June 9, 2025 • 25 mins
Live from CommunityKit, Leo is joined by Matt Massicotte to discuss everything announced today at WWDC 2025.
Guest
Announcements
- BrightDigit #110 - WWDC 2025 = EmpowerApps 200th Episode + Bushel Sale! 🙌
- macOS Virtual Machine App for Developers - Bushel
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Credits
Music from https://filmmusic.io
"Blippy Trance" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com)
License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
- (00:00) - Keynote Highlights and Initial Reactions
- (12:06) - Exploring Machine Learning and App Intents
- (15:55) - Swift 6.2 and Concurrency Enhancements
- Edward Sanchez
- Steven Lipton
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to another episode, empower Apps.
I'm your host, Leo Dionhere live at Community Kit.
It's an exciting day.
Dub dc.
Also with me is Matt Mascot.
Matt, thank you so much for coming onthe show again in Live and in Person.
Thank you very much, Leo, for inviting me.
So we're gonna talk about the stuffthat was revealed today, we probably
(00:25):
haven't had a chance to open up Xcode,but before we do that, I'll let you
go ahead and introduce yourself.
Sure.
Thank you.
My name is Matt and, been along time Apple developer.
I have this like hyper-specializationnow working in swift concurrency,
but I still pay attention to lotsof other stuff that are going
on.
Awesome.
So yeah, what's your initialreaction from everything?
(00:47):
Okay, so I'm very interested inthe technical details and I was
hoping for Some more technical stuffgoing into the state of the Union.
And
so I wanna like now look more at the APIsand see what kind of stuff are actually
introduced.
Yeah, I think that's the same thinghere is it's, there's a lot of
fascinating stuff that we'll go overtoday, but I also think at the same
time, I really wanna get my hands dirtyand try it out with Xcode and stuff.
(01:09):
I'll just start off talking aboutsome of the stuff that I found
fascinating just from the keynote.
we got foundation models.
What's been heavily rumored and oneverybody's wishlist is we actually
have LLM models to work with and.
The apps in our app development,but also there's a lot of
stuff in Xcode that looks cool.
(01:30):
That might be useful.
Yeah, it looks like it supports avery live, interactive coding system,
which I think a lot of people enjoy.
Also, you can plug into other lms.
Which sounds really great.
As a fan of stuff like Cursor andClaude, I'm really looking forward
to playing around with that.
the intelligent shortcuts.
So have you worked with,app intents at all?
(01:50):
Only a little bit.
So that looks really interesting.
We've been hearing over the last few yearsguys, start implementing app intents.
Start implementing app intents.
And this feels like the firsttaste of this is why they've been
telling us to do that for so long.
And then the other thing thatwe've been wanting for the last,
15 years is Windows in iPad.
(02:14):
How excited are you about that?
I'm a very casual iPad user, butI know people are excited and I'm
excited too for them to get what they
want.
You're an iPad movie watcher, aren't you?
watcher.
I'm really interested in how likesharing drag and drop that kind of
like windowing is a good, very goodsolid step and I'm gonna install
it tonight probably and try it out.
(02:34):
But to me, like the interactionsbetween the, the different apps,
'cause we just have the sharesheet and we have drag and drop.
That to me is like the next step of,and seeing how well that works in this
new paradigm that we have with OSUI,
I think that Apple's clearlyexperimented a lot with user interface
paradigms with iPad os Over the years.
(02:56):
And I think that's great.
And it's also nice to see that after allthis different experimentation, they've
come back to something so familiar becauseit's totally possible if the o, it could
have gone the other way, that they hit onsomething very different that works well.
And maybe that came towardsthe Mac, for example.
I don't know how I. I dunno howelse they could possibly do it.
Like that's what I'm seeing is we seethis, we've seen other things, tried
(03:18):
stage manager, all that stuff, and atthe end of the day, yeah, that's what
they've come back to is windowing.
We have to talk about it.
I'm sorry, but what's beenrumored for the last few months?
The thing that's not Apple intelligenceand that is a new glass design.
What do you think?
I didn't get a good enough?
(03:38):
I feel like I need to actually use
it
To make a real, to have a real opinion
Yes, exactly.
there was a lot of motion effects that yousaw, and that's very interesting to me.
Many people have been worried aboutreadability and contrast and it looks
very justified with what we saw.
So I'm hoping that isn't as badas it looked like it could be.
Or at the very least, we have abunch of accessibility modifiers that
(04:00):
sure.
I'm
sure that will be there.
Are you gonna try andchime and see how it works?
Yeah, actually I'm very interestedin particular how it looks in
Mac Os and how it affects MAC OS
Yeah.
Yeah, same here.
So I recently, right before Ileft, I got a Mac Mini M four I.
Like another computer because Ineed another Mac for my CI stuff.
I think I'm gonna put, Tahoe,which is the new code name.
(04:23):
I'm gonna put it on there and test outmy apps on that and see how it works.
'cause I'm really curious.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So one thing I know besidesconcurrency that you're
enthusiastic about is, text kit.
Yes.
now we got all this new, attribute.
So they have all this new attributedstring stuff that's been added to Swift
Does that help you at all, or are youlike, no, this isn't, cut it for me.
(04:47):
My suspicion is that it will beabsolutely insufficient for editing
large documents or doing sophisticatedmore than just having like basic,
user input and changing a string.
Okay.
it'll support anything like that
Okay.
there was a bunch of new APIs thatlooked like they added, at least
on the iOS end for maybe not textediting, but just being able to build.
(05:10):
I know it'll be interestingto see, once we play around
with it and see what we get,
and I know many people have the needfor a rich text editing experience,
Does it, is it enough for them?
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Let's get into, unless therewas something else you wanted
to mention about the keynote.
I just had stuff about CarPlay,which I'm a big fan of CarPlay.
I love it.
Yeah, and it sounds likeit got a lot of attention.
(05:31):
We've been hearing a lot aboutCarPlay Ultra on some of the models.
Renting vehicles.
I miss CarPlay, I can tell you that.
And, it was cool to see, it looked likeit was the interface that they were
demoing, by the way, looked exactlylike the interface on our Ford, transit.
Oh, okay.
So I was like, I recognize that,that looks like my, mini bus
Widgets on a CarPlay.
That sounds awesome.
I wanna, I definitely, it's on mybucket list to play around with CarPlay.
(05:54):
I have a lot of good ideas.
Hold assist.
Looks really great.
Finally.
I'm glad to
see
I missed that.
What is this?
Okay, so when you're on hold, itcan either detect, hold music or
something, but basically it can,it will let you know when you're on
hold and somebody finally picks up.
(06:15):
There's like a new wrist flick,interaction on the watch, which
I love because I don't alwayshave two hands available to me.
Yeah, that's cool.
And I am looking forward with tryingout the iPhone karaoke, feature in
TVOS, especially with the kiddos.
So we'll see how that works out.
Okay, so State of the Union.
(06:35):
Anything you wanted to talkabout the state of union or
should I just go through my list?
Go through your list.
I'm sure we can pick up stuff.
Okay.
About the glass design, we have,the colors informed by the context.
It's curved with the display.
A lot of mentions about that.
Absolutely.
constancy, is that the word constancy?
They used that word quite a bit.
didn't notice that
Okay.
(06:55):
That was weird.
It automatically updates with recompile.
Okay.
Here's a question.
Is this, was there something through thisnew glass design that they are trying to
hint at possible new models of the iPhone?
Okay.
I'm gonna wait.
I wanna put that questionon hold for one second.
I want to call out something else thatyou just said, which was you have to
(07:18):
recompile to get to pick up these changes.
And I, that was interesting to mebecause presumably the reason they're
doing that is they're putting thischeck in to make sure that you have
at least built through app oncethey're not opting existing apps in.
So I think if you have an appthat you don't update, it will not
receive these new UI treatment.
Yeah.
It
does.
Has that always been the case?
(07:38):
That kind of thing hashappened frequently.
That makes total sense.
it's a little bit, it reminds meof the initial iPad where those
iPhone apps were running in like
that
that tiny window mode.
Yes.
There's
Absolutely.
Was it Instagram?
Instagram doesn't do that anymoreas of a few months ago, so thank you
A Few months ago.
they just released an iPad app.
Yeah, future iPhones.
What do you think?
(07:59):
Is there something about this,it's oh yeah, this will work great.
Foldable iPhones, or this will be like,
that's an interesting question
because I'm looking out for hints of that.
I don't know.
The iPad changes are veryinteresting because they feel like
they had to take a lot of screensize considerations into account.
an iPad mini
oh my gosh.
Yeah.
No, a mini, from my understandingis just a scale down iPad.
(08:22):
it's actually scaled down
everything.
everything looks the
same
Okay.
I didn't see anything that stuck out tome, especially in terms of the UI hinting
at New Hardware, but I could believe
it.
One of the things we talked aboutPeter and I on the last episode was
like, are they trying to do somethingwith this, the crease that's gonna be
the inevitable problem with foldableiPhones, and is this glass design and
(08:46):
the curve display and all this stuff,is that a way of them trying to address
it in a way Dynamic Island Wood, or,the front display on the, vision Pro?
They each address certainlimitations of the hardware.
Okay.
This is a stretch, but imagine youhave this phone that has a little
bit of visual distortion, a display,sorry, that has a little bit of
visual distortion right in the middle.
Okay.
treatments, right?
(09:06):
potentially incorporate that deficiencyinto the user interface to make it look
less like a mistake and more like a part,
an intentional thing.
Would it be like a book asopposed to a single display?
Yeah, maybe like a
book.
There you go, apple.
You got it, you got the idea.
Now go with it.
I like that.
I like that a lot.
I think that's pretty good.
(09:27):
Anything else about the design?
I think we've talked about itin the earlier piece, Anything
else you wanna cover with it?
I don't have a lot untilI actually try it out.
I'm very interested in how itlooks on the Mac in particular.
I like very minimalistic interfaces ingeneral and it looked to me, from what
Xcode certainly seems like it adopted thisnew stuff and it was a much more minimal
looking interface, but it's hard to geta feel for it until you try it yourself.
(09:48):
So good segue, let's talk about Xcode.
Did you see the thing thateverybody loves about the new Xcode?
What was the thing everybody
loved?
settings.
because they adopted the samesettings, layout as system
settings.
I did notice this.
How do you feel about that?
Xcode has less settings than the system,so I think it could potentially work well.
What do you think about it.
(10:09):
I. I don't hate system settings asmuch as most people, but I sympathize
with folks who don't like it.
Having said that, I usually can findwhat I'm looking for because there's a
spotlight search function at the top.
Yes.
That'll take me where I want to go.
separate things you don't like thatpeople usually don't like about settings.
Yes.
The actual setting.
the search works well.
the toggles
They're just, they have alot of strange behaviors.
(10:31):
So I guess X code could bring thatalong too, but I bet you it doesn't.
So let's get into Xcode.
Xcode has, we can nowhook up into LLM models.
Huge focus on that.
There's this new, one thing I wrotedown was a new playground macro, which
might make it easier to do quickly.
Test code, very interesting playaround and playgrounds is like
specifically mentioned as a great usecase to play around with alls, which
(10:53):
I find really fascinating and I'mlooking forward to trying that out.
I don't know about how fixing code,especially Matt, for you fixing code
that is not concurrency set up correctlyif the LMS are gonna do a great job
So when they showed this UI, itreminded me a lot of the rename feature,
Concept, but I have had verypoor luck with this working
correctly.
(11:13):
Now that's a little different becausethat is intended to be a precision tool
that works 100% correctly or not at
And
that's
This is not that way.
So it might not be subject to thesame problems, but it certainly
made me hesitate when I saw it.
Not until we try it out.
Yeah.
I don't know.
There was such a big focus on that.
I was interested in the UI changes.
That was definitely somethingI wanted to check out.
Yeah.
There was a big focuson the LLM integration.
(11:37):
People seemed excited about
It
Yeah.
By the way, I finallyfigured out how to get.
The Mac OS 26, VM to work.
It gives you an installation errorin bushel if you have to install
X code 26 to get the VM to work.
Interesting.
that's possible.
There's all kinds of things thatI'm sure are broken or incorrect
(11:57):
in the first betas that will.
You shouldn't put iton your primary phone.
Yeah.
It's almost worth lettingmy phone crash for that.
Okay, let's talk about, so machinelearning, was there anything in
there that you were interested in?
The impression that I got fromthem was that they really thought
about what people are looking forout of these tools and ways to give
(12:20):
them, really easy to integrate.
Systems into their
code
and that whole thing there was likeall, it looks like it was macro
supported or something along thoselines to be able to define very like
they're using actual swift types thatyou can put in and get out again.
And I think that will be veryappreciated by many people.
There's this like generative macro thatI saw, which sounds really interesting.
(12:43):
Not only have they been emphasizingthe use of app intense in our apps,
but they've made it easier I feellike this year to do that as well.
And it definitely feels likeguys really get on the page,
like start getting app intense sothat your stuff is discoverable.
I didn't, and especially
the big emphasis on the new spotlight.
So this is a macros thing,
I think that might have beentrue on the phone as well,
(13:04):
right?
Sorry.
That is true on the phone.
Yeah, you're right.
But it seems yeah, like they're makingit easier and they're trying to continue
to emphasize the use of, app intenseand generative and that kind of stuff.
And shortcuts.
Shortcuts too.
Looks amazing what you can do on MacOs, with app intents and shortcuts
and the Mach machine learningtype stuff you can do in there.
(13:24):
So I'm excited to try that out.
Absolutely.
I haven't played enough with Appinintents to have a really good
opinion on this, but if you'reexcited, then I'm excited about it,
I don't have a use caseoff the top of my head.
I will have a use case, I'm sureonce I've done app intense before
and it's absolutely fascinating whatyou could do with it, but there's
just so much potential and I thinkthat's what I'm excited about.
I. wanna skip the swift stuffbecause that'll be the stuff
(13:47):
we'll really deep dive into.
Sure.
So we got 3D charts,which looked really cool.
You can do 3D graphing, idleprefetch for better lists.
Oh yeah.
they really focused on that.
Yeah, that was interesting.
Specifically Mac os
I think it's received a lot of criticismbecause I have certainly spent time
working on list performance on the
Mac.
it isn't necessarily a straightforwardthing, so I think it's received a
(14:09):
lot of criticism and that's why I,
is it just not do very well, or isit hard to play around with or what,
because to me, like the list challengewas always because iOS devices are,
they're just constrained onmemory by far compared to Mac os.
So I always thought MacOS wasn't a big deal.
Am I totally incorrect in that?
(14:31):
No,
no, you're right that the Mac has accessto more memory in general, but I don't
think that's typically the problem.
Okay.
And I think that in comparison toiOS, for example, which I have done
the last work on, but in the Mac,there's many performance pitfalls.
Okay.
That's good to know.
I don't do gaming.
Yeah.
I don't think that manypeople will either,
Have they done less gamedemos now that they prerecord
(14:53):
this?
That's an interesting question.
do, Cyberpunk, they did that and they didsome other game, but it was pretty brief.
they have done too much of an emphasison demos and not enough of an emphasis
on, here are the things we are buildingthat are nice for game developers.
It's a developer conferenceand I like to focus on that.
I think they felt, you know what it is.
Switch two came out last week andthey're like, yeah, we shouldn't
try to like one up Nintendo Uhhuh.
(15:15):
So let's keep it, let's keep it slim.
But yeah, they did do a lot as faras game development was concerned.
The new gaming stuff does sound ifI was a gamer or game developer, it
does sound cool, what you could do.
So we'll see how that goes.
Vision os we have better anchoring.
I'm really, we're not, wehave to go to the other room
if we wanna talk about that.
But, yeah, vision os it definitelyseems like they're still building stuff
(15:38):
for it, so we'll see how that goes.
Alright.
Let's get into
but if I'm not wrong though, therewasn't a major focus on a new version of
Vision Os it seemed like minor changes.
Is that your impression?
I don't know because Ihaven't done any vision, Wes.
Okay.
it didn't feel like there's anymajor changes that are coming.
Yeah.
So swift big changes.
(15:59):
We see continuing maturity of concurrency.
Oh yeah.
And yeah.
What's your thoughts on where Swift 6.2is as far as concurrency is concerned?
If you go back to last year, so 6.0.
I was convinced that the team wasgonna release 6.0 and at the same time,
they were also going to do all thework to at the very least have correct
(16:23):
annotations for all of Apple's own SDKs.
This was my assumption.
And that did not happen.
6.0 was a very big release and itcame with it quite a lot of bugs.
So then we have 6.1, whichcame afterwards, and that fixed
a tremendous amount of bugs.
And actually also along that way therehave been a number of Excode releases.
Those have also begun to iterativelyinclude more annotations in the SDK.
(16:44):
Very welcome stuff.
brings along some major changes,but major not in terms of the
language functioning differently.
It does in a few ways, but mostlyit's major changes to give you
tools to be able to ease migrationinto this new language mode.
What I haven't been able to figureout, and it doesn't seem like
anybody has talked about anything,is changes to annotations for SDKs.
(17:04):
Like one thing I looked at, for example,a library that I have had very little
experience using, but a lot of experiencehelping people with is AV foundation.
Okay.
AV foundation is quite hardto use with concurrency.
It's just, it's very dispatch focusedand is missing a lot of annotations, for
Okay.
And as
so far, there are a lot of new things init, but I don't think there's anything
(17:24):
related to concurrency that has changed.
I looked at virtualization andyeah, it doesn't look like.
now, it's still that beta one.
So there still is room for these things to
change,
let's you know what happens.
happens.
It happens.
Okay.
If you
there's, there is still, Idon't think there's zero hope.
But I was a little bit disappointedthat there wasn't more emphasis there.
Yeah.
However, I will say there was an importantcompiler change that deemphasizes the
(17:46):
need for some of these annotations
You wanna go?
No, so specifically they changed therules around importing objective C
code.
Okay, go ahead.
When
import objective C code.
Yeah.
I'm all ready to do this'cause it's part of my talk.
When you import objective Ccode, if you look at a function,
parameter, for example, thecompiler assumes that it's escaping.
Okay?
And then you can tell it in objective COh, actually this is a non escaping thing.
(18:09):
So that's a very conservativeassumption that it
makes.
so the, okay
You follow what I'm saying?
It looks at, so you
a keyword?
You have to add these annotations.
'cause objective seed doesn'tneed this information at all.
This is only for
it, it assumes the worst case.
And then you put this special annotationto say, actually not escaping.
Okay.
But for sendible, which ismuch more important and more
consequential if you get it wrong.
(18:31):
It assumes non sendible.
Okay.
Which is, it makes it easier in somecases to use, but if it's wrong, the
consequences are really terrible.
So now if it can determine this isa completion handler, it will assume
sendible, which will result in morewarnings, but also it's way more safer.
It's a much more conservative
Okay.
And I like this
Yeah.
That sounds really cool.
(18:51):
This will actually helpwith AV foundation.
I was just complaining about it,but it will make things better.
Okay.
Yeah, it's really great thatthey've continued to make
objective C friendlier for Swift.
just annotating the codewith more information.
It's not enforced, but
I don't actually think this kind ofstuff, I don't think the objective
c compiler makes use of this at all.
(19:12):
Exactly.
It's like it doesn't care, but Swift will.
Yep.
The one thing I want to talk about.
So we finally have, what'sbasically, static sized
Oh, yes.
my understanding was this was usefulin the embedded space, but it sounds
like it's also gonna be prettyuseful, in the server side space
as well and in a few other places.
(19:34):
My guess would be that it'suseful in any context where you're
dealing with known fixed size data.
I think it will be a performance.
How much of a performance winit is, depends on the situation,
Why didn't they havethis in the first place?
I don't have a good answer for that.
my understanding is that there weresome changes, like this ability
to put an integer as a generic
That is crazy.
(19:55):
That looks
They probably had to, and I don't reallyknow how that works exactly, but I suspect
that had a lot, there was a lot of typesystem work, and you can see this kind of
trend happens a lot in Swift where theyhave some end goal that's quite far away.
And they make a lot of changes along theway to be able to finally implement that
And I think this is one of those examples
DS sells for.
Swift ui, like they had to do alot of things to get to that point.
(20:17):
ui,
Now, what is the difference?
So what is the difference betweenspan an unsafe pointer and how
does this affect objective C code?
I wish I had a good answerfor you, but unfortunately I
have been ignoring that area.
But you can get the right idea, evenjust by looking at the example that was
presented during the State of the Union.
they have, there are many existing SWIFTAPIs for interacting with pointers and
(20:38):
interacting with buffers of values.
And they're pretty unwieldy andit can be quite difficult to get
Right.
variations, like subtle
variations,
and I think this is just anotherway to provide a mechanism where the
compiler and type system can understandthe underlying data so that they can
provide a safer API, but also it lookedlike a much, more concise API as well.
One of the things about SWIFT in theearly days was how all of a sudden
(21:03):
we didn't have to deal with pointers.
This looks like a, basically a friendlierway to do pointers, especially since now,
since there's interrupt with c plus anda few other languages that use pointers.
This is what it seems like it's intended
Yeah, I, now that you're sayingthis, I'm interested too, because
there are many objective C APIsthat actually use pointers as well.
And I'm curious if they have incorporatedthe SPAN stuff or fixed size arrays
(21:26):
into any of their own, like bridged
I predict no,
happens based on previous results.
Yes, that's what I'm seeing.
a number of years ago there was thissystem introduced called Extension Kit.
Yes, it was introduced on the Mac.
You talked about it.
I really?
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was introduced for the Macand then, maybe bits and pieces
were a little bit available iniOS, but it was non-functional.
(21:46):
Then the next year of big portions wereintroduced for iOS, but not the core bit.
You need to actually make itwork, which is very suspicious.
Yeah,
that is really
Yeah, and I just assumed, oh, somethinghad gone wrong and I predicted the next
year it would show up, which it did not.
Okay.
Okay.
then the year after that,it also did not show up,
It showed
Yes, it did.
That is awesome.
(22:07):
I haven't actually played with it, butit certainly looks like it's functional.
Okay.
You'll have to come back and report that
Yeah, I'm very interested
Yeah.
I think it's
a lot.
that's it.
We'll be playing around with thisand I will be reporting back.
I'm sure we'll have some more guests onthe show when I get back to Michigan.
Thank you so much, Matt,for joining me for this.
It was wonderful.
Where could people find you online?
you can find me@maico.org,
(22:28):
And if you're looking for helpwith Swift 6.2 and concurrency,
definitely check out his website.
It's excellent source for that.
Thank you so much for joining me.
If you wanna try out Mac Os.
26 and you don't wanna break your laptop.
Definitely check out Bushel.
It's on sale.
Pro subscription.
Make sure you install Xco 26 though.
But you can definitelyplay around with it, there.
(22:49):
Thank you so much for joining mefor today's episode, and I will
talk to you when I get back home.
Bye everyone.
Welcome to another episode, empower Apps.
I'm your host, Leo Dionhere live at Community Kit.
It's an exciting day.
Dub dc.
Also with me is Matt Mascot.
Matt, thank you so much for coming onthe show again in Live and in Person.
Thank you very much, Leo, for inviting me.
So we're gonna talk about the stuffthat was revealed today, we probably
(00:25):
haven't had a chance to open up Xcode,but before we do that, I'll let you
go ahead and introduce yourself.
Sure.
Thank you.
My name is Matt and, been along time Apple developer.
I have this like hyper-specializationnow working in swift concurrency,
but I still pay attention to lotsof other stuff that are going
on.
Awesome.
So yeah, what's your initialreaction from everything?
(00:47):
Okay, so I'm very interested inthe technical details and I was
hoping for Some more technical stuffgoing into the state of the Union.
And
so I wanna like now look more at the APIsand see what kind of stuff are actually
introduced.
Yeah, I think that's the same thinghere is it's, there's a lot of
fascinating stuff that we'll go overtoday, but I also think at the same
time, I really wanna get my hands dirtyand try it out with Xcode and stuff.
(01:09):
I'll just start off talking aboutsome of the stuff that I found
fascinating just from the keynote.
we got foundation models.
What's been heavily rumored and oneverybody's wishlist is we actually
have LLM models to work with and.
The apps in our app development,but also there's a lot of
stuff in Xcode that looks cool.
(01:30):
That might be useful.
Yeah, it looks like it supports avery live, interactive coding system,
which I think a lot of people enjoy.
Also, you can plug into other lms.
Which sounds really great.
As a fan of stuff like Cursor andClaude, I'm really looking forward
to playing around with that.
the intelligent shortcuts.
So have you worked with,app intents at all?
(01:50):
Only a little bit.
So that looks really interesting.
We've been hearing over the last few yearsguys, start implementing app intents.
Start implementing app intents.
And this feels like the firsttaste of this is why they've been
telling us to do that for so long.
And then the other thing thatwe've been wanting for the last,
15 years is Windows in iPad.
(02:14):
How excited are you about that?
I'm a very casual iPad user, butI know people are excited and I'm
excited too for them to get what they
want.
You're an iPad movie watcher, aren't you?
watcher.
I'm really interested in how likesharing drag and drop that kind of
like windowing is a good, very goodsolid step and I'm gonna install
it tonight probably and try it out.
(02:34):
But to me, like the interactionsbetween the, the different apps,
'cause we just have the sharesheet and we have drag and drop.
That to me is like the next step of,and seeing how well that works in this
new paradigm that we have with OSUI,
I think that Apple's clearlyexperimented a lot with user interface
paradigms with iPad os Over the years.
(02:56):
And I think that's great.
And it's also nice to see that after allthis different experimentation, they've
come back to something so familiar becauseit's totally possible if the o, it could
have gone the other way, that they hit onsomething very different that works well.
And maybe that came towardsthe Mac, for example.
I don't know how I. I dunno howelse they could possibly do it.
Like that's what I'm seeing is we seethis, we've seen other things, tried
(03:18):
stage manager, all that stuff, and atthe end of the day, yeah, that's what
they've come back to is windowing.
We have to talk about it.
I'm sorry, but what's beenrumored for the last few months?
The thing that's not Apple intelligenceand that is a new glass design.
What do you think?
I didn't get a good enough?
(03:38):
I feel like I need to actually use
it
To make a real, to have a real opinion
Yes, exactly.
there was a lot of motion effects that yousaw, and that's very interesting to me.
Many people have been worried aboutreadability and contrast and it looks
very justified with what we saw.
So I'm hoping that isn't as badas it looked like it could be.
Or at the very least, we have abunch of accessibility modifiers that
(04:00):
sure.
I'm
sure that will be there.
Are you gonna try andchime and see how it works?
Yeah, actually I'm very interestedin particular how it looks in
Mac Os and how it affects MAC OS
Yeah.
Yeah, same here.
So I recently, right before Ileft, I got a Mac Mini M four I.
Like another computer because Ineed another Mac for my CI stuff.
I think I'm gonna put, Tahoe,which is the new code name.
(04:23):
I'm gonna put it on there and test outmy apps on that and see how it works.
'cause I'm really curious.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So one thing I know besidesconcurrency that you're
enthusiastic about is, text kit.
Yes.
now we got all this new, attribute.
So they have all this new attributedstring stuff that's been added to Swift
Does that help you at all, or are youlike, no, this isn't, cut it for me.
(04:47):
My suspicion is that it will beabsolutely insufficient for editing
large documents or doing sophisticatedmore than just having like basic,
user input and changing a string.
Okay.
it'll support anything like that
Okay.
there was a bunch of new APIs thatlooked like they added, at least
on the iOS end for maybe not textediting, but just being able to build.
(05:10):
I know it'll be interestingto see, once we play around
with it and see what we get,
and I know many people have the needfor a rich text editing experience,
Does it, is it enough for them?
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Let's get into, unless therewas something else you wanted
to mention about the keynote.
I just had stuff about CarPlay,which I'm a big fan of CarPlay.
I love it.
Yeah, and it sounds likeit got a lot of attention.
(05:31):
We've been hearing a lot aboutCarPlay Ultra on some of the models.
Renting vehicles.
I miss CarPlay, I can tell you that.
And, it was cool to see, it looked likeit was the interface that they were
demoing, by the way, looked exactlylike the interface on our Ford, transit.
Oh, okay.
So I was like, I recognize that,that looks like my, mini bus
Widgets on a CarPlay.
That sounds awesome.
I wanna, I definitely, it's on mybucket list to play around with CarPlay.
(05:54):
I have a lot of good ideas.
Hold assist.
Looks really great.
Finally.
I'm glad to
see
I missed that.
What is this?
Okay, so when you're on hold, itcan either detect, hold music or
something, but basically it can,it will let you know when you're on
hold and somebody finally picks up.
(06:15):
There's like a new wrist flick,interaction on the watch, which
I love because I don't alwayshave two hands available to me.
Yeah, that's cool.
And I am looking forward with tryingout the iPhone karaoke, feature in
TVOS, especially with the kiddos.
So we'll see how that works out.
Okay, so State of the Union.
(06:35):
Anything you wanted to talkabout the state of union or
should I just go through my list?
Go through your list.
I'm sure we can pick up stuff.
Okay.
About the glass design, we have,the colors informed by the context.
It's curved with the display.
A lot of mentions about that.
Absolutely.
constancy, is that the word constancy?
They used that word quite a bit.
didn't notice that
Okay.
(06:55):
That was weird.
It automatically updates with recompile.
Okay.
Here's a question.
Is this, was there something through thisnew glass design that they are trying to
hint at possible new models of the iPhone?
Okay.
I'm gonna wait.
I wanna put that questionon hold for one second.
I want to call out something else thatyou just said, which was you have to
(07:18):
recompile to get to pick up these changes.
And I, that was interesting to mebecause presumably the reason they're
doing that is they're putting thischeck in to make sure that you have
at least built through app oncethey're not opting existing apps in.
So I think if you have an appthat you don't update, it will not
receive these new UI treatment.
Yeah.
It
does.
Has that always been the case?
(07:38):
That kind of thing hashappened frequently.
That makes total sense.
it's a little bit, it reminds meof the initial iPad where those
iPhone apps were running in like
that
that tiny window mode.
Yes.
There's
Absolutely.
Was it Instagram?
Instagram doesn't do that anymoreas of a few months ago, so thank you
A Few months ago.
they just released an iPad app.
Yeah, future iPhones.
What do you think?
(07:59):
Is there something about this,it's oh yeah, this will work great.
Foldable iPhones, or this will be like,
that's an interesting question
because I'm looking out for hints of that.
I don't know.
The iPad changes are veryinteresting because they feel like
they had to take a lot of screensize considerations into account.
an iPad mini
oh my gosh.
Yeah.
No, a mini, from my understandingis just a scale down iPad.
(08:22):
it's actually scaled down
everything.
everything looks the
same
Okay.
I didn't see anything that stuck out tome, especially in terms of the UI hinting
at New Hardware, but I could believe
it.
One of the things we talked aboutPeter and I on the last episode was
like, are they trying to do somethingwith this, the crease that's gonna be
the inevitable problem with foldableiPhones, and is this glass design and
(08:46):
the curve display and all this stuff,is that a way of them trying to address
it in a way Dynamic Island Wood, or,the front display on the, vision Pro?
They each address certainlimitations of the hardware.
Okay.
This is a stretch, but imagine youhave this phone that has a little
bit of visual distortion, a display,sorry, that has a little bit of
visual distortion right in the middle.
Okay.
treatments, right?
(09:06):
potentially incorporate that deficiencyinto the user interface to make it look
less like a mistake and more like a part,
an intentional thing.
Would it be like a book asopposed to a single display?
Yeah, maybe like a
book.
There you go, apple.
You got it, you got the idea.
Now go with it.
I like that.
I like that a lot.
I think that's pretty good.
(09:27):
Anything else about the design?
I think we've talked about itin the earlier piece, Anything
else you wanna cover with it?
I don't have a lot untilI actually try it out.
I'm very interested in how itlooks on the Mac in particular.
I like very minimalistic interfaces ingeneral and it looked to me, from what
Xcode certainly seems like it adopted thisnew stuff and it was a much more minimal
looking interface, but it's hard to geta feel for it until you try it yourself.
(09:48):
So good segue, let's talk about Xcode.
Did you see the thing thateverybody loves about the new Xcode?
What was the thing everybody
loved?
settings.
because they adopted the samesettings, layout as system
settings.
I did notice this.
How do you feel about that?
Xcode has less settings than the system,so I think it could potentially work well.
What do you think about it.
(10:09):
I. I don't hate system settings asmuch as most people, but I sympathize
with folks who don't like it.
Having said that, I usually can findwhat I'm looking for because there's a
spotlight search function at the top.
Yes.
That'll take me where I want to go.
separate things you don't like thatpeople usually don't like about settings.
Yes.
The actual setting.
the search works well.
the toggles
They're just, they have alot of strange behaviors.
(10:31):
So I guess X code could bring thatalong too, but I bet you it doesn't.
So let's get into Xcode.
Xcode has, we can nowhook up into LLM models.
Huge focus on that.
There's this new, one thing I wrotedown was a new playground macro, which
might make it easier to do quickly.
Test code, very interesting playaround and playgrounds is like
specifically mentioned as a great usecase to play around with alls, which
(10:53):
I find really fascinating and I'mlooking forward to trying that out.
I don't know about how fixing code,especially Matt, for you fixing code
that is not concurrency set up correctlyif the LMS are gonna do a great job
So when they showed this UI, itreminded me a lot of the rename feature,
Concept, but I have had verypoor luck with this working
correctly.
(11:13):
Now that's a little different becausethat is intended to be a precision tool
that works 100% correctly or not at
And
that's
This is not that way.
So it might not be subject to thesame problems, but it certainly
made me hesitate when I saw it.
Not until we try it out.
Yeah.
I don't know.
There was such a big focus on that.
I was interested in the UI changes.
That was definitely somethingI wanted to check out.
Yeah.
There was a big focuson the LLM integration.
(11:37):
People seemed excited about
It
Yeah.
By the way, I finallyfigured out how to get.
The Mac OS 26, VM to work.
It gives you an installation errorin bushel if you have to install
X code 26 to get the VM to work.
Interesting.
that's possible.
There's all kinds of things thatI'm sure are broken or incorrect
(11:57):
in the first betas that will.
You shouldn't put iton your primary phone.
Yeah.
It's almost worth lettingmy phone crash for that.
Okay, let's talk about, so machinelearning, was there anything in
there that you were interested in?
The impression that I got fromthem was that they really thought
about what people are looking forout of these tools and ways to give
(12:20):
them, really easy to integrate.
Systems into their
code
and that whole thing there was likeall, it looks like it was macro
supported or something along thoselines to be able to define very like
they're using actual swift types thatyou can put in and get out again.
And I think that will be veryappreciated by many people.
There's this like generative macro thatI saw, which sounds really interesting.
(12:43):
Not only have they been emphasizingthe use of app intense in our apps,
but they've made it easier I feellike this year to do that as well.
And it definitely feels likeguys really get on the page,
like start getting app intense sothat your stuff is discoverable.
I didn't, and especially
the big emphasis on the new spotlight.
So this is a macros thing,
I think that might have beentrue on the phone as well,
(13:04):
right?
Sorry.
That is true on the phone.
Yeah, you're right.
But it seems yeah, like they're makingit easier and they're trying to continue
to emphasize the use of, app intenseand generative and that kind of stuff.
And shortcuts.
Shortcuts too.
Looks amazing what you can do on MacOs, with app intents and shortcuts
and the Mach machine learningtype stuff you can do in there.
(13:24):
So I'm excited to try that out.
Absolutely.
I haven't played enough with Appinintents to have a really good
opinion on this, but if you'reexcited, then I'm excited about it,
I don't have a use caseoff the top of my head.
I will have a use case, I'm sureonce I've done app intense before
and it's absolutely fascinating whatyou could do with it, but there's
just so much potential and I thinkthat's what I'm excited about.
I. wanna skip the swift stuffbecause that'll be the stuff
(13:47):
we'll really deep dive into.
Sure.
So we got 3D charts,which looked really cool.
You can do 3D graphing, idleprefetch for better lists.
Oh yeah.
they really focused on that.
Yeah, that was interesting.
Specifically Mac os
I think it's received a lot of criticismbecause I have certainly spent time
working on list performance on the
Mac.
it isn't necessarily a straightforwardthing, so I think it's received a
(14:09):
lot of criticism and that's why I,
is it just not do very well, or isit hard to play around with or what,
because to me, like the list challengewas always because iOS devices are,
they're just constrained onmemory by far compared to Mac os.
So I always thought MacOS wasn't a big deal.
Am I totally incorrect in that?
(14:31):
No,
no, you're right that the Mac has accessto more memory in general, but I don't
think that's typically the problem.
Okay.
And I think that in comparison toiOS, for example, which I have done
the last work on, but in the Mac,there's many performance pitfalls.
Okay.
That's good to know.
I don't do gaming.
Yeah.
I don't think that manypeople will either,
Have they done less gamedemos now that they prerecord
(14:53):
this?
That's an interesting question.
do, Cyberpunk, they did that and they didsome other game, but it was pretty brief.
they have done too much of an emphasison demos and not enough of an emphasis
on, here are the things we are buildingthat are nice for game developers.
It's a developer conferenceand I like to focus on that.
I think they felt, you know what it is.
Switch two came out last week andthey're like, yeah, we shouldn't
try to like one up Nintendo Uhhuh.
(15:15):
So let's keep it, let's keep it slim.
But yeah, they did do a lot as faras game development was concerned.
The new gaming stuff does sound ifI was a gamer or game developer, it
does sound cool, what you could do.
So we'll see how that goes.
Vision os we have better anchoring.
I'm really, we're not, wehave to go to the other room
if we wanna talk about that.
But, yeah, vision os it definitelyseems like they're still building stuff
(15:38):
for it, so we'll see how that goes.
Alright.
Let's get into
but if I'm not wrong though, therewasn't a major focus on a new version of
Vision Os it seemed like minor changes.
Is that your impression?
I don't know because Ihaven't done any vision, Wes.
Okay.
it didn't feel like there's anymajor changes that are coming.
Yeah.
So swift big changes.
(15:59):
We see continuing maturity of concurrency.
Oh yeah.
And yeah.
What's your thoughts on where Swift 6.2is as far as concurrency is concerned?
If you go back to last year, so 6.0.
I was convinced that the team wasgonna release 6.0 and at the same time,
they were also going to do all thework to at the very least have correct
(16:23):
annotations for all of Apple's own SDKs.
This was my assumption.
And that did not happen.
6.0 was a very big release and itcame with it quite a lot of bugs.
So then we have 6.1, whichcame afterwards, and that fixed
a tremendous amount of bugs.
And actually also along that way therehave been a number of Excode releases.
Those have also begun to iterativelyinclude more annotations in the SDK.
(16:44):
Very welcome stuff.
brings along some major changes,but major not in terms of the
language functioning differently.
It does in a few ways, but mostlyit's major changes to give you
tools to be able to ease migrationinto this new language mode.
What I haven't been able to figureout, and it doesn't seem like
anybody has talked about anything,is changes to annotations for SDKs.
(17:04):
Like one thing I looked at, for example,a library that I have had very little
experience using, but a lot of experiencehelping people with is AV foundation.
Okay.
AV foundation is quite hardto use with concurrency.
It's just, it's very dispatch focusedand is missing a lot of annotations, for
Okay.
And as
so far, there are a lot of new things init, but I don't think there's anything
(17:24):
related to concurrency that has changed.
I looked at virtualization andyeah, it doesn't look like.
now, it's still that beta one.
So there still is room for these things to
change,
let's you know what happens.
happens.
It happens.
Okay.
If you
there's, there is still, Idon't think there's zero hope.
But I was a little bit disappointedthat there wasn't more emphasis there.
Yeah.
However, I will say there was an importantcompiler change that deemphasizes the
(17:46):
need for some of these annotations
You wanna go?
No, so specifically they changed therules around importing objective C
code.
Okay, go ahead.
When
import objective C code.
Yeah.
I'm all ready to do this'cause it's part of my talk.
When you import objective Ccode, if you look at a function,
parameter, for example, thecompiler assumes that it's escaping.
Okay?
And then you can tell it in objective COh, actually this is a non escaping thing.
(18:09):
So that's a very conservativeassumption that it
makes.
so the, okay
You follow what I'm saying?
It looks at, so you
a keyword?
You have to add these annotations.
'cause objective seed doesn'tneed this information at all.
This is only for
it, it assumes the worst case.
And then you put this special annotationto say, actually not escaping.
Okay.
But for sendible, which ismuch more important and more
consequential if you get it wrong.
(18:31):
It assumes non sendible.
Okay.
Which is, it makes it easier in somecases to use, but if it's wrong, the
consequences are really terrible.
So now if it can determine this isa completion handler, it will assume
sendible, which will result in morewarnings, but also it's way more safer.
It's a much more conservative
Okay.
And I like this
Yeah.
That sounds really cool.
(18:51):
This will actually helpwith AV foundation.
I was just complaining about it,but it will make things better.
Okay.
Yeah, it's really great thatthey've continued to make
objective C friendlier for Swift.
just annotating the codewith more information.
It's not enforced, but
I don't actually think this kind ofstuff, I don't think the objective
c compiler makes use of this at all.
(19:12):
Exactly.
It's like it doesn't care, but Swift will.
Yep.
The one thing I want to talk about.
So we finally have, what'sbasically, static sized
Oh, yes.
my understanding was this was usefulin the embedded space, but it sounds
like it's also gonna be prettyuseful, in the server side space
as well and in a few other places.
(19:34):
My guess would be that it'suseful in any context where you're
dealing with known fixed size data.
I think it will be a performance.
How much of a performance winit is, depends on the situation,
Why didn't they havethis in the first place?
I don't have a good answer for that.
my understanding is that there weresome changes, like this ability
to put an integer as a generic
That is crazy.
(19:55):
That looks
They probably had to, and I don't reallyknow how that works exactly, but I suspect
that had a lot, there was a lot of typesystem work, and you can see this kind of
trend happens a lot in Swift where theyhave some end goal that's quite far away.
And they make a lot of changes along theway to be able to finally implement that
And I think this is one of those examples
DS sells for.
Swift ui, like they had to do alot of things to get to that point.
(20:17):
ui,
Now, what is the difference?
So what is the difference betweenspan an unsafe pointer and how
does this affect objective C code?
I wish I had a good answerfor you, but unfortunately I
have been ignoring that area.
But you can get the right idea, evenjust by looking at the example that was
presented during the State of the Union.
they have, there are many existing SWIFTAPIs for interacting with pointers and
(20:38):
interacting with buffers of values.
And they're pretty unwieldy andit can be quite difficult to get
Right.
variations, like subtle
variations,
and I think this is just anotherway to provide a mechanism where the
compiler and type system can understandthe underlying data so that they can
provide a safer API, but also it lookedlike a much, more concise API as well.
One of the things about SWIFT in theearly days was how all of a sudden
(21:03):
we didn't have to deal with pointers.
This looks like a, basically a friendlierway to do pointers, especially since now,
since there's interrupt with c plus anda few other languages that use pointers.
This is what it seems like it's intended
Yeah, I, now that you're sayingthis, I'm interested too, because
there are many objective C APIsthat actually use pointers as well.
And I'm curious if they have incorporatedthe SPAN stuff or fixed size arrays
(21:26):
into any of their own, like bridged
I predict no,
happens based on previous results.
Yes, that's what I'm seeing.
a number of years ago there was thissystem introduced called Extension Kit.
Yes, it was introduced on the Mac.
You talked about it.
I really?
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was introduced for the Macand then, maybe bits and pieces
were a little bit available iniOS, but it was non-functional.
(21:46):
Then the next year of big portions wereintroduced for iOS, but not the core bit.
You need to actually make itwork, which is very suspicious.
Yeah,
that is really
Yeah, and I just assumed, oh, somethinghad gone wrong and I predicted the next
year it would show up, which it did not.
Okay.
Okay.
then the year after that,it also did not show up,
It showed
Yes, it did.
That is awesome.
(22:07):
I haven't actually played with it, butit certainly looks like it's functional.
Okay.
You'll have to come back and report that
Yeah, I'm very interested
Yeah.
I think it's
a lot.
that's it.
We'll be playing around with thisand I will be reporting back.
I'm sure we'll have some more guests onthe show when I get back to Michigan.
Thank you so much, Matt,for joining me for this.
It was wonderful.
Where could people find you online?
you can find me@maico.org,
(22:28):
And if you're looking for helpwith Swift 6.2 and concurrency,
definitely check out his website.
It's excellent source for that.
Thank you so much for joining me.
If you wanna try out Mac Os.
26 and you don't wanna break your laptop.
Definitely check out Bushel.
It's on sale.
Pro subscription.
Make sure you install Xco 26 though.
But you can definitelyplay around with it, there.
(22:49):
Thank you so much for joining mefor today's episode, and I will
talk to you when I get back home.
Bye everyone.
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