been live
(01:29):
streaming every 9:00 AM on Tuesday.
My time zone, E-D-T-E-S-T depending onwhether this is before November or not.
And yeah, just go to get bushel.com.
I'm adding in a screen recording andsome stuff there for folks to be able
to record the work that they're doing ontheir VM and take screenshots and stuff.
(01:49):
So definitely check that out.
And lastly we have a Patreon.
If you are really enjoying my content,I would appreciate your support.
It'd be greatly appreciated.
I released these episodeson cut early on there.
I might put out some drafts of contentthat I'm working on, things like that.
So definitely check that out as well.
(02:12):
Patreon.com/bright digit.
All the links will be in theshow notes, and that's about it.
Thank you.
Have a good rest of yourday and enjoy this episode,
Welcome to anotherepisode at Empower Apps.
I'm your host Leo Dion,back from five years ago.
We have Jaim Zuber
(02:32):
from episode 11.
Jaim, thank you so muchfor coming back on.
It's been a while.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (02:37):
Yeah, probably five, five years or so but yeah, glad to be
back and I've been enjoying all thestuff you've been posting since then.
Leo Dion (host) (02:43):
Thank you.
So for
those who don't remember episode 11,could you go ahead, introduce yourself?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (02:50):
Yeah, so my name's Jaim Zuber.
I've been working on Appleplatforms almost exclusively, not
entirely for, the past 14 years.
Started,
Maybe 2011, mostly iOS, a little bitof Mac here and there as needed, but
a lot of that was as a consultant.
So I was doing independent work, gota chance to work with some really
cool apps, especially, in the 2010s.
(03:11):
Over the past threeyears, I switched gears.
I took a
leadership role, so I was a directorof engineering for a digital bank.
Did that, enjoyed it, so I didit with kinda a manager slash
director slash principal engineer.
Enjoyed it, but that endedearlier this year doing layoffs.
That's a.
A pretty common trend throughout theindustry of people just being laid off.
That, that's it in everyone.
Yeah, I got back to consulting alittle more hands-on work enjoying it.
(03:35):
Being able to
write code every day.
So I'm doing that now and kindlooking for work, looking for a
full-time job while doing consulting
work.
And that kind of brings us up into ourtopic, which we're gonna talk about.
How do you
navigate, this job market, which is
unlike.
Most of us have ever seen.
Leo Dion (host) (03:52):
Yeah, and I've been doing this for 25 years now, and.
I've been through recessions, butnothing like this where it's not
really a recession, but tech has beenhard, parti hit particularly poorly.
Just kinda what's your thoughtson what, what's changed?
Why is it different this time?
(04:13):
What, like what areyou finding out there?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (04:16):
Yeah, what's different is we had a
gold rush for years, a decade.
Interest rates were close tozero, so tons of people were
fund pouring money into startups.
Big tech had justinfinite money to spend.
Everyone's hiring.
And like we all benefited from that,
Salaries skyrocketed.
We've all done pretty well in that era.
(04:36):
And that ended interestrates went back up.
We printed a bunch of money duringthe downturn and we're paying
for that down, trying to keep,the, from, macroeconomic forces.
We're trying to keep inflation low,lower, and that's affecting us.
But we've had a great run.
It's just an adjustmentright now where we have to.
A new type of market.
Leo Dion (host) (04:56):
Yeah.
And part of it, I've seen this as faras a homeowner, I've been affected by
the interest rates, So I totally get it.
Just buying a new house and thenalso the fact that I mean it
seems to me like AI has suckedall the oxygen in the room.
As far as like any tech spending thatthere is, it's all going towards,
(05:19):
yeah, basically ai, AI researchpeople think that they're gonna
get a lot of return off of that.
I'm very doubtful that it's going tobe the revolution people think it is.
And I think, yeah, that'smade it really difficult.
On top of that, I've also just seenissues with basically don't know
if it's the term ghost posting,but there's just a ton of posts out
(05:42):
there and there's a ton of peopleapplying and then on top of it
there's just a lot of garbage as far
as job postings are concerned, and soit's like hard to navigate that as well.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (05:55):
That's true.
I think, the jobs are out there.
I think there arecompanies with openings.
It's just very competitive forthe openings that are out there.
And like you said, there are companiesthat just post things to look good.
I.
Or jobs that they don't, they haveno intention of hiring or just
don't quite have the budget yet.
So there, there are a lot ofpostings that aren't real, but I
(06:17):
think the jobs aren't out there.
I think the challenge isit's just super competitive.
There's way more people lookingthan there ever have been before.
There's tons of layoffs in theindustry over the past year or two.
HR was big part of layoffs.
If a company's not gonnaexpand, they got rid of hr.
So we've got a, you've alreadygot, they were already understaffed
(06:37):
for the past year,even if they're hiring.
You got one hr, you got one
HR person.
They're, they were already overworked
and now
they're completely overworkedtrying to hire for this
position, and they've got 200
resumes to look at.
Half are not
real people.
The AI generated or some scam, andthey have, they've got a, they've
got a scan, a resume for five seconds
(06:57):
and figure out if you'rethe right person or not.
It's just that's the game.
That's the game we're in.
Three years ago, my resume would geta return call from like 80, 90% of the
things I sent for, but that would belike lead staff, principal type things.
Typically now it'scloser to 10, maybe 20,
Leo Dion (host) (07:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's talk a little bitabout what you've been doing
to navigate that market ormaybe even pivot in your career
as a lead principal,senior iOS developer.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (07:28):
Yeah let's talk about more
kind of the hands on things you can do.
First thing I did is justtightened up my resume,
Make sure it was likefour or five pages.
It was just long and it worked.
I had no reason to mess with it.
Before, but,
Now you wanna tie it up.
You wanna have the stuff that'sdirectly relevant to the job you're
applying for right at the top.
(07:49):
cause hr, the person scanning
your resume, is gonna look atthe first three below points.
And if it's not a match you're done.
You know you're out they'llnever see you again.
It's important to,
have a resume that's really tunedfor the position you're applying for.
If you're applying for a seniorengineer position, your resumes can.
be very different froman engineering manager.
Or yeah, even a staff or lead engineer.
(08:12):
If you're a, if you're a seniorengineer, mid-level engineer, make
sure your hands-on skills are rightup front, features that you've
worked on, stuff thatyou did, if you're,
if it's a lead, make sure thatleadership's up top, that you've
led teams, things like that.
If your staff principal, makesure that you've been able to
show impact like beyond your team.
Hey, I helped my whole organizationimprove their test coverage or whatever.
(08:36):
We
Leo Dion (host) (08:36):
right,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (08:37):
document improve documentation, which
allowed the teams to move faster.
Things like that.
So I've got a different resumefor each type of role that
I apply for, and I think.
Leo Dion (host) (08:48):
There's just so many positions out there that seems like
a lot of work to have to if I'm gonnaapply to 10 or 20 positions to have
to make 10 or 20 resumes, is there asimpler, more optimal way to do that?
So you can.
Apply to a lot of positions, but thesame time, like not waste time because
like you could end up basically notgoing anywhere with it because, I'd
(09:14):
rather have more applications, moreresumes posted than necessarily
making every single one Perfect.
If that makes sense.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (09:20):
Yeah, you're not gonna rewrite your resume for
every job post that's out there.
That's not something that.
That's really doable.
I've
got, three or four basicstandard ones that I have.
My, if it sounds like a lead engineer,it's one thing if the staff or
principal, it's another, if it's theengineering manager, it's one if it's a
director, 'cause those are all differentthings that you're gonna look for that
(09:41):
So I've got four basic templates thatI use and it's all the same content.
It's just sums higher, some'slower, but I, versus, I, I would
definitely say pick your spotsfor the roles that you apply for.
Look ones that are reallygood fits yep, I am.
I can walk in there with this rightface and say, I'm the exact right
person they wanna hire for this.
(10:03):
Start with those, startwith, and put time in.
I'd say, invest time in it.
If you're looking for work,
you got time.
And looking for work is afull-time job, it's, it.
When you're doing
it, it takes time.
It's draining.
It's not easy.
So I, my approach is like, just pick the
best ones and, but it's alsoimportant use your time wisely,
(10:24):
Say is this type of thing that's gonnaget me to the next phase, maybe not.
And even if I have the perfect resumefor the perfect job, you get bounced,
Leo Dion (host) (10:32):
right.
How, what do you thinkabout cover letters?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (10:36):
I don't have a good answer for that.
One thing, AI can help 'em with that.
That's one thing AI is good for.
You just say.
Leo Dion (host) (10:41):
Yeah I think that's a good point.
It is just cover letter is a littlebit like, to me it'd be like emailing
somebody or messaging somebody inHR at a particular company being,
Hey, I posted here, I'm, I reallyknow a lot about swift concurrency
and migrating to Swift concurrency.
I think I could reallyhelp out your team.
(11:02):
Be very be very specific when you.
In your cover letter or in your contactof that person about why you are a great
fit, show that you actually read therequirements and what they're looking
for, and I think that goes a longway to getting your name out there.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (11:18):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Definitely have everythingin your cover letter be true.
Even if you can start withAI and I don't really know
if
Leo Dion (host) (11:26):
You could start with ai, but don't let it be
too generic and sound like abunch of nonsense, which can
Jaim Zuber (guest) (11:33):
Oh yeah the HR person, I'm sure they can spot a, an
a AI generated resume right there.
So you have to be able to standbehind everything that's in there.
I told my team would, when I was doing,when I was a director, it would submit
documentation that was AI driven.
I was like, okay, that's okay,but you have to stand behind
everything that's in there.
It,
It's still you submitting iteven to something else wrote it.
(11:55):
It's good.
It's okay for a starting point.
But yeah, don't lean too hard intoit and really, I don't really know.
I have no, I don't know if coverletters are worth it anymore,
pre three years, three years
ago.
Leo Dion (host) (12:07):
to me doesn't necessarily mean cover letter,
like something super fancy.
It just more means like a paragraphor a couple sentences just saying,
Hey, I'm interested in this position.
I saw this this would be great for me.
Here's why you should hire me, and I'veattached my resume and call it good.
I don't know what more a coverletter should be, but I don't think
(12:28):
it needs to be more than that right
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:30):
Yeah, it could be lightweight and three years
ago, I didn't even bother them.
I just set it out thereand I think no one did.
Now it's I don't know, but Idon't have any info to say you
should do a covered letter.
I don't know if any
Leo Dion (host) (12:41):
right,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:41):
I don't know.
If I don't.
If they don't look at the resume, you'redead in the water Anyway I do have,
Leo Dion (host) (12:45):
really good point.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:46):
yeah, I do have a summary at the top of my
resume, which is a newer thing.
So it just kinda explains yeah, I'vedone, I've been a manager, I've been a
director, but now I'm trying to be handson, so just a kind of a summary, which
could do some cover letter type things.
So that's one thing I did add to myresume based on some advice that I read.
Leo Dion (host) (13:06):
How many pages is your resume?
How many is too many pages?
I've done a lot, I've done a lot of
work in that time.
How many,
pages should I have?
Like how many pages
is too many?
And how do I like, summarize it insuch a way that somebody's gonna
be interested in it, if that makes
Jaim Zuber (guest) (13:24):
Right.
I, think the standardanswer is you want it?
Add two pages.
I never did this before, likethree years ago when I was looking,
it was like four or five pages.
'cause I've been doing this a long time.
Like you had a lot of coolstuff on there that I had done.
And I figured, and people woulddig into the old stuff, like in an
interview or something they madeoh, I worked with this technology.
(13:46):
Just a way to, connect with your, withthe person who's interviewing you.
But I think nowadays,like HR expects it, to be.
Yep.
Two pages have all the goodstuff right up front, like no
one really cares what you did.
Even five years ago,
It's it's all what have you done lately?
Especially with this parking wherethere's so many resumes out there, like
you wanna make sure everything that'srelevant to this job is right up front.
Leo Dion (host) (14:10):
Yeah, the only thing I can think of is I have this experience.
I know how to learn new things.
I know how to lead a team.
The more abstract stuff I thinkwould be helpful on a resume.
But otherwise, if it's newer technowhere they're just like, I just want
you to make sure you know the latesttechnology, like that's it, then yeah,
it makes total sense to just havethe latest five years of, work that
(14:32):
you've done in Swift ui, for instance.
What do you have any othertips when it comes to resumes
like gotchas or do's or don'ts?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (14:41):
Yeah, not sure.
I would say I'm a
Leo Dion (host) (14:42):
Winds, wind digs is at the preferred font now.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (14:45):
windings.
Yeah, that
that's definitely the way to go.
One tip I did
learn is that I always exported mine
to PDF.
Like some back in the
day, like recruiters would literallychange your resume if you submitted
a word or something like that.
I've had recruiters do that, likesketchy stuff, so I always did.
I always did a PDF.
And if you submit it,it's gonna be harder
(15:07):
for the tracking system toread all the stuff out of
there for your experience.
So you're gonna go thereand fix a bunch of stuff.
So be able to export tolike word format and pages.
Pages
can do that.
So you can do that from your Mac.
Like with everything, but especiallyif anything workday, export it to
the Word document you'll be happier.
Leo Dion (host) (15:25):
So my my anecdote is I recently submitted a marked down resume
in Workday and it was marked as spam.
I now have I'll post a linkto it in the show notes, but
I have a marked down to PDF.
Converter that.
runs a GitHub action.
'cause that's where I had my resume.
(15:46):
So hopefully from now onI won't have that issue.
But yeah, it sucks.
'cause Workday especially, it'sjust not gonna look at it, it's
not gonna check what it looks like.
So you think like a mi you thinkMicrosoft Word is better than PDF?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:01):
Yeah, especially for things where they're scanning
it and trying to get it to yourexperience, like work rate does that.
And
Leo Dion (host) (16:07):
They don't scan PDFs.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:09):
they do, they just make a lot of mistakes.
So I had to go
Leo Dion (host) (16:12):
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:12):
Any like small eye, I had to fix every version of
every time Swift has mentioned myresume, which is everywhere I had
to go and change it that got fixed
when
I,
Leo Dion (host) (16:23):
What, did it do with Swift?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:24):
Any like little, I lowercase, I, it just got it wrong.
So any word we thought,okay, I had to go and fix.
Once it's already in there.
So the automatic import worked a lotbetter with Document, with a Word doc.
Workday is a terrible software from thehiring side and from the applicant side.
Just that's
just,
Leo Dion (host) (16:43):
it's what was I gonna say?
And now with these cutHR departments, they just
are gonna totally rely ona piece of crap to do it.
That sucks.
How, what do you think of formatting?
Keep it all one font.
Bold out things that you think aregonna really catch people's eye.
Maybe use headers properly.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:04):
I think all of those things, like I'm not I
wouldn't be the grant expert for
all.
Leo Dion (host) (17:09):
I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Just think of it from the HR personwho's gonna wanna look at this quickly
and just be like, yes, no, and then.
Do you think like links,do you think links work?
Like people will actuallylook at it and be like, yeah,
I wanna pull this up and seewhat they actually did, or,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:27):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't really have any links in mind.
I just know there's a good site I wasgonna, it's in the show notes from.
Gie Roche, who's done a lot ofwriting on the tech industry.
He's got eng, he's gotthe resume template site.
He's got a book on the engineertech, the tech resume, and he
just gives out tons of good advice
Leo Dion (host) (17:47):
we'll put that in the show notes.
So definitely take a
look at
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:49):
that's in the, that's in the notes.
But yeah, have as much as youcan have a standard format.
Don't get too weird, they're used.
HR is used to looking atsomething in a certain format.
Don't mess with it.
They got three to five seconds toscan your resume and they're gonna
look for the place they're used tolooking for the stuff they wanna see.
Leo Dion (host) (18:06):
Okay.
Let's jump to talking about do youwanna talk about navigating the market
or do you wanna talk about switchingbetween leadership and development?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (18:14):
Yeah.
They're interrelated.
Like last year,
like I had a job.
I saw all this laugh happening.
I looked at kinda my skillset.
I'm like, I've got twoyears of like actual,
literal engineeringmanagement experience.
Even though I ran a softwarecompany, consulting company,
I ran a band, music band.
So I came in pretty highlevel understanding the
(18:36):
role of an engineer manager.
So my equivalent experience isa lot higher than two years, but
that's what it's on my resume.
And if you're applyingand they don't know you.
That's what they're gonna look at.
So I was kinda like looking at myskillset and if something happens,
like my engineering skills are gonnabe the most portable, that's gonna
help me get the next job more likelythan the engineering management,
(18:59):
at least until the market improves.
Once the market improves, thenyou can do a lot of things.
'cause I had a lot of interest in myresume for engineering management three
years ago, where now it's, those are.
Really tough to get.
A lot of the layoffs in theindustry, that was the managers,
the directors, so middle managementflattening has been the trend.
Leo Dion (host) (19:19):
I was gonna ask about that.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (19:21):
any engineering manager engineering manager role that's
open, kind, have way more applicantsthan they would've, a couple years ago.
And the people that have been doingit for, five, 10 years, a lot of times
they're pretty big name companies.
So I kinda knew that just by myresume, I wasn't gonna stand out.
And I'm getting in the loopfor some of those roles.
But realistically, like the engineeringskills are probably gonna make my
(19:45):
kind of make the next move happen.
That's not a step back in mybook one blog post I read.
Years ago charity Majors wrote ablog post on the pendulum theory that
says the most effective engineershave spent time in management.
The best managers aren't morethan three years removed from
hands-on work, to paraphrase.
So she recommended going back and forth,go into leadership a little bit, come
(20:09):
back sharp, sharpen up your tech skills.
That works for me 'cause Iget bored doing one thing.
For two to three years, so getting achange of pace is works great for me.
Leo Dion (host) (20:19):
When you say manager, I mean there's a lot of
different kinds of managers, likeproject manager or product manager
or just like a boss, so to speak.
Like what kind of manager roledo you think is more apt for
somebody who's in engineering?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (20:37):
Yeah, typ, the typical path is, most people listening
to this are iOS engineers, mobileengineers of some sort, hands-on skills.
Typically you go into engineeringmanagement product management,
totally different thing.
There are a lot of engineersthat go into product management.
That's where you're managing a product,not people necessarily, at least, and
(20:58):
a lot of engineers go into productproject management, program management.
That's more, that's adifferent thing altogether.
That's making sure projects and thingsbigger than one project moves smoothly.
But typically the engineering pathis to, for, seed engineer if they've
got a good reputation at the company.
People like them, likeworking with them.
(21:19):
They know the tech stack.
They know the main, they're agood fit to go into management.
Typically, that's how peopleget their first cha chance
at engineering management.
So at that point you're leadingteam, like they report to you.
You have to go into work, you have to gointo Workday to manage a bunch of stuff.
That's why the managersdon't like Workday either,
because it's just it's rough.
Leo Dion (host) (21:40):
One, one thing, I forgot which episode it was, but we
had talked about management and oneof the things that I do and I've
learned as I've grown more mature is,
The thing about being a manageris as like a developer who,
especially somebody who'sindie like myself, it's like
I
I,
can't get everything I
want done.
(22:00):
I need to get somebody to help
me.
And I end up getting, I end upbecoming a manager because I
have a couple of people who are helpingme on certain products or projects that
I'm working on.
And that's where I've
seen like the manager be
A.
Not augmenting, but just being ableto like multiply yourself and the
work that you do, if that makes sense.
(22:23):
And I think that's where the managerskill is really helpful because if
you do it all by yourself, you'rejust not gonna get as much done.
But if you have two or threeother people doing it with you and
you're managing them and breakingthings into tests, knowing how to
organize stuff, I think that's.
That's where becoming a manager,that's where it clicked with me,
where like becoming a manager isjust being a, an engineer who can
(22:44):
multiply themselves so to speak.
Does that make sense?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (22:47):
I think so.
Yeah, if I looked throughout mycareer, like at least the first
decade, like I saw what my managersdid and I didn't wanna do it.
I was like, I don't wanna do this.
They just go to meetings.
They had to do a bunch of paperwork.
I didn't wanna do it.
But I think like you said,I got frustrated with poor
management or just mismanagement.
It's if I could have done that, I couldhave avoided a lot of these pain points
(23:10):
that we face, that the team is facing.
So just let me handle that.
I can do it.
I did that.
I don't necessarily wanna do it,but I'll, I'm happy to do it just
to make everyone else's life easier.
So I think just, yeah, I think thechallenge is like scaling yourself,
just like help instead of makingyourself an effective member of the
team, making an effective team ormaking an effective organization
(23:33):
where everyone's working together.
Leo Dion (host) (23:35):
Yeah.
I think of it as from theindie perspective where I'm
pretty much directing myself ineverything I do to where it's
like I, you get to a point in yourcareer where you realize you're not
gonna get any faster at coding, I.
You're people are like, oh, like Igot like this product done in a week.
And then you realize, they didn'tadd any tests and it barely works.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (23:54):
Right.
Leo Dion (host) (23:55):
if you do one right, but they're so proud of
how fast they are and you realizebeing fast is in everything.
And that if you want to get more done,you just need more people and you need
to manage them and teach them and so on.
That's just what has been myrevelation over the last year.
Do you, I think one of the thingsthat somebody might say is Ugh,
I don't wanna manage, 'cause Idon't want to deal with somebody
(24:15):
above me basically pushing me to dothings that I don't think I can do.
An executive is we gotta getthis done in a week, get it done.
And it's yeah, if we dothat, it's gonna break.
That kind of stuff whereyou're just like having to
deal with that kind of crap.
What do you do, what do yousay to somebody like that?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:34):
But that's at every level, right?
You could be a
Leo Dion (host) (24:36):
That's what I
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:37):
you could be a mid-level engineer and they're like,
you need to get this done in two days.
Leo Dion (host) (24:41):
Yeah.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:42):
So if you're, the higher your level, the more skin
you have in the game to push back.
But.
You have to be smart about itand talk in the type of, with the
type of values that the peopleabove you, your manager, director,
vice president, can understand.
If we get this done, we're gonnaburn the team out and we're
(25:02):
not gonna be able to do thethings for the next six months.
But there's gonna be, we can'tdo it with the quality that we
have, that you, an enlightenedview is like you have to.
Think of the long term benefitsto the team, to the company.
If you burn your team out,you really suffer with bugs.
Is that worth getting that out?
Sometimes yes.
Sometimes it makes sense to, tocrunch something out there for
(25:24):
the business, especially thestartup, dates are important.
But if you burn your team out, thenthey can't continue to iterate on
the things that you want them to do.
So you have to make sure thatyou're presenting all the
terms in the things that.
The people at every level value
Leo Dion (host) (25:39):
Yeah.
Yep.
So let's talk about what are,can you think of any specific
benefits to each of these tracks?
And why you may not want to stay inone long, too long, if that makes
Jaim Zuber (guest) (25:53):
Yeah.
You mean like justengineering versus management.
upper
Leo Dion (host) (25:56):
Yeah,
exactly.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (25:57):
I think I've.
Seen enough where Ican make calls on that.
If you don't wanna dealwith stuff outside of your
team as much, you can be a
senior engineer, you can be aworker bee, crank out features,
functionality and do that,that's fine for a lot of people.
I, you don't really needto go beyond that to have a
good career.
I got to the point where I got bored
(26:19):
just cranking out tableviews year after year,
Leo Dion (host) (26:21):
is that what it was?
It was cranky out table
views.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:24):
more to it than that, but okay, we need
to, we need another screen here.
Here's another table view.
I've been doing this for 10 years.
I can still do it.
Even with Swift ui
Leo Dion (host) (26:33):
UI just
did not
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:35):
No
Leo Dion (host) (26:35):
come in soon enough.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:36):
I, no, not so much that, but just
okay, I can learn Swift ui.
Here's another way to do thesame thing we've been doing for,
20 years.
Like I started doing Windows apps.
Day, embedded stuff,windows, apps, some Mac.
But so you can do that.
That's a, it's a good career.
But like you're just downstreamfrom all the decisions that
get made in the company.
And that got frustrating for me.
(26:57):
'cause I could have prevented theseheadaches that we're all having
right now had I been in the roomor they're making these calls, so
maybe you could be a tech lead.
They can be a tech lead managerwhere you're a little hands on.
Working more closely with peopleoutside of the team, with product
management, backend web teams that'salso, you're still pretty hands on.
(27:19):
Your time is less spent hands on
coding.
You can, you're directing thingsyou're, mentoring, things like that.
And that's a also a greatway to spend a career.
You don't have to go beyondthat if you like doing it.
It you can do it.
So management is atotally different thing.
You have a totally different schedule.
Like you barely have any timeto write code, and you shouldn't
be writing a lot of code.
Leo Dion (host) (27:40):
Okay.
Okay.
I was gonna ask that.
Do you think that a managershould never write code?
That's one of the big questions.
Jaim Zuber (guest): definitely I didn't say never. (27:45):
undefined
You shouldn't be writing a lotof code and you shouldn't be
in the critical path.
Because you're gonna getdistracted 10 times today.
So if you need to, if you needto get this feature out so the
rest of the team can do theirwork, you're the bottleneck.
Leo Dion (host) (28:02):
I think a little bit of code and a little bit of
PR review and code review wouldbe good just to keep yourself
knowledgeable about what is going onunderneath and keeping quality good.
Otherwise, yeah, I wouldn'tassign somebody I wouldn't assign
a manager to a feature per se,unless you absolutely had to.
(28:22):
you
know what I
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:23):
Yeah.
Leo Dion (host) (28:23):
that sound about right?
Do you
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:24):
No, I agree.
I agree with that.
I think,
Leo Dion (host) (28:26):
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:28):
yeah, even I, my title is director, had managers warning
to me and also engineers sent LED team.
So I still was reviewing code.
I was in charge of making sure thearchitecture was what we wanted.
Even if I wasn't the person, Iwasn't dictating everything, I was
letting the team make the calls.
I would ask the right questions tomake sure that they understood the
(28:50):
priorities that they needed to consider.
Yeah.
But they kinda like this is but yeah,
one of the most important lessonsyou have to learn if you're a manager
is you can't dictate everything.
That's recipe for failure.
The absolute worst managersyou've ever worked for, try to
be the tech lead as the manager.
'cause you can't justtell everyone what to do.
They need to figurethings out on their own.
(29:11):
Even if it's not exactly what you'd havedone, like maybe my solution was 80% of
the right solution and their's is 70%.
Like you'd let 'em run with it.
'cause lets us move forward.
They're bought into it, so ifsomething goes wrong, it's okay that
they own it versus I told 'em to
do it.
Leo Dion (host) (29:28):
know how it
works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (29:30):
so that was one thing I had to
let go on.
Like not everything was gonnabe as perfect as it would've
been if I would've done it.
But I think overall weall move faster, and
ultimately the managersmake sure that everything.
Is appropriate level, quality,test coverage, all those things.
But not every one thing has to be
optimized, like theway I would've done it,
Leo Dion (host) (29:49):
Yeah, totally.
100%.
What have you been working on lately?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (29:53):
Yeah.
I.
Given I got the notice I wasgonna get laid off in February,
Looked at my skill set of man, Ineed to catch up on Swift y 'cause we
weren't doing that much with my, wehad a little bit proof of concept here
and there, but we weren't h heavy withit, so I need to catch up on that.
So we'd wrap it up with Swift uihelped worked with a company, helped
(30:14):
them with their hiring the loop.
So like the first half of thisyear, I was still a hiring manager.
I was like hiring people.
And the second half, I'm the job seeker.
That's how it goes sometimes,but had a little break, so
that ended earlier this year.
So I'm in job seeking mode.
I've been writing.
So, digging into swift concurrency.
I got a chance to work withit with my last client.
So they had started using kindathe tasks and ay, a weight, a
(30:38):
asynchronous coating with Swift.
So got a
chance
to actors got a chanceto dig into all that.
So I've been going through
that
Leo Dion (host) (30:46):
Swift six or still Swift
five.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (30:49):
so that was,
That was still Swift five.
'cause
EXCO 16 was not out yet.
But I got a chance to work with,
The different, the tasks
and kind of actors, things
like that.
Got my foot with that.
And I, at the time, I was
like, oh no, I'm so far behind.
I've been away from Crow for two years.
I'm done.
I don't know, I'm completely lost.
And I looked every I went to
(31:09):
one more thing, conf and
Cupertino, and I realizedyeah, no one's doing this
yet.
I was like, okay.
Whew.
Okay, good.
I was like, I'm so far behind.
I'm done.
Stick a fork of me, but no one's doing.
Leo Dion (host) (31:20):
a, it's really big challenge.
I've seen that a,
lot lately.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:24):
Yeah, it's a,
Leo Dion (host) (31:24):
My head has been totally into it especially the
swift six stuff with ay weight.
and like when I talk to otherpeople, they're just like, oh my
gosh, it's so hard and so difficult.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:36):
Yeah it's, a mind though.
It took me a little bit time toget used to it now, like I love
it.
I think it's, I
think it's, I think it's huge.
I think it's especially for big teams.
If you're a lead engineer or staff
Leo Dion (host) (31:47):
Have you done anything with Swift six and Async Coate?
'cause it's a lot more strict
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:52):
You could always turn on the strict checking in
Leo Dion (host) (31:55):
right?
I know.
Oh I know
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:56):
Okay.
Oh
Leo Dion (host) (31:57):
a glutton for punishment,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:58):
yeah.
So we were always
turning it on, turning itoff to see where we're at.
I'm at the, I'm at the point where.
Yeah I have no problembuilding an app in Swift six.
It's,
largely a lot of the stuff that our,we always should have been doing.
Like use struc instead of classes,make things stateless that you
can just pass around that no one
cares what thread they're operating on.
(32:21):
So, yeah, I'm a big fan, especiallyfor as like a staff type role where.
You probably can't review everyline of code that comes through your
code base.
If you get a big NF team,swift concurrency allows us to
do that, checking at compile
time.
A lot of those
Leo Dion (host) (32:38):
Yes.
Jaim Zuber (guest): A lot of those 'cause (32:38):
undefined
Classic iPhone development,you just throw off a, async,
Block whatever youwant to, and it's fine.
Nothing really bad happens untila lot of people start doing it.
And then things start crashing and
Leo Dion (host) (32:51):
It extends the sort of I don't know if you remember when we had
the transition to Swift, but like peoplewere pissed about how like optional or
int and double and all these types hadto be the type that they actually were.
Whereas an objective C,everything was loose goosey.
And so people were pissed becauseit's God, I gotta convert this
(33:12):
decimal point number to that end,and I've gotta do it all manually.
And I feel like that's essentiallywhat Swift six is with concurrency.
It's no, you have to make sure that.
You don't change a thing unlessit's, if it's sendible, you gotta do
it properly, or you have to have anactor to make sure that two things
don't come in and you have a racecondition and all this kind of stuff.
(33:34):
It's like introducing that safetywhen it comes to concurrency,
which I think is really fantastic.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:39):
Yep.
Yeah, I agree.
And yeah, the type stuff in Swift isa little bit ugly, but at least you're
being explicit about what's happening,which I think is just valuable.
Leo Dion (host) (33:48):
It's safer.
I think too especially optionals,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:52):
Yeah, that
Leo Dion (host) (33:52):
I still don't, I still, when I have to go back into
Objective C code I'm not happyabout having to deal with that.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:59):
Where's my flett?
Where's my flett?
I just wanna, I wannaguard this, please.
Leo Dion (host) (34:04):
yeah because every, everything is optional
and objective, so it's
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:06):
but I agree with your analogy, but if you're working
with the legacy code base that'sbeen around for five, 10 years, like
it's, could be, it'sgonna be really hard to
Leo Dion (host) (34:15):
No don't go.
Don't go to strict build.
Maybe your new libraries or yournew frameworks strict, but don't.
Migrate your old code.
We could talk about migratingold code until the day's done.
There would not be a shortpodcast episode 'cause there's
so many things about it.
I'll link a art.
So I have a couple articlesI'll link in the show notes.
(34:36):
One to migrating.
And then I did a sort of very basichow to migrate Swift six besides
the excellent one that Hollyand Matt did on the Apple site.
But I have a very basic one forbeginners if they're interested.
Do you miss GCD?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:52):
I still like it.
I think it's the.
Leo Dion (host) (34:55):
Why?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:56):
What's that?
I'm glut for punishment 'cause Idug in and got to know it so well
Leo Dion (host) (35:00):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:02):
and
I
think not every scenariois gonna be covered
by structured concurrency.
I think we're, it's a swiftUI versus c UI kit where if
you stay in the lane with
Swift UI you're fineand it's getting better.
But if you got reallycustom things like you
you're probably just better
off.
Leo Dion (host) (35:18):
Tune into our previous episode with Ben if you want
to do
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:21):
I listened to It it was great.
That was great stuff.
It's yeah, if you wanna doreally custom things, it's
gonna, it's gonna be painful.
If you stay in your lane, you're fine.
And
But if you wanna do like some esotericthings with concurrency and threading,
Leo Dion (host) (35:35):
Pull to refresh.
Yeah.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:37):
GCD is, it's still there been.
It's been powerful.
Leo Dion (host) (35:42):
Was there anything else you wanted to
talk about before we close out?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:45):
think I think that's pretty good.
So I'll throw a couple links to some,like some of the books that help me
understand the role of an engineeringmanager and engineering leader.
Like manager's path from Camille, er,resilient Management, Laura Hogan.
Those are both excellent.
If you have any interestin being a manager or in
leadership, buy those books.
Read them.
Even if you don't, you'll atleast understand the role.
(36:09):
Like you'll understand whatyour boss is doing, what they're
supposed to be doing, what yourdirector is supposed to be doing.
Like manager's path talks about thewhole stick up to CTO vp, it's I didn't
really know what a VP did until I was adirector and I interacted with the vp.
Now I know.
Okay.
But just going through thatbook just under kinda helps you
understand what people above your.
(36:31):
Trying to solve so you can help
them do their thing.
Make yourself look good.
Everybody wins.
Leo Dion (host) (36:37):
Jaim, thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you for being my Guinea pig.
First episode in the new house.
We learned the importance of directlyhooking up a webcam to a Mac studio
instead of going through a hub.
So that's been fantastic.
We've been good for the last half hour.
Jaim, where couldpeople find you online?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (36:56):
So Jaim er.com is where I'm doing most of my writing.
I'm on, I'm My Mastodon.
That's really the onlyplace I really post.
You can find me there.
I'll put a link in the notes.
Leo Dion (host) (37:07):
Awesome people should check out our latest newsletters.
I just posted newsletter 1 0 1 onmy experience at Server Side Swift.
Check that out.
Check out my link to my talk Idid in London, which was awesome.
It was great to see everybody there,Aaron, and talk about fitness working
out in server side, swift and gb.
So a lot of great forthe latest newsletter.
(37:29):
Check that out.
If you have any more questionsabout resumes, hiring, any of that
stuff, reach out to me on Twitteror email or whatever you have.
Twitter at Leo Dion and MAsit on at Leo Dion at c Im
bright digit.com is my website.
Thank you so much for joiningme, and I look forward to talking
(37:50):
to you in the next episode.
Bye everybody.
Hey everybody.
(00:00):
Before we begin, I have a fewthings I wanted to announce.
As you can see, if you're watchingthis on YouTube or maybe you're
listening to this on your podcastplayer, this is the first episode
in my brand new office studio.
At the time of the recordingthis episode with Jaim, it
was still getting set up.
So I apologize for some issueswith the audio in that episode.
Regardless, the contact is fantastic,so definitely check that out.
(00:24):
I'm pretty much, I just need toset up a green screen, so hopefully
in the next few episodes you'llsee that up in my announcements.
Next I wanted to say that ifyou're not subscribed to the
Bright Digit newsletter, youshould there's some really cool
new newsletters that came out.
Issued 100 went over our toparticles, so that if you're gonna
get started, that's a great oneto get started with to see some of
(00:47):
the cool stuff that we've put out.
And then issue number 1 0 1.
Was about my trip to London andthe server side server side,
SWIFT conference, and some ofthe great talks that were there.
We have videos links to all the videosof all the talks, including mine.
So if you wanna know how thatwent you'll definitely wanna check
both of those out and subscribeto the Bright Digit newsletter.
(01:09):
Next.
I'm still looking for folkswho are interested in.
Beta testing bushel bushel two.
I'm hoping to come at copingto release by the end of the
year which will be just in timefor the one year anniversary.
I'm really if you're interestedin the development and how that's
going, you should subscribe to theYouTube channel because I've been live
(01:29):
streaming every 9:00 AM on Tuesday.
My time zone, E-D-T-E-S-T depending onwhether this is before November or not.
And yeah, just go to get bushel.com.
I'm adding in a screen recording andsome stuff there for folks to be able
to record the work that they're doing ontheir VM and take screenshots and stuff.
(01:49):
So definitely check that out.
And lastly we have a Patreon.
If you are really enjoying my content,I would appreciate your support.
It'd be greatly appreciated.
I released these episodeson cut early on there.
I might put out some drafts of contentthat I'm working on, things like that.
So definitely check that out as well.
(02:12):
Patreon.com/bright digit.
All the links will be in theshow notes, and that's about it.
Thank you.
Have a good rest of yourday and enjoy this episode,
Welcome to anotherepisode at Empower Apps.
I'm your host Leo Dion,back from five years ago.
We have Jaim Zuber
(02:32):
from episode 11.
Jaim, thank you so muchfor coming back on.
It's been a while.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (02:37):
Yeah, probably five, five years or so but yeah, glad to be
back and I've been enjoying all thestuff you've been posting since then.
Leo Dion (host) (02:43):
Thank you.
So for
those who don't remember episode 11,could you go ahead, introduce yourself?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (02:50):
Yeah, so my name's Jaim Zuber.
I've been working on Appleplatforms almost exclusively, not
entirely for, the past 14 years.
Started,
Maybe 2011, mostly iOS, a little bitof Mac here and there as needed, but
a lot of that was as a consultant.
So I was doing independent work, gota chance to work with some really
cool apps, especially, in the 2010s.
(03:11):
Over the past threeyears, I switched gears.
I took a
leadership role, so I was a directorof engineering for a digital bank.
Did that, enjoyed it, so I didit with kinda a manager slash
director slash principal engineer.
Enjoyed it, but that endedearlier this year doing layoffs.
That's a.
A pretty common trend throughout theindustry of people just being laid off.
That, that's it in everyone.
Yeah, I got back to consulting alittle more hands-on work enjoying it.
(03:35):
Being able to
write code every day.
So I'm doing that now and kindlooking for work, looking for a
full-time job while doing consulting
work.
And that kind of brings us up into ourtopic, which we're gonna talk about.
How do you
navigate, this job market, which is
unlike.
Most of us have ever seen.
Leo Dion (host) (03:52):
Yeah, and I've been doing this for 25 years now, and.
I've been through recessions, butnothing like this where it's not
really a recession, but tech has beenhard, parti hit particularly poorly.
Just kinda what's your thoughtson what, what's changed?
Why is it different this time?
(04:13):
What, like what areyou finding out there?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (04:16):
Yeah, what's different is we had a
gold rush for years, a decade.
Interest rates were close tozero, so tons of people were
fund pouring money into startups.
Big tech had justinfinite money to spend.
Everyone's hiring.
And like we all benefited from that,
Salaries skyrocketed.
We've all done pretty well in that era.
(04:36):
And that ended interestrates went back up.
We printed a bunch of money duringthe downturn and we're paying
for that down, trying to keep,the, from, macroeconomic forces.
We're trying to keep inflation low,lower, and that's affecting us.
But we've had a great run.
It's just an adjustmentright now where we have to.
A new type of market.
Leo Dion (host) (04:56):
Yeah.
And part of it, I've seen this as faras a homeowner, I've been affected by
the interest rates, So I totally get it.
Just buying a new house and thenalso the fact that I mean it
seems to me like AI has suckedall the oxygen in the room.
As far as like any tech spending thatthere is, it's all going towards,
(05:19):
yeah, basically ai, AI researchpeople think that they're gonna
get a lot of return off of that.
I'm very doubtful that it's going tobe the revolution people think it is.
And I think, yeah, that'smade it really difficult.
On top of that, I've also just seenissues with basically don't know
if it's the term ghost posting,but there's just a ton of posts out
(05:42):
there and there's a ton of peopleapplying and then on top of it
there's just a lot of garbage as far
as job postings are concerned, and soit's like hard to navigate that as well.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (05:55):
That's true.
I think, the jobs are out there.
I think there arecompanies with openings.
It's just very competitive forthe openings that are out there.
And like you said, there are companiesthat just post things to look good.
I.
Or jobs that they don't, they haveno intention of hiring or just
don't quite have the budget yet.
So there, there are a lot ofpostings that aren't real, but I
(06:17):
think the jobs aren't out there.
I think the challenge isit's just super competitive.
There's way more people lookingthan there ever have been before.
There's tons of layoffs in theindustry over the past year or two.
HR was big part of layoffs.
If a company's not gonnaexpand, they got rid of hr.
So we've got a, you've alreadygot, they were already understaffed
(06:37):
for the past year,even if they're hiring.
You got one hr, you got one
HR person.
They're, they were already overworked
and now
they're completely overworkedtrying to hire for this
position, and they've got 200
resumes to look at.
Half are not
real people.
The AI generated or some scam, andthey have, they've got a, they've
got a scan, a resume for five seconds
(06:57):
and figure out if you'rethe right person or not.
It's just that's the game.
That's the game we're in.
Three years ago, my resume would geta return call from like 80, 90% of the
things I sent for, but that would belike lead staff, principal type things.
Typically now it'scloser to 10, maybe 20,
Leo Dion (host) (07:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's talk a little bitabout what you've been doing
to navigate that market ormaybe even pivot in your career
as a lead principal,senior iOS developer.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (07:28):
Yeah let's talk about more
kind of the hands on things you can do.
First thing I did is justtightened up my resume,
Make sure it was likefour or five pages.
It was just long and it worked.
I had no reason to mess with it.
Before, but,
Now you wanna tie it up.
You wanna have the stuff that'sdirectly relevant to the job you're
applying for right at the top.
(07:49):
cause hr, the person scanning
your resume, is gonna look atthe first three below points.
And if it's not a match you're done.
You know you're out they'llnever see you again.
It's important to,
have a resume that's really tunedfor the position you're applying for.
If you're applying for a seniorengineer position, your resumes can.
be very different froman engineering manager.
Or yeah, even a staff or lead engineer.
(08:12):
If you're a, if you're a seniorengineer, mid-level engineer, make
sure your hands-on skills are rightup front, features that you've
worked on, stuff thatyou did, if you're,
if it's a lead, make sure thatleadership's up top, that you've
led teams, things like that.
If your staff principal, makesure that you've been able to
show impact like beyond your team.
Hey, I helped my whole organizationimprove their test coverage or whatever.
(08:36):
We
Leo Dion (host) (08:36):
right,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (08:37):
document improve documentation, which
allowed the teams to move faster.
Things like that.
So I've got a different resumefor each type of role that
I apply for, and I think.
Leo Dion (host) (08:48):
There's just so many positions out there that seems like
a lot of work to have to if I'm gonnaapply to 10 or 20 positions to have
to make 10 or 20 resumes, is there asimpler, more optimal way to do that?
So you can.
Apply to a lot of positions, but thesame time, like not waste time because
like you could end up basically notgoing anywhere with it because, I'd
(09:14):
rather have more applications, moreresumes posted than necessarily
making every single one Perfect.
If that makes sense.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (09:20):
Yeah, you're not gonna rewrite your resume for
every job post that's out there.
That's not something that.
That's really doable.
I've
got, three or four basicstandard ones that I have.
My, if it sounds like a lead engineer,it's one thing if the staff or
principal, it's another, if it's theengineering manager, it's one if it's a
director, 'cause those are all differentthings that you're gonna look for that
(09:41):
So I've got four basic templates thatI use and it's all the same content.
It's just sums higher, some'slower, but I, versus, I, I would
definitely say pick your spotsfor the roles that you apply for.
Look ones that are reallygood fits yep, I am.
I can walk in there with this rightface and say, I'm the exact right
person they wanna hire for this.
(10:03):
Start with those, startwith, and put time in.
I'd say, invest time in it.
If you're looking for work,
you got time.
And looking for work is afull-time job, it's, it.
When you're doing
it, it takes time.
It's draining.
It's not easy.
So I, my approach is like, just pick the
best ones and, but it's alsoimportant use your time wisely,
(10:24):
Say is this type of thing that's gonnaget me to the next phase, maybe not.
And even if I have the perfect resumefor the perfect job, you get bounced,
Leo Dion (host) (10:32):
right.
How, what do you thinkabout cover letters?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (10:36):
I don't have a good answer for that.
One thing, AI can help 'em with that.
That's one thing AI is good for.
You just say.
Leo Dion (host) (10:41):
Yeah I think that's a good point.
It is just cover letter is a littlebit like, to me it'd be like emailing
somebody or messaging somebody inHR at a particular company being,
Hey, I posted here, I'm, I reallyknow a lot about swift concurrency
and migrating to Swift concurrency.
I think I could reallyhelp out your team.
(11:02):
Be very be very specific when you.
In your cover letter or in your contactof that person about why you are a great
fit, show that you actually read therequirements and what they're looking
for, and I think that goes a longway to getting your name out there.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (11:18):
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Definitely have everythingin your cover letter be true.
Even if you can start withAI and I don't really know
if
Leo Dion (host) (11:26):
You could start with ai, but don't let it be
too generic and sound like abunch of nonsense, which can
Jaim Zuber (guest) (11:33):
Oh yeah the HR person, I'm sure they can spot a, an
a AI generated resume right there.
So you have to be able to standbehind everything that's in there.
I told my team would, when I was doing,when I was a director, it would submit
documentation that was AI driven.
I was like, okay, that's okay,but you have to stand behind
everything that's in there.
It,
It's still you submitting iteven to something else wrote it.
(11:55):
It's good.
It's okay for a starting point.
But yeah, don't lean too hard intoit and really, I don't really know.
I have no, I don't know if coverletters are worth it anymore,
pre three years, three years
ago.
Leo Dion (host) (12:07):
to me doesn't necessarily mean cover letter,
like something super fancy.
It just more means like a paragraphor a couple sentences just saying,
Hey, I'm interested in this position.
I saw this this would be great for me.
Here's why you should hire me, and I'veattached my resume and call it good.
I don't know what more a coverletter should be, but I don't think
(12:28):
it needs to be more than that right
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:30):
Yeah, it could be lightweight and three years
ago, I didn't even bother them.
I just set it out thereand I think no one did.
Now it's I don't know, but Idon't have any info to say you
should do a covered letter.
I don't know if any
Leo Dion (host) (12:41):
right,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:41):
I don't know.
If I don't.
If they don't look at the resume, you'redead in the water Anyway I do have,
Leo Dion (host) (12:45):
really good point.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (12:46):
yeah, I do have a summary at the top of my
resume, which is a newer thing.
So it just kinda explains yeah, I'vedone, I've been a manager, I've been a
director, but now I'm trying to be handson, so just a kind of a summary, which
could do some cover letter type things.
So that's one thing I did add to myresume based on some advice that I read.
Leo Dion (host) (13:06):
How many pages is your resume?
How many is too many pages?
I've done a lot, I've done a lot of
work in that time.
How many,
pages should I have?
Like how many pages
is too many?
And how do I like, summarize it insuch a way that somebody's gonna
be interested in it, if that makes
Jaim Zuber (guest) (13:24):
Right.
I, think the standardanswer is you want it?
Add two pages.
I never did this before, likethree years ago when I was looking,
it was like four or five pages.
'cause I've been doing this a long time.
Like you had a lot of coolstuff on there that I had done.
And I figured, and people woulddig into the old stuff, like in an
interview or something they madeoh, I worked with this technology.
(13:46):
Just a way to, connect with your, withthe person who's interviewing you.
But I think nowadays,like HR expects it, to be.
Yep.
Two pages have all the goodstuff right up front, like no
one really cares what you did.
Even five years ago,
It's it's all what have you done lately?
Especially with this parking wherethere's so many resumes out there, like
you wanna make sure everything that'srelevant to this job is right up front.
Leo Dion (host) (14:10):
Yeah, the only thing I can think of is I have this experience.
I know how to learn new things.
I know how to lead a team.
The more abstract stuff I thinkwould be helpful on a resume.
But otherwise, if it's newer technowhere they're just like, I just want
you to make sure you know the latesttechnology, like that's it, then yeah,
it makes total sense to just havethe latest five years of, work that
(14:32):
you've done in Swift ui, for instance.
What do you have any othertips when it comes to resumes
like gotchas or do's or don'ts?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (14:41):
Yeah, not sure.
I would say I'm a
Leo Dion (host) (14:42):
Winds, wind digs is at the preferred font now.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (14:45):
windings.
Yeah, that
that's definitely the way to go.
One tip I did
learn is that I always exported mine
to PDF.
Like some back in the
day, like recruiters would literallychange your resume if you submitted
a word or something like that.
I've had recruiters do that, likesketchy stuff, so I always did.
I always did a PDF.
And if you submit it,it's gonna be harder
(15:07):
for the tracking system toread all the stuff out of
there for your experience.
So you're gonna go thereand fix a bunch of stuff.
So be able to export tolike word format and pages.
Pages
can do that.
So you can do that from your Mac.
Like with everything, but especiallyif anything workday, export it to
the Word document you'll be happier.
Leo Dion (host) (15:25):
So my my anecdote is I recently submitted a marked down resume
in Workday and it was marked as spam.
I now have I'll post a linkto it in the show notes, but
I have a marked down to PDF.
Converter that.
runs a GitHub action.
'cause that's where I had my resume.
(15:46):
So hopefully from now onI won't have that issue.
But yeah, it sucks.
'cause Workday especially, it'sjust not gonna look at it, it's
not gonna check what it looks like.
So you think like a mi you thinkMicrosoft Word is better than PDF?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:01):
Yeah, especially for things where they're scanning
it and trying to get it to yourexperience, like work rate does that.
And
Leo Dion (host) (16:07):
They don't scan PDFs.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:09):
they do, they just make a lot of mistakes.
So I had to go
Leo Dion (host) (16:12):
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:12):
Any like small eye, I had to fix every version of
every time Swift has mentioned myresume, which is everywhere I had
to go and change it that got fixed
when
I,
Leo Dion (host) (16:23):
What, did it do with Swift?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (16:24):
Any like little, I lowercase, I, it just got it wrong.
So any word we thought,okay, I had to go and fix.
Once it's already in there.
So the automatic import worked a lotbetter with Document, with a Word doc.
Workday is a terrible software from thehiring side and from the applicant side.
Just that's
just,
Leo Dion (host) (16:43):
it's what was I gonna say?
And now with these cutHR departments, they just
are gonna totally rely ona piece of crap to do it.
That sucks.
How, what do you think of formatting?
Keep it all one font.
Bold out things that you think aregonna really catch people's eye.
Maybe use headers properly.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:04):
I think all of those things, like I'm not I
wouldn't be the grant expert for
all.
Leo Dion (host) (17:09):
I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Just think of it from the HR personwho's gonna wanna look at this quickly
and just be like, yes, no, and then.
Do you think like links,do you think links work?
Like people will actuallylook at it and be like, yeah,
I wanna pull this up and seewhat they actually did, or,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:27):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't really have any links in mind.
I just know there's a good site I wasgonna, it's in the show notes from.
Gie Roche, who's done a lot ofwriting on the tech industry.
He's got eng, he's gotthe resume template site.
He's got a book on the engineertech, the tech resume, and he
just gives out tons of good advice
Leo Dion (host) (17:47):
we'll put that in the show notes.
So definitely take a
look at
Jaim Zuber (guest) (17:49):
that's in the, that's in the notes.
But yeah, have as much as youcan have a standard format.
Don't get too weird, they're used.
HR is used to looking atsomething in a certain format.
Don't mess with it.
They got three to five seconds toscan your resume and they're gonna
look for the place they're used tolooking for the stuff they wanna see.
Leo Dion (host) (18:06):
Okay.
Let's jump to talking about do youwanna talk about navigating the market
or do you wanna talk about switchingbetween leadership and development?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (18:14):
Yeah.
They're interrelated.
Like last year,
like I had a job.
I saw all this laugh happening.
I looked at kinda my skillset.
I'm like, I've got twoyears of like actual,
literal engineeringmanagement experience.
Even though I ran a softwarecompany, consulting company,
I ran a band, music band.
So I came in pretty highlevel understanding the
(18:36):
role of an engineer manager.
So my equivalent experience isa lot higher than two years, but
that's what it's on my resume.
And if you're applyingand they don't know you.
That's what they're gonna look at.
So I was kinda like looking at myskillset and if something happens,
like my engineering skills are gonnabe the most portable, that's gonna
help me get the next job more likelythan the engineering management,
(18:59):
at least until the market improves.
Once the market improves, thenyou can do a lot of things.
'cause I had a lot of interest in myresume for engineering management three
years ago, where now it's, those are.
Really tough to get.
A lot of the layoffs in theindustry, that was the managers,
the directors, so middle managementflattening has been the trend.
Leo Dion (host) (19:19):
I was gonna ask about that.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (19:21):
any engineering manager engineering manager role that's
open, kind, have way more applicantsthan they would've, a couple years ago.
And the people that have been doingit for, five, 10 years, a lot of times
they're pretty big name companies.
So I kinda knew that just by myresume, I wasn't gonna stand out.
And I'm getting in the loopfor some of those roles.
But realistically, like the engineeringskills are probably gonna make my
(19:45):
kind of make the next move happen.
That's not a step back in mybook one blog post I read.
Years ago charity Majors wrote ablog post on the pendulum theory that
says the most effective engineershave spent time in management.
The best managers aren't morethan three years removed from
hands-on work, to paraphrase.
So she recommended going back and forth,go into leadership a little bit, come
(20:09):
back sharp, sharpen up your tech skills.
That works for me 'cause Iget bored doing one thing.
For two to three years, so getting achange of pace is works great for me.
Leo Dion (host) (20:19):
When you say manager, I mean there's a lot of
different kinds of managers, likeproject manager or product manager
or just like a boss, so to speak.
Like what kind of manager roledo you think is more apt for
somebody who's in engineering?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (20:37):
Yeah, typ, the typical path is, most people listening
to this are iOS engineers, mobileengineers of some sort, hands-on skills.
Typically you go into engineeringmanagement product management,
totally different thing.
There are a lot of engineersthat go into product management.
That's where you're managing a product,not people necessarily, at least, and
(20:58):
a lot of engineers go into productproject management, program management.
That's more, that's adifferent thing altogether.
That's making sure projects and thingsbigger than one project moves smoothly.
But typically the engineering pathis to, for, seed engineer if they've
got a good reputation at the company.
People like them, likeworking with them.
(21:19):
They know the tech stack.
They know the main, they're agood fit to go into management.
Typically, that's how peopleget their first cha chance
at engineering management.
So at that point you're leadingteam, like they report to you.
You have to go into work, you have to gointo Workday to manage a bunch of stuff.
That's why the managersdon't like Workday either,
because it's just it's rough.
Leo Dion (host) (21:40):
One, one thing, I forgot which episode it was, but we
had talked about management and oneof the things that I do and I've
learned as I've grown more mature is,
The thing about being a manageris as like a developer who,
especially somebody who'sindie like myself, it's like
I
I,
can't get everything I
want done.
(22:00):
I need to get somebody to help
me.
And I end up getting, I end upbecoming a manager because I
have a couple of people who are helpingme on certain products or projects that
I'm working on.
And that's where I've
seen like the manager be
A.
Not augmenting, but just being ableto like multiply yourself and the
work that you do, if that makes sense.
(22:23):
And I think that's where the managerskill is really helpful because if
you do it all by yourself, you'rejust not gonna get as much done.
But if you have two or threeother people doing it with you and
you're managing them and breakingthings into tests, knowing how to
organize stuff, I think that's.
That's where becoming a manager,that's where it clicked with me,
where like becoming a manager isjust being a, an engineer who can
(22:44):
multiply themselves so to speak.
Does that make sense?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (22:47):
I think so.
Yeah, if I looked throughout mycareer, like at least the first
decade, like I saw what my managersdid and I didn't wanna do it.
I was like, I don't wanna do this.
They just go to meetings.
They had to do a bunch of paperwork.
I didn't wanna do it.
But I think like you said,I got frustrated with poor
management or just mismanagement.
It's if I could have done that, I couldhave avoided a lot of these pain points
(23:10):
that we face, that the team is facing.
So just let me handle that.
I can do it.
I did that.
I don't necessarily wanna do it,but I'll, I'm happy to do it just
to make everyone else's life easier.
So I think just, yeah, I think thechallenge is like scaling yourself,
just like help instead of makingyourself an effective member of the
team, making an effective team ormaking an effective organization
(23:33):
where everyone's working together.
Leo Dion (host) (23:35):
Yeah.
I think of it as from theindie perspective where I'm
pretty much directing myself ineverything I do to where it's
like I, you get to a point in yourcareer where you realize you're not
gonna get any faster at coding, I.
You're people are like, oh, like Igot like this product done in a week.
And then you realize, they didn'tadd any tests and it barely works.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (23:54):
Right.
Leo Dion (host) (23:55):
if you do one right, but they're so proud of
how fast they are and you realizebeing fast is in everything.
And that if you want to get more done,you just need more people and you need
to manage them and teach them and so on.
That's just what has been myrevelation over the last year.
Do you, I think one of the thingsthat somebody might say is Ugh,
I don't wanna manage, 'cause Idon't want to deal with somebody
(24:15):
above me basically pushing me to dothings that I don't think I can do.
An executive is we gotta getthis done in a week, get it done.
And it's yeah, if we dothat, it's gonna break.
That kind of stuff whereyou're just like having to
deal with that kind of crap.
What do you do, what do yousay to somebody like that?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:34):
But that's at every level, right?
You could be a
Leo Dion (host) (24:36):
That's what I
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:37):
you could be a mid-level engineer and they're like,
you need to get this done in two days.
Leo Dion (host) (24:41):
Yeah.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (24:42):
So if you're, the higher your level, the more skin
you have in the game to push back.
But.
You have to be smart about itand talk in the type of, with the
type of values that the peopleabove you, your manager, director,
vice president, can understand.
If we get this done, we're gonnaburn the team out and we're
(25:02):
not gonna be able to do thethings for the next six months.
But there's gonna be, we can'tdo it with the quality that we
have, that you, an enlightenedview is like you have to.
Think of the long term benefitsto the team, to the company.
If you burn your team out,you really suffer with bugs.
Is that worth getting that out?
Sometimes yes.
Sometimes it makes sense to, tocrunch something out there for
(25:24):
the business, especially thestartup, dates are important.
But if you burn your team out, thenthey can't continue to iterate on
the things that you want them to do.
So you have to make sure thatyou're presenting all the
terms in the things that.
The people at every level value
Leo Dion (host) (25:39):
Yeah.
Yep.
So let's talk about what are,can you think of any specific
benefits to each of these tracks?
And why you may not want to stay inone long, too long, if that makes
Jaim Zuber (guest) (25:53):
Yeah.
You mean like justengineering versus management.
upper
Leo Dion (host) (25:56):
Yeah,
exactly.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (25:57):
I think I've.
Seen enough where Ican make calls on that.
If you don't wanna dealwith stuff outside of your
team as much, you can be a
senior engineer, you can be aworker bee, crank out features,
functionality and do that,that's fine for a lot of people.
I, you don't really needto go beyond that to have a
good career.
I got to the point where I got bored
(26:19):
just cranking out tableviews year after year,
Leo Dion (host) (26:21):
is that what it was?
It was cranky out table
views.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:24):
more to it than that, but okay, we need
to, we need another screen here.
Here's another table view.
I've been doing this for 10 years.
I can still do it.
Even with Swift ui
Leo Dion (host) (26:33):
UI just
did not
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:35):
No
Leo Dion (host) (26:35):
come in soon enough.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (26:36):
I, no, not so much that, but just
okay, I can learn Swift ui.
Here's another way to do thesame thing we've been doing for,
20 years.
Like I started doing Windows apps.
Day, embedded stuff,windows, apps, some Mac.
But so you can do that.
That's a, it's a good career.
But like you're just downstreamfrom all the decisions that
get made in the company.
And that got frustrating for me.
(26:57):
'cause I could have prevented theseheadaches that we're all having
right now had I been in the roomor they're making these calls, so
maybe you could be a tech lead.
They can be a tech lead managerwhere you're a little hands on.
Working more closely with peopleoutside of the team, with product
management, backend web teams that'salso, you're still pretty hands on.
(27:19):
Your time is less spent hands on
coding.
You can, you're directing thingsyou're, mentoring, things like that.
And that's a also a greatway to spend a career.
You don't have to go beyondthat if you like doing it.
It you can do it.
So management is atotally different thing.
You have a totally different schedule.
Like you barely have any timeto write code, and you shouldn't
be writing a lot of code.
Leo Dion (host) (27:40):
Okay.
Okay.
I was gonna ask that.
Do you think that a managershould never write code?
That's one of the big questions.
Jaim Zuber (guest): definitely I didn't say never. (27:45):
undefined
You shouldn't be writing a lotof code and you shouldn't be
in the critical path.
Because you're gonna getdistracted 10 times today.
So if you need to, if you needto get this feature out so the
rest of the team can do theirwork, you're the bottleneck.
Leo Dion (host) (28:02):
I think a little bit of code and a little bit of
PR review and code review wouldbe good just to keep yourself
knowledgeable about what is going onunderneath and keeping quality good.
Otherwise, yeah, I wouldn'tassign somebody I wouldn't assign
a manager to a feature per se,unless you absolutely had to.
(28:22):
you
know what I
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:23):
Yeah.
Leo Dion (host) (28:23):
that sound about right?
Do you
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:24):
No, I agree.
I agree with that.
I think,
Leo Dion (host) (28:26):
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (28:28):
yeah, even I, my title is director, had managers warning
to me and also engineers sent LED team.
So I still was reviewing code.
I was in charge of making sure thearchitecture was what we wanted.
Even if I wasn't the person, Iwasn't dictating everything, I was
letting the team make the calls.
I would ask the right questions tomake sure that they understood the
(28:50):
priorities that they needed to consider.
Yeah.
But they kinda like this is but yeah,
one of the most important lessonsyou have to learn if you're a manager
is you can't dictate everything.
That's recipe for failure.
The absolute worst managersyou've ever worked for, try to
be the tech lead as the manager.
'cause you can't justtell everyone what to do.
They need to figurethings out on their own.
(29:11):
Even if it's not exactly what you'd havedone, like maybe my solution was 80% of
the right solution and their's is 70%.
Like you'd let 'em run with it.
'cause lets us move forward.
They're bought into it, so ifsomething goes wrong, it's okay that
they own it versus I told 'em to
do it.
Leo Dion (host) (29:28):
know how it
works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (29:30):
so that was one thing I had to
let go on.
Like not everything was gonnabe as perfect as it would've
been if I would've done it.
But I think overall weall move faster, and
ultimately the managersmake sure that everything.
Is appropriate level, quality,test coverage, all those things.
But not every one thing has to be
optimized, like theway I would've done it,
Leo Dion (host) (29:49):
Yeah, totally.
100%.
What have you been working on lately?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (29:53):
Yeah.
I.
Given I got the notice I wasgonna get laid off in February,
Looked at my skill set of man, Ineed to catch up on Swift y 'cause we
weren't doing that much with my, wehad a little bit proof of concept here
and there, but we weren't h heavy withit, so I need to catch up on that.
So we'd wrap it up with Swift uihelped worked with a company, helped
(30:14):
them with their hiring the loop.
So like the first half of thisyear, I was still a hiring manager.
I was like hiring people.
And the second half, I'm the job seeker.
That's how it goes sometimes,but had a little break, so
that ended earlier this year.
So I'm in job seeking mode.
I've been writing.
So, digging into swift concurrency.
I got a chance to work withit with my last client.
So they had started using kindathe tasks and ay, a weight, a
(30:38):
asynchronous coating with Swift.
So got a
chance
to actors got a chanceto dig into all that.
So I've been going through
that
Leo Dion (host) (30:46):
Swift six or still Swift
five.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (30:49):
so that was,
That was still Swift five.
'cause
EXCO 16 was not out yet.
But I got a chance to work with,
The different, the tasks
and kind of actors, things
like that.
Got my foot with that.
And I, at the time, I was
like, oh no, I'm so far behind.
I've been away from Crow for two years.
I'm done.
I don't know, I'm completely lost.
And I looked every I went to
(31:09):
one more thing, conf and
Cupertino, and I realizedyeah, no one's doing this
yet.
I was like, okay.
Whew.
Okay, good.
I was like, I'm so far behind.
I'm done.
Stick a fork of me, but no one's doing.
Leo Dion (host) (31:20):
a, it's really big challenge.
I've seen that a,
lot lately.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:24):
Yeah, it's a,
Leo Dion (host) (31:24):
My head has been totally into it especially the
swift six stuff with ay weight.
and like when I talk to otherpeople, they're just like, oh my
gosh, it's so hard and so difficult.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:36):
Yeah it's, a mind though.
It took me a little bit time toget used to it now, like I love
it.
I think it's, I
think it's, I think it's huge.
I think it's especially for big teams.
If you're a lead engineer or staff
Leo Dion (host) (31:47):
Have you done anything with Swift six and Async Coate?
'cause it's a lot more strict
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:52):
You could always turn on the strict checking in
Leo Dion (host) (31:55):
right?
I know.
Oh I know
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:56):
Okay.
Oh
Leo Dion (host) (31:57):
a glutton for punishment,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (31:58):
yeah.
So we were always
turning it on, turning itoff to see where we're at.
I'm at the, I'm at the point where.
Yeah I have no problembuilding an app in Swift six.
It's,
largely a lot of the stuff that our,we always should have been doing.
Like use struc instead of classes,make things stateless that you
can just pass around that no one
cares what thread they're operating on.
(32:21):
So, yeah, I'm a big fan, especiallyfor as like a staff type role where.
You probably can't review everyline of code that comes through your
code base.
If you get a big NF team,swift concurrency allows us to
do that, checking at compile
time.
A lot of those
Leo Dion (host) (32:38):
Yes.
Jaim Zuber (guest): A lot of those 'cause (32:38):
undefined
Classic iPhone development,you just throw off a, async,
Block whatever youwant to, and it's fine.
Nothing really bad happens untila lot of people start doing it.
And then things start crashing and
Leo Dion (host) (32:51):
It extends the sort of I don't know if you remember when we had
the transition to Swift, but like peoplewere pissed about how like optional or
int and double and all these types hadto be the type that they actually were.
Whereas an objective C,everything was loose goosey.
And so people were pissed becauseit's God, I gotta convert this
(33:12):
decimal point number to that end,and I've gotta do it all manually.
And I feel like that's essentiallywhat Swift six is with concurrency.
It's no, you have to make sure that.
You don't change a thing unlessit's, if it's sendible, you gotta do
it properly, or you have to have anactor to make sure that two things
don't come in and you have a racecondition and all this kind of stuff.
(33:34):
It's like introducing that safetywhen it comes to concurrency,
which I think is really fantastic.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:39):
Yep.
Yeah, I agree.
And yeah, the type stuff in Swift isa little bit ugly, but at least you're
being explicit about what's happening,which I think is just valuable.
Leo Dion (host) (33:48):
It's safer.
I think too especially optionals,
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:52):
Yeah, that
Leo Dion (host) (33:52):
I still don't, I still, when I have to go back into
Objective C code I'm not happyabout having to deal with that.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (33:59):
Where's my flett?
Where's my flett?
I just wanna, I wannaguard this, please.
Leo Dion (host) (34:04):
yeah because every, everything is optional
and objective, so it's
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:06):
but I agree with your analogy, but if you're working
with the legacy code base that'sbeen around for five, 10 years, like
it's, could be, it'sgonna be really hard to
Leo Dion (host) (34:15):
No don't go.
Don't go to strict build.
Maybe your new libraries or yournew frameworks strict, but don't.
Migrate your old code.
We could talk about migratingold code until the day's done.
There would not be a shortpodcast episode 'cause there's
so many things about it.
I'll link a art.
So I have a couple articlesI'll link in the show notes.
(34:36):
One to migrating.
And then I did a sort of very basichow to migrate Swift six besides
the excellent one that Hollyand Matt did on the Apple site.
But I have a very basic one forbeginners if they're interested.
Do you miss GCD?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:52):
I still like it.
I think it's the.
Leo Dion (host) (34:55):
Why?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (34:56):
What's that?
I'm glut for punishment 'cause Idug in and got to know it so well
Leo Dion (host) (35:00):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:02):
and
I
think not every scenariois gonna be covered
by structured concurrency.
I think we're, it's a swiftUI versus c UI kit where if
you stay in the lane with
Swift UI you're fineand it's getting better.
But if you got reallycustom things like you
you're probably just better
off.
Leo Dion (host) (35:18):
Tune into our previous episode with Ben if you want
to do
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:21):
I listened to It it was great.
That was great stuff.
It's yeah, if you wanna doreally custom things, it's
gonna, it's gonna be painful.
If you stay in your lane, you're fine.
And
But if you wanna do like some esotericthings with concurrency and threading,
Leo Dion (host) (35:35):
Pull to refresh.
Yeah.
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:37):
GCD is, it's still there been.
It's been powerful.
Leo Dion (host) (35:42):
Was there anything else you wanted to
talk about before we close out?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (35:45):
think I think that's pretty good.
So I'll throw a couple links to some,like some of the books that help me
understand the role of an engineeringmanager and engineering leader.
Like manager's path from Camille, er,resilient Management, Laura Hogan.
Those are both excellent.
If you have any interestin being a manager or in
leadership, buy those books.
Read them.
Even if you don't, you'll atleast understand the role.
(36:09):
Like you'll understand whatyour boss is doing, what they're
supposed to be doing, what yourdirector is supposed to be doing.
Like manager's path talks about thewhole stick up to CTO vp, it's I didn't
really know what a VP did until I was adirector and I interacted with the vp.
Now I know.
Okay.
But just going through thatbook just under kinda helps you
understand what people above your.
(36:31):
Trying to solve so you can help
them do their thing.
Make yourself look good.
Everybody wins.
Leo Dion (host) (36:37):
Jaim, thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you for being my Guinea pig.
First episode in the new house.
We learned the importance of directlyhooking up a webcam to a Mac studio
instead of going through a hub.
So that's been fantastic.
We've been good for the last half hour.
Jaim, where couldpeople find you online?
Jaim Zuber (guest) (36:56):
So Jaim er.com is where I'm doing most of my writing.
I'm on, I'm My Mastodon.
That's really the onlyplace I really post.
You can find me there.
I'll put a link in the notes.
Leo Dion (host) (37:07):
Awesome people should check out our latest newsletters.
I just posted newsletter 1 0 1 onmy experience at Server Side Swift.
Check that out.
Check out my link to my talk Idid in London, which was awesome.
It was great to see everybody there,Aaron, and talk about fitness working
out in server side, swift and gb.
So a lot of great forthe latest newsletter.
(37:29):
Check that out.
If you have any more questionsabout resumes, hiring, any of that
stuff, reach out to me on Twitteror email or whatever you have.
Twitter at Leo Dion and MAsit on at Leo Dion at c Im
bright digit.com is my website.
Thank you so much for joiningme, and I look forward to talking
(37:50):
to you in the next episode.
Bye everybody.
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